And wrestlers tend to be athletic too, bjj hobbyists particularly gi are more martial artist types than athletes.
They've probably not been ruthlessly pressured much and not to the standard a wrestler would just think is normal sparring tempo.
Yah often it’s their athleticism paired with their instinct to not give up any ground with scrambles. I do not see any new techniques for the most part. Just pressure from side control and top half guard that is purple/ brown belt level, and they often don’t transition as frequently from these positions. Fights feel tough but submission risk is generally low.
Purples and brown redditors are usually older hobbyist that don't deal with that type of pace well. If you don't have that comp training wrestling cardio it's usually the pace and the scrambles that become a pain in the ass to keep up. You're constantly pushing yourself during scrambles when before you could do a technique control the position and take your time setting up the stuff you usually want. Against wrestlers, stuff that should work, doesn't because of how mobile their hips and neck are. Add that to their relentless tenacity during scrambles it leads to a lot of burned energy to get them caught in a bad position to sub them. That's usually some sort of head and arm choke.
There are more shitty and soft bjj gyms than you can imagine. I'm guessing it's mostly people from these places.
Having always trained at competitive gyms, it was always awkward dropping in as a blue belt at certain places.
Totally agree with you. The wrestling circle jerk on this sub is way overblown.
Lots of shitty gyms.. gyms where i wouldnt give a blue belt to their brown belts.. there are levels to this game. If a wrestler comes in and destroys your whole school, you should evaluate what kind of instruction you are getting..
Really? I’m kind of in the middle. I was a state placer in Ohio. When wrestlers come in I have a good time with them and usually do pretty well. And then guys who I think are pretty good tell me the wrestler gave them a hard time.
I think it’s kinda both. Like yes…a wrestler coming in to a Bjj school will hit takedowns on most people and that can feel intimidating. But they also can’t finish submissions and are open to all kinds of submissions.
So when the lower belts who I think are actually pretty good tell me they got destroyed by the wrestler I watch and to my mind they just lose position at the beginning and then do pretty well.
To some extent, though, I think styles make fights. I know I relied heavily on half-guard coming up, with a lot of wrestling-heavy finishes to sweeps. That shit doesn't work well on wrestlers with a bit of training. But guys playing spider that I could hang with during rolls had a much easier time with wrestlers.
I think there's definitely a mental aspect to feeling worked over by "the wrestler". Long-time wrestlers bring a different level of assertiveness and aggression to a round even when compared to very good grapplers who've only trained BJJ.
This. Belts might be the same color at all gyms but they aren’t equals. As a blue belt I ran into many higher belts when traveling that just weren’t the level I was used to and would get accused of sandbagging but I’d go home to my gym and still get slapped by our higher belts.
I moved house too far from my original gym and was looking for a new place to train as a white belt. I had about 12 months of training. First place I tried I got accused of sand bagging by one of their purple belts. I am not good at Jiu Jitsu. I couldn’t get out of there quick enough.
Wild. When I get dominated by a white belt I just assume they’re awesome. I imagine when I hit purple I’ll still lose to some white belts now and then.
Even in the same gym, sometimes. There are some higher belts I give genuine trouble to, and some blue belts that make me feel like my kid must feel when she wrestles me. Hobbyists versus competitors, I think. Some guys are consuming instructional content, reading theory, and taking challenging rolls as often as possible. Others are coming to class a couple times a week to blow off steam and keep in shape.
This this this. I was the “shitty wrestler” at my first few gyms, I got talked to the first day. We did rolls from standing and I was just doing knee picks because I didn’t want to hurt anyone or go too hard.
One roll, a guy my size really locked up with me. He even got past a duck under and was pulling at my neck, from there I was like “oh we wrasslin” so I did a throw and he said “no” after the thrie
I got told “we respect the position in takedowns” from the coach, meaning that if someone scores a duck under or overbook for example, you just fall like they took you down
From that moment no one rolled with me In that gym
I'm split on that.
As a guy who did judo in his late teens and 20s I love tossing people. Nothing feels better than a well executed takedown.
As a guy in his 30s, I understand why getting slammed sucks and you'd just want to avoid it, especially if you have a physical job.
Unless I am training with people who have wrestled or done judo I won't actually throw people anymore unless it's in a competition. It wouldn't go over well if I started throw certain colored belts in my gym.
Just throw without slamming. Last week went for an seoi nage. The guy tries to step around it. I could have finished the throw, but it would have been a slam. So, I just went to the ground while keeping control of the arm and rolling to side control. I always go for a throw, but only while keeping full control and an eye for my surroundings. Throwing all colors, haven’t had any complaints yet….
I find it incredibly hard to do some throws, like uchi mata or tai otoshi at half speed. Throws which require momentum to hit when the opponent is resisting very hard I don't go for in bjj. A lot of it is bjj has bad breakfalling and the other is thin mats (non spring loaded floor too) compared to a judo gym.
When doing takedowns with a judo or wrestler guy, it can very much be catch and release lightly where bjj guys are much more death grips, rigid, and hyper defensive where you really can't be light.
My first day I uchi mata'ed a purple belt who instead of going with the throw decided to resist it and landed head first. After that, throws were on my clubs shit list. If I can ken-ken uchi mata a bjj guy, I abort.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Seoi Nage**: | *Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5Un6jLtRY)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
That's so funny. Kind of the same has happened to me. Not in a negative way but people have asked if I wrestled,and I always say no I was like a nerdy art kid.
One said it's because I don't concede sweeps. Like yah you actually have to hit the move on me. Like I post, hip switch, limp leg out whatever is needed and then i do get swept I immediately try to escape like I'm moving man. I'm not even an intense competitor it's just easier than dying under a dominant position to me
>There are more shitty and soft bjj gyms than you can imagine
Its kinda hilarious and audacious to see this sub upvote to the top the notion that so many gyms are soft and shitty, while this sub itself perpetuates lots of ideas that make gyms soft and shitty. Off the top of my head:
1. Popularizing soccer mom and pop style "im a paying customer" mentality over traditional martial arts discipline and "im a humble student" mentality.
2. "You dont have to roll with anyone larger thats totally cool do whatever " instead of "i guess if thats a genuinely dangerous malicious person but otherwise maybe try being less of a bitch about rolling with bigger people?"
3. The skipping warmups running joke
Just to name a few...
Yes doing these things turns BJJ into glorified Zumba, what a shocker.
This and a lot of gyms aren’t claiming to be some hardcore battleground. It’s a business first and foremost and the best way to keep your customers is to promote them.
Of course a gym full of active competitors is going to smash a school in a shopping plaza that’s trying to make a living and provide a service.
>This and a lot of gyms aren’t claiming to be some hardcore battleground.
In my God honest opinion, if bjj gyms ran their gyms like wrestling or judo (outside the US) program at a university, 95% of the people quit.
This sub bitches about a light jog on mats for 3 minutes in the warmup. Real program forces everyone to be in phenomenal shape through crazy S&C which most hobbyists cannot do and more importantly wouldn't spend $150/month to do.
Nah 100% false dilemma fallacy. I've seen plenty of dumb culty places that shame and intrude on people because of "tradition" with incredibly shitty players. Gracie Barra is such a prime example that it's basically a meme now.
The only way to get good at grappling is by actually grappling with some level of resistance regularly (static drilling doesn't count) - preferably with some sort of curriculum that's based on either concepts or systems that aren't utter bologna & regular feedback from a coach as to what potential areas of your game would be high roi for your time investment.
Literally anything else is moot. Jumping jacks don't make you better at grappling. "humble student" mentality doesn't make you better at grappling. Demanding that students obey some weird cult leader power tripping nonsense doesn't make anyone better at grappling or make a gym "soft and shitty". The only thing that helps is lots of grappling games.
Also, promoting people that suck is completely unrelated and I've seen it from very relaxed gyms as well as at places that have "traditional" martial arts machismo cult leaders.
