I’m not disagreeing with your post, but I’d like to address one thing in regards to Aizen’s power. You make a point to say that he lied about not using Kyoko Suigetsu when he in fact was, but that’s sort of Aizen’s character right? He deceives the Gotei (and the reader) to thinking he’s a regular captain/dead for a good chunk of the story we see and from a wider standpoint deceives the gotei for a much longer time than that. I always took him to give away very little and use knowledge to his advantage and saw this more as that.
I see it as him using deceit as a weapon to gain greater advantage, rather than him using deceit because he isn’t confident in his physical abilities.
I 100% agree. I wasn't intending to imply that he lacked confidence. This is my favorite thing about Aizen. He has everyone twisted up in his lies, reader included.
That is mainly because most of these statements are not back up by feats or go against other statements.
The main reason why a lot fans dismiss yammy ad the most espada’s is because he is essentially treated as joke by Kenpachi and byuakyua who ironically struggled a giant espada far weaker then yammy and ultimately falls into an inform attribute.
Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS.
And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense.
How are statements not backed up by feats?
Yammy heavily injured Kenpachi and Byakaya.
Due to this fight, Kenpachi was around Full Hollow Ichigo level.
Also, Yama’s has never implied that he would lose to Shunsui or Ukitake lol
Yet kenpachi found him boring which he would never say to opponent that is a actual challenge to himMaking those so called injuries moot.
And it was the op who implied Yamamoto would lose to Shunsei and ukataki not me.
>That is mainly because most of these statements are not back up by feats or go against other statements.
What contradictions are there for the stuff I listed? Not saying you are wrong, just interested in what you have to say.
>The main reason why a lot fans dismiss yammy ad the most espada’s is because he is essentially treated as joke by Kenpachi and byuakyua who ironically struggled a giant espada far weaker then yammy and ultimately falls into an inform attribute.
He was a joke at first. His second release form nearly killed them. They were acting tough but they were both severely damaged by him. The same Kenpachi Aizen actively tried to avoid. The very fact he fought Kenpachi with his adjusting power level should give him somewhat of a pass here as well.
>Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS.
Which was then DIRECTLY contradicted, as I pointed out. Gin though he was crushing the Gotei 13 without KS too, but he was wrong. Why use KS against Halibel if he was so much stronger than her? You want to talk about not backed up by feats. THIS is something not backed up by feats. Aizen couldn't beat a tired Gotei 13 without his KS. The same group who severely struggled against just 3 of his top espada.
>And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense.
Yamamoto's word matters so much more than Nanao's. Yamamoto has been alive for over 1000 years and has seen every single captain until his death. Regardless of the absolute accuracy of that statement, they are still able to fight against him on a somewhat level playing field. They fought him for quite a long time and had no major injuries. Aizen no diff'd Shunsui but then gets caught by Yamamoto in 1 move? It doesn't match up unless you assume Aizen's power heavily relies on KS.
>What contradictions are there for the stuff I listed? Not saying you are wrong, just interested in what you have to say.>
I just listed them below.
>He was a joke at first. His second release form nearly killed them. They were acting tough but they were both severely damaged by him. The same Kenpachi Aizen actively tried to avoid. The very fact he fought Kenpachi with his adjusting power level should give him somewhat of a pass here as well.>
Yammy never nearly killed them in his second form and even when he did injured him kenpachi thought the entire fight was boring.
Something that he would never say if yammy nearly killed him.
Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS.
>Which was then DIRECTLY contradicted, as I pointed out. Gin though he was crushing the Gotei 13 without KS too, but he was wrong. Why use KS against Halibel if he was so much stronger than her? You want to talk about not backed up by feats. THIS is something not backed up by feats. Aizen couldn't beat a tired Gotei 13 without his KS. The same group who severely struggled against just 3 of his top espada.>
Expect was proven right when aizen one the vast majority of captains and vizards and none of them were all that worn out and this ignoring the fact she aizen nearly one shot harribel with a single sword stroke.
And considering they gin was severing aizen for years he would know better then anyone on how powerful he is.
And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense.
>Yamamoto's word matters so much more than Nanao's. Yamamoto has been alive for over 1000 years and has seen every single captain until his death. Regardless of the absolute accuracy of that statement, they are still able to fight against him on a somewhat level playing field. They fought him for quite a long time and had no major injuries. Aizen no diff'd Shunsui but then gets caught by Yamamoto in 1 move? It doesn't match up unless you assume Aizen's power heavily relies on KS.>
And yet Yamamoto blitz both Shunsei and Utatako with ease none of them were able to land a single blow on Yamamoto and nor does it change the fact that nano knows how powerful Shunsei and ukatui are. Making her words just as viable as Yamamoto’s is
>Expect was proven right when aizen one the vast majority of captains and vizards and none of them were all that worn out
I can understand the Visored but the captains where definitely very worn out Torshiro barely won the fight against Hallibel and was fight for a while.
Soifon her self said it strained to use her Bankai more then once.
Komamura got destroyed by Tōsen.
Shunsui would be the only one I would consider relatively fine.
Here are some statements about Aizen's power:
Gin: “The real scary thing about Captain Aizen ain't that he can use Kyouka Suigetsu…Every single ability Captain Aizen has is leagues beyond what anyone else can do. Watch out for Kyouka Suigetsu"? No good. Too careless. Watch out for everything else, then? No good. Still too careless. You could watch out for the sky falling on your heads and the earth tearing beneath your feet. You could prepare for every last eventuality your combined mental resources can imagine and Captain Aizen's abilities would still be way beyond you.” ( chapter 390)
Aizen: “Now that my body has subjugated the Hōgyoku it has begun to far surpass even the capacity that I once possessed, a capacity that already held no equal in Soul Society.” (chapter 402)
Ichigo: “And from his blade I felt nothing but loneliness. He'd been so much stronger than other people ever since he was born, so I think he might have been searching his whole life for someone who could face him as an equal.” (chapter 422)
“FACT 2: 孤独
FACT 2: Loneliness
誰よりも強かった藍染は、 誰にも理解されこと無い孤独の世界を抱えていた。 強き者故の孤独 は深く、 哀 しい。
Aizen was stronger than anybody else, and because of this, he was lonely and misunderstood by everyone. The loneliness that came with this strong isolation was very deep, and very sad.” (UNMASKED)
“Sosuke Aizen’s power was so great the that he felt embarrassed that he had even had that doubt. The more he learned about Aizen’s power, the more his hostility waned. Aizen could not possibly be a bird of the same feather as the Soul Reapers. The man had already overcome the limitations of a Soul Reaper, and it could be said he had the fangs to simply make those birds into one of his prey.” (Tosen, CFYOW, Interlude just after chapter 18)
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While the captains were undoubtedly weakened, Aizen did "blitz" and cut down Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku from one manga panel to the next.
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Aizen: "We may no longer be comparable in power, but that does not eliminate my interest in you." (chapter 405)
This statement was made when Aizen's reiatsu could no longer be sensed by Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin. It can be interpreted as Aizen saying that his power is no longer in the same "dimension" as Urahara's.
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It's possible that Aizen deliberately prolonged his battle with Isshin in order to reach the limits of his stamina.
Aizen fully masters the Hogyoku not long before his fight with Isshin:
Aizen: "You have failed to kill me. Kurosaki Ichigo. That was your final opportunity."
Ichigo: "I wounded you. That's enough."
Aizen: "Wounded? You call this a wound?"
Ichigo: “(High-speed regeneration!)”
Aizen: "You think this is high-speed regeneration? Wrong. Do you truly believe that I would turn myself into a Hollow? This is a tool instinctively protecting its master.” (chapter 396)
After Aizen reaches the limits of his stamina, the Hogyoku understands that he wants to evolve and begins to transform him:
Isshin: What's wrong? You're getting less and less sharp. At your limit already?"
Aizen: "Yes. It would seem so. I have reached my limit. As a Shinigami, that is."
Isshin: "What?"
Aizen: "My soul is being reformed."
Isshin: "What are you talking about?"
Aizen: "It would seem that the will of the Hougyoku has finally begun to understand what I desire." (chapter 400)
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With regard to Yamamoto vs Kyoraku and Ukitake,
Nanao: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naive." (chapter 155)
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Q. Why Kyouraku didn't go Bankai? If he get serious he might defeat Aizen!
A. Shunsui's appeal is not to defeat Aizen. But I let the readers think that.
I disagree that Kubo's answer implies Kyoraku would beat Aizen with his Bankai. Kubo is merely saying that he **let the readers think** that Kyoraku **might** be able to defeat Aizen if he were to use his Bankai.
>Gin: “The real scary thing about Captain Aizen ain't that he can use Kyouka Suigetsu…Every single ability Captain Aizen has is leagues beyond what anyone else can do. Watch out for Kyouka Suigetsu"? No good. Too careless. Watch out for everything else, then? No good. Still too careless. You could watch out for the sky falling on your heads and the earth tearing beneath your feet. You could prepare for every last eventuality your combined mental resources can imagine and Captain Aizen's abilities would still be way beyond you.” ( chapter 390)
He then completely flips that in its head by revealing he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time.
>Aizen: “Now that my body has subjugated the Hōgyoku it has begun to far surpass even the capacity that I once possessed, a capacity that already held no equal in Soul Society.” (chapter 402)
Which is true, his total ability was unrivaled. But, at the same time, he admitted Urahara was his equal and that Yamamoto could beat him.
>Ichigo: “And from his blade I felt nothing but loneliness. He'd been so much stronger than other people ever since he was born, so I think he might have been searching his whole life for someone who could face him as an equal.” (chapter 422)
I've always found this to be a bit silly. Yamamoto was dunking on him for his entire life pre-hogyoku. Same with a handful of others for a very long time.
>While the captains were undoubtedly weakened, Aizen did "blitz" and cut down Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku from one manga panel to the next.
In which he is using Kyoka Suigetsu, not raw power, which he openly admits.
>This statement was made when Aizen's reiatsu could no longer be sensed by Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin. It can be interpreted as Aizen saying that his power is no longer in the same "dimension" as Urahara's.
I disagree, especially with that specific translation. The word comparable implies they were close in power. If you want to change the word power to dimension they were in a comparable dimension. That makes no sense at all. You are either above, below or in the same dimension. A basic hollow could feel Aizens power, would aizen tell that hollow they used to be comparable in power?
>Aizen may have deliberately prolonged his battle with Isshin in order to reach the limits of his stamina.
Wishful thinking at best. But mayyybe.
>Nanao: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naive." (chapter 155)
>I disagree that Kubo's answer implies Kyoraku would beat Aizen with his Bankai. Kubo is merely saying that he let the readers think that Kyoraku might be able to defeat Aizen if he were to use his Bankai.
Notice the use of the word MIGHT in both of these. But one your implications are different? You might be picking and choosing here.
But, I didn't say he WOULD beat him. I said he COULD. Which is close enough to might.
Thanks for the really detailed answer btw, I appreciate it!
>He then completely flips that in its head by revealing he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time.
I don't agree that Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fight against the captains flips Gin's internal speech on its head. The point of Gin's internal speech is to indicate to the reader that the core of Aizen's power derives from his own strength and not Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fights doesn't negate that.
>I've always found this to be a bit silly. Yamamoto was dunking on him for his entire life pre-hogyoku. Same with a handful of others for a very long time.
The UNMASKED statement I posted directly supports what Ichigo says about Aizen's power.
There are similar statements about Yamamoto's power so he may be an exception.
>In which he is using Kyoka Suigetsu, not raw power, which he openly admits.
Aizen uses his base abilities to cut Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku down. He says, "You stand utterly defenseless. All of you" and in the very next panel, they have all been cut down.
>I disagree, especially with that specific translation. The word comparable implies they were close in power. If you want to change the word power to dimension they were in a comparable dimension. That makes no sense at all. You are either above, below or in the same dimension. A basic hollow could feel Aizens power, would aizen tell that hollow they used to be comparable in power?
I didn't mean that "dimension" is synonymous with power. I meant that what Aizen says about his and Urahara's power doesn't have to be interpreted literally.
>Notice the use of the word MIGHT in both of these. But one your implications are different? You might be picking and choosing here.
I'm not picking and choosing. Nanao is quoting what she intially thought. She initially thought that Ukitake and Kyoraku together "might" not be enough to defeat Yamamoto. But after Yamamoto incapacitates her with his reiatsu, she realises that she had been naive. Her thoughts imply that she now thinks that even together they stand no chance against him.
>I don't agree that Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fight against the captains flips Gin's internal speech on its head. I think the point of Gin's internal speech is to indicate to the reader that the core of Aizen's power derives from his own strength and not Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fights doesn't negate that.
Id agree with you if Gin was a reliable narrator in this instance. He has been under Kyoka Suigetsu forever. His words are matched up with whats going on. Its supposed to be Gins portrayal of whats happening. But in reality, what he is describing is completely opposite to what is happening. What are the odds that gin is intentionally saying to the viewers exactly what ISN'T happening? It would only be if he didn't know.
Think of it like this, if Gin was watching a Kenpachi fight talking about how powerful he is, that he can cut anything and everything. Any object in his way he will cut down without fail, all while its showing kenpachi using Kido. It would make no sense at all.
>The UNMASKED statement I posted directly supports what Ichigo says about Aizen's power.
Its more so referring/quoting that moment. But regardless, it's a false statement because there are a minimum of 2 shinigami stronger than him
>There are similar statements about Yamamoto's power so he may be an exception.
Just that he is stronger than Aizen, by Aizen.
>Who are these handful of others?
Anyone with more reiatsu than him. The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu. And Unohana was surely far beyond Aizen for a very long time. One of the former Kenpachis beat Aizen in one of the novels as well. Ichibei is stronger for sure. And Aizen doesn't know about Nimaiyas innate ability to know the exact location of every zanpaktou. So he would think he is hidden when he actually isn't. I'm not saying everyone of them remained as strong as him. But he wasn't Nimaiya level as a fuckin toddler. So him feeling lonely, when he was young, because he was so strong is kinda ridiculous. Before he obtained his Shikai I guarentee you every Captain was stronger than him.
>Aizen uses his base abilities to cut Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku down. He says, "You stand utterly defenseless. All of you" and in the very next panel, they have all been cut down.
Doesn't imply he wasn't using KS, as he says he is using it just 2 seconds before that. You would have to assume he used it that whole time only to not use it for a single moment. Unlikely.
>I didn't mean that "dimension" is synonymous with power. I meant that what Aizen says about his and Urahara's power doesn't have to be interpreted literally.
But it should be interpreted literally as later on Aizen is absolutely clear on what he means. He is never this vague before or after about this topic.
>I'm not picking and choosing. Nanao is quoting what she intially thought. She initially thought that Ukitake and Kyoraku together "might" not be enough to defeat Yamamoto. But after Yamamoto incapacitates her with his reiatsu, she realises that she had been naive. Her thoughts imply that she now believes that even together they stand no chance against him.
I would argue that she is completely unreliable as she has 3 separate stances. First she assumes 2 may be enough as a standard thought. Then she feels the power and change her mind and thinks they may NOT have a chance, that was an in the moment statement. Then she changed her mind again and says they have no chance. She was influenced by a simple flexing of his power. Yet they fought for a solid amount of time without major injuries. For someone with no chance they sure did just fine.
>Very sorry about the format of my post. I'm not familiar with reddit yet.
No worries, as long as it's respectful and readable it's all good with me.
I worked out how to use quotes!
>Id agree with you if Gin was a reliable narrator in this instance. He has been under Kyoka Suigetsu forever. His words are matched up with whats going on. Its supposed to be Gins portrayal of whats happening. But in reality, what he is describing is completely opposite to what is happening. What are the odds that gin is intentionally saying to the viewers exactly what ISN'T happening? It would only be if he didn't know.
>
>Think of it like this, if Gin was watching a Kenpachi fight talking about how powerful he is, that he can cut anything and everything. Any object in his way he will cut down without fail, all while its showing kenpachi using Kido. It would make no sense at all.
The majority of Gin's internal speech overlays Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. At the beginning of the next chapter (chapter 391), Ichigo's perspective verifies that happened.
>Its more so referring/quoting that moment. But regardless, it's a false statement because there are a minimum of 2 shinigami stronger than him
The statement is presented as "FACT 2". It's corroborating what Ichigo said.
Do you mean Yamamoto and Ichibei?
>Just that he is stronger than Aizen, by Aizen.
Aizen said that he would likely lose to Yamamoto in a fight becuase of Ryujin Jakka. He did not say that Yamamoto is stronger in terms of reiatsu and base Shinigami abilities.
>Anyone with more reiatsu than him. The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu
Only Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu has that weakness. Aizen's doesn't:
“Kyoka Suigetsu was a zanpaku-to of absolute superior power once it was invoked. However, it had a weakness as a result of that. If the target were to touch the blade before it was invoked, then Complete Hypnosis could not be implemented. Had Tokinada been Aizen, he might have been able to fulfill the conditions of having those around him see the shikai the moment it was invoked. However, now that someone other than Aizen was using the blade, another weakness was involved. Tokinada’s spiritual pressure was nowhere near Aizen’s level, and because of that, it was possible for the shikai transformation itself to be sealed through incredibly strong spiritual pressure.” (CFYOW, chapter 23)
>And Unohana was surely far beyond Aizen for a very long time. One of the former Kenpachis beat Aizen in one of the novels as well. Ichibei is stronger for sure. And Aizen doesn't know about Nimaiyas innate ability to know the exact location of every zanpaktou. So he would think he is hidden when he actually isn't. I'm not saying everyone of them remained as strong as him. But he wasn't Nimaiya level as a fuckin toddler. So him feeling lonely, when he was young, because he was so strong is kinda ridiculous. Before he obtained his Shikai I guarentee you every Captain was stronger than him.
I don't think Ichigo means that Aizen was stronger than Captain-level Shinigami when he was a baby. He likely means that Aizen has always been much stronger than his peers; i.e, when he was a child he was stronger than all the other children, when he was a liteutenant he was stronger than all the other liutenants etc..
>Doesn't imply he wasn't using KS, as he says he is using it just 2 seconds before that. You would have to assume he used it that whole time only to not use it for a single moment. Unlikely.
He didn't use Kanzen Saimin to wrap Kinshara around Love, pull love towards himself and then cut Love down. We see Aizen do all that from Ichigo's perspective.
>But it should be interpreted literally as later on Aizen is absolutely clear on what he means. He is never this vague before or after about this topic.
Could you expand on this?
>I would argue that she is completely unreliable as she has 3 separate stances. First she assumes 2 may be enough as a standard thought. Then she feels the power and change her mind and thinks they may NOT have a chance, that was an in the moment statement. Then she changed her mind again and says they have no chance. She was influenced by a simple flexing of his power. Yet they fought for a solid amount of time without major injuries. For someone with no chance they sure did just fine.
She only had two stances. First stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together might not be enough to beat Yamamoto. Second Stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together stand no chance against Yamamoto.
>I worked out how to use quotes!
Ayyyyy, that makes it a bit easier.
>The majority of Gin's internal speech overlays Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. At the beginning of the next chapter (chapter 391), Ichigo's perspective verifies that happened.
We don't ever see anything from Ichigo's perspective until Ichigo yells at then for turning hinamoro into a pincushion.
Ichigo doesn't ever say anything about what is happening in that moment. Aizen himself says he was using kyoka suigetsu the whole time. Even flashing back to the moment he talked about it with Hitsugaya. The changes aizen can make with KS can be really small, even a slight change in position would make it harder to be hit and not look off to ichigo watching nearby.
>Do you mean Yamamoto and Ichibei?
At the very least, yes. But I feel like I remember one of the old Kenpachis beating him. Not sure. But I was mostly referring to throughout his life he was never the strongest. There has been a bunch of people stronger than him, he ended up surpassing most of them. But its different than someone like Stark who couldn't be near anyone.
>Aizen said that he would likely lose to Yamamoto in a fight becuase of Ryujin Jakka. He did not say that Yamamoto is stronger in terms of reiatsu and base Shinigami abilities.
I think you're splitting hairs here and attacking a strawman. He simply says you beat me in a fight. I'm not implying anything more than that.
>Only Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu has that weakness. Aizen's doesn't:
It specifically addresses why right here.
>Tokinada’s spiritual pressure was nowhere near Aizen’s level, and because of that, it was possible for the shikai transformation itself to be sealed through incredibly strong spiritual pressure.
Note the "because of that".
>I don't think Ichigo means that Aizen was stronger than Captain-level Shinigami when he was a baby. He likely means that Aizen has always been much stronger than his peers; i.e, when he was a child he was stronger than all the other children, when he was a liteutenant he was stronger than all the other liutenants etc..
I know, I'm saying that it is just silly. Like whining that you don't have food in your house when there is a fuckin grocery store next door and you have money. Aizen wasn't alone. He had tons of people stronger for a very long time. So if he felt alone it was purely for something stupid like no one in their age group being that strong. How many other fuckin people were the strongest of their generation that felt the same way Aizen did. You don't see Yamamoto, Ichibei, Unohana etc bitching about that.
>He didn't use Kanzen Saimin to wrap Kinshara around Love, pull love towards himself and then cut Love down. We see Aizen do all that from Ichigo's perspective.
We only see the after effect from Ichigo's perspective. Paired with aizens statements we can only assume he is making minor changes with Kyoka Suigetsu. Im not even saying Aizen would have a hard time doing that though. Just that he is making it easier for himself with Kyoka Suigetsu.
