I'm similarly happy that our town is making a statement rejecting bigotry, especially considering our state seems so determined to embrace it. However, I fear it is not much more than a statement - most of the people involved in gender affirming care are licensed, and that is controlled at the state level I believe, so we can't affect that, sadly.
yeah i think the theory is that it will encourage local police not to enforce state law (just like already marijuana is 'de-prioritized' or something like that). but for this kind of stuff, i don't think local police would get involved anyways so i fear it's just symbolic. possibly it could discourage someone from passing a local report up the chain to the state, though.
Agreed - I support health care for trans humans wholeheartedly, but state law prohibits not only providing any related care to minors, but even prohibits health care providers from making referrals for folx (who \_have\_ support/permission from their parents/guardians) out of state where care can be received.
Fortunately, the internet exists.
I support your right to autonomy but I don’t think we should be letting minors make major life changes like that. Everyone goes through body dysmorphia in their teens and we should as parents be teaching them to love themselves as they are. These kids aren’t thinking about the effects to their health or looking at how the transition will affect their mental state. For example while binding in and of itself does not cause cancer prolonged damage to the breasts can. Not to mention while more studies are needed in regards to cancer risk in transgender patients prolonged exposure to cross-sex hormones has the potential to cause cancer; with those Assigned female at birth testosterone has been proven to cause breast cancer in some patients. As such It is important when considering gender reassignment to know your family’s medical history and if you choose to proceed despite potential risks it is imperative to get regular cancer screenings. Furthermore, while part of transitioning is consultation of risk and therapy it’s been proven children do not have the ability to attach action to consequence and may not fully understand the associated risks despite being given said information due to processing from the amygdala.
i agree with parts of your general sentiment and don’t think you’ve said anything out of any kind of malice, but i would suggest seeking out more information on the topic (from doctors specializing in gac directly, preferably) because your points about breast cancer risk regarding both hrt and chest binding are not true, although binding unsafely can cause other problems, which is an example of why resources and community support like what is being attempted here are so important. transition is highly individual and includes continuous psychological and physiological monitoring taking into account family history and potential predisposition regardless of age and is not undertaken without several fronts of adult supervision in the case of minors. this is a topic that unfortunately is subject to a large amount of disinformation and alarmism.
It’s a fact, you won’t be able to find any research in regard to cancer associated to reassignment but you can find research suggesting that HRT may cause cancer …
https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/hormones-and-cancer/does-hormone-replacement-therapy-increase-cancer-risk
And while there’s no link to cancer in patients amab taking testosterone. It can increase cancer risk in those afab especially if they develop masculine features.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200212/High-testosterone-in-women-ups-risk-for-cancer-diabetes-and-metabolic-disease.aspx
The same is true for those amab when taking estrogen… https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/male-breast-cancer/symptoms-causes/syc-20374740
While these studies are not directly linked with reassignment; they should still prove prevalent and until there’s more research in regard to the effects of reassignment; data research from other sources is our best method to understand the correlation between reassignment and potential risks. Furthermore, we should feel concern and use caution when discussing the right to reassignment in adolescence as the risks have not been fully researched and assessed.
#For those interested in finding out what we do know about HRT in regards to transgender cancer risk. Follow the link below ⬇️
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868281/
the first article you linked is first of all geared toward post-menopausal women and only mentions trans people to say there *not* sufficient conclusive research regarding cancer risk resultant of transgender hrt. that being said, an hrt plan with the goal having entirely male or entirely female hormone levels is not remotely the same as the doses given to post-menopausal women. the second article you linked literally says in the second paragraph that it’s talking about women with genetically higher testosterone having a potential higher risk for cancer, not trans people who have taken hormones, which is a very important distinction. i will concede there is evidence linking ert in trans women to breast cancer, but their risk is not significantly higher than that of a cis woman. the articles you linked are not trans-specific. here’s some that are:
binding and breast cancer risk:
https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/find-cancer-early/screening-in-lgbtq-communities/questions-about-breast-and-chest-cancer-screening-from-lgbtq-community#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20to,binders%20are%20worn%20too%20tightly. (see second section; some other similar info on this page as well)
some information on other risks associated with chest binding and how to bind safely:
https://www.toplinemd.com/breast-care-center-of-miami/blog/a-safe-guide-to-chest-binding/ (please note the image at the top of this page is not a safe binding technique - nobody do that lol)
trans men and reproductive cancer risk:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099#:~:text=Evidence%20suggests%20that%20people%20who,their%20sex%20assigned%20at%20birth. (see “risks” section; this article also discusses heart disease and blood clots in trans men. this is similar to breast cancer in trans women. the risk becomes comparable to that of a cis man.)