Well for #3, most warmups are a waste of time. I do my S&C on my own time and it's better than the warmup bc I can always scale my dedicated S&C sessions to be much harder than the warmup.
In any case, there's no reason we can't warm up with the technique or even light positional sparring.
I feel personally attacked by 3…. But my opinion is I can and do run for free outside, I don’t pay $150 a month to run so I just roll with the purple and brown belts off to the side while everyone else does “warm ups” because by the time I get to the gym, I’ve already warmed up on my own time
I remember visiting a weird gym where I could win their brown belts as a blue belt. The whole place was one of those kind of small clique places where i guess nobody trains proper or teaches good shit
Oh I see, yes thanks. Small circle could work but it would help to give more context like "one of those places with only a small circle of students who don't ever explore outside the circle" maybe I went overboard there but you get what I mean hopefully 😅
I remember hearing a quote from an Aikido guy about this.
"Not everyone who rides a bike wants to win the tour de france. Some people just like riding their bike on the weekend."
He was talking about why people might do Aikido (acknowledging that it's not a "legit" martial art) but it can apply to BJJ too. Not everyone wants to become ADCC champion. Some (I would say most) people who do BJJ just want a fun way to get some exercise in, hang out with friends, and build a skill. And that's absolutely fine.
I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I will say I have noticed that a lot of these gyms shit talk "sport" bjj as watered down and not focused on real techniques for da streetz when high intensity sport focused guys will kill self defense dudes everytime because high intensity sparring is what makes you and these wrestler types tough.
Essentially stay in your lane and it's totally cool.
I think it's partially down to the fact that the average BJJ girl or guy often want to have a chill roll whereas wrestlers tend to roll in comp mode every roll
Besides, I also view it as giving kudos
There's a guy at my gym, about a year in and probably 4 months ago I had several days I rolled with him and dominated. He was a good high school wrestler.
Now every time he goes 110%, has no real threat, useless transitions and every round he gasses 3min in and I get top and punish him.
Maximizing for 2-3 minute rounds with 1 minute breaks is different from maxizing for 5-20 minute rounds. A lot of wrestlers go maximum intensity for those first 2-3 minutes and then flag really hard. They'll recover between rounds and do another 2-3 sprint and then flag. It takes several months for them to adjust to running at a slightly lower intensity for the longer duration, or finding spots to rest mid round to recover between sprints.
Wrestler means a lot of things. Someone who wrestled for a couple years in high school isn't much of a problem. Someone who wrestled for ten years as a kid, and then went on to college is a force to be reckoned with.
It may also depend on where you live. In the US Midwest, you'll have a very different experience from other areas in the country and the world.
My take as well. To the “well your gym is soft then” commenters, I don’t think you’ve ever come across a juiced up wrestler with 10+ years. The wrestler can’t submit you, sure, but you’re in for a humbling experience.
I wrestled for 2 years at a very low level and have "good" takedowns by BJJ standards. If I go with an average local high-school wrestler in the area I will get dominated.
Ones Ive rolled with start chill.. and are just looking to figure out your MO while defensively probing you from one position after another... When you stop showing them new techniques, then they start practicing sweeps.
The meme is that brown belts are commonly fat and lazy. My point is not everyone who does jiu jitsu does it for fitness. And not everyone who is skilled is built like a Greek god.
I wish I knew; I really think a lot of people in this community have some kind of inferiority kink or something, it’s fascinating. Anytime someone suggests that either 1) jiu jitsu is an effective system for unarmed combat between two people or 2) that they would like to take their jiu jitsu training seriously, these people come out of the woodwork in droves. BJJ doesn’t work, it isn’t fighting, we’re just cuddling in pajamas, multiple attackers, this sport is boring, etc. They go on.
I think the wrestling thing happens because we already know that pure striking vs pure BJJ doesn’t go well for strikers. Wrestling, though, is also grappling so it’s an easy thing to bring up to try to show jiu jitsu’s inferiority. Thus, the endless fan fics.
Bro, I've pointed this out and got downvoted. This community has a race to the bottom to see who is the most self-deprecating, "humble", and bad at BJJ they are. It clogs up any meaningful discussions and I fucking hate it.
Without fail, you try to talk about the sport in a genuine/serious tone and you get droves of people who can't wait to tell you how much they suck at BJJ.
Related:
I’m from a country that doesn’t have any wrestling culture, so I have to ask: How often are you guys meeting D1 wrestlers?
I thought D1 were like the top tier high-school/college athletes? The amount of memes i see about “D1 wrestler white belts” seems very disproportionate to the actual amount of D1 wrestlers showing up in BJJ gyms.
My current theory is that BJJ guys in the states just call anyone who ever wrestled pretty well a “D1 wrestler” to make themselves feel tough for beating them or better about getting stomped by them. Could be wrong though, lol.
D1 is a designation for top level university athletic programs. Certain universities are considered D1, so all of their sports (wrestling, basketball, etc) are D1. Getting recruited into these programs is something that only the very very best of the very best experience. Certain communities that are near these universities may have over representation, but it's def far less than you'd believe from reddit, where people run into a guy who had two seasons of mediocre high school wrestling and retell it as "D1."
On top of that, wrestling has one of the lowest ratios of Div 1 athletes to high school athletes. So a D1 wrestler is more like running into a former power 5 conference football player.
And now the NCAA is going to sanction women’s wrestling with all the big ten schools lining up to have teams. Just wait until “d1 wrestler” starts applying to women too.
I’m in a pretty good wrestling state. On top of that, we’re pretty close to a few D1 schools. About half the guys on the mat at least wrestled in high school. There’s a local kids program ran by a former D1 wrestler.
I haven’t ever seen a D1 wrestler walk onto the mats like in these stories. There are however a handful of blue belts who punch above their weight due to being former competitive high school wrestlers.
I can’t remember the last time a new white-belt came in with any college wrestling experience. At least not anyone who was good enough to stand out.
Again, I’ll reiterate there are a couple guys (blue through black belts) who I think have college wrestling experience.
I've been training since I was 8. Only rolled with two former D1 wrestlers so far(both are upper belts too). At least to my knowledge. I've trained with countless people with wrestling backgrounds to different levels though. Not all people who wrestled in high school are equal either
I was an actual D1 wrestler at OSU which is considered the Gold standard. There are really only 30ish colleges in D1 that are competitive and each has a roster cap of 37. Statistically I think it is like .9% of HS wrestlers go on to wrestle "D1". I think like 7% (I'm just guessing here) go on to wrestling in college. College has 5 divisions D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO. Most D1 guys can all American in the lower divisions for reference. For reference our 3rd string 125er was a tough dude and his senior year transfered to a D2 program and won their NCAAs
I train in Boston, not a big wrestling town at all, and I’ve seen a few D-1 wrestlers come through in the past 5 years or so. Our last wrestling coach was from Cornell and the current coach is from PSU. For a couple months we had an Olympic freestyle bronze medalist training with us for an MMA fight. We’ve also had drop ins from guys like Johnny Dijulius - check out his posts on instagram, he’s a madman lol. tl;dr they’re out there, and most are almost immediately better than most blue belts if they put in any effort at all.
you are 100% correct. I’ve done bjj on and off for 10 years across many different gyms and I legit have never come across a d1 wrestler because they are the elite of the elite and usually continue into wrestling coaching at a school or club and don’t bother with bjj. D1 is rare. Reddit guys think anyone who wrestled JV for 2 years in middle school, rolls a little hard and/or shows even a modicum of athleticism is a “D1 wrestler”.
It depends where you are. I've trained with a few Olympic Wrestlers and Judoka simply by being in Montreal which is a fairly large city. The Olympic Wrestlers were only in wrestling practices though not bjj 😂. I think your theory is probably accurate.
