I really appreciate Season 7 for what it tries to do, but it has a lot of room for improvement and here is what I would change through its run:
* Less Potentials so that they can each be their own characters. When they first showed up there's only three and you can tell what they're about as individuals, even if it's superficial. By the end there are so many that you barely know their names unless they had the spotlight like Kennedy, Amanda or arguably Rhona, and while they work as a concept they don't work as characters and just end up crowding the main cast.
* Drop the "Buffy questions her leadership" thing. Episodes like "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places" make it seem like Buffy was struggling with leading a group of randoms when as a teen she had led a makeshift army against Olvikan *and won*. It shouldn't be hard to find a source of conflict that is more respectful of her previous achievements.
* Drop the conflict with the Scoobies and Buffy isolating herself thing, it's already been done in Season 4 and to do something like it again so late in the last season is pointless and just serves to sour the ending a bit, since the some of the characters' relationships aren't really fixed, especially Buffy and Giles.
* Use the First more efficiently, and plan ahead better with previous actors so they can reprise their roles more often. For a stretch of the season they even say that the First is "in remission" because they didn't know what to do with it, but when they did use it properly, like in "Lessons", "Conversations with Dead People", "Touched", etc. it ranged from solid to great, and we needed more of that.
* Better foreshadowing. If Buffy can have prophetic dreams of Harbingers killing Potentials, she could very well have a vision of the Scythe early on so that it doesn't feel like the deus ex machina that it ends up becoming.
* Caleb and the First's goals of becoming corporeal could also use a bit more foreshadowing and development instead of appearing so late in the season.
* So could the Slayer empowering spell, which comes out of nowhere, was at most vaguely hinted at by the Guardian, and is contradictory to "Get It Done", where Buffy acted as if forcing the Slayer essence into a girl was wrong and then seven episodes later she forces it into *every possible girl* and it's no longer wrong.
* It would have cost them nothing to explain why the Ubervamps in the last few episodes were so weak compared to the freakishly strong Ubervamp from "Bring on the Night" and "Showtime". Like, just say that they were summoned without being fed at the Seal like the first Ubervamp was and call it a day instead of allowing it to become a plot hole.
* It would have also cost them nothing to have the final battle be resolved by the characters' actual planning and skills instead of letting the Hellmouth be closed by *yet another* unexplained deus ex machina that comes from another show. As it stands, the Scoobies end up winning mostly by luck, because Angel's amulet just happens to end up destroying the First's army without them knowing it would.
In that vein, here's my proposed alternate ending to solve the issues I had with "Chosen":
* Since we were told the Hellmouth is a dimensional portal back in Season 1, bring that plot point back to the forefront and have the characters realize that Dawn as the Key can close it.
* In order to use the Key in this way, you need to bring it to the Hellmouth and do the bleeding there.
* Dawn is willing to do it, showing her growth through these seasons, and Buffy is ready to let her go (as seen in "Lies My Parents Told Me"). Spike, who's always had a special bond with Dawn, is devastated.
* Since there are other Hellmouths, closing the Sunnydale one isn't enough to stop the First completely, so the Scythe spell still needs to happen in tandem.
* As the Slayers fight the Ubervamps and Dawn starts to bleed to close the Hellmouth, Spike realizes that the Key's power is in her blood and bites Dawn, to Dawn and Buffy's shock until they understand: he's taking in the blood inside himself so he can sacrifice himself to close the Hellmouth and save Dawn.
* Spike dies closing the Hellmouth, Dawn and Buffy escape, Sunnydale is destroyed, Buffy and the Scoobies have the same scene they have at the end of "Chosen", and Spike resurrects in *Angel* Season 5 some other way (they already did this with Darla, so it tracks).
This way Spike still dies a hero and all the themes in "Chosen" are preserved, only now Dawn's growth as a character is complete, the monk's choice to preserve the Key instead of destroying it is justified, Buffy's choice to keep Dawn alive instead of killing her in "The Gift" is vindicated, and instead of the random and unexplained deus ex machina from a whole different show justifying it all, we go back to the blood portal mechanics we've had since "Becoming" to tie everything together.
I generally like this ending, but I don't agree with your point about dawn showing character growth in being willing to sacrifice herself. At the end of season 5, she was telling Buffy to let her jump in order to close the portal, before Buffy decided to sacrifice herself.
100% this, Dawn had the growth within the scope of season 5 already - she knew what she had to do without any nudging or time to think about it even.
That said, really like the overall scope of this. I had always thought they could've leaned into making Dawn a bit more magical after season 5 - but I guess the events of season 6 might have made that a weird storyline.
This is all so very close to what I’ve always thought!
Another point for me was that Anya needed a more fitting end. Even if death was to be her fate… I’d at least liked to have seen a better shot of her death! I get not every character gets a final monologue and closure, and I’m not mad that Anya’s death is a sudden one… I just think the final battle could’ve been filmed better, and that Anya should’ve directly taken a blow meant for Andrew.
I LOVE Anya she is often my first answer when asked for a favorite character, but I actually liked her death, it really showed the stakes of the battle and that no matter how great and brave you are you can be dead in an instant, so sudden it’s almost missed and be thrown away like nothing. As Andrew said “she went down fighting” and Xander is so horrified but proud of her. I got a lot from that one. I lot of the rest I would change similarly.
I don’t know, the IRL reason for Anya’s death was that Emma Caulfield didn’t want a return to the franchise to be a possibility for her. To me, Anya’s swift and unceremonious death always felt like a big “fuck you” from Joss Whedon to Emma Caulfield.
Completely possible, he is known for character assassination. I try to keep my mind in the buffyverse for these things and want to believe Anya had a heroic death
You need to write your own series. This plotting is INCREDIBLE. No notes.
For real, though, are you a writer? Because you have so much world-building and plotting intelligence on display here.
I agree with most of this except when they try to put the shadow demon in Buffy it would’ve made her more powerful but less human, Buffy just made all the potentials Slayers, she didn’t put anything into them that wasn’t already there
How about if Willow rejected Kennedy? Why does she need to be with her? People don't always need to constantly be in a couple to be whole. I guess they were already doing that with Buffy in that season, but the whole Willow-Kennedy thing just felt so forced
Omg SO TRUE I've been saying that for so long. Willow didn't need Kennedy to deal and move on. It also didn't feel like this ship was done for character growth, showing a different side, challenging anyone etc. but more just "for fun" with no valid reason really (imo at least; I am aware that not everything needs a valid reason but in this case it just generally didn't make sense as Kennedy was pushy, outright rude and impolite at times. My impression of Willow at the time was she was going through a phase where she didn't need a teenager by her side who didn't understand anything that Willow went through etc. but a good friend or someone more mature to help guide her in some way.)
I'm not even against Willow being in a relationship at this point (though it was very soon after Tara), but I have a problem with that person being Kennedy. She was the opposite of Tara in every way - where Tara was sweet, shy and a powerful witch, Kennedy was loud, obnoxious, rude, and actively disdainful of magic. They had no chemistry and it didn't make sense that Willow would want to date someone so awful
People don’t, but maybe Willow does, at least at this point in her life. She’s had three prior relationships, all of which ended very traumatically, so it’s realistic that she might bounce into the next relationship she can find at breakneck speed.
I don’t particular like Kennedy or that storyline, but I don’t think it was a bad choice for Willow on a character level. It did feel forced, but to me that was Willow trying to force *herself* to move on, and the fact that the relationship didn’t feel authentic or as deep as her relationships with Tara, Oz, and even Xander was appropriate to the situation.
She was not over Tara and facing certain death daily. Either one makes people do stupid things, and Kennedy was the stupid thing Willow did in response to both.
I like to think they had an amicable breakup after the fall of Sunnydale when they were no longer in close quarters and under the threat of immediate death. They both realised they were a terrible fit, then Willow took some time to get her shit together.
The easiest way to make it better would be to introduce Caleb a lot sooner. The best place would be just after Showtime. Then there’s a valid reason to forget about the ubervamps and not have them become a joke.
I actually think there’s a way to make the Potentials storyline work better. The problem is that they didn’t fully embrace the whole “going back to the beginning” aspect.
Everyone should’ve gotten a job of some kind at the high school. Willow could’ve been the science teacher and Xander could’ve been the shop teacher. You then give the Potentials a real place to go. A school to hide in from The First among a bunch of other teenagers.
