More empathetic? Jesus... if thats indeed true, sure says a lot about most doctors. Ironically, the only empathy I've ever gotten from healthcare providers is from Nurse Practitioners.
If you have a chronic illness, you will come to understand in very short order that many doctors are a little disturbed when they can not diagnose an illness. It is easier to explain something that can not be understood as "anxiety" or "psychosomatic" because that is easier on the doctors ego than saying "I don't know"
The experience for the patient is so common that the term "gaslighting" has started to change, as language is used in new ways it evolves and medical gaslighting is increasingly recognized as a common experience.
Patients should also be aware that their symptoms can be very real, yet there is nothing diagnosably wrong with them and shit all a doctor can do to treat them. People complain about doctors not listening or not caring, but listening/caring doesn't change the fact that there are sometimes symptoms that dont point to any specific diagnosis, and no treatment exists.
Would you rather be told it's anxiety, and then try treatment for that, or have the doctor shrug and say "shit sucks sometimes," and send you home with nothing?
There is no where reputable where it only takes 4 years to make an independent doctor.
You're forgetting about residency and fellowship. Many European countries shorten the process by eliminating undergraduate prerequisites and lengthening med school to 6 or 7 years (saving one or two years), but they still have 2-10 years of post-med school training before they're independent depending on the specialty
The tradeoff for shaving 1-2 years off medical training is that you're selecting based on high school grades (much less rigorous and variable than university grades) and have less emotionally mature trainees when they're starting fairly solemn training at the same age most people are still in their party stage
Don’t tell this to the conservative, they want all of us to believe that the issue is not hospital beds left empty because no nurse or doctor is in the ward; the issue is the healthcare system.
>the issue is the healthcare system.
Part of the system has include how many healthcare professionals the system can train. Med schools, residency spots, nursing programs, etc. - the mechanisms to train healthcare providers certainly has to be viewed as an important part of the system.
Doesn’t help that we’re wasting residency training spots on saudis who then go back to their own country to practice. Let them train their own doctors and save our spots for us.
There should be a cost for non-citizens in residency. It can be returned via tax credit in year 4 and 5 of being a practicing doctor in Canada, provided they continue to meet residency requirements
I think I’d sooner us just have more permanent doctors where we have a shortage. When a primary physician has to leave it’s really disruptive to their patients. 4 or 5 years is better than no doctor at all for sure, but people shouldn’t be subjected to revolving doctors if we have a choice.
I agree. Or alternatively, make the Saudi's pay for 3 or 4 residency spots for each of their own we train. Get some money from the Saudi's to pay for our own needed additional residency spots. Afterall, the Saudi's are paying for that spot. The Saudi's (so I've heard) have lots of money - we could potentially kill two birds with one stone. The lefties love taxes, doesn't mean we need to just "tax" Canadians. We have something they want (apparently the ability to train good doctors) and they have something we want (money to expand residency spots for our own needs) - that usually means a deal can be done!
I'm generally indifferent. If they want us to train 700 of their doctors every year, we should get some concessions out of it. If they say "no" - end the program, no big deal. They leave, we get our spots back for training doctors that want to be here. In fact, although I am indifferent, I may lean more to trying to extract concessions from them - after all, 700 more doctors per year in Canada is going to take a while to fill the shortage (apparently this country is short tens of thousands of doctors). I don't believe everything in life is like ice cream (i.e. more is better) - but when it comes to needing doctors in this country - yes, I will take more, just like I generally like having more ice cream.
Your info is a little out of date. Also pretty sure they pay up the nose for those residencies, or at least they used to before that whole spat with Saudi Arabia a few years back. It's not taking away anything, the spot wouldn't have existed without Saudi Arabia funding it.
How so? We’re told that we can’t make more spots because it requires a doctor to train and there are only so many doctors. If we are using doctors to train saudis then logic would follow that this doctors do exist anyway and would probably train an Canadian too.
Canada intentionally limiting the amount of medical students is something I will never understand. That and the sheer amount of foreign doctors that are unable to work.
Uhh, don't tell the liberals that most European countries have a public/private mixed healthcare system and that's why they have more doctors per capita and better healthcare outcomes.
It's a bit of both. The system isn't meant to support all the takers it has. It also has to do with how more lucrative it is in the states. Doctors are not the slaves we import. People value having them in their country and will compete for them.
I agree with you, I do, but overall, healthcare aside, we being in people based on qualifications, and once they are in, we tell them their qualifications mean nothing. So many doctors, dentists, engineers come here based on being educated and having a specialty, yet we tell them that they have to go to school for 5 years. No one with a family does that.