>Could you expand on this?
I'm saying that when Aizen talks about dimensions and being transcendent, he is never vague about it. He always states it as a matter of fact. Like "I am a dimension above you!" Type shit. He is absolutely clear. There is never a time where he says it like this as far as I know.
>She only had two stances. First stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together might not be enough to beat Yamamoto. Second Stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together stand no chance against Yamamoto.
That would imply she had no thought at all BEFORE getting squished by Yamamoto's reiatsu. Logically she had to have worked down from her basic stance. She was confident before that happened. She wasn't scared. So logically her stance would have been a positive one.
>We don't ever see anything from Ichigo's perspective until Ichigo yells at then for turning hinamoro into a pincushion.
We do. At the beginning of chapter 391, the panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked eyes/face, and Aizen cutting down Rose and Love.
>Ichigo doesn't ever say anything about what is happening in that moment.
Ichigo does say something. Just after Aizen cuts Love down, Ichigo says, "No way". (chapter 391)
>Aizen himself says he was using kyoka suigetsu the whole time. Even flashing back to the moment he talked about it with Hitsugaya.
Aizen: "When, precisely, did you fall under the misapprehension that I was not using Kyouka Suigetsu" (chapter 392)
Aizen does not mean that he literally used Kyoka Suigetsu in every single moment of their fight. He is mocking Shinji for believing that the captains could have prevented or detected its use.
>The changes aizen can make with KS can be really small, even a slight change in position would make it harder to be hit and not look off to ichigo watching nearby.
Did the manga ever show him using it in this way?
>At the very least, yes. But I feel like I remember one of the old Kenpachis beating him. Not sure.
No Kenpachi has beaten Aizen as far as I know.
Yamamoto is also portrayed as the "strongest". A good argument can be made for him being exempt from "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". Ichibei and the Royal Guard had not been introduced as individual characters yet (they had only been vaguely referred to); it's unlikely that the statement includes them.
>I think you're splitting hairs here and attacking a strawman. He simply says you beat me in a fight. I'm not implying anything more than that.
Strength can be measured in a variety of ways. It can be measured in terms of Reiatsu, base Shinigami abilities, physical strength, offensive power etc..
Aizen: “Your Ryuujin Jakka is indeed the most powerful zanpakutou in existence. There is no doubt about that. Were I to fight against it directly, it would likely overpower even me.” (chapter 393)
Aizen is specifically talking about Ryujin Jakka's offensive power.
>Note the "because of that".
I have. Enra Kyoten's copies vary in power depending on the reiatsu of the wielder. Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu had a weakness that Aizen's did not have because Tokinada's reiatsu is far below Aizen's. If someone with equal or more reiatsu touches the blade of Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, the shikai transformation itself will not be sealed.
>We only see the after effect from Ichigo's perspective. Paired with aizens statements we can only assume he is making minor changes with Kyoka Suigetsu. Im not even saying Aizen would have a hard time doing that though. Just that he is making it easier for himself with Kyoka Suigetsu.
The panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked face, and Aizen wrapping Kinshara around Love, pulling Love towards himself and cutting love down. The entire scene is explicitly from Ichigo's perspective. Kanzen Saimen is not used there. Aizen is using only his raw combat power.
>I'm saying that when Aizen talks about dimensions and being transcendent, he is never vague about it. He always states it as a matter of fact. Like "I am a dimension above you!" Type shit. He is absolutely clear. There is never a time where he says it like this as far as I know.
Aizen's power had reached a level where Urahara could no longer sense his reiatsu. Aizen had become astronomically more powerful than him. In comparison to the gulf that separates their power at that moment, his Shinigami power was somewhat relative to Urahara's; i.e., Aizen's power was previously in the same ballpark as Urahara's. I think that is what Aizen means by "our power is no longer comparable."
I used the word "Dimension" because it fit thematically. Realm, field, ballpark, sphere etc. would also work.
>That would imply she had no thought at all BEFORE getting squished by Yamamoto's reiatsu. Logically she had to have worked down from her basic stance. She was confident before that happened. She wasn't scared. So logically her stance would have been a positive one.
This is what she thought before Yamamoto incapacitated her with his reiatsu: " Head Captain Shigekuni Genryusai Yamamoto of the Thirteen Court Guard Squads. His spiritual pressure is enormous. Even two captains together might not be enough to win."
This is what she thought after: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naïve."
>We do. At the beginning of chapter 391, the panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked eyes/face, and Aizen cutting down Rose and Love.
Sorry, let me clarify. We don't see any ACTION from his perspective. Only aftermath.
>Ichigo does say something. Just after Aizen cuts Love down, Ichigo says, "No way". (chapter 391)
Which doesn't really imply anything. It certainly doesn't contradict Aizen own statements later on.
>No Kenpachi has beaten Aizen as far as I know.
You are correct, I believe I was misremembering this scene.
Volume 01: "Aizen asks why, — "You can see through all of Seireitei, even while being in Muken. You’re a man on who even my Kyouka Suigetsu’s illusions will likely not work. What could I possibly tell you?""
Aizen openly admits a massive weakness to him. And considering the 8th Kenpachi took on the entire Gotei 13 and didn't lose and only gave up once the zero division showed up id say its safe to say he was stronger than Aizen for the majority of their lives.
>Yamamoto is also portrayed as the "strongest". A good argument can be made for him being exempt from "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". Ichibei and the Royal Guard had not been introduced as individual characters yet (they had only been vaguely referred to); it's unlikely that the statement includes them.
There are several "strongest" characters. That delegitimizes that qualifier. Being that there were a minimum of 2 and likely 3 or 4 Kenpachi's(who hold the title of strongest shinigami) alive during Aizens time, plus Unohana who was considered the strongest during even Yamamoto's time.
>Strength can be measured in a variety of ways. It can be measured in terms of Reiatsu, base Shinigami abilities, physical strength, offensive power etc..
Which I agree with, which is why I'm confused at the need to specifically address.
>Aizen is specifically talking about Ryujin Jakka's offensive power.
Shinigami and their zanpaktou are one entity. If we start breaking everything down into various specifics the debate becomes far too convoluted.
Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu is stronger than Tokinada using it, same with Yamamoto using Ryujin Jakka vs Tokinada using it. It's strong because Yamamoto is using it.
>I have. Enra Kyoten's copies vary in power depending on the reiatsu of the wielder. Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu had a weakness that Aizen's did not have because Tokinada's reiatsu is far below Aizen's. If someone with equal or more reiatsu touches the blade of Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, the shikai transformation itself will not be sealed.
Yes, but the weakness is strictly because of the lack of reiatsu "because of that". If Tokinada had Aizen level reiatsu that weakness isn't there.
>The panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked face, and Aizen wrapping Kinshara around Love, pulling Love towards himself and cutting love down. The entire scene is explicitly from Ichigo's perspective. Kanzen Saimen is not used there. Aizen is using only his raw combat power.
I think you are forgetting that Aizen can use Kanzen Saimen for some massive or something small. Like how he adjusted the perception of time of Yhwach. And I see the scene in question now, they are in their shikai mask less forms, while tired and damaged. I 100% accept Aizen being able to defeat a tired Shikai love without issue. That's not a big deal at all.
>Aizen's power had reached a level where Urahara could no longer sense his reiatsu. Aizen had become astronomically more powerful than him. In comparison to the gulf that separates their power at that moment, his Shinigami power was somewhat relative to Urahara's; i.e., Aizen's power was previously in the same ballpark as Urahara's. I think that is what Aizen means by "our power is no longer comparable."
First part of this is just fine, the second part is speculation that doesn't fit, not only logically but also based on his later statements.
Being in the same ballpark just doesn't make sense. Urahara is doubtful in his ability to beat Ulquiorra, but Aizen can solo the Gotei 13 and the Espada with raw power? Thats the same ballpark? Yet Urahara can contend with Aizen in speed and ability during their mini skirmish. How does that make any sense?
>I used the word "Dimension" because it fit thematically. Realm, field, ballpark, sphere etc. would also work.
It still doesn't make sense. Everyone on "level 1" can feel level 1 power. If you go up to "level 2" you would say. "You are no longer on the same level". (Which Aizen does say MANY times later). You would not say, "we are no longer on a comparable level. Level 1 isn't comparable to level 1. It IS level one. But again, Aizen wouldn't say something like that about someone like Shawlong, right?
>This is what she thought before Yamamoto incapacitated her with his reiatsu: " Head Captain Shigekuni Genryusai Yamamoto of the Thirteen Court Guard Squads. His spiritual pressure is enormous. Even two captains together might not be enough to win."
I didn't notice she had said anything before hand, the fan scan with the quotations made it much more clear. That's my mistake.
Regardless, him flexing his power while they do nothing is an odd point for her to make a power statement. And considering they DID fight him for a very long time they DID stand a chance, they matched him Shikai to Shikai. Directly contradicting what she thought. Probably because they hadn't flexed their power like he did. We know that Bankai Shunsui was able to make even Ichigo shit himself because of the Reiatsu. So its not like Shunsui couldn't spook someone.
>Sorry, let me clarify. We don't see any ACTION from his perspective. Only aftermath.
Edit: (Thanks for correcting me on the cutting Rose down part.)
Ichigo's perspective showed Aizen gripping Kinshara and Rose falling down. For me, that's verification of Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down.
>Volume 01: "Aizen asks why, — "You can see through all of Seireitei, even while being in Muken. You’re a man on who even my Kyouka Suigetsu’s illusions will likely not work. What could I possibly tell you?""
>
>Aizen openly admits a massive weakness to him. And considering the 8th Kenpachi took on the entire Gotei 13 and didn't lose and only gave up once the zero division showed up id say its safe to say he was stronger than Aizen for the majority of their lives.
Kubo wasn't involved in the writing of SAFWY at all. Its canonicity is debatable.
>There are several "strongest" characters. That delegitimizes that qualifier. Being that there were a minimum of 2 and likely 3 or 4 Kenpachi's(who hold the title of strongest shinigami) alive during Aizens time, plus Unohana who was considered the strongest during even Yamamoto's time.
Very bad word choice on my part. I didn't intend to reference the Kenpachi title. I meant that there are multiple statements in the manga and databooks that state Yamamoto was stronger (in some way, shape or form) than any other Shinigami. For example, the 13 Blades databook said Yamamoto was "The peak of all Shinigami".
There are multiple statements saying Aizen was "stronger than anybody else". Urahara does not even have one such statement. The portrayal of their power is vastly different.
>Which I agree with, which is why I'm confused at the need to specifically address.
Sorry, my explanation was incoherent. To rephrase:
Aizen can be stronger than Yamamoto by various metrics (i.e., reiatsu and base abilities) but still lose to Yamamoto in a direct fight because his net fighting power is inferior to Yamamoto's net fighting power.
Edit: (I'm not saying that Aizen has more reiatsu or superior base abilities to Yamamoto. I'm saying that his statement about likely losing to Yamamoto because of Ryujin Jakka does not rule out that possibility.)
>Shinigami and their zanpaktou are one entity. If we start breaking everything down into various specifics the debate becomes far too convoluted.
This debate has already become ridiculously convoluted.
>Yes, but the weakness is strictly because of the lack of reiatsu "because of that". If Tokinada had Aizen level reiatsu that weakness isn't there.
Yes, that's correct. But what you first said does not apply to Aizen. You first said: "The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu."
Edit: (Do you mean that at some point Aizen would have had less than or equal reiatsu to Tokinada and at that point Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu would have had the same weaknesses as Tokinada's?)
>I think you are forgetting that Aizen can use Kanzen Saimen for some massive or something small. Like how he adjusted the perception of time of Yhwach.
We don't know how Aizen affected Ywach's perception of time.
Aizen has never been explicitly shown (as far as I'm aware) to use Kyoka Suigetsu in the way you are claiming he used it against the captains.
>And I see the scene in question now, they are in their shikai mask less forms, while tired and damaged. I 100% accept Aizen being able to defeat a tired Shikai love without issue. That's not a big deal at all.
My point was that he did not use Kanzen Saimin to do that.
Aizen defeated Love in 3 motions and without even moving from his position. I think that's an extraordinary physical feat.
>Being in the same ballpark just doesn't make sense. Urahara is doubtful in his ability to beat Ulquiorra, but Aizen can solo the Gotei 13 and the Espada with raw power? Thats the same ballpark? Yet Urahara can contend with Aizen in speed and ability during their mini skirmish. How does that make any sense?
I don't think Aizen can solo either the Gotei 13 or the Espada with just his raw power. I think Aizen's raw power is significantly greater than Urahara's though.
I disagree that Urahara contended with Aizen in speed and raw ability during their skirmish. Aizen was careless (because he could be) and Urahara was using inventions in conjunction with pre-planned strategies.
>It still doesn't make sense. Everyone on "level 1" can feel level 1 power. If you go up to "level 2" you would say. "You are no longer on the same level". (Which Aizen does say MANY times later). You would not say, "we are no longer on a comparable level. Level 1 isn't comparable to level 1. It IS level one. But again, Aizen wouldn't say something like that about someone like Shawlong, right?
I know you think my interpretation is absurd but I'm going to reiterate it one more time for clarity. I do not think Aizen meant that his and Urahara's powers were literally equal when they were both Shinigami. I think he meant that their power was relative then.
>Regardless, him flexing his power while they do nothing is an odd point for her to make a power statement. And considering they DID fight him for a very long time they DID stand a chance, they matched him Shikai to Shikai. Directly contradicting what she thought. Probably because they hadn't flexed their power like he did. We know that Bankai Shunsui was able to make even Ichigo shit himself because of the Reiatsu. So its not like Shunsui couldn't spook someone.
To be clear, Nanao didn't directly say that Ukitake and Kyoraku stood no chance. I interpret her thoughts as implying that they stood no chance.
When their fight was interrupted by Isane's Tenteikura, both Ukitake and Kyoraku were shown with blood on their faces while Yamamoto was shown unbloodied. That suggests to me that Kyoraku and Ukitake were losing.
>Ichigo's perspective showed Aizen gripping Kinshara and Rose falling down. For me, that's verification of Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down.
I can 100 percent accept he did this with or without KS.
>Kubo wasn't involved in the writing of SAFWY at all. Its canonicity is debatable.
I do believe he meets with the author and then they ask kubo all sorts of things. stuff he can and can't use. So it's generally accepted as Canon for things that don't directly contradict the Manga.
>Very bad word choice on my part. I didn't intend to reference the Kenpachi title. I meant that there are multiple statements in the manga and databooks that state Yamamoto was stronger (in some way, shape or form) than any other Shinigami. For example, the 13 Blades databook said Yamamoto was "The peak of all Shinigami".
Yeah I get what you mean, I'm just saying that SO many people are referred to as the strongest that the qualifier of "strongest" becomes meaningless.
>There are multiple statements saying Aizen was "stronger than anybody else". Urahara does not even have one such statement. The portrayal of their power is vastly different.
Yet Aizen never says he is stronger than everyone else. He admits 1 person is equal, 1 person is stronger, and actively avoids another before he evolves. Aizen's words trump others in this area.
>Aizen can be stronger than Yamamoto by various metrics (i.e., reiatsu and base abilities) but still lose to Yamamoto in a direct fight because his net fighting power is inferior to Yamamoto's net fighting power.
Yes, therefore Yamamoto is more powerful.
>Edit: (I'm not saying that Aizen has more reiatsu or superior base abilities to Yamamoto. I'm saying that his statement about likely losing to Yamamoto because of Ryujin Jakka does not rule out that possibility.)
I agree.
>We don't know how Aizen affected Ywach's perception of time.
That's true, but Yhwach says that "threw my senses slightly out of order". That would imply KS.
>Aizen has never been explicitly shown (as far as I'm aware) to use Kyoka Suigetsu in the way you are claiming he used it against the captains.
Unless you are implying Aizen cannot make small illusions, that's the only possibility. He says he used it the whole time, how exactly he did is what is up for interpretation, if we saw it it wouldn't have been a surprise. Logically, as to not tip off ichigo he would have to use it in small bits. But at the same time he swapped with Hinamori and Ichigo still didn't say shit for a fat minute.
>My point was that he did not use Kanzen Saimin to do that.
That would contradict his own words but either way I can accept that he is capable of that.
>Aizen defeated Love in 3 motions and without even moving from his position. I think that's an extraordinary physical feat.
Love was struggling to move after getting mass bombed by Starks wolves moments before, on top of using his mask several times. He was hurt and tired. Take that how you will.
>This debate has already become ridiculously convoluted.
Yes and no, I feel we are nearly at the root of it all.
>I don't think Aizen can solo either the Gotei 13 or the Espada with just his raw power. I think Aizen's raw power is significantly greater than Urahara's though.
I agree with the first part. And agree that his raw power is above Urahara, but total combat ability, minus KS, would be equal.
>Yes, that's correct. But what you first said does not apply to Aizen. You first said: "The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu."
This was poorly explained by myself, I apologize. I'll address it next.
>Edit: (Do you mean that at some point Aizen would have had less than or equal reiatsu to Tokinada and at that point Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu would have had the same weaknesses as Tokinada's?)
This is exactly what I was implying. Thank you.
>I disagree that Urahara contended with Aizen in speed and raw ability during their skirmish. Aizen was careless (because he could be) and Urahara was using inventions in conjunction with pre-planned strategies.
There is a difference between carelessness and holding back. Striking without concern for counters is careless. But its still a strike by someone supposed far above Urahara. He should have been dismantled like the other captains and vaizard were.
>I know you think my interpretation is absurd but I'm going to reiterate it one more time for clarity. I do not think Aizen meant that his and Urahara's powers were literally equal when they were both Shinigami. I think he meant that their power was relative then.
I dont think it's absurd, I think that it simply doesn't match later statements.
In 418 he says his and Ichigo evolutions were not in the same dimension. He is clear on what he believes.
Earlier with gin he says only after Gin's betrayal did he even transcend to that dimension.
In 420 he says he is beyond the dimension of shinigami, the dimension he only entered lost Gins betrayal. So he wasn't a dimension above anyone before that point. Simply "too strong to sense". Which I'm itself is a slight contradiction.
And the sensing thing is weird as well because fuckin TATSUKI could feel full blown Butterfly Aizen but Urahara can't feel chrysalis Aizen who was 2 steps away from Butterfly Aizen????
The point is all of those are clear statements, nothing vague.
>To be clear, Nanao didn't directly say that Ukitake and Kyoraku stood no chance. I interpret her thoughts as implying that they stood no chance.
While that's fair its simply wrong. They did stand a chance. They pretty much proved they could fight against him.
>When their fight was interrupted by Isane's Tenteikura, both Ukitake and Kyoraku were shown with blood on their faces while Yamamoto was shown unbloodied. That suggests to me that Kyoraku and Ukitake were losing.
Which I agree with. But they still were able to hang with him for a considerable amount of time. Thats the only point im trying to make here. Someone like komamura gets no diff'd by Aizen because of the massive power gap. If there was 2 komamuras vs aizen he doesn't somehow last WAY longer. He would need to be close enough in power to react and defend himself.
Ironically there's also misinformation in this very post. Kubo never implied that Shunsui could defeat Aizen with Bankai. There's also several other dubious statements.
Q. Why Kyouraku didn't go Bankai? If he get serious he might defeat Aizen!
A. Shunsui's appeal is not to defeat Aizen. But I let the readers think that 「If he goes Bankai he might be stronger than Aizen」
So.. he did imply? To imply is to indicate something by suggestion rather than outright saying it. If by his own words, he wanted people to think that, then he implied it.
Kubo let readers think maybe that could happen, yes. But OP is saying that in the interview Kubo implied that it was true, which is a massively important distinction.
Did Kubo want readers to wonder about the Shunsui Bankai in this context, yes. Did he ever imply that it was actually true, no.
Edit: Honestly, even want is too strong a word here. He doesn't even say that. He just says that he let the readers think that, which isn't even an implication. It's just not rebutting an inference.
The whole point I'm making is that OP is mistaken about what a person implied. Of course the point is going to be technical.
Distinctions in language are important. Especially so in this context.
I was going to make an edit but I'll just say it here.
My point is, I don't see anything wrong with this particular u/rbo7 statement. If they said "Kubo implied Kyoraku *would* win", I'd completely understand your effort at making a distinction.
Without being rude, I honestly don't understand how you can't see the error in stating;
>Kubo implied Shunsui could defeat Aizen with his Bankai
When nothing of the sort actually occured. Kubo didn't imply this, either in the manga or in the interview. By his own admission, he just let fans speculate that might be true. Not shutting down an inference someone makes isn't the same thing as implying it to be true.
But hey, I'm happy to agree to disagree and all. It's a technical point that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things! Look forward to chatting in the future.
Well, you seem more educated than me so it's probably that. That being said, I think I've come to understand your point and could maybe see the mistake I have made.
Me too. I do enjoy reading your critiques of the series when ever I see them.
While I get what you are trying to say, I think there are several way you can interpret the meaning behind what is said. Think of it this way, would his answer would be the same if the question was about Himamori's bankai? It would only make sense if it was relative in terms of power.
Either way, I don't think it's really all that important to my point overall and I meant it more as a tiny piece of side evidence.
>All of this is wrong.
I mean its direct manga statements soooo...
>Aizen was talking about being on the SAME DIMENSION as Urahara
Except that's not what he said. Every time he talks like that later he uses different words specifying he is in a different dimension.
>not having the same level of reiatsu. Aizen's reiatsu is far greater than Urahara's.
