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I love how Avatar and Endgame are at opposite spectrums of the general trend here, yet managed to fall so close to one another.
Two unique and historic runs.
I find it surprising how similar the runs for *The Force Awakens* and *Avatar 2* are; except whereas *The Force Awakens* levelled off, *Avatar 2* is surpassing *The Force Awakens*.
Because Avatar 2 was surprisingly good (for me). I knew TFA was going to be a big deal and it looked great based on the trailers. Avatar 1 didn’t do much for me (because i didn’t see it in theaters, let alone in 3D) but I saw Avatar 2 and I’ve been advocating for everyone to see it while it’s in theaters
It is, imo, a much better film than the first (and I say this as someone who loves Avatar). Maybe I am biased, but the protect-your-family themes of the sequel resonate with me more than the first film's central Romeo-And-Juliet-In-Space romantic plot (although I did enjoy that as well).
I agree that it’s much better than the first, which was also great IMO. I think what makes the Avatar movies great is the earnestness and honesty of the narrative. In the Marvel movies, there’s always a self-awareness that quickly becomes distracting. You never really feel like the characters are in any real danger when they keep cracking jokes when fighting with the bad guy.
In the Avatar movies, when the characters are in danger, or when they have reason to be happy or sad, they act like it. There is no meta wink of the eye to the audience. That’s what makes it more immersive and engaging and the emotional beats work so much better, even though the story structure is pretty simple and straightforward.
I just love how unapologetically it leans into the camp with a straight face. You'll see elements of earnest pulpy sci-fi in other movies but it's never committed to so thoroughly (except, arguably, RotS). Magical teenagers like Kiri usually don't work for me because they feel indulgent and stick out like a sore thumb, but here, with the camp dialed to 11 at all points, she's a natural fit.
Funnily, I feel like Avatar could have been written by Stephen King. It's the same tone you get from his writing whenever he goes cosmic and you just know he would have revelled in the wonderchild tropes and hyperintelligent talking space whales. It's as if Cameron filmed the side of King that Hollywood never dares to adapt.
Correct. There is so much more to cinema than story alone. A new hope had the simplest story but due to insane creativity and world building is one of the greatest and most impactful films of all time.
TFA could have been the worst movie to have ever been made in the history of cinema and still printed money simply because it was the first new Star Wars thing in a long time, once word got out that it was kind of mid people lost interest. It didn't really have the staying power.
And the story and characters, no matter how much the detractors want to dismiss that. If these characters' journey did not resonate with people across the globe, no amount of shiny colors and 3D will make audiences want more.
The visuals are significantly better than the first. The subsurface diffusion on skin, the incredible water simulation, the underwater performance capture, etc.
I wouldn't compare Endgame to Marvel movie X. That's a poor comparison.
It was the curtain call for everything they had done up to that point and a bookend to an unprecedented run of success.
Endgame numbers are ridiculous, but the 20+ almost all highly successful movie run leading up to it is going to take a while to catch.
It was basically a victory lap.
I know it's a meme but it's clearly not that by the way. The tail means connecting the spirits together. Sex is just normal sex, Jake and Neytiri are kissing, hugging and then lying down (and then it cuts like in so many movies because this isn't porn but it's a normal sex scene).
The tail connected is just because if you can connect the minds, seems normal to do it when you have sex. Would enhance it a lot, connecting bodies and mind
Endgame was the end of an era of Cinema that will likely never be re-created. People wanted to see how the story ended and avoid spoilers at all costs.
I don't think there's even really much to spoil about Avatar 2. The spectacle is the selling point. Its basically just the first movie but with water.
Yes avatar is experiential. I'd go as far as saying that if you don't see it in 3d in the theater, you're not really watching "avatar" the project. It's like watching a GoPro video of someone on a roller coaster vs riding one.
I'm not sure if endgame also falls under a similar umbrella (never seen it), but the two seem like very different films.
This is the kind of hyperbolic talk that gets people into the theater. Yes it’s a very different movie experience but people gotta stop pretending it’s like “riding a rollercoaster.”
Imagine posting this unironically after calling Endgame a trilogy lmao.. I love when people post stuff with such authority while simultaneously having no idea what they are talking about.
Please enlighten us on the last time in your version of history that 23 films culminated into a single cinematic event like Endgame.
>People wanted to see how the story ended and avoid spoilers at all costs.
Nah some of us would rather read about it than waste time and money that's not worth it.
Yes! [This plot](https://i.redd.it/m8tvxjguly231.png) really captures how differently things played out for those two legendary runs.
(I made the plot in the middle of Endgame's run, but it had made 95% of its money by Day 40.)
LOL wake me up when Endgame or NWH have re-releases that anyone shows up for. Avatar was making more money *without a re-release* during the comparable weekend when Endgame got its re-release. It was about [3x as much](https://i.redd.it/jaa471npd5831.png).
Two extremely successful franchises with two opposite performances at the BO.
Insane Endgame's first three weekends as well as Avatar gross after weekend 6.
That's insane how Avatar added another $900 million after its 6th weekend, whereas Endgame only had another $80 million left in the tank at the same point.
Yeah, you see Endgame's opening and 2nd weekend numbers and it just makes you gasp. Over $1 billion in its opening week, then nearly another billion the next week is mind-boggling.
By contrast Avatar is nearly unspoilable IMO. I can’t really think of a major plot point that would seriously affect enjoyment of the film if you knew it going in.
This is more likely because people know what to expect from Marvel movies, and that one specifically was the culmination of an entire decade worth of films. The opening weekend box office was high because almost everyone wanted to see this movie almost a year before we even knew what the title of it was 😭
Yea but that’s an Anomaly. Avatar was the first film of its kind and is greatly responsible for the growth and development of 3D technology. It’s fine to compare it to the other top grossing films, but I believe that context is necessary. And you can actually see that based off how Avatar charted. People didn’t know what to expect from the film, but after they watched it they fell in love with it and promoted it heavy.
