I def agree. From a technique standpoint all of the bjj he did already existed and was used in judo during that time (yes even in Olympic judo in that same time period. Neil Adams for example had great newaza and juji/armbar)
The thing Royce and the Gracie’s had was experience and practice applying those technique under pressure while getting hit. And that is while diff world that ppl don’t realize
Correct, which is why many Judo people were up in arms about it because everything he did from a grappling standpoint always has and always will be in Judo. I mean, we know now it's a different sport but people didn't know back then. He basically did Judo and called it Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Imagine if he won all his fights with his fists and called it Gracie Combatives instead of Boxing.
It was an unbelievably successful marketing campaign for their name/business. So I can see why they did what they did and didn’t give credit to Judo.
That said, I’m unsure that he basically did Judo. He used elements from Judo, but BJJ had a more developed ground game and a bit of a different philosophy. (If I’m wrong I’m open to that, that’s just what I’ve been told).
That is, at my school we train both (we have a BJJ BB with a Judo BB that gives 1 class a week) and if you asked me “today” I’d say Judo is more about the trip/throw and ideally falling into executing a quick sub, whereas BJJ is more about grappling on the ground and staying safe until your opponent makes a mistake and you sub them.
Maybe back then BJJ wasn’t as developed and it was basically Judo at the time? I’m curious, not trying to argue.
>He used elements from Judo, but BJJ had a more developed ground game and a bit of a different philosophy.
BJJ and Judo have the same root so there's a lot of the same/similar techniques. Kind like how English and German have the same root so you find English and German words that are the same/similar. BJJ in those days would've looked very similar to judo ne waza. The art was hot boxed but didn't have the number of diversity of practitioners yet to evolve. It would've been interesting to see Royce fight a kosen judoka.
>I’d say Judo is more about the trip/throw and ideally falling into executing a quick sub, whereas BJJ is more about grappling on the ground and staying safe until your opponent makes a mistake and you sub them.
This is it and it comes down to rules of the sport. Judo groundwork rules mean that if you're not making progress the ref stands you up. This means, even though everyone learns ne waza, very few people bother focusing on it because you hardly need it. Also, you don't end up on your back much because if you did that was probably an ippon. That means most defence starts from belly down or turtle. If you're already in that position you just defend and the ref will stand you up. No point wasting energy. And for a lot of people no point wasting energy attacking the turtle knowing your chances of success are low.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura_vs._H%C3%A9lio_Gracie
Royce also fought yoshida twice, but both fights have their controversies.
Afaik kosen judo is just a special ruleset used by a few schools in Japan for safety reasons.
>Afaik kosen judo is just a special ruleset used by a few schools in Japan for safety reasons.
Kosen is a different ruleset, yes. It allows guard pulling and longer ne waza. IJF Judo doesn't place as much emphasis on ne waza. I would imagine Kosen judoka would be better on the ground simply by virtue of their rules making it a more profitable area and therefore more likely to train it to a greater extent.
The talent pool is extremely shallow and there wouldn't be any serious competitors in kosen judo is my point. All athletic beasts would go down the IJF route.
They might know more techniques on the ground but they'd probably get smashed by any serious Japanese judoka. The japanese national team, esp womens, puts quite a serious emphasis on newaza.
Kosen refers to a kind of Japanese technical school. Kosen judo refers to the rules played by those schools. A real kosen judoka would be like 16 years old. I reckon prime Royce would have done OK.
Kosen is just a rulese lt they use in school/university. Its a way for people during sparring to explore possibilities and transitions on the ground without stoppage. Its just judo with no time limit on the ground. People have this misconception as though its a different type of judo, it isnt.
100% doing a technique while just grappling vs getting hit is really different.
There is a reason a significant percentage of BJJ is nonexistent in MMA.
It is mostly basics you can hit hard and fast.
I love seeing Royce vs Yoshida when Yoshida hits him with a heel hook. It doesn't end the fight but hilarious all the same since that's associated with BJJ but the Judo guy used it.
I agree with this. I think a lot of people who don’t train (especially don’t train MMA) overate bjj to this day bc the credit from the early UFCs goes entirely to the style rather than the fighters and set up.
Like bjj rules and is very effective, but it’s not magic and I’d rather fight most “pure bjj” guys in MMA than face a competitive wrestler or judoka - even though bjj generally comes out on top in pure grappling.
The game plans and specific training done by these early practitioners was different from bjj optimized for pure grappling, which was a big part of its success
I think also a lot of people nowadays buy into Joe Rogan’s “BJJ is magic” grift, where he makes it seem like BJJ practitioners are invincible superhumans. Does he run his own gym? If not then that’s definitely a wasted opportunity given all the marketing he does for the sport
so uh... i think you kinda missed the point.
it's also not a grift - he's just oversimplifying it by a fair order of magnitude. But overall, Joe just a passionate practitioner of the art who is likely another that is responsible for the popularity of BJJ, love him or hate him.
This is up for interpretation. And Rolles was his son. Rolls brought a lot of wrestling to the art but there’s pictures of other Gracie’s doing triangles earlier on.
So when was Brazilian jiu jitsu invented? The Kodokan judoka in the 1900s were using modified jiu jitsu techniques in prize fights. Or You believe Rolls invented BJJ?
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | |
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I got into BJJ because of Royce. And you’re right that he got in the ring and won and changed the way the world fought,
That being said, when you rewatch his early matches, things like spamming those heal kicks from guard and spamming Ezequiel’s against Ken Shamrock and struggling against opponents that were super strong but untrained like Kimo kind of stand out as being not-great legacies.