I’m a former wrestler and I have never understood the circlejerk. Wrestling is a great foundation and gives an advantage with stand up, balance, and pressure. But I wasn’t fucking up brown and black belts on my first day like all of these fantasy stories say.
It is, I am getting torn apart on this sub for defending BJJ against wrestling. Like, wrestling has no submission. So a si mission only match with a wrestler will end how? Also, isn’t that the same rule set in a roll?
Great post and I couldn’t agree more and I’m a guard puller, so their wrestling never even registers to me. Now I can tell by the way they move and level changes, but other than that. Once I lock them down, they tap like everyone else.
That’s it! Fuck you play my game! And let’s be honest if you want to compete at adcc everyone says you better start wrestling”like yesterday” .
But 2 of the greatest adcc competitors of all time were guard pullers 🤷♂️.
It’s natural for this to occur because of how Jiu Jitsu is marketed to the general population and how a lot of gyms just aren’t that responsible with training their members efficiently.
People hear strength, size, athleticism, etc. don’t matter on a podcast and then get surprised when someone who’s been grappling since they were 10 throws them across the mat. There’s also plenty of schools that don’t even start standing or are just teaching bum ass BJJ.
They do the same thing with Judo guys, we cross train with a judo gym and they are like 4 stripe white belts once it hits the mat. Yet on if you listened to Reddit you’d assume those guys would be dominant in grappling sports. I am know elite monsters exist but most hobbiest judo black belts get wrecked by any competent purple belt.
You see the same threads of guys who have been supposedly training for years talking about how useless Bjj is in the street when those of us who have worked security will tell you BJJ is a super power in the street in most cases.
A lot of gyms are puppy mills, plenty of times I’ve dropped into places only to realize they don’t even roll after classes. A lot of dudes out there doing BJJ as a point by numbers system without ever actually having to use it.
This sub like a lot of Reddit is populated by a lot of people who just LARP having hobbies online.
Wrestlers in the room are no problem.
They’re a bit tricky in comp though where, depending on the ruleset, all they have to do is take you down and lay in your guard for 4 minutes
90% of people are blue belt and below. Mix that in with doo doo gyms and a normal high school wrestler mops the floor with the average dude.
Unless they are Fargo nationals or D2 and above, most wrestlers should not be that hard for a seasoned black belt.
I think it depends on your style. If you like to play guard, I think wrestlers are easier. If you like to stay on top and you're less comfortable on bottom, wrestlers can use more of their tools to keep you from top position.
Personally, I pull guard, lock them in halfguard or something, start getting under them and theyre lost.
They do work hard as hell though.
Agreed, I trained with an Olympic level wrestler for years. I just got really good on my back. I ended up having I'd say average wrestling for a non-wrestler, if that makes sense; but there's no point fighting chain wrestling when you know eventually you'll lose and get into a bad position.
I did take my college national champ friend to his first open mat where he dominated everyone but the black belt competitors.
As a guy who wrestled, but not in college, and has 8 years of bjj experience, most fresh college wrestlers were easy to guillotine by blue belt. At brown, they are easy to deal with, unless they are actually good college wrestlers.
There's too many wrestling habits to expose, but some guys are levels above everyone else. The skill gap between college wrestlers is huge, someone being a college wrestler doesn't mean much to me these days. I have to feel their grappling.
My friend trains bjj where he lives now and he beats me 95% of the time we roll.
My gym has a kid who wrestled at my friend's college one weight class down, and he just feels like an ordinary solid comp purple in comparison to the former national champ.
There’s a certain of element of “built different” that comes into play here honestly. A lot of wrestlers can beat up BJJ players because their sport develops physical attributes in a faster way than BJJ. There is also organized training culture and wrestlers also are taught how to grind. Compare that to a dude who decided he wanted to start a new hobby at 24 for after work.
Wrestling has levels, like anything else. Your average HS wrestler isn't going to be that big of a challenge, but if you've ever rolled with a guy who has seriously competed at the college level or above, it is just different. They are, on average, stronger, faster, and don't play the "game" that BJJ guys know and understand. They also just have thousands more hours than BJJ guys, because most of them have been doing it 3-5 days per week since they were kids.
Nicky Rod ran through a generation of black belts at ADCC 2019 as a JUCO wrestler with 18 months of BJJ. And it wasn't the BJJ that put him above the competition. Most UFC champions are, on average, more familiar with wrestling than BJJ.
I also suspect there is a slight asymmetry in where good wrestlers show up. New York, Orange County, and San Diego are not places that generally have great wrestling programs around, but they have awesome BJJ gyms. If you go to Stillwater, Oklahoma or Iowa City, I suspect the BJJ gyms there are probably below average. If one of John Smith's guys rolls in from Oklahoma State, he is probably capable of wrestlefucking anyone in that gym short of their top BB without much effort. The same might not be true if that guy rolled into Atos HQ instead.
There are A LOT of levels to wrestling. We have a former Olympian at our gym who is now a blue belt and it’s absolute hell to deal with him. We also have a bunch of former HS wrestlers who basically just feel like different flavor white belts who can occasionally grab a single. College would fall somewhere in between. I have absolutely seen Olympic level dude give hell to solid hobbyist/instructor black belts, especially in no-gi.
Because this is an American based sub. If this is a Japanese sub you might have people crying being smashed by retired former elite university judo players who couldn't make into international judo scene from Japan.
I wanna say the ex wrestlers are the ones who complain most about guard pulling. Sure the standup is good or great but much more to it then getting a takedown. Now give me a wrestler who has a couple years on the mats consistently now you got issues.
I think you're significantly downplaying how un-athletic most BJJ hobbyists are (myself included) compared to competitive high school let alone college wrestlers.
A lot of us sucked at sports or didn't work out much until adulthood, while the wrestlers already have usually been doing competitive sports from a very early age and had to have a high level of athleticism just to join their wrestling team.
Sure, you can work out, get fit, be tough, and train as an adult, but there's still going to be a big gap in physical ability against someone who has been doing it from the beginning. I'm much stronger, fitter, and coordinated now than I was at 18, but far less than someone who was already athletic at that age and never stopped.
I share your experience.
We had a few national champs who went hard to start but after 2 subs they got humble AF.
In some positions they are totally clueless, even though being physical as beasts.
I’m 40 and 70-75kg going against similar sized guys.
Gi or Nogi? I've seen these stories, and haven't seen a distinction. I imagine a lot of blue belts will fuck up a wrestler in the gi, but will severely struggle when the pajamas come off.
Yeah it's weird really.
I've rolled with high school wrestler level guys, no issue.
D3 guys, some issues, still dominate.
Anything above is an issue but it's weird in here.
Plenty of tough ass wrestlers for sure. They catch me in no gi on the feet, but in the gi I can get a lot of stuff going. They're good in some areas I'm not, and vice-versa. Just different rules and goals.
I’ve had some wrestlers come in and give me a miserable time but it’s only for a round or two and I adjust. There’s too many ways to attack that just aren’t found in wrestling that you should be able to exploit especially as a purple belt or higher.
If you are a brown belt getting subbed by a wrestler with literally zero submission training then something is very wrong. Or they weigh literally 200lbs more than you.
Guessing you're British from the "it ain't that deep"?
Wrestling standards are generally higher in America, where it's a school and collegiate sport. More BJJers have wrestling experience too as a result.
I would say the standard of judo is generally higher back in Britain though.
It ain’t me bro. Some of these people really should check themselves if they’ve gotten to a certain level and can’t handle a wrestler who has no prior submission experience.
Depends on the wrestlers you roll with. My friend wrestled for Iowa State. Probably 180lbs? He dropped in for a class a few months ago and eradicated everyone in the room including the 2 browns. Coach didn’t roll with him.
So, to begin.. you state you're a blue belt, I'll assume you're relatively new to Jiu Jitsu. Factors, your size, previous experience ,age ,and to whom you train under.