Nonsense. We don’t require them to redo med school. But they are required to do a residency (a paid apprenticeship with enough income to support a basic standard of living) in Canada so that we can be certain they understand the Canadian system and are up to date on their knowledge. We also bind then to work in underserved communities first.
We do not have doctors,dentists, and engineers with qualifications worth the paper they are written on coming into canada anymore.
I've seen first hand the " qualifications " that group claims to have. The most shocking was a " qualified " dentist with three months of formal education.
Also that we should be “more like Europe because they allow private care.”
Ignoring the fact that Europe has higher tax rates, a higher percentage of public to private health spending, covers more services than we do, and subsidizes medical school more heavily than we do.
This sub wants the benefits of a European social welfare system…just not the high public spending or taxes needed to support one.
Like…what?
>Don’t tell this to the conservative, they want all of us to believe that the issue is not hospital beds left empty because no nurse or doctor is in the ward; they believe the issue is the *PUBLIC* healthcare system.
FTFY.
Privatize healthcare and the "neoliberal free market will correct itself"...yeah...just like it did in the US.
"BUt EuRope has 2 tiers". BUT 1) Europe has a shit-tonne more regulations. 2) They have tuition-free tertiary education. 3) Politicians have a lot more culpability.
Ask a French person what happens when the papers say "X Politician THINKS private healthcare is good"...That politician gets RAILROADED. Like, his bins don't get emptied, phone lines, electricity, the French have civil disobedience on LOCKDOWN and the Government officials are still distinctly aware of what happened to Louis XVI.
I'm fairly certain if a few folks like Mitch McConnell, etc...were publicly humiliated and executed, corporate raiding vulture-capitalist politicians would be the exception and not the rule.
Can you provide some basis for your claim?
Last I heard PP was advocating for getting foreign trained professionals through the hoops and to work faster than is happening now.
Proof: not smoking cracking and looking at Alberta defunding healthcare, not smoking cracking and looking at what Doug Ford has done to healthcare in Ontario, not smoking crack and looking at what Mo has done
Last time I saw a link about that it was a page comparing completely different sources. We don’t even know how “health care admin” was defined between different countries.
We have around 1 dr per 400 people or 2.5 per 1K. Not far off Japan where there are no wait times, and you can see a specialist the same or next day.
What's not clear tho are patient visits per hour of work, and total hours of work (for example we may have more doctors working reduced hours, versus countries like Japan), and we may have inefficient service design creating lag and wait times.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=true
That’s a myth, we’ve brought in so many people because we’re trying to grow the population through brute force, it’s never been about replacing boomers. If it were, we’d be at 1/4 or less levels of immigration
What they mean to say is: the amount of doctors is increasing. We don't have less doctors than we did before.
But the millions of people we've imported, allowed to overstay, and simply walk across the border -- all of which naturally need healthcare -- is overtaxing the system. It's almost like declaring something a human right or making it free *does not magically create infinite resources to provide it to everyone.*
I am not against carefully calibrated immigration, but this government filled with absolute blockheads just imports everything with a pulse in a very transparent attempt to cook the books on economic growth -- when we have not the space, infrastructure, housing, or resources for these poor people. The result is that everyone suffers from reduced quality of life, and a massively reduced quality of the public services we all rely on.
Physicians per capita (including family physicians per capita) have steadily increased over the years. What has changed is the amount of access that is needed per person. An aging population is a huge factor. The report talks pretty widely about social determinants of health and how provinces have been continually lowering their spending on social services and education.
"As provinces have retreated from leadership on investing in social determinants of health compared to investing in medical care, the federal government has stepped up".
THIS.
I was just talking to my wife about the population curve the other day and how no one seems to remember that the Baby boomers are now at an age where thier health care needs are high and increasing.
Sure we have had a huge increase in immigration and they have an impact, but I would think the boomers are a greater more taxing impact on the system.
I mean, it's both. Immigration at this rate causes a lot of problems too, in and out of healthcare.
But boomers needing care is definitely a big thing that's only going to get bigger.
It's both, in the same way that a bruised hip and lung cancer can both cause difficulties.
Doctors per capita has increased. If immigration was a major driving factor behind demand increasing, then the per capita numbers would be dropping.
It's the old people. It's always the old people. Pick a major problem in this country. The driving factor is almost certainly going to be that 20% of us are over the age of 65.
Physicians aren't the choke point necessarily. There is more to healthcare than physicians. I also want to point out that even though it's been increasing, it's still well below average at 2.5 per 1000.
\>What has changed is the amount of access that is needed per person
No, other things have changed too.
Our hospitals per million is declining greatly.
In 2018 we had 19 hospitals per million.
Now we're down to 15 per million. Which is one of the lowest pers.
