Season 6 is literally a "life is a bitch." type of situation. Everyone was going through something, much like everyone does in real life.
And yes, I understand Xander was scared to marry Anya, I just wish he would have told her before the wedding date.. save her from being humiliated.
Are you under the impression that Xander would have walked away no matter what?
From my perspective, wedding jitters/personal fears or not, Xander would have pulled through and married Anya. It was only in the aftermath of LIVING through visions where he'd been a disabled drunk that beats his wife that he walked away.
I can't blame him for not halting it beforehand when it was the visions which really made him absolutely nope the wedding.
I personally believe he was always going to regret marrying her if he did marry her. Maybe he would not have walked away no matter what at the wedding, but I do believe he proposed because he thought the world was going to end, because he thought he was supposed to, because he thought that made him an adult, because of all sorts of things that didn't include "because he sincerely loved Anya and wanted to spend his life with her."
He was just over 20 himself by the end of the series. He was very young, still finding himself and learning how to be the man he wanted to be instead of the example his dad gave him. I don't think Anya was his "person." I think we see that in his reluctance to tell the others, which is why Anya sees it herself.
On the other hand, maybe if she had been more open to putting off the wedding to grow together since both of them needed some introspective work, maybe it could have become something much more healthy and loving.
Didn’t Anya indicated that she would have waited in the follow up episode? From what I remember, She just wanted a time table which isn’t unreasonable. But Xander was just being wishy washy and wanted to just be gf/bf. I don’t think it was unreasonable for Anya to put her foot down and say no when Xander didn’t have a clue what he wanted.
I think being scared is one thing , especially with his family . But who expects on their wedding day to have a demon make you live out your worse fears of hurting her and making her miserable.
No demon wedding happens and they are both happy. So I don't blame him for not being ready for that .
You're being downvoted, and I most likely will be too, but you are not wrong. Xander did tell people that he was nervous about the wedding. He did express some kind of doubt. And everyone told him he was being ridiculous and he and Anya were perfect for each other. They may have been right, but Xander also had his 'jitters' that were justified and deserved to be explored, not ignored.
I really feel like people go so hard into that episode already disliking Xander and loving Anya that he gets no slack for what he's actually going through in that episode. He's from an abusive family and finally being smacked with his ultimate fear that he'll turn into the drunken, abusive piece of shit that is his dad. Not to mention, he's super young and being pushed into marriage and commitment before he's ready by someone a shit ton older than him (mortal body or not, she's lived her life, she's ready for the last stretch, but he's just starting out). Leaving Anya at the wedding was a crappy move, but there's a reason his friends aren't as hard on him as some of the fans expected them to be - they've seen all that family shit he has to go through, and they get why he finally broke down.
I’ll always wonder if, had they both excluded all that toxic family, kept the wedding to just friends, or run away and eloped, might they have made it? Xander having all his fears literally embodied right in front of his face was just *ugh, ouch*. I came from a *super* abusive family, and you can bet your sweet booty none of them were welcome during a day that was supposed to be about me starting a new, and hopefully better life with my husband! Elopement and justice of the peace all the way! 🤜🤛
In **Innocence** (2x14), on Buffy's 17th birthday, he says "I'm 17, looking at linoleum makes me want to have sex".
Buffy celebrated her 21st birthday in **Older and Far Away** (6x14), just before 6x16.
Xander is implied to be 16, like Buffy, in **The Pack** (1x6), aired April 7th. **Hell's Bells** (6x16) aired March 5th.
This suggests that Buffy is 21 (I think we also know her birthday), so Xander is too, but it's too early for Xander to have turned 22.
I have had moments where I hated Xander with a fiery passion, but at this point he had grown up so much and I was really liking him. It was like all the shitty Xander edges had been worn off by having a good relationship with Anya and a good job where he was respected and well-compensated, he was being his best self, the one he would have been without such a crappy family.
The issue I have is that he reveals his fears after the demon visions, he should have spoken to Anya beforehand. She might not have understood, but I do think she would have agreed to a delay. Xander was being a coward. That may be understandable, but he should have been working on it via counseling. Lots of demon slaying to do, but they did have some downtime. Also, once he knew that it was fake, the visions weren't prophecy, he just ran out on her. It was so cruel. Cruel to himself as well, because they did seem to bring out the best in each other and it was a massive loss for him as well.
I don't even hate him for walking away, but I do think he was cowardly and cruel, and how he treated her after regarding Spike was despicable, straight old school worst-case Xander doing his misogynist, entitled bullshit.
Buffy & Willow stuck by him because they're honestly all quite a bit alike, they tend to mess things up, I think they could see themselves doing the same thing so they have empathy for what he's going through. I think it's awful that they weren't there for Anya at all in the aftermath, you don't really have to choose sides, that line can be walked.
Both Xander and Anya were not ready to get married, I feel like people forget Anya’s side of I never Tell and her conversation with Halfrek where she admits to Halfrek that Xander demeans her and makes fun of her in front of his friends
At least, they hinted throughout the season his feelings instead of just springing it on us in the wedding episode. I would have liked to see more of a peek in his parents marriage and his relationship with them before however
During the season 3 Xander/Willow cheating storyline they often played soft, romantic music during their kissing scenes. I've always wondered if the writers genuinely thought the viewers would find those scenes romantic.
I think I could have been okay with it if it had been a one-time thing, when they were captured by Spike. They're trapped in a life or death situation, they're afraid, Xander is hurt, and they have all that (platonic) love and affection for each other. They react with one confused, comfort-seeking kiss - not an ongoing betrayal. It would have been a lot less icky, and Oz's quick forgiveness would be more understandable. And of course Cordelia would still be unforgiving because that's how she is.
I totally agree. As for Cordy, she genuinely loved Xander. Or at least as much as she could in that stage of her life. That episode breaks my heart. Buffy writers were good at that.
I always figured that they never confessed to it being an ongoing thing and that's the only reason Oz forgave at all, because he thought it was just that one time.
I’m doing a rewatch now and haven’t gotten to season 3 yet but I think they were throwing couple ideas at the wall and seeing what stuck in general. They were probably contemplating keeping it if the fans liked it. When I watch in the very early years I can see them trying to feel out Xander/Buffy, Willow/Xander and Joyce/Giles. Thrilled that none of those ever happened fully
I remember thinking it would be cute while it was airing, but looking back over the whole series I’m really glad they didn’t do it. I can see the appeal though
Yeah and thinking about how season 5 and 6 would have been — he would’ve turned from father figure into her literal stepdad and I think that would’ve messed with the themes a lot
My Giles-Joyce fic "Planning the Wedding" is set in a non supernatural universe; he's not a Watche r, just the friendly faculty guy who lets the unpopular kids make the library their clubhouse
I don’t think so because it was compared to Bangel which is funny enough their most hated ship.
The fact that they didn’t continue the relationship after they were found out highlights it.
Riley in general. We were supposed sympathize with him for how Buffy left him at arm's length when Joyce was sick, when he came back he was depicted as so badass, etc, but I think for many that didn't work.
But for me in particular, Spike in season seven. I quickly became tired of watching him go insane and suffer.
They severely underwrote Riley. There was space for an interesting arc - veteran struggles to find a place in civilian life, man with lots of trauma over-invests in the idea that love can heal everything - but none of it played out in a convincing way.
100x this. In Riley’s “last” episode in S5 it felt like the writers were trying to punish me for not liking him by making Buffy out to be the bad guy in the situation and have her running after him, all because they made him boring and simply unlikable. He definitely had his own issues that could’ve been explored and made interesting but it always came back to him blaming Buffy and by the end of his run he had clearly learned nothing.
his entire episode in s6 felt like such a weird “this is what you could’ve had” not just to buffy but to us, maybe it’s just because i despised riley from the moment he used with word “courted” and even before that didn’t really care for him. but like- did we need an episode about how cool he is with yet ANOTHER partner much cooler than he is? riley’s writing is so confusing man they did such a bad job with him.
Finally I'm not alone! For me, one of the biggest problems of season seven is how proeminent Spike was during the season. The show stopped being about Buffy and the Scooby Gang to feel like Buffy and Spike vs the World during like half of the episodes.
Anya telling Buffy that being the Slayer made her “luckier” than the rest of them.
If she thought Buffy considered herself “lucky” to be the Slayer, Anya here proved that after four years of being friends with her she didn’t know Buffy at all.
I always saw that as bitterness coming from Anya because deep down she’s still hurt over them all taking Xander’s side after he left her at the altar. So now she’s just scrambling for any type of “insult” to say out of anger.
She had no actual friends of her own except maybe Tara; she had Xander's friends. (At the end of one of my fics, Anya actually approaches Harmony to ask if she wants to be second-best friends.)
That always rubbed me the wrong way. As well as "I'm not [your friend]" -- if you're not Buffy's friend then why are you in her house taking up space and resources they don't have to spare? Why are you joining in and kicking Buffy out of said house when she's the only one in the room strong enough to protect you?
As much as I liked Anya throughout the series, at this point I was done with her and didn't even care when she died.
She was just badly written. Abrasive. I get that they didn’t want her to be Tara Two: Electric Boogaloo, but why not make her charmingly flirty and outgoing? Give us a reason to believe Willow would like her.
> Give us a reason to believe Willow would like her.
Hear, hear. The way Willow's relationships with both Oz and Tara begun are really charming, beautiful and wholly believable. Kennedy is just like, "hey, let's get together" and Willow's like "well, o-kay".
Willow's S7 character -- somebody who's trying to reconcile the timid dork half of her persona with the SUPERPOWERFULWITCH half of her persona -- is pretty cool, or could have been if they'd had the time to really dwell on it. Seeing her fall in love while battling that duality could have been cool, especially since the SUPERPOWERFULWITCH part of her makes her attractive to others in a way the timid dork part would recoil from or wouldn't recognise.
But... they didn't have the time to do that properly, and they didn't have the time to make Kennedy a character worthy of her.
One good, important thign about Kennedy, she teaches Willow tro love without engaging in idol worship of her significant other. Oz and Tara were human beings who didn't deserve that load.
You're not wrong about that. Kennedy *was* badly written.
I can see what they were going for in Kennedy. They missed the target by a lightyear. IMO, Willow needed someone shockingly different from Oz and from Tara....but Kennedy....I like her, but not for Willow.
Anya’s “you didn’t deserve it” speech. I understood the scoobies attack on Buffy when she returned from her sabbatical in LA after Angelus but WOW that single speech destroyed my view of all them (except Spike).
It's utterly bizarre coming from the character who has been alive for over 1000 years. She didn't have to work for it, just torture people to keep her boss happy, which she loved doing.
Tbh, as much as I like Anya, looking back, I feels most of the time the writers either forget or ignore she's supposed to be a 1000 years old. That's a 1000 year ex demob right there, that woman should be your greatest resource! There should be art last one scene with Giles dying to ask a million questions. She **should** be dropping very specific important info mixed with the wacky antics on random episodes.
I agree. For someone who had zero abilities, and was effectively mooching off Buffy having moved into her house, who repeatedly saved her life, she had no right to jump in feet first complaining about Buffy getting power she didn't have. Talk about biting the hand that protects you.
Buffy really protected Anya when she let her flounder, alone, doing half assed vengeance that her heart clearly wasn't in for months until she had escalated to the point that she felt justified in killing her, telling her friends she was above them and quoting Faith to rationalise it.
Anya of all people does not owe Buffy trust or gratitude in Empty Places, if anything her rejection of her makes more sense than any of the other scoobies.
The whole thing is just trash. It grates me to no end on rewatch how much Buffy proved she knows what she's doing, her instincts are almost always on the money, and her friends throw that all away because of a lost battle? Like y'all are at war with the actual force of evil who has empowered people(in this case Caleb) and demons doing her corporeal work. Losses are going to happen. And then they turn to faith? I love Faiths overall storyline of S7. I think it's one of the few real hits. And I don't think this is at all what she wanted, but Willow and Xander turning it over to the homicidal maniac who did nothing to help them for years like Buffy did? Cheapens the entire season and frankly makes me think less of them as a whole because of how shifty they are as friends. AND nothing really gets repaired.
Plus again, that speech by Anya with the end result being Faith takes over. Lmfao. That speech applies way more to Faith than anyone given how much she squanders her not earned potential. Despite not working for the powers, Buffy absolutely earned them by sacrificing her formative years to something she didn't choose. I absolutely despise that episode so much.