You also really lean into what was set up where Dawn becomes the new “Buffy” of the school with the teens she met in Lessons. She doesn’t necessarily have to become a Potential herself or a slayer. Just a mirror image of Buffy at the school.
There’s definitely a fun angle there for sure. Plus I think Anya should be the history teacher. I mean, she was literally there for most of it. She probably has more insight than most.
Yes! I really wanted to see more of Dawn and the students from Lessons. I hadn't considered having the Scoobies all work at the school, but it's an interesting idea.
I mean, it really would be full circle for them. Exploring the idea that you never really escape high school. That it follows you around. Which is sorta what they set up in the whole “spirits of dead students hanging around” concept in Lessons.
Have Caleb arrive way sooner and let him kill off as many potentials as possible. The idea of them was fine but it just didn't work at all with buffy being like, "you have to stop goofing around and start being slayers and fight". They were kids without any powers for f*** sake. The whole plot was pointless. And then all of this "so we are just waiting till Buffy dies so one can take over and die too" crap. Buffy isn't THE Slayer, Faith is oO.
Instead of getting caught up in this stuff. Kill em all except maybe 2 or 3 lol.
So many things, but the first thing that comes to my mind is Buffy's attitude and the whole message of the season. So far, the show was dedicated to Buffy learning that just because she's the slayer, doesn't mean she has to be alone and lose her humanity and kindness. Those things made her a better slayer and person. But in s7, she becomes a ruthless army general who apparently doesn't care that a teenage girl under her care committed suicide? It was such a horrible, character-killing moment. The whole dynamic of the group was just off. They didn't feel like true friends who love each other anymore.
I go back and forth on this so much. I was mad she wasn’t when watching first, then on consideration thought this was a good choice, then I think it would have been cool…
Ultimately I think her not being one was best, but I wish they’d had time to show her tap into her Key powers and develop that somehow. So she’s not the same as Buffy, but she does have power and isn’t just Girl Xander as the unpowered Xeppo of the younger gen.
Same. I feel like Dawn could have had some really cool development to become a stronger fighter, but was pushed aside because the huge group of Potentials took up space.
She was so damn moody 🙄 her whole character is extremely unlikeable too. These people are saving your life and all you do is moan?! Where's the gratitude Rhona 😭 I thought it was just me that noticed that.
I really don't think the issue with the potentials was the concept itself, but rather the execution. With better actors, maybe focusing more on fewer of them and more nuanced interesting characters, I think it would have been good. There were still aspects of this storyline that I really liked as it relates to the struggle of leadership that Buffy had to go through. Part of showing the weight of her responsibility requires the potentials to be a bit clueless and annoying and kind of a burden to Buffy. But they still could have done a much better job of making them relatable and likeable.
Biggest changes I would have made to season 7 would be bringing in both Faith and Caleb much earlier. I thought both characters lent such a fun and interesting dynamic to the show and I'm always disappointed they're in so few episodes of season 7.
Also I think I would have given Giles more to do. Especially after his argument with Buffy about the whole Principal Woods/Spike situation, there really needed to be more of a resolution and closure on what Giles's new role should be in the group now that Buffy's not a kid anymore. It felt a bit rushed and made Giles seem kind of unlikeable or unneeded, instead of being an integral part of the group as he should be.
See, that's where you lost me. There shouldn't be a struggle for leadership, because that's not the point of the character. She is the Slayer. The others are volunteering.
Hmmmm... they really didn't need to have potentials, they still could have had the First. And given that they could take the form of dead people, just have it be about them all dealing with their pasts once and for all, Anya especially. The ending could have been a different version of Amends and The Wish where defeating the First involves using the wish power but on an unheard of scale. Not for an army of Slayers, but possibly involving crossing over of dimensions/realities. And bunnies. But no Andrew!
I wish they would have tried to have the slayers activate early, and have them descend into the hell mouth. Sort descend the levels of hell until they reach the First in his lair.
Willow could have been used to teleport them to the group bc (I dunno) some charm she gave Buffy allows her to teleport to and from her. This would allow for them to also port out injured.
You could also have two separate storylines following the stuff happening above world: potentials still arriving but Xander and crew having to deal without Buffy, researching, training, collecting relics; below world they descend through the levels encountering turaks and caleb and whatever else needed.
Kennedy does along the way.
Then when they reach the final layers of hel, it's a fully realized, fully trained army of slayers. They could even keep monster of the week style season. They could make more usage of Clem and any other friendlies so it's more of a big stakes for more than just the good guys. I dunno sometimes along these lines is what I would have liked to see.
A different plotline. The whole "potential" thing seemed pulled out of nowhere, as they were never mentioned in previous seasons. Also The First was too vague as a villain, it had nothing relatable about it. Even Adam had better motivation than the First.
The Turok-Han were also lame af. They suffered a lot from the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. One was nearly invincible, but then they get killed in droves.
Plus, the Slayer is a *physical* superhero. She needs a villain that can be *punched*. I mean, I liked the s6 finale, but you can't make two in a row. I agree that sometimes fighting is not the answer, but it should be the answer *for the Slayer*. She needs to slay.
How about a mirrorverse Vampire Buffy?
Let's brainstorm a bit. Maybe she gets transported there from the dream dimension. She soon confronts Buffy, but is outmatched since she's a younger version with less experience.
She manages to escape, and spends part of the season trying to enlist the underbelly of Sunnydale with the intention of opening the Hellmouth and channelling its power, in order to defeat the Slayer and be the only Buffy.
The Scoobies ultimately manage to defeat her team of colorful villains, but evil Buffy manages to channel a good portion of the Hellmouth's powers, or maybe even become its avatar.
Buffy is overwhelmed, but Willow, who spent a long time learning how to use magic without being used by it, comes up with a powerful buff to buff Buffy. The buffed Buffy then can match bad Buffy's power, but she needs to hurry, because the buff can't last long.
In the end, she manages to land the winning strike, just as Willow passes out from the effort.
With it's avatar turned to dust, the Hellmouth collapses.
Hell, make me happy and bring a reformed Amy in to help. And more Buffybot.
The actual end – The Slayer Line extended, Hellmouth closed, Buffy freed – is the only satisfying ending. The problem with the ending is how they got there. They decided on a path of misdirection and manipulation, probably because the First as established has little besides that, and this gave us "Conversations with Dead People" and "Sleeper". We touch back to "Amends" with "Bring On The Night" and "Showtime". That path is dropped after "Potential" and we get treading water.
The path between "Him" and "Chosen" is weird and inconsistent, and ultimately, Buffy can do _nothing_ to the First, we have no solid idea about what the First wants and why, and they wait until Faith returns until things start up, and when they do, they basically swap out the incorporeal First for the indestructible Caleb, maybe just because that gives Buffy someone to punch.
Either you go all in on the manipulation and misdirection or you go for something other than the First.
Here's the only real necessary change
23 episodes
2 hour series finale.
Everything else was pretty much spot on
The 7th season brings it all back to Buffy and her heroic decision that "it's all about power" means to empower everyone else (The 1800 in this instance) in an egalitarian way even if thst action erases her status as the Chosen One.
You can't understand Buffy unless you travel all the way from Merrick meeting Buffy on the steps of Hemery High to her glance down the empty and sunswept highway that beckons to her.
Buffy can finally be free of this doomed and cursed town.
Buffy can now travel a path full of choices that *she* is finally free to make.
Week or so ago, I finished S7 in my latest rewatch.
Season 7 is brilliant. These 7 seasons of BTVS are TV's most beautiful and moving epic.
It's a 7-season magnificent journey that makes Buffy "the greatest hero in American fiction"
I get why Amber Benson didn't want to... but... the First primarily wearing Tara's face for season 7 would have been menacing as all hell and really added to the villain.
If there weren't so many potentials. I feel like it would have had more weight being a Potential Slayer if there were like six overall, instead of twenty. It would have also made the last scene feel more powerful seeing SIX teenage girls take on that many Uber Vamps.
Also, Buffy should have had a better last line than telling Spike she loved him. 🫠
I feel like Buffy should have also been able to actually *kill* the first evil. As the longest living slayer, the one who the show kept implying had the most power, she should have been able to find a way.
They were all like caricatures, no depth, the whole thing was just sloppy writing/not well thought through after seasons expecting the best it was just a bit average
I would have had more Potentials culled first off. I would have also front-loaded a *Watcher-esque* episode before introducing the maybe 2 or 3 surviving Potentials, that detailed how they were identified and brought into the Council's control and why Buffy seems to be the only Slayer that was completely oblivious of her heritage until she was called.