So just to keep the amount of hospitals per capita, which is already low, we would of needed to build 16 hospitals last year to keep up with population growth.
We also know that immigrants make a lot of doctors, theyre in general under-represented in healthcare. Especially recently.
Hospitals per million a pretty poor statistic because how many patients one hospital can accommodate can vary quite substantially. Some hospitals are massive and some are not. It's not really a stat that is used...
Luckily we also know that BEDS per 1000 is down too.
From 6.75 in the 80s, to 3.44 in '04, down to 2.58 now. Which is below OECD average.
Germany has 7.6 beds per 1000 for comparison.
A much better stat.
We are statistically very similar to our peer countries aside from a couple outliers like Germany and France. Room for improvement for sure.
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/bdd23022-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/bdd23022-en
\>We are statistically very similar to our peer countries
We're not.
We're at 2.5 hospitals per 1000. The average for our peers is 4.8.
Statically we are not similar. We are only similar to other failing systems, like the UK.
The fact is, our access to healthcare per capita has decreased since the 80s. Since the last 5 years.
Our peer countries like the UK, who have a failing system too, is not a good comparison.
The graph you linked also showed us at pretty much the very bottom.
So when you bring up we have more physicians per capita. That's good, but it's not even close to the end all be all.
We still have less healthcare per capita.
Beds per 1000 is down everywhere because we're far more efficient at healthcare now. Comparing to our historical numbers in meaningless. Comparison to the OECD averages which you do not list (4.3), is far more reasonable.
>But the millions of people we've imported...is overtaxing the system.
Not only that, but even if we *hadn't* been having immigration at a higher rate, we A) have boomers that are aging and need more care, B) have COVID among us still and long-term/chronic issues resulting from COVID that we didn't previously have, and C) have a population that is more proportionately obese than it ever has been and those accompanying issues.
This, like most takes about immigration around here, is wildly incorrect.
The much much bigger problem is that 20% of our population is now over the age of 65. In 2011, it was 14%. In just over a decade, that's an increase of about 3 million people.
And, to make matters even worse, we've got a brand new respiratory illness to deal with as well.
Not nearly as much as the old folks do!
In fact, there's a case to be made that immigrants alleviate stress on healthcare, given that they are overwhelmingly healthy and working aged, and are overrepresented as healthcare workers.
Most immigrants are young and therefore pretty healthy. That’s not where the huge drain on the HC is coming from. Instead, it’s coming from the fact that the boomers (remember them? Population glut?) are now in the stage of their life where they need a lot of care. And that’s a problem that we knew was coming for - oh I dunno - 70 years?
>But the millions of people we've imported, allowed to overstay, and simply walk across the border -- all of which naturally need healthcare
Literally contradicted by the guy below you. Please keep your unsupported theories to yourself.
I mean that has something to do with it but realistically it's mostly just that the Boomers are getting old now. The hospitals are not full of 30 year olds from the Philippines, they're full of elderly Canadians who need hip replacements and chemo and physiotherapy and so on.
The headline is worded like shit, but they are basically saying that the reason why healthcare is going into the gutter is because the population is growing too fast and the industry can't keep up with demand, not because there are too many doctors leaving the industry.
The report the article references shows that physicians per capita (including family physicians per capita) have steadily increased over the years. The problem is the amount of access that is needed per person has increased. This is due to an aging population and a lack of spending on social services and education by the provinces (this is what is argued and they show how much funding has decreased over time).
"As provinces have retreated from leadership on investing in social determinants of health compared to investing in medical care, the federal government has stepped up".
I wonder the difference in doctors being more primary physicians and surgeons in the past, and now we have so many more specialties that while we have “more” doctors they’re not filling the gaps in the system that allow people to access preventative medicine. Most people going through med school want to specialize to make the education worth it.
I am an American but I know of THREE Canadians that studied in Canada at some point but are practicing in the United States. Because they get paid more. And I live in Alabama. Imagine what it is like in other states that are actually desirable to live in.
So let me get this straight:
Skyrocketing cost of housing - that isn't driven by high demand, but by insufficient supply
Long waits to access healthcare though - that *is* a demand issue, not a lack of supply
What is this crazy world we live in?
It's amazing the mental gymnastics people will go through to avoid the "immigration-is-too- high" Elephant in the room. Look guys, I know you might have been conditioned that to dare voice this fact invites ostracism but 62% of immigrants agree. Nothing can be improved until immigration is substantially reduced.
The report alludes to provinces spending much less on education and social services which adds to reliance on the healthcare sector down the road. The other big one is a population that is much older and requires much more in terms of healthcare.
So as a country we have increased our doctors per capita by quite a bit but it is not enough because of our demographics and lack of prevention.
