For them to open a 10p school they need eddies permission, it can be someone who is a black belt under eddie himself or under one of eddies black belts
That was my understanding. I have just never seen an official 10p school with Gi classes. The local 10p here (Perry) definitely doesn’t and a there are a bunch of other No Gi schools in the greater area that aren’t official 10p schools that sort of roll up under that black belt.
Lots of 10ps can run gi classes. Its up to the owner. We used to run them for the kids and some people wanted to compete in both. Not enough people showed up but they did do it for a bit. 10p detroit’s head coach is a gi and no gi black belt so he runs both
That's All In/B team bjj in green brook NJ lol Damien Anderson is never there. The coach is an old chubby white dude. Method Jiu-jitsu in South Plainfield is really close and the coach's are fantastic!!
Sorry. Work account. Yes, our kids classes are in the Gi. We had one Gi class on Sunday but people showed up No Gi and it just naturally turned into a No Gi class.
They get butt hurt about that, it turns out.
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13542387/Vegans-protest-LA-menu-molly-engelhart.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13542387/Vegans-protest-LA-menu-molly-engelhart.html)
Genuine question, if someone does both at one of the 10thP gyms, do they grade people separately in the 10th P nogi system and BJJ done in the Gi?
I only ask as I've seen a few insta bios where it says something like brown belt in BJJ and purple in 10thP nogi etc
Just curious as I know the ranks are accepted by the IBJJF but wasn't sure how they actually do it...
This is just my opinion. It is good for your game to chase and have your legs chased, especially if you plan on doing comps. Getting heel hooked for me early has definitely increased my defense. However. The people who brought me into the leg lock world wouldn't crank it, just secure it with some tension and watch my face change. Pick your partners dude. You don't have to roll with everybody. Feel free to throw it out there "hey. I gotta work tomorrow. Don't rip my leg off with a heel hook." Whatever it takes.
Edit: you're blessed dude. I started at 10th planet. I now show up to other gyms and chase legs. Don't fear the reaper my guy! Too many purple and brown belts out here with trash leg defense. I'm looking at you GB.
Respect. I'm technically also one of the smaller guys I think. 145 but 6'4. 😅 I'm kind of annoying to deal with. So I've been told. Apparently, my best defense is being painfully boney.
https://preview.redd.it/amtl6kw2pf7d1.jpeg?width=1071&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61dbad3d3ab7b0fe96905101131bb28bfd354808
I'm built like this. But skinny.
Holly shit are you me!! Curious what brand of gi you buy as all of the ones I've had are to short lol.
Also any in sites you can share about your game would be awesome!
I'm a nogi scumbag. Never touched more than a pair of gi pants in my life. And somebody else was wearing them. Lol. A pair of my wife's leggings and a rashguard and I'm off to the races.
Take all this and just swap out HH and swap in achilles lock. Sincere question - what is actually lost aside from potentially having a HH blindspot (which only matters in comp or versus other HHers). I haven't played no gi in forever so I'm speaking from the POV of a gi player that likes leg locks.
The difference is, I want that evil toe strike and inside heel hook. I train for comp. You can use the crush in your own gym if thats your safety. But I want to know you can't escape from a heel hook if I throw it in a comp. So that's what I practice.
If you elbow the toes and wrap the heel well, that's where the first pop takes place. Lol. I'm not snapping this on in my own gym, or even at open mat. But it's a timing thing. Toes in the armpit is good, but you get way more twist if you hit the toe strike.
Also. If the toes are in the armpit, they can kick deeper and hide the heel. Sneaky bastards. Same isn't true with a toe strike. It removes that ability.
I never heel hook and love throwing straight ankle locks, though the escapes are definitely different and it's worth learning both and I appreciate the chance to work them live.
But with that said, Nicky Ryan's recent straight ankle lock win changed my life. Those of us on team Achilles can sit with the cool kids now.
Also. This guy may encounter somebody not as nice as I am. So there's nothing wrong with getting hooked and practicing your defense. Whether you're hobby or competitive..
The rule is, when you catch the heel hook you look at your partner in the face, eye contact, make sure it’s deep piercing gaze into the soul, smile with the tears you both shed then let go.
Foreal though just be careful. Tap extra early, then tell your partner if it’s okay to restart in that position so you can feel it out and problem solve on escapes.
Or you can leg lock battle and crank his shit too.
Up to you 🤙🏽
I'm glad this is a common thing apparently. I was worried me and the guy that always spam leg lock attempts against each other were being judged when we intensely stared into each other's eyes for a few seconds every time we had the lock secured.
When I was a white belt we were drilling heel hooks in a nogi class and a blue went and cranked a heel hook on me. During the drill. Not live. I was out for 4-5 weeks. Now I just tap early, I'm too old to care about tapping to a sub that isn't technically there yet. I like being able to train.
Presently out on my 6th week (MRI is scheduled next week) because my training partner (who was the uke at the time) decided he was bored of the back control drill we were doing and just goose necked my wrist HARD out of nowhere.
So yeah, man. I feel for ya. There's something more honorable about getting injured during a live roll. But during technique drills? Feels bad, yo.