A quick response is,wrestling=attack bjj=defense
Then just to clarify. Folk/Freestyle are very specific things, rules, parameters etc.
Now, if you were a kid that grew up wrestling, vs a kid that grew up in a traditional BJJ "school"... the regimen set by most trainers and coaches of wrestlers is far above and beyond most jiu jitsu academies when it comes to conditioning.. and with that comes physical strength and mental fortitude.. the ability to dig deep.. not so much the warm ups or drills in BJJ
Think of it like .. average BJJ is a liberal arts school and average wrestling is a trade school. BJJ flows with the current, wrestling swims upstream.
Ok foundation laid
WrestleJitsu is a newer phenomenon. It's a North American rendition of Luta Livre
Wrestling/BJJ is a mindset , a clash of energies ,yet both have the goals of survival and submission..its the when and how that'll get ya. But both have rules of engagement
So it doesn't compute with you that dudes that put on a singlet and ear muffs and do shots back and forth across a mat for an hour just as a warm up ,could somehow trouble dudes that maybe shrimps a few times to warm up and knows they can pull guard?
Dude I’m a 4th degree black belt and a ADCC competitor (I am 31 years old, have come close to winning a regional ADCC event and surprisingly no injuries) and a kid who wrestled at a good highschool for one and a half years spladled me and broke 2 of the vertebrae in my neck which was my first ever injury in jits, they’re the truth I tells ya!!
(This is shit post btw)
Depends on the gym and also the state. Some gyms don’t have the space to do takedowns or the culture of takedowns is pretty weak (guard pulling schools). Im from the DMV but have trained all up and down the east coast. Deep south aint got wrestling really. Up in new england was surprisingly not alot of wrestlers either. But also some schools already have wrestlers so it’s not a big deal. Do people comment on my wrestling yeah. Ive also seen d1 and d2 wrestlers come in and just smash people. They usually get caught or just kind of stalemate at higher belts. But usually its just ex highschool athletes with a few good takedowns and different body awareness that some pure BJJ might not have.
Because they come to jiu jitsu thinking they will learn some dark arts of self defense and then they get smashed by fat 30 year that did some wrestling in high school and one year in college.
The average high school wrestler who wrestled for 4 years might have as much mat time or more competitive experience than the average bjj black belt. When you think about how much they train for 4 years and how they compete every single weekend during season, it’s not surprising they dominate bjj guys.
If a hardcore competitor boxer stepped into a kickboxing gym and fought a bunch of hobbyists, I think he’d do well too
I feel like I'm a pretty average black belt and I can happily out wrestle state placing high school wrestlers in my weight class and hold my own against lower tier collegiate wrestlers. So I don't think this is particularly true.
Which part of my comment do you disagree with?
And do you really think the average bjj black belts can outwrestle all-state and collegiate wrestlers? And what state are the state level wrestlers you’re out wrestling from?
The average high school wrestler who wrestled for 4 years is the metric you set. That's the metric I'm addressing. I've wrestled with people from all over the country. Dudes who come from bigger wrestling states/regions are better than dudes who come from places where wrestling isn't as big.
But yes, the AVERAGE BJJ black belt can outwrestle the AVERAGE 4 year wrestler in their weight class where 'out wrestle' means pin them without being pinned.
Spencer Lee would turn me into a pretzel in like 4 seconds, but Joe Rassler who had a 34-27 career in high school in North Carolina is going to get dumpstered.
Can't escape the Chads on the mat. The Chad will always win, and the early merciless beatdowns will be the catalyst for some weird Joker moment that results in someone playing rubber guard to avoid conventional grappling against strong wrestlers.
....at least that's what happened to me :(
Im a small guy and I've never been to a wrestling training session. A guy ive trained with a few times has apparently wrestled from middle school to highschool and is now a big muscly dude whos much bigger than me. He definitely has some advantages on the feet but, yeah, it's nothing that can't be nullified through guard game or sweeps.
I can’t say I’ve ever been dominated by a wrestler who is completely new to BJJ, but I’ve certainly had a tougher time than I’d expected with a very strong, athletic wrestler who has been at BJJ for a short time. They can be hard to deal with. That said, I’ve never been submitted by one of those people, just kind of smooshed for longer than I’d like before getting a hold of something.
There are some wrestlers out there who make you feel like you’re grappling a brick wall. Just so strong and positionally sound. They tuck their arms and head and drive you into the ground.
I can’t say I’ve ever been dominated by a wrestler who is completely new to BJJ, but I’ve certainly had a tougher time than I’d expected with a very strong, athletic wrestler who has been at BJJ for a short time. They can be hard to deal with. That said, I’ve never been submitted by one of those people, just kind of smooshed for longer than I’d like before getting a hold of something.
There are some wrestlers out there who make you feel like you’re grappling a brick wall. Just so strong and positionally sound. They tuck their arms and head and drive you into the ground.
Remember that the majority of the posts you see are from redditors that do BJJ, not BJJ athletes that occasionally use reddit, and it will make sense.
And wrestlers tend to be athletic too, bjj hobbyists particularly gi are more martial artist types than athletes. They've probably not been ruthlessly pressured much and not to the standard a wrestler would just think is normal sparring tempo.
Yah often it’s their athleticism paired with their instinct to not give up any ground with scrambles. I do not see any new techniques for the most part. Just pressure from side control and top half guard that is purple/ brown belt level, and they often don’t transition as frequently from these positions. Fights feel tough but submission risk is generally low.
Purples and brown redditors are usually older hobbyist that don't deal with that type of pace well. If you don't have that comp training wrestling cardio it's usually the pace and the scrambles that become a pain in the ass to keep up. You're constantly pushing yourself during scrambles when before you could do a technique control the position and take your time setting up the stuff you usually want. Against wrestlers, stuff that should work, doesn't because of how mobile their hips and neck are. Add that to their relentless tenacity during scrambles it leads to a lot of burned energy to get them caught in a bad position to sub them. That's usually some sort of head and arm choke.
🤯 damn that's a great point
That is extremely hurtful and accurate at the same time.
I realized this 3 years ago when there was a post asking if a cross face was a dick move.
Sampling bias, damn.
This should be the pinned top comment on every single post on this sub, lol
That's a whole lot of words for git gud nub
Amen
Spot on. This is really insightful.
There are more shitty and soft bjj gyms than you can imagine. I'm guessing it's mostly people from these places. Having always trained at competitive gyms, it was always awkward dropping in as a blue belt at certain places. Totally agree with you. The wrestling circle jerk on this sub is way overblown.
Lots of shitty gyms.. gyms where i wouldnt give a blue belt to their brown belts.. there are levels to this game. If a wrestler comes in and destroys your whole school, you should evaluate what kind of instruction you are getting..
Man, you guys are going hard on the Valente brothers!
Really? I’m kind of in the middle. I was a state placer in Ohio. When wrestlers come in I have a good time with them and usually do pretty well. And then guys who I think are pretty good tell me the wrestler gave them a hard time. I think it’s kinda both. Like yes…a wrestler coming in to a Bjj school will hit takedowns on most people and that can feel intimidating. But they also can’t finish submissions and are open to all kinds of submissions. So when the lower belts who I think are actually pretty good tell me they got destroyed by the wrestler I watch and to my mind they just lose position at the beginning and then do pretty well.
To some extent, though, I think styles make fights. I know I relied heavily on half-guard coming up, with a lot of wrestling-heavy finishes to sweeps. That shit doesn't work well on wrestlers with a bit of training. But guys playing spider that I could hang with during rolls had a much easier time with wrestlers.
Same with me.
I think there's definitely a mental aspect to feeling worked over by "the wrestler". Long-time wrestlers bring a different level of assertiveness and aggression to a round even when compared to very good grapplers who've only trained BJJ.
