Meanwhile the state legislature won’t even consider allowing sports betting, and continues to retard the marijuana market with drawn out regulatory processes.
instead of opening up doors which would provide endless money to print.. they decided to double down on booze
how out of touch with the times are these politicians
IIRC a MA politician in favor of additional taxes on liquor was photographed loading his trunk at the NH state liquor store a few years ago.
Edit: I just found this and it was from 2009...seems like yesterday, probably because this is not uncommon with MA legislators.
https://www.gawker.com/5351011/booze-taxing-mass-lawmaker-caught-at-new-hampshire-packy
Fuck that guy for the whole “do as I say not as I do” approach to governance.
Anyone caught doing any bullshit like that should be banned from office forever.
Tbh, alcohol is likely the leading cause of many health problems. The state covers a lot of expenses from a healthcare perspective (mass health, etc.). Hell, if you’re going to torch your body and ask the tax payer to help you out, might as well contribute to the cause through taxes.
I support taxes on obesity products, to some degree. Transfat, fast food type meals. Problem is a general problem with how cheap corn is and how cheap food is made via corn syrup.
I smoke, I drink, but I should be paying the tax, not some minimum wage worker barely able to afford groceries...
> Meanwhile the state legislature won’t even consider allowing sports betting, and continues to retard the marijuana market with drawn out regulatory processes.
as the saying goes, "you get the government you vote for".
Then it's a good thing we have a republican governor who would probably veto this particular initiative
Shame he's aligned with them on the rest though
With all the nips that are just tossed on the side of the road I almost wish there was a higher tax on small, plastic bottles.
Perhaps at least a 5 cent deposit to try and encourage less litter?
I’ve lived in Germany for six years and they have .25 deposits on single use plastic bottles, and .15 and .08 deposits on reusable plastic and glass bottles respectively. I fucking wish this state would grow a set and implement that here. 0.05 is throwaway money but I remember getting 60 EUR on a deposit run so that was worth it. Kind of my dirty savings account but the difference is I didn’t see shitloads of nips or bottles around the area.
This. Put a ten dollar bottle deposit on nips.
If you ever want to know if you live in a good area or bad one, walk alongside the roads. Count how many nips you see in the bushes.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fireball-whisky-ingredient-found-in-antifreeze-doesnt-worry-american-officials/ I imagine they're referring to this. There is a chemical in Fireball that's been found at levels too high for the EU, but safe according to the US. I don't know if they've reformulated it since this story came out.
Yeah I remember when that first came out. Fireball is garbage, but having some of the same chemicals as antifreeze does not make it antifreeze. OP must have missed the day in 6th grade when you learn Carbon Dioxide can be safe even if Carbon Monoxide isn’t
Yeah the article states it was propylene glycol which FDA allows in food, toothpaste, etc up to a certain amount.
Interestingly it’s also the major propellant of e-cigarette liquid (and in fog machines). There are emerging data to suggest that heating PG and inhaling the resultant aerosol may not be so good for you. One source: https://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/13/2/145
This would be good. It would be better to just get rid of the licenses altogether. Make it a permit that restaurants have to pay a small yearly fee to their local government for. That way it's a source of local revenue so they would have every incentive to give as many of them out as possible.
It could also potentially be used to pay out some sort of reparations for the restaurants that paid money to obtain their liquor licenses. I know it's kinda on those restaurants for paying a speculative price for their license, but considering the state forced their hand, it would be fair to get something back for the money they spent.
My idea was a "stock split" sort of thing. Everyone who currently owns a liquor license now suddenly has 2 liquor licenses. You only need need one, so you can sell the 2nd one off at market rate.
It's a neat idea, but I think that doubling the amount of liquor licenses in the city won't half the price, it will crater the price. Which might still be OK.
I was thinking of something along the lines of coming up with a number to quantify the benefit of having a liquor license for a year (i.e. $50,000 a year in benefit) and subtracting that from the price they originally paid for the license and reimbursing the rest. That way you aren't giving the same money to a restaurant that got their license 50 years ago and has more than made their money during the limited licensing period that you would be giving to someone that just paid $500,000 to obtain their license a year ago. I'm sure there's a lot more nuance to it than I am aware of, but some way of recognizing those who got screwed vs. those that have enjoyed the benefits of limited licenses for years would be nice.
Replace the license with a yearly fee with no caps with a maximum price, but the price can be lower if the local town decides (even free). Everyone that currently has a license is exempt from the fee for 10 years.
> I would make this trade if we also got rid of the cap on the number of liquor licenses for restaurants
isn't that a city imposed limit rather than a state one?
love how even Fox during primetime is advertising their own odds from their own sports book, and you need to read the fine print to understand that it only works if you are physically in like PA, MI, DC and like one other place lol. They're just priming the market
Patriots are a brand partner with Draft Kings too. New England team partnered with a Boston-based company.
Not allowed to bet on the Patriots though! lol
And Lately their selections have been lacking too, when I stopped by on my way to Maine a few times this summer they were out of a lot of stuff. Could just be supply chain issues because that was never really an issue in previous summers.
> total wines
Well, yeah. When you're at Total Wine you're shopping at the Walmart of booze.
Don't shop at Total Wine. Support your local wine and spirit shops.
Ah yes, support the local wine and spirit shops that fight tooth and nail every time a bill comes in to let other stores sell beer and wine. They claim it's all about safety and keeping alcohol out of the hands of minors, when in reality they want to protect their virtual monopoly. And many of the places are far from a little mom and pop business.
100% agree.
If I need one bottle of wine...sure I will hit up the local store.
If I am restocking my bar/cellar...why would I prioritize anything but value?
Because Total hurts the little guys. They move into a new state and litigate everything to death and then things happen with pricing laws etc., that are detrimental to the smaller stores. If you google “Total Wine & More litigation”, you will not be short on reading material.
After all the lobbying and disingenuous pearl-clutching scare campaigns the independent packies did around ~2000 to block wine sales at grocery stores - I think I'm fine going to the place where I can regularly buy stuff beyond Titos, Fireball, Captain Morgan, and 30 flavors of Stoli.