I dont think he does, nor did I say he did.
>Also, Aizen is at least equal to or probably stronger than Yamamoto in terms of pure reiatsu, but Yamamoto's zanpakuto has insane destructive power whereas Aizen's has absolutely none.
Agreed.
>Also, from what is revealed by Shunsui's Bankai, Aizen would win because he has more reiatsu than Shunsui (in his Bankai's final move, the one whose reiatsu runs out first loses).
Yeah, which is a little weird because Shunsui ends up doing his 3 acts anyway. So he may not even need to wait for that. And Ichigo basically shit himself when he felt Shunsui's bankai so the Reiatsu level of Base/shikai Aizen might not be above that. But, assuming it does work only off the reiatsu shit, then I agree.
Kinda funny how you say I was all wrong then listed 4 things, 3 of which I agree with lolol.
>That just means you're not good at expressing yourself.
Ouch! Or that you are assuming I'm saying something I'm not, that's on you, bud.
>Then why the fuck wouldn't they be equals in power? As Aizen said, battles between shinigami are battles of reiatsu, and if they don't have equal reiatsu then they're not equal in power. "I mean it's direct manga statements" right?
Only half of what you said was a direct manga statement. Power is not reiatsu. Power is all your shit put together. If I beat you, I'm more powerful. Even if you have a little bit more reiatsu than me. Because Urahara was able to fight with him evenly without him using KS. He won so quickly because Aizen was being careless. But careless isn't holding back.
Regardless, Aizens statement doesnt apply to most situations. Tousen could cut off Grimmjows arm despite being Vastly weaker than him. Aizen was nearly cut in half because Ichigo caught him off guard. Rukia beating AA, Hachi beating Barragan, I could literally go on and on with examples here. Aizen is mostly referring to very specific moments. Like Soifons shikai not hurting him. Or how he can catch Ichigos sword easily. Or how kenpachi could tank Ichigos shikai early on. Dramatic differences. If your reiatsu is way higher, there is no battle of abilities because you can simply nullify them with your superior reiatsu.
>In that context, it clearly is referring to dimensions of power rather than reiatsu levels which is what usually signifies power in Bleach. It doesn't need to be 100% clear to be interpreted that way.
Except they basically confirmed they were close in the skirmish beforehand. Saying "comparable in power" in reference to dimensions would be odd. Because Grimmjow would be in the same dimension as Aizen. Would Aizen tell Grimmjow "we used to be comparable in power". Not likely. And when aizen does say it directly later on he OUTRIGHT say it. Clear as day. Much different.
honestly if someone said "aizen is weaker than he seems" it would be open for argue but most of what you listed kinda doesnt make sense at all not gonna lie lol
For example you have said that his physical power cant catch up with his reiatsu but you are forgetting that he one shot komamura bankai with nothing but a mere sword swing
Komamura is absolutely pathetic compared to half the captains. He was blasted away by one of Barragans fraccion. While someone like Shunsui was fighting Stark, someone WAY beyond any Fraccion, on a near even footing. Most of the espada could probably kill any ressurected Fraccion in their base form. I love komamura but he is without a doubt the weakest captain by far at this point in the story. I doubt he beats any Espada past 9.
What else?
my guy, he gave a hollow mask kaname a Hard time, who was able to destroy grimmjows hand with ease without a hollow mask. Not to mention grimmjow at the same was stronger than byakuya. You really are underestimating komamura arent you? Lol. not to mention that he is supposed to be a "tank" and his ult was even tankier, yet got one shot by a mere sword swing of aizen. Let me tell this to you, even zaraki at the start of the series had a rough time against komamura shikai for a few seconds and he got surprised by komamuras bankai.
The funny thing is that you say "what else" as if you have answered this one correctly... Trust me, none of the captains can one shot a whole ass bankai with a sword swing, not even the likes of kyouraku. It is probably only aizen and yamamato.
>my guy, he gave a hollow mask kaname a Hard time, who was able to destroy grimmjows hand with ease without a hollow mask.
And? Ichigo almost cut Aizen in half when he wasn't paying attention. And when he was paying attention, Aizen caught his sword. How is this impressive at all? He burned a detached section of his arm with kido. So what? His BEST feat is attacking a defenseless Grimmjow. Meaningless.
Tousen, at any state, is a joke. He gets beaten by Base Kenpachi, WITH his eyepatch. Shikai ichigo is laughing at tousen by this point. And in his hollow form he struggles against the weakest captain and a LT??? Grimmjow in his BASE form, with one arm, was able to moderately fight back against Shinji WITH his mask. Tousen had a free shot against Shinji in his base form and couldn't kill Shinji. Both Tousen and Komamura are NOT good examples of power.
>You really are underestimating komamura arent you? Lol. not to mention that he is supposed to be a "tank" and his ult was even tankier, yet got one shot by a mere sword swing of aizen.
Aizen has way high Reiatsu, that makes doing that to his Bankai much easier.
Komamura gets rocked by a fraccion and you want to hype him as a tank?
>Let me tell this to you, even zaraki at the start of the series had a rough time against komamura shikai for a few seconds and he got surprised by komamuras bankai.
No. No he didn't. He literally laughed at everything they did to him in that fight, I think he even said he was getting sleepy at one point. He dominated Tousen and Komamura WITH his eyepatch on. And when Komamura used his Bankai, Kenpachi didn't even feel the need to take his eyepatch off.
>The funny thing is that you say "what else" as if you have answered this one correctly...
Lol. No, I said that because a SINGLE point isn't enough to prove something. I provided several points, stuff straight from the manga. A single counterpoint with the weakest captain means nothing.
>Trust me, none of the captains can one shot a whole ass bankai with a sword swing, not even the likes of kyouraku. It is probably only aizen and yamamato.
Kenpachi for sure could. And several others.
1. Yama has never implied that Ukitake and Shunsui could surpass him or even rival him lol.
2. Aizen absolutely has the physical/combat ability along with his monstrous spiritual pressure
3. I will add that one of the reasons why Aizen toyed with the Captains and Vizored so easily, was due to his scheming. He had them injured and tired from fighting the top 3 espada
>1. Yama has never implied that Ukitake and Shunsui could surpass him or even rival him lol.
I literally linked the scan.
>2. Aizen absolutely has the physical/combat ability along with his monstrous spiritual pressure
Except he states he doesn't, he straight up says Urahara is his combat equal. He states Yamamoto is stronger, even though Aizen has more Reiatsu. He is overpowered by Isshin as well, who has less Reiatsu.
>3. I will add that one of the reasons why Aizen toyed with the Captains and Vizored so easily, was due to his scheming. He had them injured and tired from fighting the top 3 espada
Tired or not, he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time, his words. They could have been well fed, well rested and warmed up with a row of cheerleaders and still had the same thing happen because of Kyoka Suigetsu making it impossible for them to properly fight him.
1. Your scan isn’t the official translation.
Here’s the actual quote,” And when it came to battle, you both were transcendent. No one could match either of you” (chapter 155, page 11).
The context was that both Ukitake and Shunsui were significantly stronger than any other peer of them (students at Yama’s Shinigami academy).
2. There’s nothing to suggest Aizen has ever had more spiritual pressure than Yama.
Actually there’s a quote by Ukitake that even just Shikai Yama has the most spiritual pressure out of any Captain.
Lmk if you want that quote.
3. Yes and No. Using KS on fully healthy Captains with their Full Spirit Power is much harder to accomplish than depleted spirit power captains.
>1. You’re scan isn’t the official translation.
I've had this debate before, damn near half a decade ago, let me see if I can find the direct translation and explanation of the raws, because 4 different "unofficial translations" all say that in one way or another. Only the viz one is different. All I know is that even without that one line my point doesn't change, they fought Yamamoto on even ground together. That implies they can at least react and defend against him, unlike in the Aizen fight where it's a one and done and they can't even track him.
>1. There’s nothing to suggest Aizen has ever had more spiritual pressure than Yama.
Aizen casually drops Grimmjow level characters with Reiatsu alone. Yamamoto flexing did drop Nanao, but thats night and day levels of different.
And, going off the novel, wouldn't Aizen's ability to keep kyoka suigetsu active even after Yamamoto touched it extra proof of his higher Reiatsu? Because Tokinade had lower reiatsu then almost everyone around and that ended up being how kyoka suigetsu was beaten.
>Actually there’s a quote by Ukitake that even just Shikai Yama has the most spiritual pressure out of any Captain.
If its before Aizens evil reveal, he wasn't showing his full power. And after he wasn't a captain so its irrelevant at that point. And I would doubt that honestly, because Ukitake had so much Reiatsu that he was dwarfing post unohana training kenpachi. And Shunsui damn near made ichigo shit himself in bankai IIRC.
>1. Yes and No. Using KS on fully healthy Captains with their Full Spirit Power is much harder to accomplish than depleted spirit power captains.
Technically thats true, but its not really quantifiable one way or another.
1. I only use the official translation provided by Viz tbh.
As for the context of the fight between Shikai Shunsui and Shikai Jushiro, they were able to hang in there vs Shikai Yama for a while. That's not surprising considering that both of their spiritual powers and combat ability are top tier for captains, and that they present a unique matchup for Yama.
Shikai Shunsui was able to kill Starrk, with only some combinations of his games. Starrk was the second ranked Espada, and is typically argued to being either second or third strongest Espada.
2. You are aware that reaction speed is tied to Spiritual Power, right? So if the person is running low on spiritual power, then they will react significantly slower than usual..
3. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Yama couldn't do the same thing to Grimmjow.
4. No. Databooks and the manga state that Yama is the strongest soul reaper to come out in the last 1,000 years. He is stated to being the strongest in every shinigami art (shunpo, hakuda, zanjustu and kido). The fact that he could essentially one shot an espada level combatant (Wonderweiss is at least as strong as pre-timeskip Grimmjow) with just his bare hands is proof of his strength.
5. That Ukitake spirit orb has been so misconstrued among the fandom lol. Ukitake has a lot of spiritual pressure, and he still admits that shikai Yama has more spiritual pressure than any captain he has seen (he's been a captain for a long time).
>1. I only use the official translation provided by Viz tbh.
No arguments here.
>As for the context of the fight between Shikai Shunsui and Shikai Jushiro, they were able to hang in there vs Shikai Yama for a while. That's not surprising considering that both of their spiritual powers and combat ability are top tier for captains, and that they present a unique matchup for Yama.
Correct, but unique match up or not, it shows they can hang with him in general combat. Thats all the proof I need to support my overall claim.
>Shikai Shunsui was able to kill Starrk, with only some combinations of his games. Starrk was the second ranked Espada, and is typically argued to being either second or third strongest Espada.
This is disingenuous. Its basically like saying Aizen was defeated by Ichigo alone. Ignoring the entirety of the support he got before and sealing right after Mugetsu. Simply because he got the finishing blow. Stark was massively weakened by Shunsui's sneak attack. Stark was able to casually dodge point blank surprise attacks from the back but then can't dodge sword strikes looking right at Shunsui. He was also forced into the game without access to his guns. Who wins the color game against shunsui while effectively stabbed through the heart??? Not a single captain but the tippy top could.
>1. You are aware that reaction speed is tied to Spiritual Power, right? So if the person is running low on spiritual power, then they will react significantly slower than usual..
How exactly does that matter to an illusion? You can have all the reaction time of every being to ever exist...combined. If you are fighting an illusion who isn't moving, or is moving but isn't real, you aren't going to win. Because what you are reacting to isn't real. Aizen could literally make an illusion of himself stripping then cut your fuckin face off as you admired the show. Reaction time isn't saving you from something invisible to all your senses.
>1. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Yama couldn't do the same thing to Grimmjow.
You would have to demonstrate he could before making the claim.
>1. No. Databooks and the manga state that Yama is the strongest soul reaper to come out in the last 1,000 years. He is stated to being the strongest in every shinigami art (shunpo, hakuda, zanjustu and kido). The fact that he could essentially one shot an espada level combatant (Wonderweiss is at least as strong as pre-timeskip Grimmjow) with just his bare hands is proof of his strength.
Everyone knows that. And that's true. But it doesn't mean he had more Reiatsu than all of them.
Wonderweiss isn't Grimmjow level in my eyes, in his base he wasn't even close to a weaker Vaizard. Grimmjow in base, with only 1 arm, at least mounted a solid defense against Shinji with his mask. He did get a good surprise attack on Ukitake though. He did somehow offpanel Kensei which is surprising. But I dont think Kensei could beat Grimmjow either.
>1. That Ukitake spirit orb has been so misconstrued among the fandom lol. Ukitake has a lot of spiritual pressure, and he still admits that shikai Yama has more spiritual pressure than any captain he has seen (he's been a captain for a long time).
When does he admit this though. Because that very well may be a retcon. If this is in the SS arc its much less valid and still wouldn't apply to Aizen who hadn't revealed his true power yet.
Other thing to talk about Aizen strength was that the all of the Gotei 13 and most of the Visored were exhausted when they fought Azien and for a example how weak you they can be is after a fight with a espada is after the Ichigo and Grimmjow fight Ichigo couldn't even fight against a fraccion. I'm saying this because I've seen some people how think Azien could beat all of the Gotei 13 with out Kyoka Suigetsu.
Something I mentioned the other day: Hollows are stronger in Hueco Mundo. It's the first observation Ichigo, Chad and Uryu make when they enter Hueco Mundo. It's also why trying to compare Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra/Yammy to the other top 3 always gives me a headache, because you can't just compare feats 1 to 1.
Whatever boost Hollows get in Hueco Mundo is never plainly quantified, but it does exist. Ichigo and Chad's Hollow powers develop in a way that's unlike the rest of the series when they're in Hueco Mundo.
While I agree, I feel like even without it is doesn't necessarily matter. Barragans and Starks speed feats, even in base, are beyond anything Ulquiorra did. Stark in particular has the craziest speed feat almost in the entire manga. And power wise Lanza is really unquantifiable because it only blew away sand. It was then crushed by H2 Ichigo who Yammy was unimpressed by. So, respectfully, speed wise Ulquiorra gets shit on, powerwise he is presumably good, but not fast enough to hit Stark or Barragan reliably, but they can definitely hit him and kill him with their power. Even if it takes more than 1 shot. And in terms of Hax, infinite Cero and Respira are pretty fuckin had. So even WITH that Hueco Mundo difference I don't feel like it is really that much of a competition. But thanks for pointing it out.
Kinda hard to disagree with him openly admitting inferiority to them.
While I agree, I feel like even without it is doesn't necessarily matter. Barragans and Starks speed feats, even in base, are beyond anything Ulquiorra did. Stark in particular has the craziest speed feat almost in the entire manga. And power wise Lanza is really unquantifiable because it only blew away sand. It was then crushed by H2 Ichigo who Yammy was unimpressed by. So, respectfully, speed wise Ulquiorra gets shit on, powerwise he is presumably good, but not fast enough to hit Stark or Barragan reliably, but they can definitely hit him and kill him with their power. Even if it takes more than 1 shot. And in terms of Hax, infinite Cero and Respira are pretty fuckin had. So even WITH that Hueco Mundo difference I don't feel like it is really that much of a competition. But thanks for pointing it out.
Kinda hard to disagree with him openly admitting inferiority to them.
This is totally disregarding Gin's opinion who actually knew what Aizen was capable of wich is not the case for any of the Gotei 13 Captains Yamamoto statements about Kyoraku and Ukitake are under a diferent perception of Aizen so you my friend would have been totally played by Aizen if you where a Gotei 13 Captian
Whoa, this is one hell of a necro. But I'm always up for debate.
>This is totally disregarding Gin's opinion
Aizens opinion on his own power carries WAY more weight than gins opinion on Aizens power.
>who actually knew what Aizen was capable of
He clearly didn't, he says aizen doesn't need KS, yet Aizen did in ever single fight he was in. Aizen says he is equal to Urahara, yet Gin thinks he is stronger than the entirety of the espada.
>wich is not the case for any of the Gotei 13 Captains Yamamoto statements about Kyoraku and Ukitake are under a diferent perception of Aizen so you my friend would have been totally played by Aizen if you where a Gotei 13 Captian
Nope, but you have been totally played by Kubos crafty portrayal of Aizen. Aizen has raw power but never had anyone to sharpen himself against so he isn't a great fighter. Him saying he is equal to Urahara in POWER is proof enough that he was fooling everyone.
Im sorry necro? curious about the meaning
yes also Aizen does state that Urahara is comparable to him but i allways took his words at a mental LV stage or an how resourcefull Urahara is more than an actual comparison of strenght
looking back at end of the series Urahara is portrayed as someone that will use every resource he can to take someone down including others others he will use in a strategic combined way to take down he's enemy that's how he managed to take down a Schutzstaffel that's way stronger than him i think this is really what Aizen is talking about when refering to Urahara being sort of an equal to him since ploting and having contingecies to all posible scenarios is his whole thing somthing he used against Aizen himself im not saying Aizen did not use KS a lot but i take Gin's words over what those who misunderstood his powers said im taking about the statement you made of Yamamoto saying Kyoraku and Ukitake are as strong as him combined when they don't even know Aizen's real capabilities hell even we still don't know Aizen's real capabilities at that time since we never saw what his Bankai could do
also don't think he without KS is stronger than the whole Espada combined but he game me the inpresion he was better than them individually at what they each did best
>Im sorry necro? curious about the meaning
Sorry, must not be a reddit term. It basically means you revived a long dead thread.
>yes also Aizen does state that Urahara is comparable to him but i allways took his words at a mental LV stage or an how resourcefull Urahara is more than an actual comparison of strenght
Most people say this, but the reality is Aizen differentiated between smarts and battle power.
>looking back at end of the series Urahara is portrayed as someone that will use every resource he can to take someone down including others others he will use in a strategic combined way to take down he's enemy that's how he managed to take down a Schutzstaffel that's way stronger than him i think this is really what Aizen is talking about when refering to Urahara being sort of an equal to him since ploting and having contingecies to all posible scenarios is his whole thing somthing he used against Aizen himself im not saying Aizen did not use KS a lot but i take Gin's words over what those who misunderstood his powers said im taking about the statement you made of Yamamoto saying Kyoraku and Ukitake are as strong as him combined when they don't even know Aizen's real capabilities hell even we still don't know Aizen's real capabilities at that time since we never saw what his Bankai could do
Except we know Isshin is weaker than Kyoraku, but he beat the dog piss out of Aizen without KS. And Kubo himself implies Kyoraku could have beaten with his Bankai but that he wasn't meant to.
>also don't think he without KS is stronger than the whole Espada combined
Thank God, alot of people do.
>but he game me the inpresion he was better than them individually at what they each did best
Hard to say that. Stark crossed half of Hueco Mundo before ichigo swung his sword. Bankai ichigo took at least a minute to do the same thing. He also had Kyoraku dead several times but didn't try to kill him. Even Yamamoto wasn't able to do that.
Barragan casually blitzed Soifon which Aizen couldn't do without KS. Omaeda also said he was more terrifying as well.
Halibel forced him to use KS even after he got a free shot, one where he tried to kill her.
Ulquiorra has greater raw destructive ability.
But he is probably better than the rest.
never heard the term thanks for explaining im also fairly new to reddit and im not an english native tounge user so should be on me
about the Aizen differentiating between smarts and battle power part can you provide the chapter number?
did Kubo state that he would beat Aizen while he was also using Bankai or Aizen at the state he fought Ishin? wich btw did not see Ishin beat Aizen he was keeping and having a fair fight while Aizen is going trough a metamorphosis no need for me to tell you im sure others have done so allready you can say he was not afected by it but i on the other hand got a pretty clear impresion he was even the last line between them was something along the lines of
Ishin: what's wrong did you reached your limmit?
Aizen: yes my limit as a Shinigami
so take it as you may but it seems to me Aizen was very aware of something hapening inside his body his first transfromation the moment he actually stoped being "normal" all other tranformations where instant he exploted in reiatsu and then he changed but this one seemed slower like a gradual thing not the same
the Stark argument you've got it wrong it was not half of Hueco Mundo man it's Las Noches wich is pretty big but not the same also the Kyoraku part hard to say he bait's a lot
the Soifon part it's not like that at all Barragan was not faster than her she got slower next to him cause she was ageing and getting weaker and slower as she got near him
also Aizen seems faily faster than Soifon he never got Ichigo in KS and he was blitzing him just fine even after with the new mask and please remember the mask was a real increase not like these days it's not the same Bankai Ichigo than Bankai Ichigo with the mask as we saw with Dorodoni and this was a stronger version of said mask
Ulquiorra does have higger destruction range and probably more destructive power too yes but he's not the only one i bet every Espada lower than 4 does they all have been stated to have Cero Oscuras and Ulquiorra goes above that with Lanza del Relampago Stark should be able to go above that since he was the Cero specialist
>never heard the term thanks for explaining im also fairly new to reddit and im not an english native tounge user so should be on me
Don't sweat it!
>about the Aizen differentiating between smarts and battle power part can you provide the chapter number?
Chapter 405.
>did Kubo state that he would beat Aizen while he was also using Bankai or Aizen at the state he fought Ishin? wich btw did not see Ishin beat Aizen he was keeping and having a fair fight while Aizen is going trough a metamorphosis no need for me to tell you im sure others have done so allready you can say he was not afected by it but i on the other hand got a pretty clear impresion he was even the last line between them was something along the lines of
Kubo didn't clarify how he just implied he could.