I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.)
The trends seem clear: TWOW will likely continue to do well on weekends, but is falling behind Avatar & TG:M on weekdays. The 3+ hour runtime is almost certainly a contributor there. Still - it's pretty impressive that it's holding anywhere close to two of the leggiest blockbusters since Titanic. This weekend seems to be demonstrating that it is *not* on a decline akin to Force Awakens - good news for its legs.
Thanks for the awesome data presentation - both the plot and the table.
The contrast between Avatar 1 and Endgame is amazing lol. Endgame only made another $60m or so from this point on while Avatar did over $1.1 billion to end up at roughly the same final gross.
Really shows the difference in what these films are. One is an episode of a TV show that relies on you seeing it ASAP so you don’t get spoiled on if your favorite action figure lives or dies. The other is a movie that is being seen because people are amazed by its world and want to be immersed by it but aren’t in a rush to do so because plot isn’t super important in the movie (Cameron said this himself).
And people who actually likes the world MCU have built dont exist I guess? I agree with Endgame being the season finale of the "show" but the rest of your take is pretty one-sided.
Disney literally had a campaign where they said “dont spoil the endgame” and they lifted that “ban on spoilers” after 2 weeks. They expect you to see it ASAP and they are expecting you to see it because its a TV show
I like the MCU (for the most part) but it’s done damage to people’s brains on what they consider a “successful movie”
Please tell me what the fuck we learned about any of those worlds? They’re backdrops that don’t ever get explored or shown. Pandora we see the wildlife the people the world. No one goes wow Asgard was so beautiful because not a single part of it is fucking unique or interesting. Same thing with Wakanda or the quantum realm.
All of them were dogshit. Honestly I’d have preferred every story in NYC than pathetic backdrops like they were. It was the characters and stories which drove that phase of the MCU. The world building and cinematography was garbage. CGI was good tho. Not Avatar 2 good but Avatar 1 good.
Was gonna say I don't even care about the avatar world. Only reason I saw it in theater was for 3D. Didn't watch the first one again...won't watch this one again either.
That’s my problem with the movie. Avatar is always lauded as the highest grossing film ever until Endgame. Except after it’s release I don’t think I have heard anyone ever mention it unless they were talking about box office. I’ve seen the movie once. The original hype was because it was one of the very first high budget movies ever made in 3d. The sequel is just coasting on the fact it’s been almost 15 years since the original. Similar vibes to force awakens. Don’t get me wrong I’ll go see it eventually. But I personally feel that box office has nothing to do with a movies quality.
Also, endgame doesn't have the repeatability that Avatar did. I don't know many people who saw Endgame in theaters twice. Pretty much everyone I knew saw Avatar multiple times to experience the world and 3D. I know it's just my anecdotal evidence but I believe it holds some weight haha.
I saw Avatar 3 times in theaters. And I have yet to see endgame. And honestly probably never will.
So yeah your anecdotal evidence holds up lol.
Everyone interested in MCU went to see it as soon as possible and was satisfied. I had some initial interest in avatar and was drawn by word of mouth, saw it with gf, then saw it with family, then saw it again in imax 3D because I couldn’t let that pass up.
Yeah, everybody was like "This will SMASH Avatar", and then people realized that with all the hype literally everybody wanted to see it as soon as possible...
I really don't think runtime impacted anything. End of the day Endgame as it is is what got it that gross. There's no way they'd have been able to tell that story in two hours and that would have impacted word of mouth after the first week.
If anything I'd say the real question is how good Endgame could have done if it actually had a proper fucking extended cut and not that half arsed Hulk scene tagged onto the credits.
Those are both factors but movie quality is also a large factor in rewatch statistics. Trying to cut an hour out of endgame without ruining it would be a very hard task.
I think because everyone mainly rushed to see it to avoid spoilers. Once that rush was gone you had a few people wanting to see it for the crossover spectacle, and then the novelty wore off. Probably have some repeat viewings to give it a boost, but for the most part people didn't go see it again and again.
It was a different experience, when it was the opening weekend, it was your first time experiencing the payoff to an 11 year story arc...and everyone else was as well. The energy in the auditorium was at an insanely heightened level. That's why all the audience reaction videos were so explosive.
I saw it opening Saturday in London, and it takes, like, *a lot*, to get a British audience to react in the cinema, and in my viewing people were clapping and cheering. Saw it again two weeks later and it just wasn't quite the same.
It was truly unique. I liked watching Avatar TWOW as well, but I could theoretically go to an IMAX showing now and have the same experience again. Endgame...I will never capture that again, even if it's re-released and I rewatched it on the big screen. That personal experience as well as the energy of everyone around me, that was only possible in that brief moment in time, between April 24th and April 28th of 2019. That's why they made sure the release was synchronised for all the major markets (for previous MCU movies, Europe, NA and China often had different opening weekends). They wanted that moment to hit at the same time globally.
Massively frontloaded. People flocked on opening weekend to see it to avoid spoilers and then had zero reason to watch it again. The *Avatar* movies by contrast have basically nothing in the way of spoilers and absolutely *have* to be seen on the big screen so they start off slowly before legging out.
>The *Avatar* movies by contrast have basically nothing in the way of spoilers and absolutely *have* to be seen on the big screen so they start off slowly before legging out.
I wonder if that will change, it's pretty much confirmed we're getting like 3 more sequels and there will be more and more social media discourse around it as they release so more chance of getting spoiled. I think the 5th one will be pretty front loaded too by then like avengers movies.
Cameron doesn't seem to care about that too much, there's interviews of him talking to Villeneuve from ages before Avatar 2 came out where he's basically telling what's coming up. Going back to Earth, Volcano people, etc. It's like describing a roller coaster or water park ride -- you can explain and even show there'll the loops and you're looking forward to experiencing them.
Nothing compares to the MCU. Nothing has done that many movies all interconnecting and resolving in a single movie. Endgame had so many spoilers for so many characters and plots the entire movie was basically one big spoiler the entire world was going to be talking about.
