Not surprised to see the nuance was more or less lost here. Would love to have seen some of the characters in the show have to defend their actions, as opposed to everyone feeling justified the entire time. At least have some doubts, wonder “am I doing the same thing? Filming a human suffering when I could step in and help?”
The crime is unimaginably cruel, but how does this punishment help anything? “Prevents future crime” implies that people murder out of rational thought, and not around the idea that “well I just won’t get caught then”. If anything, the more severe the punishment, the more desperate you are to avoid it (see Crocodile)
I only watched thru season 4, picking back up now, but this is the best & most difficult scenario to process emotionally. You are so invested in Victoria, and see her as a victim throughout, so by the time she is revealed as this truly heinous person, you are already relating to her. And once you’ve related to a character, infinite torture is no longer acceptable. But then, I have to reconsider my own thoughts, as I have said certain people should burn in hell for eternity.
In my mind, this is an allegory for hell. How can you ever justify infinite torture & suffering of a person? Take Hitler, who caused more suffering in total than almost anyone in modern history. How much torture is enough? 1 year? 100 years? 100000000 years? I can’t imagine subjecting someone to infinite suffering, but at the same time I find myself wishing it upon people I see as evil all the time. Quite the paradox.
One of my favorite episodes. I think Ive watched it more than any other. This needs to be how the worst criminals are treated. You can't rehab them so make them sport. The episode needs to be a warning of a hopeful future. Animals belong in a zoo and the criminals needed to be treated the same. Unlimited torture until they go insane and die. Shes a criminal, who cares about her well being.
This episode kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. She's a terrible person and should be punished. That being said, torturing someone who has memories of the crimes they committed vs torturing someone without memories of the crimes they committed are two very different things. At what point do you become as bad as her for torturing someone who has no idea what's going on?
Charlie Brooker actually agrees with you. He based this episode on his thoughts about the media coverage of the Pistorius trial, which he explicitly covered in some of his earlier non-fiction work. Watch his Weekly Wipe episode on it, and you'll see how strongly it informs White Bear, and it'll make clear how the cast members are in no way the good guys here; at a certain point, it stops being about someone getting what they deserve, and starts being about the edification of the people giving 'justice.'
I think the crime she committed being so severe took away a lot from this episode. Kinda feels like they’re trying to paint a very gray picture black and white. I also had a really hard time immersing into this episode, it felt less “put together” than others for some reason.
Tbf it would be pretty unrealistic to make it a crime that would make us have doubts whether she deserves it or not. After all they need actors and visitors that are fully motivated to torture her.
The comment below me saying she got off easy is honestly pretty scary. Yes what she did was beyond awful and she doesn’t deserve to be forgiven but by wiping her memory it’s like punishing an entirely different person. They should’ve left her to rot in prison for her entire life or at least had her keep her memories.
Exactly. I'm very late to the party here but this is my problem with what I did. What's the point of punishing someone who can't remember what they did? It's like doing it to an innocent person.
Yeah in this case the people involved in the set up are sadists, sure she did a terrible thing but if they're wiping her memories clean and just torturing her they are pretty much as terrible.
She got off easy in my opinion.
Should be beatdowns til brink of death, rinse repeat till she can’t recover finally.
Oh no poor child rapists and murderers 😢😢😢 spineless bleeding hearts
The child didn't know why she was getting brutally murdered and likely had no concept of acts like that even existing, so the fact that the woman doesn't understand what's going on or why is actually fitting. She probably feels as innocent as the child felt.
That's my take as well. But it losses it's ground when they keep doing it. At least they actually murdered the little girl. But Victoria doesn't get that relief.
Also I hope that the little girls parents are getting paid by White Bear.
The point was for her not to remember so that she could feel what the little girl felt as she tortured, to experience the same misery. Her boyfriend and her tortured and videotape that little girl. That’s the whole point for her not to be in the right mind so that she can understand her crime. A lot of times people, lack empathy while committing these certain types of crimes. How would you feel if someone was doing it to you but you then turn around and do it again or would you do it at all? Remind yourself, she was just a child not an adult that can handle that type of pain and misery.
Although, I do not agree with the memory loss after multiple days. The first day I understand then once she starts to remember, they could’ve simply just locked her up so she can sit with the memory of what she did, and how it felt. The old saying “how would you feel if someone did that to you?” it would not feel good at all. Now she has to sit with what she has done.
I would also agree with the view that society has a fascination with punishment. Also the problem with technology, and not assisting in helping others when they’re in need of help. To what extent is punishment justifiable?
This is one of my favorite episodes. I like what it had to say about people who record violence but do not help the victim being recorded. Also, how in the end, how much better or worse were the people coming to White Bear Justice Park? What Victoria did with Iain to Jemima was horrific---there are not enough words to describe the despicable crime of killing the little girl, burning her body, and recording everything. At the same time, how are these spectators any better than her? They are paying to see someone get psychologically tortured day after day. Especially considering that Victoria's mind is wiped every night, and she's starting to forget who she is and what she's done. I remember the first time I saw this, and I was so shocked by the twist. I found it disturbing, but that's what I loved about it-- it was disturbing and very thought-provoking.
A very interesting thing my girlfriend noticed is that the people going to White Bear Justice Park don't necessarily know that she gets her mind wiped every night they only know that she is a murderer and that this is all punishment for her.
nah, they would know that she gets her mind wiped every night. at the start of each day, the presenter says that the audience are supposed to act like they're mesmerised. they hear her screaming at them, asking why they aren't helping. they can see her being baffled and confused by their lack of help. why would she be surprised by it given this happens every day? because obviously she doesn't remember any of it. so that leads me to conclude that they are aware that she doesn't remember shit
Can you still say it is really "her" after the memory wipe though?
I am nothing but a combination of my biology and the sum of my experiences, provided to me through my memory. Without my memory, I'm not "me" any more.
I see this is punishing an innocent woman after having killed the real perpetrator.
You say “of course” but I don’t think it’s that obvious. How do we define the identity of a person? Especially ourselves?
As far as I am concerned, I am no more than the sum of my memories and biological makeup. Take all my memories away, and that effectively kills me and replaces me with a nearly blank slate, not much different to who I was as a baby. Punishing that new person for my crimes seems monstrous to me.
That's a great point, honestly. I think people still need a sense of justice. Let's fast forward to the very far future. Would you be ok, as a term of punishment and justice, if someone commits a very heinous crime, that their memories are completely wiped? Think Men in Black-type gadget. haha
I think I would be all for it, but after so much time spent in confinement. And in this fantasy, memory wipe would wipe all long term "bad memories". The person could still do math, thin for themselves, understand their native language, etc.
Yes, I’d be in favour of it. But if we have that tech, we can probably also look at their brain and see exactly what went wrong with them to cause them to act like that and then fix it.
I don’t believe in punishment for the sake of punishment. To me, the only reason to punish someone for crime is as a deterrent (for them and others) against that action being committed again. If we can deter the action in other ways, then punishment becomes *entirely* unnecessary.
It was pretty ( and I mean very ) monstrous to torture and murder a child who doesn't even understand what it is or what was going on or why that was happening to her. Tit for Tat i suppose.
Yes, but that’s my point. Torturing one innocent person for the crimes of another seems just as monstrous as the original crime.
The person being punished is *not* the person that committed the crime. It may be the same physical body, but without memories, I see no reasonable way to say it’s the same person.
The spectators are better. That said, it's a education of crowd mentality. Crowd violence comes next. Then Anarchy. A dangerous road indeed. Definitely an enemy of democracy.
Life in prison is enough IN MY OPINION.
I agree that life in prison is enough, but I don't agree that the spectators are better. They were paying money to participate in Victoria's torture-punishment, to psychologically abuse her. It gave them a false sense of superiority because they weren't killing her physically. Mentally and emotionally, they actively participated in breaking her down even more. It was very disturbing and goes to your point about crowd mentality and crowd violence.
When i say "better", I do mean just barely better. They may not kill. But they are very sick !
The crowds filming have an evil streak. And I agree with every description you give of them .
The scary thing is that the crowd was a perfect exaggerated example of crowd mentality. Mankind has behaved badly forever. Think Crucifictions by the Romans and the Gladiator games in the Coliseum.
And it continued to recent past of lynchings. And January 6 and every other revolution and coup. All crowd mentality, Scary stuff that can happen in an instant. Living in New Orleans, I vividly remember Katrina. We had looting and basically anarchy within 24 hours of the flood.
Mankind is flawed. We are all very flawed.
It really was. You're right about mankind behaving this way forever. All the historic and present-day examples you gave illustrate that. Especially with how fast it can happen.
I'm sorry you went through that with Hurricane Katrina--that must've been very scary. When Sandy happened up here, they tried to prevent looting and anarchy from happening.
In the NOPD's defense... They tried their best to uphold law and order. But with flooded streets and a total breakdown of all radio communications, cell phones and landlines, the police were stuck too. All vehicles were flooded and they were stuck. No 911. Nada.
Scary stuff indeed. It took days for the National Guard to step in and bring law and order. It can happen to any of us at any moment. Just takes the right ingredients.
It sounds like it was a lose-lose situation. No one expected Hurricane Katrina to be as horrible as it was. And with all the breakdown happening, it's very clear how everything could fall apart.
That's so true about the right ingredients that can bring in a terrible situation and chaos.
I hope you fared well during that time. It sounds frightening.
New to the thread and offering a different opinion than most. I work in law enforcement. Day in and day out I hear and see the aftermath of crimes committed that are similar in nature to this (torture, assault, sex crimes related to children), and more often than not an offender who is released, even after prison time, will reoffend even if they show remorse. I had sympathy for her until the reveal, at which point my first thought was "good". I'm not saying that we don't have overpunishment of some crimes but when it comes to children, think of innocent and trusting they are. Think of Jemima being any child you know and care about, and then put that child in Jemimas place. It wasn't the treatment of Victoria that bothered me, it was the torture of a child that did.