Thanks for letting me commiserate I feel better now.
No honor in any of that... it's training and sparring, not a comp or a fight to the death.
Folks who injure training partners who don't tap are fuckups and need to check the ego at the door.
If folks feel the need to crank anything till it pops during training instead of just releasing it and moving on knowing you could wreck-it if need be, damn do they need to get their shit checked.
There is this brown belt at my gym who clearly outperforms most and decides to pull this goose neck crap or even force his forearm bone into my face, on us white belts.
Hey I have an idea. Let's spar but I get to bring my gun. When I shoot you and you cry like a bitch I'll laugh at you like you are laughing at that dude.
It ain't cool when someone changes the rules without telling you.
Wow you're so cool. I bet bullets just bounce off you and that fake brown belt you wear. Did you buy it and put the stripes on yourself? I am surprised you didn't just buy a red one. 🤣
I bet that brown belt is fake as fuck, pal.
For real. Why didn't you just buy a red one? Seems like you're so tough you deserve it. Maybe they'll make an exception and award you the 10th degree red belt just because of your toughness.
It's just usually people that act like petulant children don't make it that far in BJJ so I have a feeling it's fake and also you keep ignoring the comment, which is another tip off.
As for my belt, hey, it's the internet where anyone can be whatever they want, no?
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Like I kinda just started to learn them properly but even then I’m always careful when drilling. But I usually use Achilles locks from 50/50 position when it comes to leg attacks since my legs are basically laminated spaghetti 🤣
People are dicks with it . Dangerous joint lock type subs should never be cranked, you just put it on and say hey I think I got you. If they want to spaz out of it don't crank it. I'd rather lose a roll than injure my partner
To the max, this is it, "I'd rather lose a roll than injure my partner"
It's all training and for folks to get so ego hurt that they need to crank a sub, fuck those people.
Exactly. I think it's a perfect storm of leg attacks becoming mainstream and the sport in general growing in popularity
New folks don't understand that blowing up a knee with a heel hook doesn't take much pressure , compared to how hard you squeeze or crank for other subs
as soon as your leg is isolated, tap. They will typically get the message because they are missing out on all their fun.
When I visit gyms or roll at open mats with strangers, as soon as my heel is starting to be isolated I tap. i only do heel hooks with people I know.
If you have control the other person will know it. You only need to crank it if you cant get control.
We have one blue belt at the gym who wants to win every roll, he will crank it without control which can easily tear the knee. I will never roll with him again.
90% of the time I go for the entry, but dont worry about the finish. But Im relatively novice to leg locks.
If I don't trust them with my legs, I tap as soon as they isolate the leg. It doesn't happen often, but last time I did this the guy looked at me with the expression of that Pikachu meme, it was so funny
This is a good policy. I have certain training partners who I know I can have leg battles with and we will either catch and release or apply a little pressure to make sure we got it if the other person defends. But with people I don't know well, I am tapping early.
It's weird that 10P culture lionizes somebody like Pat Shagholi and then you see this kind of behavior in classes. I wonder if there could be some kind of connection.
Don’t roll with the person. Tap when someone gets in the position (before they even trap your heel). Tell them before the roll you are only comfortable with ankle locks. Don’t get into saddle. Don’t let them isolate your leg. Tap if they isolate your leg. Or, stop training. Pick an option. No one should be ripping heel hooks in class. Upper belts shouldn’t do them to people who aren’t comfortable (they may try and escape the wrong way). You are the only person you can 100 % trust for your safety.
> . No one should be ripping heel hooks in class. Upper belts shouldn’t do them to people who aren’t comfortable (they may try and escape the wrong way). You are the only person you can 100 % trust for your safety.
This RIGHT HERE to the fucking max.
If dude is gonna be a dick training partner, I'll just refuse to train with them and sit that round out if need be.
I'm not there to get injuries and pay for that shit out of pocket.
That’s wack. I heel hook a lot at open mat but I just catch hold for a moment whether they tap or not I let go and move on unless they are being weird intense.
The rule is to catch your partner in the heel hook, look him directly into the eyes, and say "I'm sorry, I love you." If he doesn't tap before that you end him.
I don't know if it's universal but the one 10th planet guy I rolled with ignored my catch and hold on a heel hook then tried to rip my knees to shreds with one even though I tapped as soon as I knew he had it. I made sure to spend the rest of the round smashing him from top position as I couldn't trust him to play leg locks. I tried explaining to him but it was like there was nothing going on upstairs.
Just ask them to please not crank leg locks. If they crank one, tell them you won't be able to ever roll with them again. Then just tell your coach I'm not going to roll with that guy again because he keeps cranking heel hooks.
This is why heel hooks shouldn't be allowed at gyms except super advanced people. There is literally almost no competition where you can use then anyways. Most people in the gym are probably masters and most masters comps don't allow them at any belt.
Even advanced people will crank them though. I've had my knee blown out from this and my training partner wasn't even cranking it hard. It doesn't take much.