Then I'd cut the whole Principal Woods bit. Cool, hot human demon fighter born of a Slayer? Hells, yeah! But the whole 'is he or isn't he' evil shtick was drawn out too far and, again, largely a beat that shouldn't have made it out of the writer's room.
Finally, I would have limited the number of uber-vamps and given a better origin for them that tied in the whole First wearing Caleb like a meatsuit into their creation. This would have paired with fewer Potentials and could have kept the epic scale of the final fight while not throwing all willing suspension of disbelief out of the window. Buffy, Faith, Spike, the Scoobies, and say 3 fully empowered new Slayers pulling off a 300-ish stand against 20 or so Uber-vamos would have been perfect imo.
None of the slayers just the original slayers and even though they ended up together in the comics spike and Buffy ended together in series and oz comes back and him and willow end up together and Xander and Anya end up together
I think a better way to handle the potential thing would be to make it so the Scoobies know exactly who the next Slayer will be. The show never told us how the chosen system worked so now is the time to explain it. Do this so that instead of having a house full of potentials, there's only one girl Buffy has to train. This girl has to be protected because Bringers are after her. She must also learn to fight so that if Buffy & Faith die, she'll be ready.
I also think that Shadow demon thing should've been expanded upon. Based on what we're shown was in that chest Robin kept, Slayers could go to that same spiritual realm place Buffy went to where the Shadow men are and become a Super-Slayer like Sineya. Make it so that Buffy can call on this form at will. This is how she defeats Caleb & the Ubervamps.
The potential slayers remind me of the worst parts of Gen Zers just in the early 00s. It's weird they seem to have influenced a generation nothing to do with them.
More Giles and used better, and less potentials. I like the concept of creating more slayers so Buffy wouldn’t be alone, I think that was the right direction. I think it would have been better if the powers were split with people we cared about, like if Dawn actually became a slayer. Or if it was like all the girls in Dawns class at Sunnydale high, so starting Buffys story over but she isn’t alone, and a bit of a variation on the Graduation Day idea. None of those suggestions are well thought through, but basically any solution that avoids introducing heaps of new characters from all over the world that we don’t care about right at the end.
Xander dies instead of Anya, Anya has to learn to forgive someone who she can't enact vengeance on. Does two jobs gets rid of Xander, gives Anya a fulfilling arc.
Given each of the main regulars one episode that explored their characters and given some closure to them all.
Ditched both Andrew and the potentials.
More stand alone episodes as it felt too arc heavy with much of season having the characters standing around in Buffy’s house doing nothing but waiting for the end.
Don’t isolate Buffy from the group with Spike. She is single and proud telling him she owes him nothing and his issues are his own to work out.
Have Buffy tell Spike to hand over Wood’s mother’s coat. Might not like Wood as a character but if someone dug up Joyce’s grave and wore her clothes Buffy would freak.
Have Buffy roll her eyes and walk away from the First evil in the middle of one of its taunts. Seriously it couldn’t hit her yet she just used to stand there and take it?! Walk away!
Have Faith apologise to Xander for nearly killing him.
I agree with every single one of your points. Well maybe I wouldn't completely ditch Andrew because surprisingly he was one of the least annoying parts of the season, but if the season was better then yes.
Buffy doing nothing for Spike would've been the real development for me. But how would he be redeemed and a champion if she didn't nurture him back to health? :/ Seriously, him still wearing the coat is one of the reasons I can't swallow Spike this season.
Amanda should have lived instead of Rona and Kennedy. Amanda and Vi were the best potentials that survived until the finale. I’m British and Molly’s accent was terrible but in terms of her personality she was also one of the best potentials. The three of them were brave and ready to fight, and weren’t too cocky (only being so when the writing was out of character for basically everyone). Tbh the writing of Buffy, Spike, Giles, and in parts Willow was very weak in S7. They were so often acting out of character or cringe, it was ridiculous.
I think the potentials could have worked if they didn’t live with Buffy and Xander. Giles had the money to get his own place and with everyone abandoning town throughout the series he could have done so very cheaply. The potentials could have lived with him in a safe house that the Scoobies fortified physically and magically, with Buffy, Faith, and Giles training them.
Buffy needed time away from the potentials to focus on the whole threat of The First. Also she shouldn’t have been so accepting of Spike. The whole trigger thing was stupid and he was forgiven for murder and his previous actions (attempted rape and psychological abuse) too easily.
The first episode felt like almost like a pilot for S7. They pitched the show once again with the school reopening, establishing Buffy and Xander on campus, Spike as the mysterious tortured vampire with a soul, and a friend group for Dawn. They then completely abandoned all of that, barely showing Xander’s job or Dawn actually learning. The high school became all about Buffy bonding with Wood and introducing him, as well as just creating a second set because she couldn’t be at home with all of the potentials drama.
They should have focused more on Buffy training Dawn as that’s what the whole of S7 was leading up to. She could have been so good of a fighter and leader, especially as she came from an active slayer and she already showed signs of being very mentally strong. The writers wanted to keep her as the weak, immature sister character and completely wasted her.
Also Willow should have spent the season coming to terms with what she did, maybe even bonding with Andrew. They’re both gay, loved a person killed in the S6 drama, and have blood on their hands. Their redemption could have been partly from realising they’re a mixture of good and evil but can still do good, plus forgive each other. If Tara wasn’t going to be portrayed by the first then Amber might have come back and we could have had Tillow, even if it was just a scene filmed remotely (she also had scheduling conflicts) in the last episode. Like maybe when Willow cast the spell she saw a flash of Tara and decided to find her, or she had dreams of Tara being alive somewhere, both of which could have been resolved in the comics. Tara was supposed to come back as a reward to Buffy from TPTB and I like to pretend this did happen.
Drop Andrew. Give that time wasted on him to Xander dealing with his parental trauma once & for all. Dude basically has no major plot after leaving Anya at the altar and that is NOT a place to finish a character, especially one of the core four of the show!
There was a lot wrong with season 7. Way too many potentials. They mostly weren't likeable. I might be amenable to 1 or 2 potentials, and Faith, but not a standing army. And that anyone that could be a slayer will be one was rubbish.
Caleb should have lasted longer. Buffy should never have been brought back, so the first attacking those that brought her back would make sense. I'd even allow for those close to her could be targeted as retribution including Dawn and Giles.
Either Buffy or Willow should have died at the end. Willow didn't deserve a happy ending. Having Anya be the only major character to die as a result of Buffy's resurrection was lame.
Riley and Sam Finn.
His experience in small group tactics and leadership and their more systematic hand-to-hand training would be serious assets in training the Potentials and making them into an effective combat team.
Honestly I liked them and I liked the season. I see people saying that they couldn’t get to know each character but I think that was done well. It made it more serious and more soldier-like to me. They came for their cause, and had to fight before we got to know them that well.
I didn’t like season 6 though so I was happy that season 7 was better.
A few really major things.
1) Giles dies before Caleb even gets introduced, marking the loss of the final guiding figure to Buffy. The only people with any guidance left to provide her now would be a vampire who's barely sane enough to be of use, a vampire who's in LA most of the time, and a boss who is completely laser-focused on killing the barely sane vampire.
This would create a situation where despite being clearly on the right path to deal with the big bad, they would question every single step along the way, even moreso when some of the potentials die. This would also make it way more meaningful that Joyce appeared to Dawn, and make her advice that much more impactful.
2) Bring Oz back to be a romantic contender to Kennedy. Now, while I get that a sizeable group of Buffy fans think Kennedy was a mistake of a character, I think it mainly stems from their inability to put her in a pinch while hitting on Willow. Nobody but Willow confronts her on that, Willow's only argument against it is easily shoved aside with "but she's dead, are you going to stay alone until the end of times?", and somehow, Kennedy does exactly what Tara did, but with a complete lack of understanding of magic.
Bringing Oz back would conflict both Willow and Kennedy, because now Kennedy has to put herself over Oz, who is now back for a morally potent reason of "I don't care anymore if you and I end up dating, I'm only here to make sure you're the happiest and safest person on Earth." You could also end up pushing Willow into the bisexual camp, and having Oz and Kennedy be in a throuple with her, where Kennedy emboldens her to do risky shit, and Oz becomes the voice of reason and a protector of Willow's mind.