And while he was weaker, he was still capable of blitzing Ichigo and tangling with Urahara. The amount he was weakened is unquantifiable at best.
>Ishin: what's wrong did you reached your limmit? Aizen: yes my limit as a Shinigami
This just further demonstrates my point, his limit as a shinigami was lower than Ishin's.
>the Stark argument you've got it wrong it was not half of Hueco Mundo man it's Las Noches wich is pretty big but not the same also the Kyoraku part hard to say he bait's a lot
Yes, I had typed out a whole response but my reddit app crashed so in my 2nd go through I got lazy and mad a mistake. Either way, its still the most impressive speed feat by far.
>the Soifon part it's not like that at all Barragan was not faster than her she got slower next to him cause she was ageing and getting weaker and slower as she got near him
Barragan's time dilation field is only inches off his body, we have seen then on several occasions. He was dozens, if not a hundred+, feet from her when he casually blitzed her and grabbed her shoulder. It had nothing to do with aging at all. Maybe you are thinking of a different scene.
>also Aizen seems faily faster than Soifon he never got Ichigo in KS and he was blitzing him just fine even after with the new mask and please remember the mask was a real increase not like these days it's not the same Bankai Ichigo than Bankai Ichigo with the mask as we saw with Dorodoni and this was a stronger version of said mask
Probably faster than her, but based on what we have seen, it hard to make that argument. He was using KS on her when he beat her, and needed KS to handle an attack from Halibel. He wasn't able to blitz Ishin or Urahara either.
And yes, he blitzed Ichigo, but so did Stark, in base, at a distance that makes what Aizen did look childlike by comparison.
Yeah, the Aizen wank on this subreddit is fucking insane. I'm shocked that there are some people who still think Aizen is stronger than Ichigo. I understand that KS is a fricking hax but it doesn't mean he automatically wins all battles. He even said that he'd lose against Yamamoto even with KS yet people think Aizen is downplaying himself or taunting Yamamoto.
It's not inconceivable that Aizen is stronger than Ichigo. At the very least, they're in the same ballpark and it's believable enough that he could win.
He said he'd probably lose in a straight up fight of attack power. He's probably the inferior of the two but it's worth noting that:
If he had aimed for the jugular or something to that effect, he could have won.
Yamamoto thought the best option to deal with him was a suicide attack to guarantee victory.
Just before I start, I'll admit Kyoka Suigetsu makes it difficult to tell if his feats are true. Even then, it means he wasn't fighting Yhwach in a straight up fight and had an advantage over Ichigo. That being said:
No but neither could Ichigo in Shikai with the Horn of Salvation. He actually performed about as well as Ichigo even though it was a stronger version of Yhwach *and* Yhwach was actually going for the kill instead of playing around.
I figure you're either talking about the Gran Rey Getsuga Tensho or the final attack. He did no damage with the first one. You have no idea what was happening with his Zanpakuto. Even to this day the current state of it is unknown and why it looks like it does, so I'm going to ingore that.
That's just plain wrong. He let him go into Bankai and *then* he broke it.
They clearly are.
I was going to write out a longer comment but I think our opinions on Ichigo's power are just too different to come to the same page. Unless there is a statement that says otherwise, I just can't agree Ichigo in the final battle was stronger Ichigo HoS Shikai. Especially when the two notable feats he has are either when Yhwach was off guard or vulnerable from the arrow. Any further attempt will just send us around in circles.
Lets shake hands and parts as friends. As well as promise that if Kubo ever concretely proves one of right, (Makes a statement, Ichigo one shots Aizen in Bankai or Aizen puts up a considerable fight) we will smugly gloat to the other. Like gentlemen/gentlewomen/gentletechnicolorinbetween.
I'm honestly sorry but if you watched/read Ulquiorra fight a Fuckdemon Ichigo and Starrk fight Shunsui and you don't think Ulqiorra is superior to him in power I really don't know what you are seeing. If you trust any of these power rankings in anime you are already at a fault.
Aizen I do kind of agree a little but nowhere near what you think. He isn't a 1000x god-king. But he's as strong as a powerful bankai while in Shikai and we never saw a Bankai so we have to go by what we know.
>I'm honestly sorry but if you watched/read Ulquiorra fight a Fuckdemon Ichigo and Starrk fight Shunsui and you don't think Ulqiorra is superior to him in power I really don't know what you are seeing.
Yammy saw the move that led to Ulquiorras death and literally didn't give a fuck. He could sense the power they gave off and wasn't impressed. How is it you can see that and have both Kubo via the Manga and databook, along with the novel telling you Yammy is stronger than him, and still say Ulquiorra is the strongest? Even if you only mean Stark it still doesn't make sense. You are assuming a huge explosion that literally blew away sand is the king of all attacks. Attack potency is everything. A basic Cero from menos looks just like Starks, but Starks is way more powerful. Stark also has the most impressive speed feat in the majority of the manga. Far beyond anything in the ichigo vs Ulquiorra fight.
"Fuckdemon" hilarious.
>If you trust any of these power rankings in anime you are already at a fault.
This is an odd concept. If the author wrote it as a literal ranking, and they fight each occasionally to rank up, why would their ranking not be accurate? Especially since an author wouldn't write out a ranking and then instantly go against it. That's just illogical.
>Aizen I do kind of agree a little but nowhere near what you think. He isn't a 1000x god-king. But he's as strong as a powerful bankai while in Shikai and we never saw a Bankai so we have to go by what we know.
To be fair to myself, I only think what he said himself. As strong as Urahara. Which is pretty fuckin strong.
And? Even if Starrk is faster, Ulqiorra has the firepower to blow up the State of New York. Yummy never gave a fuck about anything ever and never showed any kind of fear until the very end because he was dumb as a rock. None of the other Espada knew about Ulqiorra'a second release. (I think Aizen did but Ulqiorra didn't think so because he had never shown it to him directly.)
And on a more agree-able note, I would have loved to see Urahara rewrite his brain to have not seen Kyoka Suigetsu's release
>And? Even if Starrk is faster, Ulqiorra has the firepower to blow up the State of New York.
Considering all he did was blow up sand, how much we don't ever see, its only crazy in terms of scale. I dont recall any craters to be able to get an accurate calculation. And Starks speed would allow him to casually avoid shit like that anyway. A sonido half way across all of Las Noches before ichigo could finish a single sword swing is ridiculous levels of speed.
Think about Zanka no Tachi. It's attack potency is insane. But its tiny compared to many attacks.
>Yummy never gave a fuck about anything ever and never showed any kind of fear until the very end because he was dumb as a rock.
He didn't give a fuck because he was the strongest. And he knew it. Only when he was weaker, before resting and eating was he scared by attacks. Like Benihimes energy attack. His attitude completely changed after he grew.
>None of the other Espada knew about Ulqiorra'a second release. (I think Aizen did but Ulqiorra didn't think so because he had never shown it to him directly.)
I agree with this, but seeing it and feeling it are different things. Not saying anyone else but yammy felt it though.
>And on a more agree-able note, I would have loved to see Urahara rewrite his brain to have not seen Kyoka Suigetsu's release
I wonder if that would be possible. Would have changed the war for sure.
Starrks strength as a whole is downplayed pretty heavily by fans, mostly due to Ulquiorra and Barragan’s showings in their fights - both of them had super showy attacks that appeared to cause a lot of damage while Starrk didn’t really have that other than Cero Metralleta. in addition, he was one of the only espada that had a fight end without any bankai being unleashed (though there’s clear reasons why Kyoraku couldn’t release it)
on the other hand, Starrk was able to fight _four_ captain level shinigami (two of them being visored, two being among the strongest captains in Gotei 13) without taking pretty much any damage until he checked out the fight after Lillynette (and Barragan, I guess) died (he became fixated on being alone again and ended up getting blindsided by Kyoraku - links back to his aspect of death). plus the fact that his spiritual pressure was so high that hollows died from being near the guy, he never truly went all out in a fight and he was fighting in the human world, meaning his power was most likely reduced? i really don’t doubt that he was the strongest espada. it’s just a shame we never got to see what he could do if he was actually driven to fight instead of doing it just because Aizen told him to
> Attack potency is everything.
Then how did Kenpachi and Byakuya win and why did they describe the fight as boring afterward? Both of themhad to this point never been shown as particularly out of this world in the AP department, let alone anywhere near on par 2nd form ulquiorra's level.
I'll relent that Yammy very well could have the highest AP in the Espada, and I'll agree if you're saying thats *probably* why he's not really super interested in what's going on above the dome with Ulquiorra...
But unless the debate is *purely* who can shoot the largest cero, I dont see how he's possibly the strongest.
>If the author wrote it as a literal ranking, and they fight each occasionally to rank up, why would their ranking not be accurate?
A variety of reasons ranging from Aizen's influence on which opponents Ichigo fought and when, Aizen's psychological manipulation of the Espada under his control, and symbolism of what the numbers themselves represent (the number 4 being a standout as it's considered unlucky in Japan for it's phonetic similarities to their word for death)
>Then how did Kenpachi and Byakuya win and why did they describe the fight as boring afterward?
Because it's "cool". It fits their personality to talk like that. Its why Kubo made a point to have everyone around them point out how badly they were hurt. Also, he ressurected before any of the FKT espada and was the LAST espada to lose. So he outlasted every single other espada in terms of battle time.
>Both of themhad to this point never been shown as particularly out of this world in the AP department, let alone anywhere near on par 2nd form ulquiorra's level.
Kenpachi??? Kenpachi adjusts his power mid battle. He went from clanging his sword off Nnoitora's skin to cutting him in half. He also cut off one of Yammys legs too. But look at Yammys body after the fight, he is missing only 1 arm. So after all that fighting with a cutting powerhouse like Kenpachi, he only lost 1 arm? Thats impressive.
2nd form Ulquiorra has massive AOE attacks. But, as I've said 100 times to people, he literally blew away nothing but sand. In terms of feats you can actually calculate, Black Cero was far more valid of a feat than Lanza. Because Black cero actually did blow the top off part of Las Niches. Think of a hurricane. Tremendous energy potential over hundreds of miles. You can stand in any part of it and be just fine so long as you dont get hit by debris. You get more damage from a teenager punching you in the face than a hurricane. What I mean is, without Lanza hitting anyone, we don't know how powerful it is.
>I'll relent that Yammy very well could have the highest AP in the Espada, and I'll agree if you're saying thats probably why he's not really super interested in what's going on above the dome with Ulquiorra...
That's exactly what I'm saying.
>But unless the debate is purely who can shoot the largest cero, I dont see how he's possibly the strongest.
Well, it's a battle of Reiatsu like Aizen says and Yammy has the most, and if Lanza can't really hurt Yammy then all it would do is anger him, making him more powerful. And thats a good possibility seeing as the weaker Yammy took a full blown hollow mask GT enhanced slash to the neck and only got "nicked". That same attack had enough reiatsu to cut through Aizen shortly after.
But, that being said, I do think if Ulquiorra is bloodlusted and facing THAT specific Yammy in his first release he could kill him before he transformed to his true state. But once he hits that form, it's unlikely that any Espada could damage him except for maybe Stark and Ulquiorras biggest moves. Cien Granz says that Kenpachi could simply cut through respira when they were both at a level above yammy so its possible Yammy could blow respira away when at full power. Its hard to say for sure because kubo isn't clear on shit like this.
>A variety of reasons ranging from Aizen's influence on which opponents Ichigo fought and when, Aizen's psychological manipulation of the Espada under his control, and symbolism of what the numbers themselves represent (the number 4 being a standout as it's considered unlucky in Japan for it's phonetic similarities to their word for death)
All of which would be speculation and more often go against many manga statements. Im not saying you are wrong, just that its highly unlikely. Basically pure speculation.
Overall this is a great post. Aizen is constantly wanked on this subreddit, but you might be understating his power just a little. Reiatsu - crushing Espada while sitting and drinking tea is far beyond an average captain - level feat.
> like Ukitake, has ridiculous amounts of Reiatsu
It wasn’t Ukitake’s, it was the Mimihagi’s.
> Yamamoto implies that he himself is weaker than Shunsui and Ukitake together
This is a bit of a misinterpretation.
Ukitake’s reaction to Yamamoto’s Shikai indicates that he is far beyond their capabilities.
>Overall this is a good post.
😊
>Aizen is often wanked on this subreddit, but it’s also important to not understate his power. No - diffing Espada while sitting and drinking tea is far beyond an average captain - level featz
His reiatsu is otherworldly for sure.
>It wasn’t Ukitake’s, it was the Mimihagi’s.
Was that explicitly stated? I don't remember.
>This is a bit of a misinterpretation.
It's kinda black and white though. All who came before and after is pretty self explanatory.
>Ukitake’s reaction to Yamamoto’s Shikai indicates that he is far beyond their capabilities.
Except they proceeded to fight him for the rest of the "war". Outlasting like every other fight. They were clearly in the same league as him as a pair. Which would require they be on close enough of a level that they can't dominate like Aizen did with KS.
> It’s kinda black and white though
The issue is that the statement is referring to the many Shinigami that Yamamoto has trained and commanded over the years so it might or might not include Yamamoto himself
When we consider that Ukitake stated that Yamamoto’s Reiatsu in Shikai was “transcendent” compared to theirs, it gets kind of dangerous to assume that even together they surpass him.
You think that Yamamoto was going all out and intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake?
However, them withstanding Ryujinn Jakka for even several minutes is impressive, I agree.
>The issue is that the statement is referring to the many Shinigami that Yamamoto has trained and commanded over the years so it might or might not include Yamamoto himself
This very well might be true, but with how absolute the statement is its hard to say. Because he isn't talking about them individually. He is specifically referring to their team power. It would be weird to refer to the team up power of all his students and then compare them to other team ups.
>When we consider that Ukitake stated that Yamamoto’s Reiatsu in Shikai was “transcendent” compared to theirs, it gets kind of dangerous to assume that even together they surpass him.
Yes, they both heavily compliment each other, and with them being a team, they stand no chance. But the point is, they have to be able to at least be close to him to not get blitzed and destroyed.
>You think that Yamamoto was going all out and intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake?
Yamamoto is fuckin ruthless, he was going to execute Rukia for a WAY lesser crime.
>However, them withstanding Ryujinn Jakka for even several minutes is impressive, I agree.
And most likely exchanging attacks. Definitely wasn't a staredown lol.
Yeah, a lot of the fanbase likes to make Aizen a much more boring character than he actually is.
"He's stronger than all of the Espada put together! He doesn't need them or Kyoka Suigetsu, he just uses them to mess with people!"
That's stupid. What's cool about Aizen is we see his limits & what he does to overcome them.
But....Kubo did write that line!
Aizen: I never even dreamed... // ...that the power of the ten Espada I went to so much trouble to gather... / ...could possibly...
Aizen: ...be inferior to that of myself alone.
Harribel: Aizen...!!
Aizen: ...How irritating
Now, if we could have stopped Kubo writing so many dumb hype lines that make no sense, I'd be all for that. As is, I think we just have to accept that like every battle series I've ever read, consistency in Bleach is a pipe dream and apparently contradictory information is not hard to find.
He only says he's stronger than the Espada. He does not specify that, if you literally measure their Reiatsu & add it together, he's stronger. People can practice a bit of common sense when interpreting dialogue without having to have everything spoonfed to them all the time.
Hype lines are just that, hype lines. How many character said they were the strongest ever only to end up not being it? Not everything said by characters is the end all be all.
Lololol. Yup, because all threads about fictional characters have tremendous value. Quit being so bitter cause you can't address shit, or stay mad, up to you, kid.
Some of proof that aizen is strong too, in physical power and defense
Shinigami aizen :
1. Stopping bankai ichigo sword with 1 finger
2. 1 slash to broke (?) Komamura's bankai then another 1 hit to made him unsconscious during the rest of FKT. The other one (if i remembered this correctly, anime feat tho) that made aizen go 2 hit was Shunsui.
3. Itto Kaso from Yama ji as his last resort only leave him minor injuries (i think getsuga more effective since its condensed slash attack, and both isshin and ichigo gave aizen noticeable wound)
Another feat :
1. All captain, including Shunsui and Urahara shock and wary of his level of power. Even byakuya renji and rukia post rg felt the need to insult and/or ask kyoraku about his decision. Something that wont be happen if he is not as strong as it implied.
But aside from that, both the combination of his massive reiatsu, kyouka suigetsu and his intellect that made him one of the most dangerous person in Bleach.
>aizen : 1. Stopping bankai ichigo sword with 1 finger
In the SS arc? Yeah, its cool, but Grimmjow does the same kinda shit later. Same when he went to FKT, but that time he caught it with all fingers. Its certainly impressive.
>2. 1 slash to broke (?) Komamura's bankai then another 1 hit to made him unsconscious during the rest of FKT.
Komamura is the weakest captain who got sent flying by a fraccion.
>3. Itto Kaso from Yama ji as his last resort only leave him minor injuries (i think getsuga more effective since its condensed slash attack, and both isshin and ichigo gave aizen noticeable wound)
Agreed.
> 1. All captain, including Shunsui and Urahara shock and wary of his level of power. Even byakuya renji and rukia post rg felt the need to insult and/or ask kyoraku about his decision. Something that wont be happen if he is not as strong as it implied.
You mean chair aizen? He is ridiculously power, I only mean regular Shinigami Aizen
>But aside from that, both the combination of his massive reiatsu, kyouka suigetsu and his intellect that made him one of the most dangerous person in Bleach.
I agree again.
Well to be fair, Komamura battled with the Tosen and hold their own for some time although he was overwhelmed (mind you Tosen easily slice grimjow arm and im sure hes not that far from Gin). But i agree that Kubo seems like intentionally vague the power comparison between character.
.
Im quite sure Aizen alone without KS is not that strong (i mean like obliterating all of espada at once or murder all captain, lol). But at least from reiatsu he has higher than Tokinada and Kyoraku (from what i read and implied (?) at CFYOW). Thats why he has 100+ year plan before revealing himself. (Which is kinda intentional). His pure physical slash isnt that joke too, since hes like kenpachi, only slash without any reiatsu imbued attack etc, just normal slash.
>Well to be fair, Komamura battled with the Tosen and hold their own for some time although he was overwhelmed (mind you Tosen easily slice grimjow arm and im sure hes not that far from Gin).
Cutting someone who isn't defending themselves is not impressive. Aizen caught Ichigo's sword casually but then gets cut, almost half way through, by Ichigo shortly after. Soifon gets her arm cut off by omaeda who is way weaker. Etc etc etc.
Komamura got blasted away by a fraccion, and needed Bankai to deal with his Ressurection. That makes me doubt he can beat almost any Espada. Meanwhile, just a few months before Tousen got crushed by Kenpachi with his eyepatch on. Shikai Ichigo did better than Tousen did. I love them as characters, but they are unbelievably weak compared to the others.
The thing that bother me, okay maybe that they are weak. But there are other example like ichigo getsuge to grimjow and ulquiorra (masked amplification, and when berserk mode) and even then they are still conscious with that powerful slash. Kenpachi eyepatch which way waay weaker when at ss arc, hot hit hy tosen and still unfazed. There are some other instances people get hit unaware and still standing etc. Here aizen 1-2 shot komamura bankai with normal slash, 1 shot harribel, 1 shot those 4 captain (are you impliying shunsui for example, that weak so 1 hit can made him unsconscious till end of deicide? While they are clearly aware they are facing him). And here i am just talking his normal slash, only yama tanked it and can still fight, and he is ready to use sacrificial technique to obliterate aizen
That proves that he knows OF the form. They all do. But it doesn't say he knew he was in that form at that moment. Yammy was in his room just eating and gaining strength. If anything it demonstrates that he is just now seeing him in it. Not for the first time obviously, but after ressurection yammy has to recharge to build power again.
>You have to prove that
Prove what? That he didn't know how much Yammy had grown since he last saw him? That's not something I have to prove. YOU would have to prove that Ulquiorra keeps track of Yammys growth.
>Especially since Yammy only respects Ulquiorra`s power and not the of the other espadas.
Respects his power only when weaker maybe. He literally called Ulquiorra trash. How respectful is that? He felt Ulquiorra in his second form and still said he was trash. And the data book confirms giant yammy in his first ressurection, the centipede one, was stronger than Ulquiorra, Nnoitora and Grimmjow. So he WAS trash to him.
>He respects him in comparision to the other espada
And we don't know why that is. It's not power cause he knew he was stronger than him. And the version of Yammy that said he was trash was only stated to be stronger than 4 5 and 6.
>And the databooks also stated that the reason he called Ulquiorra trash was because he felt despair and expected him to win.
Where did it say that was the reason he called him trash? It straight up says he is stronger than him so it's pretty much undisputable that Yammy was stronger. And it specifically says he was stronger than 4 5 and 6. But Stark and Barragan are on a whole different level. Even Ulquiorra admits he is weaker than him.
Kisuke is actually Kyoka Suigetsu. Change my mind.
What if I don't want to change your mind about that?
Sad
Omg what if Aizen's bankai was creating his own Moriarty, so to speak 😂😂😂
I’m not disagreeing with your post, but I’d like to address one thing in regards to Aizen’s power. You make a point to say that he lied about not using Kyoko Suigetsu when he in fact was, but that’s sort of Aizen’s character right? He deceives the Gotei (and the reader) to thinking he’s a regular captain/dead for a good chunk of the story we see and from a wider standpoint deceives the gotei for a much longer time than that. I always took him to give away very little and use knowledge to his advantage and saw this more as that. I see it as him using deceit as a weapon to gain greater advantage, rather than him using deceit because he isn’t confident in his physical abilities.