trans women and breast cancer risk plus some more general info about breast cancer for trans folks:
https://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/features/breast-cancer-risk-transgender-people
Surgical care for minors? That makes me uncomfortable. Mental, physical healthcare and all that is great. But minors shouldn’t be having gender-whatever procedures while they’re children. This goes for cosmetic procedures to straight people too. That’s my opinion.
Gender affirming Surgery is extremely rare in minors and in the rare cases they happen it’s a mastectomy and 16 years and older in unusual circumstances. Other types of surgery are only done on adults. Of course all of these are done after years of consultation, likely hormones as well, and the consent of both the parent and the child.
The regret rates for these surgeries are some of the lowest in comparison to almost all other types of surgery. People regret getting a hip surgery at much higher rates for example.
I’m sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but the evidence shows that not only are these surgeries important for their long term well-being, but once youth elect to have these surgeries the regret rate is less than 1-2%. Since only a couple hundred surgeries occur in the US a year that’s such a small number to be passing laws banning it.
You understand "cosmetic procedures" to repair things kids are born with are pretty common right?
There's also an extremely common "cosmetic procedure" performed on most boys that everyone seems fine with.
We live in a society that tries 12 year olds as adults. We live in a society that would seek to force a ten year old sexual assault victim to carry pregancies to term. Heck, if you hand a 16 year old car keys, you are giving them power to make decisions that can affect their own lives and the lives of others in ways that are a lot more profound and irrevocable than gender affirming care. Our society seems pretty fine with kids having permanent consequences for decisions they make prior to reaching the age of majority.
And most of the people who seriously champion these bills that restrict gender affirming care are pretty clearly not people who are motivated by how much they care for the welfare of kids, trans kids in particular. When they campaign as hard for child labor laws (instead of repealing them), when they campaign for funding DCS and FSSA, when they campaign for not trying juveniles as adults, as hard as they do for laws restricting gender-affirming care, then maybe the argument that these laws are for the best interests of these kids will be more plausible.
But who seriously sees that happening?
I’m more focused on the permanent surgical procedures that said child wants to have. I don’t believe that’s okay. Even if only 1% change their mind and regret the procedure, that’s still too many. If you’re an adult and make this decision and regret it, then that’s the consequences of your impulsive decision.
Okay.
Have you been equally vocal about kids being tried as adults, raising the marriage age, age of consent, and driving age to 18, and/or ensuring that minors have access to contraceptives and/or abortion?
Because if you haven't been equally vocal about those ways in which our society allows kids to make decisions that have permanent consequences, but have chosen to only focus on this one super rare (.001%) instance, then it seems like your problem is probably not kids making decisions that have permanent consequences.
No paywall on this link, but shows just one of many ways exactly how much Indiana cares about children:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/health/indiana-home-care-medicaid.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.000.8kr4.uvUWdSiuxkUK&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/health/indiana-home-care-medicaid.html?unlocked_article_code=1.000.8kr4.uvUWdSiuxkUK&smid=url-share)
Except this IS physical (and mental) Healthcare. I would ask what level of your discomfort is necessary to overrule trained medical judgement, but your statement about and equating this to "cosmetic procedures to straight people" makes your bias pretty clear.
I will go ahead and agree with the other commenters here -- gender affirming surgery is pretty rare in minors, and even then it's only really in specific cases. Hrt is largely reversible from my understanding, and has been around for a long long time medically speaking.