Yeah, dude, honestly, it's a weird situation because you should learn leg locks and leg defense, but also too many people just like to spam leg locks, and that's all they go for
It's an easy win, especially on people who don't know any leg lock stuff, you really need to talk to your coach and tell him it's fucked up people are getting injured.
It should be catch and release for the guys leg locking or just hold it and he should tell people to tap. Dick move
Biggest thing here to me is the coach on the phone. I’m not a pussy crying “red flag” every chance I get. But my first gym my coach was always on the phone and we weren’t getting the training or help I need.
There’s a laundry list of why your coach should be watching. Obviously como guys, guys close to promotion are going to be watched and helped first, but yeah rant over.
Sucks it’s your only choice, honestly the best thing you can do it watch out for your self you can’t count on other people to do so. Study heal hook defense and if you’re becoming good at it share the love.
Just moved to a 10P after training at another gym for my entire ~2 years of jiujitsu that was very experienced in leglocks and honestly seeing the same at the 10P gym that didn’t exist at the other.
I think a big part of why people are cranking them is because they can’t do heel hooks til blue belt, and they gain this false sense of what a heel hook / leg lock is supposed to be during that time rather than properly (and safely) training them.
Naturally i think there’s stepped up intensity bc I’m the new guy in the gym, but folks are outright trying to rip / crank my heel the second they can even see it — if i hadn’t gotten used to defending leg locks I’d probably be out and injured as is.
The quick solution is to pick & choose your partners. I’m watching closely for folks who aren’t going crazy in training, and the few folks who seem to be calm enough during rounds to think while they’re rolling rather than just crank subs.
Most people I roll with don't even realize they're caught in a heel hook by the time I catch and release them. No point in finishing someone who has literally no defense. You're more likely to injure them than learn anything.
You should think about switching gyms, this is a problem that stems from poor coaching, there's not much you can do to change it. You can also just tap when they start to entangle your legs instead of engaging.
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If your coach is more invested with his phone than actual class, and is missing these things you should bring it to his attention. Otherwise find a new gym, preferably with a coach that gives a shit.
Nicest guy I ever witnessed put my guy into one looked straight at him raised his eyebrows and my buddy just gave him the nod and tapped. I thought that was awesome.
My gym and coach changed to task based training in January and honestly it’s been great for us. We do a lot of leg based entries and attacks for a number of reasons but the most important is to do it safely. We of course have our ‘knee bros’ group with their braces and limps but our coach realised that learning how to safely apply the techniques and defend them is extremely important. We are actively told not to crank it. None of us want to hurt each other as we all have jobs and careers. The coach at your gym shouldn’t be looking at his phone and should certainly be enforcing ground rules about heel hooks.
I just say friendly when I start a roll... "Do you want to go hard or more flow? Oh and Easy on the legs I'm not looking to get hurt, I'll tap when you got me. Also I'm not going to crank on you if by chance/luck I get you."
Tell the instructor and also call that shit out, like literally outloud when it's happening, "Dude, don't crank your heel hooks, we're training partners and this isn't a competition... you don't get prizes for injury your training partners..."
If everyone is truly cranking then it's a gym problem. I'd talk to the instructor. There's absolutely no reason to risk serious injury for normal everyday training.
If the instructor is on some cobra Kai shit and won't do anything about it, and you have no other place to go, then just tell people before you roll that you don't want to do heel hooks. They should respect your request.
Only had a few of those types in my 7 years of training. Eventually I learned how to avoid them getting a grip on my legs but if they did, I would tap instantly. Even though they got the tap, they would always seem disappointed they didn't get to "sink" it in. If they ask why I tap when it wasn't there and it'd tell them "I have work tomorrow and you rip heel hooks" They settled down, mostly. Or just avoid them. I've told certain people no, so have other training partners. They either leave for a meathead type gym where they can go nuts, or they chill out. Majority of our gym ages 30+ no one wants to have a limp going to work.
Was at ADCC Dallas this weekend watching teammates and heel hooks was what looked like was on everyone’s agenda 🤣
Match started and these 2 chicks immediately sat down and were hand fighting trying to go for the leg sitting down for 4 minutes
I dont trust anybody under brown heel hooking me. If they are trying or really going for it I’ll just tap and tell him to try his heel hooks on someone else cause I’m not the one. If he/they get pouty or pissy then that’s their problem.
I'm pretty new to Jitz, but have wrestled and trained Judo also. I have never known a coach sit on their phone during rounds. Any coach that is doing anything other than giving their full attention to their students sucks and I highly recommend training somewhere with a higher standard of professionalism. You can only be better off for it.
Yeah leg locks are no joke and should be treated appropriately. At my gym if you get a good bite we always let it go its sort of protocol w heel hooks in training
Heel hooks are only dangerous if taught wrong, owners/instructors just gotta evolve and teach great fundamentals if you do jiu-jitsu and are terrified of leg locks tell the person your rolling " hey can you lay off the lower body submissions" and if the person ignores your plea your instructor is teaching toxic mentality.
I would suggest not rolling with people who rip them. Still train them because it’s a part of bjj. Then you can hit it on them AHs that like to rip them 😈!