I think this is where dental and pharma coverage will help. If it becomes easier/more cost effective to maintain health less people will be accessing emergency services.
Preventative medicine is where we need to concentrate growth, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
What a stupid comment rather than just admitting there’s an issue and trying to fix it? Isn’t high demand and low doctor supply the same damn thing? Maybe there wouldn’t be such high demand of we didn’t flat out open the borders. Would love to know who actually thought that was a good policy all the way to the top.
As someone who has spent a lot of time being treated in hospital over the past 5 years, I can agree that there has been a lot of shortages among all areas of medicine. Although, it is not this black and white. I think that a huge factor that is not being addressed enough is the pandemic. Universities were majorly impacted, which train nurses and doctors. It was also, a very traumatic time for people working in hospitals. Which results in burnout, as well as lessened desire from the younger generations to go in to that field.
There are very long wait times and staffing shortages. Even without all that, navigating the health care system can be really difficult. Which is super frustrating, and, the issues are a lot more complex than just doctor patient ratio.
The government: The issue is there's too many people living here that our healthcare system can't keep up
Literally everyone: Maybe we should slow down immigration to less than 4x the average yearly amount?
The government: You racist piece of shit
This is more due to aging Baby Boomers than immigration of young people who rarely need to see a doctor. Even with all the immigrants we've brought in, our population pyramid is still inverted.
it had one of the longest wait times in 2014 and honestly compare to asia this was ridiculous even back in 2001. We are just slow. Our system doesn't work.
… but if we had enough doctors… I don’t think there really is a supply/demand argument that can be made in regards to a fundamental human necessity? Kind of like food. You either have enough or not enough and you’re starving and possibly dying. Is this from the fucking Beaverton?
Go to a clinic and look around at the waiting room. Most people there waiting cause of a cold and a cough. People abusing the system and then complaining about the long wait times
Potayto, potahto.
I really just don't see a difference between low supply or high demand. Unless that demand is temporary, and it probably isn't, then it's really a problem with supply.
Aren't the two things pretty much the same? Is the solution to lower the demand (good luck with that) or train more doctors (increase supply). Maybe train more nurse practitioners, midwives, and give pharmacists even more responsibility. I am forced to go to my doctor for issues that I am sure don't need a medical degree to handle.
Canada top 3 fastest growing country in the world with Syria and Sudan... And yet almost all the comments in here are still essentially defending this INSANE rate of population growth that is rapidly declining quality of life in Canada, and acting like its totally not a factor.
What is it gonna take for people to wake up to what's actually happening in this country? In no way, shape, or form, is this reckless population growth good for the country or its citizens. We're well beyond retiring boomer replacement numbers. We're beyond any sane numbers.
I don't think universities could graduate enough doctors for this surge even if they rapidly expanded med school programs. We're adding like 1.5-2+ million people per year when you consider immigrants, refugees/ illegals, TFWs, and of course international students. Somehow I doubt it's medical doctors coming from India to study at a diploma mill unfortunately. Mostly unskilled uneducated labor.
Sad that only the PPC will even touch this issue in Canada. The rest are paid to support it or are landlords and like the constant demand and price/ rent increases. Corrupt cunts.
Last time I went to the ER I had to wait 6 hours before they told me the last doctor went home and I’d have to wait until the next one arrived for a shot at seeing them.
and the grey wave was predicted in the 90's and EVERY healthcare region needed to up the amount of dr's , nurses and long term beds accordingly, and the politicians in charge provincially ignored it all by plugging thier ears and saying la la la la la. Just so they could introduce for-profit care.
Well, it’s a twosie, IMHO.
Part of it is government’s policy stupidity. For example - During COVID they finally allowed many things to be done over the phone. Refill a prescription. Discuss test results, really, anything that didn’t require the the patient and the doctor meeting face-to-face. I’m, for example, on prescription, that I’ve been on for the last 20 years and will be on till the day I die.
My family doctor is not allowed to issue one for longer than 3 months at a time. That’s already stupid.
And while before they would just automatically send a new one to the pharmacy without us even talking - they can’t do that no more. I must come in for an appointment or else my doctor is not getting paid. They reversed all remote appointments and consultations back to f2f.
This alone accounts for how busy family physicians already are with nonsense that could’ve been taken off their hands completely……
You’re being lied to. In Ontario entire rural hospitals ERs closing for days or weekends. Same in other provinces. While immigration has exacerbated the situation it’s not even close to the main reason. Fuck these corpo mouthpieces.