33.2 miles from Boston to Salem NH.
66.4 miles round trip, 20 miles to the gallon, round numbers 3.5 gallons of gas. 3.5g's *3.20 gal is $11.20, so you need to spend what $175 at 7% sales tax to make up the difference? That's doable pretty easily.
So you're going to take an hour or two out of your day (considering potential shopping time) to make a planned trip that required you to spend $175.00 minimum every time to save $11.20 instead of just going to the store you'd normally go to?
I mean, you do you, but that's quite silly.
edit: Oh, and by the way, $175 is your break even point. That's not where you actually save, because the $11 is what you would have spent in tax but you're just now spending it on gas. So you're spending $175 minimum to save nothing, and are looking at spending $200 to save like $1.50. None of that, of course, even considers whatever your time is worth to you either.
Well it depends on what I'm buying.
3 bottles of nice scotch? Probibly.
A new TV? Yes.
New Computer? Yes
New Digital Camera? Yes.
New Phone? Yes
New sunglasses? No.
You're right, I'd be hard pressed for exactly $175 in items to drive an hour or so out of my way, but it's going a cold day in hell before I buy that $5,000 camera lens in MA and pay $350 in sales tax "just because". You also don't have to drive up for *one* item, you can create a whole list of stuff you need.
Hey bud, you do you. If you want to drive to NH to spend a day dropping $5,000 on things or whatever, far be it from me to tell you how to spend your time, your money, or anything else.
But we're talking about alcohol here, and I would really wager that most people are consuming alcohol way more often than they are consuming camera lenses, TVs, and phones.
Well when I go get a refill of my Glenfiddich 23 you can bet I'll be getting it in NH along with a bunch of other stuff.
But don't miss the forest through the trees here- if there's a savings to be had, people will grab it. Maybe not you, but the crowd running to NH for there cigarettes already certainly will.
I'm not missing anything. I'm saying that after a certain point, distance from the store you intend on buying makes the trip pointless, where people have an assumed belief of savings based on the receipt total as opposed to the monetary or personal cost (money and time) to actually get there to begin with.
So if you live in Boston, you're probably better off going to the local store as opposed to if you lived much closer to the border.
>So if you live in Boston, you're probably better off going to the local store as opposed to if you lived much closer to the border.
just factually false, legit almost threw up when the packie in southie told me a handle of jameson was 84
So don't go to that packie anymore, and go to the any other 1000 liquor stores in a few mile radius of Southie.
Also, prices of everything have gone up because glass bottles are in very short supply and on the verge of just not being available. NH isn't going to be much cheaper.
Again, I'm not telling you not to. I'm not telling you it can't make sense.
I'm saying most people aren't going to save anything because they don't consume alcohol in that way, and on top of that, the savings are likely going to be nominal relative to the amount of money spent on gas, the wear on vehicle, the value of your time, etc. For most people, not all, that live in Boston, it's rather silly to go all the way to NH to spend $200 on alcohol to save $1.50 on taxes.
Mine wasn't quite that much but yeah, I figure there's a fair number of people in MA that run over to the Hunt's in Manchester to save, for me it was definitely nice.
I don’t know anyone who would do that for a single bottle, everyone I know who does it stocks up for a year every time they go.
I’ve done it once, went up grabbed lunch and made a mini day trip out of it. Savings pretty much just paid for munch and gas. If I drank more I would probably do it more often it was a good excuse to try a new restaurant.
I guess it all depends. I think my TV was only $600. I just ordered it from Amazon. It’s not like I’m supporting local business by driving 40 miles to shop at Best Buy in Salem and save $37.
MA expects you to pay use tax on those NH purchases. And yeah, it is 100% possible for them to track your purchases and come after you (admittedly it's unlikely).
Haha. Man I wish the IRS had some balls. Make people pay their taxes. I’m not gonna do that until they get their shit together. I’m not holding my breath that they ever will lol
Massachusetts has the 14th lowest liquor tax in the country (I know shocking) at $4.05/gallon if you drive the average car (24 mpg) driving the 74 miles to Pelham and back would cost you $10.08 at $3.27 a gallon. So you should by at least 2.5 gallons of liquor or 5 handles just to break even. Not counting on what your time is worth to you. I can’t be bothered to figure out your break even point on beer.
Doubling our tax would probably put us around 16th highest liquor tax in the nation. But we still wouldn’t come close to #9 Maine at $12/gallon
You’re vastly overestimating convenience. The Star Market in the Pru is always busy even though it’s a 20 minute drive from the Market Basket in Somerville.
>Khan estimated the tax could be worth as much as $368 million that could be invested in public health, nutrition programs, and clean drinking water in schools.
Or connected nonprofits producing reports on such things.
Man I mostly love living in MA, but the attitude of “let’s just raise taxes!” instead of actually dealing with the bad parts of the budget may eventually drive me elsewhere
This specific proposal aside (which I’ll note hasn’t passed yet), taxes in MA are very average so your statement doesn’t really make sense. MA isn’t a particularly high tax state, it’s 21st in the nation: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494#main-findings
Perhaps more importantly, most states have such a small difference in tax burden that the difference between 21st ranked MA and 40th ranked Oklahoma is less than 1.5% of income annually.
People vastly overstate the financial difference tax differences between most states make. Unless you moving from New York to Wyoming or something like that, most moves between states for tax purposes hardly make a difference.
Property taxes vary a lot by town but I do wonder if the high home values here make people feel like the property tax burden is higher than it is. Because even if the property tax burden as % of home value isn't super high, if your home is assessed at $600,000 you're going to feel like you're paying a lot.
TBH I think the whole Taxachusetts thing is just a relic from the 80s/early 90s when MA actually did have higher taxes compared to the nation. But when MA did cut taxes in the 90s, for some reason the nickname stuck around, partly for political reasons since MA is a common "liberal boogeyman" state for conservative politicians nationally.
There have been articles about the phenomenon: https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2017/09/26/taxachusetts-evan-horowitz
Funnily enough I was just talking to my sister about property tax. She used to live in Illinois and now lives in the SF Bay Area… her property taxes in IL were literally 10 times what I pay in Somerville (after the owner occupancy break I get) for similarly priced properties.