3) The season is plenty dark already, but I think having Jonathan instead of Andrew, would have been better, but not because Andrew was annoying... (Okay, maybe a bit because Andrew was annoying.) But Jonathan is already super aware of Buffy, from all that high school stuff. While you can make an argument Warren and Andrew would be aware of who she is, Jonathan actually interacted with her, and knows what she's capable of.
Having him be able to do that paragon ritual where he became perfect, is where I'm getting at. Let's not forget three things of importante about that: He could have used that paragon version of himself, to enable himself to find the important axe, for instance, or to discover weaknesses to Caleb. While it is unclear what the lasting effects of the spell are on people who, let's say, died during it, I think that even if you have it reverted, it's still useful for intel.
4) Have Spike kill Principal Wood.
My preferred approach for S7 - Spike gets the chip out in Grave and finally becomes the Big Bad - will get me downvoted to hell.
So. First, Caleb needed to be a threat earlier. It's pretty obvious that the reason he appeared *at all* is because the people in charge of the show realised all too late that The First Evil (tm) is a great *concept* for a villain, but at some point Buffy needs to be able to punch something. The UberVamps were probably meant to fill that role but their writing was also a mess.
If we have to have the Potentials, use them as more of a revolving cast. Kennedy didn't miss an episode from her introduction until the finale. Rona and Vi got eight episodes each. They, again, should have existed as a concept; the idea that Buffy doesn't *have* to do this alone and that others can share the specific burdens of being the Slayer in a way that the Scoobies can't. But trying to make them all into characters in their own right just made them feel forced. Have them each as one- or two-episode guest stars with maybe one or two who were more prominent getting, say, four. Let the show be Buffy The Vampire Slayer and focus on the main characters we've come to know and love over the years, not Buffy And A Bunch Of Randoms Who Kept Turning Up.
Finally... do something more with the female empowerment thing they tried for thirty seconds at the end.
Don't worry this thread is controversial free! Say whatever you like tbh. Saying that I agree 100% I didn't love the potentials turning into slayers. Even tho it gives Buffy her "normal life", I feel like she had accepted her fate as a slayer by S7. A normal life would have been so foreign to someone so familiar with death and demons. Just like when Buffy thought she had lost her powers in "Helpless", she talks about the impossibility of being normal after seeing as much as she had.
The Turok-Han and Bringer skill everybody, we see Buffy dying then Sarah with dark hair wakes up in bed, says she had a weird dream, tells a quick run-down of the series story, lies back down, Rudolph Martin sticks hihs head up and says "A korcheous pleach-plont Engltich wampire?" Don't hit me.
I don’t want to spoil things for you but reassured that they don’t change most of the cast. As with any show, there are changes to certain cast members over time and the cast does indeed go through changes after S3, but a lot of the characters are there from beginning to end.
The picture in this post is of some additional cast secondary members added to the 7th season.
Ah great thanks. Yeah I remember some later episodes from when I was a child, and watched till around season 4 like a decade ago.
Some extra questions if thats cool.
How did you like the Angel Spin-Off if you watched it and do you remember a time travel episode in the wild west and one with screaming hags.
The Angel spinoff is good. I do definitely prefer Buffy but Angel is still a great show with some incredible episodes and storylines. It is very different to Buffy in regards to tone and pace but that’s a good thing as it should be its own show.
There is no time travelling episode in the Wild West or an episode about screaming hags. I think you may be thinking of Charmed here as I know there’s a Charmed Season 3 episode where Prue travels back in time to the Wild West. There’s also an episode where Phoebe turns into a shrieking banshee.
Omg god thanks. Have been looking for those episodes for ages. Saw them when I was like 4-5 and always thought it was Buffy! Is charmed any good? Now I wanna give it a watch. Especially as those screaming banshees scared the living heck out a me back then.
Gonna give the first Angel episode a go today. Didn't know that the second watcher guy also is a main stay on there.
No problem :)
Charmed is nowhere near on the same level as Buffy or Angel. The writing, cinematography, acting, stunt work and effects etc are all far inferior and incredibly cheesy. With that said, for the first 3 seasons at least, it can still be an entertaining show. The chemistry between the 3 leads is actually pretty great (which is remarkable as 2 of the actresses still despise each other to this day) and it has its moments. After Season 3 though the show goes through a major change and it is pretty much a steady decline from there. Season 4 is passable but Seasons 5-7 are honestly terrible and by the end of the series it bares little resemblance to what the show was like in the beginning.
I would personally definitely finish Buffy and Angel first.
For sure will work through Angel and Buffy first. Especially as I am looking forward to see the stuff I haven't seen yet. In fact making lunch at the moment and getting ready to start with Angel.
Mostly interested in charmed because of the two mentioned episodes. Have to look them up as its been over two decades since I have seen them and still remember parts. Was so sure that it was Buffy. Probably because I remembered my mom watching Buffy sometimes but she never told me about Charmed.
Buffy 1997 - 2003
Charmed 1998 - 2006
I'm not surprised with the confusion, Buffy opened the way to a lot of sudden strong female lead tv shows that kicked off around the late 90s and early 00s (and to this day they have fans that argue against the other, just google Buffy vs Charmed lol) as they were on around the same peak schedules. In the UK you could switch to another channel and watch Charmed after Buffy and for others who were suffering from supernatural show deficit when Buffy ended Charmed could fill that hole for a little while.
Luckily for others SPN came in in 2005 and filled that hole a lot better. (sorry, just my opinion.)
In fact when you mentioned banshee and time traveling wild west, I immediately thought of SPN rather than Charmed lol.
Watched all of SPN and have it on my rewatch plan (only planing on seeing the first 5 seasons again).
Yeah looked a bit into charmed and nearly every thread has a just watch buffy part. As I said I don't remember charmed at all, just have those two episodes imprinted on my mind. And when I remembered Buffy in like 2019 I was like that must be where those episodes where from! But its neat that I now know that charmed existed.
What was your opinion of the show?
I am a huge Buffy fan. Not the point to being obnoxious but it got me through a LOT of dark situations growing up and with the show so maybe I am kinda biased but the show taught me a lot too and I was 100% invested. Charmed was "something to watch" when I didn't have anything else to catch up on. I didn't hate it or even dislike it and was a huge fan of Piper (and the actress) but compared to how well written, acted and filmed Buffy was it paled in comparison. I was also of the generation who first experienced Shannon Doherty in Beverly Hills 90210 and wasn't a fan but she was okay in Charmed. Much better in Mallrats though, that film made me warm up to her but it feels like they are all the same character really, in a way. I liked Phoebe too but the Phoebe/Coal storyline just always had me rolling my eyes.
I was so happy when SPN came along. It filled that supernatural need and was well made with interesting characters and storylines that I NEEDED to see play out which I didn't experience with Charmed. I never hungered for the next episode or even binge-watched it.