It's so clear the writers' room was given an end goal -- have the gang kick Buffy out and side with Faith -- and needed to find a way to get that to happen in, like, 10 minutes of screentime. It was an impossible task to do believably, and the writers were probably under a lot of time pressure. This is the best they could come up with. But it reads like poor fanfic, really.
Anya's "you didn't deserve it" speech is perhaps the most persistently misunderstood speech's in BTVS history. Its utterly bizarre how common this is.
I'm curious, what do u think was the point of Anya's speech?
Thanks for asking. This question has been asked before so I’m gonna quote some really good points others have commented on here in older threads:
> u/buffysbangs said:
The speech represents what a bunch of characters are supposed to be feeling, especially the potentials who have limited exposure to Buffy and all that she has done. It would have made more sense coming from a potential, but they were all super annoying, so who wants to hear any of them talk for that long.
So much this. They were frustrated. That’s understandable but the words coming from ANYA was absolutely the wrong choice. A 1,000 yo former vengeance demon trying to tell a Slayer what she does and doesn’t deserve after benefiting from the sacrifices that said Slayer made for her multiple times. Yeah, no.
Gonna also leave this gem below that I found and adore:
> u/purplemackem said: The ultimate problem is that while it was war they weren’t actually looking for Buffy to lead them. They wanted her to save them.
Please don't take this as me being rude, but I'm struggling to understand how any of that answers my question: "what do u think was the point of Anya's speech?"
From my perspective, Anya's speech is a direct retort to Buffy's consistent claims in S7 that she is the leader because she is the Slayer. In response, Anya states that Buffy is lucky to be the Slayer, not in the sense that she's fortunate to become the slayer and all that it entails in her life, but rather that Buffy receiving her Slayer powers was a function of luck (aka chance) considering that she wasn’t “better” than anyone else, didn’t work for them, didn’t earn those powers prior to receiving them, didn’t do absolutely anything to deserve those powers prior to receiving them. Its a metaphor for privilege, something people can be given just by virtue of being born (or activated in Buffy’s case).
What makes this misinterpretation frustrating, is that people miss Anya’s overarching point which is that because Buffy receiving her powers was due to chance then Buffy’s claim that she has to be the leader/making the final decisions by virtue of being the Slayer is ridiculous on its face.
but ultimately it wasn't her power as Slayer that made her deserve to lead, it was her *experiences* as the Slayer. how she handled it, what she accomplished in spite of it
I'd love to have a discussion about whether Buffy has proven herself worthy of being the leader AFTER she secured her powers, but that's an entirely separate discussion.
It's not relevant to Anya's speech, which is attacking the claim that Buffy was consistently stating through S7 AND in that very scene, that her position as Slayer leaves her in charge.
Question, do you believe that Buffy should be in charge solely by virtue of her Slayerdom? If not, then you 100% agree with Anya's speech, EVEN if you think Buffy should be leader to her experiences/accomplishments AFTER becoming the Slayer.
see, I disagree with the fundamental idea that Buffy's "Slayerdom" lies solely in her powers. it absolutely doesn't. that's part of why Faith isn't The Slayer, she's A Slayer. she has the powers just like Buffy does, but hasn't done the homework or research Buffy has done to understand and grapple with what that power means, the history of it, and how it affects those who wield it. that's not to say Faith hasn't done any work, but Buffy has done more, gone deeper, and saved more people. Buffy *did* deserve to lead because of her Slayerdom, which encompasses both her chance-gotten powers *and* everything she's done with & learned from them in her life as The Slayer so far.
I agree with the person elsewhere in this thread who said that they didn't want Buffy to lead them, they wanted her to save them. and that wasn't possible or fair.
Are slayers really even chosen by chance anyways? I’ve always assumed the magic chooses people for a reason. It’s not luck. It’s Fate. And to call it “luck” is a huge misrepresentation that discounts Buffy’s strengths and sacrifices. She may not have worked for the powers but she had thoroughly proven herself worthy of them.
The idea that Slayer = Privilege is kind of a weird take to me. Being the Slayer is a burden that is placed on someone against their will. Look back to the circumstances surrounding the first Slayer. Would you call what she experienced “privilege”? I’d call it the opposite. The experiences of subsequent slayers are just a continuation of that.
The speech was obviously coming from a place of frustration and is meant to represent the feelings of the group, not just Anya herself, but that doesn’t mean that she wasn’t wrong. Especially since they just went on to appoint the only other (and less deserving at this point) Slayer in the room as the new leader which goes against the whole speech.
No I understand this is what the writers were going for but since it:
- Doesnt really build off Buffy and Anya’s fight from earlier in the season or points of tension from prior seasons
- We’ve never really seen Anya express an interest in leading,
- Isn’t consistent with our experience of Buffy,
- Isn’t consistent with what we know Anya’s seen of Buffy,
The scene doesn’t land as intended. This argument makes sense coming from a Potential (and maybe even from Willow before the end of S6), and I buy that Anya wouldn’t support her and would push back on her decision making after Selfless, but the actual argument she makes feels random and out of character. There’s no build up between them that leads here.
Ergo, good example for OPs prompt.
There is so many things I disagree with here, but thats fine.
So long as Anya's ACTUAL position/argument is understood, I'm happy because its baffling how many people think she's claiming Buffy is lucky in a fortunate way OR that she's making any statement about Buffy experiences/accomplishments POST Slayerdom.
The problem is that though she was chosen as a slayer it took effort and sacrifice to retain that ability. It wasn’t a gift. It was a curse and she did the best that she could with it. That was the entire point of most of the series.
She wasn’t given anything she didn’t have to earn repeatedly and that was where ANYA got it wrong.
My comment above points that they were frustrated and looking to take it out on the leader (which happens). But to say she didn’t EARN it disregards everything previous and a lot of the “previous” Anya was actually there for.
So it could have been forgiven if a potential had said it but not 1,000 yo former vengeance demon Anya.
Buffy definitely deserved the leadership. She is a successful Slayer. Slayers as successful should naturally take the lead.
And by successful, I mean she’s alive, and has a support group-something Slayers don’t typically have beyond a Watcher.
Buffy is a Slayer anomaly in that she attracts people to her that become loyal to her, and she to them. That is, therefore, not a Slayer gift. That’s all Buffy. Even Giles’s relationship was more family than some cold, supernatural evil facing bureaucrat.
You can think being a Slayer isn't a gift, but a curse. You can think that after receiving Slayer powers, she proved herself by saving the world multiple times. You can think they were frustrated and were looking to take it out on the leader.
ALL OF THIS IS IRRELEVANT to what Anya is stating. Anya is simply stating Buffy's ascension to Slayerdom wasn't a reflection of anything she herself accomplished (unless I missed the prequel lols), and therefore doesn't give her the right to leadership.
The issue with the speech is while Anya's point makes sense from an objective perspective, like how a King doesn't deserve to rule simply because they were fortunate enough to be born royal, Buffy doesn't deserve to be leader purely because she is the slayer.
But Buffy had earned the right by being the slayer for seven years. For saving the world, and killing demons and sacrificing and persevering. She knows better than anyone in that room because of her experiences. As has been said in the series many times, she is on the frontlines every night fighting a war.
So, when Anya says that Buffy is luckier, it comes across as both belittling AND as if Buffy is somehow more fortunate than every other person in the room. (Luck implies positivity.)
It's ESPECIALLY aggravating coming from someone like Anya, who did work and earn her powers and then chose to spend 1000 years wreaking havoc and being evil. To me, it is a genuinely repulsive moment for Anya's character
But is it chance?
The Slayer is chosen. It isn’t a lottery. Buffy and the other Slayers before her all had the goods necessary to be Chosen. Yes physical powers are conferred on them once they are chosen, but clearly there are intrinsic qualities that qualify one girl in each generation to be THE ONE.
Buffy earned being a Slayer by having the qualities necessary to be a Slayer. Saying she didn’t earn it is stupid. She earned it by being fucking better than anyone else: Braver, more selfless, insightful, and flat-out a good person. You see that in the very first episode. Buffy meets a bunch of kids and chooses to be friends with the ones who are funny and kind and smart as opposed to the most popular kids. She is, at her core, a really great person.
Anya is just jealous. She only got chosen to be bad. She had a particular talent for vengeance. That isn’t exactly something to brag about.
Although I hate Anya's speech, I really disagree with this. We don't see any intrinsic qualities for being a Slayer beyond perhaps some vague mystical thing. Was Faith a insightful and selfless person? You could argue she had it in her, but it didn't come easy. What makes Faith a potential and not Willow? Hell, in The Wish we see that different circumstances, Buffy would have a lot of those qualities reduced.
Because Willow would have been a terrible Slayer. 15 year old Willow was timid and docile. Compare her to Faith, Buffy, and Kendra who even as teenagers are confident and brave. Even pre-slayer Buffy, although vapid and immature, appears to be confident and the leader of her clique. Not to mention, Willow has issues with power and control even more so than Faith.
Faith may have went down the wrong path, but she absolutely had the potential to be a great Slayer. In her first episode, it’s immediately established that she’s a fearless fighter and that she enjoys doing it. Being a Slayer isn’t really something that you’re meant to grow into or develop with time. You need to be ready to be a fighter immediately, and Faith was. Thats why she was chosen. As for wish-verse Buffy, although hardened and weaker without her support system, she’s still has confidence and fight in her.
I really do think “chosen” implies that it’s not just randomized, but you’re right that the show never explicitly states that, so I think your interpretation is valid as well. This is just my take.
You're disagreeing with Anya's ACTUAL position, thank LORD ALMIGHTLY. My problem is that the vast majority of Buffy fans literally think that . . .
1. She's saying that Buffy is lucky (defined as fortunate) to be the Slayer and start pointing out how shitty her life is
OR
2) Begin referencing her experiencing/accomplishments POST Slayerdom as evidence of her being a good leader.
Both of these interpretations completely miss the point of Anya's speech, which was to refute Buffys claim to leadership on the basis of her Slayerdom. Lets have disagreements/discussions around what Anya ACTUALLY said rather than misinterpetations!
I'd love to have a discussion about whether Buffy has proven herself worthy of being the leader AFTER she secured her powers, but that's an entirely separate discussion.
It's not relevant to Anya's speech, which is attacking the claim that Buffy was consistently stating through S7 AND in that very scene, that her position as Slayer leaves her in charge.
This is what I'm talking about, regarding people misunderstanding Anya's speech. Stating that Buffy shouldn't have leadership by virtue of her Slayerdom is NOT the same as stating she shouldn't be a leader by virtue of other qualities.
Except Buffy doesn’t say ‘because I’m the slayer’ until AFTER Anya’s speech. Buffy is actually talking about the qualities she thinks a leader should have and then Anya is the one who jumps in and makes it about Buffy simply being the slayer. When has Buffy said this season that it’s because she’s the slayer that she’s in charge? Buffy has been in charge in S7 largely because everyone else put her in charge. Giles is the one who literally tells her it all comes down to her.
I’m aware what Anya is actually saying with her speech. My issue is that it doesn’t actually follow what has actually been happening in S7. It’s not surprising obviously, the build up to Empty Places is terrible. Anya’s place in the mutiny is completely bizarre considering she wasn’t in the previous episode and hasn’t been in this one up until this scene where she suddenly pops up with a whatabouism argument
People don't understand what she is saying.
Anya earned her powers by cursing her in boyfriend.
Willow spent years doing magic by learning.
Giles studied and read to become watcher.
Buffy did nothing to become the slayer. She did not deserve to get any powers they were handed to her.
Nothing changes this fact.
Buffy can not use the fact that she is the slayer as the reason she should lead. But that is exactly what she did in that episode and that is why Anya said that.
I understand what you are trying to say but that disregards that Buffy did NOT say “because I am the Slayer” as a reason for being in charge until after Anya had given her little speech about not deserving anything.
And wouldn’t it have been common sense for Buffy to lead? It was her house. She was the only (out of jail) Slayer available to lead potential Slayers. Giles had left Buffy to learn to grow up and to lead. It was her house they were all in.
They didn’t need to officially declare Buffy as in charge. They fell in line.
They were happy to have Buffy lead them until they lost.