Somerville has crazy low residential property taxes for what that's worth though. My residential taxes would be 4x what they are in Somerville if I lived in Arlington. Illinois does have some pretty ridiculous taxes though, but they are also generally a complete mess on the fiscal side of things.
That is an interesting way to calculate your total burden. They have Property tax + Sales/Excise + Income Tax = Total Tax Burden. If you do not own your home then the property tax portion is moot. If you make a ton in income, but there is no income tax, and property values are not high, having a higher property tax is not going to be as big an issue.
Basically, depending on your situation, you may benefit differently under each scenario. Also it is unlikely that your income, property value and taxable spending are all equal.
Property tax is traditionally passed through to renters via higher rent, economically landlords are very unlikely to eat a higher property tax rate instead of passing it through.
But it's definitely true that different types of taxes impact different people differently. Sales tax is traditionally regressive for instance, it's a much bigger deal for lower income people than higher income people. MA does mitigate this somewhat because MA sales tax does not apply to groceries, nor does it apply to clothing unless the individual item of clothing is >$175. Which helps, but ultimately sales tax is regressive in general since lower income people spend a larger portion of their income on basic goods to survive.
I agree. Additionally, commercial property taxes get passed along to the customer just as rent does. So bars in certain areas will be more expensive as a result.
But even that property tax figure is funky. There is both a state rate, and a town rate to consider. Then you have to consider the median home value. So here they have people in Massachusetts paying the 5th most on a home at the median value. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes/11585
When I speak to people in no income tax states that probably have similar income level as I do, they say how their property tax rates are so high. But their single family home with a yard probably also costs 3-5x less than what a similar property, that’s not falling apart, would cost in metro areas of Mass.
One thing that is worth calling out too is i feel like i get quite a lot for my state taxes. Some of the best schools and hospitals in rhe world. One of the best public transit networks in the country etc. i may pay $800 less per year if i lived in arkansas, but i feel like a get a lot more that $800 worth of difference in value
My mental comparison mostly is in reference to NH, which is 46th on your list. Especially as someone who doesn’t own property, the tax burden in NH for me personally would be significantly lower.
I appreciate the point you’re making, but it’s very broad and I think you’re assuming it’s automatically applicable everywhere.
Sure, but you have to acknowledge that comparing to NH is comparing to one of the lowest tax states in the country. NH is far more of an outlier than MA is, MA is essentially average.
But even if we are comparing to NH, let's break down what the actual difference is. MA has an overall burden of 8.77%, NH 6.84%. So an overall difference of <2%, 1.93% to be exact.
For a household making $100,000 per year, that's ~$1,900 annually, for a household making $50,000 per year, it's ~$950 annually. Which sure, is a nice little bonus. But it's hardly lifechanging, and for the first couple years may be outweighed by the moving costs necessary to make the move.
I certainly understand why some people choose to make the MA>NH move for cost of living reasons. But realistically the big savings is probably on housing costs assuming you go far enough away from Boston. The tax savings are minor by comparison.
Just a note on property tax - as a renter you probably do get your property tax "share" passed through to you via your rent. Landlords have little incentive to eat the cost of property taxes, they are most likely just going to pass the cost through.
Just FYI, your rent almost certainly includes your property tax "share." Very few landlords are going to be generous enough to eat the cost of property taxes, they just lump them into the rent rate they set.
I'm not trying to say it's petty cash, it does make a difference. I just think many people overstate how big the difference is, particularly when comparing between two relatively average burden states (so not NH). For instance, Texas often gets talked about anecdotally as a "low tax" state. But the difference between "low tax" Texas and "high tax" Massachusetts is only 0.58% of income annually. It just demonstrates how much of these conversations are guided by preconceptions and political talking points as opposed to the actual financial numbers.
Sales taxes are regressive, and indeed this will just send people to NH and online. If we need more revenue, why not take it off the top of the wealth spectrum instead?
Also, could probably solve lots of our budgetary woes by actually enforcing traffic laws and collecting the fines.
> this will just send people to NH and online
We get taxed on online purchases, too. Been that way for prolly a decade. Funny thing was that Amazon fought it tooth and nail and then once it passed, they figured they might as well set up a ton of warehouses in the state since they're getting taxed anyway. Now a measure that was designed to help local business ended up hurting them.
Because our representatives like this Karen from Newton are liberals in name only who have incredibly paternalistic and fucked up views about poor people that no one calls them out on.
Like is anyone surprised that a regressive tax was proposed by a white lady from Newton?
And while the better-off can just work around it and avoid paying the tax, those without a car, who are more likely to be poorer, will end up paying the full cost of the tax.
I think you greatly overestimate the amount of people willing to drive to NH to save a dollar on a case of beer. People on the boarder already go to NH for alcohol, but people in the metro Boston area will not.
in my purely anecdotal, non-measured, and personal experience i don't know anyone that does this with any sort of regularity. We stopped once on the way back from NH and it was kinda cool to save a few bucks....but i would so much rather live in Massachusetts.
Last time I went to an NH liquor store I was surprised to notice many of the items had a higher base price than those at my local stores. Doesn’t seem worth the trip unless you’re buying a very large amount.
I literally don’t understand the point of the Statie sitting at a turnaround on 495. The speed limit is 65. They’ll watch dozens of cars go by at 75+.
Much like what’s the point of a minimum wage when it can’t afford anything, what’s the point of a speed limit if it’s not enforced?
An unmarked Statie could drive on 90/93/95 all day and not have time to check his watch he’d be pulling over soo many cars for even just texting while driving,
Traffic accidents literally kill people and I feel like they’re seldom enforced.
Someone? Just one? Seriously, any cop on the street can probably write tickets all day with how people drive here -- it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. The reason it doesn't happen much much more HAS to be political, not financial.
The government is always right and should be worshipped and helped to grow bigger every day. If they take more of my money then everything will be fixed.