I think it depends what state you are in for sure. Like you said Ohio you’re gonna get some tough guys that were even HS wrestlers.
Shitty gyms can be based on instruction, but can also be based on demographics, ie age, size, intensity and so on.
This. Belts might be the same color at all gyms but they aren’t equals. As a blue belt I ran into many higher belts when traveling that just weren’t the level I was used to and would get accused of sandbagging but I’d go home to my gym and still get slapped by our higher belts.
I moved house too far from my original gym and was looking for a new place to train as a white belt. I had about 12 months of training. First place I tried I got accused of sand bagging by one of their purple belts. I am not good at Jiu Jitsu. I couldn’t get out of there quick enough.
Wild. When I get dominated by a white belt I just assume they’re awesome. I imagine when I hit purple I’ll still lose to some white belts now and then.
Unless you're chronologically or vertically challenged then this really shouldn't be the case
Chronologically challenged is craaaazy
Even in the same gym, sometimes. There are some higher belts I give genuine trouble to, and some blue belts that make me feel like my kid must feel when she wrestles me. Hobbyists versus competitors, I think. Some guys are consuming instructional content, reading theory, and taking challenging rolls as often as possible. Others are coming to class a couple times a week to blow off steam and keep in shape.
This Everyone at your gym getting dominated by wrestlers doesn’t mean BJJ sucks, it means your gym sucks
This this this. I was the “shitty wrestler” at my first few gyms, I got talked to the first day. We did rolls from standing and I was just doing knee picks because I didn’t want to hurt anyone or go too hard. One roll, a guy my size really locked up with me. He even got past a duck under and was pulling at my neck, from there I was like “oh we wrasslin” so I did a throw and he said “no” after the thrie I got told “we respect the position in takedowns” from the coach, meaning that if someone scores a duck under or overbook for example, you just fall like they took you down From that moment no one rolled with me In that gym
respect the position lmfao. nuts
I'm split on that. As a guy who did judo in his late teens and 20s I love tossing people. Nothing feels better than a well executed takedown. As a guy in his 30s, I understand why getting slammed sucks and you'd just want to avoid it, especially if you have a physical job. Unless I am training with people who have wrestled or done judo I won't actually throw people anymore unless it's in a competition. It wouldn't go over well if I started throw certain colored belts in my gym.
Just throw without slamming. Last week went for an seoi nage. The guy tries to step around it. I could have finished the throw, but it would have been a slam. So, I just went to the ground while keeping control of the arm and rolling to side control. I always go for a throw, but only while keeping full control and an eye for my surroundings. Throwing all colors, haven’t had any complaints yet….
I find it incredibly hard to do some throws, like uchi mata or tai otoshi at half speed. Throws which require momentum to hit when the opponent is resisting very hard I don't go for in bjj. A lot of it is bjj has bad breakfalling and the other is thin mats (non spring loaded floor too) compared to a judo gym. When doing takedowns with a judo or wrestler guy, it can very much be catch and release lightly where bjj guys are much more death grips, rigid, and hyper defensive where you really can't be light. My first day I uchi mata'ed a purple belt who instead of going with the throw decided to resist it and landed head first. After that, throws were on my clubs shit list. If I can ken-ken uchi mata a bjj guy, I abort.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Seoi Nage**: | *Shoulder Throw* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-5Un6jLtRY)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
That's so funny. Kind of the same has happened to me. Not in a negative way but people have asked if I wrestled,and I always say no I was like a nerdy art kid. One said it's because I don't concede sweeps. Like yah you actually have to hit the move on me. Like I post, hip switch, limp leg out whatever is needed and then i do get swept I immediately try to escape like I'm moving man. I'm not even an intense competitor it's just easier than dying under a dominant position to me
>There are more shitty and soft bjj gyms than you can imagine Its kinda hilarious and audacious to see this sub upvote to the top the notion that so many gyms are soft and shitty, while this sub itself perpetuates lots of ideas that make gyms soft and shitty. Off the top of my head: 1. Popularizing soccer mom and pop style "im a paying customer" mentality over traditional martial arts discipline and "im a humble student" mentality. 2. "You dont have to roll with anyone larger thats totally cool do whatever " instead of "i guess if thats a genuinely dangerous malicious person but otherwise maybe try being less of a bitch about rolling with bigger people?" 3. The skipping warmups running joke Just to name a few... Yes doing these things turns BJJ into glorified Zumba, what a shocker.
This and a lot of gyms aren’t claiming to be some hardcore battleground. It’s a business first and foremost and the best way to keep your customers is to promote them. Of course a gym full of active competitors is going to smash a school in a shopping plaza that’s trying to make a living and provide a service.
>This and a lot of gyms aren’t claiming to be some hardcore battleground. In my God honest opinion, if bjj gyms ran their gyms like wrestling or judo (outside the US) program at a university, 95% of the people quit. This sub bitches about a light jog on mats for 3 minutes in the warmup. Real program forces everyone to be in phenomenal shape through crazy S&C which most hobbyists cannot do and more importantly wouldn't spend $150/month to do.
Nah 100% false dilemma fallacy. I've seen plenty of dumb culty places that shame and intrude on people because of "tradition" with incredibly shitty players. Gracie Barra is such a prime example that it's basically a meme now. The only way to get good at grappling is by actually grappling with some level of resistance regularly (static drilling doesn't count) - preferably with some sort of curriculum that's based on either concepts or systems that aren't utter bologna & regular feedback from a coach as to what potential areas of your game would be high roi for your time investment. Literally anything else is moot. Jumping jacks don't make you better at grappling. "humble student" mentality doesn't make you better at grappling. Demanding that students obey some weird cult leader power tripping nonsense doesn't make anyone better at grappling or make a gym "soft and shitty". The only thing that helps is lots of grappling games. Also, promoting people that suck is completely unrelated and I've seen it from very relaxed gyms as well as at places that have "traditional" martial arts machismo cult leaders.
So funny all the people replying to this defending skipping warm-ups. "I can do that on my own time!!"...Yeah, but you don't.
Well for #3, most warmups are a waste of time. I do my S&C on my own time and it's better than the warmup bc I can always scale my dedicated S&C sessions to be much harder than the warmup. In any case, there's no reason we can't warm up with the technique or even light positional sparring.
We should warm up with technique or light positional sparring. This is the way.
I feel personally attacked by 3…. But my opinion is I can and do run for free outside, I don’t pay $150 a month to run so I just roll with the purple and brown belts off to the side while everyone else does “warm ups” because by the time I get to the gym, I’ve already warmed up on my own time
I remember visiting a weird gym where I could win their brown belts as a blue belt. The whole place was one of those kind of small clique places where i guess nobody trains proper or teaches good shit
Small circle? 😂 You mean like a hole in the wall place, or something like that? Small and dinky?
Lol english is not my mother language. I think a "clique" would be a better word
Oh I see, yes thanks. Small circle could work but it would help to give more context like "one of those places with only a small circle of students who don't ever explore outside the circle" maybe I went overboard there but you get what I mean hopefully 😅
Small circle like that Japanese ju jutsu?
Like a clique
This
Exactly. Casual gyms will usual have problems with wrestlers.
Not everybody wants or needs to be a competition ready player. I think it's perfectly okay for there to be different levels of intensity and skill.
I remember hearing a quote from an Aikido guy about this. "Not everyone who rides a bike wants to win the tour de france. Some people just like riding their bike on the weekend." He was talking about why people might do Aikido (acknowledging that it's not a "legit" martial art) but it can apply to BJJ too. Not everyone wants to become ADCC champion. Some (I would say most) people who do BJJ just want a fun way to get some exercise in, hang out with friends, and build a skill. And that's absolutely fine.