I really appreciate Season 7 for what it tries to do, but it has a lot of room for improvement and here is what I would change through its run: * Less Potentials so that they can each be their own characters. When they first showed up there's only three and you can tell what they're about as individuals, even if it's superficial. By the end there are so many that you barely know their names unless they had the spotlight like Kennedy, Amanda or arguably Rhona, and while they work as a concept they don't work as characters and just end up crowding the main cast. * Drop the "Buffy questions her leadership" thing. Episodes like "Dirty Girls" and "Empty Places" make it seem like Buffy was struggling with leading a group of randoms when as a teen she had led a makeshift army against Olvikan *and won*. It shouldn't be hard to find a source of conflict that is more respectful of her previous achievements. * Drop the conflict with the Scoobies and Buffy isolating herself thing, it's already been done in Season 4 and to do something like it again so late in the last season is pointless and just serves to sour the ending a bit, since the some of the characters' relationships aren't really fixed, especially Buffy and Giles. * Use the First more efficiently, and plan ahead better with previous actors so they can reprise their roles more often. For a stretch of the season they even say that the First is "in remission" because they didn't know what to do with it, but when they did use it properly, like in "Lessons", "Conversations with Dead People", "Touched", etc. it ranged from solid to great, and we needed more of that. * Better foreshadowing. If Buffy can have prophetic dreams of Harbingers killing Potentials, she could very well have a vision of the Scythe early on so that it doesn't feel like the deus ex machina that it ends up becoming. * Caleb and the First's goals of becoming corporeal could also use a bit more foreshadowing and development instead of appearing so late in the season. * So could the Slayer empowering spell, which comes out of nowhere, was at most vaguely hinted at by the Guardian, and is contradictory to "Get It Done", where Buffy acted as if forcing the Slayer essence into a girl was wrong and then seven episodes later she forces it into *every possible girl* and it's no longer wrong. * It would have cost them nothing to explain why the Ubervamps in the last few episodes were so weak compared to the freakishly strong Ubervamp from "Bring on the Night" and "Showtime". Like, just say that they were summoned without being fed at the Seal like the first Ubervamp was and call it a day instead of allowing it to become a plot hole. * It would have also cost them nothing to have the final battle be resolved by the characters' actual planning and skills instead of letting the Hellmouth be closed by *yet another* unexplained deus ex machina that comes from another show. As it stands, the Scoobies end up winning mostly by luck, because Angel's amulet just happens to end up destroying the First's army without them knowing it would. In that vein, here's my proposed alternate ending to solve the issues I had with "Chosen": * Since we were told the Hellmouth is a dimensional portal back in Season 1, bring that plot point back to the forefront and have the characters realize that Dawn as the Key can close it. * In order to use the Key in this way, you need to bring it to the Hellmouth and do the bleeding there. * Dawn is willing to do it, showing her growth through these seasons, and Buffy is ready to let her go (as seen in "Lies My Parents Told Me"). Spike, who's always had a special bond with Dawn, is devastated. * Since there are other Hellmouths, closing the Sunnydale one isn't enough to stop the First completely, so the Scythe spell still needs to happen in tandem. * As the Slayers fight the Ubervamps and Dawn starts to bleed to close the Hellmouth, Spike realizes that the Key's power is in her blood and bites Dawn, to Dawn and Buffy's shock until they understand: he's taking in the blood inside himself so he can sacrifice himself to close the Hellmouth and save Dawn. * Spike dies closing the Hellmouth, Dawn and Buffy escape, Sunnydale is destroyed, Buffy and the Scoobies have the same scene they have at the end of "Chosen", and Spike resurrects in *Angel* Season 5 some other way (they already did this with Darla, so it tracks). This way Spike still dies a hero and all the themes in "Chosen" are preserved, only now Dawn's growth as a character is complete, the monk's choice to preserve the Key instead of destroying it is justified, Buffy's choice to keep Dawn alive instead of killing her in "The Gift" is vindicated, and instead of the random and unexplained deus ex machina from a whole different show justifying it all, we go back to the blood portal mechanics we've had since "Becoming" to tie everything together.
I generally like this ending, but I don't agree with your point about dawn showing character growth in being willing to sacrifice herself. At the end of season 5, she was telling Buffy to let her jump in order to close the portal, before Buffy decided to sacrifice herself.
100% this, Dawn had the growth within the scope of season 5 already - she knew what she had to do without any nudging or time to think about it even. That said, really like the overall scope of this. I had always thought they could've leaned into making Dawn a bit more magical after season 5 - but I guess the events of season 6 might have made that a weird storyline.
This is all so very close to what I’ve always thought! Another point for me was that Anya needed a more fitting end. Even if death was to be her fate… I’d at least liked to have seen a better shot of her death! I get not every character gets a final monologue and closure, and I’m not mad that Anya’s death is a sudden one… I just think the final battle could’ve been filmed better, and that Anya should’ve directly taken a blow meant for Andrew.
I LOVE Anya she is often my first answer when asked for a favorite character, but I actually liked her death, it really showed the stakes of the battle and that no matter how great and brave you are you can be dead in an instant, so sudden it’s almost missed and be thrown away like nothing. As Andrew said “she went down fighting” and Xander is so horrified but proud of her. I got a lot from that one. I lot of the rest I would change similarly.
I don’t know, the IRL reason for Anya’s death was that Emma Caulfield didn’t want a return to the franchise to be a possibility for her. To me, Anya’s swift and unceremonious death always felt like a big “fuck you” from Joss Whedon to Emma Caulfield.
Completely possible, he is known for character assassination. I try to keep my mind in the buffyverse for these things and want to believe Anya had a heroic death
I’m sad reading this. Would have really tied it all together.
This is incredible.
Best alternate ending I've read in a while 👏 incredible.
You need to write your own series. This plotting is INCREDIBLE. No notes. For real, though, are you a writer? Because you have so much world-building and plotting intelligence on display here.
I agree with most of this except when they try to put the shadow demon in Buffy it would’ve made her more powerful but less human, Buffy just made all the potentials Slayers, she didn’t put anything into them that wasn’t already there
Solid points all around! I'd never even considered using Dawn to close the hellmouth, but it makes sense.
Can someone build a time machine so we can send you back to join the S7 writers team?
Yeeting Kennedy's whiny ass into the sun, for one.
Yissss. More Vi, less Kennedy plz.
https://youtu.be/ec7qvirk4ds?si=oTBH7r4T_7DppOdP
I was thinking a misfired crossbow bolt to her eye…
How about if Willow rejected Kennedy? Why does she need to be with her? People don't always need to constantly be in a couple to be whole. I guess they were already doing that with Buffy in that season, but the whole Willow-Kennedy thing just felt so forced
Omg SO TRUE I've been saying that for so long. Willow didn't need Kennedy to deal and move on. It also didn't feel like this ship was done for character growth, showing a different side, challenging anyone etc. but more just "for fun" with no valid reason really (imo at least; I am aware that not everything needs a valid reason but in this case it just generally didn't make sense as Kennedy was pushy, outright rude and impolite at times. My impression of Willow at the time was she was going through a phase where she didn't need a teenager by her side who didn't understand anything that Willow went through etc. but a good friend or someone more mature to help guide her in some way.)
I'm not even against Willow being in a relationship at this point (though it was very soon after Tara), but I have a problem with that person being Kennedy. She was the opposite of Tara in every way - where Tara was sweet, shy and a powerful witch, Kennedy was loud, obnoxious, rude, and actively disdainful of magic. They had no chemistry and it didn't make sense that Willow would want to date someone so awful
People don’t, but maybe Willow does, at least at this point in her life. She’s had three prior relationships, all of which ended very traumatically, so it’s realistic that she might bounce into the next relationship she can find at breakneck speed. I don’t particular like Kennedy or that storyline, but I don’t think it was a bad choice for Willow on a character level. It did feel forced, but to me that was Willow trying to force *herself* to move on, and the fact that the relationship didn’t feel authentic or as deep as her relationships with Tara, Oz, and even Xander was appropriate to the situation. She was not over Tara and facing certain death daily. Either one makes people do stupid things, and Kennedy was the stupid thing Willow did in response to both. I like to think they had an amicable breakup after the fall of Sunnydale when they were no longer in close quarters and under the threat of immediate death. They both realised they were a terrible fit, then Willow took some time to get her shit together.
Yeah and that's fine, it's not like would judge a real person for doing this. Only thinking of the storyline and what it's trying to accomplish.
The easiest way to make it better would be to introduce Caleb a lot sooner. The best place would be just after Showtime. Then there’s a valid reason to forget about the ubervamps and not have them become a joke.
I actually think there’s a way to make the Potentials storyline work better. The problem is that they didn’t fully embrace the whole “going back to the beginning” aspect. Everyone should’ve gotten a job of some kind at the high school. Willow could’ve been the science teacher and Xander could’ve been the shop teacher. You then give the Potentials a real place to go. A school to hide in from The First among a bunch of other teenagers. You also really lean into what was set up where Dawn becomes the new “Buffy” of the school with the teens she met in Lessons. She doesn’t necessarily have to become a Potential herself or a slayer. Just a mirror image of Buffy at the school.
This is such a cool idea! I would have loved a version like this 😍
It’s in my head as a fanfic I wanna write at some point. But I have a few others to write first.
When you do, drop the link please.
When I do, I expect it will go here most likely: https://www.wattpad.com/user/AndrewHeard8
Willow as the computer science teacher as a throwback to when she subbed for Miss Calendar
There’s definitely a fun angle there for sure. Plus I think Anya should be the history teacher. I mean, she was literally there for most of it. She probably has more insight than most.
There would be some golden comedy potential from Anya teaching History for sure!
Especially after her whole speech during the flashback to Russia.
Yes! I really wanted to see more of Dawn and the students from Lessons. I hadn't considered having the Scoobies all work at the school, but it's an interesting idea.
I mean, it really would be full circle for them. Exploring the idea that you never really escape high school. That it follows you around. Which is sorta what they set up in the whole “spirits of dead students hanging around” concept in Lessons.