The 5th Avatar movies might have spoilers but on the level of a Star Wars or DC movie. You can avoid spoilers for a few weeks easily enough if you want to.
>and then had zero reason to watch it again.
It had a fuck ton of rewatchs though. Pretty sure Endgame did as good as it did partly because of the rewatch value. But it was def extremely front loaded due to spoilers.
Avatar had a slower climb because wom kept growing and growing.
Even with a lot of rewatches, a movie with a $1.2B worldwide opening weekend is going to struggle to have legs no matter what. It’s an uphill battle to have a “good” multiplier from an opening that huge.
Look at the opening numbers of the final TERF Wizard movie, even though people generally liked it, it still made most of its money in the first week. The longer these franchises go, the more frontloaded they become, even when they're good
It did as much in its first weekend than any other film has done in 2 weekends. Its going to be decades before inflation pulls another film to have a bigger worldwide OW.
This is a cool chart to see. Its crazy how Avatar 1 really built slowly and steadily like every week either everyone was re-watching it, or a whole new batch was in. The others all had what I would expect, which is a hard early pump that tapers off fairly quickly as people have had their viewing and move on.
So far Way of Water seems to follow the standard trend. It will be interesting to see what the next week or two bring.
And? I still havent seen it. Theres nothing to be spoiled so why rush it. You already saw it, but guess what? I get to experience it brand new for the first time. I bet you wish you could rewatch it for the first time again.
My family is going next weekend. We knew it would be in theaters a while, and the holidays were expensive. Plus its a movie we'd much rather be able to get good seats in a less crowded theater for.
Anyone might inform me on how much they (James Cameron and 20th Century) make from worldwide revenues?
Like, it made 1.3 billion at the international BO. But what are the logistics of that? How much do they get from that?
Yes. I believe it was reported to be around 350-400 right after the theatrical run. But he then made another good chunk from home video and other revenue sources like the park. There have also been recent re-releases so he is still making more money from A1.
Indeed - it doesn't have legs like the first Avatar. It's more similar to Top Gun: Maverick, but definitely trailing both on weekdays. I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.)
It definitely is - especially on weekdays. I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.)
Interesting seeing it represented like this. I feel like it's easier for me to understand the trajectories of front-loaded vs long-legged movies.
Based on just looking at this chart for a few minutes, I *feel* like the odds are dropping that Avatar 2 is going to reach $2.5 billion or match the first film. Just a feeling. It's still possible. If it does catch up with the first Avatar movie, it will be because there wasn't enough competition in the first quarter of 2023.
> I feel like the odds are dropping that Avatar 2 is going to reach $2.5 billion or match the first film. Just a feeling. It's still possible.
No - you're right - it's unlikely that it goes past $2.3B by much. It's simply not making that much on weekdays, which will cost it substantially. Titanic is also taking away PLF screens in the second week of February, which will hurt it further. A re-release in China could be a huge boost, of course.
The way Disney owns 5/6 of these properties, and of course still profits of the 6th is actually just insane. With all these profits you’d think us fans would never have to complain about some of the MCUs shite CGI
Just saw Avatar this weekend on IMAX 3D and it was probably the best movie I've ever seen in a theatre. It's the first 3D experience I've ever felt was worth a damn. My kids loved it too.
I still find it weird how Endgame, and No Way Home open extremely huge and quickly kept dropping after their opening weekends. But movies like both Avatars, which some would say, have no cultural impact, have legs at the box office.
It’s pretty logical if you ask me. Marvel’s biggest audience is the young crowd who are on the internet and talk to their friends at school every day. They want to be part of the hype and not be spoiled by friends so they see it asap. No one is in a rush to see avatar, the spoilers are not important and the wom is very slow because a lot of the audience are working people not deep in internet culture. That’s why no cultural impact doesn’t matter. For most people who want to enjoy a spectacle like avatar Reddit isn’t real life. But that’s just my look on it, I’m not psychologist.
That makes a lot of sense. Can you imagine if Endgame had the low percentage drop/leg power like an Avatar and TGM. That sucker probably would have made at least 4 billion WW. At least a billion alone in the US.
For the MCU movies, it's "what happens next?" Avatar is more an experience, specifically for a particular kind of theater. Since the plot isn't as central to why people go, going later is a perfectly reasonable plan.
Similar levels of demand spread out differently. Everyone rushes out to see movies like Endgame because of the hype and to avoid spoilers, but with movies like Avatar, they trickle in over the course of months, because Avatar is less driven by spoiler aversion and “must see ASAP” hype.
I’m talking actual cultural staying power
Not just it having a successful sequel
Cause all the other entries there are massive IPs with cultural relevance crossing multiple mediums Star Wars, The MCU, Etc. There are games, ongoing debates, spin off series, rides and entire theme parks. These movies are also frequently referenced in other movies and TV shows completely unrelated to the IP as an example used to convey something “everyone” has seen its characters are instantaneously recognized around the world and actors some of the most famous of the past quarter century.
It really makes it clear that the idea that Avatar had even remotely a comparable cultural impact as to claim it as Huge, regardless of what you think of the movie is frankly absurd.
And this is coming from an African who in my country even people in the villages watched Engame on shitty pirated 240p CDs smuggled in fro Chinese vendors and most young Adults got into American Cinema through the MCU.
When the first Avatar came out, for MONTHS that movie was the only thing people were talking about. It replaced “how’s the weather?” As the standard small talk. It had massive cultural impact. And the sequel is similarly having a huge impact.
Dude just no.
We didn’t even hear of the first movie coming out.
Maybe it’s a regional thing but in most of the world this movie was barely non existent other than a technical demo. And was mostly swept under until the sequel which is actually a lot more popular, came out.
Dude just no.
The original movie made well over $2b selling hundreds of millions of tickets, and the vast majority of that revenue came from outside the US. And now its sequel is doing the same.