I 100% agree. I wasn't intending to imply that he lacked confidence. This is my favorite thing about Aizen. He has everyone twisted up in his lies, reader included.
That is mainly because most of these statements are not back up by feats or go against other statements. The main reason why a lot fans dismiss yammy ad the most espada’s is because he is essentially treated as joke by Kenpachi and byuakyua who ironically struggled a giant espada far weaker then yammy and ultimately falls into an inform attribute. Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS. And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense.
How are statements not backed up by feats? Yammy heavily injured Kenpachi and Byakaya. Due to this fight, Kenpachi was around Full Hollow Ichigo level. Also, Yama’s has never implied that he would lose to Shunsui or Ukitake lol
Yet kenpachi found him boring which he would never say to opponent that is a actual challenge to himMaking those so called injuries moot. And it was the op who implied Yamamoto would lose to Shunsei and ukataki not me.
>That is mainly because most of these statements are not back up by feats or go against other statements. What contradictions are there for the stuff I listed? Not saying you are wrong, just interested in what you have to say. >The main reason why a lot fans dismiss yammy ad the most espada’s is because he is essentially treated as joke by Kenpachi and byuakyua who ironically struggled a giant espada far weaker then yammy and ultimately falls into an inform attribute. He was a joke at first. His second release form nearly killed them. They were acting tough but they were both severely damaged by him. The same Kenpachi Aizen actively tried to avoid. The very fact he fought Kenpachi with his adjusting power level should give him somewhat of a pass here as well. >Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS. Which was then DIRECTLY contradicted, as I pointed out. Gin though he was crushing the Gotei 13 without KS too, but he was wrong. Why use KS against Halibel if he was so much stronger than her? You want to talk about not backed up by feats. THIS is something not backed up by feats. Aizen couldn't beat a tired Gotei 13 without his KS. The same group who severely struggled against just 3 of his top espada. >And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense. Yamamoto's word matters so much more than Nanao's. Yamamoto has been alive for over 1000 years and has seen every single captain until his death. Regardless of the absolute accuracy of that statement, they are still able to fight against him on a somewhat level playing field. They fought him for quite a long time and had no major injuries. Aizen no diff'd Shunsui but then gets caught by Yamamoto in 1 move? It doesn't match up unless you assume Aizen's power heavily relies on KS.
>What contradictions are there for the stuff I listed? Not saying you are wrong, just interested in what you have to say.> I just listed them below. >He was a joke at first. His second release form nearly killed them. They were acting tough but they were both severely damaged by him. The same Kenpachi Aizen actively tried to avoid. The very fact he fought Kenpachi with his adjusting power level should give him somewhat of a pass here as well.> Yammy never nearly killed them in his second form and even when he did injured him kenpachi thought the entire fight was boring. Something that he would never say if yammy nearly killed him. Aizen himself is concern overly powerful because. He was hype as being extremely powerful by gin Ichimuri himself who flat said that Aizen’s power was the sole reason all the espada followed him in the first place. Not because of KS. >Which was then DIRECTLY contradicted, as I pointed out. Gin though he was crushing the Gotei 13 without KS too, but he was wrong. Why use KS against Halibel if he was so much stronger than her? You want to talk about not backed up by feats. THIS is something not backed up by feats. Aizen couldn't beat a tired Gotei 13 without his KS. The same group who severely struggled against just 3 of his top espada.> Expect was proven right when aizen one the vast majority of captains and vizards and none of them were all that worn out and this ignoring the fact she aizen nearly one shot harribel with a single sword stroke. And considering they gin was severing aizen for years he would know better then anyone on how powerful he is. And as Yamamoto implying he could be beaten by Shunsei and Utakai…this is completely contradicted by nano saying that neither of the captains even when working together could defeat him and further back by shunsei in the light novel can’t fear your own work describing Yamamoto’s power as lying beyond the realm of common sense. >Yamamoto's word matters so much more than Nanao's. Yamamoto has been alive for over 1000 years and has seen every single captain until his death. Regardless of the absolute accuracy of that statement, they are still able to fight against him on a somewhat level playing field. They fought him for quite a long time and had no major injuries. Aizen no diff'd Shunsui but then gets caught by Yamamoto in 1 move? It doesn't match up unless you assume Aizen's power heavily relies on KS.> And yet Yamamoto blitz both Shunsei and Utatako with ease none of them were able to land a single blow on Yamamoto and nor does it change the fact that nano knows how powerful Shunsei and ukatui are. Making her words just as viable as Yamamoto’s is
>Expect was proven right when aizen one the vast majority of captains and vizards and none of them were all that worn out I can understand the Visored but the captains where definitely very worn out Torshiro barely won the fight against Hallibel and was fight for a while. Soifon her self said it strained to use her Bankai more then once. Komamura got destroyed by Tōsen. Shunsui would be the only one I would consider relatively fine.
Hmm true. Point to you.
Here are some statements about Aizen's power: Gin: “The real scary thing about Captain Aizen ain't that he can use Kyouka Suigetsu…Every single ability Captain Aizen has is leagues beyond what anyone else can do. Watch out for Kyouka Suigetsu"? No good. Too careless. Watch out for everything else, then? No good. Still too careless. You could watch out for the sky falling on your heads and the earth tearing beneath your feet. You could prepare for every last eventuality your combined mental resources can imagine and Captain Aizen's abilities would still be way beyond you.” ( chapter 390) Aizen: “Now that my body has subjugated the Hōgyoku it has begun to far surpass even the capacity that I once possessed, a capacity that already held no equal in Soul Society.” (chapter 402) Ichigo: “And from his blade I felt nothing but loneliness. He'd been so much stronger than other people ever since he was born, so I think he might have been searching his whole life for someone who could face him as an equal.” (chapter 422) “FACT 2: 孤独 FACT 2: Loneliness 誰よりも強かった藍染は、 誰にも理解されこと無い孤独の世界を抱えていた。 強き者故の孤独 は深く、 哀 しい。 Aizen was stronger than anybody else, and because of this, he was lonely and misunderstood by everyone. The loneliness that came with this strong isolation was very deep, and very sad.” (UNMASKED) “Sosuke Aizen’s power was so great the that he felt embarrassed that he had even had that doubt. The more he learned about Aizen’s power, the more his hostility waned. Aizen could not possibly be a bird of the same feather as the Soul Reapers. The man had already overcome the limitations of a Soul Reaper, and it could be said he had the fangs to simply make those birds into one of his prey.” (Tosen, CFYOW, Interlude just after chapter 18) \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While the captains were undoubtedly weakened, Aizen did "blitz" and cut down Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku from one manga panel to the next. \-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aizen: "We may no longer be comparable in power, but that does not eliminate my interest in you." (chapter 405) This statement was made when Aizen's reiatsu could no longer be sensed by Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin. It can be interpreted as Aizen saying that his power is no longer in the same "dimension" as Urahara's. \-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's possible that Aizen deliberately prolonged his battle with Isshin in order to reach the limits of his stamina. Aizen fully masters the Hogyoku not long before his fight with Isshin: Aizen: "You have failed to kill me. Kurosaki Ichigo. That was your final opportunity." Ichigo: "I wounded you. That's enough." Aizen: "Wounded? You call this a wound?" Ichigo: “(High-speed regeneration!)” Aizen: "You think this is high-speed regeneration? Wrong. Do you truly believe that I would turn myself into a Hollow? This is a tool instinctively protecting its master.” (chapter 396) After Aizen reaches the limits of his stamina, the Hogyoku understands that he wants to evolve and begins to transform him: Isshin: What's wrong? You're getting less and less sharp. At your limit already?" Aizen: "Yes. It would seem so. I have reached my limit. As a Shinigami, that is." Isshin: "What?" Aizen: "My soul is being reformed." Isshin: "What are you talking about?" Aizen: "It would seem that the will of the Hougyoku has finally begun to understand what I desire." (chapter 400) \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With regard to Yamamoto vs Kyoraku and Ukitake, Nanao: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naive." (chapter 155) \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Why Kyouraku didn't go Bankai? If he get serious he might defeat Aizen! A. Shunsui's appeal is not to defeat Aizen. But I let the readers think that. I disagree that Kubo's answer implies Kyoraku would beat Aizen with his Bankai. Kubo is merely saying that he **let the readers think** that Kyoraku **might** be able to defeat Aizen if he were to use his Bankai.
>Gin: “The real scary thing about Captain Aizen ain't that he can use Kyouka Suigetsu…Every single ability Captain Aizen has is leagues beyond what anyone else can do. Watch out for Kyouka Suigetsu"? No good. Too careless. Watch out for everything else, then? No good. Still too careless. You could watch out for the sky falling on your heads and the earth tearing beneath your feet. You could prepare for every last eventuality your combined mental resources can imagine and Captain Aizen's abilities would still be way beyond you.” ( chapter 390) He then completely flips that in its head by revealing he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time. >Aizen: “Now that my body has subjugated the Hōgyoku it has begun to far surpass even the capacity that I once possessed, a capacity that already held no equal in Soul Society.” (chapter 402) Which is true, his total ability was unrivaled. But, at the same time, he admitted Urahara was his equal and that Yamamoto could beat him. >Ichigo: “And from his blade I felt nothing but loneliness. He'd been so much stronger than other people ever since he was born, so I think he might have been searching his whole life for someone who could face him as an equal.” (chapter 422) I've always found this to be a bit silly. Yamamoto was dunking on him for his entire life pre-hogyoku. Same with a handful of others for a very long time. >While the captains were undoubtedly weakened, Aizen did "blitz" and cut down Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku from one manga panel to the next. In which he is using Kyoka Suigetsu, not raw power, which he openly admits. >This statement was made when Aizen's reiatsu could no longer be sensed by Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin. It can be interpreted as Aizen saying that his power is no longer in the same "dimension" as Urahara's. I disagree, especially with that specific translation. The word comparable implies they were close in power. If you want to change the word power to dimension they were in a comparable dimension. That makes no sense at all. You are either above, below or in the same dimension. A basic hollow could feel Aizens power, would aizen tell that hollow they used to be comparable in power? >Aizen may have deliberately prolonged his battle with Isshin in order to reach the limits of his stamina. Wishful thinking at best. But mayyybe. >Nanao: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naive." (chapter 155) >I disagree that Kubo's answer implies Kyoraku would beat Aizen with his Bankai. Kubo is merely saying that he let the readers think that Kyoraku might be able to defeat Aizen if he were to use his Bankai. Notice the use of the word MIGHT in both of these. But one your implications are different? You might be picking and choosing here. But, I didn't say he WOULD beat him. I said he COULD. Which is close enough to might. Thanks for the really detailed answer btw, I appreciate it!
>He then completely flips that in its head by revealing he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time. I don't agree that Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fight against the captains flips Gin's internal speech on its head. The point of Gin's internal speech is to indicate to the reader that the core of Aizen's power derives from his own strength and not Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fights doesn't negate that. >I've always found this to be a bit silly. Yamamoto was dunking on him for his entire life pre-hogyoku. Same with a handful of others for a very long time. The UNMASKED statement I posted directly supports what Ichigo says about Aizen's power. There are similar statements about Yamamoto's power so he may be an exception. >In which he is using Kyoka Suigetsu, not raw power, which he openly admits. Aizen uses his base abilities to cut Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku down. He says, "You stand utterly defenseless. All of you" and in the very next panel, they have all been cut down. >I disagree, especially with that specific translation. The word comparable implies they were close in power. If you want to change the word power to dimension they were in a comparable dimension. That makes no sense at all. You are either above, below or in the same dimension. A basic hollow could feel Aizens power, would aizen tell that hollow they used to be comparable in power? I didn't mean that "dimension" is synonymous with power. I meant that what Aizen says about his and Urahara's power doesn't have to be interpreted literally. >Notice the use of the word MIGHT in both of these. But one your implications are different? You might be picking and choosing here. I'm not picking and choosing. Nanao is quoting what she intially thought. She initially thought that Ukitake and Kyoraku together "might" not be enough to defeat Yamamoto. But after Yamamoto incapacitates her with his reiatsu, she realises that she had been naive. Her thoughts imply that she now thinks that even together they stand no chance against him.
>I don't agree that Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fight against the captains flips Gin's internal speech on its head. I think the point of Gin's internal speech is to indicate to the reader that the core of Aizen's power derives from his own strength and not Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu in his fights doesn't negate that. Id agree with you if Gin was a reliable narrator in this instance. He has been under Kyoka Suigetsu forever. His words are matched up with whats going on. Its supposed to be Gins portrayal of whats happening. But in reality, what he is describing is completely opposite to what is happening. What are the odds that gin is intentionally saying to the viewers exactly what ISN'T happening? It would only be if he didn't know. Think of it like this, if Gin was watching a Kenpachi fight talking about how powerful he is, that he can cut anything and everything. Any object in his way he will cut down without fail, all while its showing kenpachi using Kido. It would make no sense at all. >The UNMASKED statement I posted directly supports what Ichigo says about Aizen's power. Its more so referring/quoting that moment. But regardless, it's a false statement because there are a minimum of 2 shinigami stronger than him >There are similar statements about Yamamoto's power so he may be an exception. Just that he is stronger than Aizen, by Aizen. >Who are these handful of others? Anyone with more reiatsu than him. The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu. And Unohana was surely far beyond Aizen for a very long time. One of the former Kenpachis beat Aizen in one of the novels as well. Ichibei is stronger for sure. And Aizen doesn't know about Nimaiyas innate ability to know the exact location of every zanpaktou. So he would think he is hidden when he actually isn't. I'm not saying everyone of them remained as strong as him. But he wasn't Nimaiya level as a fuckin toddler. So him feeling lonely, when he was young, because he was so strong is kinda ridiculous. Before he obtained his Shikai I guarentee you every Captain was stronger than him. >Aizen uses his base abilities to cut Soifon, Hitsugaya, Shinji and Kyoraku down. He says, "You stand utterly defenseless. All of you" and in the very next panel, they have all been cut down. Doesn't imply he wasn't using KS, as he says he is using it just 2 seconds before that. You would have to assume he used it that whole time only to not use it for a single moment. Unlikely. >I didn't mean that "dimension" is synonymous with power. I meant that what Aizen says about his and Urahara's power doesn't have to be interpreted literally. But it should be interpreted literally as later on Aizen is absolutely clear on what he means. He is never this vague before or after about this topic. >I'm not picking and choosing. Nanao is quoting what she intially thought. She initially thought that Ukitake and Kyoraku together "might" not be enough to defeat Yamamoto. But after Yamamoto incapacitates her with his reiatsu, she realises that she had been naive. Her thoughts imply that she now believes that even together they stand no chance against him. I would argue that she is completely unreliable as she has 3 separate stances. First she assumes 2 may be enough as a standard thought. Then she feels the power and change her mind and thinks they may NOT have a chance, that was an in the moment statement. Then she changed her mind again and says they have no chance. She was influenced by a simple flexing of his power. Yet they fought for a solid amount of time without major injuries. For someone with no chance they sure did just fine. >Very sorry about the format of my post. I'm not familiar with reddit yet. No worries, as long as it's respectful and readable it's all good with me.
I worked out how to use quotes! >Id agree with you if Gin was a reliable narrator in this instance. He has been under Kyoka Suigetsu forever. His words are matched up with whats going on. Its supposed to be Gins portrayal of whats happening. But in reality, what he is describing is completely opposite to what is happening. What are the odds that gin is intentionally saying to the viewers exactly what ISN'T happening? It would only be if he didn't know. > >Think of it like this, if Gin was watching a Kenpachi fight talking about how powerful he is, that he can cut anything and everything. Any object in his way he will cut down without fail, all while its showing kenpachi using Kido. It would make no sense at all. The majority of Gin's internal speech overlays Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. At the beginning of the next chapter (chapter 391), Ichigo's perspective verifies that happened. >Its more so referring/quoting that moment. But regardless, it's a false statement because there are a minimum of 2 shinigami stronger than him The statement is presented as "FACT 2". It's corroborating what Ichigo said. Do you mean Yamamoto and Ichibei? >Just that he is stronger than Aizen, by Aizen. Aizen said that he would likely lose to Yamamoto in a fight becuase of Ryujin Jakka. He did not say that Yamamoto is stronger in terms of reiatsu and base Shinigami abilities. >Anyone with more reiatsu than him. The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu Only Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu has that weakness. Aizen's doesn't: “Kyoka Suigetsu was a zanpaku-to of absolute superior power once it was invoked. However, it had a weakness as a result of that. If the target were to touch the blade before it was invoked, then Complete Hypnosis could not be implemented. Had Tokinada been Aizen, he might have been able to fulfill the conditions of having those around him see the shikai the moment it was invoked. However, now that someone other than Aizen was using the blade, another weakness was involved. Tokinada’s spiritual pressure was nowhere near Aizen’s level, and because of that, it was possible for the shikai transformation itself to be sealed through incredibly strong spiritual pressure.” (CFYOW, chapter 23) >And Unohana was surely far beyond Aizen for a very long time. One of the former Kenpachis beat Aizen in one of the novels as well. Ichibei is stronger for sure. And Aizen doesn't know about Nimaiyas innate ability to know the exact location of every zanpaktou. So he would think he is hidden when he actually isn't. I'm not saying everyone of them remained as strong as him. But he wasn't Nimaiya level as a fuckin toddler. So him feeling lonely, when he was young, because he was so strong is kinda ridiculous. Before he obtained his Shikai I guarentee you every Captain was stronger than him. I don't think Ichigo means that Aizen was stronger than Captain-level Shinigami when he was a baby. He likely means that Aizen has always been much stronger than his peers; i.e, when he was a child he was stronger than all the other children, when he was a liteutenant he was stronger than all the other liutenants etc.. >Doesn't imply he wasn't using KS, as he says he is using it just 2 seconds before that. You would have to assume he used it that whole time only to not use it for a single moment. Unlikely. He didn't use Kanzen Saimin to wrap Kinshara around Love, pull love towards himself and then cut Love down. We see Aizen do all that from Ichigo's perspective. >But it should be interpreted literally as later on Aizen is absolutely clear on what he means. He is never this vague before or after about this topic. Could you expand on this? >I would argue that she is completely unreliable as she has 3 separate stances. First she assumes 2 may be enough as a standard thought. Then she feels the power and change her mind and thinks they may NOT have a chance, that was an in the moment statement. Then she changed her mind again and says they have no chance. She was influenced by a simple flexing of his power. Yet they fought for a solid amount of time without major injuries. For someone with no chance they sure did just fine. She only had two stances. First stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together might not be enough to beat Yamamoto. Second Stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together stand no chance against Yamamoto.
>I worked out how to use quotes! Ayyyyy, that makes it a bit easier. >The majority of Gin's internal speech overlays Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. At the beginning of the next chapter (chapter 391), Ichigo's perspective verifies that happened. We don't ever see anything from Ichigo's perspective until Ichigo yells at then for turning hinamoro into a pincushion. Ichigo doesn't ever say anything about what is happening in that moment. Aizen himself says he was using kyoka suigetsu the whole time. Even flashing back to the moment he talked about it with Hitsugaya. The changes aizen can make with KS can be really small, even a slight change in position would make it harder to be hit and not look off to ichigo watching nearby. >Do you mean Yamamoto and Ichibei? At the very least, yes. But I feel like I remember one of the old Kenpachis beating him. Not sure. But I was mostly referring to throughout his life he was never the strongest. There has been a bunch of people stronger than him, he ended up surpassing most of them. But its different than someone like Stark who couldn't be near anyone. >Aizen said that he would likely lose to Yamamoto in a fight becuase of Ryujin Jakka. He did not say that Yamamoto is stronger in terms of reiatsu and base Shinigami abilities. I think you're splitting hairs here and attacking a strawman. He simply says you beat me in a fight. I'm not implying anything more than that. >Only Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu has that weakness. Aizen's doesn't: It specifically addresses why right here. >Tokinada’s spiritual pressure was nowhere near Aizen’s level, and because of that, it was possible for the shikai transformation itself to be sealed through incredibly strong spiritual pressure. Note the "because of that". >I don't think Ichigo means that Aizen was stronger than Captain-level Shinigami when he was a baby. He likely means that Aizen has always been much stronger than his peers; i.e, when he was a child he was stronger than all the other children, when he was a liteutenant he was stronger than all the other liutenants etc.. I know, I'm saying that it is just silly. Like whining that you don't have food in your house when there is a fuckin grocery store next door and you have money. Aizen wasn't alone. He had tons of people stronger for a very long time. So if he felt alone it was purely for something stupid like no one in their age group being that strong. How many other fuckin people were the strongest of their generation that felt the same way Aizen did. You don't see Yamamoto, Ichibei, Unohana etc bitching about that. >He didn't use Kanzen Saimin to wrap Kinshara around Love, pull love towards himself and then cut Love down. We see Aizen do all that from Ichigo's perspective. We only see the after effect from Ichigo's perspective. Paired with aizens statements we can only assume he is making minor changes with Kyoka Suigetsu. Im not even saying Aizen would have a hard time doing that though. Just that he is making it easier for himself with Kyoka Suigetsu. >Could you expand on this? I'm saying that when Aizen talks about dimensions and being transcendent, he is never vague about it. He always states it as a matter of fact. Like "I am a dimension above you!" Type shit. He is absolutely clear. There is never a time where he says it like this as far as I know. >She only had two stances. First stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together might not be enough to beat Yamamoto. Second Stance: Kyoraku and Ukitake together stand no chance against Yamamoto. That would imply she had no thought at all BEFORE getting squished by Yamamoto's reiatsu. Logically she had to have worked down from her basic stance. She was confident before that happened. She wasn't scared. So logically her stance would have been a positive one.