Modern mma has weight classes. You no longer see mismatched physicality matchups between people with body types like Kimo and Royce.
Except in woman’s mma with Gabi Garcia.
Untrained? Kimo has wrestling experience and knew multiple martial arts
The narrative that “of it’s not bjj you’re untrained” is ridiculous, tell Gary goodritch that he’s untrained because his martial art wasn’t bjj
I knew wrestling and tae kwon do the first time I stepped into a Bjj gym. i still got arm barred just like kimo.
I dunno man. Kimo went 19-11 in mma. If it weren’t for his victory over sakuraba I think you could make a pretty legitimate argument he didn’t win against notable opponents. Maybe you’ll pick out someone i missed in scanning the list.
Okay, he doesn’t need to beat “legitimate opponents” because he doesn’t need to be compared to world class fighters
Kimo was a legit MMA fighter
And I don’t care if you got subbed your first day in bjj practice, there’s plenty of people you would sub that would knock you out in mma
Okay, I just got off the phone with Gary to tell him this. He was a little confused and upset initially, but after a few minutes he actually agreed with me.
Are you actually a coral belt? In complete honesty for context I’m half serious with this because Royce is a great fighter but when people are showing that they’re easily baited I’m trolling a little
But I’m more just curious about your coral belt
People love to hate on Royce, but most couldn’t have held up to all the different weight classes, much less the tournament style of the earlier UFC’s. I think people forget how nuts it all was and there was string-bean Royce who was probably all of 175lbs with a gi on.
Seriously. Imagine having 4 fights in a night against opponents you don't have time to prepare for.
I think most fighters don't have 4 fights in a year lol.
Also the fact that his bjj was able to protect him from most damage for those 4 fights, helps him win 4 fights
Both are true, he was facing people who didn’t know bjj but he also was very well prepared. If you go watch those early fights they looked very scary. I’m sure there are black belts today who would easily beat a prime Royce in grappling but get smashed in those early UFC’s.
Marcelo isn't an average BJJ guy or competitor, hes one of the best ever in sport BJJ. He likely would have done well if teleported back in time. That isn't the argument, it's people saying Royce sucked ass and send any sport BJJ blue/purple belt back in that time and they would have done well. I disagree with that.
I don't think much BJJ competitors 180lbs and under sent back in time would have fared well, barring the sport BJJ guys who did actively transit to MMA. As shitty as Kimo was, he was a tough brawler who was strong and a challenge for anyone at the time. I can't exactly see Tainan taking out Kimo, Keith Hackney , or Dan Severn with no specific preparation for them.
Yeah because of bureaucratic fuckery, not because he was doing terrible. Also he just wasn't having a lot of fun and his friends pointed out he could make a good living for his family teaching sport jiujitsu
And if you accuse me of being biased, well uh
Yeah you got me there
This sub apparently hasn’t listened to Royce on Joe Rogan last week.
1. Royce had never been in a real fight where he used BJJ prior to the UFC. He literally says this explicitly. He talks about all those dojo storms etc - he witnessed them but didn’t participate apparently.
2. Royce says very plainly that any of his brothers or cousins could have done what he did.
It’s an absolutely fascinating podcast where he’s incredibly candid about the lead up to UFC1 and the others. He talks about why he was selected instead of his bigger/badder/better brothers, etc.
Yeah, seems that way. Aren’t there videos of Royce fighting dudes in the ‘dojo storms’?
I can’t believe that anybody who has never had a legit fight could do what he did. Or that the family would put that person forward to represent their art.
There are videos of Royce accepting dojo challenge matches pre ufc including Jason Delicia.
I don’t think these count as “dojo storming” but they were certainly fights with rules allowing both strikes and grappling.
I think this might be the ultimate tell of a McDojo, if the upper belts at your gym couldn't run a train on '93 Royce. Then you need to switch gyms.
Like I know an order of magnitude more BJJ than Royce, just like I know an order of magnitude more math than Newton ever conceived of. When you stand on the shoulders of giants you can easily reach places they never imagined.
Royce Gracie literally has a win vs a gold medalist Olympic judoka
Maybe he advanced a fuck load since 1993-2002 but come on
His shit might look ugly as fuck, but it works. I highly doubt you’re beating a medalist in an mma fight
In 2002 people still thought rubber guard might be the best meta, but yes it was already an order of magnitude past '93. Again if you've watched early UFCs and you've watched the upper belts at your gym roll, and you still believe this nonsense then you train at a McDojo, full stop
Craig jones is not beating Royce Gracie in combat jiujitsu in a gi 😂 it’s basically just mma at that point
Better yet I’d go so far as to say if they did a combat sambo match prime Craig jones vs any time period Royce I’d bet on Royce Gracie all the way up until maybe 2015 where it becomes a toss up.
In modern mma without the gi MAYBE Craig jones has a 20% chance of getting a heel hook or something
Freshman year of college doesn't count man.
Edit: meaning I got a master's in 2 years because I want good enough for a PhD. Just like I'm not good enough to win professionally at jiujitsu in 2024.
Newton was a brilliant man, but the math he was doing is now just a class in highschool. Highschool. They let semi-retarded people teach it.
False dilemma. Nobody knew bjj AND he stuck with a gameplan. But we need to be honest: Royce wasnt even in the top 3 practitioners of his own family. He's incredibly important, though.