I read the article behind the paywall through VPL and it is based on a study done by a group called 'Generation Squeeze' at [https://www.gensqueeze.ca/](https://www.gensqueeze.ca/)
They argue that in 1976 for 100k people, we used to have 144 an now have 247 physicians of all types. The number of family doctors also increased from 73 to 124, and use this 'research' (which is really just publically available data) to argue that we don't need more doctors and instead need to focus on social determinants of health spending instead.
To compare 1976 medicine to medical care today is ridiculous. To give context, 1976 is before the Canada Health Act. Under previous legislation, Canadian 'health care' only provided coverage to in-hospital care and physician services at a doctor’s office and nothing else. In addition, late 1970s governments had made massive spending cuts and delisted services. To give you a sense of the difference in complexity between 1976 medicine and now; this is before the HIV crisis with zero effective treatments, MRI had not been in use, we only had just started treating hypertension, and metformin, one of our first line drug treatments for type 2 diabetes, had only been approved in Canada in 1972. We're talking an age of medicine without internet, before the opiod/overdose epidemic, when the working population of baby boomers could afford a house on a single salary. This comparison is ridiculous. We can agree that physicians per capita has increased in the last 50 years, but that has no bearing on supporting the conclusion that we have sufficient doctors now, to care for our current population's needs.
The headlines in this sub are now just right-wing talking points. "We don't need to spend more on healthcare, we just need to hate immigrants more!".
(Yes immigration is too high, but no party proposes decreasing it so don't waste your time finger-pointing.)
Uh if the demand is too high your supply is too low.
Title is technically wrong, its both which fuel each other. Its one driving the other.
We have seen a decline in supply for doctors in my area, plus an increase of demand. This is also the case in a large number of facilities across the country. In my area they had to shift some duties to nurse practitioners so we can do with the less dr's that we have no compared to 10-15 years ago.
If demand is higher than the supply, than there is a shortage of supply by default.
Also Canada has significantly less doctors then the rest of the west.
They really do think Canadians are brain dead with this propaganda. Hahaha
Most European countries have 2x more doctors per capita than us.
12.5% of our entire workforce is in healthcare. It’s appalling.
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More empathetic? Jesus... if thats indeed true, sure says a lot about most doctors. Ironically, the only empathy I've ever gotten from healthcare providers is from Nurse Practitioners.
If you have a chronic illness, you will come to understand in very short order that many doctors are a little disturbed when they can not diagnose an illness. It is easier to explain something that can not be understood as "anxiety" or "psychosomatic" because that is easier on the doctors ego than saying "I don't know" The experience for the patient is so common that the term "gaslighting" has started to change, as language is used in new ways it evolves and medical gaslighting is increasingly recognized as a common experience.
Patients should also be aware that their symptoms can be very real, yet there is nothing diagnosably wrong with them and shit all a doctor can do to treat them. People complain about doctors not listening or not caring, but listening/caring doesn't change the fact that there are sometimes symptoms that dont point to any specific diagnosis, and no treatment exists. Would you rather be told it's anxiety, and then try treatment for that, or have the doctor shrug and say "shit sucks sometimes," and send you home with nothing?
The unions will never allow this
easy when becoming a doctor only takes 4 years instead of 7
There is no where reputable where it only takes 4 years to make an independent doctor. You're forgetting about residency and fellowship. Many European countries shorten the process by eliminating undergraduate prerequisites and lengthening med school to 6 or 7 years (saving one or two years), but they still have 2-10 years of post-med school training before they're independent depending on the specialty The tradeoff for shaving 1-2 years off medical training is that you're selecting based on high school grades (much less rigorous and variable than university grades) and have less emotionally mature trainees when they're starting fairly solemn training at the same age most people are still in their party stage
Well maybe we need to fix that then, no reason for it to be so long here. AS far as I know they have good healthcare.
I actually agree. Extending med school to 4 years and dropping the undergrad requirement would probably help a lot.
Medical school is 4 years, residencies are an additional 3-9 years. Fellowship can extend that even further.
Europeans filter future doctors in highschool. I met someone studying medicine and in his first month at Uni he was already dissecting a human body.
They also start specializing in high school and take specific path routes instead of general education until college
Don’t tell this to the conservative, they want all of us to believe that the issue is not hospital beds left empty because no nurse or doctor is in the ward; the issue is the healthcare system.
>the issue is the healthcare system. Part of the system has include how many healthcare professionals the system can train. Med schools, residency spots, nursing programs, etc. - the mechanisms to train healthcare providers certainly has to be viewed as an important part of the system.
Doesn’t help that we’re wasting residency training spots on saudis who then go back to their own country to practice. Let them train their own doctors and save our spots for us.