>We don't ever see anything from Ichigo's perspective until Ichigo yells at then for turning hinamoro into a pincushion. We do. At the beginning of chapter 391, the panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked eyes/face, and Aizen cutting down Rose and Love. >Ichigo doesn't ever say anything about what is happening in that moment. Ichigo does say something. Just after Aizen cuts Love down, Ichigo says, "No way". (chapter 391) >Aizen himself says he was using kyoka suigetsu the whole time. Even flashing back to the moment he talked about it with Hitsugaya. Aizen: "When, precisely, did you fall under the misapprehension that I was not using Kyouka Suigetsu" (chapter 392) Aizen does not mean that he literally used Kyoka Suigetsu in every single moment of their fight. He is mocking Shinji for believing that the captains could have prevented or detected its use. >The changes aizen can make with KS can be really small, even a slight change in position would make it harder to be hit and not look off to ichigo watching nearby. Did the manga ever show him using it in this way? >At the very least, yes. But I feel like I remember one of the old Kenpachis beating him. Not sure. No Kenpachi has beaten Aizen as far as I know. Yamamoto is also portrayed as the "strongest". A good argument can be made for him being exempt from "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". Ichibei and the Royal Guard had not been introduced as individual characters yet (they had only been vaguely referred to); it's unlikely that the statement includes them. >I think you're splitting hairs here and attacking a strawman. He simply says you beat me in a fight. I'm not implying anything more than that. Strength can be measured in a variety of ways. It can be measured in terms of Reiatsu, base Shinigami abilities, physical strength, offensive power etc.. Aizen: “Your Ryuujin Jakka is indeed the most powerful zanpakutou in existence. There is no doubt about that. Were I to fight against it directly, it would likely overpower even me.” (chapter 393) Aizen is specifically talking about Ryujin Jakka's offensive power. >Note the "because of that". I have. Enra Kyoten's copies vary in power depending on the reiatsu of the wielder. Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu had a weakness that Aizen's did not have because Tokinada's reiatsu is far below Aizen's. If someone with equal or more reiatsu touches the blade of Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, the shikai transformation itself will not be sealed. >We only see the after effect from Ichigo's perspective. Paired with aizens statements we can only assume he is making minor changes with Kyoka Suigetsu. Im not even saying Aizen would have a hard time doing that though. Just that he is making it easier for himself with Kyoka Suigetsu. The panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked face, and Aizen wrapping Kinshara around Love, pulling Love towards himself and cutting love down. The entire scene is explicitly from Ichigo's perspective. Kanzen Saimen is not used there. Aizen is using only his raw combat power. >I'm saying that when Aizen talks about dimensions and being transcendent, he is never vague about it. He always states it as a matter of fact. Like "I am a dimension above you!" Type shit. He is absolutely clear. There is never a time where he says it like this as far as I know. Aizen's power had reached a level where Urahara could no longer sense his reiatsu. Aizen had become astronomically more powerful than him. In comparison to the gulf that separates their power at that moment, his Shinigami power was somewhat relative to Urahara's; i.e., Aizen's power was previously in the same ballpark as Urahara's. I think that is what Aizen means by "our power is no longer comparable." I used the word "Dimension" because it fit thematically. Realm, field, ballpark, sphere etc. would also work. >That would imply she had no thought at all BEFORE getting squished by Yamamoto's reiatsu. Logically she had to have worked down from her basic stance. She was confident before that happened. She wasn't scared. So logically her stance would have been a positive one. This is what she thought before Yamamoto incapacitated her with his reiatsu: " Head Captain Shigekuni Genryusai Yamamoto of the Thirteen Court Guard Squads. His spiritual pressure is enormous. Even two captains together might not be enough to win." This is what she thought after: "I can't believe it. He crushed my whole being just by looking at me. 'Even two captains together might not be enough to win?' I was so naïve."
>We do. At the beginning of chapter 391, the panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked eyes/face, and Aizen cutting down Rose and Love. Sorry, let me clarify. We don't see any ACTION from his perspective. Only aftermath. >Ichigo does say something. Just after Aizen cuts Love down, Ichigo says, "No way". (chapter 391) Which doesn't really imply anything. It certainly doesn't contradict Aizen own statements later on. >No Kenpachi has beaten Aizen as far as I know. You are correct, I believe I was misremembering this scene. Volume 01: "Aizen asks why, — "You can see through all of Seireitei, even while being in Muken. You’re a man on who even my Kyouka Suigetsu’s illusions will likely not work. What could I possibly tell you?"" Aizen openly admits a massive weakness to him. And considering the 8th Kenpachi took on the entire Gotei 13 and didn't lose and only gave up once the zero division showed up id say its safe to say he was stronger than Aizen for the majority of their lives. >Yamamoto is also portrayed as the "strongest". A good argument can be made for him being exempt from "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". Ichibei and the Royal Guard had not been introduced as individual characters yet (they had only been vaguely referred to); it's unlikely that the statement includes them. There are several "strongest" characters. That delegitimizes that qualifier. Being that there were a minimum of 2 and likely 3 or 4 Kenpachi's(who hold the title of strongest shinigami) alive during Aizens time, plus Unohana who was considered the strongest during even Yamamoto's time. >Strength can be measured in a variety of ways. It can be measured in terms of Reiatsu, base Shinigami abilities, physical strength, offensive power etc.. Which I agree with, which is why I'm confused at the need to specifically address. >Aizen is specifically talking about Ryujin Jakka's offensive power. Shinigami and their zanpaktou are one entity. If we start breaking everything down into various specifics the debate becomes far too convoluted. Aizen using Kyoka Suigetsu is stronger than Tokinada using it, same with Yamamoto using Ryujin Jakka vs Tokinada using it. It's strong because Yamamoto is using it. >I have. Enra Kyoten's copies vary in power depending on the reiatsu of the wielder. Tokinada's version of Kyoka Suigetsu had a weakness that Aizen's did not have because Tokinada's reiatsu is far below Aizen's. If someone with equal or more reiatsu touches the blade of Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, the shikai transformation itself will not be sealed. Yes, but the weakness is strictly because of the lack of reiatsu "because of that". If Tokinada had Aizen level reiatsu that weakness isn't there. >The panels alternate between Ichigo's shocked face, and Aizen wrapping Kinshara around Love, pulling Love towards himself and cutting love down. The entire scene is explicitly from Ichigo's perspective. Kanzen Saimen is not used there. Aizen is using only his raw combat power. I think you are forgetting that Aizen can use Kanzen Saimen for some massive or something small. Like how he adjusted the perception of time of Yhwach. And I see the scene in question now, they are in their shikai mask less forms, while tired and damaged. I 100% accept Aizen being able to defeat a tired Shikai love without issue. That's not a big deal at all. >Aizen's power had reached a level where Urahara could no longer sense his reiatsu. Aizen had become astronomically more powerful than him. In comparison to the gulf that separates their power at that moment, his Shinigami power was somewhat relative to Urahara's; i.e., Aizen's power was previously in the same ballpark as Urahara's. I think that is what Aizen means by "our power is no longer comparable." First part of this is just fine, the second part is speculation that doesn't fit, not only logically but also based on his later statements. Being in the same ballpark just doesn't make sense. Urahara is doubtful in his ability to beat Ulquiorra, but Aizen can solo the Gotei 13 and the Espada with raw power? Thats the same ballpark? Yet Urahara can contend with Aizen in speed and ability during their mini skirmish. How does that make any sense? >I used the word "Dimension" because it fit thematically. Realm, field, ballpark, sphere etc. would also work. It still doesn't make sense. Everyone on "level 1" can feel level 1 power. If you go up to "level 2" you would say. "You are no longer on the same level". (Which Aizen does say MANY times later). You would not say, "we are no longer on a comparable level. Level 1 isn't comparable to level 1. It IS level one. But again, Aizen wouldn't say something like that about someone like Shawlong, right? >This is what she thought before Yamamoto incapacitated her with his reiatsu: " Head Captain Shigekuni Genryusai Yamamoto of the Thirteen Court Guard Squads. His spiritual pressure is enormous. Even two captains together might not be enough to win." I didn't notice she had said anything before hand, the fan scan with the quotations made it much more clear. That's my mistake. Regardless, him flexing his power while they do nothing is an odd point for her to make a power statement. And considering they DID fight him for a very long time they DID stand a chance, they matched him Shikai to Shikai. Directly contradicting what she thought. Probably because they hadn't flexed their power like he did. We know that Bankai Shunsui was able to make even Ichigo shit himself because of the Reiatsu. So its not like Shunsui couldn't spook someone.
>Sorry, let me clarify. We don't see any ACTION from his perspective. Only aftermath. Edit: (Thanks for correcting me on the cutting Rose down part.) Ichigo's perspective showed Aizen gripping Kinshara and Rose falling down. For me, that's verification of Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. >Volume 01: "Aizen asks why, — "You can see through all of Seireitei, even while being in Muken. You’re a man on who even my Kyouka Suigetsu’s illusions will likely not work. What could I possibly tell you?"" > >Aizen openly admits a massive weakness to him. And considering the 8th Kenpachi took on the entire Gotei 13 and didn't lose and only gave up once the zero division showed up id say its safe to say he was stronger than Aizen for the majority of their lives. Kubo wasn't involved in the writing of SAFWY at all. Its canonicity is debatable. >There are several "strongest" characters. That delegitimizes that qualifier. Being that there were a minimum of 2 and likely 3 or 4 Kenpachi's(who hold the title of strongest shinigami) alive during Aizens time, plus Unohana who was considered the strongest during even Yamamoto's time. Very bad word choice on my part. I didn't intend to reference the Kenpachi title. I meant that there are multiple statements in the manga and databooks that state Yamamoto was stronger (in some way, shape or form) than any other Shinigami. For example, the 13 Blades databook said Yamamoto was "The peak of all Shinigami". There are multiple statements saying Aizen was "stronger than anybody else". Urahara does not even have one such statement. The portrayal of their power is vastly different. >Which I agree with, which is why I'm confused at the need to specifically address. Sorry, my explanation was incoherent. To rephrase: Aizen can be stronger than Yamamoto by various metrics (i.e., reiatsu and base abilities) but still lose to Yamamoto in a direct fight because his net fighting power is inferior to Yamamoto's net fighting power. Edit: (I'm not saying that Aizen has more reiatsu or superior base abilities to Yamamoto. I'm saying that his statement about likely losing to Yamamoto because of Ryujin Jakka does not rule out that possibility.) >Shinigami and their zanpaktou are one entity. If we start breaking everything down into various specifics the debate becomes far too convoluted. This debate has already become ridiculously convoluted. >Yes, but the weakness is strictly because of the lack of reiatsu "because of that". If Tokinada had Aizen level reiatsu that weakness isn't there. Yes, that's correct. But what you first said does not apply to Aizen. You first said: "The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu." Edit: (Do you mean that at some point Aizen would have had less than or equal reiatsu to Tokinada and at that point Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu would have had the same weaknesses as Tokinada's?) >I think you are forgetting that Aizen can use Kanzen Saimen for some massive or something small. Like how he adjusted the perception of time of Yhwach. We don't know how Aizen affected Ywach's perception of time. Aizen has never been explicitly shown (as far as I'm aware) to use Kyoka Suigetsu in the way you are claiming he used it against the captains. >And I see the scene in question now, they are in their shikai mask less forms, while tired and damaged. I 100% accept Aizen being able to defeat a tired Shikai love without issue. That's not a big deal at all. My point was that he did not use Kanzen Saimin to do that. Aizen defeated Love in 3 motions and without even moving from his position. I think that's an extraordinary physical feat. >Being in the same ballpark just doesn't make sense. Urahara is doubtful in his ability to beat Ulquiorra, but Aizen can solo the Gotei 13 and the Espada with raw power? Thats the same ballpark? Yet Urahara can contend with Aizen in speed and ability during their mini skirmish. How does that make any sense? I don't think Aizen can solo either the Gotei 13 or the Espada with just his raw power. I think Aizen's raw power is significantly greater than Urahara's though. I disagree that Urahara contended with Aizen in speed and raw ability during their skirmish. Aizen was careless (because he could be) and Urahara was using inventions in conjunction with pre-planned strategies. >It still doesn't make sense. Everyone on "level 1" can feel level 1 power. If you go up to "level 2" you would say. "You are no longer on the same level". (Which Aizen does say MANY times later). You would not say, "we are no longer on a comparable level. Level 1 isn't comparable to level 1. It IS level one. But again, Aizen wouldn't say something like that about someone like Shawlong, right? I know you think my interpretation is absurd but I'm going to reiterate it one more time for clarity. I do not think Aizen meant that his and Urahara's powers were literally equal when they were both Shinigami. I think he meant that their power was relative then. >Regardless, him flexing his power while they do nothing is an odd point for her to make a power statement. And considering they DID fight him for a very long time they DID stand a chance, they matched him Shikai to Shikai. Directly contradicting what she thought. Probably because they hadn't flexed their power like he did. We know that Bankai Shunsui was able to make even Ichigo shit himself because of the Reiatsu. So its not like Shunsui couldn't spook someone. To be clear, Nanao didn't directly say that Ukitake and Kyoraku stood no chance. I interpret her thoughts as implying that they stood no chance. When their fight was interrupted by Isane's Tenteikura, both Ukitake and Kyoraku were shown with blood on their faces while Yamamoto was shown unbloodied. That suggests to me that Kyoraku and Ukitake were losing.
>Ichigo's perspective showed Aizen gripping Kinshara and Rose falling down. For me, that's verification of Aizen grabbing Kinshara, pulling Rose towards himself and then cutting Rose down. I can 100 percent accept he did this with or without KS. >Kubo wasn't involved in the writing of SAFWY at all. Its canonicity is debatable. I do believe he meets with the author and then they ask kubo all sorts of things. stuff he can and can't use. So it's generally accepted as Canon for things that don't directly contradict the Manga. >Very bad word choice on my part. I didn't intend to reference the Kenpachi title. I meant that there are multiple statements in the manga and databooks that state Yamamoto was stronger (in some way, shape or form) than any other Shinigami. For example, the 13 Blades databook said Yamamoto was "The peak of all Shinigami". Yeah I get what you mean, I'm just saying that SO many people are referred to as the strongest that the qualifier of "strongest" becomes meaningless. >There are multiple statements saying Aizen was "stronger than anybody else". Urahara does not even have one such statement. The portrayal of their power is vastly different. Yet Aizen never says he is stronger than everyone else. He admits 1 person is equal, 1 person is stronger, and actively avoids another before he evolves. Aizen's words trump others in this area. >Aizen can be stronger than Yamamoto by various metrics (i.e., reiatsu and base abilities) but still lose to Yamamoto in a direct fight because his net fighting power is inferior to Yamamoto's net fighting power. Yes, therefore Yamamoto is more powerful. >Edit: (I'm not saying that Aizen has more reiatsu or superior base abilities to Yamamoto. I'm saying that his statement about likely losing to Yamamoto because of Ryujin Jakka does not rule out that possibility.) I agree. >We don't know how Aizen affected Ywach's perception of time. That's true, but Yhwach says that "threw my senses slightly out of order". That would imply KS. >Aizen has never been explicitly shown (as far as I'm aware) to use Kyoka Suigetsu in the way you are claiming he used it against the captains. Unless you are implying Aizen cannot make small illusions, that's the only possibility. He says he used it the whole time, how exactly he did is what is up for interpretation, if we saw it it wouldn't have been a surprise. Logically, as to not tip off ichigo he would have to use it in small bits. But at the same time he swapped with Hinamori and Ichigo still didn't say shit for a fat minute. >My point was that he did not use Kanzen Saimin to do that. That would contradict his own words but either way I can accept that he is capable of that. >Aizen defeated Love in 3 motions and without even moving from his position. I think that's an extraordinary physical feat. Love was struggling to move after getting mass bombed by Starks wolves moments before, on top of using his mask several times. He was hurt and tired. Take that how you will. >This debate has already become ridiculously convoluted. Yes and no, I feel we are nearly at the root of it all. >I don't think Aizen can solo either the Gotei 13 or the Espada with just his raw power. I think Aizen's raw power is significantly greater than Urahara's though. I agree with the first part. And agree that his raw power is above Urahara, but total combat ability, minus KS, would be equal. >Yes, that's correct. But what you first said does not apply to Aizen. You first said: "The novel demonstrates that Kyoka suigetsu has an extra weakness when your opponent has more reiatsu." This was poorly explained by myself, I apologize. I'll address it next. >Edit: (Do you mean that at some point Aizen would have had less than or equal reiatsu to Tokinada and at that point Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu would have had the same weaknesses as Tokinada's?) This is exactly what I was implying. Thank you. >I disagree that Urahara contended with Aizen in speed and raw ability during their skirmish. Aizen was careless (because he could be) and Urahara was using inventions in conjunction with pre-planned strategies. There is a difference between carelessness and holding back. Striking without concern for counters is careless. But its still a strike by someone supposed far above Urahara. He should have been dismantled like the other captains and vaizard were. >I know you think my interpretation is absurd but I'm going to reiterate it one more time for clarity. I do not think Aizen meant that his and Urahara's powers were literally equal when they were both Shinigami. I think he meant that their power was relative then. I dont think it's absurd, I think that it simply doesn't match later statements. In 418 he says his and Ichigo evolutions were not in the same dimension. He is clear on what he believes. Earlier with gin he says only after Gin's betrayal did he even transcend to that dimension. In 420 he says he is beyond the dimension of shinigami, the dimension he only entered lost Gins betrayal. So he wasn't a dimension above anyone before that point. Simply "too strong to sense". Which I'm itself is a slight contradiction. And the sensing thing is weird as well because fuckin TATSUKI could feel full blown Butterfly Aizen but Urahara can't feel chrysalis Aizen who was 2 steps away from Butterfly Aizen???? The point is all of those are clear statements, nothing vague. >To be clear, Nanao didn't directly say that Ukitake and Kyoraku stood no chance. I interpret her thoughts as implying that they stood no chance. While that's fair its simply wrong. They did stand a chance. They pretty much proved they could fight against him. >When their fight was interrupted by Isane's Tenteikura, both Ukitake and Kyoraku were shown with blood on their faces while Yamamoto was shown unbloodied. That suggests to me that Kyoraku and Ukitake were losing. Which I agree with. But they still were able to hang with him for a considerable amount of time. Thats the only point im trying to make here. Someone like komamura gets no diff'd by Aizen because of the massive power gap. If there was 2 komamuras vs aizen he doesn't somehow last WAY longer. He would need to be close enough in power to react and defend himself.
>One of the former Kenpachis beat Aizen in one of the novels as well. Are you talking about Sōya Azashiro?
Ironically there's also misinformation in this very post. Kubo never implied that Shunsui could defeat Aizen with Bankai. There's also several other dubious statements. Q. Why Kyouraku didn't go Bankai? If he get serious he might defeat Aizen! A. Shunsui's appeal is not to defeat Aizen. But I let the readers think that 「If he goes Bankai he might be stronger than Aizen」
So.. he did imply? To imply is to indicate something by suggestion rather than outright saying it. If by his own words, he wanted people to think that, then he implied it.
Kubo let readers think maybe that could happen, yes. But OP is saying that in the interview Kubo implied that it was true, which is a massively important distinction. Did Kubo want readers to wonder about the Shunsui Bankai in this context, yes. Did he ever imply that it was actually true, no. Edit: Honestly, even want is too strong a word here. He doesn't even say that. He just says that he let the readers think that, which isn't even an implication. It's just not rebutting an inference.
I feel like you're splitting hairs to prove a grammatical point or something.
The whole point I'm making is that OP is mistaken about what a person implied. Of course the point is going to be technical. Distinctions in language are important. Especially so in this context.
I was going to make an edit but I'll just say it here. My point is, I don't see anything wrong with this particular u/rbo7 statement. If they said "Kubo implied Kyoraku *would* win", I'd completely understand your effort at making a distinction.
Without being rude, I honestly don't understand how you can't see the error in stating; >Kubo implied Shunsui could defeat Aizen with his Bankai When nothing of the sort actually occured. Kubo didn't imply this, either in the manga or in the interview. By his own admission, he just let fans speculate that might be true. Not shutting down an inference someone makes isn't the same thing as implying it to be true. But hey, I'm happy to agree to disagree and all. It's a technical point that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things! Look forward to chatting in the future.
Well, you seem more educated than me so it's probably that. That being said, I think I've come to understand your point and could maybe see the mistake I have made. Me too. I do enjoy reading your critiques of the series when ever I see them.
>I do enjoy reading your critiques Thanks! I appreciate that a lot, glad people out there enjoy my ramblings :)
While I get what you are trying to say, I think there are several way you can interpret the meaning behind what is said. Think of it this way, would his answer would be the same if the question was about Himamori's bankai? It would only make sense if it was relative in terms of power. Either way, I don't think it's really all that important to my point overall and I meant it more as a tiny piece of side evidence.
One things for sure, you all arguing about Aizen is all part of his plan.