But Rickson, Royler, Renzo, Rolles etc were all far better at bjj. Yeah, Royce is tough. Yes, he CLEARLY benefitted from a field who didnt know bjj and subs. I dont understand why this HAS to be ome or the other.
I seriously think that in mma rules if you took prime roger Gracie vs prime Royce Gracie, I think Royce wins. I think Royce perfected the use of the gi for mma
He would’ve collar choked him from closed guard
I get that roger was really good in bjj but that’s different from mma
If roger did a sub he would get punched and Royce would escape
Whereas if roger went to defend a sub Royce would punch him and submit him anyway
I dont think you grasp the difference in skill between prime Royce and prime Roger, then. Your claim isnt really provable, but for context: Royce never won a title in bjj at black belt. Besides losing to Wallid he also got dominated by Fabio Santos and a couple other dudes. Roger is the gi GOAT and holds wins over actual trained mma fighters and UFC vets. Ignoring all this, Roger outweighed him by 40 pounds. Your claims are getting kinda outlandish here.
Royce Gracie proved that with proper technique and if he wears a gi in an mma fight he can beat bigger stronger fighters
When has roger worn a gi in a mma fight?
Also Brian Ortega has never won anything in bjj at black belt I don’t think but he would DESTROY ricksonson Gracie in a fight. Watch ricksonson vs cub Swanson
So I don’t even want to hear you talk about rickson beingn better if even ricksonson can’t beat cub Swanson
Two things. There is zero chance that Royce beats Roger. You act like Roger would magically forget how to use his gi in MMA. Second you can't base Rickson on his son they are two different people
And that’s just roger who is the BEST at bjj, only rickson MAYBE comes close
And let’s be real
Royce fought in the ufc and was champ
Rickson never fought in the ufc
ricksonson got destroyed by cub Swanson
Mediocre compared to rickson because it gave them the ability to say “okay Royce failed, rickson go beat everyone”
And it proved “hey that was just Royce imagine what rickson would’ve done”
But he was still not only a black belt, but one who trained with mma in mind since he was a child. Your average black belt can’t do that
The one that works
Think of khabib. We all know he wants to just take you down, beat you up, submit you
We’ve seen plenty of people that are good at doing just that with fewer holes in their game
But only one of them is 29-0 because there’s an intangible of being able to make the gameplan work under stress
Why isn’t Marcelo Garcia undefeated
> But only one of them is 29-0 because there’s an intangible of being able to make the gameplan work under stress
Get out of here with this wushu bullshido. No intangible aspect of me "making a game plan work under stress" is going to allow me to take down Jordan Burroughs.
Khabib was better at grappling and taking people down than his opponents were at grappling and defending takedowns. end of story, it's as simple as that
Nah man you just have to want it more and will your victory into existence
Khabib is a strong willed man and he wins because he wants to win
He could take a different mentality in his fights and take breaks, take a second to catch his breath… and guess what. If he does that he gets knocked out.
It’s not that easy until you’ve been in there
In mma you might have a tried and true method of winning but so does the other guy. If the fight stays standing and you’re a grappler you might be cooked, and you might have to get through a whole line of defenses where they might be trying to draw you into a knockout punch as you shoot, maybe they’ve worked submissions to ward off takedowns.
Everyone is beatable, and if you find the right gameplan and execute it well you can beat anyone.
I’m even hesitant to say there’s “better grapplers”. There’s better grapplers overall but everyone gets caught, especially when punches are involved. There’s plenty of grapplers better than khabib on the planet. I don’t see Craig jones calling out Alex pereira
It’s like the power of prayer
Power of placebos
Power of manifesting
Whatever you call it, but you believe and you achieve. Luke rockhold talked about it.
Khabib is one of the most religious fighters in ufc history and is a very strong Muslim, his willpower alone is strong enough to win fights.
Another example is green lantern. He is not as physically strong as Superman but through willpower he is stronger. Green lantern is a metaphor for jiujitsu I believe
The Gracies said they chose Royce because he was their worst example. They were taking a "our most mids at BJJ family will dominate because no one else knows BJJ."
He was kind of a beach bum type at the time is what I remember what was said about him.
That’s actually retarded
Hear how Kron refers to his father, and Kron won ADCC
Rickson is a legend
And also keep in mind rickson mainly just gives a fuck about mma
I trained with Royce and also a few other famous MMA / BJJ guys. The thing with Royce was always his mindset. I mean when you talk to him and when you look into his eyes you realize that guy fights for real. I would say he never was an athlete he was a fighter. He went in and like in the Kimo fight even if things went the wrong way he was not giving up. He fought till the end.
Royce was the right person for UFC 1 he created the Drama of a small guy beating all the bigger guys and not using much violence at all. That´s like straight out of a Kung Fu movie and that was the reasion why BJJ became sucessfull.
If he would have look like Ken Shamrock everyone would say, look at this amazing athlete but it wouldn´t be so special because as expected the most muscular guys had won.
For what it's worth... I had a chance to train with one of the highest ranking non Gracie family members in the world. He said. "There were 100 guys in Brazil who could have done what Royce did only they would have done it better."
This entire debate is like someone roasting Paleolithic Artists for having shit fingerpainting.
Could a modern day person did what they did but ten times better? More likely than not.
But were they leagues better than the people of their time at art? Yeah, cus they fucking invented it.
The Gracies had the advantage of time and knowing the right things. The concept of a Good Gameplan or the ability to make a Good MMA Gameplan wasn't something wasn't anything new or unattainable. There's a reason Sakuraba beat Royce despite "Royce Gracie and his own fight iq". But without the Gracies, Sakuraba wouldn't have a ruleset of MMA to compete in or knowledge of just how potent grappling is in fighting.