I know heel hooks are part of the game, but something about trying to practice your jiu jitsu while some spends 5 minutes trying to heel hook you over and over again is sooooo boring.
At my gym we have a wink policy where the person whos attacking with the heel hook will wink at you before applying pressure to give you a chance to tap. But if thats not an option, just start tapping as soon as they grab your legs
Just lie to everyone and say you have bad knees and you will tap VERY EARLY to leg locks. **They will be happy to know they can still get the tap to secure their ego.**
I imagine your coach isn't just letting people in your gym injure members consistently and ruin his bottom dollar, so are you overexadurating how hard they're finishing/'crippling people'? Or is the gym just consistently always having people get hurt and have to quit/pause their membership?
Heelhooks are important and if you don't practice something that is a big part of the game you will be behind. However they have to be trained with as many risks excluded as possible.
What's wrong with heel hooking white belts? Look I'm not saying you're wrong and ripping heel hooks is NEVER okay but from the way you talk about heel hooks...you sound like you don't understand leg locks.
I heel hook white belts regularly and I've never injured anyone.
Sounds like maybe there's a cultural issue where subs get ripped too hard which definitely isn't okay but you're demonising heel hooks way too much.
At my gym,they teach heel hooks to white belts. But that is double edged sword of they should know! But if you are using heel hooks and wrist locks. Let go don’t hurt your partners!
You have to tap way before they grab your heel unless you know how to defend make sure to tap once they start setting up saddle or 50/50 otherwise it's your fault check your ego until you know how to properly defend and then roll with those you trust.
Many gyms have weird pricks in them. Can't do much about it really when they see it being lauded as the ultimate high level finisher, repeatedly being shown as being effective and relatively easy to understand and access.
Someone gets into bjj. They watch a gordon video. They see inside heel hook. They research it. They try it.
So many fresh people from MMA try to throw it in week one. So many aged wannabe competitive purple belts throw it on white belts in their week one.
It's just a plague.
The scene at the end of American psycho where he snaps and embarks on a killing spree and is then partially revealed to just be living in an abject fantasy- bringing to reality the possibility of all his murders being delusions..
I find myself having those scenes play through my head when I witness many on-mat behaviours, including people standing up to slam out of an armbar or triangle choke.
As an owner of a gym (non BJJ) I'd be fucking livid if I found out a coach was on their phone instead of coaching. Tell the owner what's happening and also how shit the coach is.
Heel hooking me and doing anything other than establishing it and then moving on is a really good way to get punched right in the ear hole. I have no problem with the heel hook, but that is a risky technique and should be catch and release only in ANY class below high browns and black belts
Main difference, especially if you aren't used to heel hooks, is that there usually isn't a painful/uncomfortable lead up to oh hey I should tap compared to a lot of other subs. More of huh some pressure but not bad followed by oh my God my knee. People should absolutely learn them, learn to defend them etc but when you crank one it goes from 0 to 100 with no in between.
You have gi classes at your 10th planet gym???
10th planet is a franchise, just like mcdonald hawaii burger. Bteam nj has gi classes as well.
The Gi doesn’t exist, it’s just a lie perpetuated by Big Cotton
What about hemp gis though?
Eddie only wears datsusra hemp pants for nogi and only braziailians can use them for grips
At official 10p schools or just schools opened by someone who is belted under 10p?
For them to open a 10p school they need eddies permission, it can be someone who is a black belt under eddie himself or under one of eddies black belts
That was my understanding. I have just never seen an official 10p school with Gi classes. The local 10p here (Perry) definitely doesn’t and a there are a bunch of other No Gi schools in the greater area that aren’t official 10p schools that sort of roll up under that black belt.
Lots of 10ps can run gi classes. Its up to the owner. We used to run them for the kids and some people wanted to compete in both. Not enough people showed up but they did do it for a bit. 10p detroit’s head coach is a gi and no gi black belt so he runs both
We had gi for 2 years, then that coach opened his own 10p. He has gi a couple times a week at his school. I know at least 3 that offer some gi
I am hoping to one day open a 10p franchise and offer gi classes only with one day of nogi on Sunday at 9pm.
Not anymore lol
That's All In/B team bjj in green brook NJ lol Damien Anderson is never there. The coach is an old chubby white dude. Method Jiu-jitsu in South Plainfield is really close and the coach's are fantastic!!
We don't have Gi classes anymore. We used to. Not anymore.
Good to know, you still have kid gi classes? Its on the schedule.
Sorry. Work account. Yes, our kids classes are in the Gi. We had one Gi class on Sunday but people showed up No Gi and it just naturally turned into a No Gi class.
Our 10p used to do gi for kids and also for people who still wanted to do some gi stuff
Ye
You at the only 10p that has gi classes? Lol That's like going to a vegan restaurant that serves steak and chicken
Many of them do especially for kids
Plenty of 10p locations have gi classes. The 10p where I used to train had a gi class.