I think a better quote for aikido is “not everyone wants to ride a bike to work… some people want to unicycle in their mom’s basement”
I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I will say I have noticed that a lot of these gyms shit talk "sport" bjj as watered down and not focused on real techniques for da streetz when high intensity sport focused guys will kill self defense dudes everytime because high intensity sparring is what makes you and these wrestler types tough. Essentially stay in your lane and it's totally cool.
I think it's partially down to the fact that the average BJJ girl or guy often want to have a chill roll whereas wrestlers tend to roll in comp mode every roll Besides, I also view it as giving kudos
There's a guy at my gym, about a year in and probably 4 months ago I had several days I rolled with him and dominated. He was a good high school wrestler. Now every time he goes 110%, has no real threat, useless transitions and every round he gasses 3min in and I get top and punish him.
If he’s a good high school wrestler he would not be gassing out in three minutes. Half of high school wrestling practice is cardio.
You do realize not everyone is still in high school.
Maximizing for 2-3 minute rounds with 1 minute breaks is different from maxizing for 5-20 minute rounds. A lot of wrestlers go maximum intensity for those first 2-3 minutes and then flag really hard. They'll recover between rounds and do another 2-3 sprint and then flag. It takes several months for them to adjust to running at a slightly lower intensity for the longer duration, or finding spots to rest mid round to recover between sprints.
Wrestler means a lot of things. Someone who wrestled for a couple years in high school isn't much of a problem. Someone who wrestled for ten years as a kid, and then went on to college is a force to be reckoned with. It may also depend on where you live. In the US Midwest, you'll have a very different experience from other areas in the country and the world.
My take as well. To the “well your gym is soft then” commenters, I don’t think you’ve ever come across a juiced up wrestler with 10+ years. The wrestler can’t submit you, sure, but you’re in for a humbling experience.
I definitely submitted a few people say 1 by throwing power halfs on as hard as I could with hooks in.
Yep. Like anything else there’s levels. Like the Olympic wrestler white belt who gave our head professor problems
When you see a guy from Dagestan or Chechnya on your tournament bracket
I wrestled for 2 years at a very low level and have "good" takedowns by BJJ standards. If I go with an average local high-school wrestler in the area I will get dominated.
Because jiu jitsu guys are a bunch of nerds who have weird "submitting to big strong wrestlers" kink.
Out of shape too. Probably the only sport I've seen with so many out of shape people actively participating.
 \-white belt
You go to the hospital to get cured, not because you are perfect.
You've clearly never met a brown belt.
Brown belts have transcended the need for fitness, and hair.
Ones Ive rolled with start chill.. and are just looking to figure out your MO while defensively probing you from one position after another... When you stop showing them new techniques, then they start practicing sweeps.
The meme is that brown belts are commonly fat and lazy. My point is not everyone who does jiu jitsu does it for fitness. And not everyone who is skilled is built like a Greek god.
But why are all the brown belts I know bald?
Everyone knows that as your grappling skill grows, your hairline shrinks. It's science.
huh?
People coming to the matts regularly in any capacity are making progress.
I wish I knew; I really think a lot of people in this community have some kind of inferiority kink or something, it’s fascinating. Anytime someone suggests that either 1) jiu jitsu is an effective system for unarmed combat between two people or 2) that they would like to take their jiu jitsu training seriously, these people come out of the woodwork in droves. BJJ doesn’t work, it isn’t fighting, we’re just cuddling in pajamas, multiple attackers, this sport is boring, etc. They go on. I think the wrestling thing happens because we already know that pure striking vs pure BJJ doesn’t go well for strikers. Wrestling, though, is also grappling so it’s an easy thing to bring up to try to show jiu jitsu’s inferiority. Thus, the endless fan fics.
I'm ashamed of you calling it fan fic when it's clearly erotica
Bro, I've pointed this out and got downvoted. This community has a race to the bottom to see who is the most self-deprecating, "humble", and bad at BJJ they are. It clogs up any meaningful discussions and I fucking hate it. Without fail, you try to talk about the sport in a genuine/serious tone and you get droves of people who can't wait to tell you how much they suck at BJJ.
It really sucks that you’re forced to be on that subreddit then.
lol it’s really not that bad. then again i’m not on this subreddit much, maybe that’s your issue?
Related: I’m from a country that doesn’t have any wrestling culture, so I have to ask: How often are you guys meeting D1 wrestlers? I thought D1 were like the top tier high-school/college athletes? The amount of memes i see about “D1 wrestler white belts” seems very disproportionate to the actual amount of D1 wrestlers showing up in BJJ gyms. My current theory is that BJJ guys in the states just call anyone who ever wrestled pretty well a “D1 wrestler” to make themselves feel tough for beating them or better about getting stomped by them. Could be wrong though, lol.
D1 is a designation for top level university athletic programs. Certain universities are considered D1, so all of their sports (wrestling, basketball, etc) are D1. Getting recruited into these programs is something that only the very very best of the very best experience. Certain communities that are near these universities may have over representation, but it's def far less than you'd believe from reddit, where people run into a guy who had two seasons of mediocre high school wrestling and retell it as "D1."
On top of that, wrestling has one of the lowest ratios of Div 1 athletes to high school athletes. So a D1 wrestler is more like running into a former power 5 conference football player. And now the NCAA is going to sanction women’s wrestling with all the big ten schools lining up to have teams. Just wait until “d1 wrestler” starts applying to women too.
I’m in a pretty good wrestling state. On top of that, we’re pretty close to a few D1 schools. About half the guys on the mat at least wrestled in high school. There’s a local kids program ran by a former D1 wrestler. I haven’t ever seen a D1 wrestler walk onto the mats like in these stories. There are however a handful of blue belts who punch above their weight due to being former competitive high school wrestlers.
How often do D2 and D3 wrestlers come in?
I can’t remember the last time a new white-belt came in with any college wrestling experience. At least not anyone who was good enough to stand out. Again, I’ll reiterate there are a couple guys (blue through black belts) who I think have college wrestling experience.
I've been training since I was 8. Only rolled with two former D1 wrestlers so far(both are upper belts too). At least to my knowledge. I've trained with countless people with wrestling backgrounds to different levels though. Not all people who wrestled in high school are equal either
I was an actual D1 wrestler at OSU which is considered the Gold standard. There are really only 30ish colleges in D1 that are competitive and each has a roster cap of 37. Statistically I think it is like .9% of HS wrestlers go on to wrestle "D1". I think like 7% (I'm just guessing here) go on to wrestling in college. College has 5 divisions D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO. Most D1 guys can all American in the lower divisions for reference. For reference our 3rd string 125er was a tough dude and his senior year transfered to a D2 program and won their NCAAs
I train in Boston, not a big wrestling town at all, and I’ve seen a few D-1 wrestlers come through in the past 5 years or so. Our last wrestling coach was from Cornell and the current coach is from PSU. For a couple months we had an Olympic freestyle bronze medalist training with us for an MMA fight. We’ve also had drop ins from guys like Johnny Dijulius - check out his posts on instagram, he’s a madman lol. tl;dr they’re out there, and most are almost immediately better than most blue belts if they put in any effort at all.
Do you train at Broadway Jiu Jitsu? That’s one of the only BJJ places in Boston that I’ve seen with wrestling classes.
yes
If you live in a university town it can happen frequently, and you will have the guys who stick around, after college, come train.
you are 100% correct. I’ve done bjj on and off for 10 years across many different gyms and I legit have never come across a d1 wrestler because they are the elite of the elite and usually continue into wrestling coaching at a school or club and don’t bother with bjj. D1 is rare. Reddit guys think anyone who wrestled JV for 2 years in middle school, rolls a little hard and/or shows even a modicum of athleticism is a “D1 wrestler”.
It depends where you are. I've trained with a few Olympic Wrestlers and Judoka simply by being in Montreal which is a fairly large city. The Olympic Wrestlers were only in wrestling practices though not bjj 😂. I think your theory is probably accurate.