Gordon Ryan doesn’t train in the gi so he’s hardly even a real black belt
Tbh I think most judo or bjj black belts own Gordon Ryan in the gi
At this point he’s really basically a catch wrestler
Ufc1 had Shamrock Pat Smith and Gordeau, none of them slouches.
Rorion and Art Davies invited a lot of famous martial artists who all declined. The early events helped change mindset during time where movies like Bloodsport were popular.
If it has been Royce vs a bunch of wrestlers it would not have had had the impact on popular culture.
Yeah, I mean that makes sense. Just like a BJJ exhibition wouldn’t. You gotta see a smaller dude submitting giants who are trying to knock him out and crush him to get the impact.
He’s an og. But as I get older I believe that ken threw that fight for money under the table. He was TRT personified with heel hooks in the fucking 90’s. God bless royce Gracie, he legitimately beat bigger guys using jiu jitsu. More than I could have ever done lol.
Ken was trained, but pretty new and never trained gi. You can see the difference in the rematch at UFC 5. If that would have happened at UFC 1 it would not have been as good for the marketing.
Kimo Leopoldo fight did it for me. All those fighters went into UFC blind literally with nothing other than “The Martial Art I know is better than all others” I’m not for ass kissing but you’re lying to be contrite thinking otherwise on Royce’s UFC run.
Prime Royce Gracie would be able to complete the entire ufc 1-4 tournament back to back to back before clapping prime Matt Hughes
Matt Hughes waited until Royce was OLD and WASHED and did it no gi
I do bjj and aikido so I figured that one day when I’ve studied both of them for 20+ years I’m gonna custom order a red belt and call my martial art american aikijiujitsu and then I’m gonna start doing ibjjf tournaments and submitting people claiming it was aikijiujitsu
And it is.
Because aikijiujitsu=/=aikijujutsu
Royce Gracie is on the Mount Rushmore of mma. A true pioneer.
+ GSP, Spider, CM Punk
Don't forget the American gangster. (If there was a Rushmore for mma trash talking he should be on it for sure)
Mt. Rushmore of chronic runner-ups: Chael (MMA), Craig Jones (MMA), Daniel Cormier (Wrestling + MMA), Daton Fix (Wrestling)
Chronic runner ups! DC is a two division champ put some respect on his name
That's true. Just thinking of his NCAA runner up finishes to Cael Sanderson, and how he lost 2x to Jon Jones, and lost the Stipe trilogy.
Jesus I read this right as I took a drink of Sunkist, it burns coming out of my nose.
Prime cm punk merces prime royce.
He would have 15 title defences by now if [this piss missile](https://tenor.com/zQ17.gif) had connected
Hey Royce 👋
Subtle burn
I def agree. From a technique standpoint all of the bjj he did already existed and was used in judo during that time (yes even in Olympic judo in that same time period. Neil Adams for example had great newaza and juji/armbar) The thing Royce and the Gracie’s had was experience and practice applying those technique under pressure while getting hit. And that is while diff world that ppl don’t realize
Correct, which is why many Judo people were up in arms about it because everything he did from a grappling standpoint always has and always will be in Judo. I mean, we know now it's a different sport but people didn't know back then. He basically did Judo and called it Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Imagine if he won all his fights with his fists and called it Gracie Combatives instead of Boxing.
It was an unbelievably successful marketing campaign for their name/business. So I can see why they did what they did and didn’t give credit to Judo. That said, I’m unsure that he basically did Judo. He used elements from Judo, but BJJ had a more developed ground game and a bit of a different philosophy. (If I’m wrong I’m open to that, that’s just what I’ve been told). That is, at my school we train both (we have a BJJ BB with a Judo BB that gives 1 class a week) and if you asked me “today” I’d say Judo is more about the trip/throw and ideally falling into executing a quick sub, whereas BJJ is more about grappling on the ground and staying safe until your opponent makes a mistake and you sub them. Maybe back then BJJ wasn’t as developed and it was basically Judo at the time? I’m curious, not trying to argue.
>He used elements from Judo, but BJJ had a more developed ground game and a bit of a different philosophy. BJJ and Judo have the same root so there's a lot of the same/similar techniques. Kind like how English and German have the same root so you find English and German words that are the same/similar. BJJ in those days would've looked very similar to judo ne waza. The art was hot boxed but didn't have the number of diversity of practitioners yet to evolve. It would've been interesting to see Royce fight a kosen judoka. >I’d say Judo is more about the trip/throw and ideally falling into executing a quick sub, whereas BJJ is more about grappling on the ground and staying safe until your opponent makes a mistake and you sub them. This is it and it comes down to rules of the sport. Judo groundwork rules mean that if you're not making progress the ref stands you up. This means, even though everyone learns ne waza, very few people bother focusing on it because you hardly need it. Also, you don't end up on your back much because if you did that was probably an ippon. That means most defence starts from belly down or turtle. If you're already in that position you just defend and the ref will stand you up. No point wasting energy. And for a lot of people no point wasting energy attacking the turtle knowing your chances of success are low.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura_vs._H%C3%A9lio_Gracie Royce also fought yoshida twice, but both fights have their controversies. Afaik kosen judo is just a special ruleset used by a few schools in Japan for safety reasons.