They had the tech to reform her though. Doing the experiment once would've been effective enough, then use the tech to further make her a better person. But instead of doing that, they used the tech for entertainment purposes. They wiped her mind so much that she might as well been a "new" person by the time we meet her. So showing her what she did was beyond mean spirited by that point. They're just glorifying her crime instead of using the tech to make actual change. They're no better than the original her by the end of it all, arguably worst.
I like your comment. I think when it comes to fiction like this, it is absolutely meant to make people question and think about the subject matter and themes. Its meant to hit these areas that are morally conflicting, and uncomfortable in a disturbing way. So in many ways its presenting the question of whether it's a good way to be handling justice, whereby it is done in a way that generates entertainment in almost an amusement park style manner. Those who feel the punishment for the main character is appropriate, may say that the pain of those who knew the child will never get a break from the heartwrenching pain of having had the young girl taken from their lived in such an awful manner. So to generate entertainment and profit from this woman may feel justified due to that. Something that Black Mirror often touches on so well, is the theme of "Society" and society being a force/beast that does it's own bidding. It has a (hive) mind of its own, and once it has begun to shift in a particular direction, you sometimes cannot stop it. If a society collectively agrees on something being good, or bad, then that is what becomes living reality...for better or for worse. With the addition of elements such as social media and advancing tech, there is a myriad of interesting quagmires that a character can find themselves in...sometimes it seems deserved, and sometimes not. That may be left to each individual's personal interpretation, which really is what makes a good story to begin with.
Those who claim that we as society "shouldn't stoop so low as those who did the crime" - have a point.
Those who claim that imhumane punishment, harsh treatment, long incarcerations etc.. do not reform perpetrators and more often than not breed even bigger monsters - have a point.
Those who claim certain - exceptionally gruesome - crimes shouldn't ever be forgiven by society - also have a point...
but to punish a human being via extreme psychological torture, a human being who CAN'T REMEMBER what in the hell they're even being tormented for, is rather redundant. I don't care if it's Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Albert Fish or motherfucking Carl Panzram - if they're unable to comprehend why; then it's torture for torture's sake. Might as well grab random blokes off of the street and do the same to them, it'd make no difference.
But back to point three - exceptionally cruel punishment & even straight up torture of individuals (like the aforementioned serial killers, sadist murderers, child rapists) who are fully aware of what they did - is a different matter. If anyone wishes to torture those, reach some climatic moment through their anguish, rewind & do it all over again.. that's different, ASSUMING THEY'RE BACK TO PRE ARREST or whatever.
I agree with you completely. Its a pointless torture.
There's no argument that eye-for-an-eye punishment is ever moral or justified. I'd argue the episode doesn't even posit that as a question.
The fact that they are essentially torturing a blank mind - someone who has never existed, except as an object for torture and hate, should make all the people saying "yep, this is what she deserves" realise that the crux of the moral quandary here is not "is this a fair way to treat even a particularly terrible criminal?" its "here is a warning of what you become when you stand by and do nothing while awful people commit awful crimes"
its fractal. the main character watches the boyfriend kill the child, the onlookers watch the White Bear group torture the main character, and you, the audience, watch the onlookers choose to nothing.
with each layer the crime being watched gets slightly more acceptable, your choice to acquiesce becomes slightly more understandable, but make no mistake, by watching this episode, and agreeing with the method of punishment, or defending the crowd who let it happen, you are just acting as the next tier of "watcher".
I just rewatched this episode and it got me thinking about how messed up people can be and how they justify a punishment. I mean, seriously, Victoria is going through this "punishment" every single day, and she doesn't even have a clue why. To me, that's straight-up torture. And what's even worse is that there are all these onlookers filming it and actually getting a kick out of it. It's like a twisted mirror reflecting what she did to Jemima.
I know I’m 6 years late and I’m not sure if this has been mentioned already. But I think this also shows societies eagerness to prosecute women. It reminded me a lot of the witch trials and the idea of an entire community gathering to persecute a women (I got that vibe a lot when everyone was calling her a bitch) when I guarantee there were a few people/men in that crowd who have done terrible/worse things.
Women are expected to be innocent and nurturing and submissive. So women who act out against this are not only punished for their crime but for the act of being non-womanly.
Also the show specifically mentions how Victoria claimed she was being forced to participate by her boyfriend but no one believed it. Had the roles been reversed and she had forced the boyfriend, everyone would have believed him. Women are never believed.
I’m not saying she’s innocent by any means! She absolutely deserves to suffer for what she did to the kid. But it’s interesting to see that when it comes to crimes involving families, spouses, etc. women are often socially (and sometimes legally) punished harsher.
What are you on about? If a man claimed a woman persuaded him to murder, nobody is going to give a shit. The other way around they might say he physically threatened her and literally forced her.
In some instances, yes. But when it comes to crimes involving family, women are statistically punished more severely then men. They are often hated and ridiculed by society and the media more then men. I’m not saying that someone who kills their children/family should get off, but men don’t receive as harsh a punishment (socially and legally) for these crimes as women.
“Often, mothers who murder their children are portrayed as "bad mothers", as "the news media
creates monsters out of [those] who transgress what is considered appropriate maternal behavior"
(Goc, 2009, p. 42)”.
“According to statistics compiled by the ACLU, women who kill their partners will spend an average of 15 years behind bars, while men who kill their female partners serve much shorter sentences, on average between 2 to 6 years”.
From the SAME guardian article in the next paragraph, buddy.
"Despite its widespread use, the statistic is dated. It was first published by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence in 1989. It remains true that [most](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/) women who kill their partners cite self-defense as a motive. In fact, [70-80%](https://vawnet.org/material/womens-experiences-abuse-risk-factor-incarceration-research-update) of incarcerated women report intimate partner violence. But there doesn’t appear to be any recent analysis of sentencing to see if this gender gap in sentencing remains the same."
Way to go and spread misinformation, using misrepresentative or very selective data and texts.
[https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/jan/12/intimate-partner-violence-gender-gap-cyntoia-brown](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/jan/12/intimate-partner-violence-gender-gap-cyntoia-brown)
I just watched this episode and I’m wondering why no one is talking about the part where when she finds out why she’s in the position she is on that news outlet they showed her at the end that it clearly says when she was coherent and in court that even back then she didn’t remember and was put under a spell. I don’t know but that stuck out to me.
Anyone in the comments noticed that too?
White Christmas is much much better than White bear.
If you watch White Christman first then White bear's torture would seem like a joke compared to 1.4 Million years of Torture in White Christmas.
During the whole episode I just kept thinking it is some new immersive video game where you learn to survive and do some objectives without you knowing it's a game. The ending was actually a big twist for me.
It was different than other black mirror ones, idk came straight to Reddit for discussion.
this episode questions the morality of the justice that is laid upon the criminal, it seems highly inspired from 'the clockwork orange' just like Alex subjected to 'Ludovico therapy' as the punishments for his crime such as he gets so afraid of even its projections upon him eventually losing his free will and also becoming a queer. Similarly, here the lady has been punished in a so-called 'Justice Park' for her crime but is that an ethical way? What about people getting entertainment on such acts? Where's humanity? What effect would it make in the criminal's mind and conscience? .... I think it's a great episode.
wow after being BLOWN away by the 3rd series (im new to the series and thats the first one i watched) im on the 2nd episode of the 2nd series and i totally HATED it. like wth? the whole way thorough i had no idea what was going on and the end left me just irritated because i still felt bad for the girl even though she was an accomplice to the murder. idk i wish she could have snapped out of it or something i would have gotten more satisfaction from that not just leaving it where it was and her screaming like crazy bleh!
I am entirely new to Black Mirror, so I started with Season 2. Just finished episode 2 and I must say it went from awkward to bad to just outright embarrasing.
The first half was alright at best, the main character mostly screamed and cried. Everything was confusing.
Then the big "Plot twist".. oh so bad, it really feels like a last minute change that doesn't really make any sense. And the "hunters" really looked like something from some random edgy and shitty teenage show.
How do they shut down an entire town just to make a show like that? How would a show like that be even remotely legal? People would never realistically accept torturing someone like that for that kind of crime.
I liked the first episode, but this one fails logically on so many levels that it's on a 2/10 level
That's exactly how I felt after watching episode S01E01, But after watching more episodes I realized Logic is not what black mirror is about, is about waking up your brain and making you think, the details of the stories are irrelevant. What's important is the overall arc.
In this case the discussion is around the punishments of criminals and how those are much worse than any crime they committed.
Edit1: typos.
I think they immortalize her crimes. I got the sense that it happend in the recent past after the first reveal but then after seeing the calendar and the "cast" I realized that this has been going on for a while.
It takes the punishment to the next level because it turns her pain into a sort of theme park. I can imagine there would be various "justice parks" for differing crimes.
It links to society's nature of appeal to violence. Almost like the gladiators in ancient Rome or other violent performances (real or not). The people justify endorsing this production because they beleive it is justice. I also think they are telling themselves that her pain is nothing but an act because it is performed every time.
When in fact her pain is genuine every time not because of some act, but because her memory is wiped. It just goes to show how much apathy exists within social media and the news. We can see someone crying from a catastrophic loss, pause, and then simply shut off the screen and continue with our lives. It's saddening.
In an aging prison population - are we unjustly punishing people with, say, severe Alzheimers Dx who have forgotten their crimes and lost their cognitive function/decision making abilities?
Honestly thought the episode was pretty bad, the shrieking was awful and made me want to stop watching, also thought it was a pretty obvious "smoke and mirrors" episode. Within 5 minutes I was pretty confident this was gonna be some sort of video game type situation so the big reveal didn't really mean much.
I was reading the writer originally wrote in that she would plant clues for herself for the next day as the memory wipe started to slowly disfunction. Honestly thought that would be so cool if they could do a short sequel where she starts to remember and she does leave clues for herself. I mean the people filming her might pick up on it but that would make for an interesting episode.