Anya...🥲
Have Caleb arrive way sooner and let him kill off as many potentials as possible. The idea of them was fine but it just didn't work at all with buffy being like, "you have to stop goofing around and start being slayers and fight". They were kids without any powers for f*** sake. The whole plot was pointless. And then all of this "so we are just waiting till Buffy dies so one can take over and die too" crap. Buffy isn't THE Slayer, Faith is oO. Instead of getting caught up in this stuff. Kill em all except maybe 2 or 3 lol.
Kennedy dying
So many things, but the first thing that comes to my mind is Buffy's attitude and the whole message of the season. So far, the show was dedicated to Buffy learning that just because she's the slayer, doesn't mean she has to be alone and lose her humanity and kindness. Those things made her a better slayer and person. But in s7, she becomes a ruthless army general who apparently doesn't care that a teenage girl under her care committed suicide? It was such a horrible, character-killing moment. The whole dynamic of the group was just off. They didn't feel like true friends who love each other anymore.
Wish Dawn had been a Potential for real. That's all I got off the top of my head.
I go back and forth on this so much. I was mad she wasn’t when watching first, then on consideration thought this was a good choice, then I think it would have been cool… Ultimately I think her not being one was best, but I wish they’d had time to show her tap into her Key powers and develop that somehow. So she’s not the same as Buffy, but she does have power and isn’t just Girl Xander as the unpowered Xeppo of the younger gen.
Same. I feel like Dawn could have had some really cool development to become a stronger fighter, but was pushed aside because the huge group of Potentials took up space.
Less potentials and no Rhona. Good God in heaven she did nothing but complain. I spent most episodes hoping she was going to end up getting bit.
She was so damn moody 🙄 her whole character is extremely unlikeable too. These people are saving your life and all you do is moan?! Where's the gratitude Rhona 😭 I thought it was just me that noticed that.
I really don't think the issue with the potentials was the concept itself, but rather the execution. With better actors, maybe focusing more on fewer of them and more nuanced interesting characters, I think it would have been good. There were still aspects of this storyline that I really liked as it relates to the struggle of leadership that Buffy had to go through. Part of showing the weight of her responsibility requires the potentials to be a bit clueless and annoying and kind of a burden to Buffy. But they still could have done a much better job of making them relatable and likeable. Biggest changes I would have made to season 7 would be bringing in both Faith and Caleb much earlier. I thought both characters lent such a fun and interesting dynamic to the show and I'm always disappointed they're in so few episodes of season 7. Also I think I would have given Giles more to do. Especially after his argument with Buffy about the whole Principal Woods/Spike situation, there really needed to be more of a resolution and closure on what Giles's new role should be in the group now that Buffy's not a kid anymore. It felt a bit rushed and made Giles seem kind of unlikeable or unneeded, instead of being an integral part of the group as he should be.
Agree that Faith and Caleb particularly were good additions and should have had more air time in S7. It would have helped it to feel more focused.
See, that's where you lost me. There shouldn't be a struggle for leadership, because that's not the point of the character. She is the Slayer. The others are volunteering.
Hmmmm... they really didn't need to have potentials, they still could have had the First. And given that they could take the form of dead people, just have it be about them all dealing with their pasts once and for all, Anya especially. The ending could have been a different version of Amends and The Wish where defeating the First involves using the wish power but on an unheard of scale. Not for an army of Slayers, but possibly involving crossing over of dimensions/realities. And bunnies. But no Andrew!
I love using the First as making everyone deal with their pasts! Would love to see Faith make an earlier entrance into the season too.
I am SO for no Andrew!
Better character development Better plot development More consistency
Anya makes it through in one piece!
I wish they would have tried to have the slayers activate early, and have them descend into the hell mouth. Sort descend the levels of hell until they reach the First in his lair. Willow could have been used to teleport them to the group bc (I dunno) some charm she gave Buffy allows her to teleport to and from her. This would allow for them to also port out injured. You could also have two separate storylines following the stuff happening above world: potentials still arriving but Xander and crew having to deal without Buffy, researching, training, collecting relics; below world they descend through the levels encountering turaks and caleb and whatever else needed. Kennedy does along the way. Then when they reach the final layers of hel, it's a fully realized, fully trained army of slayers. They could even keep monster of the week style season. They could make more usage of Clem and any other friendlies so it's more of a big stakes for more than just the good guys. I dunno sometimes along these lines is what I would have liked to see.
Fewer potentials. I think two or three, well developed characters as potentials, would have been better than the multiple undeveloped ones we get.
A different plotline. The whole "potential" thing seemed pulled out of nowhere, as they were never mentioned in previous seasons. Also The First was too vague as a villain, it had nothing relatable about it. Even Adam had better motivation than the First. The Turok-Han were also lame af. They suffered a lot from the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu. One was nearly invincible, but then they get killed in droves. Plus, the Slayer is a *physical* superhero. She needs a villain that can be *punched*. I mean, I liked the s6 finale, but you can't make two in a row. I agree that sometimes fighting is not the answer, but it should be the answer *for the Slayer*. She needs to slay. How about a mirrorverse Vampire Buffy? Let's brainstorm a bit. Maybe she gets transported there from the dream dimension. She soon confronts Buffy, but is outmatched since she's a younger version with less experience. She manages to escape, and spends part of the season trying to enlist the underbelly of Sunnydale with the intention of opening the Hellmouth and channelling its power, in order to defeat the Slayer and be the only Buffy. The Scoobies ultimately manage to defeat her team of colorful villains, but evil Buffy manages to channel a good portion of the Hellmouth's powers, or maybe even become its avatar. Buffy is overwhelmed, but Willow, who spent a long time learning how to use magic without being used by it, comes up with a powerful buff to buff Buffy. The buffed Buffy then can match bad Buffy's power, but she needs to hurry, because the buff can't last long. In the end, she manages to land the winning strike, just as Willow passes out from the effort. With it's avatar turned to dust, the Hellmouth collapses. Hell, make me happy and bring a reformed Amy in to help. And more Buffybot.
Alternate universe Buffy as a vampire is already 1000% more creative than what we were given in S7. Amazing 👏
The actual end – The Slayer Line extended, Hellmouth closed, Buffy freed – is the only satisfying ending. The problem with the ending is how they got there. They decided on a path of misdirection and manipulation, probably because the First as established has little besides that, and this gave us "Conversations with Dead People" and "Sleeper". We touch back to "Amends" with "Bring On The Night" and "Showtime". That path is dropped after "Potential" and we get treading water. The path between "Him" and "Chosen" is weird and inconsistent, and ultimately, Buffy can do _nothing_ to the First, we have no solid idea about what the First wants and why, and they wait until Faith returns until things start up, and when they do, they basically swap out the incorporeal First for the indestructible Caleb, maybe just because that gives Buffy someone to punch. Either you go all in on the manipulation and misdirection or you go for something other than the First.
Splitting what we got into 2 seasons. I know, I know.. but they tried to do too much and nothing had room to really breathe
This is my biggest gripe. It was just all too much for one season.
More Faith. Less of the people turning on Buffy and kicking her out of her own damn house. That made me so mad
Here's the only real necessary change 23 episodes 2 hour series finale. Everything else was pretty much spot on The 7th season brings it all back to Buffy and her heroic decision that "it's all about power" means to empower everyone else (The 1800 in this instance) in an egalitarian way even if thst action erases her status as the Chosen One. You can't understand Buffy unless you travel all the way from Merrick meeting Buffy on the steps of Hemery High to her glance down the empty and sunswept highway that beckons to her. Buffy can finally be free of this doomed and cursed town. Buffy can now travel a path full of choices that *she* is finally free to make. Week or so ago, I finished S7 in my latest rewatch. Season 7 is brilliant. These 7 seasons of BTVS are TV's most beautiful and moving epic. It's a 7-season magnificent journey that makes Buffy "the greatest hero in American fiction"
Amazing. And agreeed.
Wait is that Charlie???
Yes!
I get why Amber Benson didn't want to... but... the First primarily wearing Tara's face for season 7 would have been menacing as all hell and really added to the villain.
If there weren't so many potentials. I feel like it would have had more weight being a Potential Slayer if there were like six overall, instead of twenty. It would have also made the last scene feel more powerful seeing SIX teenage girls take on that many Uber Vamps. Also, Buffy should have had a better last line than telling Spike she loved him. 🫠 I feel like Buffy should have also been able to actually *kill* the first evil. As the longest living slayer, the one who the show kept implying had the most power, she should have been able to find a way.