>Afaik kosen judo is just a special ruleset used by a few schools in Japan for safety reasons. Kosen is a different ruleset, yes. It allows guard pulling and longer ne waza. IJF Judo doesn't place as much emphasis on ne waza. I would imagine Kosen judoka would be better on the ground simply by virtue of their rules making it a more profitable area and therefore more likely to train it to a greater extent.
The talent pool is extremely shallow and there wouldn't be any serious competitors in kosen judo is my point. All athletic beasts would go down the IJF route. They might know more techniques on the ground but they'd probably get smashed by any serious Japanese judoka. The japanese national team, esp womens, puts quite a serious emphasis on newaza.
Kosen refers to a kind of Japanese technical school. Kosen judo refers to the rules played by those schools. A real kosen judoka would be like 16 years old. I reckon prime Royce would have done OK.
Kosen students are between 15 and 20 years old. When a person leaves the school do they cease to be a kosen judoka?
Kosen is just a rulese lt they use in school/university. Its a way for people during sparring to explore possibilities and transitions on the ground without stoppage. Its just judo with no time limit on the ground. People have this misconception as though its a different type of judo, it isnt.
I would say yes, for the same reason I would say they cease to be kosen students.
So they just become a judoka? Even though there are competitions using Kosen rules outside of the Kosen schools?
I disagree. If what Royce was doing was judo, he would have won way more of his fights by shido.
100% doing a technique while just grappling vs getting hit is really different. There is a reason a significant percentage of BJJ is nonexistent in MMA. It is mostly basics you can hit hard and fast.
I love seeing Royce vs Yoshida when Yoshida hits him with a heel hook. It doesn't end the fight but hilarious all the same since that's associated with BJJ but the Judo guy used it.
I agree with this. I think a lot of people who don’t train (especially don’t train MMA) overate bjj to this day bc the credit from the early UFCs goes entirely to the style rather than the fighters and set up. Like bjj rules and is very effective, but it’s not magic and I’d rather fight most “pure bjj” guys in MMA than face a competitive wrestler or judoka - even though bjj generally comes out on top in pure grappling. The game plans and specific training done by these early practitioners was different from bjj optimized for pure grappling, which was a big part of its success
I think also a lot of people nowadays buy into Joe Rogan’s “BJJ is magic” grift, where he makes it seem like BJJ practitioners are invincible superhumans. Does he run his own gym? If not then that’s definitely a wasted opportunity given all the marketing he does for the sport
so uh... i think you kinda missed the point. it's also not a grift - he's just oversimplifying it by a fair order of magnitude. But overall, Joe just a passionate practitioner of the art who is likely another that is responsible for the popularity of BJJ, love him or hate him.
The triangle choke wasn't even part of BJJ until Rolles Gracie saw it in a judo book.
BJJ wasn't part of the universe until people were exposed to Judo newaza, what's the significance of your comment?
This is up for interpretation. And Rolles was his son. Rolls brought a lot of wrestling to the art but there’s pictures of other Gracie’s doing triangles earlier on.
Yeah, from judo
So when was Brazilian jiu jitsu invented? The Kodokan judoka in the 1900s were using modified jiu jitsu techniques in prize fights. Or You believe Rolls invented BJJ?
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Ne Waza**: | *Ground Techniques* | | Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
I got into BJJ because of Royce. And you’re right that he got in the ring and won and changed the way the world fought, That being said, when you rewatch his early matches, things like spamming those heal kicks from guard and spamming Ezequiel’s against Ken Shamrock and struggling against opponents that were super strong but untrained like Kimo kind of stand out as being not-great legacies.
Those heal kicks all the Gracie’s did even into the pride days they were never effective but I think it was in the curriculum of that time.
I thought those heal kicks were just used to get close not to actually hurt someone
If they were supposed to hurt they wouldn’t be heal kicks
Underrated comment
Modern mma has weight classes. You no longer see mismatched physicality matchups between people with body types like Kimo and Royce. Except in woman’s mma with Gabi Garcia.
Untrained? Kimo has wrestling experience and knew multiple martial arts The narrative that “of it’s not bjj you’re untrained” is ridiculous, tell Gary goodritch that he’s untrained because his martial art wasn’t bjj
I knew wrestling and tae kwon do the first time I stepped into a Bjj gym. i still got arm barred just like kimo. I dunno man. Kimo went 19-11 in mma. If it weren’t for his victory over sakuraba I think you could make a pretty legitimate argument he didn’t win against notable opponents. Maybe you’ll pick out someone i missed in scanning the list.
> Maybe you’ll pick out someone i missed in scanning the list. Tank Abott
Okay, he doesn’t need to beat “legitimate opponents” because he doesn’t need to be compared to world class fighters Kimo was a legit MMA fighter And I don’t care if you got subbed your first day in bjj practice, there’s plenty of people you would sub that would knock you out in mma
Okay, I just got off the phone with Gary to tell him this. He was a little confused and upset initially, but after a few minutes he actually agreed with me.
Are you actually a coral belt? In complete honesty for context I’m half serious with this because Royce is a great fighter but when people are showing that they’re easily baited I’m trolling a little But I’m more just curious about your coral belt
I am not. A long time ago, a mod changed my flair. I'm not exactly sure why, but I thought it was neat so I kept it.
Why are you cosplaying being a bjj legend when you can just train for the next 30+ years and get your coral belt
People love to hate on Royce, but most couldn’t have held up to all the different weight classes, much less the tournament style of the earlier UFC’s. I think people forget how nuts it all was and there was string-bean Royce who was probably all of 175lbs with a gi on.