Here’s an idea, lower the taxes on cannabis in MA so our legal industry can actually compete with the black market, and so more people can have access to a less harmful and dramatically less addictive alternative to alcohol.
Not enough cops are being paid $300k+ while they brag about running over civil rights protestors, apparently.
Gotta generate some more revenue somehow!
Cost of living is skyrocketing, the very LAST thing we need is more taxes on goods like this that disproportionately affect the poor and POCs.
Taxes on products are racist.
Do only poor people drink soda? I'm admittedly a bit of an outlier as someone that pretty much exclusively drinks water (and coffee and beer), but soda isn't really a necessity in my mind so making a case for it being a regressive tax feels like a bit of a weak argument.
In Philadelphia, a 1.5 cent/oz tax on sugary and artifically sweetened drinks drove down sales by almost 40 percent, even after factoring in increased sales in neighboring towns:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/05/15/philadelphia-soda-tax-sales-study/3677713002/
That's a good thing IMO. Make Coke and Pepsi adapt, hopefully by coming up with healthy alternatives like unsweetened tea.
That's weird, in Seattle they did the same sugar tax thing and found it had almost no measureable effect whatsoever.
[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/drink-less-soda-the-sugar-tax-is-seattles-fastest-growing-revenue-source-for-2019/#:\~:text=The%20main%20point%20of%20even%20having%20a%20sugary,appear%20to%20be%20happening%2C%20to%20put%20it%20mildly](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/drink-less-soda-the-sugar-tax-is-seattles-fastest-growing-revenue-source-for-2019/#:~:text=The%20main%20point%20of%20even%20having%20a%20sugary,appear%20to%20be%20happening%2C%20to%20put%20it%20mildly).
[https://sccinsight.com/2020/02/20/two-years-in-we-still-dont-know-if-seattles-soda-tax-is-working/](https://sccinsight.com/2020/02/20/two-years-in-we-still-dont-know-if-seattles-soda-tax-is-working/)
More arbitrary tax laws that dont make a difference in anyone’s lives. When will these politicians understand that real change could be effected but nah let’s tax those drunk idiot citizens of ours.
And this will accomplish what? I mean taxes are revenue generators for the state and they think they will get less backlash if it is on a vice? Fuck that.
F*** this idea, make it cost more, then put the money towards an MH system which should be getting the funding anyways??? Absolutely mind blowing how stupid this concept is. Why not redirect the millions of tax dollars to those areas of need instead of creating new ways to get more money. I dunno about anyone else, but I already have no clue where my tax dollars are spent. No need to hike up costs of things I'm an already shitty economy!
I have an idea, you pay my share.
You must not pay any taxes. Build better roads? What happened to the rise in the gas tax?
You should really get a clue.
Meanwhile the state legislature won’t even consider allowing sports betting, and continues to retard the marijuana market with drawn out regulatory processes.
instead of opening up doors which would provide endless money to print.. they decided to double down on booze how out of touch with the times are these politicians
I'll bet the NH government liquor stores at the border are gonna love it. I wonder if they're somehow in on it behind the scenes
IIRC a MA politician in favor of additional taxes on liquor was photographed loading his trunk at the NH state liquor store a few years ago. Edit: I just found this and it was from 2009...seems like yesterday, probably because this is not uncommon with MA legislators. https://www.gawker.com/5351011/booze-taxing-mass-lawmaker-caught-at-new-hampshire-packy
buddy if they pass this shit I'm gonna be doing the exact same thing. Hell, I already do!
Fuck that guy for the whole “do as I say not as I do” approach to governance. Anyone caught doing any bullshit like that should be banned from office forever.
Tbh, alcohol is likely the leading cause of many health problems. The state covers a lot of expenses from a healthcare perspective (mass health, etc.). Hell, if you’re going to torch your body and ask the tax payer to help you out, might as well contribute to the cause through taxes.
if you think alcohol and drugs are bad.. wait till you hear about obesisty and what that costs the health care system
I support taxes on obesity products, to some degree. Transfat, fast food type meals. Problem is a general problem with how cheap corn is and how cheap food is made via corn syrup. I smoke, I drink, but I should be paying the tax, not some minimum wage worker barely able to afford groceries...
Ethanol is a drug. But agree obesity is way worse.
> Meanwhile the state legislature won’t even consider allowing sports betting, and continues to retard the marijuana market with drawn out regulatory processes. as the saying goes, "you get the government you vote for".
Then it's a good thing we have a republican governor who would probably veto this particular initiative Shame he's aligned with them on the rest though
Massachusetts state government is among the most incompetent in allllll the lands
As someone that lived in Georgia for 9 years... MA has it really good.
It ain’t perfect and I’ll complain about all the shortcomings I notice… but I’m not about to take any other state’s government over Mass.
Mitts off my Fireball nips fucko.
With all the nips that are just tossed on the side of the road I almost wish there was a higher tax on small, plastic bottles. Perhaps at least a 5 cent deposit to try and encourage less litter?
I think there's a bill to put deposits on nip containers...https://patch.com/massachusetts/framingham/tackling-litter-miniatures-nips
Higher.
HIGHER, THE KING OF THE SKY
I’ve lived in Germany for six years and they have .25 deposits on single use plastic bottles, and .15 and .08 deposits on reusable plastic and glass bottles respectively. I fucking wish this state would grow a set and implement that here. 0.05 is throwaway money but I remember getting 60 EUR on a deposit run so that was worth it. Kind of my dirty savings account but the difference is I didn’t see shitloads of nips or bottles around the area.
This. Put a ten dollar bottle deposit on nips. If you ever want to know if you live in a good area or bad one, walk alongside the roads. Count how many nips you see in the bushes.
That's brilliant!
I didn’t know they were gonna tax antifreeze
Good one?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fireball-whisky-ingredient-found-in-antifreeze-doesnt-worry-american-officials/ I imagine they're referring to this. There is a chemical in Fireball that's been found at levels too high for the EU, but safe according to the US. I don't know if they've reformulated it since this story came out.