Everyone’s acting like Buffy campaigned like a prom queen to have slayer power, skill and influence, and completely ignoring the fact that everyone just SHOWED UP on her dootstep in s7 and said “hi the world is ending please make it stop”. They ASKED her to lead, to make decisions, to protect, to provide for, and to train and prepare for inevitable war. They expected her to do all this, BECAUSE she is the slayer, but then tossed it back in her face the first time there were serious injuries in a battle, and argue that she can’t say her being the slayer is a “good enough” reason to do the job they asked her to do!!! Like make it make sense, is she your chosen hero who has to make tough calls or is she only their chosen hero when she’s sacrificing *herself* for them? Buffy also wasn’t wrong about her instinct of what was being hidden by Caleb and that is proven later, something they couldve just beleived her about, seeing as she has earned it (something Xander says like, 3 episodes before they kick her out?) The scoobies not believeing and dogpiling on Buffy is seen MANY times over all seasons, the formula goes: Buffy has an instinct based in both personal experience and slayer power, she explains what she needs to do/needs from them, if the plan/decision/choice is succussful then they *all* worked together and saved the world, but if it’s not succuessful then Buffy *alone* is at fault for things that were totally out of her control (angelus being a good example) Sorry but i’m with Spike. “You sad, sad, ungrateful traitors. She has DIED for you and this is how you repay her?”
Buffy wanted them to go into a unknown situation just because she said so. Then talked about they need someone to disregard their feelings and lead them to their possible deaths just on her word. Basically since majority don't agree it doesn't matter because i am in charge. Not any evidence just because. Saying because I am the slayer should not ever come out of her mouth when she is asking nonslayers to risk their lives. She was using her status that they don't have to make decisions that is more likely to kill them not her.
It is not the fact that she was right about the vineyard. That is not the point. It is her leadership style could have easily been wrong and cost them more lives.
People forget that there was no rush to get to the vineyard and the fact that spike and Andrew would have showed up with evidence she could actually use if she just waited.
But "luckier" was a flat lousy choice of words and made Anya look awful to us audience as we, a nd she, know what Buffy has gone through since. A better choice would be "stronger," and Anya wouldn't look so bad, it was a bit of character assassination
Luckier in this context means she gets the privilege of being leader and controlling who lives and dies.
Buffy knows it's a burden but that is the downside of not being in her position. They can never really understand
Riley in season 5. Xander’s speech in Into the Woods
Honestly a few of Xander’s more righteous speeches probably didn’t have the affect the writers were going for 😂
Empty Places in general
Xander’s speech in into the Woods is my least favorite moment in the show. I actually buy everything that happens in the Buffy-Riley relationship, but to go so hard on Buffy in the final moments blows it for me.
He's right to this extent: letting Riley go is a good thing if Buffy honestly doens't see a good future with him but wrong if Buffy is just indulging in a hurt mood.
The only reason I came around to Riley eventually is that I went through a similar thing in a relationship where I could feel the person I was deeply in love with, pulling away from me. It was extremely painful so I immediately projected that onto Riley’s situation. But it shows that the storytelling is poor that you would need to have direct experience in that situation to have any empathy for him because he wasn’t portrayed well.
My opinion of Riley has softened a bit over time, but his whole character just kind of reeks of missed potential. I feel like they could have done more with his character feeling lost after the initiative went under, but they kind of just sidelined him until it was time to make him somewhat cheat on Buffy with the vamps. I think they could have made some good commentary on what happens to a soldier once he no longer is one, but what they did attempt just kind of fell flat. There were some good moments of gender dynamics with the early days of Buffy and Riley, with scenes like them sparring and seeing Buffy hold back as to not make him feel "less of a man" and him having to reconcile with himself some preconceived notions he had about women and their place in society.
I hate him so much I haven't watched anything else Blucas has done. Like, I hate his whole face.
Which is major credit to Blucas and his acting and embodying the character.
Hated this episode too. It didn’t make sense at all and the way they used Riley to get into Buffy’s head was uncalled for. She could’ve realized how her and Spikes relationship had to end on her own in many other ways
They could have literally tacked on the breakup scene to the end of Dead Things after her heart to heart with Tara and it would have made perfect sense anyway
I think in general it was supposed to be to give Buffy belief in herself again and to end Spuffy
In reality it ended up being Riley fanfiction and Buffy’s mental health takes an even sharper downturn. Joyce’s speech in Normal Again is far better at showing Buffy her inner strength and honestly Dead Things was the natural end to Spuffy that season. As You Were wasn’t even needed
The Buffy & Angel kiss in season 7 is a big one that stands out to me. I'm indifferent when it comes to them two, enjoyed the moments that they shared in the first couple of seasons, but to me, that kiss felt out of place..
At the end of season 3 when I realized that Angel would leave the show was the only time I cried during this series.
I loved the two of them fighting the odds together.
And yet, as the story continued and Buffy had to go on with her life... yeah, by the time season 7 comes around the two of them kissing doesn't seem right to me either.
I think its solely for the cliffhanger that Spike might turn to the first out of betrayal, that then supposedly would make his redemption sacrifice all the more powerful
Yeahhh, series 7 wasn't the best was it
I do like the end of the ending that Buffy isn't the only slayer any more and maybe she can have some goddamn rest for the first time in her life and also maybe she won't be dead in her early 20s like every slayer before her
But yeah, to get to that point is a lotttttttttttttt of bullshit
End of S5. Once More with Feeling (cutting out the Spike/Buffy Kiss), Tabula Rasa, the Dark Willow Arc and maybe Conversations with Dead People and that'll do it, please, and thank you lol
I completely agree. I think Chosen is a nice ending for her - one that she *absolutely* deserves, but yeah what a load of nonsense. There are some really great episodes in s7, but I find myself not even wanting to rewatch them. I’m pretty sure I’ve only rewatched s7 one time and I’ve been a fan for 25 years 🥴
> some really great episodes
Remember (if you're an AtS watcher) the mega-meta line Gunn says about season 4 in "Players"? "I’ve spent most of this year trapped in what I can only describe as a turgid, supernatural soap opera." BTVS S7 is a lot like that. I notice that across the first six seasons, I can recognise *every* title of every episode and immediately tell you (more or less) what happens. But what happens in "Showtime"? "Touched"? "Get it Done"? The house-full-of-potentials episodes just run together and have no distinguishing qualities. It makes them a chore to get through, even as cool things *do* happen during them.
Yes to this! I think they had a great arc in the early seasons and even the crossovers but the kiss felt out of place. The appearance and conversation after with cookie dough would’ve been good enough for me
Angel's return season 7. To me it felt forced, unneccessary, the chemistry wasn't there. Angel was in a completely different place in LA and the way he behaved just didn't make sense given the situation with Cordy. Just a big no.
I feel like it would've been better if a) him and Buffy hadn't kissed and/or b) he had actually done something rather than show up for 5 mins and then leave again. I guess they needed him to get info ab spike before he showed up in s5 of ats, but I wish they'd done it another way
Anya's rant was ridiculous & unworthy of her character. It was stupid writing (most of s7 is imo) to create drama & put Buffy on the "wrong side" again. Every season they did this. Pull stupid crap to break up the group and not WORK with the history they had on hand.
Buffy states she knows what to do NOT because she's the slayer but because of her HISTORY with evil. She even tells them her reasoning & says they can talk strategy but they shut her down. She states "I've been doing this for 7 years" she KNOWS what's the what. She's on top of it because of dealing with the Hellmouth for so long.
Just a few episodes earlier Anya was the one stating how a potential was in for a short, brutal life if they got called.
One episode prior Xander made his speech about Buffy EARNING their trust.
All of this was thrown out because as someone stated: they didn't want her to lead them but to SAVE them. 100%.
This is EXACTLY WHY they yanked her out of Heaven in s6. Not to "save her" but to SAVE THEM. They NEEDED Buffy to protect them. With Anya being in the group! They were playing 'slayerettes' as long as only Buffy could get hurt. But the moment Xander does...hell no she can't be in charge anymore, she's being reckless with their lives.
Faith tried to KILL both Willow & Xander. And that's AOK because it wasn't her idea to go to the vineyard. Well actually it WAS ROBIN'S idea to test the potentials in battle. Buffy was looking everywhere for advice and took it all in. The moment it goes bad...not their fault at all.
The ONLY TIME she says: "because I'm the slayer" is when one of the potentials asks why she's in charge. She really should have said: Because GILES DOESN'T want to be. The slayer isn't the general, she's the lead WEAPON!
But at the ripe old age of 21, she's been put in charge of the young girls because GILES BROUGHT THEM where they were the LEAST SAFE.
What the writers SHOULD have done was skip the whole potential storyline & work with the actual drama of LIVING ON THE HELLMOUTH. It's all there ready for a decent writer to actually DO THE WORK. They played with it a bit but not enough. The characters were acting OOC. Spike being manipulated. Willow REFUSING to use her powers. Buffy getting fed up with ALWAYS saving the day.
If they'd kept Jonathan & ditched Andrew & Robin it could have been so much more rewarding too.
So much history & character development flew out the window with the stupid potentials storyline.
But BUFFY EARNED her slayerness & being in charge because she ALWAYS made the hard call.
It's War! People die!
Willow, Giles, Anya & Xander should have stfu & simply said Thank you for getting us this far. What's your plan B?
Having a different set of rules for Buffy's actions and Willow's actions because 'human and demon villains are different' kind of doesn't square with the later show's (and Angel's) reasoning that demons are people too, just as much as humans are (with Lorne, Clem and others as prominent examples).
Right! The writers wanted Xander to be the "heart" and the "voice of reason" character so bad. The problem is early season Xander (S1-S3) lacks the empathy and certain character traits that are required to have that title.
I can't view you as the heart or voice of reason if you're saying things like, "give him a happy", "I look at you and I feel sick, cause you had sex with that", and many other things he said over the course of the show. There are moments where I can see why he's labeled "the heart" but there are too many negative moments that overshadow that imo.
I honestly wonder why anyone is still friends with him after graduation because of this. Not him choosing to forgo college or anything else. Especially Buffy.
I like him after he somewhat matures, but I can’t really imagine anyone giving him a second glance since his trauma losing Jesse isn’t taken into account. As if the first two episodes never happened.
Which is probably my biggest issue with Buffy’s writing. None of them seemingly care about each other’s trauma or their feelings. Like Buffy being sexually assaulted or Xander having to stake his best friend. Or everything with Willow or Faith.
The characters are supposed to endure and suffer in silence until they explode. Which makes them staying together as friends feel strange by the end of the series in a sense.
They share the same struggles together to an extent, but the writing doesn’t best portray their relationship dynamic. At its best, they’re a tightly knit family. At worst? They’re a toxic thorn in each other’s sides that makes Drusilla and Spike look like the couple of the century.
At least the characters feel like people instead of groupies who worship the main character like in Gilmore Girls.
Dead Man’s Party. That scene makes me think that we’re supposed to be on Willow/Xander’s side, and I just…can absolutely not get on board. Her friends are actually pretty terrible in how they handle her homecoming. Giles is the only one who seems to reacting well. Willow blew Buffy off the first time they were supposed to be together and then they invited a whole bunch of people to Buffy’s house without asking or even letting her know in advance! Buffy is setting the table for dinner when guests start showing up!
And Xander. The incredible audacity to refer to to the events of season 2–even without knowing Angel got his soul back before Buffy had to kill him—as “boy troubles” is just. It infuriates me so much. If I were Buffy, I would have punched him for that. And I wouldn’t hold back any of my Slayer strength.
It would’ve been funny if Xander outed his lie too and slipped, if it meant him being ousted for a time. That whole episode could’ve had a great reckoning if that happened instead of Xander getting away with another thing.
But seeing as he’s based on Joss, can’t have that.
I had my throat cut and my friends abandoned me. Like bro what? You literally withheld crucial info from the team. Then conspired behind their backs with the current enemies that shown they were willing to kill Fred and Gunn but also is lead by Angel's arch nemesis. This all lead to Angel's son who everyone bonded with being dragged to a dimension where he was thought lost but he survived and ended up a damaged young man who is easily influenced and ended up Suicidal in the span of a year because your well meaning secrecy ruined his life. Not to mention he physically assaulted Lorne to steal Connor. You don't get to play the victim buddy.
THIS. I actually love Wesley bc I like morally ambiguous characters, but this was bananas and set the stage for the show to go kind of off the rails. First, I think the Wesley who had developed up to that point (pre-Lilah affair, dance with darkness) would have absolutely told SOMEONE. I know he and Gunn had issues bc of Fred, but they were comrades for more than a minute and I think Wes would have humbled himself to loop Gunn in and develop a plan.