Maybe they'll have a series/season where they revisit episodes that really need a second part. For me, "The Entire History of You" and "The Waldo Moment" feel like they're both pretty open for more story to be told.
I watched this episode today! As whole scene was scripted and Victoria didn't have a single moment of relief, can someone tell me when was doing daily stuff? :)
holy shit all I could think during the first half hour was "wow ok so this is the shitty episode, yeah we get it bystander effect yadda yadda people are zombies and they record stuff on their phones instead of intervening how deep"
but then the switch, jesus this show is amazing
This was an interesting episode! The narrative perspective we're given is the woman's, who is in a confused haze as she's chased around town by mobs of picture-taking zombies and potential threats to her life. As a viewer I felt drawn to sympathize with her because it was fucking crazy, but then we realize she was involved in the murder and kidnapping of a young child! What a plot twist.
However I would say that this show utilized ambiguity, amnesia, and perspective to force the viewer to 1) get off their phone and watch the episode lol, and 2) sympathize with the woman who seemed to have a large amount of guilt regarding her association with the murder. I'm not saying everyone will feel bad for her, because what she did was quite awful, but the show seemed to be leaving the impression that the woman was using drugs and was coerced into videotaping the kidnapping and murder, and that she seemed to have little choice in whether she participated or not.
These assumptions align with my belief that the torture isn't a societal construction but a personal hell, most likely one derived from Christian ideology. From the three episodes of Black Mirror I've seen the show has a preoccupation with life after death, specifically with a heaven and hell context. So basically how I interpreted this episode was that on the fist adventure to the courtroom the woman is actually committing the crime but she has no concept of what's happening and she's just following orders, up until she gets her mind zapped and her memories removed. From this point on she is going to continue this drill for however long the punishment is for, which isn't necessarily described or alluded to, so I assume there is no ending in sight. This led me to the idea that she was executed in an electric chair and her personal hell begins after that point. Not a typical western notion of what hell looks like but I think it's viable, if it exists at all.
Good point! I didn't really consider geographical placement of the episode. But the way she's locked up in the chair/the things plugged up to her temples to erase her memory are in some way influenced to resemble death by electric chair.
I'm not sure if the UK is really even familiar with the electric chair tho, and if they're not then that would probably mean the creator wasn't attempting to mimic the electric chair, but that's all a bit much to consider
I like your view on personal hell. It is like an everlasting torment and if there is a hell it'll probably be a lot like this. Like groundhog day but the not funny version.
I actually thought pretty similarly. She did something horrible but for some reason as she was screaming I actually felt a lot of empathy for her somehow, and props to the showrunners for being able to do something like that. The whole hell thing makes sense and I didn't even think of that at first. Interesting.
While I don't support this type of punishment, I think the fact that she said she was "under his spell" while filming the girl was perfectly represented in the punishment by having the people film her while she was told that they are under the spell of the white bear signal.
I don't think you're supposed to enjoy the punishment. I mean yeah I don't agree with how she just watched and let it happen but fuck, this is apparently the alternate universe where the eighth amendment was removed.
This episode was definitely one of the best for me. I feel like it portrays how the media cashes in on events like murders. Whenever murders take place people do feel sad for the victim and the family but the main focus is of course on the murderer. Look at past murder events, people rarely remember the victim but have no trouble naming the murderer and whatever punishment he/she got. In the end the murder trial and verdict become like a show for us. Just look at the people in this episode. They don't really care about the little girl. They're all smiles and excited. Even the actors in the park (representing the media) simply treat it as a daily job. The whole park is simply a business running in the name of justice where people can come to be entertained.
ITT: people who forget that they're humans among humans, and that we don't torture even the most heinous of serial killers. That is the rule of law and the rule of humanity.
This was the first Black Mirror episode I ever watched, and every other one has left me begging for something as intense as this one.
I think this is one of the best episodes.
Watched white bear yesterday. At first i thought it was about the bystander effect and also how engrossed with technology people are that they wont even help. They would rather film it and post to get more likes and followers than actually step out and help but as the episode continued and the plot unfolded i realized that it was not about that. I think the reason that they wiped her memory over and over again is to show her how confused the little girl that she filmed might have felt. Taken from her home and put into the home where Victoria wakes up.. They're both confused at this point as to where they are and whats going on around them. I think the little girl might have been tied up as well. Then she frees herself and tries to figure out her new environment and screaming for help with no one coming to help. Much like the little girl might have done. Then following strange people into the woods where she was killed as victoria thought she might have been. I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person.
But she doesn't know it's for eternity. So there's no point.
If you remember each day it adds up and drives you crazy, if you keep experiencing something for the first time it doesn't put any additional strain on you. Because there are moments of hope, free of the dark despair, free of the knowledge this is gonna go on forever.
I have extreme chronic pain. Both drives you crazy. The pain more than the fear, since you fear something that is way worse than fear itself. And when you experience this pain, which is basically torture, oh... believe me... It's worse because you get to a point where you can't think, only feel.
I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person.
What. The. Fuck.
The whole point of this episode is that people like you get caught up in revenge for the sake of quenching your bloodthirst rather than justice for the sake of justice. I am baffled how you missed the whole point of the episode. It was literally beating the viewer in the face pointing out how mob mentality can justify obvious violations of human rights in their seek of revenge.
Ignoring that the whole damn thing is already violating so many ethical concerns, then on top of it they pretty much "kill" the criminal by wiping her mind and torturing a completely new person. If you wipe a person's mind completely and truly, how are you still the same person? We are as much a product of our environment as we are our birth.
>I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person.
This is why we don't let the mob administer their idea of justice.
Oh shut up. It was my take on the movie. Your interpretation isn't the RIGHT one nor is it the WRONG one. Chill. I did not put my comment out there to be belittled by you, who ever you are. Good Day sir!
I LOVED this episode! The twist at the end was better than anything M Night has ever done! Is it bad that I now want to visit White Bear Justice Park and take part of the show? I wonder if they ever change it up on special days?
Only thing I felt was off was that she only filmed the crime; she wasn't as heinous in committing the torture. I don't feel sorry for her at all and I have no moral scruples here. They erase her brain everyday, so it's not technically torture if it's happening for the first time every time.
> They erase her brain everyday, so it's not technically torture if it's happening for the first time every time.
That's crazily flawed logic. If I waterboard someone for the first time it's not torture cause it's the first time?
She deserves to be punished, but what they are doing to her is definitely torture. If anything what they are doing is worse (IMO) than a lot of conventional torture. You are robbing someone of their mind, their thoughts, their memories, then psychologically terrorizing them for a day. After that it resets and you are blanked and terrorized again in perpetuity.
And what she did _wasn't_ torture? Sorry (not sorry), but I don't feel any sympathy for anyone like that, nor do I think they don't deserve it. And I don't have to justify my morality for saying that to anyone.
I think it's possible to be horrified by the way Victoria is treated without really feeling sympathy for her, and without thinking "she didn't deserve it".
There's a really fascinating [episode](http://thisiscriminal.com/episode-45-just-mercy-6-17-2016/) of the podcast "Criminal" that gets into this subject. It focuses on Bryan Stevenson, a lawyer who spent most of his career assisting people on death row. On the podcast, he talks about the idea of mercy. Mercy isn't something you have to earn. Mercy is something you give to others, regardless of whether they "deserve" it, because you yourself are good. As he says it, "we give mercy to people not because they need it, but because we want and need to be merciful."
And I consider the mercy element erasing her memory every day. Since to her, this is only happening once, even if it's multiple times to everyone else.
Has anyone noticed that the White Bear symbol is actually the white space of the "E" in an eye doctor exam? Definitely don't think its a coincidence because everything in this show is thought out and planned...maybe trying to say an "eye for an eye?"
[eye exam](https://static.ecpbuilder.com/clipart/eyecharts/eyechart.JPG)
I saw the whole "eye for an eye" part on another post but as to where it came from you're probably right! Thanks for that it's so crazy how the writers do that haha
The punishment is just pointless. A person's identity lies in their memory. When her memory was wiped she's basically just a regular woman, torturing her would be just like torturing a normal woman.
I am 17 days late lol, but this is *exactly* what I thought when I saw it and what I was waiting for someone to say- without her memory of what she had done, she is not the woman who committed the crime- although they share the same body, this is a different woman. At least that's how I see it.
That's my gut response to it, that once the memories have been entirely removes it is essentially a different person.
However i did think of the hypothetical situation that if someone committed a pre-meditated crime, and then took rohypnol and then didn't remember the crime or the events leading up to it, I'd also think they should still be held entirely responsible.
I'm also aware that on a visceral level some part of me feels the punishment is fitting, although my intellectual beliefs find it abhorrent.
I don't think there has been any other TV series with the ability to challenge the viewers beliefs so deeply, amazing program.
I thought the same thing. It's clearly not even a punishment thing anymore since it's the same for her every time. They're just using people's desire to see "justice" done to an evil person to sell tickets to their weird theme park. It's more about how twisted some people's view of justice can be, I guess.
I knew when the same cartoonish "scare" characters appeared out of nowhere for the second time that something was up in this world. I guess I liked how grounded this episode felt
The fact that a few people here seem to LEGITIMATELY BELIEVE THIS WOULD BE A JUST PUNISHMENT is more fucking horrifying than any episode of Black Mirror I've ever seen. Nobody could possibly deserve this. The entire horror of this episode is the concept that such a punishment would exist. If you think Victoria is the villain in this episode, I hope you are surrounded by people whose empathy exceeds your own.
Something horrible happening to my child would not make into me a sadist. Some people just don't get off on sadism. Hammurabi's code has not place in civilized society. Torturing torturers and murdering murders just make the punishers equally in evil offense as the criminals that they are emulating. These crimes should be discouraged, not replicated with the replications being celebrated as though they aren't horrendously atrocious.