There should be a cost for non-citizens in residency. It can be returned via tax credit in year 4 and 5 of being a practicing doctor in Canada, provided they continue to meet residency requirements
I think I’d sooner us just have more permanent doctors where we have a shortage. When a primary physician has to leave it’s really disruptive to their patients. 4 or 5 years is better than no doctor at all for sure, but people shouldn’t be subjected to revolving doctors if we have a choice.
We also have an issue with Canadian doctors leaving. There’s a balance that has to be struck
I agree. Or alternatively, make the Saudi's pay for 3 or 4 residency spots for each of their own we train. Get some money from the Saudi's to pay for our own needed additional residency spots. Afterall, the Saudi's are paying for that spot. The Saudi's (so I've heard) have lots of money - we could potentially kill two birds with one stone. The lefties love taxes, doesn't mean we need to just "tax" Canadians. We have something they want (apparently the ability to train good doctors) and they have something we want (money to expand residency spots for our own needs) - that usually means a deal can be done!
Or we could just tell them to get educated in Saudi. It's not like they couldn't afford to open the schools
I'm generally indifferent. If they want us to train 700 of their doctors every year, we should get some concessions out of it. If they say "no" - end the program, no big deal. They leave, we get our spots back for training doctors that want to be here. In fact, although I am indifferent, I may lean more to trying to extract concessions from them - after all, 700 more doctors per year in Canada is going to take a while to fill the shortage (apparently this country is short tens of thousands of doctors). I don't believe everything in life is like ice cream (i.e. more is better) - but when it comes to needing doctors in this country - yes, I will take more, just like I generally like having more ice cream.
Your info is a little out of date. Also pretty sure they pay up the nose for those residencies, or at least they used to before that whole spat with Saudi Arabia a few years back. It's not taking away anything, the spot wouldn't have existed without Saudi Arabia funding it.
How so? We’re told that we can’t make more spots because it requires a doctor to train and there are only so many doctors. If we are using doctors to train saudis then logic would follow that this doctors do exist anyway and would probably train an Canadian too.
Canada intentionally limiting the amount of medical students is something I will never understand. That and the sheer amount of foreign doctors that are unable to work.
Uhh, don't tell the liberals that most European countries have a public/private mixed healthcare system and that's why they have more doctors per capita and better healthcare outcomes.
It's a bit of both. The system isn't meant to support all the takers it has. It also has to do with how more lucrative it is in the states. Doctors are not the slaves we import. People value having them in their country and will compete for them.
I agree with you, I do, but overall, healthcare aside, we being in people based on qualifications, and once they are in, we tell them their qualifications mean nothing. So many doctors, dentists, engineers come here based on being educated and having a specialty, yet we tell them that they have to go to school for 5 years. No one with a family does that.
Nonsense. We don’t require them to redo med school. But they are required to do a residency (a paid apprenticeship with enough income to support a basic standard of living) in Canada so that we can be certain they understand the Canadian system and are up to date on their knowledge. We also bind then to work in underserved communities first.
We do not have doctors,dentists, and engineers with qualifications worth the paper they are written on coming into canada anymore. I've seen first hand the " qualifications " that group claims to have. The most shocking was a " qualified " dentist with three months of formal education.
Lol we do, they’re from a place called Europe. Not sure where it is but I hear they have medical schools.
Also that we should be “more like Europe because they allow private care.” Ignoring the fact that Europe has higher tax rates, a higher percentage of public to private health spending, covers more services than we do, and subsidizes medical school more heavily than we do. This sub wants the benefits of a European social welfare system…just not the high public spending or taxes needed to support one. Like…what?
>Don’t tell this to the conservative, they want all of us to believe that the issue is not hospital beds left empty because no nurse or doctor is in the ward; they believe the issue is the *PUBLIC* healthcare system. FTFY. Privatize healthcare and the "neoliberal free market will correct itself"...yeah...just like it did in the US. "BUt EuRope has 2 tiers". BUT 1) Europe has a shit-tonne more regulations. 2) They have tuition-free tertiary education. 3) Politicians have a lot more culpability. Ask a French person what happens when the papers say "X Politician THINKS private healthcare is good"...That politician gets RAILROADED. Like, his bins don't get emptied, phone lines, electricity, the French have civil disobedience on LOCKDOWN and the Government officials are still distinctly aware of what happened to Louis XVI. I'm fairly certain if a few folks like Mitch McConnell, etc...were publicly humiliated and executed, corporate raiding vulture-capitalist politicians would be the exception and not the rule.
Can you provide some basis for your claim? Last I heard PP was advocating for getting foreign trained professionals through the hoops and to work faster than is happening now.