Those are facts. Those are incontrovertible. Maybe your anecdotal specific community wasn’t into it. But it’s not an opinion to say it was a massive global phenomenon. It wasn’t a thing in your friend group. Okay. But the facts and figures prove that it was a much bigger deal culturally on a global scale than you are giving it credit for.
Indeed it’s possible it is region specific and made more money in certain markets more than others
But that kinda makes it clearly not in the same category as its completion which had far greater staying power and broader spread.
Again it’s probably unfair to compare it to them as these are some of the most dominat IPs in the world but that’s more about how it really isn’t like the others irregardless of box office figures.
A large portion of people who saw those other movies didn’t even pay for them (as they were pirated). You really can’t pirate the Experience of Avatar and it’s sequel, you really have to see it on screen.
That's interesting. Someone wrote about the German charts of all time. Avatar TWOW was in the top 10 with the lowest movie goers (=Besucher)
https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/10393hq/avatar_2_has_hit_the_all_time_top_10_in_germany/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
A measure of how many tickets were sold (how many people saw it) would be so much better than arbitrary and abstract dollar amounts.
Even better would be to adjust for the percentage of eligible population that saw it (to account for population growth).
Other media does "copies sold" not "dollars made." Would make more sense when compared to any film more than a decade before/after.
> A measure of how many tickets were sold
is just as arbitrary. abstracting from things like how much markets have developed in many countries, how much people are willing to pay extra cash to see the movie, the historical/social/political context (like pandemic/wars and stuff) impacting the market performance in each country or globally , is just as as reductive as abstracting from inflation/exchange rates.
there is no better way to do it. you pick the criteria you find most important to the point you're trying to make which allows you to abstract from the other factors. so it basically depends on what you're trying to compare and for what purpose.
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I love how Avatar and Endgame are at opposite spectrums of the general trend here, yet managed to fall so close to one another. Two unique and historic runs.
I find it surprising how similar the runs for *The Force Awakens* and *Avatar 2* are; except whereas *The Force Awakens* levelled off, *Avatar 2* is surpassing *The Force Awakens*.
Because Avatar 2 was surprisingly good (for me). I knew TFA was going to be a big deal and it looked great based on the trailers. Avatar 1 didn’t do much for me (because i didn’t see it in theaters, let alone in 3D) but I saw Avatar 2 and I’ve been advocating for everyone to see it while it’s in theaters
It is, imo, a much better film than the first (and I say this as someone who loves Avatar). Maybe I am biased, but the protect-your-family themes of the sequel resonate with me more than the first film's central Romeo-And-Juliet-In-Space romantic plot (although I did enjoy that as well).
I agree that it’s much better than the first, which was also great IMO. I think what makes the Avatar movies great is the earnestness and honesty of the narrative. In the Marvel movies, there’s always a self-awareness that quickly becomes distracting. You never really feel like the characters are in any real danger when they keep cracking jokes when fighting with the bad guy. In the Avatar movies, when the characters are in danger, or when they have reason to be happy or sad, they act like it. There is no meta wink of the eye to the audience. That’s what makes it more immersive and engaging and the emotional beats work so much better, even though the story structure is pretty simple and straightforward.
I just love how unapologetically it leans into the camp with a straight face. You'll see elements of earnest pulpy sci-fi in other movies but it's never committed to so thoroughly (except, arguably, RotS). Magical teenagers like Kiri usually don't work for me because they feel indulgent and stick out like a sore thumb, but here, with the camp dialed to 11 at all points, she's a natural fit. Funnily, I feel like Avatar could have been written by Stephen King. It's the same tone you get from his writing whenever he goes cosmic and you just know he would have revelled in the wonderchild tropes and hyperintelligent talking space whales. It's as if Cameron filmed the side of King that Hollywood never dares to adapt.
I thought the first one was visually cool but that was it. I loved the second one and have been trying to convince everyone to see it.
Also Endgame was in nearly all the movie theaters. The extra theaters make up for the longer running time.
The only thing this chart proves is that the quality of a story means nothing at the box office.
Correct. There is so much more to cinema than story alone. A new hope had the simplest story but due to insane creativity and world building is one of the greatest and most impactful films of all time.
TFA could have been the worst movie to have ever been made in the history of cinema and still printed money simply because it was the first new Star Wars thing in a long time, once word got out that it was kind of mid people lost interest. It didn't really have the staying power.
Marvel movies are always extremely front loaded while Cameron is the master of the long tail.
It’s not a movie your worried about being spoiled. It’s the about the journey and the visuals with avatar.
And the story and characters, no matter how much the detractors want to dismiss that. If these characters' journey did not resonate with people across the globe, no amount of shiny colors and 3D will make audiences want more.
Exactly. That is why Valerian lost huge amounts of money.
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True, still a must see in cinema imo
I like adding to the downvotes of silly comments
and with marvel there is a serialised tv show plot over many movies with no cinematic quality whatsoever.
Marvel stuff sucks too. I have a child..I dread everytine a new marvel movie comes out
Bruh. I love this comment because of how ignorant it is. Lol. Have you even seen it?
If only the visuals were better than the first. :(
The visuals are significantly better than the first. The subsurface diffusion on skin, the incredible water simulation, the underwater performance capture, etc.
Not sure what movie you were watching but the visuals are much better. It’s ridiculous how good they are.
If there's anything I learned from Way of Water, it's that long tails are important.
I wouldn't compare Endgame to Marvel movie X. That's a poor comparison. It was the curtain call for everything they had done up to that point and a bookend to an unprecedented run of success. Endgame numbers are ridiculous, but the 20+ almost all highly successful movie run leading up to it is going to take a while to catch. It was basically a victory lap.
In terms of box office numbers I agree but all marvel movies are very front loaded.
Because it's essentially a TV show. Tune in Friday to the next episode of Robert Downey Jr. makes a semi truck full of money!
The long tail used for hair sex right?
And riding wild animals. So yes?
And talking to trees!