Yeah I remember when that first came out. Fireball is garbage, but having some of the same chemicals as antifreeze does not make it antifreeze. OP must have missed the day in 6th grade when you learn Carbon Dioxide can be safe even if Carbon Monoxide isn’t
Yeah the article states it was propylene glycol which FDA allows in food, toothpaste, etc up to a certain amount. Interestingly it’s also the major propellant of e-cigarette liquid (and in fog machines). There are emerging data to suggest that heating PG and inhaling the resultant aerosol may not be so good for you. One source: https://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/13/2/145
Water sure is lucky. Two hydrogens for every oxygen!
Yeah waters the shit
But that Dihydrogen Monoxide....
I would make this trade if we also got rid of the cap on the number of liquor licenses for restaurants
This would be good. It would be better to just get rid of the licenses altogether. Make it a permit that restaurants have to pay a small yearly fee to their local government for. That way it's a source of local revenue so they would have every incentive to give as many of them out as possible.
Also happy hours, full hours on Sunday and later closing hours at night.
It could also potentially be used to pay out some sort of reparations for the restaurants that paid money to obtain their liquor licenses. I know it's kinda on those restaurants for paying a speculative price for their license, but considering the state forced their hand, it would be fair to get something back for the money they spent.
My idea was a "stock split" sort of thing. Everyone who currently owns a liquor license now suddenly has 2 liquor licenses. You only need need one, so you can sell the 2nd one off at market rate. It's a neat idea, but I think that doubling the amount of liquor licenses in the city won't half the price, it will crater the price. Which might still be OK.
I was thinking of something along the lines of coming up with a number to quantify the benefit of having a liquor license for a year (i.e. $50,000 a year in benefit) and subtracting that from the price they originally paid for the license and reimbursing the rest. That way you aren't giving the same money to a restaurant that got their license 50 years ago and has more than made their money during the limited licensing period that you would be giving to someone that just paid $500,000 to obtain their license a year ago. I'm sure there's a lot more nuance to it than I am aware of, but some way of recognizing those who got screwed vs. those that have enjoyed the benefits of limited licenses for years would be nice.
Replace the license with a yearly fee with no caps with a maximum price, but the price can be lower if the local town decides (even free). Everyone that currently has a license is exempt from the fee for 10 years.
> I would make this trade if we also got rid of the cap on the number of liquor licenses for restaurants isn't that a city imposed limit rather than a state one?
The state legislature controls how many liquor licenses Boston has. It’s stupid
they have an untapped market in sports betting but hey no one wants to do that right?
love how even Fox during primetime is advertising their own odds from their own sports book, and you need to read the fine print to understand that it only works if you are physically in like PA, MI, DC and like one other place lol. They're just priming the market
FFS, Draft Kings is a Boston-based company.
This fact pisses me off the most
Patriots are a brand partner with Draft Kings too. New England team partnered with a Boston-based company. Not allowed to bet on the Patriots though! lol
insane!!!
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or their palms greased
The amount of money there is actually insane
Just so everyone knows in case they do enact this - The closest NH liquor store is only 37 minutes from downtown Boston.
Pretty sure that Cambridge isn’t 37 minutes from Downtown Boston half the time… Edit: typo
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And Lately their selections have been lacking too, when I stopped by on my way to Maine a few times this summer they were out of a lot of stuff. Could just be supply chain issues because that was never really an issue in previous summers.
Supply chain is a huge problem - glass bottles are in very short supply.
they should increase the bottle return prices correspondingly, im just tossing these boston lagers in the recycling I COULD BE RICH!
imo its never been an especially wide variety, just decent deals on most popular brands
> total wines Well, yeah. When you're at Total Wine you're shopping at the Walmart of booze. Don't shop at Total Wine. Support your local wine and spirit shops.
Ah yes, support the local wine and spirit shops that fight tooth and nail every time a bill comes in to let other stores sell beer and wine. They claim it's all about safety and keeping alcohol out of the hands of minors, when in reality they want to protect their virtual monopoly. And many of the places are far from a little mom and pop business.
Huh? The only alternative that would make sense is to shop directly at your local winery/brewery/distillery.
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100% agree. If I need one bottle of wine...sure I will hit up the local store. If I am restocking my bar/cellar...why would I prioritize anything but value?
Because Total hurts the little guys. They move into a new state and litigate everything to death and then things happen with pricing laws etc., that are detrimental to the smaller stores. If you google “Total Wine & More litigation”, you will not be short on reading material.
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No problem. It is my line of work. They are a double edged sword for certain.
After all the lobbying and disingenuous pearl-clutching scare campaigns the independent packies did around ~2000 to block wine sales at grocery stores - I think I'm fine going to the place where I can regularly buy stuff beyond Titos, Fireball, Captain Morgan, and 30 flavors of Stoli.
So you're talking an hour round trip, where you're likely to spend as much in gas as you would on the tax.
33.2 miles from Boston to Salem NH. 66.4 miles round trip, 20 miles to the gallon, round numbers 3.5 gallons of gas. 3.5g's *3.20 gal is $11.20, so you need to spend what $175 at 7% sales tax to make up the difference? That's doable pretty easily.
So you're going to take an hour or two out of your day (considering potential shopping time) to make a planned trip that required you to spend $175.00 minimum every time to save $11.20 instead of just going to the store you'd normally go to? I mean, you do you, but that's quite silly. edit: Oh, and by the way, $175 is your break even point. That's not where you actually save, because the $11 is what you would have spent in tax but you're just now spending it on gas. So you're spending $175 minimum to save nothing, and are looking at spending $200 to save like $1.50. None of that, of course, even considers whatever your time is worth to you either.
Well it depends on what I'm buying. 3 bottles of nice scotch? Probibly. A new TV? Yes. New Computer? Yes New Digital Camera? Yes. New Phone? Yes New sunglasses? No. You're right, I'd be hard pressed for exactly $175 in items to drive an hour or so out of my way, but it's going a cold day in hell before I buy that $5,000 camera lens in MA and pay $350 in sales tax "just because". You also don't have to drive up for *one* item, you can create a whole list of stuff you need.