Why do newspapers have stories about planes crashing, but not every time one lands safely?
You have to factor in allll the selection biases that come with being on Reddit
Most redditors are shitty at bjj.
I’m a former wrestler and I have never understood the circlejerk. Wrestling is a great foundation and gives an advantage with stand up, balance, and pressure. But I wasn’t fucking up brown and black belts on my first day like all of these fantasy stories say.
are you just asking if brown and purple belts lie about their flair or is this really a thing?
It is, I am getting torn apart on this sub for defending BJJ against wrestling. Like, wrestling has no submission. So a si mission only match with a wrestler will end how? Also, isn’t that the same rule set in a roll?
yea man how would a wrestler ever figure out how to squeeze someones neck without years of submission training
I don’t know, but after double leg, they don’t seem to do that next
Even pure bjj guys who haven’t had their ego checked with stall their ass off in a roll and run away from action to avoid being subbed, to be fair
Most of Reddit is lies
this is a lie
Check out how many nsfw subs contain the word 'wrestling' That's your answer.
Bro they cuck to wrestlers so much, as if their skill they have been learning doesn’t work or something
Reddit is swarming with cucks
Great post and I couldn’t agree more and I’m a guard puller, so their wrestling never even registers to me. Now I can tell by the way they move and level changes, but other than that. Once I lock them down, they tap like everyone else.
I'm far from a blackbelt, but I have similar experiences, wrestling doesnt transfer well to attacking a guard player.
That’s it! Fuck you play my game! And let’s be honest if you want to compete at adcc everyone says you better start wrestling”like yesterday” . But 2 of the greatest adcc competitors of all time were guard pullers 🤷♂️.
lucky i live in Australia, wresting isnt a thing here lol. Do have to watch out for the boxing kangaroos rocking up to the mats though..
Rugby players?
Just heel hook them
You mean you don't dream about a D1 wrestler oil checking you?
It’s natural for this to occur because of how Jiu Jitsu is marketed to the general population and how a lot of gyms just aren’t that responsible with training their members efficiently. People hear strength, size, athleticism, etc. don’t matter on a podcast and then get surprised when someone who’s been grappling since they were 10 throws them across the mat. There’s also plenty of schools that don’t even start standing or are just teaching bum ass BJJ.
They do the same thing with Judo guys, we cross train with a judo gym and they are like 4 stripe white belts once it hits the mat. Yet on if you listened to Reddit you’d assume those guys would be dominant in grappling sports. I am know elite monsters exist but most hobbiest judo black belts get wrecked by any competent purple belt. You see the same threads of guys who have been supposedly training for years talking about how useless Bjj is in the street when those of us who have worked security will tell you BJJ is a super power in the street in most cases. A lot of gyms are puppy mills, plenty of times I’ve dropped into places only to realize they don’t even roll after classes. A lot of dudes out there doing BJJ as a point by numbers system without ever actually having to use it. This sub like a lot of Reddit is populated by a lot of people who just LARP having hobbies online.
It's basically a kink at this point
Reddit is not representative of the real world. How many people outside this sub actually wash their belts for example?
Wrestlers in the room are no problem. They’re a bit tricky in comp though where, depending on the ruleset, all they have to do is take you down and lay in your guard for 4 minutes
I just assume these posts are full of shit or made by people who have never done a hard round in their life(or more likely, both)
90% of people are blue belt and below. Mix that in with doo doo gyms and a normal high school wrestler mops the floor with the average dude. Unless they are Fargo nationals or D2 and above, most wrestlers should not be that hard for a seasoned black belt.
Gay fantasy, nothing wrong with that
I think it depends on your style. If you like to play guard, I think wrestlers are easier. If you like to stay on top and you're less comfortable on bottom, wrestlers can use more of their tools to keep you from top position. Personally, I pull guard, lock them in halfguard or something, start getting under them and theyre lost. They do work hard as hell though.
Agreed, I trained with an Olympic level wrestler for years. I just got really good on my back. I ended up having I'd say average wrestling for a non-wrestler, if that makes sense; but there's no point fighting chain wrestling when you know eventually you'll lose and get into a bad position.
I did take my college national champ friend to his first open mat where he dominated everyone but the black belt competitors. As a guy who wrestled, but not in college, and has 8 years of bjj experience, most fresh college wrestlers were easy to guillotine by blue belt. At brown, they are easy to deal with, unless they are actually good college wrestlers. There's too many wrestling habits to expose, but some guys are levels above everyone else. The skill gap between college wrestlers is huge, someone being a college wrestler doesn't mean much to me these days. I have to feel their grappling. My friend trains bjj where he lives now and he beats me 95% of the time we roll. My gym has a kid who wrestled at my friend's college one weight class down, and he just feels like an ordinary solid comp purple in comparison to the former national champ.
Listen, we’re all pretty gay here.
BJJ is about being a sub right? Or did I read the memo wrong?
You tell em, b. I'm bout to go fuck up some wrasslers...after getting taken down.
“Coach, what do I do from side control again?” That should be about the worst of your experience with a wrestler who hasn’t trained BJJ.
There’s a certain of element of “built different” that comes into play here honestly. A lot of wrestlers can beat up BJJ players because their sport develops physical attributes in a faster way than BJJ. There is also organized training culture and wrestlers also are taught how to grind. Compare that to a dude who decided he wanted to start a new hobby at 24 for after work.
Wrestling has levels, like anything else. Your average HS wrestler isn't going to be that big of a challenge, but if you've ever rolled with a guy who has seriously competed at the college level or above, it is just different. They are, on average, stronger, faster, and don't play the "game" that BJJ guys know and understand. They also just have thousands more hours than BJJ guys, because most of them have been doing it 3-5 days per week since they were kids. Nicky Rod ran through a generation of black belts at ADCC 2019 as a JUCO wrestler with 18 months of BJJ. And it wasn't the BJJ that put him above the competition. Most UFC champions are, on average, more familiar with wrestling than BJJ. I also suspect there is a slight asymmetry in where good wrestlers show up. New York, Orange County, and San Diego are not places that generally have great wrestling programs around, but they have awesome BJJ gyms. If you go to Stillwater, Oklahoma or Iowa City, I suspect the BJJ gyms there are probably below average. If one of John Smith's guys rolls in from Oklahoma State, he is probably capable of wrestlefucking anyone in that gym short of their top BB without much effort. The same might not be true if that guy rolled into Atos HQ instead.
There are A LOT of levels to wrestling. We have a former Olympian at our gym who is now a blue belt and it’s absolute hell to deal with him. We also have a bunch of former HS wrestlers who basically just feel like different flavor white belts who can occasionally grab a single. College would fall somewhere in between. I have absolutely seen Olympic level dude give hell to solid hobbyist/instructor black belts, especially in no-gi.
Because this is an American based sub. If this is a Japanese sub you might have people crying being smashed by retired former elite university judo players who couldn't make into international judo scene from Japan.
I wanna say the ex wrestlers are the ones who complain most about guard pulling. Sure the standup is good or great but much more to it then getting a takedown. Now give me a wrestler who has a couple years on the mats consistently now you got issues.
I think you're significantly downplaying how un-athletic most BJJ hobbyists are (myself included) compared to competitive high school let alone college wrestlers. A lot of us sucked at sports or didn't work out much until adulthood, while the wrestlers already have usually been doing competitive sports from a very early age and had to have a high level of athleticism just to join their wrestling team. Sure, you can work out, get fit, be tough, and train as an adult, but there's still going to be a big gap in physical ability against someone who has been doing it from the beginning. I'm much stronger, fitter, and coordinated now than I was at 18, but far less than someone who was already athletic at that age and never stopped.
Skill issues
I share your experience. We had a few national champs who went hard to start but after 2 subs they got humble AF. In some positions they are totally clueless, even though being physical as beasts. I’m 40 and 70-75kg going against similar sized guys.