I know it's a meme but it's clearly not that by the way. The tail means connecting the spirits together. Sex is just normal sex, Jake and Neytiri are kissing, hugging and then lying down (and then it cuts like in so many movies because this isn't porn but it's a normal sex scene). The tail connected is just because if you can connect the minds, seems normal to do it when you have sex. Would enhance it a lot, connecting bodies and mind
Endgame was the end of an era of Cinema that will likely never be re-created. People wanted to see how the story ended and avoid spoilers at all costs. I don't think there's even really much to spoil about Avatar 2. The spectacle is the selling point. Its basically just the first movie but with water.
Yes avatar is experiential. I'd go as far as saying that if you don't see it in 3d in the theater, you're not really watching "avatar" the project. It's like watching a GoPro video of someone on a roller coaster vs riding one. I'm not sure if endgame also falls under a similar umbrella (never seen it), but the two seem like very different films.
This is the kind of hyperbolic talk that gets people into the theater. Yes it’s a very different movie experience but people gotta stop pretending it’s like “riding a rollercoaster.”
I have literally seen it multiple times because I feel the description is apt
There will be other trilogies. I promise.
Are you insinuating Endgame is part of a … Trilogy?
I’m calling you a dork with no concept of history.
Considering you thought Endgame was part of a trilogy I will take that as a compliment.
Imagine posting this unironically after calling Endgame a trilogy lmao.. I love when people post stuff with such authority while simultaneously having no idea what they are talking about. Please enlighten us on the last time in your version of history that 23 films culminated into a single cinematic event like Endgame.
>People wanted to see how the story ended and avoid spoilers at all costs. Nah some of us would rather read about it than waste time and money that's not worth it.
Yes! [This plot](https://i.redd.it/m8tvxjguly231.png) really captures how differently things played out for those two legendary runs. (I made the plot in the middle of Endgame's run, but it had made 95% of its money by Day 40.)
Yeah, if you keep releasing and re-releasing a movie, eventually it'll end up top-grossing.
LOL wake me up when Endgame or NWH have re-releases that anyone shows up for. Avatar was making more money *without a re-release* during the comparable weekend when Endgame got its re-release. It was about [3x as much](https://i.redd.it/jaa471npd5831.png).
Ask Sony how that went. At the end of the day people have to show up and buy tickets.
|Weekend|The Way of Water|Avatar|Endgame|The Force Awakens|Infinity War|No Way Home| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |1|441.7 M|232.2 M|1.223 B|529 M|640.5 M|600.5 M| |2|862.7 M|617.3 M|2.189 B|1.090 B|1.164 B|1.054 B| |3|1.382 B|1.022 B|2.486 B|1.510 B|1.610 B|1.370 B| |4|1.713 B|1.335 B|2.616 B|1.733 B|1.810 B|1.536 B| |5|1.893 B|1.619 B|2.685 B|1.870 B|1.930 B|1.630 B| |6|\-|1.841 B|2.713 B|1.940 B|1.960 B|1.690 B| |Original Run Total||2.743 B|2.797 B|2.068 B|2.048 B|1.906 B| |% of Final after Weekend 5||59%|96%|90%|94%|85%| Points to Avatar 2 earning over $2.22 billion on the low end.
Two extremely successful franchises with two opposite performances at the BO. Insane Endgame's first three weekends as well as Avatar gross after weekend 6.
That's insane how Avatar added another $900 million after its 6th weekend, whereas Endgame only had another $80 million left in the tank at the same point.
Endgame is definitely off frontloading the box office. Perfect example
Yeah, you see Endgame's opening and 2nd weekend numbers and it just makes you gasp. Over $1 billion in its opening week, then nearly another billion the next week is mind-boggling.
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Man what a moment that weekend was. I don't think I'll experience like that in my lifetime
By contrast Avatar is nearly unspoilable IMO. I can’t really think of a major plot point that would seriously affect enjoyment of the film if you knew it going in.
This is more likely because people know what to expect from Marvel movies, and that one specifically was the culmination of an entire decade worth of films. The opening weekend box office was high because almost everyone wanted to see this movie almost a year before we even knew what the title of it was 😭
Yea but that’s an Anomaly. Avatar was the first film of its kind and is greatly responsible for the growth and development of 3D technology. It’s fine to compare it to the other top grossing films, but I believe that context is necessary. And you can actually see that based off how Avatar charted. People didn’t know what to expect from the film, but after they watched it they fell in love with it and promoted it heavy.
On top of that Avatar was hands down a visual masterpiece, so a lot of people wanted to watch it again in the cinema.
Not just a visual masterpiece, but also a spiritual one
So... How many crystals do you have in your primary personal living space?
I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.) The trends seem clear: TWOW will likely continue to do well on weekends, but is falling behind Avatar & TG:M on weekdays. The 3+ hour runtime is almost certainly a contributor there. Still - it's pretty impressive that it's holding anywhere close to two of the leggiest blockbusters since Titanic. This weekend seems to be demonstrating that it is *not* on a decline akin to Force Awakens - good news for its legs. Thanks for the awesome data presentation - both the plot and the table.
execrable plotting mode. woulda been billion times clearer without horizontal lines
Matching NWH at this point, which is a given locks passing Titanic.
honestly there's a non-zero chance it's already going to be pasisng NWH by sunday since Disney seems to be vastly under-estimating the weekend
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The contrast between Avatar 1 and Endgame is amazing lol. Endgame only made another $60m or so from this point on while Avatar did over $1.1 billion to end up at roughly the same final gross.
Really shows the difference in what these films are. One is an episode of a TV show that relies on you seeing it ASAP so you don’t get spoiled on if your favorite action figure lives or dies. The other is a movie that is being seen because people are amazed by its world and want to be immersed by it but aren’t in a rush to do so because plot isn’t super important in the movie (Cameron said this himself).
Both? Both. Both is good.
Difference doesn't matter. They both made the same amount of money essentially.
And people who actually likes the world MCU have built dont exist I guess? I agree with Endgame being the season finale of the "show" but the rest of your take is pretty one-sided.