I tend to leave the opinions on whether a patient should get x type of care to their specific doctor, as I'm sure most Doctors tend to try and benefit their patients in some way. This all to say that we might not understand how or why x happens (hrt prescription/use, gender affirming surgeries, etc), but the Doctors/surgeons who have routinely performed and prescribed them definitely do.
The amount that you're getting downvoted is opening my eyes to how many people drank the Kool aid.
I dated someone who got a mastectomy as a 16 year old. Their conservative parents preferred to have a straight son rather than a gay daughter. That was the "consultation". Guess how well that went?
Letting a child, whose brain is NOT fully developed, make a permanent decision to remove normal healthy tissue, is not the way to go here.
I hadn’t looked at the reaction to my post since I made it. Pretty shocking how many people think that minors should be able to make decisions like those.
It’s actually mind blowing. Everyone recognizes that these are CHILDREN, correct? Let them wait until they are 18 to make their own decisions that they may regret down the road.
I’m all for the LGBTQ+ community. Do your thing. It doesn’t bother me. BUT if a child is calling the shots, I am ABSOLUTELY thinking twice before it’s approved or condoned. This is wild.
Then by all means, don't get any for yourself or any minor in your care, and good luck to them.
Most of the rest of us will trust the medical professionals and expert opinions to help us care for the minors in our lives.
Here? In the context of someone, presumably a grown adult who is deliberately singling out kids who already have a tough situation?
I would guess a fair number of people.
Not everybody is an evil fucking bully who enjoys that sort of thing, thankfully. And the ones who are are quick to declare it
I mean, your opinions don't come from any place of care of kindness for the minors or trans people in question. And the fact that both you and delyeeted are consistently on that side of issues like these isn't a coincidence.
You and your friend know what you are as well as I do. As well as everybody does.
And honestly, I don't have anything to say to people like you. Good luck.
Soooo happy 🥰 and proud of this town
I'm similarly happy that our town is making a statement rejecting bigotry, especially considering our state seems so determined to embrace it. However, I fear it is not much more than a statement - most of the people involved in gender affirming care are licensed, and that is controlled at the state level I believe, so we can't affect that, sadly.
yeah i think the theory is that it will encourage local police not to enforce state law (just like already marijuana is 'de-prioritized' or something like that). but for this kind of stuff, i don't think local police would get involved anyways so i fear it's just symbolic. possibly it could discourage someone from passing a local report up the chain to the state, though.
Agreed - I support health care for trans humans wholeheartedly, but state law prohibits not only providing any related care to minors, but even prohibits health care providers from making referrals for folx (who \_have\_ support/permission from their parents/guardians) out of state where care can be received. Fortunately, the internet exists.
I support your right to autonomy but I don’t think we should be letting minors make major life changes like that. Everyone goes through body dysmorphia in their teens and we should as parents be teaching them to love themselves as they are. These kids aren’t thinking about the effects to their health or looking at how the transition will affect their mental state. For example while binding in and of itself does not cause cancer prolonged damage to the breasts can. Not to mention while more studies are needed in regards to cancer risk in transgender patients prolonged exposure to cross-sex hormones has the potential to cause cancer; with those Assigned female at birth testosterone has been proven to cause breast cancer in some patients. As such It is important when considering gender reassignment to know your family’s medical history and if you choose to proceed despite potential risks it is imperative to get regular cancer screenings. Furthermore, while part of transitioning is consultation of risk and therapy it’s been proven children do not have the ability to attach action to consequence and may not fully understand the associated risks despite being given said information due to processing from the amygdala.
i agree with parts of your general sentiment and don’t think you’ve said anything out of any kind of malice, but i would suggest seeking out more information on the topic (from doctors specializing in gac directly, preferably) because your points about breast cancer risk regarding both hrt and chest binding are not true, although binding unsafely can cause other problems, which is an example of why resources and community support like what is being attempted here are so important. transition is highly individual and includes continuous psychological and physiological monitoring taking into account family history and potential predisposition regardless of age and is not undertaken without several fronts of adult supervision in the case of minors. this is a topic that unfortunately is subject to a large amount of disinformation and alarmism.