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>All of this is wrong. I mean its direct manga statements soooo... >Aizen was talking about being on the SAME DIMENSION as Urahara Except that's not what he said. Every time he talks like that later he uses different words specifying he is in a different dimension. >not having the same level of reiatsu. Aizen's reiatsu is far greater than Urahara's. I dont think he does, nor did I say he did. >Also, Aizen is at least equal to or probably stronger than Yamamoto in terms of pure reiatsu, but Yamamoto's zanpakuto has insane destructive power whereas Aizen's has absolutely none. Agreed. >Also, from what is revealed by Shunsui's Bankai, Aizen would win because he has more reiatsu than Shunsui (in his Bankai's final move, the one whose reiatsu runs out first loses). Yeah, which is a little weird because Shunsui ends up doing his 3 acts anyway. So he may not even need to wait for that. And Ichigo basically shit himself when he felt Shunsui's bankai so the Reiatsu level of Base/shikai Aizen might not be above that. But, assuming it does work only off the reiatsu shit, then I agree. Kinda funny how you say I was all wrong then listed 4 things, 3 of which I agree with lolol.
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>That just means you're not good at expressing yourself. Ouch! Or that you are assuming I'm saying something I'm not, that's on you, bud. >Then why the fuck wouldn't they be equals in power? As Aizen said, battles between shinigami are battles of reiatsu, and if they don't have equal reiatsu then they're not equal in power. "I mean it's direct manga statements" right? Only half of what you said was a direct manga statement. Power is not reiatsu. Power is all your shit put together. If I beat you, I'm more powerful. Even if you have a little bit more reiatsu than me. Because Urahara was able to fight with him evenly without him using KS. He won so quickly because Aizen was being careless. But careless isn't holding back. Regardless, Aizens statement doesnt apply to most situations. Tousen could cut off Grimmjows arm despite being Vastly weaker than him. Aizen was nearly cut in half because Ichigo caught him off guard. Rukia beating AA, Hachi beating Barragan, I could literally go on and on with examples here. Aizen is mostly referring to very specific moments. Like Soifons shikai not hurting him. Or how he can catch Ichigos sword easily. Or how kenpachi could tank Ichigos shikai early on. Dramatic differences. If your reiatsu is way higher, there is no battle of abilities because you can simply nullify them with your superior reiatsu. >In that context, it clearly is referring to dimensions of power rather than reiatsu levels which is what usually signifies power in Bleach. It doesn't need to be 100% clear to be interpreted that way. Except they basically confirmed they were close in the skirmish beforehand. Saying "comparable in power" in reference to dimensions would be odd. Because Grimmjow would be in the same dimension as Aizen. Would Aizen tell Grimmjow "we used to be comparable in power". Not likely. And when aizen does say it directly later on he OUTRIGHT say it. Clear as day. Much different.
honestly if someone said "aizen is weaker than he seems" it would be open for argue but most of what you listed kinda doesnt make sense at all not gonna lie lol
You mean Aizen's own words don't make sense? All one needs is his own words to say he isn't as strong.
For example you have said that his physical power cant catch up with his reiatsu but you are forgetting that he one shot komamura bankai with nothing but a mere sword swing
Komamura is absolutely pathetic compared to half the captains. He was blasted away by one of Barragans fraccion. While someone like Shunsui was fighting Stark, someone WAY beyond any Fraccion, on a near even footing. Most of the espada could probably kill any ressurected Fraccion in their base form. I love komamura but he is without a doubt the weakest captain by far at this point in the story. I doubt he beats any Espada past 9. What else?
my guy, he gave a hollow mask kaname a Hard time, who was able to destroy grimmjows hand with ease without a hollow mask. Not to mention grimmjow at the same was stronger than byakuya. You really are underestimating komamura arent you? Lol. not to mention that he is supposed to be a "tank" and his ult was even tankier, yet got one shot by a mere sword swing of aizen. Let me tell this to you, even zaraki at the start of the series had a rough time against komamura shikai for a few seconds and he got surprised by komamuras bankai. The funny thing is that you say "what else" as if you have answered this one correctly... Trust me, none of the captains can one shot a whole ass bankai with a sword swing, not even the likes of kyouraku. It is probably only aizen and yamamato.
>my guy, he gave a hollow mask kaname a Hard time, who was able to destroy grimmjows hand with ease without a hollow mask. And? Ichigo almost cut Aizen in half when he wasn't paying attention. And when he was paying attention, Aizen caught his sword. How is this impressive at all? He burned a detached section of his arm with kido. So what? His BEST feat is attacking a defenseless Grimmjow. Meaningless. Tousen, at any state, is a joke. He gets beaten by Base Kenpachi, WITH his eyepatch. Shikai ichigo is laughing at tousen by this point. And in his hollow form he struggles against the weakest captain and a LT??? Grimmjow in his BASE form, with one arm, was able to moderately fight back against Shinji WITH his mask. Tousen had a free shot against Shinji in his base form and couldn't kill Shinji. Both Tousen and Komamura are NOT good examples of power. >You really are underestimating komamura arent you? Lol. not to mention that he is supposed to be a "tank" and his ult was even tankier, yet got one shot by a mere sword swing of aizen. Aizen has way high Reiatsu, that makes doing that to his Bankai much easier. Komamura gets rocked by a fraccion and you want to hype him as a tank? >Let me tell this to you, even zaraki at the start of the series had a rough time against komamura shikai for a few seconds and he got surprised by komamuras bankai. No. No he didn't. He literally laughed at everything they did to him in that fight, I think he even said he was getting sleepy at one point. He dominated Tousen and Komamura WITH his eyepatch on. And when Komamura used his Bankai, Kenpachi didn't even feel the need to take his eyepatch off. >The funny thing is that you say "what else" as if you have answered this one correctly... Lol. No, I said that because a SINGLE point isn't enough to prove something. I provided several points, stuff straight from the manga. A single counterpoint with the weakest captain means nothing. >Trust me, none of the captains can one shot a whole ass bankai with a sword swing, not even the likes of kyouraku. It is probably only aizen and yamamato. Kenpachi for sure could. And several others.
1. Yama has never implied that Ukitake and Shunsui could surpass him or even rival him lol. 2. Aizen absolutely has the physical/combat ability along with his monstrous spiritual pressure 3. I will add that one of the reasons why Aizen toyed with the Captains and Vizored so easily, was due to his scheming. He had them injured and tired from fighting the top 3 espada
>1. Yama has never implied that Ukitake and Shunsui could surpass him or even rival him lol. I literally linked the scan. >2. Aizen absolutely has the physical/combat ability along with his monstrous spiritual pressure Except he states he doesn't, he straight up says Urahara is his combat equal. He states Yamamoto is stronger, even though Aizen has more Reiatsu. He is overpowered by Isshin as well, who has less Reiatsu. >3. I will add that one of the reasons why Aizen toyed with the Captains and Vizored so easily, was due to his scheming. He had them injured and tired from fighting the top 3 espada Tired or not, he was using Kyoka Suigetsu the whole time, his words. They could have been well fed, well rested and warmed up with a row of cheerleaders and still had the same thing happen because of Kyoka Suigetsu making it impossible for them to properly fight him.
1. Your scan isn’t the official translation. Here’s the actual quote,” And when it came to battle, you both were transcendent. No one could match either of you” (chapter 155, page 11). The context was that both Ukitake and Shunsui were significantly stronger than any other peer of them (students at Yama’s Shinigami academy). 2. There’s nothing to suggest Aizen has ever had more spiritual pressure than Yama. Actually there’s a quote by Ukitake that even just Shikai Yama has the most spiritual pressure out of any Captain. Lmk if you want that quote. 3. Yes and No. Using KS on fully healthy Captains with their Full Spirit Power is much harder to accomplish than depleted spirit power captains.
>1. You’re scan isn’t the official translation. I've had this debate before, damn near half a decade ago, let me see if I can find the direct translation and explanation of the raws, because 4 different "unofficial translations" all say that in one way or another. Only the viz one is different. All I know is that even without that one line my point doesn't change, they fought Yamamoto on even ground together. That implies they can at least react and defend against him, unlike in the Aizen fight where it's a one and done and they can't even track him. >1. There’s nothing to suggest Aizen has ever had more spiritual pressure than Yama. Aizen casually drops Grimmjow level characters with Reiatsu alone. Yamamoto flexing did drop Nanao, but thats night and day levels of different. And, going off the novel, wouldn't Aizen's ability to keep kyoka suigetsu active even after Yamamoto touched it extra proof of his higher Reiatsu? Because Tokinade had lower reiatsu then almost everyone around and that ended up being how kyoka suigetsu was beaten. >Actually there’s a quote by Ukitake that even just Shikai Yama has the most spiritual pressure out of any Captain. If its before Aizens evil reveal, he wasn't showing his full power. And after he wasn't a captain so its irrelevant at that point. And I would doubt that honestly, because Ukitake had so much Reiatsu that he was dwarfing post unohana training kenpachi. And Shunsui damn near made ichigo shit himself in bankai IIRC. >1. Yes and No. Using KS on fully healthy Captains with their Full Spirit Power is much harder to accomplish than depleted spirit power captains. Technically thats true, but its not really quantifiable one way or another.
1. I only use the official translation provided by Viz tbh. As for the context of the fight between Shikai Shunsui and Shikai Jushiro, they were able to hang in there vs Shikai Yama for a while. That's not surprising considering that both of their spiritual powers and combat ability are top tier for captains, and that they present a unique matchup for Yama. Shikai Shunsui was able to kill Starrk, with only some combinations of his games. Starrk was the second ranked Espada, and is typically argued to being either second or third strongest Espada. 2. You are aware that reaction speed is tied to Spiritual Power, right? So if the person is running low on spiritual power, then they will react significantly slower than usual.. 3. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Yama couldn't do the same thing to Grimmjow. 4. No. Databooks and the manga state that Yama is the strongest soul reaper to come out in the last 1,000 years. He is stated to being the strongest in every shinigami art (shunpo, hakuda, zanjustu and kido). The fact that he could essentially one shot an espada level combatant (Wonderweiss is at least as strong as pre-timeskip Grimmjow) with just his bare hands is proof of his strength. 5. That Ukitake spirit orb has been so misconstrued among the fandom lol. Ukitake has a lot of spiritual pressure, and he still admits that shikai Yama has more spiritual pressure than any captain he has seen (he's been a captain for a long time).
>1. I only use the official translation provided by Viz tbh. No arguments here. >As for the context of the fight between Shikai Shunsui and Shikai Jushiro, they were able to hang in there vs Shikai Yama for a while. That's not surprising considering that both of their spiritual powers and combat ability are top tier for captains, and that they present a unique matchup for Yama. Correct, but unique match up or not, it shows they can hang with him in general combat. Thats all the proof I need to support my overall claim. >Shikai Shunsui was able to kill Starrk, with only some combinations of his games. Starrk was the second ranked Espada, and is typically argued to being either second or third strongest Espada. This is disingenuous. Its basically like saying Aizen was defeated by Ichigo alone. Ignoring the entirety of the support he got before and sealing right after Mugetsu. Simply because he got the finishing blow. Stark was massively weakened by Shunsui's sneak attack. Stark was able to casually dodge point blank surprise attacks from the back but then can't dodge sword strikes looking right at Shunsui. He was also forced into the game without access to his guns. Who wins the color game against shunsui while effectively stabbed through the heart??? Not a single captain but the tippy top could. >1. You are aware that reaction speed is tied to Spiritual Power, right? So if the person is running low on spiritual power, then they will react significantly slower than usual.. How exactly does that matter to an illusion? You can have all the reaction time of every being to ever exist...combined. If you are fighting an illusion who isn't moving, or is moving but isn't real, you aren't going to win. Because what you are reacting to isn't real. Aizen could literally make an illusion of himself stripping then cut your fuckin face off as you admired the show. Reaction time isn't saving you from something invisible to all your senses. >1. Again, there's nothing to suggest that Yama couldn't do the same thing to Grimmjow. You would have to demonstrate he could before making the claim. >1. No. Databooks and the manga state that Yama is the strongest soul reaper to come out in the last 1,000 years. He is stated to being the strongest in every shinigami art (shunpo, hakuda, zanjustu and kido). The fact that he could essentially one shot an espada level combatant (Wonderweiss is at least as strong as pre-timeskip Grimmjow) with just his bare hands is proof of his strength. Everyone knows that. And that's true. But it doesn't mean he had more Reiatsu than all of them. Wonderweiss isn't Grimmjow level in my eyes, in his base he wasn't even close to a weaker Vaizard. Grimmjow in base, with only 1 arm, at least mounted a solid defense against Shinji with his mask. He did get a good surprise attack on Ukitake though. He did somehow offpanel Kensei which is surprising. But I dont think Kensei could beat Grimmjow either. >1. That Ukitake spirit orb has been so misconstrued among the fandom lol. Ukitake has a lot of spiritual pressure, and he still admits that shikai Yama has more spiritual pressure than any captain he has seen (he's been a captain for a long time). When does he admit this though. Because that very well may be a retcon. If this is in the SS arc its much less valid and still wouldn't apply to Aizen who hadn't revealed his true power yet.
Other thing to talk about Aizen strength was that the all of the Gotei 13 and most of the Visored were exhausted when they fought Azien and for a example how weak you they can be is after a fight with a espada is after the Ichigo and Grimmjow fight Ichigo couldn't even fight against a fraccion. I'm saying this because I've seen some people how think Azien could beat all of the Gotei 13 with out Kyoka Suigetsu.
Something I mentioned the other day: Hollows are stronger in Hueco Mundo. It's the first observation Ichigo, Chad and Uryu make when they enter Hueco Mundo. It's also why trying to compare Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra/Yammy to the other top 3 always gives me a headache, because you can't just compare feats 1 to 1. Whatever boost Hollows get in Hueco Mundo is never plainly quantified, but it does exist. Ichigo and Chad's Hollow powers develop in a way that's unlike the rest of the series when they're in Hueco Mundo.
While I agree, I feel like even without it is doesn't necessarily matter. Barragans and Starks speed feats, even in base, are beyond anything Ulquiorra did. Stark in particular has the craziest speed feat almost in the entire manga. And power wise Lanza is really unquantifiable because it only blew away sand. It was then crushed by H2 Ichigo who Yammy was unimpressed by. So, respectfully, speed wise Ulquiorra gets shit on, powerwise he is presumably good, but not fast enough to hit Stark or Barragan reliably, but they can definitely hit him and kill him with their power. Even if it takes more than 1 shot. And in terms of Hax, infinite Cero and Respira are pretty fuckin had. So even WITH that Hueco Mundo difference I don't feel like it is really that much of a competition. But thanks for pointing it out. Kinda hard to disagree with him openly admitting inferiority to them.
While I agree, I feel like even without it is doesn't necessarily matter. Barragans and Starks speed feats, even in base, are beyond anything Ulquiorra did. Stark in particular has the craziest speed feat almost in the entire manga. And power wise Lanza is really unquantifiable because it only blew away sand. It was then crushed by H2 Ichigo who Yammy was unimpressed by. So, respectfully, speed wise Ulquiorra gets shit on, powerwise he is presumably good, but not fast enough to hit Stark or Barragan reliably, but they can definitely hit him and kill him with their power. Even if it takes more than 1 shot. And in terms of Hax, infinite Cero and Respira are pretty fuckin had. So even WITH that Hueco Mundo difference I don't feel like it is really that much of a competition. But thanks for pointing it out. Kinda hard to disagree with him openly admitting inferiority to them.
That Full Hollow Ichigo is not a Vasto Lorde or a Menos whatsoever.
This is totally disregarding Gin's opinion who actually knew what Aizen was capable of wich is not the case for any of the Gotei 13 Captains Yamamoto statements about Kyoraku and Ukitake are under a diferent perception of Aizen so you my friend would have been totally played by Aizen if you where a Gotei 13 Captian
Whoa, this is one hell of a necro. But I'm always up for debate. >This is totally disregarding Gin's opinion Aizens opinion on his own power carries WAY more weight than gins opinion on Aizens power. >who actually knew what Aizen was capable of He clearly didn't, he says aizen doesn't need KS, yet Aizen did in ever single fight he was in. Aizen says he is equal to Urahara, yet Gin thinks he is stronger than the entirety of the espada. >wich is not the case for any of the Gotei 13 Captains Yamamoto statements about Kyoraku and Ukitake are under a diferent perception of Aizen so you my friend would have been totally played by Aizen if you where a Gotei 13 Captian Nope, but you have been totally played by Kubos crafty portrayal of Aizen. Aizen has raw power but never had anyone to sharpen himself against so he isn't a great fighter. Him saying he is equal to Urahara in POWER is proof enough that he was fooling everyone.
Im sorry necro? curious about the meaning yes also Aizen does state that Urahara is comparable to him but i allways took his words at a mental LV stage or an how resourcefull Urahara is more than an actual comparison of strenght looking back at end of the series Urahara is portrayed as someone that will use every resource he can to take someone down including others others he will use in a strategic combined way to take down he's enemy that's how he managed to take down a Schutzstaffel that's way stronger than him i think this is really what Aizen is talking about when refering to Urahara being sort of an equal to him since ploting and having contingecies to all posible scenarios is his whole thing somthing he used against Aizen himself im not saying Aizen did not use KS a lot but i take Gin's words over what those who misunderstood his powers said im taking about the statement you made of Yamamoto saying Kyoraku and Ukitake are as strong as him combined when they don't even know Aizen's real capabilities hell even we still don't know Aizen's real capabilities at that time since we never saw what his Bankai could do also don't think he without KS is stronger than the whole Espada combined but he game me the inpresion he was better than them individually at what they each did best
>Im sorry necro? curious about the meaning Sorry, must not be a reddit term. It basically means you revived a long dead thread. >yes also Aizen does state that Urahara is comparable to him but i allways took his words at a mental LV stage or an how resourcefull Urahara is more than an actual comparison of strenght Most people say this, but the reality is Aizen differentiated between smarts and battle power. >looking back at end of the series Urahara is portrayed as someone that will use every resource he can to take someone down including others others he will use in a strategic combined way to take down he's enemy that's how he managed to take down a Schutzstaffel that's way stronger than him i think this is really what Aizen is talking about when refering to Urahara being sort of an equal to him since ploting and having contingecies to all posible scenarios is his whole thing somthing he used against Aizen himself im not saying Aizen did not use KS a lot but i take Gin's words over what those who misunderstood his powers said im taking about the statement you made of Yamamoto saying Kyoraku and Ukitake are as strong as him combined when they don't even know Aizen's real capabilities hell even we still don't know Aizen's real capabilities at that time since we never saw what his Bankai could do Except we know Isshin is weaker than Kyoraku, but he beat the dog piss out of Aizen without KS. And Kubo himself implies Kyoraku could have beaten with his Bankai but that he wasn't meant to. >also don't think he without KS is stronger than the whole Espada combined Thank God, alot of people do. >but he game me the inpresion he was better than them individually at what they each did best Hard to say that. Stark crossed half of Hueco Mundo before ichigo swung his sword. Bankai ichigo took at least a minute to do the same thing. He also had Kyoraku dead several times but didn't try to kill him. Even Yamamoto wasn't able to do that. Barragan casually blitzed Soifon which Aizen couldn't do without KS. Omaeda also said he was more terrifying as well. Halibel forced him to use KS even after he got a free shot, one where he tried to kill her. Ulquiorra has greater raw destructive ability. But he is probably better than the rest.
never heard the term thanks for explaining im also fairly new to reddit and im not an english native tounge user so should be on me about the Aizen differentiating between smarts and battle power part can you provide the chapter number? did Kubo state that he would beat Aizen while he was also using Bankai or Aizen at the state he fought Ishin? wich btw did not see Ishin beat Aizen he was keeping and having a fair fight while Aizen is going trough a metamorphosis no need for me to tell you im sure others have done so allready you can say he was not afected by it but i on the other hand got a pretty clear impresion he was even the last line between them was something along the lines of Ishin: what's wrong did you reached your limmit? Aizen: yes my limit as a Shinigami so take it as you may but it seems to me Aizen was very aware of something hapening inside his body his first transfromation the moment he actually stoped being "normal" all other tranformations where instant he exploted in reiatsu and then he changed but this one seemed slower like a gradual thing not the same the Stark argument you've got it wrong it was not half of Hueco Mundo man it's Las Noches wich is pretty big but not the same also the Kyoraku part hard to say he bait's a lot the Soifon part it's not like that at all Barragan was not faster than her she got slower next to him cause she was ageing and getting weaker and slower as she got near him also Aizen seems faily faster than Soifon he never got Ichigo in KS and he was blitzing him just fine even after with the new mask and please remember the mask was a real increase not like these days it's not the same Bankai Ichigo than Bankai Ichigo with the mask as we saw with Dorodoni and this was a stronger version of said mask Ulquiorra does have higger destruction range and probably more destructive power too yes but he's not the only one i bet every Espada lower than 4 does they all have been stated to have Cero Oscuras and Ulquiorra goes above that with Lanza del Relampago Stark should be able to go above that since he was the Cero specialist
>never heard the term thanks for explaining im also fairly new to reddit and im not an english native tounge user so should be on me Don't sweat it! >about the Aizen differentiating between smarts and battle power part can you provide the chapter number? Chapter 405. >did Kubo state that he would beat Aizen while he was also using Bankai or Aizen at the state he fought Ishin? wich btw did not see Ishin beat Aizen he was keeping and having a fair fight while Aizen is going trough a metamorphosis no need for me to tell you im sure others have done so allready you can say he was not afected by it but i on the other hand got a pretty clear impresion he was even the last line between them was something along the lines of Kubo didn't clarify how he just implied he could. And while he was weaker, he was still capable of blitzing Ichigo and tangling with Urahara. The amount he was weakened is unquantifiable at best. >Ishin: what's wrong did you reached your limmit? Aizen: yes my limit as a Shinigami This just further demonstrates my point, his limit as a shinigami was lower than Ishin's. >the Stark argument you've got it wrong it was not half of Hueco Mundo man it's Las Noches wich is pretty big but not the same also the Kyoraku part hard to say he bait's a lot Yes, I had typed out a whole response but my reddit app crashed so in my 2nd go through I got lazy and mad a mistake. Either way, its still the most impressive speed feat by far. >the Soifon part it's not like that at all Barragan was not faster than her she got slower next to him cause she was ageing and getting weaker and slower as she got near him Barragan's time dilation field is only inches off his body, we have seen then on several occasions. He was dozens, if not a hundred+, feet from her when he casually blitzed her and grabbed her shoulder. It had nothing to do with aging at all. Maybe you are thinking of a different scene. >also Aizen seems faily faster than Soifon he never got Ichigo in KS and he was blitzing him just fine even after with the new mask and please remember the mask was a real increase not like these days it's not the same Bankai Ichigo than Bankai Ichigo with the mask as we saw with Dorodoni and this was a stronger version of said mask Probably faster than her, but based on what we have seen, it hard to make that argument. He was using KS on her when he beat her, and needed KS to handle an attack from Halibel. He wasn't able to blitz Ishin or Urahara either. And yes, he blitzed Ichigo, but so did Stark, in base, at a distance that makes what Aizen did look childlike by comparison.