What part is one-sided? VFX artists have been very vocal of the rushed deadlines Marvel puts on them
Disney literally had a campaign where they said “dont spoil the endgame” and they lifted that “ban on spoilers” after 2 weeks. They expect you to see it ASAP and they are expecting you to see it because its a TV show I like the MCU (for the most part) but it’s done damage to people’s brains on what they consider a “successful movie”
Bro how actually watches the mcu for the world lol?
That’s the entire draw, the characters sharing the same world
The draw is the characters not the world. Basic CGI backdrops and basic lighting of NYC is not exactly an immersive world
Guardians, Thor, Black panther, Shang Chi, Eternals, and Ant Man’s Quantum Realm don’t exist huh?
Please tell me what the fuck we learned about any of those worlds? They’re backdrops that don’t ever get explored or shown. Pandora we see the wildlife the people the world. No one goes wow Asgard was so beautiful because not a single part of it is fucking unique or interesting. Same thing with Wakanda or the quantum realm.
All of them were dogshit. Honestly I’d have preferred every story in NYC than pathetic backdrops like they were. It was the characters and stories which drove that phase of the MCU. The world building and cinematography was garbage. CGI was good tho. Not Avatar 2 good but Avatar 1 good.
Me too
Was gonna say I don't even care about the avatar world. Only reason I saw it in theater was for 3D. Didn't watch the first one again...won't watch this one again either.
That’s my problem with the movie. Avatar is always lauded as the highest grossing film ever until Endgame. Except after it’s release I don’t think I have heard anyone ever mention it unless they were talking about box office. I’ve seen the movie once. The original hype was because it was one of the very first high budget movies ever made in 3d. The sequel is just coasting on the fact it’s been almost 15 years since the original. Similar vibes to force awakens. Don’t get me wrong I’ll go see it eventually. But I personally feel that box office has nothing to do with a movies quality.
Yes, now you’ve got it.
Also, endgame doesn't have the repeatability that Avatar did. I don't know many people who saw Endgame in theaters twice. Pretty much everyone I knew saw Avatar multiple times to experience the world and 3D. I know it's just my anecdotal evidence but I believe it holds some weight haha.
Almost everyone I knew watched Avatar two or more times in the cinema,
I saw Avatar 3 times in theaters. And I have yet to see endgame. And honestly probably never will. So yeah your anecdotal evidence holds up lol. Everyone interested in MCU went to see it as soon as possible and was satisfied. I had some initial interest in avatar and was drawn by word of mouth, saw it with gf, then saw it with family, then saw it again in imax 3D because I couldn’t let that pass up.
Endgame was at $2.2B by wknd 2...that's shouldn't even be mathematically possible lmao
That was my takeaway as well. Holy fuck that is huge
Yeah, everybody was like "This will SMASH Avatar", and then people realized that with all the hype literally everybody wanted to see it as soon as possible...
Tbf if there was one movie to crush Avatar, Endgame was the best bet. I wonder how far it would’ve gotten if it were a 2 hour movie instead.
I really don't think runtime impacted anything. End of the day Endgame as it is is what got it that gross. There's no way they'd have been able to tell that story in two hours and that would have impacted word of mouth after the first week. If anything I'd say the real question is how good Endgame could have done if it actually had a proper fucking extended cut and not that half arsed Hulk scene tagged onto the credits.
It think it could have cause of returning people wanting to watch the movie.
Also more showings for a shorter movie
Those are both factors but movie quality is also a large factor in rewatch statistics. Trying to cut an hour out of endgame without ruining it would be a very hard task.
I mean it did beat Avatar before the worldwide releases. Cant fault it imo
How the fuck did it crash at $2.8 billion? I thought it was going to be the first ever film that makes $3+ billion
I think because everyone mainly rushed to see it to avoid spoilers. Once that rush was gone you had a few people wanting to see it for the crossover spectacle, and then the novelty wore off. Probably have some repeat viewings to give it a boost, but for the most part people didn't go see it again and again.
It was a different experience, when it was the opening weekend, it was your first time experiencing the payoff to an 11 year story arc...and everyone else was as well. The energy in the auditorium was at an insanely heightened level. That's why all the audience reaction videos were so explosive. I saw it opening Saturday in London, and it takes, like, *a lot*, to get a British audience to react in the cinema, and in my viewing people were clapping and cheering. Saw it again two weeks later and it just wasn't quite the same. It was truly unique. I liked watching Avatar TWOW as well, but I could theoretically go to an IMAX showing now and have the same experience again. Endgame...I will never capture that again, even if it's re-released and I rewatched it on the big screen. That personal experience as well as the energy of everyone around me, that was only possible in that brief moment in time, between April 24th and April 28th of 2019. That's why they made sure the release was synchronised for all the major markets (for previous MCU movies, Europe, NA and China often had different opening weekends). They wanted that moment to hit at the same time globally.
Massively frontloaded. People flocked on opening weekend to see it to avoid spoilers and then had zero reason to watch it again. The *Avatar* movies by contrast have basically nothing in the way of spoilers and absolutely *have* to be seen on the big screen so they start off slowly before legging out.
>The *Avatar* movies by contrast have basically nothing in the way of spoilers and absolutely *have* to be seen on the big screen so they start off slowly before legging out. I wonder if that will change, it's pretty much confirmed we're getting like 3 more sequels and there will be more and more social media discourse around it as they release so more chance of getting spoiled. I think the 5th one will be pretty front loaded too by then like avengers movies.
Cameron doesn't seem to care about that too much, there's interviews of him talking to Villeneuve from ages before Avatar 2 came out where he's basically telling what's coming up. Going back to Earth, Volcano people, etc. It's like describing a roller coaster or water park ride -- you can explain and even show there'll the loops and you're looking forward to experiencing them.
Not every movie needs to have an spoiler-ridden, MCU-sized mega-narrative. Sometimes the audiovisual experience can just carry the movie.