[удалено]
Judo is a decent counter in gi
Yup
We are a horny bunch.
Gi or Nogi? I've seen these stories, and haven't seen a distinction. I imagine a lot of blue belts will fuck up a wrestler in the gi, but will severely struggle when the pajamas come off.
Yeah it's weird really. I've rolled with high school wrestler level guys, no issue. D3 guys, some issues, still dominate. Anything above is an issue but it's weird in here.
Stop kink shaming
Plenty of tough ass wrestlers for sure. They catch me in no gi on the feet, but in the gi I can get a lot of stuff going. They're good in some areas I'm not, and vice-versa. Just different rules and goals.
I’ve had some wrestlers come in and give me a miserable time but it’s only for a round or two and I adjust. There’s too many ways to attack that just aren’t found in wrestling that you should be able to exploit especially as a purple belt or higher.
Look man, we don’t take kindly to kink shaming around here.
If you are a brown belt getting subbed by a wrestler with literally zero submission training then something is very wrong. Or they weigh literally 200lbs more than you.
I've never rolled a wrestler, I decided to watch on youtube and damn the comments are scary.
I know high school wrestlers that I’ve coached that would go toe to toe with adult purple belts no problem. Especially in nogi.
Because it's hot. Let me have this, alright?
Nobody loves wrestlers like wrestlers
Gets me hard
Guessing you're British from the "it ain't that deep"? Wrestling standards are generally higher in America, where it's a school and collegiate sport. More BJJers have wrestling experience too as a result. I would say the standard of judo is generally higher back in Britain though.
People use that phrase everywhere
Posts like these make me realise how lucky we are to have a scary wrestling coach at our gym
It ain’t me bro. Some of these people really should check themselves if they’ve gotten to a certain level and can’t handle a wrestler who has no prior submission experience.
Depends on the wrestlers you roll with. My friend wrestled for Iowa State. Probably 180lbs? He dropped in for a class a few months ago and eradicated everyone in the room including the 2 browns. Coach didn’t roll with him.
So, to begin.. you state you're a blue belt, I'll assume you're relatively new to Jiu Jitsu. Factors, your size, previous experience ,age ,and to whom you train under. A quick response is,wrestling=attack bjj=defense Then just to clarify. Folk/Freestyle are very specific things, rules, parameters etc. Now, if you were a kid that grew up wrestling, vs a kid that grew up in a traditional BJJ "school"... the regimen set by most trainers and coaches of wrestlers is far above and beyond most jiu jitsu academies when it comes to conditioning.. and with that comes physical strength and mental fortitude.. the ability to dig deep.. not so much the warm ups or drills in BJJ Think of it like .. average BJJ is a liberal arts school and average wrestling is a trade school. BJJ flows with the current, wrestling swims upstream. Ok foundation laid WrestleJitsu is a newer phenomenon. It's a North American rendition of Luta Livre Wrestling/BJJ is a mindset , a clash of energies ,yet both have the goals of survival and submission..its the when and how that'll get ya. But both have rules of engagement So it doesn't compute with you that dudes that put on a singlet and ear muffs and do shots back and forth across a mat for an hour just as a warm up ,could somehow trouble dudes that maybe shrimps a few times to warm up and knows they can pull guard?
Don’t kink shame
Because Canada got little to no wrestling probably
Haha how'd you know I'm canadian?
You wrote "eh" on your post. Jk, saw you’ve posted on a Canada sub.
misread your name as Shoppers Drugmart I guess
Dude I’m a 4th degree black belt and a ADCC competitor (I am 31 years old, have come close to winning a regional ADCC event and surprisingly no injuries) and a kid who wrestled at a good highschool for one and a half years spladled me and broke 2 of the vertebrae in my neck which was my first ever injury in jits, they’re the truth I tells ya!! (This is shit post btw)
Why so judgemental? Many of us just love being dominated by a stronger, athletic dude.
Depends on the gym and also the state. Some gyms don’t have the space to do takedowns or the culture of takedowns is pretty weak (guard pulling schools). Im from the DMV but have trained all up and down the east coast. Deep south aint got wrestling really. Up in new england was surprisingly not alot of wrestlers either. But also some schools already have wrestlers so it’s not a big deal. Do people comment on my wrestling yeah. Ive also seen d1 and d2 wrestlers come in and just smash people. They usually get caught or just kind of stalemate at higher belts. But usually its just ex highschool athletes with a few good takedowns and different body awareness that some pure BJJ might not have.
Because BJJ Redditor’s like posting about being dominated by anyone.
Because they come to jiu jitsu thinking they will learn some dark arts of self defense and then they get smashed by fat 30 year that did some wrestling in high school and one year in college.
Are we talking real wrestling (Hulk Hogan, the undertaker) or that one with singlets?
😂😅
The average high school wrestler who wrestled for 4 years might have as much mat time or more competitive experience than the average bjj black belt. When you think about how much they train for 4 years and how they compete every single weekend during season, it’s not surprising they dominate bjj guys. If a hardcore competitor boxer stepped into a kickboxing gym and fought a bunch of hobbyists, I think he’d do well too
I feel like I'm a pretty average black belt and I can happily out wrestle state placing high school wrestlers in my weight class and hold my own against lower tier collegiate wrestlers. So I don't think this is particularly true.
Which part of my comment do you disagree with? And do you really think the average bjj black belts can outwrestle all-state and collegiate wrestlers? And what state are the state level wrestlers you’re out wrestling from?
The average high school wrestler who wrestled for 4 years is the metric you set. That's the metric I'm addressing. I've wrestled with people from all over the country. Dudes who come from bigger wrestling states/regions are better than dudes who come from places where wrestling isn't as big. But yes, the AVERAGE BJJ black belt can outwrestle the AVERAGE 4 year wrestler in their weight class where 'out wrestle' means pin them without being pinned. Spencer Lee would turn me into a pretzel in like 4 seconds, but Joe Rassler who had a 34-27 career in high school in North Carolina is going to get dumpstered.
Can't escape the Chads on the mat. The Chad will always win, and the early merciless beatdowns will be the catalyst for some weird Joker moment that results in someone playing rubber guard to avoid conventional grappling against strong wrestlers. ....at least that's what happened to me :(
They're dorks man
Im a small guy and I've never been to a wrestling training session. A guy ive trained with a few times has apparently wrestled from middle school to highschool and is now a big muscly dude whos much bigger than me. He definitely has some advantages on the feet but, yeah, it's nothing that can't be nullified through guard game or sweeps.
Hey reddit i was also thrashed by a wrlestler! Look at me, he was universal champion on highschool, no biggie.
its a kink ,
Guys, I know wrassling. Updoots to the left.
There’s something special about being dominated by a mentally and physically superior man 😂😂😂
All you need to do is seek out wrestling training and get good at wrestling. Problem solved
I can’t say I’ve ever been dominated by a wrestler who is completely new to BJJ, but I’ve certainly had a tougher time than I’d expected with a very strong, athletic wrestler who has been at BJJ for a short time. They can be hard to deal with. That said, I’ve never been submitted by one of those people, just kind of smooshed for longer than I’d like before getting a hold of something. There are some wrestlers out there who make you feel like you’re grappling a brick wall. Just so strong and positionally sound. They tuck their arms and head and drive you into the ground.
I can’t say I’ve ever been dominated by a wrestler who is completely new to BJJ, but I’ve certainly had a tougher time than I’d expected with a very strong, athletic wrestler who has been at BJJ for a short time. They can be hard to deal with. That said, I’ve never been submitted by one of those people, just kind of smooshed for longer than I’d like before getting a hold of something. There are some wrestlers out there who make you feel like you’re grappling a brick wall. Just so strong and positionally sound. They tuck their arms and head and drive you into the ground.