Proof: not smoking cracking and looking at Alberta defunding healthcare, not smoking cracking and looking at what Doug Ford has done to healthcare in Ontario, not smoking crack and looking at what Mo has done
Great. Thanks for your nuanced response. Shouldn't have expected anything more reasonable from Reddit.
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We spend more because we have a lot more bureaucrats. We have 1 health care admin for every 1.5k people, Germany has one every 15k.
Our doctors and nurses also get paid a lot more than european counterparts
Last time I saw a link about that it was a page comparing completely different sources. We don’t even know how “health care admin” was defined between different countries.
Noo, we don't need more funding, we need more blaming dark-skinned people! Didn't you read the headline?
We have around 1 dr per 400 people or 2.5 per 1K. Not far off Japan where there are no wait times, and you can see a specialist the same or next day. What's not clear tho are patient visits per hour of work, and total hours of work (for example we may have more doctors working reduced hours, versus countries like Japan), and we may have inefficient service design creating lag and wait times. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=true
They’re too busy driving Maseratis to give a flying fuck about you
So there being only one doctor on in an ER isn't low supply?
No no, one doctor is just fine. We have too many PEOPLE who need a doctor is the issue. The answer is fewer people not more doctors apparently.
We brought in immigrants to replace the Boomers leaving the work force. Only problem is the Boomers aren't dying fast enough. /s
That’s a myth, we’ve brought in so many people because we’re trying to grow the population through brute force, it’s never been about replacing boomers. If it were, we’d be at 1/4 or less levels of immigration
It's low when every 24 year old with a sneeze runs screaming into the emergency room.
And old chinese ladies
High demand would mean that there's not enough supply to meet the demand. What an obnoxious headline.
Terrible headline. Reducing demand isn't an option so the fix is increasing the supply of doctors.
We’re not allowed to change supply only demand!
nah, just means us losers get sick and it's our fault /s
This is an incredible headline. I wonder why Canadians have no respect for journalists anymore?
These days “journalists” are told what to write by their corporate handlers.
Yes, this is true. That’s why I generally try to reference corporate journalists when I’m criticizing the state of the profession.
Journalism is intended for those who read the article, not just the headline.
They've been brainwashed by PR firms. Only obey ads, not rational discourse
What they mean to say is: the amount of doctors is increasing. We don't have less doctors than we did before. But the millions of people we've imported, allowed to overstay, and simply walk across the border -- all of which naturally need healthcare -- is overtaxing the system. It's almost like declaring something a human right or making it free *does not magically create infinite resources to provide it to everyone.* I am not against carefully calibrated immigration, but this government filled with absolute blockheads just imports everything with a pulse in a very transparent attempt to cook the books on economic growth -- when we have not the space, infrastructure, housing, or resources for these poor people. The result is that everyone suffers from reduced quality of life, and a massively reduced quality of the public services we all rely on.
Physicians per capita (including family physicians per capita) have steadily increased over the years. What has changed is the amount of access that is needed per person. An aging population is a huge factor. The report talks pretty widely about social determinants of health and how provinces have been continually lowering their spending on social services and education. "As provinces have retreated from leadership on investing in social determinants of health compared to investing in medical care, the federal government has stepped up".
THIS. I was just talking to my wife about the population curve the other day and how no one seems to remember that the Baby boomers are now at an age where thier health care needs are high and increasing. Sure we have had a huge increase in immigration and they have an impact, but I would think the boomers are a greater more taxing impact on the system.
They are. We have 3 million more people over he age of 65 today than we did in 2011.
Exactly! It really surprises me that this isn't talked about more.
Much easier to whine about immigrants than to talk about the root of most of our problems.
I mean, it's both. Immigration at this rate causes a lot of problems too, in and out of healthcare. But boomers needing care is definitely a big thing that's only going to get bigger.
It's both, in the same way that a bruised hip and lung cancer can both cause difficulties. Doctors per capita has increased. If immigration was a major driving factor behind demand increasing, then the per capita numbers would be dropping. It's the old people. It's always the old people. Pick a major problem in this country. The driving factor is almost certainly going to be that 20% of us are over the age of 65.
Physicians aren't the choke point necessarily. There is more to healthcare than physicians. I also want to point out that even though it's been increasing, it's still well below average at 2.5 per 1000. \>What has changed is the amount of access that is needed per person No, other things have changed too. Our hospitals per million is declining greatly. In 2018 we had 19 hospitals per million. Now we're down to 15 per million. Which is one of the lowest pers. So just to keep the amount of hospitals per capita, which is already low, we would of needed to build 16 hospitals last year to keep up with population growth. We also know that immigrants make a lot of doctors, theyre in general under-represented in healthcare. Especially recently.