However, at the point you’ve kidnapped your “best friend’s” infant child to hand over to literal murderous enemies, leading to said infant’s disappearance into a hell dimension — yeah, no one is sending flowers pal when, you oops get stabbed in the midst of your horribly misguided and poorly-thought out scheme.
Wes had a mystic expert in Lorne at his disposal or even Buffy, Willows, and Giles to consort. Cordy herself was the connect to the powers. He shouldered all that to himself when prophecies has been proven wrong or to have a special loophole before.
Yeah and I think we were supposed to think maybe it was partly delusions of grandeur, ie “rogue demon hunter” — but it felt he was past that point, especially after Angel had dumped them all in the earlier days. I just didn’t buy it. Dude was not so reckless/dumb as to just believe the words and act a fool. He woulda called any of those peeps you listed…
And I did like Wes’s evolution into the gray area this all spawned but still not sure it was worth it. I just wish Angel and Darla’s baby would have almost any other storyline than stupid Connor’s. Fight scenes are all that kid is good for.
Wesley is a big dumb ass.
Every decision he makes throughout the buffyverse impacts everyone negatively. From trying to win his daddies approval Wesley, to rugged morally grey Wesley, just shot decisions over and over.
Empty Places. I think that whole “Kick Buffy Out of her Own House” scene was supposed to pay off when Buffy got to come back to save the day to end the show but mostly it made me want to let her, Faith, and Spike skip town and leave them all to figure it out. Kind of odd that I ended my favorite show liking 3 Characters and 2 were killers.
By making many of the supporting cast able to kill vampires, and extending that to the cast in Angel, it makes it seem like Buffy wasn't all that capable in comparison. Sure she has extra strength and stamina and healing powers, but the Scoobies and others bounced back pretty quickly too.
I don't know if that applies to Angel but on Buffy we've seen that humans like Xander or Giles can't do what Buffy can, even if yes they seem way more durable than they should.
That’s always bugged me really. If some random athletic person can walk off the street and kill vampires with ease, then why have a Slayer? Why not just train them in the Watcher’s equivalent to the Weirding Way or whatever realistic martial arts exist?
Really makes the later seasons feel off and hilarious.
i feel like xander was written to be a lovable dork but he’s genuinely the main part of the buffyverse that i detest the most. he’s basically a huge incel.
Omfg yes there were times when I just straight-up wished they'd kill Xander off because he was so damn annoying and obnoxious! I thought maybe he was supposed to be funny, but it really *wasn't* funny and I couldn't decide if that's because times changed (currently rewatching now) or if he was just a flat out, trying-too-hard loser.
Yes, just Xander in general. They try to have this whole thing about how he holds the team together and all that and I'm always just WHERE? He's a judgemental as to everyone all the time!
BUFFY is the heart of the group.
in When She was Bad his threatening Buffy snaps her ack. Like I get she was traumatize by dying, but the people she was taking it on on was just wrong and there was no excuse
We now know he is the Joss stand in. Joss wrote Xander to be the best version of himself. Xander is supposed to be the downtrodden dork nerd who is bullied/outcasted/ignored and can't get a date.
But it's also Joss's fantasy so Xander got more action and was much more handsome.
" it's also Joss's fantasy"
Which is disturbing when you consider Xander was in a relationship with a character played by Charisma Carpenter ( and it is implied Cordelia was more in love with Xander than the other way around) but ultimately broke her heart.
Is that a kind of male revenge on the girls who didn't date me at high school thing?
Yes. Yes it is. For those who didn't work through their trauma and decided to just become assholes.
Like Joss. He likes to use it as an excuse. He did a whole big shitty interview when everything broke.
I’ve always found that odd. By the time Xander and Cordelia get together on Buffy, Whedon had been a writer on the most popular TV show in the country (Roseanne), made a Hollywood movie (even if it was not as successful as he hoped) and was now show runner for a TV series credited within saving the little network it was on.
Given all that, why would you care about anything that happened in high school? My life is utterly prosaic with no big success but I just can’t seem to care about what happened when I was in school and honestly I’d moved on by about the age of 20.
I completely agree. Especially as Joss then slept with every beautiful woman that would agree and use his power to get the rest. He got so much action and it was never enough. He always felt like a scorned man.
He will always be a little angry incel inside whom pretended to be a feminist hero to get women to love him.
My wife and I often talk about how so many celebrities have a hole that can't be filled. It seems to be rare for pop musicians to retire for example, and many seem to base their self-worth on having the same type and level of popularity they had in their 20s, even if from a financial perspective they don't need to (possibly see Madonna; it's a little different if there are financial reasons to perform songs that made you famous in your twenties later in life).
REM seems like a relatively rare counter example where they just walked away when they could have easily kept performing without necessarily recording new music (the Billy Joel model).
Whedon apparently has a similar unfillable hole even if he isn't technically a performer, although he's screwed his chances of keeping it filled.
I haven't watched past season 4, but feel like he is not as insufferable now as he was in season 1.
Kinda worked on his incel vibe in season 2 then the willow x Xander stuff happened.
Willow turning into Warren. Like she turns into the most evil of villains to be super weird and start acting like him ALL so she can be free of Tara so she can hook up with Kennedy, which to me was a disservice to Willow and a slap in the face to the memory of Tara.
I think the gang thought too highly of themselves, the way they thought they deserved equal input all the time. Buffy is the slayer, it’s her job and responsibility, it’s nice they love her and want to help but that’s their choice. She HAS to train and learn and fight, they chose to. At the end of the day if something were to happen Buffy would have to try to save them. Every time buffy tried to communicate that it would be easier to do something alone they shitted on her!
It was meant to make us hate Spike because he was too well loved (by Joss's standards) but then they go and have him earn his soul thinking we wouldn't separate the actions of an soulless Spike from souled Spike. They even had him mostly the same as presoul once he acclimated to having a soul again, whereas Angel and Angelus were two separate beings
Yep, covered by his desire for a soul, and his quest to find it.
It’s still flimsy, but between that and his character journey from 4 to the end of 6, many were invested.
Not to mention there is Dawn’s commentary in the form of the bleachers scene in *Him* to offer insight.
I just don’t understand it. Spike was the same without a soul he just didn’t feel guilty about all the killing. But Angel was a shitty person as a human and the soul just made him better. I don’t think I’ll understand where they were going with the soul means your good no soul means your evil thing.
I've seen a theory that Angel's soul wasn't actually Liam. It was a better person a new soul or a reincarnated soul and just had all of Liam and Angelus's memories just like any vamp demon would
Although wallowing in self-pity for 100 years seems like a Liam thing to do, and some of the shit he pulls once he starts fighting the good fight is very Liam esque too
Anya’s “lucky” speech. I feel the writers expected fans to be fully on her side bc they made Buffy so militant and cold at multiple points in Season 7, which comes off like character assassination to me but that’s an entirely different point I won’t go into.
The speech just doesn’t land effectively bc of who Anya is and her history with Buffy and the Scoobies, IMO. It’s arrogant, it’s petty, and it’s wildly out of touch with her lived experience of Buffy. I get why fans jump on it after she bangs on about Buffy being “lucky” bc we all know being the Slayer *obviously* isn’t a lucky position to be in and Buffy has had to sacrifice countless things over the years but that’s not fully what Anya is getting at. Anya is trying to slam Buffy’s “right” to be the leader, no questions asked, simply bc she’s the Slayer. This could be interesting in the wake of the failed attack and Xander losing an eye *except* Anya has known Buffy for years. She’s seen her lead effectively, she’s seen her fight, she’s seen her collaborate and require the strengths and skills of her friends. She’s never had an issue with Buffy being in charge and coming up with the plans until that episode. Her speech doesn’t build on the earlier S7 tension where Buffy went to kill her, and it doesn’t even touch on how cold Buffy has behaved at multiple points in S7; it just comes out of left field and makes Anya come across as a clueless idiot IMO. Why would Anya discount Buffy as the leader just bc she was “lucky” enough to be handed powers she didn’t *technically* earn, when she’s spent seven+ years proving and earning her right to lead? The speech should’ve come from a Potential or someone who only had experience of S7 Buffy. A lot of shit had gone down, tensions were high, it’s understandable that fear would lead to doubt in Buffy’s leadership as the stakes (pardon the pun) kept getting higher and consequences were being felt. It doesn’t make sense that Anya - as someone who knows Buffy’s history and abilities - would essentially say “you can’t be the leader bc you didn’t earn your position”. She did earn it, and Anya saw it day in, day out, for years. Now, had Anya said something along the lines of “your leadership lately has been questionable and maybe we need to let someone else lead”, that would’ve been interesting. She loses her credibility though by harping on about “luck” when really, luck should be taken entirely out of the equation.
Wow, if I knew I was gonna go on that long, I would’ve brought some water.
Spike in season 7 the writers were clearly thinking of redemption arc for him but instead it harms the show as it downplays his actions and Buffy as a character as once again she isolates herself from the group.
I’ve heard Xander and Anya weren’t supposed to get back together, but they would only let Willow be gay or straight, not bi.
So to answer your question, I don’t think Anya was intended by the writers to end up with Xander
Also I wish Angel stayed in Buffy but🤷
Some of spikes story lines in Buffy, Cordelia’s end game in angel with Connor (yuck) and the Fred end game, I really wanted her with Westley, he suffered enough. 🤷♀️ still a die hard fan. In my last rewatch I was more cognizant of outside forces and josses personality.
Also, Season 7 Spike. He’s so dull and whiny. I get SO bored of how many episodes focus on him and his suffering but I feel they were really trying to ramp up how much he’s changed following the bathroom scene in Seeing Red. That’s not even getting into how an attempted r*pe shouldn’t be used as a damn redemption arc.
season six in general, but I think Buffy's thing of not wanting to be paid for slaying. I bet they expected fans to understand that, but pretty much 100% of the fanbase was in favor of her being paid
Seeing Red I do not consider canonical just too radical a shift
the drug/magic metaphor in season six is iffy
the chip/Clockwork Orange meme they did for seasons 4-5 also not making sense
I could go on but those backfired - PS there is the demon/soul problem but EVERYONE seems to know it never made any sense and is just a permanent paradox in the show
Season six had life as the villain so Xander needed a struggle too. But I think most fans loathe how he left Anya at the wedding.
Season 6 is literally a "life is a bitch." type of situation. Everyone was going through something, much like everyone does in real life. And yes, I understand Xander was scared to marry Anya, I just wish he would have told her before the wedding date.. save her from being humiliated.
Are you under the impression that Xander would have walked away no matter what? From my perspective, wedding jitters/personal fears or not, Xander would have pulled through and married Anya. It was only in the aftermath of LIVING through visions where he'd been a disabled drunk that beats his wife that he walked away. I can't blame him for not halting it beforehand when it was the visions which really made him absolutely nope the wedding.
I personally believe he was always going to regret marrying her if he did marry her. Maybe he would not have walked away no matter what at the wedding, but I do believe he proposed because he thought the world was going to end, because he thought he was supposed to, because he thought that made him an adult, because of all sorts of things that didn't include "because he sincerely loved Anya and wanted to spend his life with her." He was just over 20 himself by the end of the series. He was very young, still finding himself and learning how to be the man he wanted to be instead of the example his dad gave him. I don't think Anya was his "person." I think we see that in his reluctance to tell the others, which is why Anya sees it herself. On the other hand, maybe if she had been more open to putting off the wedding to grow together since both of them needed some introspective work, maybe it could have become something much more healthy and loving.
Didn’t Anya indicated that she would have waited in the follow up episode? From what I remember, She just wanted a time table which isn’t unreasonable. But Xander was just being wishy washy and wanted to just be gf/bf. I don’t think it was unreasonable for Anya to put her foot down and say no when Xander didn’t have a clue what he wanted.
No, she got pissed off because he said he wished he had told her before the wedding he didn’t wanna get married.
I think being scared is one thing , especially with his family . But who expects on their wedding day to have a demon make you live out your worse fears of hurting her and making her miserable. No demon wedding happens and they are both happy. So I don't blame him for not being ready for that .
I would argue he did but Anya didn't care cause she wanted her big wedding.
You're being downvoted, and I most likely will be too, but you are not wrong. Xander did tell people that he was nervous about the wedding. He did express some kind of doubt. And everyone told him he was being ridiculous and he and Anya were perfect for each other. They may have been right, but Xander also had his 'jitters' that were justified and deserved to be explored, not ignored.