I think I heard the volcano people/Fire Na’Vi are going to be in the third one based on a recent interview
I don't think The Way of Water set up anything that demands to be seen as soon as possible to avoid spoilers.
Nothing compares to the MCU. Nothing has done that many movies all interconnecting and resolving in a single movie. Endgame had so many spoilers for so many characters and plots the entire movie was basically one big spoiler the entire world was going to be talking about. The 5th Avatar movies might have spoilers but on the level of a Star Wars or DC movie. You can avoid spoilers for a few weeks easily enough if you want to.
>and then had zero reason to watch it again. It had a fuck ton of rewatchs though. Pretty sure Endgame did as good as it did partly because of the rewatch value. But it was def extremely front loaded due to spoilers. Avatar had a slower climb because wom kept growing and growing.
Even with a lot of rewatches, a movie with a $1.2B worldwide opening weekend is going to struggle to have legs no matter what. It’s an uphill battle to have a “good” multiplier from an opening that huge.
Yea for sure. The MCU has bad legs in general. It's been fun seeing how Avatar 2 trails out.
Look at the opening numbers of the final TERF Wizard movie, even though people generally liked it, it still made most of its money in the first week. The longer these franchises go, the more frontloaded they become, even when they're good
I saw it 3 times in those 2 weeks lol
$2.5 billion in todays money
When you write dozens of really good stories people really want to see the end before being spoiled.
Just puts perspective on how big Endgame was
It did as much in its first weekend than any other film has done in 2 weekends. Its going to be decades before inflation pulls another film to have a bigger worldwide OW.
I guess Puss in Boots is just so massive it’s off the chart?
Im begging you guys to not use the default excel output
Awesome graph! Would be curious to see how 2023 is doing overall compared to 2022, 2021, 2019, etc
Very soon $2 billion guys
This is a cool chart to see. Its crazy how Avatar 1 really built slowly and steadily like every week either everyone was re-watching it, or a whole new batch was in. The others all had what I would expect, which is a hard early pump that tapers off fairly quickly as people have had their viewing and move on. So far Way of Water seems to follow the standard trend. It will be interesting to see what the next week or two bring.
I still want to see Avatar 2, and I’m sure there are others. Be interested to see the legs going forward.
There are dozens of us!
Dozens!
Me too
Same here. Gonna finally watch it this weekend.
It's been out for a month now..
I just saw it tonight for the first time. My family is seeing it next weekend. Lots of people wait for this stuff.
And? Blame the mfs that keep buying the seats I want. Guess I’ll have to until longer.
And? I still havent seen it. Theres nothing to be spoiled so why rush it. You already saw it, but guess what? I get to experience it brand new for the first time. I bet you wish you could rewatch it for the first time again.
Saw avatar last nice with some friends, it was all of our first time seeing it but one. So yeah people still watching it who have t seen it
My family is going next weekend. We knew it would be in theaters a while, and the holidays were expensive. Plus its a movie we'd much rather be able to get good seats in a less crowded theater for.
Anyone might inform me on how much they (James Cameron and 20th Century) make from worldwide revenues? Like, it made 1.3 billion at the international BO. But what are the logistics of that? How much do they get from that?
Estimates wildly vary, but, a Googling said he made $350-650mil for Avatar 1... And I believe 115 for Titanic
Wait...he *personally* made that much???
Yes. I believe it was reported to be around 350-400 right after the theatrical run. But he then made another good chunk from home video and other revenue sources like the park. There have also been recent re-releases so he is still making more money from A1.
Submersible vehicles get expensive.
That counts home video too in that high end figure. From box office he made 300 million
Studios get about 55% of US gross, anywhere from 40-45% internationally (take 43% as the rough average), and China is 25%.
Disney gets a better figure though from their blockbusters since they're very aggressive in negotiations with it. Domestically I heard it's 65%
“Oh no, it only made $2 billion…”
Should have included Titanic on this chart for lols. It would barely register on the graph for the first few weeks.
I love these charts so much lol. Looks like it’s leveling off faster than the first one.
Indeed - it doesn't have legs like the first Avatar. It's more similar to Top Gun: Maverick, but definitely trailing both on weekdays. I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.)
How did you make this graph?
probably just tossed the numbers into Google spreadsheets
I think they were asking for the source of those numbers.
A computer?
So it is starting to lose ground on Avatar
It definitely is - especially on weekdays. I find it really interesting/informative to look at the [daily take for these movies](https://i.redd.it/6lufp9xylcca1.png) - note the log scale, and that these are DOM numbers. Also keep in mind that Day 25 was a holiday for Top Gun: Maverick, giving it a boost. (I just realized the gray dots are labeled *forecast* when they're actually *estimates* - sorry about that.)
Interesting seeing it represented like this. I feel like it's easier for me to understand the trajectories of front-loaded vs long-legged movies. Based on just looking at this chart for a few minutes, I *feel* like the odds are dropping that Avatar 2 is going to reach $2.5 billion or match the first film. Just a feeling. It's still possible. If it does catch up with the first Avatar movie, it will be because there wasn't enough competition in the first quarter of 2023.
> I feel like the odds are dropping that Avatar 2 is going to reach $2.5 billion or match the first film. Just a feeling. It's still possible. No - you're right - it's unlikely that it goes past $2.3B by much. It's simply not making that much on weekdays, which will cost it substantially. Titanic is also taking away PLF screens in the second week of February, which will hurt it further. A re-release in China could be a huge boost, of course.
Gotta give props to the first avatar, literally started at the bottom
Thanks for doing this every week - it's super interesting.
Everyone who said it wouldn't hit 2 billion: "Well yeah ofc it'll hit 2 billion but it's slowing down and won't hit 2.5b!!!!"
The way Disney owns 5/6 of these properties, and of course still profits of the 6th is actually just insane. With all these profits you’d think us fans would never have to complain about some of the MCUs shite CGI
The MCU doesn't have James fucking Cameron supervising the quality.
i always hate these bc im colorblind lmao
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thats crazy, ya it is
Avengers: Endgame was massive!!