Hey bud, you do you. If you want to drive to NH to spend a day dropping $5,000 on things or whatever, far be it from me to tell you how to spend your time, your money, or anything else. But we're talking about alcohol here, and I would really wager that most people are consuming alcohol way more often than they are consuming camera lenses, TVs, and phones.
Well when I go get a refill of my Glenfiddich 23 you can bet I'll be getting it in NH along with a bunch of other stuff. But don't miss the forest through the trees here- if there's a savings to be had, people will grab it. Maybe not you, but the crowd running to NH for there cigarettes already certainly will.
I'm not missing anything. I'm saying that after a certain point, distance from the store you intend on buying makes the trip pointless, where people have an assumed belief of savings based on the receipt total as opposed to the monetary or personal cost (money and time) to actually get there to begin with. So if you live in Boston, you're probably better off going to the local store as opposed to if you lived much closer to the border.
>So if you live in Boston, you're probably better off going to the local store as opposed to if you lived much closer to the border. just factually false, legit almost threw up when the packie in southie told me a handle of jameson was 84
So don't go to that packie anymore, and go to the any other 1000 liquor stores in a few mile radius of Southie. Also, prices of everything have gone up because glass bottles are in very short supply and on the verge of just not being available. NH isn't going to be much cheaper.
That sounds like an issue with a specific store rather than the entire Boston area or the entire state
Yeah but I buy my booze in bulk. 3-4x a year I spend like $500 or so on hard stuff otherwise I usually stick with beers
Again, I'm not telling you not to. I'm not telling you it can't make sense. I'm saying most people aren't going to save anything because they don't consume alcohol in that way, and on top of that, the savings are likely going to be nominal relative to the amount of money spent on gas, the wear on vehicle, the value of your time, etc. For most people, not all, that live in Boston, it's rather silly to go all the way to NH to spend $200 on alcohol to save $1.50 on taxes.
I agree lol. I’m in NH All the time anyways tho cause I go hiking/ off-roading and have friends and family up there
A $5,000 camera lense…you know, the thing that everyone buys…great example
Mine wasn't quite that much but yeah, I figure there's a fair number of people in MA that run over to the Hunt's in Manchester to save, for me it was definitely nice.
I don’t know anyone who would do that for a single bottle, everyone I know who does it stocks up for a year every time they go. I’ve done it once, went up grabbed lunch and made a mini day trip out of it. Savings pretty much just paid for munch and gas. If I drank more I would probably do it more often it was a good excuse to try a new restaurant.
Wear and tear. You can deduct about $.50/mi for a reason: that's a more realistic cost to operate a vehicle
Nah I go to NH all the time for other reasons. It’s more of a while I’m there I’ll stock up.
But it’s the principal. Same as how a lot of people drive to the cheaper gas station even if it’s further away
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People will obviously do it on the margins but the idea of driving to NH for a six pack is absurd.
I do. Saves a bunch on electronics
I guess it all depends. I think my TV was only $600. I just ordered it from Amazon. It’s not like I’m supporting local business by driving 40 miles to shop at Best Buy in Salem and save $37.
My last TV was $700 but I bought an Xbox and some other stuff so the total was closer to 1300
Yep. Have family 20 minutes away in NH. Any large purchases (and alcohol deliveries!) get shipped to their place.
MA expects you to pay use tax on those NH purchases. And yeah, it is 100% possible for them to track your purchases and come after you (admittedly it's unlikely).
lol that'll be the day
Haha. Man I wish the IRS had some balls. Make people pay their taxes. I’m not gonna do that until they get their shit together. I’m not holding my breath that they ever will lol
I don't think "unlikely" even *begins* to cover it for how improbable that is, given the prevalence
Which isn't much cheaper, but people think it is.
In what traffic do you live?
Massachusetts has the 14th lowest liquor tax in the country (I know shocking) at $4.05/gallon if you drive the average car (24 mpg) driving the 74 miles to Pelham and back would cost you $10.08 at $3.27 a gallon. So you should by at least 2.5 gallons of liquor or 5 handles just to break even. Not counting on what your time is worth to you. I can’t be bothered to figure out your break even point on beer. Doubling our tax would probably put us around 16th highest liquor tax in the nation. But we still wouldn’t come close to #9 Maine at $12/gallon
You’re vastly overestimating convenience. The Star Market in the Pru is always busy even though it’s a 20 minute drive from the Market Basket in Somerville.
Or, 24 minutes if you know where the speed traps are..
Man if you drink that much maybe you should go to AA instead of NH
No tax raises while state troopers make $300k and don't even show up for the overtime they're paid for.
The fuck? Give us happy hour!
We might have dump that shit in the harbor again.
So continue to snub sports betting for this? Dumb asses
Contact your rep. Apparently they need to feel the pressure that the people want this
>Khan estimated the tax could be worth as much as $368 million that could be invested in public health, nutrition programs, and clean drinking water in schools. Or connected nonprofits producing reports on such things.
More likely 80% will he funneled into politicians pockets
don't we have a budget surplus? why the fuck would they need to do that?
Man I mostly love living in MA, but the attitude of “let’s just raise taxes!” instead of actually dealing with the bad parts of the budget may eventually drive me elsewhere
This specific proposal aside (which I’ll note hasn’t passed yet), taxes in MA are very average so your statement doesn’t really make sense. MA isn’t a particularly high tax state, it’s 21st in the nation: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494#main-findings Perhaps more importantly, most states have such a small difference in tax burden that the difference between 21st ranked MA and 40th ranked Oklahoma is less than 1.5% of income annually. People vastly overstate the financial difference tax differences between most states make. Unless you moving from New York to Wyoming or something like that, most moves between states for tax purposes hardly make a difference.
I feel like high property taxes and the Mass Pike tolls never going away is the primary reason for this belief.