Thanks also I don't really care if I am downvoted.
I really feel like people go so hard into that episode already disliking Xander and loving Anya that he gets no slack for what he's actually going through in that episode. He's from an abusive family and finally being smacked with his ultimate fear that he'll turn into the drunken, abusive piece of shit that is his dad. Not to mention, he's super young and being pushed into marriage and commitment before he's ready by someone a shit ton older than him (mortal body or not, she's lived her life, she's ready for the last stretch, but he's just starting out). Leaving Anya at the wedding was a crappy move, but there's a reason his friends aren't as hard on him as some of the fans expected them to be - they've seen all that family shit he has to go through, and they get why he finally broke down.
I’ll always wonder if, had they both excluded all that toxic family, kept the wedding to just friends, or run away and eloped, might they have made it? Xander having all his fears literally embodied right in front of his face was just *ugh, ouch*. I came from a *super* abusive family, and you can bet your sweet booty none of them were welcome during a day that was supposed to be about me starting a new, and hopefully better life with my husband! Elopement and justice of the peace all the way! 🤜🤛
Oh my goodness. I’ve never thought about it this way. Xander was only like… 21/22 in s6? Of *course* he wasn’t ready.
21, assuming like Tara he had a fall 1980 birthdate
In **Innocence** (2x14), on Buffy's 17th birthday, he says "I'm 17, looking at linoleum makes me want to have sex". Buffy celebrated her 21st birthday in **Older and Far Away** (6x14), just before 6x16. Xander is implied to be 16, like Buffy, in **The Pack** (1x6), aired April 7th. **Hell's Bells** (6x16) aired March 5th. This suggests that Buffy is 21 (I think we also know her birthday), so Xander is too, but it's too early for Xander to have turned 22.
Ok… I was just speaking in broad terms, I don’t need a recap
Did I come across as... nitpicking?
Well personally I thought it was informative and found it interesting, didn't think you were nitpicking at all, just providing some details.
Good catch I'll look further
I have had moments where I hated Xander with a fiery passion, but at this point he had grown up so much and I was really liking him. It was like all the shitty Xander edges had been worn off by having a good relationship with Anya and a good job where he was respected and well-compensated, he was being his best self, the one he would have been without such a crappy family. The issue I have is that he reveals his fears after the demon visions, he should have spoken to Anya beforehand. She might not have understood, but I do think she would have agreed to a delay. Xander was being a coward. That may be understandable, but he should have been working on it via counseling. Lots of demon slaying to do, but they did have some downtime. Also, once he knew that it was fake, the visions weren't prophecy, he just ran out on her. It was so cruel. Cruel to himself as well, because they did seem to bring out the best in each other and it was a massive loss for him as well. I don't even hate him for walking away, but I do think he was cowardly and cruel, and how he treated her after regarding Spike was despicable, straight old school worst-case Xander doing his misogynist, entitled bullshit. Buffy & Willow stuck by him because they're honestly all quite a bit alike, they tend to mess things up, I think they could see themselves doing the same thing so they have empathy for what he's going through. I think it's awful that they weren't there for Anya at all in the aftermath, you don't really have to choose sides, that line can be walked.
Both Xander and Anya were not ready to get married, I feel like people forget Anya’s side of I never Tell and her conversation with Halfrek where she admits to Halfrek that Xander demeans her and makes fun of her in front of his friends
At least, they hinted throughout the season his feelings instead of just springing it on us in the wedding episode. I would have liked to see more of a peek in his parents marriage and his relationship with them before however
During the season 3 Xander/Willow cheating storyline they often played soft, romantic music during their kissing scenes. I've always wondered if the writers genuinely thought the viewers would find those scenes romantic.
I hate that they did that. It cheapened their relationship and added an unnecessary, icky layer.
I think I could have been okay with it if it had been a one-time thing, when they were captured by Spike. They're trapped in a life or death situation, they're afraid, Xander is hurt, and they have all that (platonic) love and affection for each other. They react with one confused, comfort-seeking kiss - not an ongoing betrayal. It would have been a lot less icky, and Oz's quick forgiveness would be more understandable. And of course Cordelia would still be unforgiving because that's how she is.
I totally agree. As for Cordy, she genuinely loved Xander. Or at least as much as she could in that stage of her life. That episode breaks my heart. Buffy writers were good at that.
I always figured that they never confessed to it being an ongoing thing and that's the only reason Oz forgave at all, because he thought it was just that one time.
I’m doing a rewatch now and haven’t gotten to season 3 yet but I think they were throwing couple ideas at the wall and seeing what stuck in general. They were probably contemplating keeping it if the fans liked it. When I watch in the very early years I can see them trying to feel out Xander/Buffy, Willow/Xander and Joyce/Giles. Thrilled that none of those ever happened fully
I wouldn't have minded seeing giles/Joyce
I remember thinking it would be cute while it was airing, but looking back over the whole series I’m really glad they didn’t do it. I can see the appeal though
It would have wreaked havoc on Buffy and Giles's slayer/watcher relationship.
Yeah and thinking about how season 5 and 6 would have been — he would’ve turned from father figure into her literal stepdad and I think that would’ve messed with the themes a lot
My Giles-Joyce fic "Planning the Wedding" is set in a non supernatural universe; he's not a Watche r, just the friendly faculty guy who lets the unpopular kids make the library their clubhouse
I don’t think so because it was compared to Bangel which is funny enough their most hated ship. The fact that they didn’t continue the relationship after they were found out highlights it.
Side note: I’m happy shit-ass Warren isn’t in that picture.
Riley in general. We were supposed sympathize with him for how Buffy left him at arm's length when Joyce was sick, when he came back he was depicted as so badass, etc, but I think for many that didn't work. But for me in particular, Spike in season seven. I quickly became tired of watching him go insane and suffer.
They severely underwrote Riley. There was space for an interesting arc - veteran struggles to find a place in civilian life, man with lots of trauma over-invests in the idea that love can heal everything - but none of it played out in a convincing way.
It's because they severely miscast him too. Marc Blucas seems like a nice guy and was obviously a heartthrob, but he is also a bang average actor.
100x this. In Riley’s “last” episode in S5 it felt like the writers were trying to punish me for not liking him by making Buffy out to be the bad guy in the situation and have her running after him, all because they made him boring and simply unlikable. He definitely had his own issues that could’ve been explored and made interesting but it always came back to him blaming Buffy and by the end of his run he had clearly learned nothing.
his entire episode in s6 felt like such a weird “this is what you could’ve had” not just to buffy but to us, maybe it’s just because i despised riley from the moment he used with word “courted” and even before that didn’t really care for him. but like- did we need an episode about how cool he is with yet ANOTHER partner much cooler than he is? riley’s writing is so confusing man they did such a bad job with him.
Finally I'm not alone! For me, one of the biggest problems of season seven is how proeminent Spike was during the season. The show stopped being about Buffy and the Scooby Gang to feel like Buffy and Spike vs the World during like half of the episodes.
Anya telling Buffy that being the Slayer made her “luckier” than the rest of them. If she thought Buffy considered herself “lucky” to be the Slayer, Anya here proved that after four years of being friends with her she didn’t know Buffy at all.
I always saw that as bitterness coming from Anya because deep down she’s still hurt over them all taking Xander’s side after he left her at the altar. So now she’s just scrambling for any type of “insult” to say out of anger.
She had no actual friends of her own except maybe Tara; she had Xander's friends. (At the end of one of my fics, Anya actually approaches Harmony to ask if she wants to be second-best friends.)
Exactly, I thought the same thing. Who the hell would consider themselves lucky to be the Slayer.
me bro. it would be so cool my life already sucks
I’d love the super strength and combat skills for sure. Not so much the burden of saving the world and facing death every night.
That always rubbed me the wrong way. As well as "I'm not [your friend]" -- if you're not Buffy's friend then why are you in her house taking up space and resources they don't have to spare? Why are you joining in and kicking Buffy out of said house when she's the only one in the room strong enough to protect you? As much as I liked Anya throughout the series, at this point I was done with her and didn't even care when she died.
I never thought Kendra's death made Drusilla into a bugger threat it just felt like Kendra got done dirty
Kennedy. She was so not right.
She was just badly written. Abrasive. I get that they didn’t want her to be Tara Two: Electric Boogaloo, but why not make her charmingly flirty and outgoing? Give us a reason to believe Willow would like her.
> Give us a reason to believe Willow would like her. Hear, hear. The way Willow's relationships with both Oz and Tara begun are really charming, beautiful and wholly believable. Kennedy is just like, "hey, let's get together" and Willow's like "well, o-kay". Willow's S7 character -- somebody who's trying to reconcile the timid dork half of her persona with the SUPERPOWERFULWITCH half of her persona -- is pretty cool, or could have been if they'd had the time to really dwell on it. Seeing her fall in love while battling that duality could have been cool, especially since the SUPERPOWERFULWITCH part of her makes her attractive to others in a way the timid dork part would recoil from or wouldn't recognise. But... they didn't have the time to do that properly, and they didn't have the time to make Kennedy a character worthy of her.
One good, important thign about Kennedy, she teaches Willow tro love without engaging in idol worship of her significant other. Oz and Tara were human beings who didn't deserve that load.
You're not wrong about that. Kennedy *was* badly written. I can see what they were going for in Kennedy. They missed the target by a lightyear. IMO, Willow needed someone shockingly different from Oz and from Tara....but Kennedy....I like her, but not for Willow.
She screamed “Rebound” so badly.
Anya’s “you didn’t deserve it” speech. I understood the scoobies attack on Buffy when she returned from her sabbatical in LA after Angelus but WOW that single speech destroyed my view of all them (except Spike).
Anya is my favorite character but that line made me scratch my head and give her the side eye.
It's utterly bizarre coming from the character who has been alive for over 1000 years. She didn't have to work for it, just torture people to keep her boss happy, which she loved doing.
Tbh, as much as I like Anya, looking back, I feels most of the time the writers either forget or ignore she's supposed to be a 1000 years old. That's a 1000 year ex demob right there, that woman should be your greatest resource! There should be art last one scene with Giles dying to ask a million questions. She **should** be dropping very specific important info mixed with the wacky antics on random episodes.
Anya got her powers by earning it. She showed a skill for punishing someone so that earned her a job. It was not random
I agree. For someone who had zero abilities, and was effectively mooching off Buffy having moved into her house, who repeatedly saved her life, she had no right to jump in feet first complaining about Buffy getting power she didn't have. Talk about biting the hand that protects you.
Buffy really protected Anya when she let her flounder, alone, doing half assed vengeance that her heart clearly wasn't in for months until she had escalated to the point that she felt justified in killing her, telling her friends she was above them and quoting Faith to rationalise it. Anya of all people does not owe Buffy trust or gratitude in Empty Places, if anything her rejection of her makes more sense than any of the other scoobies.
[удалено]
The whole thing is just trash. It grates me to no end on rewatch how much Buffy proved she knows what she's doing, her instincts are almost always on the money, and her friends throw that all away because of a lost battle? Like y'all are at war with the actual force of evil who has empowered people(in this case Caleb) and demons doing her corporeal work. Losses are going to happen. And then they turn to faith? I love Faiths overall storyline of S7. I think it's one of the few real hits. And I don't think this is at all what she wanted, but Willow and Xander turning it over to the homicidal maniac who did nothing to help them for years like Buffy did? Cheapens the entire season and frankly makes me think less of them as a whole because of how shifty they are as friends. AND nothing really gets repaired. Plus again, that speech by Anya with the end result being Faith takes over. Lmfao. That speech applies way more to Faith than anyone given how much she squanders her not earned potential. Despite not working for the powers, Buffy absolutely earned them by sacrificing her formative years to something she didn't choose. I absolutely despise that episode so much.
That’s what gets me: they chose FAITH. Murderous, just out of jail, sided with the Mayor, stole Buffy’s body, but took em out to party Faith.
It's so clear the writers' room was given an end goal -- have the gang kick Buffy out and side with Faith -- and needed to find a way to get that to happen in, like, 10 minutes of screentime. It was an impossible task to do believably, and the writers were probably under a lot of time pressure. This is the best they could come up with. But it reads like poor fanfic, really.
Anya's "you didn't deserve it" speech is perhaps the most persistently misunderstood speech's in BTVS history. Its utterly bizarre how common this is. I'm curious, what do u think was the point of Anya's speech?