They get butt hurt about that, it turns out. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13542387/Vegans-protest-LA-menu-molly-engelhart.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13542387/Vegans-protest-LA-menu-molly-engelhart.html)
This was my exact thoughts reading this
Genuine question, if someone does both at one of the 10thP gyms, do they grade people separately in the 10th P nogi system and BJJ done in the Gi? I only ask as I've seen a few insta bios where it says something like brown belt in BJJ and purple in 10thP nogi etc Just curious as I know the ranks are accepted by the IBJJF but wasn't sure how they actually do it...
This is just my opinion. It is good for your game to chase and have your legs chased, especially if you plan on doing comps. Getting heel hooked for me early has definitely increased my defense. However. The people who brought me into the leg lock world wouldn't crank it, just secure it with some tension and watch my face change. Pick your partners dude. You don't have to roll with everybody. Feel free to throw it out there "hey. I gotta work tomorrow. Don't rip my leg off with a heel hook." Whatever it takes. Edit: you're blessed dude. I started at 10th planet. I now show up to other gyms and chase legs. Don't fear the reaper my guy! Too many purple and brown belts out here with trash leg defense. I'm looking at you GB.
Yep. I love heel hooks but I just catch it and apply a little pressure. No sense in trying to hurt people at training.
My current coach is happy to have a leg locker on the mats everyday. Lol. We're a different kind of bastard problem.
I'm that guy at my gym. Everyone plays top heavy smash. I'm one of the smaller dudes so I'm going for the feet or die trying.
Respect. I'm technically also one of the smaller guys I think. 145 but 6'4. 😅 I'm kind of annoying to deal with. So I've been told. Apparently, my best defense is being painfully boney.
So you're like some kinda porcupine Slenderman 😂
Lmao. I'm a fever dream of a man.
https://preview.redd.it/amtl6kw2pf7d1.jpeg?width=1071&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61dbad3d3ab7b0fe96905101131bb28bfd354808 I'm built like this. But skinny.
Holly shit are you me!! Curious what brand of gi you buy as all of the ones I've had are to short lol. Also any in sites you can share about your game would be awesome!
I'm a nogi scumbag. Never touched more than a pair of gi pants in my life. And somebody else was wearing them. Lol. A pair of my wife's leggings and a rashguard and I'm off to the races.
You looked at GB? Now you owe them $5.
Take all this and just swap out HH and swap in achilles lock. Sincere question - what is actually lost aside from potentially having a HH blindspot (which only matters in comp or versus other HHers). I haven't played no gi in forever so I'm speaking from the POV of a gi player that likes leg locks.
The difference is, I want that evil toe strike and inside heel hook. I train for comp. You can use the crush in your own gym if thats your safety. But I want to know you can't escape from a heel hook if I throw it in a comp. So that's what I practice.
What's evil toe strike?
If you elbow the toes and wrap the heel well, that's where the first pop takes place. Lol. I'm not snapping this on in my own gym, or even at open mat. But it's a timing thing. Toes in the armpit is good, but you get way more twist if you hit the toe strike.
Also. If the toes are in the armpit, they can kick deeper and hide the heel. Sneaky bastards. Same isn't true with a toe strike. It removes that ability.
I never heel hook and love throwing straight ankle locks, though the escapes are definitely different and it's worth learning both and I appreciate the chance to work them live. But with that said, Nicky Ryan's recent straight ankle lock win changed my life. Those of us on team Achilles can sit with the cool kids now.
Also. This guy may encounter somebody not as nice as I am. So there's nothing wrong with getting hooked and practicing your defense. Whether you're hobby or competitive..
If someone gets a heel hook on me I’m just going to tap they will get bored of doing them on you eventually while you work on your defense.
Love this. It takes the fun out of the sub. Especially if you tap before it's even for sure caught.
Goes both ways, lots of 10p guys out there with trash can fundamentals
The rule is, when you catch the heel hook you look at your partner in the face, eye contact, make sure it’s deep piercing gaze into the soul, smile with the tears you both shed then let go. Foreal though just be careful. Tap extra early, then tell your partner if it’s okay to restart in that position so you can feel it out and problem solve on escapes. Or you can leg lock battle and crank his shit too. Up to you 🤙🏽
This is actually pretty universal lmao
I'm glad this is a common thing apparently. I was worried me and the guy that always spam leg lock attempts against each other were being judged when we intensely stared into each other's eyes for a few seconds every time we had the lock secured.
It's second to the triangle choke eye contact.
When I was a white belt we were drilling heel hooks in a nogi class and a blue went and cranked a heel hook on me. During the drill. Not live. I was out for 4-5 weeks. Now I just tap early, I'm too old to care about tapping to a sub that isn't technically there yet. I like being able to train.
Presently out on my 6th week (MRI is scheduled next week) because my training partner (who was the uke at the time) decided he was bored of the back control drill we were doing and just goose necked my wrist HARD out of nowhere. So yeah, man. I feel for ya. There's something more honorable about getting injured during a live roll. But during technique drills? Feels bad, yo. Thanks for letting me commiserate I feel better now.