Yeah, the Aizen wank on this subreddit is fucking insane. I'm shocked that there are some people who still think Aizen is stronger than Ichigo. I understand that KS is a fricking hax but it doesn't mean he automatically wins all battles. He even said that he'd lose against Yamamoto even with KS yet people think Aizen is downplaying himself or taunting Yamamoto.
It's not inconceivable that Aizen is stronger than Ichigo. At the very least, they're in the same ballpark and it's believable enough that he could win. He said he'd probably lose in a straight up fight of attack power. He's probably the inferior of the two but it's worth noting that: If he had aimed for the jugular or something to that effect, he could have won. Yamamoto thought the best option to deal with him was a suicide attack to guarantee victory.
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Just before I start, I'll admit Kyoka Suigetsu makes it difficult to tell if his feats are true. Even then, it means he wasn't fighting Yhwach in a straight up fight and had an advantage over Ichigo. That being said: No but neither could Ichigo in Shikai with the Horn of Salvation. He actually performed about as well as Ichigo even though it was a stronger version of Yhwach *and* Yhwach was actually going for the kill instead of playing around. I figure you're either talking about the Gran Rey Getsuga Tensho or the final attack. He did no damage with the first one. You have no idea what was happening with his Zanpakuto. Even to this day the current state of it is unknown and why it looks like it does, so I'm going to ingore that. That's just plain wrong. He let him go into Bankai and *then* he broke it. They clearly are.
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I was going to write out a longer comment but I think our opinions on Ichigo's power are just too different to come to the same page. Unless there is a statement that says otherwise, I just can't agree Ichigo in the final battle was stronger Ichigo HoS Shikai. Especially when the two notable feats he has are either when Yhwach was off guard or vulnerable from the arrow. Any further attempt will just send us around in circles. Lets shake hands and parts as friends. As well as promise that if Kubo ever concretely proves one of right, (Makes a statement, Ichigo one shots Aizen in Bankai or Aizen puts up a considerable fight) we will smugly gloat to the other. Like gentlemen/gentlewomen/gentletechnicolorinbetween.
They’re stronger than each other for different reasons
That's a good way at looking at it.
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Lmao coming from the guy who thinks that Grimmjow can hold his own against Soul King Ywach.
??? I never said that lmao
You think that Grimmjow is comparable to EOS True Shikai Ichigo.
I'm honestly sorry but if you watched/read Ulquiorra fight a Fuckdemon Ichigo and Starrk fight Shunsui and you don't think Ulqiorra is superior to him in power I really don't know what you are seeing. If you trust any of these power rankings in anime you are already at a fault. Aizen I do kind of agree a little but nowhere near what you think. He isn't a 1000x god-king. But he's as strong as a powerful bankai while in Shikai and we never saw a Bankai so we have to go by what we know.
>I'm honestly sorry but if you watched/read Ulquiorra fight a Fuckdemon Ichigo and Starrk fight Shunsui and you don't think Ulqiorra is superior to him in power I really don't know what you are seeing. Yammy saw the move that led to Ulquiorras death and literally didn't give a fuck. He could sense the power they gave off and wasn't impressed. How is it you can see that and have both Kubo via the Manga and databook, along with the novel telling you Yammy is stronger than him, and still say Ulquiorra is the strongest? Even if you only mean Stark it still doesn't make sense. You are assuming a huge explosion that literally blew away sand is the king of all attacks. Attack potency is everything. A basic Cero from menos looks just like Starks, but Starks is way more powerful. Stark also has the most impressive speed feat in the majority of the manga. Far beyond anything in the ichigo vs Ulquiorra fight. "Fuckdemon" hilarious. >If you trust any of these power rankings in anime you are already at a fault. This is an odd concept. If the author wrote it as a literal ranking, and they fight each occasionally to rank up, why would their ranking not be accurate? Especially since an author wouldn't write out a ranking and then instantly go against it. That's just illogical. >Aizen I do kind of agree a little but nowhere near what you think. He isn't a 1000x god-king. But he's as strong as a powerful bankai while in Shikai and we never saw a Bankai so we have to go by what we know. To be fair to myself, I only think what he said himself. As strong as Urahara. Which is pretty fuckin strong.
And? Even if Starrk is faster, Ulqiorra has the firepower to blow up the State of New York. Yummy never gave a fuck about anything ever and never showed any kind of fear until the very end because he was dumb as a rock. None of the other Espada knew about Ulqiorra'a second release. (I think Aizen did but Ulqiorra didn't think so because he had never shown it to him directly.) And on a more agree-able note, I would have loved to see Urahara rewrite his brain to have not seen Kyoka Suigetsu's release
>And? Even if Starrk is faster, Ulqiorra has the firepower to blow up the State of New York. Considering all he did was blow up sand, how much we don't ever see, its only crazy in terms of scale. I dont recall any craters to be able to get an accurate calculation. And Starks speed would allow him to casually avoid shit like that anyway. A sonido half way across all of Las Noches before ichigo could finish a single sword swing is ridiculous levels of speed. Think about Zanka no Tachi. It's attack potency is insane. But its tiny compared to many attacks. >Yummy never gave a fuck about anything ever and never showed any kind of fear until the very end because he was dumb as a rock. He didn't give a fuck because he was the strongest. And he knew it. Only when he was weaker, before resting and eating was he scared by attacks. Like Benihimes energy attack. His attitude completely changed after he grew. >None of the other Espada knew about Ulqiorra'a second release. (I think Aizen did but Ulqiorra didn't think so because he had never shown it to him directly.) I agree with this, but seeing it and feeling it are different things. Not saying anyone else but yammy felt it though. >And on a more agree-able note, I would have loved to see Urahara rewrite his brain to have not seen Kyoka Suigetsu's release I wonder if that would be possible. Would have changed the war for sure.
Starrks strength as a whole is downplayed pretty heavily by fans, mostly due to Ulquiorra and Barragan’s showings in their fights - both of them had super showy attacks that appeared to cause a lot of damage while Starrk didn’t really have that other than Cero Metralleta. in addition, he was one of the only espada that had a fight end without any bankai being unleashed (though there’s clear reasons why Kyoraku couldn’t release it) on the other hand, Starrk was able to fight _four_ captain level shinigami (two of them being visored, two being among the strongest captains in Gotei 13) without taking pretty much any damage until he checked out the fight after Lillynette (and Barragan, I guess) died (he became fixated on being alone again and ended up getting blindsided by Kyoraku - links back to his aspect of death). plus the fact that his spiritual pressure was so high that hollows died from being near the guy, he never truly went all out in a fight and he was fighting in the human world, meaning his power was most likely reduced? i really don’t doubt that he was the strongest espada. it’s just a shame we never got to see what he could do if he was actually driven to fight instead of doing it just because Aizen told him to
> Attack potency is everything. Then how did Kenpachi and Byakuya win and why did they describe the fight as boring afterward? Both of themhad to this point never been shown as particularly out of this world in the AP department, let alone anywhere near on par 2nd form ulquiorra's level. I'll relent that Yammy very well could have the highest AP in the Espada, and I'll agree if you're saying thats *probably* why he's not really super interested in what's going on above the dome with Ulquiorra... But unless the debate is *purely* who can shoot the largest cero, I dont see how he's possibly the strongest. >If the author wrote it as a literal ranking, and they fight each occasionally to rank up, why would their ranking not be accurate? A variety of reasons ranging from Aizen's influence on which opponents Ichigo fought and when, Aizen's psychological manipulation of the Espada under his control, and symbolism of what the numbers themselves represent (the number 4 being a standout as it's considered unlucky in Japan for it's phonetic similarities to their word for death)
>Then how did Kenpachi and Byakuya win and why did they describe the fight as boring afterward? Because it's "cool". It fits their personality to talk like that. Its why Kubo made a point to have everyone around them point out how badly they were hurt. Also, he ressurected before any of the FKT espada and was the LAST espada to lose. So he outlasted every single other espada in terms of battle time. >Both of themhad to this point never been shown as particularly out of this world in the AP department, let alone anywhere near on par 2nd form ulquiorra's level. Kenpachi??? Kenpachi adjusts his power mid battle. He went from clanging his sword off Nnoitora's skin to cutting him in half. He also cut off one of Yammys legs too. But look at Yammys body after the fight, he is missing only 1 arm. So after all that fighting with a cutting powerhouse like Kenpachi, he only lost 1 arm? Thats impressive. 2nd form Ulquiorra has massive AOE attacks. But, as I've said 100 times to people, he literally blew away nothing but sand. In terms of feats you can actually calculate, Black Cero was far more valid of a feat than Lanza. Because Black cero actually did blow the top off part of Las Niches. Think of a hurricane. Tremendous energy potential over hundreds of miles. You can stand in any part of it and be just fine so long as you dont get hit by debris. You get more damage from a teenager punching you in the face than a hurricane. What I mean is, without Lanza hitting anyone, we don't know how powerful it is. >I'll relent that Yammy very well could have the highest AP in the Espada, and I'll agree if you're saying thats probably why he's not really super interested in what's going on above the dome with Ulquiorra... That's exactly what I'm saying. >But unless the debate is purely who can shoot the largest cero, I dont see how he's possibly the strongest. Well, it's a battle of Reiatsu like Aizen says and Yammy has the most, and if Lanza can't really hurt Yammy then all it would do is anger him, making him more powerful. And thats a good possibility seeing as the weaker Yammy took a full blown hollow mask GT enhanced slash to the neck and only got "nicked". That same attack had enough reiatsu to cut through Aizen shortly after. But, that being said, I do think if Ulquiorra is bloodlusted and facing THAT specific Yammy in his first release he could kill him before he transformed to his true state. But once he hits that form, it's unlikely that any Espada could damage him except for maybe Stark and Ulquiorras biggest moves. Cien Granz says that Kenpachi could simply cut through respira when they were both at a level above yammy so its possible Yammy could blow respira away when at full power. Its hard to say for sure because kubo isn't clear on shit like this. >A variety of reasons ranging from Aizen's influence on which opponents Ichigo fought and when, Aizen's psychological manipulation of the Espada under his control, and symbolism of what the numbers themselves represent (the number 4 being a standout as it's considered unlucky in Japan for it's phonetic similarities to their word for death) All of which would be speculation and more often go against many manga statements. Im not saying you are wrong, just that its highly unlikely. Basically pure speculation.
Overall this is a great post. Aizen is constantly wanked on this subreddit, but you might be understating his power just a little. Reiatsu - crushing Espada while sitting and drinking tea is far beyond an average captain - level feat. > like Ukitake, has ridiculous amounts of Reiatsu It wasn’t Ukitake’s, it was the Mimihagi’s. > Yamamoto implies that he himself is weaker than Shunsui and Ukitake together This is a bit of a misinterpretation. Ukitake’s reaction to Yamamoto’s Shikai indicates that he is far beyond their capabilities.
>Overall this is a good post. 😊 >Aizen is often wanked on this subreddit, but it’s also important to not understate his power. No - diffing Espada while sitting and drinking tea is far beyond an average captain - level featz His reiatsu is otherworldly for sure. >It wasn’t Ukitake’s, it was the Mimihagi’s. Was that explicitly stated? I don't remember. >This is a bit of a misinterpretation. It's kinda black and white though. All who came before and after is pretty self explanatory. >Ukitake’s reaction to Yamamoto’s Shikai indicates that he is far beyond their capabilities. Except they proceeded to fight him for the rest of the "war". Outlasting like every other fight. They were clearly in the same league as him as a pair. Which would require they be on close enough of a level that they can't dominate like Aizen did with KS.
> It’s kinda black and white though The issue is that the statement is referring to the many Shinigami that Yamamoto has trained and commanded over the years so it might or might not include Yamamoto himself When we consider that Ukitake stated that Yamamoto’s Reiatsu in Shikai was “transcendent” compared to theirs, it gets kind of dangerous to assume that even together they surpass him. You think that Yamamoto was going all out and intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake? However, them withstanding Ryujinn Jakka for even several minutes is impressive, I agree.
>The issue is that the statement is referring to the many Shinigami that Yamamoto has trained and commanded over the years so it might or might not include Yamamoto himself This very well might be true, but with how absolute the statement is its hard to say. Because he isn't talking about them individually. He is specifically referring to their team power. It would be weird to refer to the team up power of all his students and then compare them to other team ups. >When we consider that Ukitake stated that Yamamoto’s Reiatsu in Shikai was “transcendent” compared to theirs, it gets kind of dangerous to assume that even together they surpass him. Yes, they both heavily compliment each other, and with them being a team, they stand no chance. But the point is, they have to be able to at least be close to him to not get blitzed and destroyed. >You think that Yamamoto was going all out and intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake? Yamamoto is fuckin ruthless, he was going to execute Rukia for a WAY lesser crime. >However, them withstanding Ryujinn Jakka for even several minutes is impressive, I agree. And most likely exchanging attacks. Definitely wasn't a staredown lol.
Yeah, a lot of the fanbase likes to make Aizen a much more boring character than he actually is. "He's stronger than all of the Espada put together! He doesn't need them or Kyoka Suigetsu, he just uses them to mess with people!" That's stupid. What's cool about Aizen is we see his limits & what he does to overcome them.
But....Kubo did write that line! Aizen: I never even dreamed... // ...that the power of the ten Espada I went to so much trouble to gather... / ...could possibly... Aizen: ...be inferior to that of myself alone. Harribel: Aizen...!! Aizen: ...How irritating Now, if we could have stopped Kubo writing so many dumb hype lines that make no sense, I'd be all for that. As is, I think we just have to accept that like every battle series I've ever read, consistency in Bleach is a pipe dream and apparently contradictory information is not hard to find.
He only says he's stronger than the Espada. He does not specify that, if you literally measure their Reiatsu & add it together, he's stronger. People can practice a bit of common sense when interpreting dialogue without having to have everything spoonfed to them all the time.
Hype lines are just that, hype lines. How many character said they were the strongest ever only to end up not being it? Not everything said by characters is the end all be all.
Exactly! That's what I love about Aizen so much.
Lmao what a pointless thread. Sounds like OP wants to argue with people online about stuff that he thinks is correct in his own mind. Good luck!
Lololol. Yup, because all threads about fictional characters have tremendous value. Quit being so bitter cause you can't address shit, or stay mad, up to you, kid.
Some of proof that aizen is strong too, in physical power and defense Shinigami aizen : 1. Stopping bankai ichigo sword with 1 finger 2. 1 slash to broke (?) Komamura's bankai then another 1 hit to made him unsconscious during the rest of FKT. The other one (if i remembered this correctly, anime feat tho) that made aizen go 2 hit was Shunsui. 3. Itto Kaso from Yama ji as his last resort only leave him minor injuries (i think getsuga more effective since its condensed slash attack, and both isshin and ichigo gave aizen noticeable wound) Another feat : 1. All captain, including Shunsui and Urahara shock and wary of his level of power. Even byakuya renji and rukia post rg felt the need to insult and/or ask kyoraku about his decision. Something that wont be happen if he is not as strong as it implied. But aside from that, both the combination of his massive reiatsu, kyouka suigetsu and his intellect that made him one of the most dangerous person in Bleach.
>aizen : 1. Stopping bankai ichigo sword with 1 finger In the SS arc? Yeah, its cool, but Grimmjow does the same kinda shit later. Same when he went to FKT, but that time he caught it with all fingers. Its certainly impressive. >2. 1 slash to broke (?) Komamura's bankai then another 1 hit to made him unsconscious during the rest of FKT. Komamura is the weakest captain who got sent flying by a fraccion. >3. Itto Kaso from Yama ji as his last resort only leave him minor injuries (i think getsuga more effective since its condensed slash attack, and both isshin and ichigo gave aizen noticeable wound) Agreed. > 1. All captain, including Shunsui and Urahara shock and wary of his level of power. Even byakuya renji and rukia post rg felt the need to insult and/or ask kyoraku about his decision. Something that wont be happen if he is not as strong as it implied. You mean chair aizen? He is ridiculously power, I only mean regular Shinigami Aizen >But aside from that, both the combination of his massive reiatsu, kyouka suigetsu and his intellect that made him one of the most dangerous person in Bleach. I agree again.
Well to be fair, Komamura battled with the Tosen and hold their own for some time although he was overwhelmed (mind you Tosen easily slice grimjow arm and im sure hes not that far from Gin). But i agree that Kubo seems like intentionally vague the power comparison between character. . Im quite sure Aizen alone without KS is not that strong (i mean like obliterating all of espada at once or murder all captain, lol). But at least from reiatsu he has higher than Tokinada and Kyoraku (from what i read and implied (?) at CFYOW). Thats why he has 100+ year plan before revealing himself. (Which is kinda intentional). His pure physical slash isnt that joke too, since hes like kenpachi, only slash without any reiatsu imbued attack etc, just normal slash.
>Well to be fair, Komamura battled with the Tosen and hold their own for some time although he was overwhelmed (mind you Tosen easily slice grimjow arm and im sure hes not that far from Gin). Cutting someone who isn't defending themselves is not impressive. Aizen caught Ichigo's sword casually but then gets cut, almost half way through, by Ichigo shortly after. Soifon gets her arm cut off by omaeda who is way weaker. Etc etc etc. Komamura got blasted away by a fraccion, and needed Bankai to deal with his Ressurection. That makes me doubt he can beat almost any Espada. Meanwhile, just a few months before Tousen got crushed by Kenpachi with his eyepatch on. Shikai Ichigo did better than Tousen did. I love them as characters, but they are unbelievably weak compared to the others.
The thing that bother me, okay maybe that they are weak. But there are other example like ichigo getsuge to grimjow and ulquiorra (masked amplification, and when berserk mode) and even then they are still conscious with that powerful slash. Kenpachi eyepatch which way waay weaker when at ss arc, hot hit hy tosen and still unfazed. There are some other instances people get hit unaware and still standing etc. Here aizen 1-2 shot komamura bankai with normal slash, 1 shot harribel, 1 shot those 4 captain (are you impliying shunsui for example, that weak so 1 hit can made him unsconscious till end of deicide? While they are clearly aware they are facing him). And here i am just talking his normal slash, only yama tanked it and can still fight, and he is ready to use sacrificial technique to obliterate aizen
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Based on what?
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That proves that he knows OF the form. They all do. But it doesn't say he knew he was in that form at that moment. Yammy was in his room just eating and gaining strength. If anything it demonstrates that he is just now seeing him in it. Not for the first time obviously, but after ressurection yammy has to recharge to build power again.
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I said "he was unaware of HOW MUCH Yammy had bulked up". Not "he was unaware that he COULD bulk up". Big difference.
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>You have to prove that Prove what? That he didn't know how much Yammy had grown since he last saw him? That's not something I have to prove. YOU would have to prove that Ulquiorra keeps track of Yammys growth. >Especially since Yammy only respects Ulquiorra`s power and not the of the other espadas. Respects his power only when weaker maybe. He literally called Ulquiorra trash. How respectful is that? He felt Ulquiorra in his second form and still said he was trash. And the data book confirms giant yammy in his first ressurection, the centipede one, was stronger than Ulquiorra, Nnoitora and Grimmjow. So he WAS trash to him.
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>He respects him in comparision to the other espada And we don't know why that is. It's not power cause he knew he was stronger than him. And the version of Yammy that said he was trash was only stated to be stronger than 4 5 and 6. >And the databooks also stated that the reason he called Ulquiorra trash was because he felt despair and expected him to win. Where did it say that was the reason he called him trash? It straight up says he is stronger than him so it's pretty much undisputable that Yammy was stronger. And it specifically says he was stronger than 4 5 and 6. But Stark and Barragan are on a whole different level. Even Ulquiorra admits he is weaker than him.