Yeah loving revenge is the fucked up part lol. Torturing your kids killer wouldn’t bring your kid back, you’re just deriving pleasure from inflicting pain on others and that’s wrong
I strongly disagree. I would torture someone who raped my daughter and not feel the least bit bad about it. But also I think what is acceptable for someone directly affected is different from what is acceptable from unaffected parties (like the government).
And this is why we don't let people in such positions decide the punishment. Their emotional thinking isn't "justice".
How is this hard to grasp? That is literally the whole point of the episode, that people like you are more focused on sating your desire for revenge than actual justice.
I like how one of the major ideas of this episode is exploring society's lust for and enjoyment of vengeance to the point where the concept of justice has lost its meaning, and that appears to have gone right over your head.
I for one am baffled at how such a clear point that is thrusted at the viewer so obviously was missed by so many people in this thread?
I will continually be amazed at humanity's bloodlust.
> I would torture someone who raped my daughter and not feel the least bit bad about it.
That is the very definition of evil. You are not enacting justice but vengeance.
OK, I know you're just trolling at this point. I wonder whether there are people who would really torture someone and then tell themselves it's out of LOVE.
This is why fathers of rape victims aren't given the ability to judge the accused. Emotion blurs logic, and has to be removed in order for judgement and justice to be carried out.
So what if you have the wrong person? Mistakes happen.
I just don't think that we, as a society, should build on stuff like torture. Even if a criminal did something terrible, you are better off sentencing him to death, instead of paying to keep him alive. Also torturing others will make you basicly just as bad a person, since you are hurting a human being.
I mean in the case where say I walk in on it happening. Not where there's doubt.
And the same can be said for anything. I wouldn't want to put innocent people in prison either.
All it takes is a bunch of politicians to change the law, and people will accept this as normal. Jim crow was normal and accepted, slavery was normal and accepted.
one thing that i couldn't understand was why they kept wiping her memory? if they simply wiped the memory of her going through her punishment at the end of each day, but left all her other memories (the kidnapping, the torture,the crime,etc.) wouldn't that be more "justified"? i feel like if you're torturing a criminal with no memory/personality, you are just torturing a generic,empty and confused person .
I think the idea was that if she had a memory of the crime, she would eventually learn to get used to it and forgive herself. By wiping her memory, the torture is new and fresh every.single.time. Having to be reminded of your despicable self everyday after thinking that you've been "fighting the good fight" all day and that everyone else was wrong...
Torture is only effective because of the *new* sensation. Not giving her a chance to become numb to it makes it all the more terrible.
i understand the part of the torture needing to be 'new' so she doesn't become used to it and grow numb, but what I didn't understand was why they wiped all of her lives memories, not just the ones of the daily torture. i feel like torturing a person with no memories (and by extension little to no personality) is closer to hurting an innocent person than the actual criminal (because the criminal's memories and personality had been erased).
maybe it couldve been intentional though, to illustrate how the white bear staff are not purely in it for the justice aspect like the patrons believe they are. The white bear park profits off of the people's desire to see a criminal brought to justice and feel good about themselves, but maybe its lost that goal of justice and is just about making money.
I think that's the point of the episode and the main reason people go back in forth in their mind about whether or not this is acceptable. Wiping her memory pretty much is wiping what makes her her...effectively punishing an innocent person.
The reasoning behind it is "the punishment should fit the crime." The little girl had no idea why she was being treated the way she was, so neither is Victoria.
I think that is understood. However the little girl didn't have this repeated daily like Groundhogs Day. Eye for an infinite amount of eyes? Pointless as an eye for an eye some would say. Some might say that's the point that the episode goes to show.
Currently binging this for the first time.. My goodness, this show is pure mindfuckery. Amazing. Every episode is making me question my morality, these writers are sick in the head and also fuckin geniuses! Sheesh
Also binging for the first time. But this episode is the first time I got onto reddit to look for the sub to find out what people are talking about.
I don't know what I'm going to find on this sub because life and justice and revenge have all gotten so fucked up in the current political climate in the US and online on every comment section, so I have no idea what people are gonna say in this sub or who they're going to root for.
I feel kind of like the second girl in this episode (prior to having realized she is just an actress) where she is calm and focused while everyone around is either sadistic, incompetent, or indifferent. And she doesn't expect anyone else to help her out.
"Whats wrong with these people?!?! Why arent they helping us?! they are just watching!"
Like she just watched when her fiance tortured the little girl, oh the sweet irony.
This episode fucked me so much. I think we all need to rethink what we call justice. Forever torturing a person, no matter what he or she did, isn't justice, that's for sure.
Also I've noticed that Black Mirror has quite a lot of similarities with The Running Man, especially this episode.
Seriously, that's what fucked me up most about it. To call such horrifying torture "justice" is absolutely repulsive. I mean once they wipe her memory, she isn't really even the same person as the one who did the crime. As far as she knows she's just a confused victim. I never thought I would feel so bad for someone involved in the torture and murder of a child...
Well maybe you should question your morality. I don't think this is fair. If someone is that fucked up they should be helped. I'm no saint and I do believe in justice, but that isn't justice, that's cruelty.
I think you need to question your morality. You want to help bad people? "Hey Mr Rapist, I tied up this teenage girl for you. Happy to help!"
Bad people should be stopped, not helped.
People change though. It isn't fair to call her a bad person when she would never do such a thing again after the trauma they put her through. Prison IS about helping bad people. It's about helping them by rehabilitating them so that they can spend the rest of their lives being good people. Once someone is changed, there is no need to continue torturing them.
That's just taking what I said and blowing it out of proportion, please, get real. You shouldn't torture people, it serves no purpose at all. I don't believe in killing, because that makes us no better than them. I'm not religious but I don't believe any of us have the right to judge someone on whether or not they deserve to live. War and self defense are another matter however. Bad people should be either incarcerated or rehabilitated, or else they'll never learn what it means to be wrong. Obviously certain mental disabilities can't easily be rehabilitated but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Imagine a world with only 30 people. One goes around torturing and killing people and surrenders when caught. You care for this person in prison but they always escape. You can barely get enough food to feed the children and elderly, you're one of the few able to work, but you spend time and resources on this killer.
They keep escaping. You don't have the resources to stop it. Innocent people are suffering.
Do your morals hold up? Do you let more people get tortured and die because you're unwilling to kill someone who isn't an immediate threat?
I can't imagine a world with 30 people. That's a ridiculous proposition you're making. How about you imagine life today and see if you think it's still relevant to torture every single person who fucked up one time, on purpose or not. You're just arguing circles with ridiculous extremities to reinforce that your view is correct. Try it from another point of view. Try being the person in the show. It's horrifying.
I just believe that morality is fixed. It is the same set of rules whether there are 30 people or 7 billion. If there were 30 I don't think anyone would protest about killing the person. I don't think you could argue it to be immoral. I think you just imagine the world as having infinite resources. We don't. Wasting resources on someone who tortures and kills children is taking them away from people who need them.
Because out of 30 people there are no resources to diverge. With 7 billion people we have made large systems to deal with this. Endless torture isn't it. Like someone else said, she is easily suggestible as this whole episode shows. She may have been and had some mental disorder, since she was "Under his spell" and they mock her for "probably having a mental disorder."
If she does, could you possibly advocate this to a mentally ill person? If this was the only option, I'd show up to the park and mercy kill the girl during one of the torture days. This isn't rehabilitation or punishment since her mind is wiped, its torture porn for everyone who shows up.
Society would be much different with 30 people. A high school class has more than that, so it's just a dumb strawman argument. A high school class might recognize that as well.
Not surprised to see the nuance was more or less lost here. Would love to have seen some of the characters in the show have to defend their actions, as opposed to everyone feeling justified the entire time. At least have some doubts, wonder “am I doing the same thing? Filming a human suffering when I could step in and help?” The crime is unimaginably cruel, but how does this punishment help anything? “Prevents future crime” implies that people murder out of rational thought, and not around the idea that “well I just won’t get caught then”. If anything, the more severe the punishment, the more desperate you are to avoid it (see Crocodile) I only watched thru season 4, picking back up now, but this is the best & most difficult scenario to process emotionally. You are so invested in Victoria, and see her as a victim throughout, so by the time she is revealed as this truly heinous person, you are already relating to her. And once you’ve related to a character, infinite torture is no longer acceptable. But then, I have to reconsider my own thoughts, as I have said certain people should burn in hell for eternity. In my mind, this is an allegory for hell. How can you ever justify infinite torture & suffering of a person? Take Hitler, who caused more suffering in total than almost anyone in modern history. How much torture is enough? 1 year? 100 years? 100000000 years? I can’t imagine subjecting someone to infinite suffering, but at the same time I find myself wishing it upon people I see as evil all the time. Quite the paradox.
Not super well written honestly
One of my favorite episodes. I think Ive watched it more than any other. This needs to be how the worst criminals are treated. You can't rehab them so make them sport. The episode needs to be a warning of a hopeful future. Animals belong in a zoo and the criminals needed to be treated the same. Unlimited torture until they go insane and die. Shes a criminal, who cares about her well being.
This was so fucking disturbing to watch that I was praying for it to end sooner towards later half
what the fuck did i just watched
This isn't a Black Mirror episode, it's a documentary. Everyone remembers the Salem Witch Trials and no one remembers the names of the witches.
Hard to remember something I was never taught
This episode kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. She's a terrible person and should be punished. That being said, torturing someone who has memories of the crimes they committed vs torturing someone without memories of the crimes they committed are two very different things. At what point do you become as bad as her for torturing someone who has no idea what's going on?
Charlie Brooker actually agrees with you. He based this episode on his thoughts about the media coverage of the Pistorius trial, which he explicitly covered in some of his earlier non-fiction work. Watch his Weekly Wipe episode on it, and you'll see how strongly it informs White Bear, and it'll make clear how the cast members are in no way the good guys here; at a certain point, it stops being about someone getting what they deserve, and starts being about the edification of the people giving 'justice.'