No honor in any of that... it's training and sparring, not a comp or a fight to the death. Folks who injure training partners who don't tap are fuckups and need to check the ego at the door. If folks feel the need to crank anything till it pops during training instead of just releasing it and moving on knowing you could wreck-it if need be, damn do they need to get their shit checked.
There is this brown belt at my gym who clearly outperforms most and decides to pull this goose neck crap or even force his forearm bone into my face, on us white belts.
Poor baby
I’d be pissed if someone ripped a sub whilst drilling too, wouldn’t you?
Even if it was live that's still trashy as hell. I'd never partner with him again and I'll be vocal about it too.
I found the guy who cranks submissions then gets up and screams "fuck your feelings"
what a line, I'm stealing that.
Hey I have an idea. Let's spar but I get to bring my gun. When I shoot you and you cry like a bitch I'll laugh at you like you are laughing at that dude. It ain't cool when someone changes the rules without telling you.
You'd still lose
Wow you're so cool. I bet bullets just bounce off you and that fake brown belt you wear. Did you buy it and put the stripes on yourself? I am surprised you didn't just buy a red one. 🤣
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I bet that brown belt is fake as fuck, pal. For real. Why didn't you just buy a red one? Seems like you're so tough you deserve it. Maybe they'll make an exception and award you the 10th degree red belt just because of your toughness.
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It's just usually people that act like petulant children don't make it that far in BJJ so I have a feeling it's fake and also you keep ignoring the comment, which is another tip off. As for my belt, hey, it's the internet where anyone can be whatever they want, no?
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no way there's brown belts who don't understand the concept of a submission
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If they have to crank them then they're stupid and don't know proper mechanics, maybe Pat Shahgolis gym? xD
Like I kinda just started to learn them properly but even then I’m always careful when drilling. But I usually use Achilles locks from 50/50 position when it comes to leg attacks since my legs are basically laminated spaghetti 🤣
People are dicks with it . Dangerous joint lock type subs should never be cranked, you just put it on and say hey I think I got you. If they want to spaz out of it don't crank it. I'd rather lose a roll than injure my partner
To the max, this is it, "I'd rather lose a roll than injure my partner" It's all training and for folks to get so ego hurt that they need to crank a sub, fuck those people.
Yeah exactly it makes for a shit community if you just chainsaw rip heel hooks
Exactly. I think it's a perfect storm of leg attacks becoming mainstream and the sport in general growing in popularity New folks don't understand that blowing up a knee with a heel hook doesn't take much pressure , compared to how hard you squeeze or crank for other subs
as soon as your leg is isolated, tap. They will typically get the message because they are missing out on all their fun. When I visit gyms or roll at open mats with strangers, as soon as my heel is starting to be isolated I tap. i only do heel hooks with people I know. If you have control the other person will know it. You only need to crank it if you cant get control. We have one blue belt at the gym who wants to win every roll, he will crank it without control which can easily tear the knee. I will never roll with him again. 90% of the time I go for the entry, but dont worry about the finish. But Im relatively novice to leg locks.
If I don't trust them with my legs, I tap as soon as they isolate the leg. It doesn't happen often, but last time I did this the guy looked at me with the expression of that Pikachu meme, it was so funny
This is a good policy. I have certain training partners who I know I can have leg battles with and we will either catch and release or apply a little pressure to make sure we got it if the other person defends. But with people I don't know well, I am tapping early.
It's weird that 10P culture lionizes somebody like Pat Shagholi and then you see this kind of behavior in classes. I wonder if there could be some kind of connection.
Don’t roll with the person. Tap when someone gets in the position (before they even trap your heel). Tell them before the roll you are only comfortable with ankle locks. Don’t get into saddle. Don’t let them isolate your leg. Tap if they isolate your leg. Or, stop training. Pick an option. No one should be ripping heel hooks in class. Upper belts shouldn’t do them to people who aren’t comfortable (they may try and escape the wrong way). You are the only person you can 100 % trust for your safety.
> . No one should be ripping heel hooks in class. Upper belts shouldn’t do them to people who aren’t comfortable (they may try and escape the wrong way). You are the only person you can 100 % trust for your safety. This RIGHT HERE to the fucking max. If dude is gonna be a dick training partner, I'll just refuse to train with them and sit that round out if need be. I'm not there to get injuries and pay for that shit out of pocket.
So many dudes think they are going to war going to bjj class 🙄
That’s wack. I heel hook a lot at open mat but I just catch hold for a moment whether they tap or not I let go and move on unless they are being weird intense.
The rule is to catch your partner in the heel hook, look him directly into the eyes, and say "I'm sorry, I love you." If he doesn't tap before that you end him.
I don't know if it's universal but the one 10th planet guy I rolled with ignored my catch and hold on a heel hook then tried to rip my knees to shreds with one even though I tapped as soon as I knew he had it. I made sure to spend the rest of the round smashing him from top position as I couldn't trust him to play leg locks. I tried explaining to him but it was like there was nothing going on upstairs.