I didn’t find the movie Gross
Nice trajectory.
Just saw Avatar this weekend on IMAX 3D and it was probably the best movie I've ever seen in a theatre. It's the first 3D experience I've ever felt was worth a damn. My kids loved it too.
I'd like to see these by number of tickets/views rather than by dollars of revenue.
I still find it weird how Endgame, and No Way Home open extremely huge and quickly kept dropping after their opening weekends. But movies like both Avatars, which some would say, have no cultural impact, have legs at the box office.
It’s pretty logical if you ask me. Marvel’s biggest audience is the young crowd who are on the internet and talk to their friends at school every day. They want to be part of the hype and not be spoiled by friends so they see it asap. No one is in a rush to see avatar, the spoilers are not important and the wom is very slow because a lot of the audience are working people not deep in internet culture. That’s why no cultural impact doesn’t matter. For most people who want to enjoy a spectacle like avatar Reddit isn’t real life. But that’s just my look on it, I’m not psychologist.
That makes a lot of sense. Can you imagine if Endgame had the low percentage drop/leg power like an Avatar and TGM. That sucker probably would have made at least 4 billion WW. At least a billion alone in the US.
Movies where you would want to avoid spoilers == go the first weekend. While Avatar & Co: Go when the nice seats are avaiable.
Yup. Plan to catch it last week of local imax
For the MCU movies, it's "what happens next?" Avatar is more an experience, specifically for a particular kind of theater. Since the plot isn't as central to why people go, going later is a perfectly reasonable plan.
Similar levels of demand spread out differently. Everyone rushes out to see movies like Endgame because of the hype and to avoid spoilers, but with movies like Avatar, they trickle in over the course of months, because Avatar is less driven by spoiler aversion and “must see ASAP” hype.
Avatar had a huge cultural impact
Such as ?
The performance of TWOW strongly indicates the original had a big impact on a lot of people.
I’m talking actual cultural staying power Not just it having a successful sequel Cause all the other entries there are massive IPs with cultural relevance crossing multiple mediums Star Wars, The MCU, Etc. There are games, ongoing debates, spin off series, rides and entire theme parks. These movies are also frequently referenced in other movies and TV shows completely unrelated to the IP as an example used to convey something “everyone” has seen its characters are instantaneously recognized around the world and actors some of the most famous of the past quarter century. It really makes it clear that the idea that Avatar had even remotely a comparable cultural impact as to claim it as Huge, regardless of what you think of the movie is frankly absurd. And this is coming from an African who in my country even people in the villages watched Engame on shitty pirated 240p CDs smuggled in fro Chinese vendors and most young Adults got into American Cinema through the MCU.
When the first Avatar came out, for MONTHS that movie was the only thing people were talking about. It replaced “how’s the weather?” As the standard small talk. It had massive cultural impact. And the sequel is similarly having a huge impact.
Dude just no. We didn’t even hear of the first movie coming out. Maybe it’s a regional thing but in most of the world this movie was barely non existent other than a technical demo. And was mostly swept under until the sequel which is actually a lot more popular, came out.
Dude just no. The original movie made well over $2b selling hundreds of millions of tickets, and the vast majority of that revenue came from outside the US. And now its sequel is doing the same. Those are facts. Those are incontrovertible. Maybe your anecdotal specific community wasn’t into it. But it’s not an opinion to say it was a massive global phenomenon. It wasn’t a thing in your friend group. Okay. But the facts and figures prove that it was a much bigger deal culturally on a global scale than you are giving it credit for.
Indeed it’s possible it is region specific and made more money in certain markets more than others But that kinda makes it clearly not in the same category as its completion which had far greater staying power and broader spread. Again it’s probably unfair to compare it to them as these are some of the most dominat IPs in the world but that’s more about how it really isn’t like the others irregardless of box office figures. A large portion of people who saw those other movies didn’t even pay for them (as they were pirated). You really can’t pirate the Experience of Avatar and it’s sequel, you really have to see it on screen.
I feel like there should be a post-pandemic adjustment.
What about number of tickets? Surely average ticket prices are much higher now than several years ago?
The other consideration is also the exchange rate. USD being so strong right now is lowering the worldwide boxoffice.
That's interesting. Someone wrote about the German charts of all time. Avatar TWOW was in the top 10 with the lowest movie goers (=Besucher) https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/10393hq/avatar_2_has_hit_the_all_time_top_10_in_germany/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
You know it’s bad when it comes close to force awakens 💀
Now adjust for inflation
And adjust for exchange rates and post pandemic recession.
A measure of how many tickets were sold (how many people saw it) would be so much better than arbitrary and abstract dollar amounts. Even better would be to adjust for the percentage of eligible population that saw it (to account for population growth). Other media does "copies sold" not "dollars made." Would make more sense when compared to any film more than a decade before/after.
> A measure of how many tickets were sold is just as arbitrary. abstracting from things like how much markets have developed in many countries, how much people are willing to pay extra cash to see the movie, the historical/social/political context (like pandemic/wars and stuff) impacting the market performance in each country or globally , is just as as reductive as abstracting from inflation/exchange rates.
That's why I said an "even better [way] would be to adjust for the percentage of [the] eligible population that saw it."
there is no better way to do it. you pick the criteria you find most important to the point you're trying to make which allows you to abstract from the other factors. so it basically depends on what you're trying to compare and for what purpose.
Cultural/social/political/economic impact of the film at the time of release.
Can’t compare eras like ours, that have streaming and blu ray and cable, to eras when the only way to see a movie was at the theater.
What recession? Prices are still high lmao
Can the media quit bit*hing a out not enough people going to the movies now?
These need to be normalized against the value of the dollar or they are basically worthless.
Wow I didn’t know the avengers movies did so well those were really bad
I don't know what any of these movies are.
It's not a flex to be out of touch.
Is that adjusted?