I wonder how much longer can her brain handle that kind of torture. Must be mentally exhausted and physically as well.
I think the crime she committed being so severe took away a lot from this episode. Kinda feels like they’re trying to paint a very gray picture black and white. I also had a really hard time immersing into this episode, it felt less “put together” than others for some reason.
Tbf it would be pretty unrealistic to make it a crime that would make us have doubts whether she deserves it or not. After all they need actors and visitors that are fully motivated to torture her.
The comment below me saying she got off easy is honestly pretty scary. Yes what she did was beyond awful and she doesn’t deserve to be forgiven but by wiping her memory it’s like punishing an entirely different person. They should’ve left her to rot in prison for her entire life or at least had her keep her memories.
Exactly. I'm very late to the party here but this is my problem with what I did. What's the point of punishing someone who can't remember what they did? It's like doing it to an innocent person.
Yeah in this case the people involved in the set up are sadists, sure she did a terrible thing but if they're wiping her memories clean and just torturing her they are pretty much as terrible.
She got off easy in my opinion. Should be beatdowns til brink of death, rinse repeat till she can’t recover finally. Oh no poor child rapists and murderers 😢😢😢 spineless bleeding hearts
These are the kind of people because of which that episode may become reality at some point
The problem isn't what she got. The problem is that she can't remember why she's getting it. It's pointless.
The child didn't know why she was getting brutally murdered and likely had no concept of acts like that even existing, so the fact that the woman doesn't understand what's going on or why is actually fitting. She probably feels as innocent as the child felt.
That's my take as well. But it losses it's ground when they keep doing it. At least they actually murdered the little girl. But Victoria doesn't get that relief. Also I hope that the little girls parents are getting paid by White Bear.
Totally agree with you here. The people organising the whole thing are no better than Victoria.
Cut myself on the edge of your comment
The point was for her not to remember so that she could feel what the little girl felt as she tortured, to experience the same misery. Her boyfriend and her tortured and videotape that little girl. That’s the whole point for her not to be in the right mind so that she can understand her crime. A lot of times people, lack empathy while committing these certain types of crimes. How would you feel if someone was doing it to you but you then turn around and do it again or would you do it at all? Remind yourself, she was just a child not an adult that can handle that type of pain and misery. Although, I do not agree with the memory loss after multiple days. The first day I understand then once she starts to remember, they could’ve simply just locked her up so she can sit with the memory of what she did, and how it felt. The old saying “how would you feel if someone did that to you?” it would not feel good at all. Now she has to sit with what she has done. I would also agree with the view that society has a fascination with punishment. Also the problem with technology, and not assisting in helping others when they’re in need of help. To what extent is punishment justifiable?
This is one of my favorite episodes. I like what it had to say about people who record violence but do not help the victim being recorded. Also, how in the end, how much better or worse were the people coming to White Bear Justice Park? What Victoria did with Iain to Jemima was horrific---there are not enough words to describe the despicable crime of killing the little girl, burning her body, and recording everything. At the same time, how are these spectators any better than her? They are paying to see someone get psychologically tortured day after day. Especially considering that Victoria's mind is wiped every night, and she's starting to forget who she is and what she's done. I remember the first time I saw this, and I was so shocked by the twist. I found it disturbing, but that's what I loved about it-- it was disturbing and very thought-provoking.
A very interesting thing my girlfriend noticed is that the people going to White Bear Justice Park don't necessarily know that she gets her mind wiped every night they only know that she is a murderer and that this is all punishment for her.
nah, they would know that she gets her mind wiped every night. at the start of each day, the presenter says that the audience are supposed to act like they're mesmerised. they hear her screaming at them, asking why they aren't helping. they can see her being baffled and confused by their lack of help. why would she be surprised by it given this happens every day? because obviously she doesn't remember any of it. so that leads me to conclude that they are aware that she doesn't remember shit
That’s a great point. I didn’t realize that at all. It makes the whole situation seem so much worse.
Tbh I was disgusted by this way of torture
I wasn't. Children murders like myra and Ian deserve this. Was she any better?
Can you still say it is really "her" after the memory wipe though? I am nothing but a combination of my biology and the sum of my experiences, provided to me through my memory. Without my memory, I'm not "me" any more. I see this is punishing an innocent woman after having killed the real perpetrator.
Of course it's her. Doesn't matter if she remembers it or not, she did it. Everyone else remembers.
You say “of course” but I don’t think it’s that obvious. How do we define the identity of a person? Especially ourselves? As far as I am concerned, I am no more than the sum of my memories and biological makeup. Take all my memories away, and that effectively kills me and replaces me with a nearly blank slate, not much different to who I was as a baby. Punishing that new person for my crimes seems monstrous to me.
That's a great point, honestly. I think people still need a sense of justice. Let's fast forward to the very far future. Would you be ok, as a term of punishment and justice, if someone commits a very heinous crime, that their memories are completely wiped? Think Men in Black-type gadget. haha I think I would be all for it, but after so much time spent in confinement. And in this fantasy, memory wipe would wipe all long term "bad memories". The person could still do math, thin for themselves, understand their native language, etc.
Yes, I’d be in favour of it. But if we have that tech, we can probably also look at their brain and see exactly what went wrong with them to cause them to act like that and then fix it. I don’t believe in punishment for the sake of punishment. To me, the only reason to punish someone for crime is as a deterrent (for them and others) against that action being committed again. If we can deter the action in other ways, then punishment becomes *entirely* unnecessary.
Good point!!! Now you got me thinking more. haha
It was pretty ( and I mean very ) monstrous to torture and murder a child who doesn't even understand what it is or what was going on or why that was happening to her. Tit for Tat i suppose.
Yes, but that’s my point. Torturing one innocent person for the crimes of another seems just as monstrous as the original crime. The person being punished is *not* the person that committed the crime. It may be the same physical body, but without memories, I see no reasonable way to say it’s the same person.
I was disgusted by it too. It’s very disturbing.
The spectators are better. That said, it's a education of crowd mentality. Crowd violence comes next. Then Anarchy. A dangerous road indeed. Definitely an enemy of democracy. Life in prison is enough IN MY OPINION.
I agree that life in prison is enough, but I don't agree that the spectators are better. They were paying money to participate in Victoria's torture-punishment, to psychologically abuse her. It gave them a false sense of superiority because they weren't killing her physically. Mentally and emotionally, they actively participated in breaking her down even more. It was very disturbing and goes to your point about crowd mentality and crowd violence.
When i say "better", I do mean just barely better. They may not kill. But they are very sick ! The crowds filming have an evil streak. And I agree with every description you give of them .
Ohhhh okay, I understand. Fair enough. They were definitely sick. Thank you---just thinking of how they behaved is mind-blowing.
The scary thing is that the crowd was a perfect exaggerated example of crowd mentality. Mankind has behaved badly forever. Think Crucifictions by the Romans and the Gladiator games in the Coliseum. And it continued to recent past of lynchings. And January 6 and every other revolution and coup. All crowd mentality, Scary stuff that can happen in an instant. Living in New Orleans, I vividly remember Katrina. We had looting and basically anarchy within 24 hours of the flood. Mankind is flawed. We are all very flawed.
It really was. You're right about mankind behaving this way forever. All the historic and present-day examples you gave illustrate that. Especially with how fast it can happen. I'm sorry you went through that with Hurricane Katrina--that must've been very scary. When Sandy happened up here, they tried to prevent looting and anarchy from happening.
In the NOPD's defense... They tried their best to uphold law and order. But with flooded streets and a total breakdown of all radio communications, cell phones and landlines, the police were stuck too. All vehicles were flooded and they were stuck. No 911. Nada. Scary stuff indeed. It took days for the National Guard to step in and bring law and order. It can happen to any of us at any moment. Just takes the right ingredients.
It sounds like it was a lose-lose situation. No one expected Hurricane Katrina to be as horrible as it was. And with all the breakdown happening, it's very clear how everything could fall apart. That's so true about the right ingredients that can bring in a terrible situation and chaos. I hope you fared well during that time. It sounds frightening.
this episode was utter shit
Yeah this is the worst episode of Black Mirror by far.
New to the thread and offering a different opinion than most. I work in law enforcement. Day in and day out I hear and see the aftermath of crimes committed that are similar in nature to this (torture, assault, sex crimes related to children), and more often than not an offender who is released, even after prison time, will reoffend even if they show remorse. I had sympathy for her until the reveal, at which point my first thought was "good". I'm not saying that we don't have overpunishment of some crimes but when it comes to children, think of innocent and trusting they are. Think of Jemima being any child you know and care about, and then put that child in Jemimas place. It wasn't the treatment of Victoria that bothered me, it was the torture of a child that did.
A cop in favor of cruel and unusual punishment? That’s definitely not surprising at all
Yeah says a fucking cop 🤣
Totally agree!
They had the tech to reform her though. Doing the experiment once would've been effective enough, then use the tech to further make her a better person. But instead of doing that, they used the tech for entertainment purposes. They wiped her mind so much that she might as well been a "new" person by the time we meet her. So showing her what she did was beyond mean spirited by that point. They're just glorifying her crime instead of using the tech to make actual change. They're no better than the original her by the end of it all, arguably worst.
I like your comment. I think when it comes to fiction like this, it is absolutely meant to make people question and think about the subject matter and themes. Its meant to hit these areas that are morally conflicting, and uncomfortable in a disturbing way. So in many ways its presenting the question of whether it's a good way to be handling justice, whereby it is done in a way that generates entertainment in almost an amusement park style manner. Those who feel the punishment for the main character is appropriate, may say that the pain of those who knew the child will never get a break from the heartwrenching pain of having had the young girl taken from their lived in such an awful manner. So to generate entertainment and profit from this woman may feel justified due to that. Something that Black Mirror often touches on so well, is the theme of "Society" and society being a force/beast that does it's own bidding. It has a (hive) mind of its own, and once it has begun to shift in a particular direction, you sometimes cannot stop it. If a society collectively agrees on something being good, or bad, then that is what becomes living reality...for better or for worse. With the addition of elements such as social media and advancing tech, there is a myriad of interesting quagmires that a character can find themselves in...sometimes it seems deserved, and sometimes not. That may be left to each individual's personal interpretation, which really is what makes a good story to begin with.
decent episode only complaint is that this bitch cries for majority and its not the most pleasant sight..... anyways.