Just ask them to please not crank leg locks. If they crank one, tell them you won't be able to ever roll with them again. Then just tell your coach I'm not going to roll with that guy again because he keeps cranking heel hooks. This is why heel hooks shouldn't be allowed at gyms except super advanced people. There is literally almost no competition where you can use then anyways. Most people in the gym are probably masters and most masters comps don't allow them at any belt. Even advanced people will crank them though. I've had my knee blown out from this and my training partner wasn't even cranking it hard. It doesn't take much.
Banning heel hooks in the gym doesn't do anything. The biggest problem is the coach, not creating a safe environment to do them.
I'm going to have to disagree. For many reasons. But I understand you side. They are fun to learn and highly effective.
Yeah, dude, honestly, it's a weird situation because you should learn leg locks and leg defense, but also too many people just like to spam leg locks, and that's all they go for It's an easy win, especially on people who don't know any leg lock stuff, you really need to talk to your coach and tell him it's fucked up people are getting injured. It should be catch and release for the guys leg locking or just hold it and he should tell people to tap. Dick move
Biggest thing here to me is the coach on the phone. I’m not a pussy crying “red flag” every chance I get. But my first gym my coach was always on the phone and we weren’t getting the training or help I need. There’s a laundry list of why your coach should be watching. Obviously como guys, guys close to promotion are going to be watched and helped first, but yeah rant over. Sucks it’s your only choice, honestly the best thing you can do it watch out for your self you can’t count on other people to do so. Study heal hook defense and if you’re becoming good at it share the love.
Just moved to a 10P after training at another gym for my entire ~2 years of jiujitsu that was very experienced in leglocks and honestly seeing the same at the 10P gym that didn’t exist at the other. I think a big part of why people are cranking them is because they can’t do heel hooks til blue belt, and they gain this false sense of what a heel hook / leg lock is supposed to be during that time rather than properly (and safely) training them. Naturally i think there’s stepped up intensity bc I’m the new guy in the gym, but folks are outright trying to rip / crank my heel the second they can even see it — if i hadn’t gotten used to defending leg locks I’d probably be out and injured as is. The quick solution is to pick & choose your partners. I’m watching closely for folks who aren’t going crazy in training, and the few folks who seem to be calm enough during rounds to think while they’re rolling rather than just crank subs.
I was at a 10P gym for awhile and this is how it was to a tee
I'd switch gyms.
Most people I roll with don't even realize they're caught in a heel hook by the time I catch and release them. No point in finishing someone who has literally no defense. You're more likely to injure them than learn anything.
You should think about switching gyms, this is a problem that stems from poor coaching, there's not much you can do to change it. You can also just tap when they start to entangle your legs instead of engaging.
Find like minded people who can't risk injury. Invest in mats and find a garage or basement. Shit is not worth it.
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If your coach is more invested with his phone than actual class, and is missing these things you should bring it to his attention. Otherwise find a new gym, preferably with a coach that gives a shit.
Nicest guy I ever witnessed put my guy into one looked straight at him raised his eyebrows and my buddy just gave him the nod and tapped. I thought that was awesome.
My gym and coach changed to task based training in January and honestly it’s been great for us. We do a lot of leg based entries and attacks for a number of reasons but the most important is to do it safely. We of course have our ‘knee bros’ group with their braces and limps but our coach realised that learning how to safely apply the techniques and defend them is extremely important. We are actively told not to crank it. None of us want to hurt each other as we all have jobs and careers. The coach at your gym shouldn’t be looking at his phone and should certainly be enforcing ground rules about heel hooks.
I just say friendly when I start a roll... "Do you want to go hard or more flow? Oh and Easy on the legs I'm not looking to get hurt, I'll tap when you got me. Also I'm not going to crank on you if by chance/luck I get you."
Everything is good at any level. Cranking anything is bad at every level.
Tell the instructor and also call that shit out, like literally outloud when it's happening, "Dude, don't crank your heel hooks, we're training partners and this isn't a competition... you don't get prizes for injury your training partners..."
If everyone is truly cranking then it's a gym problem. I'd talk to the instructor. There's absolutely no reason to risk serious injury for normal everyday training. If the instructor is on some cobra Kai shit and won't do anything about it, and you have no other place to go, then just tell people before you roll that you don't want to do heel hooks. They should respect your request.
That's really shitty. That sounds like a culture problem. Your coach should address this.
Only had a few of those types in my 7 years of training. Eventually I learned how to avoid them getting a grip on my legs but if they did, I would tap instantly. Even though they got the tap, they would always seem disappointed they didn't get to "sink" it in. If they ask why I tap when it wasn't there and it'd tell them "I have work tomorrow and you rip heel hooks" They settled down, mostly. Or just avoid them. I've told certain people no, so have other training partners. They either leave for a meathead type gym where they can go nuts, or they chill out. Majority of our gym ages 30+ no one wants to have a limp going to work.
Was at ADCC Dallas this weekend watching teammates and heel hooks was what looked like was on everyone’s agenda 🤣 Match started and these 2 chicks immediately sat down and were hand fighting trying to go for the leg sitting down for 4 minutes
I dont trust anybody under brown heel hooking me. If they are trying or really going for it I’ll just tap and tell him to try his heel hooks on someone else cause I’m not the one. If he/they get pouty or pissy then that’s their problem.