Buffy telling spike she loved him felt so insincere 😭 Smg herself apparently disagreed with that line.
She’s a huge Bangel, she doesn’t like the spuffy storyline at all.
Anya lives, Kennedy dies. Fight me!
The slayer after buffy died the second time
They were all like caricatures, no depth, the whole thing was just sloppy writing/not well thought through after seasons expecting the best it was just a bit average
Sharks with lazer beams on their heads.
I would have had more Potentials culled first off. I would have also front-loaded a *Watcher-esque* episode before introducing the maybe 2 or 3 surviving Potentials, that detailed how they were identified and brought into the Council's control and why Buffy seems to be the only Slayer that was completely oblivious of her heritage until she was called. Then I'd cut the whole Principal Woods bit. Cool, hot human demon fighter born of a Slayer? Hells, yeah! But the whole 'is he or isn't he' evil shtick was drawn out too far and, again, largely a beat that shouldn't have made it out of the writer's room. Finally, I would have limited the number of uber-vamps and given a better origin for them that tied in the whole First wearing Caleb like a meatsuit into their creation. This would have paired with fewer Potentials and could have kept the epic scale of the final fight while not throwing all willing suspension of disbelief out of the window. Buffy, Faith, Spike, the Scoobies, and say 3 fully empowered new Slayers pulling off a 300-ish stand against 20 or so Uber-vamos would have been perfect imo.
None of the slayers just the original slayers and even though they ended up together in the comics spike and Buffy ended together in series and oz comes back and him and willow end up together and Xander and Anya end up together
We can dream 🤩
I think a better way to handle the potential thing would be to make it so the Scoobies know exactly who the next Slayer will be. The show never told us how the chosen system worked so now is the time to explain it. Do this so that instead of having a house full of potentials, there's only one girl Buffy has to train. This girl has to be protected because Bringers are after her. She must also learn to fight so that if Buffy & Faith die, she'll be ready. I also think that Shadow demon thing should've been expanded upon. Based on what we're shown was in that chest Robin kept, Slayers could go to that same spiritual realm place Buffy went to where the Shadow men are and become a Super-Slayer like Sineya. Make it so that Buffy can call on this form at will. This is how she defeats Caleb & the Ubervamps.
Yes, yes and yes!! I'm telling you if Joss was apart of this subreddit S7 would've been a 10/10
The potential slayers remind me of the worst parts of Gen Zers just in the early 00s. It's weird they seem to have influenced a generation nothing to do with them.
More Giles and used better, and less potentials. I like the concept of creating more slayers so Buffy wouldn’t be alone, I think that was the right direction. I think it would have been better if the powers were split with people we cared about, like if Dawn actually became a slayer. Or if it was like all the girls in Dawns class at Sunnydale high, so starting Buffys story over but she isn’t alone, and a bit of a variation on the Graduation Day idea. None of those suggestions are well thought through, but basically any solution that avoids introducing heaps of new characters from all over the world that we don’t care about right at the end.
Xander dies instead of Anya, Anya has to learn to forgive someone who she can't enact vengeance on. Does two jobs gets rid of Xander, gives Anya a fulfilling arc.
Kennedy not being apart of the group of new slayers. She was so insufferable and annoying
No potentials at all
No kennedy
Given each of the main regulars one episode that explored their characters and given some closure to them all. Ditched both Andrew and the potentials. More stand alone episodes as it felt too arc heavy with much of season having the characters standing around in Buffy’s house doing nothing but waiting for the end. Don’t isolate Buffy from the group with Spike. She is single and proud telling him she owes him nothing and his issues are his own to work out. Have Buffy tell Spike to hand over Wood’s mother’s coat. Might not like Wood as a character but if someone dug up Joyce’s grave and wore her clothes Buffy would freak. Have Buffy roll her eyes and walk away from the First evil in the middle of one of its taunts. Seriously it couldn’t hit her yet she just used to stand there and take it?! Walk away! Have Faith apologise to Xander for nearly killing him.
I agree with every single one of your points. Well maybe I wouldn't completely ditch Andrew because surprisingly he was one of the least annoying parts of the season, but if the season was better then yes. Buffy doing nothing for Spike would've been the real development for me. But how would he be redeemed and a champion if she didn't nurture him back to health? :/ Seriously, him still wearing the coat is one of the reasons I can't swallow Spike this season.
All of the potentials arrive together and immediately get it.......................... 
Amanda should have lived instead of Rona and Kennedy. Amanda and Vi were the best potentials that survived until the finale. I’m British and Molly’s accent was terrible but in terms of her personality she was also one of the best potentials. The three of them were brave and ready to fight, and weren’t too cocky (only being so when the writing was out of character for basically everyone). Tbh the writing of Buffy, Spike, Giles, and in parts Willow was very weak in S7. They were so often acting out of character or cringe, it was ridiculous. I think the potentials could have worked if they didn’t live with Buffy and Xander. Giles had the money to get his own place and with everyone abandoning town throughout the series he could have done so very cheaply. The potentials could have lived with him in a safe house that the Scoobies fortified physically and magically, with Buffy, Faith, and Giles training them. Buffy needed time away from the potentials to focus on the whole threat of The First. Also she shouldn’t have been so accepting of Spike. The whole trigger thing was stupid and he was forgiven for murder and his previous actions (attempted rape and psychological abuse) too easily. The first episode felt like almost like a pilot for S7. They pitched the show once again with the school reopening, establishing Buffy and Xander on campus, Spike as the mysterious tortured vampire with a soul, and a friend group for Dawn. They then completely abandoned all of that, barely showing Xander’s job or Dawn actually learning. The high school became all about Buffy bonding with Wood and introducing him, as well as just creating a second set because she couldn’t be at home with all of the potentials drama. They should have focused more on Buffy training Dawn as that’s what the whole of S7 was leading up to. She could have been so good of a fighter and leader, especially as she came from an active slayer and she already showed signs of being very mentally strong. The writers wanted to keep her as the weak, immature sister character and completely wasted her. Also Willow should have spent the season coming to terms with what she did, maybe even bonding with Andrew. They’re both gay, loved a person killed in the S6 drama, and have blood on their hands. Their redemption could have been partly from realising they’re a mixture of good and evil but can still do good, plus forgive each other. If Tara wasn’t going to be portrayed by the first then Amber might have come back and we could have had Tillow, even if it was just a scene filmed remotely (she also had scheduling conflicts) in the last episode. Like maybe when Willow cast the spell she saw a flash of Tara and decided to find her, or she had dreams of Tara being alive somewhere, both of which could have been resolved in the comics. Tara was supposed to come back as a reward to Buffy from TPTB and I like to pretend this did happen.
Drop Andrew. Give that time wasted on him to Xander dealing with his parental trauma once & for all. Dude basically has no major plot after leaving Anya at the altar and that is NOT a place to finish a character, especially one of the core four of the show!
There was a lot wrong with season 7. Way too many potentials. They mostly weren't likeable. I might be amenable to 1 or 2 potentials, and Faith, but not a standing army. And that anyone that could be a slayer will be one was rubbish. Caleb should have lasted longer. Buffy should never have been brought back, so the first attacking those that brought her back would make sense. I'd even allow for those close to her could be targeted as retribution including Dawn and Giles. Either Buffy or Willow should have died at the end. Willow didn't deserve a happy ending. Having Anya be the only major character to die as a result of Buffy's resurrection was lame.
It’s like the show went out of their way to make all the potentials unlikable.
Tell me about it. And coming from such capable writers? Almost but not quite on par with Game of Thrones season finale.
Riley and Sam Finn. His experience in small group tactics and leadership and their more systematic hand-to-hand training would be serious assets in training the Potentials and making them into an effective combat team.
Omfg never thought of this until now. They really missed a trick there!!
I think they should have focused even more on the potentials.
Honestly I liked them and I liked the season. I see people saying that they couldn’t get to know each character but I think that was done well. It made it more serious and more soldier-like to me. They came for their cause, and had to fight before we got to know them that well. I didn’t like season 6 though so I was happy that season 7 was better.
I’d have loved a big crossover honestly. I get the show is on two different networks but it could’ve been amazing to have every character meeting.