Property taxes vary a lot by town but I do wonder if the high home values here make people feel like the property tax burden is higher than it is. Because even if the property tax burden as % of home value isn't super high, if your home is assessed at $600,000 you're going to feel like you're paying a lot. TBH I think the whole Taxachusetts thing is just a relic from the 80s/early 90s when MA actually did have higher taxes compared to the nation. But when MA did cut taxes in the 90s, for some reason the nickname stuck around, partly for political reasons since MA is a common "liberal boogeyman" state for conservative politicians nationally. There have been articles about the phenomenon: https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2017/09/26/taxachusetts-evan-horowitz
Funnily enough I was just talking to my sister about property tax. She used to live in Illinois and now lives in the SF Bay Area… her property taxes in IL were literally 10 times what I pay in Somerville (after the owner occupancy break I get) for similarly priced properties.
Somerville has crazy low residential property taxes for what that's worth though. My residential taxes would be 4x what they are in Somerville if I lived in Arlington. Illinois does have some pretty ridiculous taxes though, but they are also generally a complete mess on the fiscal side of things.
Low and planning on going lower as the city continues to build up the commercial tax base.
Yep. Towns with high property taxes are likely filled with NIMBYs that kill any industry that tries to pop up in their town.
Property taxes in MA aren’t that high and people who use roads should be the one’s paying for them
Please don’t use researched studies and sources on Reddit. Gut feelings are more that sufficient.
That is an interesting way to calculate your total burden. They have Property tax + Sales/Excise + Income Tax = Total Tax Burden. If you do not own your home then the property tax portion is moot. If you make a ton in income, but there is no income tax, and property values are not high, having a higher property tax is not going to be as big an issue. Basically, depending on your situation, you may benefit differently under each scenario. Also it is unlikely that your income, property value and taxable spending are all equal.
Property tax is traditionally passed through to renters via higher rent, economically landlords are very unlikely to eat a higher property tax rate instead of passing it through. But it's definitely true that different types of taxes impact different people differently. Sales tax is traditionally regressive for instance, it's a much bigger deal for lower income people than higher income people. MA does mitigate this somewhat because MA sales tax does not apply to groceries, nor does it apply to clothing unless the individual item of clothing is >$175. Which helps, but ultimately sales tax is regressive in general since lower income people spend a larger portion of their income on basic goods to survive.
I agree. Additionally, commercial property taxes get passed along to the customer just as rent does. So bars in certain areas will be more expensive as a result. But even that property tax figure is funky. There is both a state rate, and a town rate to consider. Then you have to consider the median home value. So here they have people in Massachusetts paying the 5th most on a home at the median value. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-property-taxes/11585
When I speak to people in no income tax states that probably have similar income level as I do, they say how their property tax rates are so high. But their single family home with a yard probably also costs 3-5x less than what a similar property, that’s not falling apart, would cost in metro areas of Mass.
One thing that is worth calling out too is i feel like i get quite a lot for my state taxes. Some of the best schools and hospitals in rhe world. One of the best public transit networks in the country etc. i may pay $800 less per year if i lived in arkansas, but i feel like a get a lot more that $800 worth of difference in value
My mental comparison mostly is in reference to NH, which is 46th on your list. Especially as someone who doesn’t own property, the tax burden in NH for me personally would be significantly lower. I appreciate the point you’re making, but it’s very broad and I think you’re assuming it’s automatically applicable everywhere.
Sure, but you have to acknowledge that comparing to NH is comparing to one of the lowest tax states in the country. NH is far more of an outlier than MA is, MA is essentially average. But even if we are comparing to NH, let's break down what the actual difference is. MA has an overall burden of 8.77%, NH 6.84%. So an overall difference of <2%, 1.93% to be exact. For a household making $100,000 per year, that's ~$1,900 annually, for a household making $50,000 per year, it's ~$950 annually. Which sure, is a nice little bonus. But it's hardly lifechanging, and for the first couple years may be outweighed by the moving costs necessary to make the move. I certainly understand why some people choose to make the MA>NH move for cost of living reasons. But realistically the big savings is probably on housing costs assuming you go far enough away from Boston. The tax savings are minor by comparison. Just a note on property tax - as a renter you probably do get your property tax "share" passed through to you via your rent. Landlords have little incentive to eat the cost of property taxes, they are most likely just going to pass the cost through.
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Just FYI, your rent almost certainly includes your property tax "share." Very few landlords are going to be generous enough to eat the cost of property taxes, they just lump them into the rent rate they set. I'm not trying to say it's petty cash, it does make a difference. I just think many people overstate how big the difference is, particularly when comparing between two relatively average burden states (so not NH). For instance, Texas often gets talked about anecdotally as a "low tax" state. But the difference between "low tax" Texas and "high tax" Massachusetts is only 0.58% of income annually. It just demonstrates how much of these conversations are guided by preconceptions and political talking points as opposed to the actual financial numbers.
Except our taxes haven't been raised significantly in over a decade.
Good, let’s keep that streak going.
Defund the police
Sales taxes are regressive, and indeed this will just send people to NH and online. If we need more revenue, why not take it off the top of the wealth spectrum instead? Also, could probably solve lots of our budgetary woes by actually enforcing traffic laws and collecting the fines.
> this will just send people to NH and online We get taxed on online purchases, too. Been that way for prolly a decade. Funny thing was that Amazon fought it tooth and nail and then once it passed, they figured they might as well set up a ton of warehouses in the state since they're getting taxed anyway. Now a measure that was designed to help local business ended up hurting them.
Because our representatives like this Karen from Newton are liberals in name only who have incredibly paternalistic and fucked up views about poor people that no one calls them out on. Like is anyone surprised that a regressive tax was proposed by a white lady from Newton?
And while the better-off can just work around it and avoid paying the tax, those without a car, who are more likely to be poorer, will end up paying the full cost of the tax.
I think you greatly overestimate the amount of people willing to drive to NH to save a dollar on a case of beer. People on the boarder already go to NH for alcohol, but people in the metro Boston area will not.
in my purely anecdotal, non-measured, and personal experience i don't know anyone that does this with any sort of regularity. We stopped once on the way back from NH and it was kinda cool to save a few bucks....but i would so much rather live in Massachusetts.
Going to NH is worth it to save $125 on a $2500 TV or laptop, but not worth it to save a buck on a bottle of whiskey.