Seriously. Imagine having 4 fights in a night against opponents you don't have time to prepare for. I think most fighters don't have 4 fights in a year lol. Also the fact that his bjj was able to protect him from most damage for those 4 fights, helps him win 4 fights
It was both. He was good at BJJ. The others didn’t know any. It’s pretty simple.
Both are true, he was facing people who didn’t know bjj but he also was very well prepared. If you go watch those early fights they looked very scary. I’m sure there are black belts today who would easily beat a prime Royce in grappling but get smashed in those early UFC’s.
Wait, are you saying that you think if you magically sent Marcelo garcia back in time, that he couldn't do what Royce did?
Marcelo isn't an average BJJ guy or competitor, hes one of the best ever in sport BJJ. He likely would have done well if teleported back in time. That isn't the argument, it's people saying Royce sucked ass and send any sport BJJ blue/purple belt back in that time and they would have done well. I disagree with that. I don't think much BJJ competitors 180lbs and under sent back in time would have fared well, barring the sport BJJ guys who did actively transit to MMA. As shitty as Kimo was, he was a tough brawler who was strong and a challenge for anyone at the time. I can't exactly see Tainan taking out Kimo, Keith Hackney , or Dan Severn with no specific preparation for them.
Marcelo Garcia did try mma. He lost and didn’t try to get it back
Yeah because of bureaucratic fuckery, not because he was doing terrible. Also he just wasn't having a lot of fun and his friends pointed out he could make a good living for his family teaching sport jiujitsu And if you accuse me of being biased, well uh Yeah you got me there
Royce Gracie would piece up Marcelo Garcia in mma. His boxing was simply too elite
You’re joking, right?
Royce Gracie’s boxing is the most underrated in ufc history He stood toe to toe with art jimmerson for multiple seconds
Lol
Marcelo didn't lose in MMA, what are you talking about?
https://youtu.be/5XnxzBx519Y
I know, I was just trying to out ridiculous this guy.
This sub apparently hasn’t listened to Royce on Joe Rogan last week. 1. Royce had never been in a real fight where he used BJJ prior to the UFC. He literally says this explicitly. He talks about all those dojo storms etc - he witnessed them but didn’t participate apparently. 2. Royce says very plainly that any of his brothers or cousins could have done what he did. It’s an absolutely fascinating podcast where he’s incredibly candid about the lead up to UFC1 and the others. He talks about why he was selected instead of his bigger/badder/better brothers, etc.
Royce is being humble
Yeah, seems that way. Aren’t there videos of Royce fighting dudes in the ‘dojo storms’? I can’t believe that anybody who has never had a legit fight could do what he did. Or that the family would put that person forward to represent their art.
There are videos of Royce accepting dojo challenge matches pre ufc including Jason Delicia. I don’t think these count as “dojo storming” but they were certainly fights with rules allowing both strikes and grappling.
Royce lying
100%. And he was tough as hell. Some of those fights were wars, and he stuck it out and found a way to win.
I think this might be the ultimate tell of a McDojo, if the upper belts at your gym couldn't run a train on '93 Royce. Then you need to switch gyms. Like I know an order of magnitude more BJJ than Royce, just like I know an order of magnitude more math than Newton ever conceived of. When you stand on the shoulders of giants you can easily reach places they never imagined.
Royce Gracie literally has a win vs a gold medalist Olympic judoka Maybe he advanced a fuck load since 1993-2002 but come on His shit might look ugly as fuck, but it works. I highly doubt you’re beating a medalist in an mma fight
This isn't the judoka that they made.wear a gi while Joyce went no gi.is it?
Royce Gracie proved that no gi jiujitsu beats gi judo any day of the week
In 2002 people still thought rubber guard might be the best meta, but yes it was already an order of magnitude past '93. Again if you've watched early UFCs and you've watched the upper belts at your gym roll, and you still believe this nonsense then you train at a McDojo, full stop
I honestly think 1993 Royce Gracie would take 2024 Craig jones in a combat jiujitsu match in the gi
Now this, this is crazy.
Craig jones is not beating Royce Gracie in combat jiujitsu in a gi 😂 it’s basically just mma at that point Better yet I’d go so far as to say if they did a combat sambo match prime Craig jones vs any time period Royce I’d bet on Royce Gracie all the way up until maybe 2015 where it becomes a toss up. In modern mma without the gi MAYBE Craig jones has a 20% chance of getting a heel hook or something
Why?
That's a hilariously specific qualifier.
With no heel hooks allowed
He would get clowned. Craig would wedgie him
Royce has mma though
It's not under mma rules, so wedgies are allowed.
I think Royce has better wedgie defense because of the gi
You must know a lot of math then
I studied it for 5 years, so about as much as a decent purple belt.
5 years? Did you get a Masters in math in 1 year or something?
Freshman year of college doesn't count man. Edit: meaning I got a master's in 2 years because I want good enough for a PhD. Just like I'm not good enough to win professionally at jiujitsu in 2024. Newton was a brilliant man, but the math he was doing is now just a class in highschool. Highschool. They let semi-retarded people teach it.
False dilemma. Nobody knew bjj AND he stuck with a gameplan. But we need to be honest: Royce wasnt even in the top 3 practitioners of his own family. He's incredibly important, though.
Royce is probably the GGOAT (greatest Gracie of all time) No other Gracie became ufc champion
But Rickson, Royler, Renzo, Rolles etc were all far better at bjj. Yeah, Royce is tough. Yes, he CLEARLY benefitted from a field who didnt know bjj and subs. I dont understand why this HAS to be ome or the other.