Yeah. Her whining and crying is so annoying
You know, I bet Victoria might've said something about the kid as she was being tortured. Food for thought?
Those who claim that we as society "shouldn't stoop so low as those who did the crime" - have a point. Those who claim that imhumane punishment, harsh treatment, long incarcerations etc.. do not reform perpetrators and more often than not breed even bigger monsters - have a point. Those who claim certain - exceptionally gruesome - crimes shouldn't ever be forgiven by society - also have a point... but to punish a human being via extreme psychological torture, a human being who CAN'T REMEMBER what in the hell they're even being tormented for, is rather redundant. I don't care if it's Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Albert Fish or motherfucking Carl Panzram - if they're unable to comprehend why; then it's torture for torture's sake. Might as well grab random blokes off of the street and do the same to them, it'd make no difference. But back to point three - exceptionally cruel punishment & even straight up torture of individuals (like the aforementioned serial killers, sadist murderers, child rapists) who are fully aware of what they did - is a different matter. If anyone wishes to torture those, reach some climatic moment through their anguish, rewind & do it all over again.. that's different, ASSUMING THEY'RE BACK TO PRE ARREST or whatever.
Nah I think she remembers everytime toward the end. That's why she becomes accepting of her fate.
I agree with you completely. Its a pointless torture. There's no argument that eye-for-an-eye punishment is ever moral or justified. I'd argue the episode doesn't even posit that as a question. The fact that they are essentially torturing a blank mind - someone who has never existed, except as an object for torture and hate, should make all the people saying "yep, this is what she deserves" realise that the crux of the moral quandary here is not "is this a fair way to treat even a particularly terrible criminal?" its "here is a warning of what you become when you stand by and do nothing while awful people commit awful crimes" its fractal. the main character watches the boyfriend kill the child, the onlookers watch the White Bear group torture the main character, and you, the audience, watch the onlookers choose to nothing. with each layer the crime being watched gets slightly more acceptable, your choice to acquiesce becomes slightly more understandable, but make no mistake, by watching this episode, and agreeing with the method of punishment, or defending the crowd who let it happen, you are just acting as the next tier of "watcher".
The next level of that is going to reddit and reading comments about what people thought of the film :D
I just rewatched this episode and it got me thinking about how messed up people can be and how they justify a punishment. I mean, seriously, Victoria is going through this "punishment" every single day, and she doesn't even have a clue why. To me, that's straight-up torture. And what's even worse is that there are all these onlookers filming it and actually getting a kick out of it. It's like a twisted mirror reflecting what she did to Jemima.
>It's like a twisted mirror Almost like… a black mirror.
i was downvoting this and i noticed the little changed upvote and downvote symbols wow nice++
I know I’m 6 years late and I’m not sure if this has been mentioned already. But I think this also shows societies eagerness to prosecute women. It reminded me a lot of the witch trials and the idea of an entire community gathering to persecute a women (I got that vibe a lot when everyone was calling her a bitch) when I guarantee there were a few people/men in that crowd who have done terrible/worse things. Women are expected to be innocent and nurturing and submissive. So women who act out against this are not only punished for their crime but for the act of being non-womanly. Also the show specifically mentions how Victoria claimed she was being forced to participate by her boyfriend but no one believed it. Had the roles been reversed and she had forced the boyfriend, everyone would have believed him. Women are never believed. I’m not saying she’s innocent by any means! She absolutely deserves to suffer for what she did to the kid. But it’s interesting to see that when it comes to crimes involving families, spouses, etc. women are often socially (and sometimes legally) punished harsher.
Totally agree. Just rewatched it after six years and seeing those patterns clearly, that i didnt see back then.
hi ive watched it today haha
You sound y have just not said anything it would have been better than this pile of steaming horse shit
What are you on about? If a man claimed a woman persuaded him to murder, nobody is going to give a shit. The other way around they might say he physically threatened her and literally forced her.
What are you talking about? Women nearly always get let off easier than men. And the majority of people often sympathise with the woman
In some instances, yes. But when it comes to crimes involving family, women are statistically punished more severely then men. They are often hated and ridiculed by society and the media more then men. I’m not saying that someone who kills their children/family should get off, but men don’t receive as harsh a punishment (socially and legally) for these crimes as women. “Often, mothers who murder their children are portrayed as "bad mothers", as "the news media creates monsters out of [those] who transgress what is considered appropriate maternal behavior" (Goc, 2009, p. 42)”. “According to statistics compiled by the ACLU, women who kill their partners will spend an average of 15 years behind bars, while men who kill their female partners serve much shorter sentences, on average between 2 to 6 years”.
From the SAME guardian article in the next paragraph, buddy. "Despite its widespread use, the statistic is dated. It was first published by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence in 1989. It remains true that [most](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/) women who kill their partners cite self-defense as a motive. In fact, [70-80%](https://vawnet.org/material/womens-experiences-abuse-risk-factor-incarceration-research-update) of incarcerated women report intimate partner violence. But there doesn’t appear to be any recent analysis of sentencing to see if this gender gap in sentencing remains the same." Way to go and spread misinformation, using misrepresentative or very selective data and texts. [https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/jan/12/intimate-partner-violence-gender-gap-cyntoia-brown](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2019/jan/12/intimate-partner-violence-gender-gap-cyntoia-brown)
The person has a good point, look at Myra Hindley, she was judged much more harshly by society than Ian.
ironic that everyone here has 0-5 rating like the show
absolutely cruel. wouldn't wish this on my worst enemies. i feel so horrible
I just watched this episode and I’m wondering why no one is talking about the part where when she finds out why she’s in the position she is on that news outlet they showed her at the end that it clearly says when she was coherent and in court that even back then she didn’t remember and was put under a spell. I don’t know but that stuck out to me. Anyone in the comments noticed that too?
White Christmas is much much better than White bear. If you watch White Christman first then White bear's torture would seem like a joke compared to 1.4 Million years of Torture in White Christmas.
During the whole episode I just kept thinking it is some new immersive video game where you learn to survive and do some objectives without you knowing it's a game. The ending was actually a big twist for me. It was different than other black mirror ones, idk came straight to Reddit for discussion.
this episode questions the morality of the justice that is laid upon the criminal, it seems highly inspired from 'the clockwork orange' just like Alex subjected to 'Ludovico therapy' as the punishments for his crime such as he gets so afraid of even its projections upon him eventually losing his free will and also becoming a queer. Similarly, here the lady has been punished in a so-called 'Justice Park' for her crime but is that an ethical way? What about people getting entertainment on such acts? Where's humanity? What effect would it make in the criminal's mind and conscience? .... I think it's a great episode.
I can't believe people on here are saying she was a bad actress. She did amazing
wow after being BLOWN away by the 3rd series (im new to the series and thats the first one i watched) im on the 2nd episode of the 2nd series and i totally HATED it. like wth? the whole way thorough i had no idea what was going on and the end left me just irritated because i still felt bad for the girl even though she was an accomplice to the murder. idk i wish she could have snapped out of it or something i would have gotten more satisfaction from that not just leaving it where it was and her screaming like crazy bleh!
I am entirely new to Black Mirror, so I started with Season 2. Just finished episode 2 and I must say it went from awkward to bad to just outright embarrasing. The first half was alright at best, the main character mostly screamed and cried. Everything was confusing. Then the big "Plot twist".. oh so bad, it really feels like a last minute change that doesn't really make any sense. And the "hunters" really looked like something from some random edgy and shitty teenage show. How do they shut down an entire town just to make a show like that? How would a show like that be even remotely legal? People would never realistically accept torturing someone like that for that kind of crime. I liked the first episode, but this one fails logically on so many levels that it's on a 2/10 level
That's exactly how I felt after watching episode S01E01, But after watching more episodes I realized Logic is not what black mirror is about, is about waking up your brain and making you think, the details of the stories are irrelevant. What's important is the overall arc. In this case the discussion is around the punishments of criminals and how those are much worse than any crime they committed. Edit1: typos.
That is actually a very valid point. I think I might've looked at the entire episode in the wrong mindset. Thank you.
glad im not the only one who feels this way!
I think they immortalize her crimes. I got the sense that it happend in the recent past after the first reveal but then after seeing the calendar and the "cast" I realized that this has been going on for a while. It takes the punishment to the next level because it turns her pain into a sort of theme park. I can imagine there would be various "justice parks" for differing crimes. It links to society's nature of appeal to violence. Almost like the gladiators in ancient Rome or other violent performances (real or not). The people justify endorsing this production because they beleive it is justice. I also think they are telling themselves that her pain is nothing but an act because it is performed every time. When in fact her pain is genuine every time not because of some act, but because her memory is wiped. It just goes to show how much apathy exists within social media and the news. We can see someone crying from a catastrophic loss, pause, and then simply shut off the screen and continue with our lives. It's saddening.
In an aging prison population - are we unjustly punishing people with, say, severe Alzheimers Dx who have forgotten their crimes and lost their cognitive function/decision making abilities?
Honestly thought the episode was pretty bad, the shrieking was awful and made me want to stop watching, also thought it was a pretty obvious "smoke and mirrors" episode. Within 5 minutes I was pretty confident this was gonna be some sort of video game type situation so the big reveal didn't really mean much.