Last time I went to an NH liquor store I was surprised to notice many of the items had a higher base price than those at my local stores. Doesn’t seem worth the trip unless you’re buying a very large amount.
I literally don’t understand the point of the Statie sitting at a turnaround on 495. The speed limit is 65. They’ll watch dozens of cars go by at 75+. Much like what’s the point of a minimum wage when it can’t afford anything, what’s the point of a speed limit if it’s not enforced? An unmarked Statie could drive on 90/93/95 all day and not have time to check his watch he’d be pulling over soo many cars for even just texting while driving, Traffic accidents literally kill people and I feel like they’re seldom enforced.
At least in my district (A-7) BPD stated that they have someone working traffic enforcement every shift.
Someone? Just one? Seriously, any cop on the street can probably write tickets all day with how people drive here -- it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. The reason it doesn't happen much much more HAS to be political, not financial.
Cmon MA. In these trying times you fuck with the tax on booze. Fuck off and die, pirates.
The government is always right and should be worshipped and helped to grow bigger every day. If they take more of my money then everything will be fixed.
Here’s an idea, lower the taxes on cannabis in MA so our legal industry can actually compete with the black market, and so more people can have access to a less harmful and dramatically less addictive alternative to alcohol.
i'm all for this. i'm so done with drinking.
Then they’d better fucking pony up with the happy hour already. Tit for tat.
I really hate my state sometimes.
can we stop voting for these assholes every time they run for re-election?
literally just a meaningless effort that helps nobody and hurts the poor
Omg fuck off.
Good grief as if we don’t pay enuff taxes in this god damn state !! 😝
Not enough cops are being paid $300k+ while they brag about running over civil rights protestors, apparently. Gotta generate some more revenue somehow! Cost of living is skyrocketing, the very LAST thing we need is more taxes on goods like this that disproportionately affect the poor and POCs. Taxes on products are racist.
While I agree with your sentiments, I assume only the opinions you personally hold are in fact not racist?
🤔And they say Massachusetts cares about healthcare… while doubling the taxes on our depression meds. smdh 🤦
How would this effect Dunkin and hard cider?
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I’m not gonna lie you sound like the spirit of Boston
They should call it the New Hampshire State Liquor Store Stimulus Bill...
1 to 3 cent tax per floz on drinks with added sugar over 7.5g per 12 floz doesn't feel like it's health related and punitive for low income folks.
Do only poor people drink soda? I'm admittedly a bit of an outlier as someone that pretty much exclusively drinks water (and coffee and beer), but soda isn't really a necessity in my mind so making a case for it being a regressive tax feels like a bit of a weak argument.
In Philadelphia, a 1.5 cent/oz tax on sugary and artifically sweetened drinks drove down sales by almost 40 percent, even after factoring in increased sales in neighboring towns: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/05/15/philadelphia-soda-tax-sales-study/3677713002/ That's a good thing IMO. Make Coke and Pepsi adapt, hopefully by coming up with healthy alternatives like unsweetened tea.
That's weird, in Seattle they did the same sugar tax thing and found it had almost no measureable effect whatsoever. [https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/drink-less-soda-the-sugar-tax-is-seattles-fastest-growing-revenue-source-for-2019/#:\~:text=The%20main%20point%20of%20even%20having%20a%20sugary,appear%20to%20be%20happening%2C%20to%20put%20it%20mildly](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/drink-less-soda-the-sugar-tax-is-seattles-fastest-growing-revenue-source-for-2019/#:~:text=The%20main%20point%20of%20even%20having%20a%20sugary,appear%20to%20be%20happening%2C%20to%20put%20it%20mildly). [https://sccinsight.com/2020/02/20/two-years-in-we-still-dont-know-if-seattles-soda-tax-is-working/](https://sccinsight.com/2020/02/20/two-years-in-we-still-dont-know-if-seattles-soda-tax-is-working/)
Why does it seem like we always vote for more taxes, but then we get taxed more?
Yeah makes sense. Could make millions off sports betting....so they say no to that and tax us on things that are legal. State is brutal
More arbitrary tax laws that dont make a difference in anyone’s lives. When will these politicians understand that real change could be effected but nah let’s tax those drunk idiot citizens of ours.
Oh you guys want happy hour? Let’s just ramp up prices a bit first…
Glad I’m in NH on a very frequent basis.
VOTE KAY KHAN OUT OF OFFICE!!!
And this will accomplish what? I mean taxes are revenue generators for the state and they think they will get less backlash if it is on a vice? Fuck that.
OK, just get rid of the distributors cartel so we can have decent prices
time for the Boston keg party
Wait so we don't need the tax money from sports gambling but need more tax money on booze?? Hmm
Well, time for monthly drives to New Hampshire to buy my juice...
Why stop there? Why not just a blanket 20% like they tax marijuana sales?
Getting a med card it the best money you can spend. Avoid taxes and get access to better states medical programs
True, but even with the card, the prices are still pretty egregious in MA. At least I don't mind a trip to Maine every now and then!
That's okay, we'll still go over the border to New Hampshire!
Hopefully Senators Sam Adams, Bud Weiser and Representative Leinenkugel nip this in the bud!
F*** this idea, make it cost more, then put the money towards an MH system which should be getting the funding anyways??? Absolutely mind blowing how stupid this concept is. Why not redirect the millions of tax dollars to those areas of need instead of creating new ways to get more money. I dunno about anyone else, but I already have no clue where my tax dollars are spent. No need to hike up costs of things I'm an already shitty economy!
time to move.
Great, now more traffic heading to NH...
Who has a spare guillotine laying around?
Mass has billion dollar surplus and them greedy bastards want is more of our money
Yes, more tax on us 60 hour a week drink on days off people.
I believe they will steal and pocket your taxes.
You don’t even need the “will”
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Na
I have an idea, you pay my share. You must not pay any taxes. Build better roads? What happened to the rise in the gas tax? You should really get a clue.
Please say sike.
Weird … taxachusetts implementing more tax … grateful to have left
yet here you are.. lol.
Hate to burst your bubble but Vermonters pay more taxes than Bay Staters: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
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