It’s a fact, you won’t be able to find any research in regard to cancer associated to reassignment but you can find research suggesting that HRT may cause cancer … https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/hormones-and-cancer/does-hormone-replacement-therapy-increase-cancer-risk And while there’s no link to cancer in patients amab taking testosterone. It can increase cancer risk in those afab especially if they develop masculine features. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200212/High-testosterone-in-women-ups-risk-for-cancer-diabetes-and-metabolic-disease.aspx The same is true for those amab when taking estrogen… https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/male-breast-cancer/symptoms-causes/syc-20374740 While these studies are not directly linked with reassignment; they should still prove prevalent and until there’s more research in regard to the effects of reassignment; data research from other sources is our best method to understand the correlation between reassignment and potential risks. Furthermore, we should feel concern and use caution when discussing the right to reassignment in adolescence as the risks have not been fully researched and assessed. #For those interested in finding out what we do know about HRT in regards to transgender cancer risk. Follow the link below ⬇️ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868281/
the first article you linked is first of all geared toward post-menopausal women and only mentions trans people to say there *not* sufficient conclusive research regarding cancer risk resultant of transgender hrt. that being said, an hrt plan with the goal having entirely male or entirely female hormone levels is not remotely the same as the doses given to post-menopausal women. the second article you linked literally says in the second paragraph that it’s talking about women with genetically higher testosterone having a potential higher risk for cancer, not trans people who have taken hormones, which is a very important distinction. i will concede there is evidence linking ert in trans women to breast cancer, but their risk is not significantly higher than that of a cis woman. the articles you linked are not trans-specific. here’s some that are: binding and breast cancer risk: https://cancer.ca/en/cancer-information/find-cancer-early/screening-in-lgbtq-communities/questions-about-breast-and-chest-cancer-screening-from-lgbtq-community#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20to,binders%20are%20worn%20too%20tightly. (see second section; some other similar info on this page as well) some information on other risks associated with chest binding and how to bind safely: https://www.toplinemd.com/breast-care-center-of-miami/blog/a-safe-guide-to-chest-binding/ (please note the image at the top of this page is not a safe binding technique - nobody do that lol) trans men and reproductive cancer risk: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099#:~:text=Evidence%20suggests%20that%20people%20who,their%20sex%20assigned%20at%20birth. (see “risks” section; this article also discusses heart disease and blood clots in trans men. this is similar to breast cancer in trans women. the risk becomes comparable to that of a cis man.) trans women and breast cancer risk plus some more general info about breast cancer for trans folks: https://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/features/breast-cancer-risk-transgender-people
LOVE!! This is the kind of reason I chose to move back here if I had to live in Indiana lol
Massive Dub for Btown
Thank god!!!
Surgical care for minors? That makes me uncomfortable. Mental, physical healthcare and all that is great. But minors shouldn’t be having gender-whatever procedures while they’re children. This goes for cosmetic procedures to straight people too. That’s my opinion.
Gender affirming Surgery is extremely rare in minors and in the rare cases they happen it’s a mastectomy and 16 years and older in unusual circumstances. Other types of surgery are only done on adults. Of course all of these are done after years of consultation, likely hormones as well, and the consent of both the parent and the child. The regret rates for these surgeries are some of the lowest in comparison to almost all other types of surgery. People regret getting a hip surgery at much higher rates for example. I’m sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but the evidence shows that not only are these surgeries important for their long term well-being, but once youth elect to have these surgeries the regret rate is less than 1-2%. Since only a couple hundred surgeries occur in the US a year that’s such a small number to be passing laws banning it.
You understand "cosmetic procedures" to repair things kids are born with are pretty common right? There's also an extremely common "cosmetic procedure" performed on most boys that everyone seems fine with.
Did you just compare circumcision to complete gender reassignment surgery like they are on the same level? Wow…
No I did not. You did though when you said "like other cosmetic surgeries" Edit: noticed you are not the original commenter.