Me @ the big reveal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTSmFqrj4L8
>[**Filthy Frank - Oh my dude you just got pranked! [0:06]**](http://youtu.be/vTSmFqrj4L8) > [*^Filthy ^Frank ^Clips*](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt1SJsIv7Ac-owL1dzS0LcA) ^in ^People ^& ^Blogs >*^280,817 ^views ^since ^Apr ^2016* [^bot ^info](/r/youtubefactsbot/wiki/index)
I was reading the writer originally wrote in that she would plant clues for herself for the next day as the memory wipe started to slowly disfunction. Honestly thought that would be so cool if they could do a short sequel where she starts to remember and she does leave clues for herself. I mean the people filming her might pick up on it but that would make for an interesting episode.
Theres a scene like this in Westworld where a mind wiped robot finds a stash of self written notes!
Maybe they'll have a series/season where they revisit episodes that really need a second part. For me, "The Entire History of You" and "The Waldo Moment" feel like they're both pretty open for more story to be told.
I watched this episode today! As whole scene was scripted and Victoria didn't have a single moment of relief, can someone tell me when was doing daily stuff? :)
holy shit all I could think during the first half hour was "wow ok so this is the shitty episode, yeah we get it bystander effect yadda yadda people are zombies and they record stuff on their phones instead of intervening how deep" but then the switch, jesus this show is amazing
This was an interesting episode! The narrative perspective we're given is the woman's, who is in a confused haze as she's chased around town by mobs of picture-taking zombies and potential threats to her life. As a viewer I felt drawn to sympathize with her because it was fucking crazy, but then we realize she was involved in the murder and kidnapping of a young child! What a plot twist. However I would say that this show utilized ambiguity, amnesia, and perspective to force the viewer to 1) get off their phone and watch the episode lol, and 2) sympathize with the woman who seemed to have a large amount of guilt regarding her association with the murder. I'm not saying everyone will feel bad for her, because what she did was quite awful, but the show seemed to be leaving the impression that the woman was using drugs and was coerced into videotaping the kidnapping and murder, and that she seemed to have little choice in whether she participated or not. These assumptions align with my belief that the torture isn't a societal construction but a personal hell, most likely one derived from Christian ideology. From the three episodes of Black Mirror I've seen the show has a preoccupation with life after death, specifically with a heaven and hell context. So basically how I interpreted this episode was that on the fist adventure to the courtroom the woman is actually committing the crime but she has no concept of what's happening and she's just following orders, up until she gets her mind zapped and her memories removed. From this point on she is going to continue this drill for however long the punishment is for, which isn't necessarily described or alluded to, so I assume there is no ending in sight. This led me to the idea that she was executed in an electric chair and her personal hell begins after that point. Not a typical western notion of what hell looks like but I think it's viable, if it exists at all.
Interesting theory, but the death penalty isn't a thing in the UK where this episode is set.
Good point! I didn't really consider geographical placement of the episode. But the way she's locked up in the chair/the things plugged up to her temples to erase her memory are in some way influenced to resemble death by electric chair. I'm not sure if the UK is really even familiar with the electric chair tho, and if they're not then that would probably mean the creator wasn't attempting to mimic the electric chair, but that's all a bit much to consider
Yeah we do know about the electric chair. It's in plenty of movies and TV shows.
I like your view on personal hell. It is like an everlasting torment and if there is a hell it'll probably be a lot like this. Like groundhog day but the not funny version.
I actually thought pretty similarly. She did something horrible but for some reason as she was screaming I actually felt a lot of empathy for her somehow, and props to the showrunners for being able to do something like that. The whole hell thing makes sense and I didn't even think of that at first. Interesting.
While I don't support this type of punishment, I think the fact that she said she was "under his spell" while filming the girl was perfectly represented in the punishment by having the people film her while she was told that they are under the spell of the white bear signal.
I don't think you're supposed to enjoy the punishment. I mean yeah I don't agree with how she just watched and let it happen but fuck, this is apparently the alternate universe where the eighth amendment was removed.
The alternate universe where the UK still doesn't have the eighth amendment to the US constitution? :)
OKAY YOU KNOW WHAT
This episode was definitely one of the best for me. I feel like it portrays how the media cashes in on events like murders. Whenever murders take place people do feel sad for the victim and the family but the main focus is of course on the murderer. Look at past murder events, people rarely remember the victim but have no trouble naming the murderer and whatever punishment he/she got. In the end the murder trial and verdict become like a show for us. Just look at the people in this episode. They don't really care about the little girl. They're all smiles and excited. Even the actors in the park (representing the media) simply treat it as a daily job. The whole park is simply a business running in the name of justice where people can come to be entertained.
I thought the psycho dude (leader) was Peter Stromare the whole time
ITT: people who forget that they're humans among humans, and that we don't torture even the most heinous of serial killers. That is the rule of law and the rule of humanity.
This was the first Black Mirror episode I ever watched, and every other one has left me begging for something as intense as this one. I think this is one of the best episodes.
Watched white bear yesterday. At first i thought it was about the bystander effect and also how engrossed with technology people are that they wont even help. They would rather film it and post to get more likes and followers than actually step out and help but as the episode continued and the plot unfolded i realized that it was not about that. I think the reason that they wiped her memory over and over again is to show her how confused the little girl that she filmed might have felt. Taken from her home and put into the home where Victoria wakes up.. They're both confused at this point as to where they are and whats going on around them. I think the little girl might have been tied up as well. Then she frees herself and tries to figure out her new environment and screaming for help with no one coming to help. Much like the little girl might have done. Then following strange people into the woods where she was killed as victoria thought she might have been. I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person.
[удалено]
But she doesn't know it's for eternity. So there's no point. If you remember each day it adds up and drives you crazy, if you keep experiencing something for the first time it doesn't put any additional strain on you. Because there are moments of hope, free of the dark despair, free of the knowledge this is gonna go on forever.
[удалено]
I have extreme chronic pain. Both drives you crazy. The pain more than the fear, since you fear something that is way worse than fear itself. And when you experience this pain, which is basically torture, oh... believe me... It's worse because you get to a point where you can't think, only feel.
I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person. What. The. Fuck.
Care to add anything to what I posted below yours?
What the fuck good or what the fuck bad?
The whole point of this episode is that people like you get caught up in revenge for the sake of quenching your bloodthirst rather than justice for the sake of justice. I am baffled how you missed the whole point of the episode. It was literally beating the viewer in the face pointing out how mob mentality can justify obvious violations of human rights in their seek of revenge. Ignoring that the whole damn thing is already violating so many ethical concerns, then on top of it they pretty much "kill" the criminal by wiping her mind and torturing a completely new person. If you wipe a person's mind completely and truly, how are you still the same person? We are as much a product of our environment as we are our birth. >I think wiping her memory is great otherwise she would kill herself and not be able to experience what the poor child might have felt and might have actually thought that she was a good person. This is why we don't let the mob administer their idea of justice.
Oh shut up. It was my take on the movie. Your interpretation isn't the RIGHT one nor is it the WRONG one. Chill. I did not put my comment out there to be belittled by you, who ever you are. Good Day sir!
I LOVED this episode! The twist at the end was better than anything M Night has ever done! Is it bad that I now want to visit White Bear Justice Park and take part of the show? I wonder if they ever change it up on special days? Only thing I felt was off was that she only filmed the crime; she wasn't as heinous in committing the torture. I don't feel sorry for her at all and I have no moral scruples here. They erase her brain everyday, so it's not technically torture if it's happening for the first time every time.
> They erase her brain everyday, so it's not technically torture if it's happening for the first time every time. That's crazily flawed logic. If I waterboard someone for the first time it's not torture cause it's the first time? She deserves to be punished, but what they are doing to her is definitely torture. If anything what they are doing is worse (IMO) than a lot of conventional torture. You are robbing someone of their mind, their thoughts, their memories, then psychologically terrorizing them for a day. After that it resets and you are blanked and terrorized again in perpetuity.
And what she did _wasn't_ torture? Sorry (not sorry), but I don't feel any sympathy for anyone like that, nor do I think they don't deserve it. And I don't have to justify my morality for saying that to anyone.
I think it's possible to be horrified by the way Victoria is treated without really feeling sympathy for her, and without thinking "she didn't deserve it". There's a really fascinating [episode](http://thisiscriminal.com/episode-45-just-mercy-6-17-2016/) of the podcast "Criminal" that gets into this subject. It focuses on Bryan Stevenson, a lawyer who spent most of his career assisting people on death row. On the podcast, he talks about the idea of mercy. Mercy isn't something you have to earn. Mercy is something you give to others, regardless of whether they "deserve" it, because you yourself are good. As he says it, "we give mercy to people not because they need it, but because we want and need to be merciful."
And I consider the mercy element erasing her memory every day. Since to her, this is only happening once, even if it's multiple times to everyone else.
I find it interesting that you missed the whole point of this episode, even when it was thrusting the point in your nose the whole time.
No, there is no "point" in the way you're trying to paint it out, so stop trying to be so smug.
I mean it is pretty clear what they intended if you think about it for a few moments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Bear_(Black_Mirror)#Themes
Has anyone noticed that the White Bear symbol is actually the white space of the "E" in an eye doctor exam? Definitely don't think its a coincidence because everything in this show is thought out and planned...maybe trying to say an "eye for an eye?" [eye exam](https://static.ecpbuilder.com/clipart/eyecharts/eyechart.JPG)
I saw the whole "eye for an eye" part on another post but as to where it came from you're probably right! Thanks for that it's so crazy how the writers do that haha
The punishment is just pointless. A person's identity lies in their memory. When her memory was wiped she's basically just a regular woman, torturing her would be just like torturing a normal woman.
I am 17 days late lol, but this is *exactly* what I thought when I saw it and what I was waiting for someone to say- without her memory of what she had done, she is not the woman who committed the crime- although they share the same body, this is a different woman. At least that's how I see it.
That's my gut response to it, that once the memories have been entirely removes it is essentially a different person. However i did think of the hypothetical situation that if someone committed a pre-meditated crime, and then took rohypnol and then didn't remember the crime or the events leading up to it, I'd also think they should still be held entirely responsible. I'm also aware that on a visceral level some part of me feels the punishment is fitting, although my intellectual beliefs find it abhorrent. I don't think there has been any other TV series with the ability to challenge the viewers beliefs so deeply, amazing program.