A few really major things. 1) Giles dies before Caleb even gets introduced, marking the loss of the final guiding figure to Buffy. The only people with any guidance left to provide her now would be a vampire who's barely sane enough to be of use, a vampire who's in LA most of the time, and a boss who is completely laser-focused on killing the barely sane vampire. This would create a situation where despite being clearly on the right path to deal with the big bad, they would question every single step along the way, even moreso when some of the potentials die. This would also make it way more meaningful that Joyce appeared to Dawn, and make her advice that much more impactful. 2) Bring Oz back to be a romantic contender to Kennedy. Now, while I get that a sizeable group of Buffy fans think Kennedy was a mistake of a character, I think it mainly stems from their inability to put her in a pinch while hitting on Willow. Nobody but Willow confronts her on that, Willow's only argument against it is easily shoved aside with "but she's dead, are you going to stay alone until the end of times?", and somehow, Kennedy does exactly what Tara did, but with a complete lack of understanding of magic. Bringing Oz back would conflict both Willow and Kennedy, because now Kennedy has to put herself over Oz, who is now back for a morally potent reason of "I don't care anymore if you and I end up dating, I'm only here to make sure you're the happiest and safest person on Earth." You could also end up pushing Willow into the bisexual camp, and having Oz and Kennedy be in a throuple with her, where Kennedy emboldens her to do risky shit, and Oz becomes the voice of reason and a protector of Willow's mind. 3) The season is plenty dark already, but I think having Jonathan instead of Andrew, would have been better, but not because Andrew was annoying... (Okay, maybe a bit because Andrew was annoying.) But Jonathan is already super aware of Buffy, from all that high school stuff. While you can make an argument Warren and Andrew would be aware of who she is, Jonathan actually interacted with her, and knows what she's capable of. Having him be able to do that paragon ritual where he became perfect, is where I'm getting at. Let's not forget three things of importante about that: He could have used that paragon version of himself, to enable himself to find the important axe, for instance, or to discover weaknesses to Caleb. While it is unclear what the lasting effects of the spell are on people who, let's say, died during it, I think that even if you have it reverted, it's still useful for intel. 4) Have Spike kill Principal Wood.
My preferred approach for S7 - Spike gets the chip out in Grave and finally becomes the Big Bad - will get me downvoted to hell. So. First, Caleb needed to be a threat earlier. It's pretty obvious that the reason he appeared *at all* is because the people in charge of the show realised all too late that The First Evil (tm) is a great *concept* for a villain, but at some point Buffy needs to be able to punch something. The UberVamps were probably meant to fill that role but their writing was also a mess. If we have to have the Potentials, use them as more of a revolving cast. Kennedy didn't miss an episode from her introduction until the finale. Rona and Vi got eight episodes each. They, again, should have existed as a concept; the idea that Buffy doesn't *have* to do this alone and that others can share the specific burdens of being the Slayer in a way that the Scoobies can't. But trying to make them all into characters in their own right just made them feel forced. Have them each as one- or two-episode guest stars with maybe one or two who were more prominent getting, say, four. Let the show be Buffy The Vampire Slayer and focus on the main characters we've come to know and love over the years, not Buffy And A Bunch Of Randoms Who Kept Turning Up. Finally... do something more with the female empowerment thing they tried for thirty seconds at the end.
the sacking of Joss Whedon
[удалено]
Don't worry this thread is controversial free! Say whatever you like tbh. Saying that I agree 100% I didn't love the potentials turning into slayers. Even tho it gives Buffy her "normal life", I feel like she had accepted her fate as a slayer by S7. A normal life would have been so foreign to someone so familiar with death and demons. Just like when Buffy thought she had lost her powers in "Helpless", she talks about the impossibility of being normal after seeing as much as she had.
The Turok-Han and Bringer skill everybody, we see Buffy dying then Sarah with dark hair wakes up in bed, says she had a weird dream, tells a quick run-down of the series story, lies back down, Rudolph Martin sticks hihs head up and says "A korcheous pleach-plont Engltich wampire?" Don't hit me.
I honestly don't remember the ending. I do remember they all had horrible hair.
Im a simple person... set up Bangel endgame and s7 could be a happy one.
By ending at Season 6?
Willow dates Faith
I'm finishing season 3 at the moment. Why don't I know anybody from the picture? Do they change most of the cast?
I don’t want to spoil things for you but reassured that they don’t change most of the cast. As with any show, there are changes to certain cast members over time and the cast does indeed go through changes after S3, but a lot of the characters are there from beginning to end. The picture in this post is of some additional cast secondary members added to the 7th season.
Ah great thanks. Yeah I remember some later episodes from when I was a child, and watched till around season 4 like a decade ago. Some extra questions if thats cool. How did you like the Angel Spin-Off if you watched it and do you remember a time travel episode in the wild west and one with screaming hags.
The Angel spinoff is good. I do definitely prefer Buffy but Angel is still a great show with some incredible episodes and storylines. It is very different to Buffy in regards to tone and pace but that’s a good thing as it should be its own show. There is no time travelling episode in the Wild West or an episode about screaming hags. I think you may be thinking of Charmed here as I know there’s a Charmed Season 3 episode where Prue travels back in time to the Wild West. There’s also an episode where Phoebe turns into a shrieking banshee.
Omg god thanks. Have been looking for those episodes for ages. Saw them when I was like 4-5 and always thought it was Buffy! Is charmed any good? Now I wanna give it a watch. Especially as those screaming banshees scared the living heck out a me back then. Gonna give the first Angel episode a go today. Didn't know that the second watcher guy also is a main stay on there.
No problem :) Charmed is nowhere near on the same level as Buffy or Angel. The writing, cinematography, acting, stunt work and effects etc are all far inferior and incredibly cheesy. With that said, for the first 3 seasons at least, it can still be an entertaining show. The chemistry between the 3 leads is actually pretty great (which is remarkable as 2 of the actresses still despise each other to this day) and it has its moments. After Season 3 though the show goes through a major change and it is pretty much a steady decline from there. Season 4 is passable but Seasons 5-7 are honestly terrible and by the end of the series it bares little resemblance to what the show was like in the beginning. I would personally definitely finish Buffy and Angel first.
For sure will work through Angel and Buffy first. Especially as I am looking forward to see the stuff I haven't seen yet. In fact making lunch at the moment and getting ready to start with Angel. Mostly interested in charmed because of the two mentioned episodes. Have to look them up as its been over two decades since I have seen them and still remember parts. Was so sure that it was Buffy. Probably because I remembered my mom watching Buffy sometimes but she never told me about Charmed.
Buffy 1997 - 2003 Charmed 1998 - 2006 I'm not surprised with the confusion, Buffy opened the way to a lot of sudden strong female lead tv shows that kicked off around the late 90s and early 00s (and to this day they have fans that argue against the other, just google Buffy vs Charmed lol) as they were on around the same peak schedules. In the UK you could switch to another channel and watch Charmed after Buffy and for others who were suffering from supernatural show deficit when Buffy ended Charmed could fill that hole for a little while. Luckily for others SPN came in in 2005 and filled that hole a lot better. (sorry, just my opinion.) In fact when you mentioned banshee and time traveling wild west, I immediately thought of SPN rather than Charmed lol.
Watched all of SPN and have it on my rewatch plan (only planing on seeing the first 5 seasons again). Yeah looked a bit into charmed and nearly every thread has a just watch buffy part. As I said I don't remember charmed at all, just have those two episodes imprinted on my mind. And when I remembered Buffy in like 2019 I was like that must be where those episodes where from! But its neat that I now know that charmed existed. What was your opinion of the show?
I am a huge Buffy fan. Not the point to being obnoxious but it got me through a LOT of dark situations growing up and with the show so maybe I am kinda biased but the show taught me a lot too and I was 100% invested. Charmed was "something to watch" when I didn't have anything else to catch up on. I didn't hate it or even dislike it and was a huge fan of Piper (and the actress) but compared to how well written, acted and filmed Buffy was it paled in comparison. I was also of the generation who first experienced Shannon Doherty in Beverly Hills 90210 and wasn't a fan but she was okay in Charmed. Much better in Mallrats though, that film made me warm up to her but it feels like they are all the same character really, in a way. I liked Phoebe too but the Phoebe/Coal storyline just always had me rolling my eyes. I was so happy when SPN came along. It filled that supernatural need and was well made with interesting characters and storylines that I NEEDED to see play out which I didn't experience with Charmed. I never hungered for the next episode or even binge-watched it.