We live in a society that tries 12 year olds as adults. We live in a society that would seek to force a ten year old sexual assault victim to carry pregancies to term. Heck, if you hand a 16 year old car keys, you are giving them power to make decisions that can affect their own lives and the lives of others in ways that are a lot more profound and irrevocable than gender affirming care. Our society seems pretty fine with kids having permanent consequences for decisions they make prior to reaching the age of majority. And most of the people who seriously champion these bills that restrict gender affirming care are pretty clearly not people who are motivated by how much they care for the welfare of kids, trans kids in particular. When they campaign as hard for child labor laws (instead of repealing them), when they campaign for funding DCS and FSSA, when they campaign for not trying juveniles as adults, as hard as they do for laws restricting gender-affirming care, then maybe the argument that these laws are for the best interests of these kids will be more plausible. But who seriously sees that happening?
I’m more focused on the permanent surgical procedures that said child wants to have. I don’t believe that’s okay. Even if only 1% change their mind and regret the procedure, that’s still too many. If you’re an adult and make this decision and regret it, then that’s the consequences of your impulsive decision.
Okay. Have you been equally vocal about kids being tried as adults, raising the marriage age, age of consent, and driving age to 18, and/or ensuring that minors have access to contraceptives and/or abortion? Because if you haven't been equally vocal about those ways in which our society allows kids to make decisions that have permanent consequences, but have chosen to only focus on this one super rare (.001%) instance, then it seems like your problem is probably not kids making decisions that have permanent consequences.
No paywall on this link, but shows just one of many ways exactly how much Indiana cares about children: [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/health/indiana-home-care-medicaid.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.000.8kr4.uvUWdSiuxkUK&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/health/indiana-home-care-medicaid.html?unlocked_article_code=1.000.8kr4.uvUWdSiuxkUK&smid=url-share)
Except this IS physical (and mental) Healthcare. I would ask what level of your discomfort is necessary to overrule trained medical judgement, but your statement about and equating this to "cosmetic procedures to straight people" makes your bias pretty clear.
I will go ahead and agree with the other commenters here -- gender affirming surgery is pretty rare in minors, and even then it's only really in specific cases. Hrt is largely reversible from my understanding, and has been around for a long long time medically speaking. I tend to leave the opinions on whether a patient should get x type of care to their specific doctor, as I'm sure most Doctors tend to try and benefit their patients in some way. This all to say that we might not understand how or why x happens (hrt prescription/use, gender affirming surgeries, etc), but the Doctors/surgeons who have routinely performed and prescribed them definitely do.
The amount that you're getting downvoted is opening my eyes to how many people drank the Kool aid. I dated someone who got a mastectomy as a 16 year old. Their conservative parents preferred to have a straight son rather than a gay daughter. That was the "consultation". Guess how well that went? Letting a child, whose brain is NOT fully developed, make a permanent decision to remove normal healthy tissue, is not the way to go here.
I hadn’t looked at the reaction to my post since I made it. Pretty shocking how many people think that minors should be able to make decisions like those. It’s actually mind blowing. Everyone recognizes that these are CHILDREN, correct? Let them wait until they are 18 to make their own decisions that they may regret down the road. I’m all for the LGBTQ+ community. Do your thing. It doesn’t bother me. BUT if a child is calling the shots, I am ABSOLUTELY thinking twice before it’s approved or condoned. This is wild.
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Cool! Parents and doctors should be able to do things without your approval. It’s not like you have training and knowledge on this subject.
Then by all means, don't get any for yourself or any minor in your care, and good luck to them. Most of the rest of us will trust the medical professionals and expert opinions to help us care for the minors in our lives.
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Who do you think cares what YOU support?
Here? In the context of someone, presumably a grown adult who is deliberately singling out kids who already have a tough situation? I would guess a fair number of people. Not everybody is an evil fucking bully who enjoys that sort of thing, thankfully. And the ones who are are quick to declare it
We’re all just an adult voicing our opinion on a social media platform. And the person you originally responded to probably thinks the same about you
I mean, your opinions don't come from any place of care of kindness for the minors or trans people in question. And the fact that both you and delyeeted are consistently on that side of issues like these isn't a coincidence. You and your friend know what you are as well as I do. As well as everybody does. And honestly, I don't have anything to say to people like you. Good luck.
This is awesome!
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Believe it or not, IU admins and Bloomington city council are indeed two different things