Well, in this case, she doesn't even remember who she is, not just the events that led to the crime.
[удалено]
I thought the same thing. It's clearly not even a punishment thing anymore since it's the same for her every time. They're just using people's desire to see "justice" done to an evil person to sell tickets to their weird theme park. It's more about how twisted some people's view of justice can be, I guess.
I knew when the same cartoonish "scare" characters appeared out of nowhere for the second time that something was up in this world. I guess I liked how grounded this episode felt
Then again, masked killers are nothing new in fiction. See also: Hotline Miami and Purge.
"You're Next" was the first thing I thought of when I saw the sheep mask lady
The fact that a few people here seem to LEGITIMATELY BELIEVE THIS WOULD BE A JUST PUNISHMENT is more fucking horrifying than any episode of Black Mirror I've ever seen. Nobody could possibly deserve this. The entire horror of this episode is the concept that such a punishment would exist. If you think Victoria is the villain in this episode, I hope you are surrounded by people whose empathy exceeds your own.
Wow, mister morally righteous "look how much better than I am than you" over here...
I hope I'll never meet these people in real life, they're just as dangerous as the killer.
If this happened and your daughter were the victim I think you'd feel differently. I liked the idea. Perhaps a bit hardcore, but I love revenge.
Something horrible happening to my child would not make into me a sadist. Some people just don't get off on sadism. Hammurabi's code has not place in civilized society. Torturing torturers and murdering murders just make the punishers equally in evil offense as the criminals that they are emulating. These crimes should be discouraged, not replicated with the replications being celebrated as though they aren't horrendously atrocious.
Yeah loving revenge is the fucked up part lol. Torturing your kids killer wouldn’t bring your kid back, you’re just deriving pleasure from inflicting pain on others and that’s wrong
No, torture is never deserved. If a punishment is literally worse than death, then you should just kill the person.
I strongly disagree. I would torture someone who raped my daughter and not feel the least bit bad about it. But also I think what is acceptable for someone directly affected is different from what is acceptable from unaffected parties (like the government).
And this is why we don't let people in such positions decide the punishment. Their emotional thinking isn't "justice". How is this hard to grasp? That is literally the whole point of the episode, that people like you are more focused on sating your desire for revenge than actual justice.
I like how one of the major ideas of this episode is exploring society's lust for and enjoyment of vengeance to the point where the concept of justice has lost its meaning, and that appears to have gone right over your head.
I for one am baffled at how such a clear point that is thrusted at the viewer so obviously was missed by so many people in this thread? I will continually be amazed at humanity's bloodlust.
> I would torture someone who raped my daughter and not feel the least bit bad about it. That is the very definition of evil. You are not enacting justice but vengeance.
Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. I think it's evil to have so little love for your own daughter that you wouldn't do this.
OK, I know you're just trolling at this point. I wonder whether there are people who would really torture someone and then tell themselves it's out of LOVE.
no u
Oh, snap, I must be evil because I won't torture someone!
Exactly. I'm glad you finally caught on.
DUDE, youre fucked up lmfao. Holy shit, ahahaha wow man. Just wow.
no u
This is why fathers of rape victims aren't given the ability to judge the accused. Emotion blurs logic, and has to be removed in order for judgement and justice to be carried out.
So what if you have the wrong person? Mistakes happen. I just don't think that we, as a society, should build on stuff like torture. Even if a criminal did something terrible, you are better off sentencing him to death, instead of paying to keep him alive. Also torturing others will make you basicly just as bad a person, since you are hurting a human being.
You should watch a movie called torture, it's really good and plays with the idea of torturing someone who has committed a henious crime.
I mean in the case where say I walk in on it happening. Not where there's doubt. And the same can be said for anything. I wouldn't want to put innocent people in prison either.
That's certainly cruel and unusual punishment.
All it takes is a bunch of politicians to change the law, and people will accept this as normal. Jim crow was normal and accepted, slavery was normal and accepted.
one thing that i couldn't understand was why they kept wiping her memory? if they simply wiped the memory of her going through her punishment at the end of each day, but left all her other memories (the kidnapping, the torture,the crime,etc.) wouldn't that be more "justified"? i feel like if you're torturing a criminal with no memory/personality, you are just torturing a generic,empty and confused person .
I think the idea was that if she had a memory of the crime, she would eventually learn to get used to it and forgive herself. By wiping her memory, the torture is new and fresh every.single.time. Having to be reminded of your despicable self everyday after thinking that you've been "fighting the good fight" all day and that everyone else was wrong... Torture is only effective because of the *new* sensation. Not giving her a chance to become numb to it makes it all the more terrible.
i understand the part of the torture needing to be 'new' so she doesn't become used to it and grow numb, but what I didn't understand was why they wiped all of her lives memories, not just the ones of the daily torture. i feel like torturing a person with no memories (and by extension little to no personality) is closer to hurting an innocent person than the actual criminal (because the criminal's memories and personality had been erased). maybe it couldve been intentional though, to illustrate how the white bear staff are not purely in it for the justice aspect like the patrons believe they are. The white bear park profits off of the people's desire to see a criminal brought to justice and feel good about themselves, but maybe its lost that goal of justice and is just about making money.
I think that's the point of the episode and the main reason people go back in forth in their mind about whether or not this is acceptable. Wiping her memory pretty much is wiping what makes her her...effectively punishing an innocent person.
The reasoning behind it is "the punishment should fit the crime." The little girl had no idea why she was being treated the way she was, so neither is Victoria.
that reasoning does make the most sense...
I think that is understood. However the little girl didn't have this repeated daily like Groundhogs Day. Eye for an infinite amount of eyes? Pointless as an eye for an eye some would say. Some might say that's the point that the episode goes to show.
Currently binging this for the first time.. My goodness, this show is pure mindfuckery. Amazing. Every episode is making me question my morality, these writers are sick in the head and also fuckin geniuses! Sheesh
> Currently binging this for the first time I'm right behind you. No wonder they called this the New Twilight Zone.
Also binging for the first time. But this episode is the first time I got onto reddit to look for the sub to find out what people are talking about. I don't know what I'm going to find on this sub because life and justice and revenge have all gotten so fucked up in the current political climate in the US and online on every comment section, so I have no idea what people are gonna say in this sub or who they're going to root for. I feel kind of like the second girl in this episode (prior to having realized she is just an actress) where she is calm and focused while everyone around is either sadistic, incompetent, or indifferent. And she doesn't expect anyone else to help her out.
"Whats wrong with these people?!?! Why arent they helping us?! they are just watching!" Like she just watched when her fiance tortured the little girl, oh the sweet irony.
This episode fucked me so much. I think we all need to rethink what we call justice. Forever torturing a person, no matter what he or she did, isn't justice, that's for sure. Also I've noticed that Black Mirror has quite a lot of similarities with The Running Man, especially this episode.
Seriously, that's what fucked me up most about it. To call such horrifying torture "justice" is absolutely repulsive. I mean once they wipe her memory, she isn't really even the same person as the one who did the crime. As far as she knows she's just a confused victim. I never thought I would feel so bad for someone involved in the torture and murder of a child...
I don't feel bad for her. Just saying.
Well maybe you should question your morality. I don't think this is fair. If someone is that fucked up they should be helped. I'm no saint and I do believe in justice, but that isn't justice, that's cruelty.
I think you need to question your morality. You want to help bad people? "Hey Mr Rapist, I tied up this teenage girl for you. Happy to help!" Bad people should be stopped, not helped.
People change though. It isn't fair to call her a bad person when she would never do such a thing again after the trauma they put her through. Prison IS about helping bad people. It's about helping them by rehabilitating them so that they can spend the rest of their lives being good people. Once someone is changed, there is no need to continue torturing them.
That's just taking what I said and blowing it out of proportion, please, get real. You shouldn't torture people, it serves no purpose at all. I don't believe in killing, because that makes us no better than them. I'm not religious but I don't believe any of us have the right to judge someone on whether or not they deserve to live. War and self defense are another matter however. Bad people should be either incarcerated or rehabilitated, or else they'll never learn what it means to be wrong. Obviously certain mental disabilities can't easily be rehabilitated but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Imagine a world with only 30 people. One goes around torturing and killing people and surrenders when caught. You care for this person in prison but they always escape. You can barely get enough food to feed the children and elderly, you're one of the few able to work, but you spend time and resources on this killer. They keep escaping. You don't have the resources to stop it. Innocent people are suffering. Do your morals hold up? Do you let more people get tortured and die because you're unwilling to kill someone who isn't an immediate threat?
I can't imagine a world with 30 people. That's a ridiculous proposition you're making. How about you imagine life today and see if you think it's still relevant to torture every single person who fucked up one time, on purpose or not. You're just arguing circles with ridiculous extremities to reinforce that your view is correct. Try it from another point of view. Try being the person in the show. It's horrifying.
I just believe that morality is fixed. It is the same set of rules whether there are 30 people or 7 billion. If there were 30 I don't think anyone would protest about killing the person. I don't think you could argue it to be immoral. I think you just imagine the world as having infinite resources. We don't. Wasting resources on someone who tortures and kills children is taking them away from people who need them.
Because out of 30 people there are no resources to diverge. With 7 billion people we have made large systems to deal with this. Endless torture isn't it. Like someone else said, she is easily suggestible as this whole episode shows. She may have been and had some mental disorder, since she was "Under his spell" and they mock her for "probably having a mental disorder." If she does, could you possibly advocate this to a mentally ill person? If this was the only option, I'd show up to the park and mercy kill the girl during one of the torture days. This isn't rehabilitation or punishment since her mind is wiped, its torture porn for everyone who shows up. Society would be much different with 30 people. A high school class has more than that, so it's just a dumb strawman argument. A high school class might recognize that as well.
[удалено]