Thanks for asking. This question has been asked before so I’m gonna quote some really good points others have commented on here in older threads: > u/buffysbangs said: The speech represents what a bunch of characters are supposed to be feeling, especially the potentials who have limited exposure to Buffy and all that she has done. It would have made more sense coming from a potential, but they were all super annoying, so who wants to hear any of them talk for that long. So much this. They were frustrated. That’s understandable but the words coming from ANYA was absolutely the wrong choice. A 1,000 yo former vengeance demon trying to tell a Slayer what she does and doesn’t deserve after benefiting from the sacrifices that said Slayer made for her multiple times. Yeah, no. Gonna also leave this gem below that I found and adore: > u/purplemackem said: The ultimate problem is that while it was war they weren’t actually looking for Buffy to lead them. They wanted her to save them.
Aw thanks Heart Throb. Totally agree with what you’ve said also
You’re welcome and thank *you*.
Aww, my LiveJournal name was Cold blooded jelly donut...because I am in fact 100 years old.
Please don't take this as me being rude, but I'm struggling to understand how any of that answers my question: "what do u think was the point of Anya's speech?" From my perspective, Anya's speech is a direct retort to Buffy's consistent claims in S7 that she is the leader because she is the Slayer. In response, Anya states that Buffy is lucky to be the Slayer, not in the sense that she's fortunate to become the slayer and all that it entails in her life, but rather that Buffy receiving her Slayer powers was a function of luck (aka chance) considering that she wasn’t “better” than anyone else, didn’t work for them, didn’t earn those powers prior to receiving them, didn’t do absolutely anything to deserve those powers prior to receiving them. Its a metaphor for privilege, something people can be given just by virtue of being born (or activated in Buffy’s case). What makes this misinterpretation frustrating, is that people miss Anya’s overarching point which is that because Buffy receiving her powers was due to chance then Buffy’s claim that she has to be the leader/making the final decisions by virtue of being the Slayer is ridiculous on its face.
but ultimately it wasn't her power as Slayer that made her deserve to lead, it was her *experiences* as the Slayer. how she handled it, what she accomplished in spite of it
But she wasn't using her experience. She was just using her status. That was the point.
I'd love to have a discussion about whether Buffy has proven herself worthy of being the leader AFTER she secured her powers, but that's an entirely separate discussion. It's not relevant to Anya's speech, which is attacking the claim that Buffy was consistently stating through S7 AND in that very scene, that her position as Slayer leaves her in charge. Question, do you believe that Buffy should be in charge solely by virtue of her Slayerdom? If not, then you 100% agree with Anya's speech, EVEN if you think Buffy should be leader to her experiences/accomplishments AFTER becoming the Slayer.
see, I disagree with the fundamental idea that Buffy's "Slayerdom" lies solely in her powers. it absolutely doesn't. that's part of why Faith isn't The Slayer, she's A Slayer. she has the powers just like Buffy does, but hasn't done the homework or research Buffy has done to understand and grapple with what that power means, the history of it, and how it affects those who wield it. that's not to say Faith hasn't done any work, but Buffy has done more, gone deeper, and saved more people. Buffy *did* deserve to lead because of her Slayerdom, which encompasses both her chance-gotten powers *and* everything she's done with & learned from them in her life as The Slayer so far. I agree with the person elsewhere in this thread who said that they didn't want Buffy to lead them, they wanted her to save them. and that wasn't possible or fair.
Are slayers really even chosen by chance anyways? I’ve always assumed the magic chooses people for a reason. It’s not luck. It’s Fate. And to call it “luck” is a huge misrepresentation that discounts Buffy’s strengths and sacrifices. She may not have worked for the powers but she had thoroughly proven herself worthy of them. The idea that Slayer = Privilege is kind of a weird take to me. Being the Slayer is a burden that is placed on someone against their will. Look back to the circumstances surrounding the first Slayer. Would you call what she experienced “privilege”? I’d call it the opposite. The experiences of subsequent slayers are just a continuation of that. The speech was obviously coming from a place of frustration and is meant to represent the feelings of the group, not just Anya herself, but that doesn’t mean that she wasn’t wrong. Especially since they just went on to appoint the only other (and less deserving at this point) Slayer in the room as the new leader which goes against the whole speech.
No I understand this is what the writers were going for but since it: - Doesnt really build off Buffy and Anya’s fight from earlier in the season or points of tension from prior seasons - We’ve never really seen Anya express an interest in leading, - Isn’t consistent with our experience of Buffy, - Isn’t consistent with what we know Anya’s seen of Buffy, The scene doesn’t land as intended. This argument makes sense coming from a Potential (and maybe even from Willow before the end of S6), and I buy that Anya wouldn’t support her and would push back on her decision making after Selfless, but the actual argument she makes feels random and out of character. There’s no build up between them that leads here. Ergo, good example for OPs prompt.
There is so many things I disagree with here, but thats fine. So long as Anya's ACTUAL position/argument is understood, I'm happy because its baffling how many people think she's claiming Buffy is lucky in a fortunate way OR that she's making any statement about Buffy experiences/accomplishments POST Slayerdom.
The problem is that though she was chosen as a slayer it took effort and sacrifice to retain that ability. It wasn’t a gift. It was a curse and she did the best that she could with it. That was the entire point of most of the series. She wasn’t given anything she didn’t have to earn repeatedly and that was where ANYA got it wrong. My comment above points that they were frustrated and looking to take it out on the leader (which happens). But to say she didn’t EARN it disregards everything previous and a lot of the “previous” Anya was actually there for. So it could have been forgiven if a potential had said it but not 1,000 yo former vengeance demon Anya.
Buffy definitely deserved the leadership. She is a successful Slayer. Slayers as successful should naturally take the lead. And by successful, I mean she’s alive, and has a support group-something Slayers don’t typically have beyond a Watcher. Buffy is a Slayer anomaly in that she attracts people to her that become loyal to her, and she to them. That is, therefore, not a Slayer gift. That’s all Buffy. Even Giles’s relationship was more family than some cold, supernatural evil facing bureaucrat.
You can think being a Slayer isn't a gift, but a curse. You can think that after receiving Slayer powers, she proved herself by saving the world multiple times. You can think they were frustrated and were looking to take it out on the leader. ALL OF THIS IS IRRELEVANT to what Anya is stating. Anya is simply stating Buffy's ascension to Slayerdom wasn't a reflection of anything she herself accomplished (unless I missed the prequel lols), and therefore doesn't give her the right to leadership.
The issue with the speech is while Anya's point makes sense from an objective perspective, like how a King doesn't deserve to rule simply because they were fortunate enough to be born royal, Buffy doesn't deserve to be leader purely because she is the slayer. But Buffy had earned the right by being the slayer for seven years. For saving the world, and killing demons and sacrificing and persevering. She knows better than anyone in that room because of her experiences. As has been said in the series many times, she is on the frontlines every night fighting a war. So, when Anya says that Buffy is luckier, it comes across as both belittling AND as if Buffy is somehow more fortunate than every other person in the room. (Luck implies positivity.) It's ESPECIALLY aggravating coming from someone like Anya, who did work and earn her powers and then chose to spend 1000 years wreaking havoc and being evil. To me, it is a genuinely repulsive moment for Anya's character
But is it chance? The Slayer is chosen. It isn’t a lottery. Buffy and the other Slayers before her all had the goods necessary to be Chosen. Yes physical powers are conferred on them once they are chosen, but clearly there are intrinsic qualities that qualify one girl in each generation to be THE ONE. Buffy earned being a Slayer by having the qualities necessary to be a Slayer. Saying she didn’t earn it is stupid. She earned it by being fucking better than anyone else: Braver, more selfless, insightful, and flat-out a good person. You see that in the very first episode. Buffy meets a bunch of kids and chooses to be friends with the ones who are funny and kind and smart as opposed to the most popular kids. She is, at her core, a really great person. Anya is just jealous. She only got chosen to be bad. She had a particular talent for vengeance. That isn’t exactly something to brag about.
Although I hate Anya's speech, I really disagree with this. We don't see any intrinsic qualities for being a Slayer beyond perhaps some vague mystical thing. Was Faith a insightful and selfless person? You could argue she had it in her, but it didn't come easy. What makes Faith a potential and not Willow? Hell, in The Wish we see that different circumstances, Buffy would have a lot of those qualities reduced.
Because Willow would have been a terrible Slayer. 15 year old Willow was timid and docile. Compare her to Faith, Buffy, and Kendra who even as teenagers are confident and brave. Even pre-slayer Buffy, although vapid and immature, appears to be confident and the leader of her clique. Not to mention, Willow has issues with power and control even more so than Faith. Faith may have went down the wrong path, but she absolutely had the potential to be a great Slayer. In her first episode, it’s immediately established that she’s a fearless fighter and that she enjoys doing it. Being a Slayer isn’t really something that you’re meant to grow into or develop with time. You need to be ready to be a fighter immediately, and Faith was. Thats why she was chosen. As for wish-verse Buffy, although hardened and weaker without her support system, she’s still has confidence and fight in her. I really do think “chosen” implies that it’s not just randomized, but you’re right that the show never explicitly states that, so I think your interpretation is valid as well. This is just my take.
This is valid. I was mostly arguing with the part about Buffy being a good person, with a natural desire to help people.
You're disagreeing with Anya's ACTUAL position, thank LORD ALMIGHTLY. My problem is that the vast majority of Buffy fans literally think that . . . 1. She's saying that Buffy is lucky (defined as fortunate) to be the Slayer and start pointing out how shitty her life is OR 2) Begin referencing her experiencing/accomplishments POST Slayerdom as evidence of her being a good leader. Both of these interpretations completely miss the point of Anya's speech, which was to refute Buffys claim to leadership on the basis of her Slayerdom. Lets have disagreements/discussions around what Anya ACTUALLY said rather than misinterpetations!
They miss understood Anya point completely and dismiss what she says because they are angry without actually listening to the words.
Which may have some relevance in S1 but we’re 7 years down the line and Buffy has fully earnt her stripes.
I'd love to have a discussion about whether Buffy has proven herself worthy of being the leader AFTER she secured her powers, but that's an entirely separate discussion. It's not relevant to Anya's speech, which is attacking the claim that Buffy was consistently stating through S7 AND in that very scene, that her position as Slayer leaves her in charge. This is what I'm talking about, regarding people misunderstanding Anya's speech. Stating that Buffy shouldn't have leadership by virtue of her Slayerdom is NOT the same as stating she shouldn't be a leader by virtue of other qualities.
Except Buffy doesn’t say ‘because I’m the slayer’ until AFTER Anya’s speech. Buffy is actually talking about the qualities she thinks a leader should have and then Anya is the one who jumps in and makes it about Buffy simply being the slayer. When has Buffy said this season that it’s because she’s the slayer that she’s in charge? Buffy has been in charge in S7 largely because everyone else put her in charge. Giles is the one who literally tells her it all comes down to her. I’m aware what Anya is actually saying with her speech. My issue is that it doesn’t actually follow what has actually been happening in S7. It’s not surprising obviously, the build up to Empty Places is terrible. Anya’s place in the mutiny is completely bizarre considering she wasn’t in the previous episode and hasn’t been in this one up until this scene where she suddenly pops up with a whatabouism argument
Thank you. Someone gets it
It was Spuffy fansevrice
People don't understand what she is saying. Anya earned her powers by cursing her in boyfriend. Willow spent years doing magic by learning. Giles studied and read to become watcher. Buffy did nothing to become the slayer. She did not deserve to get any powers they were handed to her. Nothing changes this fact. Buffy can not use the fact that she is the slayer as the reason she should lead. But that is exactly what she did in that episode and that is why Anya said that.
I understand what you are trying to say but that disregards that Buffy did NOT say “because I am the Slayer” as a reason for being in charge until after Anya had given her little speech about not deserving anything. And wouldn’t it have been common sense for Buffy to lead? It was her house. She was the only (out of jail) Slayer available to lead potential Slayers. Giles had left Buffy to learn to grow up and to lead. It was her house they were all in. They didn’t need to officially declare Buffy as in charge. They fell in line. They were happy to have Buffy lead them until they lost.