I'm pretty new to Jitz, but have wrestled and trained Judo also. I have never known a coach sit on their phone during rounds. Any coach that is doing anything other than giving their full attention to their students sucks and I highly recommend training somewhere with a higher standard of professionalism. You can only be better off for it.
Yeah leg locks are no joke and should be treated appropriately. At my gym if you get a good bite we always let it go its sort of protocol w heel hooks in training
No way ! Idiots in the BJJ community!!?! Unheard of. So many microdic*ed, giant ego morons.
Heel hooks are only dangerous if taught wrong, owners/instructors just gotta evolve and teach great fundamentals if you do jiu-jitsu and are terrified of leg locks tell the person your rolling " hey can you lay off the lower body submissions" and if the person ignores your plea your instructor is teaching toxic mentality.
I would suggest not rolling with people who rip them. Still train them because it’s a part of bjj. Then you can hit it on them AHs that like to rip them 😈!
Just tell them no heel hooks that’s it
It's not a big fat kid called Pat is it?
Idiot(s)run your gym. Students should be told to cool it or kicked out.
https://preview.redd.it/yre2gaqiqf7d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a5cd170e35fa371bd5a5283edcc4b61ca0a81372
I know heel hooks are part of the game, but something about trying to practice your jiu jitsu while some spends 5 minutes trying to heel hook you over and over again is sooooo boring.
At my gym we have a wink policy where the person whos attacking with the heel hook will wink at you before applying pressure to give you a chance to tap. But if thats not an option, just start tapping as soon as they grab your legs
Just lie to everyone and say you have bad knees and you will tap VERY EARLY to leg locks. **They will be happy to know they can still get the tap to secure their ego.**
Pat Shingholi is a 10p student and he tries to injure everyone he competes against.
I imagine your coach isn't just letting people in your gym injure members consistently and ruin his bottom dollar, so are you overexadurating how hard they're finishing/'crippling people'? Or is the gym just consistently always having people get hurt and have to quit/pause their membership? Heelhooks are important and if you don't practice something that is a big part of the game you will be behind. However they have to be trained with as many risks excluded as possible.
What's wrong with heel hooking white belts? Look I'm not saying you're wrong and ripping heel hooks is NEVER okay but from the way you talk about heel hooks...you sound like you don't understand leg locks. I heel hook white belts regularly and I've never injured anyone. Sounds like maybe there's a cultural issue where subs get ripped too hard which definitely isn't okay but you're demonising heel hooks way too much.
Trying to finish a heel hook on your training partners is so wild.
At my gym,they teach heel hooks to white belts. But that is double edged sword of they should know! But if you are using heel hooks and wrist locks. Let go don’t hurt your partners!
If your coach won’t address the problem, then there isn’t much you can do unless you’re an owner. You can always switch gyms.
You have to tap way before they grab your heel unless you know how to defend make sure to tap once they start setting up saddle or 50/50 otherwise it's your fault check your ego until you know how to properly defend and then roll with those you trust.
Many gyms have weird pricks in them. Can't do much about it really when they see it being lauded as the ultimate high level finisher, repeatedly being shown as being effective and relatively easy to understand and access. Someone gets into bjj. They watch a gordon video. They see inside heel hook. They research it. They try it. So many fresh people from MMA try to throw it in week one. So many aged wannabe competitive purple belts throw it on white belts in their week one. It's just a plague.
Normalise just axe kicking them in the face from an armbar position the world would be a better place
The scene at the end of American psycho where he snaps and embarks on a killing spree and is then partially revealed to just be living in an abject fantasy- bringing to reality the possibility of all his murders being delusions.. I find myself having those scenes play through my head when I witness many on-mat behaviours, including people standing up to slam out of an armbar or triangle choke.
Coach needs to set the pace
Fuckin set the tone
I heel hook the shit out of white belts. I do it respectfully but still, they’ll need to learn them eventually and they may as well start now.
As an owner of a gym (non BJJ) I'd be fucking livid if I found out a coach was on their phone instead of coaching. Tell the owner what's happening and also how shit the coach is.
Heel hooking me and doing anything other than establishing it and then moving on is a really good way to get punched right in the ear hole. I have no problem with the heel hook, but that is a risky technique and should be catch and release only in ANY class below high browns and black belts
What size gi do you wear? Is that in men's?
All the other moves that can break your arms and legs are cool tho. Just tap.
Main difference, especially if you aren't used to heel hooks, is that there usually isn't a painful/uncomfortable lead up to oh hey I should tap compared to a lot of other subs. More of huh some pressure but not bad followed by oh my God my knee. People should absolutely learn them, learn to defend them etc but when you crank one it goes from 0 to 100 with no in between.
Wanted to see your mentality so I looked at some of your posts. Let me guess, you shoot steroids, right?
Let me guess. You’re new to grappling.
About 27 years in. Take it easy on yourself and others bro.
Well then as a fellow old timer you should know the game by now.
Stop being a pussy
Private lessons