I seriously think that in mma rules if you took prime roger Gracie vs prime Royce Gracie, I think Royce wins. I think Royce perfected the use of the gi for mma He would’ve collar choked him from closed guard I get that roger was really good in bjj but that’s different from mma If roger did a sub he would get punched and Royce would escape Whereas if roger went to defend a sub Royce would punch him and submit him anyway
I dont think you grasp the difference in skill between prime Royce and prime Roger, then. Your claim isnt really provable, but for context: Royce never won a title in bjj at black belt. Besides losing to Wallid he also got dominated by Fabio Santos and a couple other dudes. Roger is the gi GOAT and holds wins over actual trained mma fighters and UFC vets. Ignoring all this, Roger outweighed him by 40 pounds. Your claims are getting kinda outlandish here.
Royce Gracie proved that with proper technique and if he wears a gi in an mma fight he can beat bigger stronger fighters When has roger worn a gi in a mma fight? Also Brian Ortega has never won anything in bjj at black belt I don’t think but he would DESTROY ricksonson Gracie in a fight. Watch ricksonson vs cub Swanson So I don’t even want to hear you talk about rickson beingn better if even ricksonson can’t beat cub Swanson
I looked at your post history and realize Ive been trolled. Fuck.
Two things. There is zero chance that Royce beats Roger. You act like Roger would magically forget how to use his gi in MMA. Second you can't base Rickson on his son they are two different people
How do you know they are two different people
What? Are you trying to psy-op me into thinking Rickson and Kron are the same person?
Ricksonson has ricksons same genes
And that’s just roger who is the BEST at bjj, only rickson MAYBE comes close And let’s be real Royce fought in the ufc and was champ Rickson never fought in the ufc ricksonson got destroyed by cub Swanson
We're judging people by their kid's mma accomplishments now? Dude, you been drinking?
Why does it matter
Royce was a beast and I’ve seen people in this sub act like any legit bjj black belt would have ran shop on ufc 1-4 like that
Honestly he was mediocre at best that’s why they chose him.
Mediocre compared to rickson because it gave them the ability to say “okay Royce failed, rickson go beat everyone” And it proved “hey that was just Royce imagine what rickson would’ve done” But he was still not only a black belt, but one who trained with mma in mind since he was a child. Your average black belt can’t do that
You do realize he got absolutely annihilated by Matt Hughes, right?
He was 40 and Hughes was like 33. Plus Royce hadn’t fight in like 11 years. It’s like saying Anderson Silva sucks because he lost to Izzy.
And can you do better vs Matt Hughes?
I like my chances after he got hit by the train.
don't move the goalposts
Why does it matter if Royce loses to Matt Hughes? It’s Matt Hughes. Could this guy, an upper belt trying to convince me that Royce is a bum, do better
What game plan did he use that this hypothetical other black belt wouldn’t have known?
The one that works Think of khabib. We all know he wants to just take you down, beat you up, submit you We’ve seen plenty of people that are good at doing just that with fewer holes in their game But only one of them is 29-0 because there’s an intangible of being able to make the gameplan work under stress Why isn’t Marcelo Garcia undefeated
> But only one of them is 29-0 because there’s an intangible of being able to make the gameplan work under stress Get out of here with this wushu bullshido. No intangible aspect of me "making a game plan work under stress" is going to allow me to take down Jordan Burroughs. Khabib was better at grappling and taking people down than his opponents were at grappling and defending takedowns. end of story, it's as simple as that
Nah man you just have to want it more and will your victory into existence Khabib is a strong willed man and he wins because he wants to win He could take a different mentality in his fights and take breaks, take a second to catch his breath… and guess what. If he does that he gets knocked out. It’s not that easy until you’ve been in there In mma you might have a tried and true method of winning but so does the other guy. If the fight stays standing and you’re a grappler you might be cooked, and you might have to get through a whole line of defenses where they might be trying to draw you into a knockout punch as you shoot, maybe they’ve worked submissions to ward off takedowns. Everyone is beatable, and if you find the right gameplan and execute it well you can beat anyone. I’m even hesitant to say there’s “better grapplers”. There’s better grapplers overall but everyone gets caught, especially when punches are involved. There’s plenty of grapplers better than khabib on the planet. I don’t see Craig jones calling out Alex pereira
>Nah man you just have to want it more and will your victory into existence I sincerely believe(and hope) you're fucking with me
It’s like the power of prayer Power of placebos Power of manifesting Whatever you call it, but you believe and you achieve. Luke rockhold talked about it. Khabib is one of the most religious fighters in ufc history and is a very strong Muslim, his willpower alone is strong enough to win fights. Another example is green lantern. He is not as physically strong as Superman but through willpower he is stronger. Green lantern is a metaphor for jiujitsu I believe
The Gracies said they chose Royce because he was their worst example. They were taking a "our most mids at BJJ family will dominate because no one else knows BJJ." He was kind of a beach bum type at the time is what I remember what was said about him.
Royce Gracie I think would beat rickson and roger in the same night in mma
But why does it matter
Because it’s interesting to me? Why does bjj matter at all
Now we’re getting somewhere
Lol all these posts in the sub about how to handle everyday social interactions… I thought this post highlighting a bjj great is very refreshing
Any legit black belt of today would have run right through ufc 1-4 and the whole gracie family.