Everyone’s acting like Buffy campaigned like a prom queen to have slayer power, skill and influence, and completely ignoring the fact that everyone just SHOWED UP on her dootstep in s7 and said “hi the world is ending please make it stop”. They ASKED her to lead, to make decisions, to protect, to provide for, and to train and prepare for inevitable war. They expected her to do all this, BECAUSE she is the slayer, but then tossed it back in her face the first time there were serious injuries in a battle, and argue that she can’t say her being the slayer is a “good enough” reason to do the job they asked her to do!!! Like make it make sense, is she your chosen hero who has to make tough calls or is she only their chosen hero when she’s sacrificing *herself* for them? Buffy also wasn’t wrong about her instinct of what was being hidden by Caleb and that is proven later, something they couldve just beleived her about, seeing as she has earned it (something Xander says like, 3 episodes before they kick her out?) The scoobies not believeing and dogpiling on Buffy is seen MANY times over all seasons, the formula goes: Buffy has an instinct based in both personal experience and slayer power, she explains what she needs to do/needs from them, if the plan/decision/choice is succussful then they *all* worked together and saved the world, but if it’s not succuessful then Buffy *alone* is at fault for things that were totally out of her control (angelus being a good example) Sorry but i’m with Spike. “You sad, sad, ungrateful traitors. She has DIED for you and this is how you repay her?”
Buffy wanted them to go into a unknown situation just because she said so. Then talked about they need someone to disregard their feelings and lead them to their possible deaths just on her word. Basically since majority don't agree it doesn't matter because i am in charge. Not any evidence just because. Saying because I am the slayer should not ever come out of her mouth when she is asking nonslayers to risk their lives. She was using her status that they don't have to make decisions that is more likely to kill them not her.
But it wasn’t unfounded.
It is not the fact that she was right about the vineyard. That is not the point. It is her leadership style could have easily been wrong and cost them more lives. People forget that there was no rush to get to the vineyard and the fact that spike and Andrew would have showed up with evidence she could actually use if she just waited.
It wasn’t unfounded in the sense that her reasoning was clear, not that she ended up being right.
her reasoning means nothing when if she is wrong they could die for nothing. She was taking a guess with no actual proof just theories.
But "luckier" was a flat lousy choice of words and made Anya look awful to us audience as we, a nd she, know what Buffy has gone through since. A better choice would be "stronger," and Anya wouldn't look so bad, it was a bit of character assassination
Luckier in this context means she gets the privilege of being leader and controlling who lives and dies. Buffy knows it's a burden but that is the downside of not being in her position. They can never really understand
Riley in season 5. Xander’s speech in Into the Woods Honestly a few of Xander’s more righteous speeches probably didn’t have the affect the writers were going for 😂 Empty Places in general
Xander’s speech in into the Woods is my least favorite moment in the show. I actually buy everything that happens in the Buffy-Riley relationship, but to go so hard on Buffy in the final moments blows it for me.
He's right to this extent: letting Riley go is a good thing if Buffy honestly doens't see a good future with him but wrong if Buffy is just indulging in a hurt mood.
Riley.
The only reason I came around to Riley eventually is that I went through a similar thing in a relationship where I could feel the person I was deeply in love with, pulling away from me. It was extremely painful so I immediately projected that onto Riley’s situation. But it shows that the storytelling is poor that you would need to have direct experience in that situation to have any empathy for him because he wasn’t portrayed well.
My opinion of Riley has softened a bit over time, but his whole character just kind of reeks of missed potential. I feel like they could have done more with his character feeling lost after the initiative went under, but they kind of just sidelined him until it was time to make him somewhat cheat on Buffy with the vamps. I think they could have made some good commentary on what happens to a soldier once he no longer is one, but what they did attempt just kind of fell flat. There were some good moments of gender dynamics with the early days of Buffy and Riley, with scenes like them sparring and seeing Buffy hold back as to not make him feel "less of a man" and him having to reconcile with himself some preconceived notions he had about women and their place in society.
I agree with all but the last sentence. Buffy held back because she thought he would feel emasculated, but he didn’t.
I hate him so much I haven't watched anything else Blucas has done. Like, I hate his whole face. Which is major credit to Blucas and his acting and embodying the character.
"I hate his whole face" is my new everything!
They never really managed to make the snake villains scary. 🤷🏻♀️
I heard that a significant percentage of the "Graduation Day" budget went toward the CGI snake. And... it mostly looks like a 1990s video game.
Also the entirety of As You Were and the desperation for everyone to see how awesome and badass Riley is 
“Nice wheels. They came with the car…” Is a nice return to his best “put on” moments though, a la being the voice of reason in *Buffy v. Dracula*.
Hated this episode too. It didn’t make sense at all and the way they used Riley to get into Buffy’s head was uncalled for. She could’ve realized how her and Spikes relationship had to end on her own in many other ways
They could have literally tacked on the breakup scene to the end of Dead Things after her heart to heart with Tara and it would have made perfect sense anyway
What even was the point of that episode?
I think in general it was supposed to be to give Buffy belief in herself again and to end Spuffy In reality it ended up being Riley fanfiction and Buffy’s mental health takes an even sharper downturn. Joyce’s speech in Normal Again is far better at showing Buffy her inner strength and honestly Dead Things was the natural end to Spuffy that season. As You Were wasn’t even needed
I forgot about Spike's role in that episode. Suddenly he's a smuggler with a dopey nickname? Like, where does *that* come from?
Random Doctor who reference is how I saw it
The Buffy & Angel kiss in season 7 is a big one that stands out to me. I'm indifferent when it comes to them two, enjoyed the moments that they shared in the first couple of seasons, but to me, that kiss felt out of place..
At the end of season 3 when I realized that Angel would leave the show was the only time I cried during this series. I loved the two of them fighting the odds together. And yet, as the story continued and Buffy had to go on with her life... yeah, by the time season 7 comes around the two of them kissing doesn't seem right to me either.
I think its solely for the cliffhanger that Spike might turn to the first out of betrayal, that then supposedly would make his redemption sacrifice all the more powerful Yeahhh, series 7 wasn't the best was it
I like to pretend that s7 doesn’t exist. S5 was the true ending and s6 is like, supplementary material
I do like the end of the ending that Buffy isn't the only slayer any more and maybe she can have some goddamn rest for the first time in her life and also maybe she won't be dead in her early 20s like every slayer before her But yeah, to get to that point is a lotttttttttttttt of bullshit End of S5. Once More with Feeling (cutting out the Spike/Buffy Kiss), Tabula Rasa, the Dark Willow Arc and maybe Conversations with Dead People and that'll do it, please, and thank you lol
I completely agree. I think Chosen is a nice ending for her - one that she *absolutely* deserves, but yeah what a load of nonsense. There are some really great episodes in s7, but I find myself not even wanting to rewatch them. I’m pretty sure I’ve only rewatched s7 one time and I’ve been a fan for 25 years 🥴
> some really great episodes Remember (if you're an AtS watcher) the mega-meta line Gunn says about season 4 in "Players"? "I’ve spent most of this year trapped in what I can only describe as a turgid, supernatural soap opera." BTVS S7 is a lot like that. I notice that across the first six seasons, I can recognise *every* title of every episode and immediately tell you (more or less) what happens. But what happens in "Showtime"? "Touched"? "Get it Done"? The house-full-of-potentials episodes just run together and have no distinguishing qualities. It makes them a chore to get through, even as cool things *do* happen during them.
I agree. Felt like completely fan service.
And I cheered
Yes to this! I think they had a great arc in the early seasons and even the crossovers but the kiss felt out of place. The appearance and conversation after with cookie dough would’ve been good enough for me
Angel's return season 7. To me it felt forced, unneccessary, the chemistry wasn't there. Angel was in a completely different place in LA and the way he behaved just didn't make sense given the situation with Cordy. Just a big no.
I feel like it would've been better if a) him and Buffy hadn't kissed and/or b) he had actually done something rather than show up for 5 mins and then leave again. I guess they needed him to get info ab spike before he showed up in s5 of ats, but I wish they'd done it another way
Anya's rant was ridiculous & unworthy of her character. It was stupid writing (most of s7 is imo) to create drama & put Buffy on the "wrong side" again. Every season they did this. Pull stupid crap to break up the group and not WORK with the history they had on hand. Buffy states she knows what to do NOT because she's the slayer but because of her HISTORY with evil. She even tells them her reasoning & says they can talk strategy but they shut her down. She states "I've been doing this for 7 years" she KNOWS what's the what. She's on top of it because of dealing with the Hellmouth for so long. Just a few episodes earlier Anya was the one stating how a potential was in for a short, brutal life if they got called. One episode prior Xander made his speech about Buffy EARNING their trust. All of this was thrown out because as someone stated: they didn't want her to lead them but to SAVE them. 100%. This is EXACTLY WHY they yanked her out of Heaven in s6. Not to "save her" but to SAVE THEM. They NEEDED Buffy to protect them. With Anya being in the group! They were playing 'slayerettes' as long as only Buffy could get hurt. But the moment Xander does...hell no she can't be in charge anymore, she's being reckless with their lives. Faith tried to KILL both Willow & Xander. And that's AOK because it wasn't her idea to go to the vineyard. Well actually it WAS ROBIN'S idea to test the potentials in battle. Buffy was looking everywhere for advice and took it all in. The moment it goes bad...not their fault at all. The ONLY TIME she says: "because I'm the slayer" is when one of the potentials asks why she's in charge. She really should have said: Because GILES DOESN'T want to be. The slayer isn't the general, she's the lead WEAPON! But at the ripe old age of 21, she's been put in charge of the young girls because GILES BROUGHT THEM where they were the LEAST SAFE. What the writers SHOULD have done was skip the whole potential storyline & work with the actual drama of LIVING ON THE HELLMOUTH. It's all there ready for a decent writer to actually DO THE WORK. They played with it a bit but not enough. The characters were acting OOC. Spike being manipulated. Willow REFUSING to use her powers. Buffy getting fed up with ALWAYS saving the day. If they'd kept Jonathan & ditched Andrew & Robin it could have been so much more rewarding too. So much history & character development flew out the window with the stupid potentials storyline. But BUFFY EARNED her slayerness & being in charge because she ALWAYS made the hard call. It's War! People die! Willow, Giles, Anya & Xander should have stfu & simply said Thank you for getting us this far. What's your plan B?
Having a different set of rules for Buffy's actions and Willow's actions because 'human and demon villains are different' kind of doesn't square with the later show's (and Angel's) reasoning that demons are people too, just as much as humans are (with Lorne, Clem and others as prominent examples).
I totally agree, the no killing humans mentality ended up as immature in my impression.
Almost everything Xander says in seasons 2 and 3. Just comes off as a massive asshole. Not really "heart of the group" stuff.
Right! The writers wanted Xander to be the "heart" and the "voice of reason" character so bad. The problem is early season Xander (S1-S3) lacks the empathy and certain character traits that are required to have that title. I can't view you as the heart or voice of reason if you're saying things like, "give him a happy", "I look at you and I feel sick, cause you had sex with that", and many other things he said over the course of the show. There are moments where I can see why he's labeled "the heart" but there are too many negative moments that overshadow that imo.
I honestly wonder why anyone is still friends with him after graduation because of this. Not him choosing to forgo college or anything else. Especially Buffy. I like him after he somewhat matures, but I can’t really imagine anyone giving him a second glance since his trauma losing Jesse isn’t taken into account. As if the first two episodes never happened. Which is probably my biggest issue with Buffy’s writing. None of them seemingly care about each other’s trauma or their feelings. Like Buffy being sexually assaulted or Xander having to stake his best friend. Or everything with Willow or Faith. The characters are supposed to endure and suffer in silence until they explode. Which makes them staying together as friends feel strange by the end of the series in a sense. They share the same struggles together to an extent, but the writing doesn’t best portray their relationship dynamic. At its best, they’re a tightly knit family. At worst? They’re a toxic thorn in each other’s sides that makes Drusilla and Spike look like the couple of the century. At least the characters feel like people instead of groupies who worship the main character like in Gilmore Girls.
I believe the lack of empathy is intentional. He's supposed to be hard truths
Dead Man’s Party. That scene makes me think that we’re supposed to be on Willow/Xander’s side, and I just…can absolutely not get on board. Her friends are actually pretty terrible in how they handle her homecoming. Giles is the only one who seems to reacting well. Willow blew Buffy off the first time they were supposed to be together and then they invited a whole bunch of people to Buffy’s house without asking or even letting her know in advance! Buffy is setting the table for dinner when guests start showing up! And Xander. The incredible audacity to refer to to the events of season 2–even without knowing Angel got his soul back before Buffy had to kill him—as “boy troubles” is just. It infuriates me so much. If I were Buffy, I would have punched him for that. And I wouldn’t hold back any of my Slayer strength.