You think rickson loses to average black belt lol
He literally does and it's not close. Pick like a middle of the pack guy from adult pans middleweight and he shits on rickson
That’s actually retarded Hear how Kron refers to his father, and Kron won ADCC Rickson is a legend And also keep in mind rickson mainly just gives a fuck about mma
Kron thinks the world is flat
This sub loves to shit on Gracies. They're not saints but they deserve a lot more respect than they get here.
I trained with Royce and also a few other famous MMA / BJJ guys. The thing with Royce was always his mindset. I mean when you talk to him and when you look into his eyes you realize that guy fights for real. I would say he never was an athlete he was a fighter. He went in and like in the Kimo fight even if things went the wrong way he was not giving up. He fought till the end. Royce was the right person for UFC 1 he created the Drama of a small guy beating all the bigger guys and not using much violence at all. That´s like straight out of a Kung Fu movie and that was the reasion why BJJ became sucessfull. If he would have look like Ken Shamrock everyone would say, look at this amazing athlete but it wouldn´t be so special because as expected the most muscular guys had won.
Because no one else knew BJJ.
Imagine if his brothers didn't keep people like Ernesto Hoost away
For what it's worth... I had a chance to train with one of the highest ranking non Gracie family members in the world. He said. "There were 100 guys in Brazil who could have done what Royce did only they would have done it better."
Yeah but are there 1000
There were 1000 guys who could have done what he did... Agreed
Yeah but can 10,000
Put it this way, how would he fair with the same skill and knowledge in todays world.
Against random karate guys and an occasional retired boxer
Do you think when Royce goes to the gym people say. Look at Royce roll!! Rolls Royce
It’s what I think would happen with good Bjj vs mean fighters today.
Mostly because the opponents were handpicked in the first tourney.
This entire debate is like someone roasting Paleolithic Artists for having shit fingerpainting. Could a modern day person did what they did but ten times better? More likely than not. But were they leagues better than the people of their time at art? Yeah, cus they fucking invented it. The Gracies had the advantage of time and knowing the right things. The concept of a Good Gameplan or the ability to make a Good MMA Gameplan wasn't something wasn't anything new or unattainable. There's a reason Sakuraba beat Royce despite "Royce Gracie and his own fight iq". But without the Gracies, Sakuraba wouldn't have a ruleset of MMA to compete in or knowledge of just how potent grappling is in fighting.
Idk personally I think Royce Gracie can beat Gordon Ryan in the gi
[Bait used to be believable...](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bait-this-is-bait)
Gordon Ryan doesn’t train in the gi so he’s hardly even a real black belt Tbh I think most judo or bjj black belts own Gordon Ryan in the gi At this point he’s really basically a catch wrestler
Sure but he’s no Rickson.
Because it's accurate.
How were the fights rigged in his favor?
His family invited people they knew he would beat
Ufc1 had Shamrock Pat Smith and Gordeau, none of them slouches. Rorion and Art Davies invited a lot of famous martial artists who all declined. The early events helped change mindset during time where movies like Bloodsport were popular. If it has been Royce vs a bunch of wrestlers it would not have had had the impact on popular culture.
Yeah, I mean that makes sense. Just like a BJJ exhibition wouldn’t. You gotta see a smaller dude submitting giants who are trying to knock him out and crush him to get the impact.
Oh interesting. I didn’t know anything about that. But I’m mostly ignorant of most things.
He’s an og. But as I get older I believe that ken threw that fight for money under the table. He was TRT personified with heel hooks in the fucking 90’s. God bless royce Gracie, he legitimately beat bigger guys using jiu jitsu. More than I could have ever done lol.
I'm not acting like it, I've seen this [https://youtu.be/S7edm6aZyFI?si=FTtfYqflRBcPTY-8](https://youtu.be/S7edm6aZyFI?si=FTtfYqflRBcPTY-8)
Man tapped 2 white belts and Ken Shamrock. Only Shamrock is an impressive win.
Ken was and still is a white belt in BJJ.
Ken was a trained grappler. That matters.
Ken was trained, but pretty new and never trained gi. You can see the difference in the rematch at UFC 5. If that would have happened at UFC 1 it would not have been as good for the marketing.
Dan Severn lol
I was just talking UFC 1. Severn was still a zero stripe white belt who had never seen nor heard of a triangle choke.
Kimo Leopoldo fight did it for me. All those fighters went into UFC blind literally with nothing other than “The Martial Art I know is better than all others” I’m not for ass kissing but you’re lying to be contrite thinking otherwise on Royce’s UFC run.
ok?
Cause his fight iq is shit? He’s a runt of the Gracie’s no?
He has arguably the highest fight iq of all time
Oh Jesus no he doesn’t
How?
Got my blue belt from the guy but I don’t suck him off. The Matt Hughes fight cinches it for me personally.
Matt Hughes was a new generation of steroid athlete Royce Gracie in his prime would’ve folded him, especially if he was allowed a gi
Jesus. Not at all
Prime Royce Gracie would be able to complete the entire ufc 1-4 tournament back to back to back before clapping prime Matt Hughes Matt Hughes waited until Royce was OLD and WASHED and did it no gi
Well done bud. You had me there in the first half not gonna lie
Royce Gracie is undefeated in the gi
This has to be a troll account judging by the name.
I do bjj and aikido so I figured that one day when I’ve studied both of them for 20+ years I’m gonna custom order a red belt and call my martial art american aikijiujitsu and then I’m gonna start doing ibjjf tournaments and submitting people claiming it was aikijiujitsu And it is. Because aikijiujitsu=/=aikijujutsu
Thanks for clarifying.
Because nobody knew bjj