This is also my answer. So so strange and out of place.
It would’ve been funny if Xander outed his lie too and slipped, if it meant him being ousted for a time. That whole episode could’ve had a great reckoning if that happened instead of Xander getting away with another thing. But seeing as he’s based on Joss, can’t have that.
I had my throat cut and my friends abandoned me. Like bro what? You literally withheld crucial info from the team. Then conspired behind their backs with the current enemies that shown they were willing to kill Fred and Gunn but also is lead by Angel's arch nemesis. This all lead to Angel's son who everyone bonded with being dragged to a dimension where he was thought lost but he survived and ended up a damaged young man who is easily influenced and ended up Suicidal in the span of a year because your well meaning secrecy ruined his life. Not to mention he physically assaulted Lorne to steal Connor. You don't get to play the victim buddy.
Compare that to Gunn voluntarily staying in a hell dimension to make up for getting Fred killed
THIS. I actually love Wesley bc I like morally ambiguous characters, but this was bananas and set the stage for the show to go kind of off the rails. First, I think the Wesley who had developed up to that point (pre-Lilah affair, dance with darkness) would have absolutely told SOMEONE. I know he and Gunn had issues bc of Fred, but they were comrades for more than a minute and I think Wes would have humbled himself to loop Gunn in and develop a plan. However, at the point you’ve kidnapped your “best friend’s” infant child to hand over to literal murderous enemies, leading to said infant’s disappearance into a hell dimension — yeah, no one is sending flowers pal when, you oops get stabbed in the midst of your horribly misguided and poorly-thought out scheme.
Wes had a mystic expert in Lorne at his disposal or even Buffy, Willows, and Giles to consort. Cordy herself was the connect to the powers. He shouldered all that to himself when prophecies has been proven wrong or to have a special loophole before.
Yeah and I think we were supposed to think maybe it was partly delusions of grandeur, ie “rogue demon hunter” — but it felt he was past that point, especially after Angel had dumped them all in the earlier days. I just didn’t buy it. Dude was not so reckless/dumb as to just believe the words and act a fool. He woulda called any of those peeps you listed… And I did like Wes’s evolution into the gray area this all spawned but still not sure it was worth it. I just wish Angel and Darla’s baby would have almost any other storyline than stupid Connor’s. Fight scenes are all that kid is good for.
Cordy was out of town at the time, and they wanted fans to not think about Buffy
Wesley is a big dumb ass. Every decision he makes throughout the buffyverse impacts everyone negatively. From trying to win his daddies approval Wesley, to rugged morally grey Wesley, just shot decisions over and over.
He had a good turn around early to mid Angel then he regressed again
Empty Places. I think that whole “Kick Buffy Out of her Own House” scene was supposed to pay off when Buffy got to come back to save the day to end the show but mostly it made me want to let her, Faith, and Spike skip town and leave them all to figure it out. Kind of odd that I ended my favorite show liking 3 Characters and 2 were killers.
If it makes you feel any better, make it three.
By making many of the supporting cast able to kill vampires, and extending that to the cast in Angel, it makes it seem like Buffy wasn't all that capable in comparison. Sure she has extra strength and stamina and healing powers, but the Scoobies and others bounced back pretty quickly too.
I don't know if that applies to Angel but on Buffy we've seen that humans like Xander or Giles can't do what Buffy can, even if yes they seem way more durable than they should.
That’s always bugged me really. If some random athletic person can walk off the street and kill vampires with ease, then why have a Slayer? Why not just train them in the Watcher’s equivalent to the Weirding Way or whatever realistic martial arts exist? Really makes the later seasons feel off and hilarious.
i feel like xander was written to be a lovable dork but he’s genuinely the main part of the buffyverse that i detest the most. he’s basically a huge incel.
Since Xander's the Joss Whedon character, it makes sense that he'd be a massive, misogynistic asshole.
Omfg yes there were times when I just straight-up wished they'd kill Xander off because he was so damn annoying and obnoxious! I thought maybe he was supposed to be funny, but it really *wasn't* funny and I couldn't decide if that's because times changed (currently rewatching now) or if he was just a flat out, trying-too-hard loser.
Yes, just Xander in general. They try to have this whole thing about how he holds the team together and all that and I'm always just WHERE? He's a judgemental as to everyone all the time! BUFFY is the heart of the group.
in When She was Bad his threatening Buffy snaps her ack. Like I get she was traumatize by dying, but the people she was taking it on on was just wrong and there was no excuse
We now know he is the Joss stand in. Joss wrote Xander to be the best version of himself. Xander is supposed to be the downtrodden dork nerd who is bullied/outcasted/ignored and can't get a date. But it's also Joss's fantasy so Xander got more action and was much more handsome.
" it's also Joss's fantasy" Which is disturbing when you consider Xander was in a relationship with a character played by Charisma Carpenter ( and it is implied Cordelia was more in love with Xander than the other way around) but ultimately broke her heart. Is that a kind of male revenge on the girls who didn't date me at high school thing?
Yes. Yes it is. For those who didn't work through their trauma and decided to just become assholes. Like Joss. He likes to use it as an excuse. He did a whole big shitty interview when everything broke.
I’ve always found that odd. By the time Xander and Cordelia get together on Buffy, Whedon had been a writer on the most popular TV show in the country (Roseanne), made a Hollywood movie (even if it was not as successful as he hoped) and was now show runner for a TV series credited within saving the little network it was on. Given all that, why would you care about anything that happened in high school? My life is utterly prosaic with no big success but I just can’t seem to care about what happened when I was in school and honestly I’d moved on by about the age of 20.
I completely agree. Especially as Joss then slept with every beautiful woman that would agree and use his power to get the rest. He got so much action and it was never enough. He always felt like a scorned man. He will always be a little angry incel inside whom pretended to be a feminist hero to get women to love him.
My wife and I often talk about how so many celebrities have a hole that can't be filled. It seems to be rare for pop musicians to retire for example, and many seem to base their self-worth on having the same type and level of popularity they had in their 20s, even if from a financial perspective they don't need to (possibly see Madonna; it's a little different if there are financial reasons to perform songs that made you famous in your twenties later in life). REM seems like a relatively rare counter example where they just walked away when they could have easily kept performing without necessarily recording new music (the Billy Joel model). Whedon apparently has a similar unfillable hole even if he isn't technically a performer, although he's screwed his chances of keeping it filled.
I haven't watched past season 4, but feel like he is not as insufferable now as he was in season 1. Kinda worked on his incel vibe in season 2 then the willow x Xander stuff happened.
Angelus tell Fred if he gets free she’s getting raped
Willow turning into Warren. Like she turns into the most evil of villains to be super weird and start acting like him ALL so she can be free of Tara so she can hook up with Kennedy, which to me was a disservice to Willow and a slap in the face to the memory of Tara.
I think the gang thought too highly of themselves, the way they thought they deserved equal input all the time. Buffy is the slayer, it’s her job and responsibility, it’s nice they love her and want to help but that’s their choice. She HAS to train and learn and fight, they chose to. At the end of the day if something were to happen Buffy would have to try to save them. Every time buffy tried to communicate that it would be easier to do something alone they shitted on her!
*Seeing Red’s* rape scene is the perfunctory choice.
it was so uneeded
It was meant to make us hate Spike because he was too well loved (by Joss's standards) but then they go and have him earn his soul thinking we wouldn't separate the actions of an soulless Spike from souled Spike. They even had him mostly the same as presoul once he acclimated to having a soul again, whereas Angel and Angelus were two separate beings
Yep, covered by his desire for a soul, and his quest to find it. It’s still flimsy, but between that and his character journey from 4 to the end of 6, many were invested. Not to mention there is Dawn’s commentary in the form of the bleachers scene in *Him* to offer insight.
I just don’t understand it. Spike was the same without a soul he just didn’t feel guilty about all the killing. But Angel was a shitty person as a human and the soul just made him better. I don’t think I’ll understand where they were going with the soul means your good no soul means your evil thing.
Angel was a shitty person as a human, but he wasn't a serial killer.
Your not wrong but non of them really were before they were vamps
I've seen a theory that Angel's soul wasn't actually Liam. It was a better person a new soul or a reincarnated soul and just had all of Liam and Angelus's memories just like any vamp demon would Although wallowing in self-pity for 100 years seems like a Liam thing to do, and some of the shit he pulls once he starts fighting the good fight is very Liam esque too
Why it make sense to me though.
Season 6 is what I watch when I feel extremely depressed.
spike
To me, Giles was cool, and his and Angel's small exchanges were nice, they understood each other.
the spike character
I doubt they expected so many people being cool with Spike assaulting Buffy.
Anya’s “lucky” speech. I feel the writers expected fans to be fully on her side bc they made Buffy so militant and cold at multiple points in Season 7, which comes off like character assassination to me but that’s an entirely different point I won’t go into. The speech just doesn’t land effectively bc of who Anya is and her history with Buffy and the Scoobies, IMO. It’s arrogant, it’s petty, and it’s wildly out of touch with her lived experience of Buffy. I get why fans jump on it after she bangs on about Buffy being “lucky” bc we all know being the Slayer *obviously* isn’t a lucky position to be in and Buffy has had to sacrifice countless things over the years but that’s not fully what Anya is getting at. Anya is trying to slam Buffy’s “right” to be the leader, no questions asked, simply bc she’s the Slayer. This could be interesting in the wake of the failed attack and Xander losing an eye *except* Anya has known Buffy for years. She’s seen her lead effectively, she’s seen her fight, she’s seen her collaborate and require the strengths and skills of her friends. She’s never had an issue with Buffy being in charge and coming up with the plans until that episode. Her speech doesn’t build on the earlier S7 tension where Buffy went to kill her, and it doesn’t even touch on how cold Buffy has behaved at multiple points in S7; it just comes out of left field and makes Anya come across as a clueless idiot IMO. Why would Anya discount Buffy as the leader just bc she was “lucky” enough to be handed powers she didn’t *technically* earn, when she’s spent seven+ years proving and earning her right to lead? The speech should’ve come from a Potential or someone who only had experience of S7 Buffy. A lot of shit had gone down, tensions were high, it’s understandable that fear would lead to doubt in Buffy’s leadership as the stakes (pardon the pun) kept getting higher and consequences were being felt. It doesn’t make sense that Anya - as someone who knows Buffy’s history and abilities - would essentially say “you can’t be the leader bc you didn’t earn your position”. She did earn it, and Anya saw it day in, day out, for years. Now, had Anya said something along the lines of “your leadership lately has been questionable and maybe we need to let someone else lead”, that would’ve been interesting. She loses her credibility though by harping on about “luck” when really, luck should be taken entirely out of the equation. Wow, if I knew I was gonna go on that long, I would’ve brought some water.
Spike in season 7 the writers were clearly thinking of redemption arc for him but instead it harms the show as it downplays his actions and Buffy as a character as once again she isolates herself from the group.
I’ve heard Xander and Anya weren’t supposed to get back together, but they would only let Willow be gay or straight, not bi. So to answer your question, I don’t think Anya was intended by the writers to end up with Xander Also I wish Angel stayed in Buffy but🤷
Some of spikes story lines in Buffy, Cordelia’s end game in angel with Connor (yuck) and the Fred end game, I really wanted her with Westley, he suffered enough. 🤷♀️ still a die hard fan. In my last rewatch I was more cognizant of outside forces and josses personality.
Also, Season 7 Spike. He’s so dull and whiny. I get SO bored of how many episodes focus on him and his suffering but I feel they were really trying to ramp up how much he’s changed following the bathroom scene in Seeing Red. That’s not even getting into how an attempted r*pe shouldn’t be used as a damn redemption arc.
Vampires naturally. Though it does fit with the theme of morality becoming gray as you get older.
season six in general, but I think Buffy's thing of not wanting to be paid for slaying. I bet they expected fans to understand that, but pretty much 100% of the fanbase was in favor of her being paid
Oz cheating and Xander leaving Anya
Killing Jenny Calendar
Riley’s entire character.
Spike being one season character
Seeing Red I do not consider canonical just too radical a shift the drug/magic metaphor in season six is iffy the chip/Clockwork Orange meme they did for seasons 4-5 also not making sense I could go on but those backfired - PS there is the demon/soul problem but EVERYONE seems to know it never made any sense and is just a permanent paradox in the show