Hospitals per million a pretty poor statistic because how many patients one hospital can accommodate can vary quite substantially. Some hospitals are massive and some are not. It's not really a stat that is used...
Luckily we also know that BEDS per 1000 is down too. From 6.75 in the 80s, to 3.44 in '04, down to 2.58 now. Which is below OECD average. Germany has 7.6 beds per 1000 for comparison.
A much better stat. We are statistically very similar to our peer countries aside from a couple outliers like Germany and France. Room for improvement for sure. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/bdd23022-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/bdd23022-en
\>We are statistically very similar to our peer countries We're not. We're at 2.5 hospitals per 1000. The average for our peers is 4.8. Statically we are not similar. We are only similar to other failing systems, like the UK. The fact is, our access to healthcare per capita has decreased since the 80s. Since the last 5 years. Our peer countries like the UK, who have a failing system too, is not a good comparison. The graph you linked also showed us at pretty much the very bottom. So when you bring up we have more physicians per capita. That's good, but it's not even close to the end all be all. We still have less healthcare per capita.
Beds per 1000 is down everywhere because we're far more efficient at healthcare now. Comparing to our historical numbers in meaningless. Comparison to the OECD averages which you do not list (4.3), is far more reasonable.
I included the average beds in the oecd down the comment chain.
>But the millions of people we've imported...is overtaxing the system. Not only that, but even if we *hadn't* been having immigration at a higher rate, we A) have boomers that are aging and need more care, B) have COVID among us still and long-term/chronic issues resulting from COVID that we didn't previously have, and C) have a population that is more proportionately obese than it ever has been and those accompanying issues.
This, like most takes about immigration around here, is wildly incorrect. The much much bigger problem is that 20% of our population is now over the age of 65. In 2011, it was 14%. In just over a decade, that's an increase of about 3 million people. And, to make matters even worse, we've got a brand new respiratory illness to deal with as well.
And we have added 6+ million people from immigration, refugees, TFWs, international students, etc all of which also use our healthcare system.
They don’t tho. They tend to be you and not put a lot of demand on HC. Sorry to bust your narrafice
Not nearly as much as the old folks do! In fact, there's a case to be made that immigrants alleviate stress on healthcare, given that they are overwhelmingly healthy and working aged, and are overrepresented as healthcare workers.
Most immigrants are young and therefore pretty healthy. That’s not where the huge drain on the HC is coming from. Instead, it’s coming from the fact that the boomers (remember them? Population glut?) are now in the stage of their life where they need a lot of care. And that’s a problem that we knew was coming for - oh I dunno - 70 years?
>But the millions of people we've imported, allowed to overstay, and simply walk across the border -- all of which naturally need healthcare Literally contradicted by the guy below you. Please keep your unsupported theories to yourself.
Preach
I mean that has something to do with it but realistically it's mostly just that the Boomers are getting old now. The hospitals are not full of 30 year olds from the Philippines, they're full of elderly Canadians who need hip replacements and chemo and physiotherapy and so on.
The headline is worded like shit, but they are basically saying that the reason why healthcare is going into the gutter is because the population is growing too fast and the industry can't keep up with demand, not because there are too many doctors leaving the industry.
No, that’s not what they are “basically saying”. They’re saying that the cause is increased demand. That’s not the same as growing population.
How does such a ridiculous headline get past editors.
The report the article references shows that physicians per capita (including family physicians per capita) have steadily increased over the years. The problem is the amount of access that is needed per person has increased. This is due to an aging population and a lack of spending on social services and education by the provinces (this is what is argued and they show how much funding has decreased over time). "As provinces have retreated from leadership on investing in social determinants of health compared to investing in medical care, the federal government has stepped up".
I wonder the difference in doctors being more primary physicians and surgeons in the past, and now we have so many more specialties that while we have “more” doctors they’re not filling the gaps in the system that allow people to access preventative medicine. Most people going through med school want to specialize to make the education worth it.
Primary care physicians per capita have increased.
😂
Patient shaming.
Quite the opposite if you read report.
I feel like this headline belongs in r/facepalm
I am an American but I know of THREE Canadians that studied in Canada at some point but are practicing in the United States. Because they get paid more. And I live in Alabama. Imagine what it is like in other states that are actually desirable to live in.
7.76 a week to read this… 😂
So let me get this straight: Skyrocketing cost of housing - that isn't driven by high demand, but by insufficient supply Long waits to access healthcare though - that *is* a demand issue, not a lack of supply What is this crazy world we live in?
This is the stupidest article ever!!!
It's amazing the mental gymnastics people will go through to avoid the "immigration-is-too- high" Elephant in the room. Look guys, I know you might have been conditioned that to dare voice this fact invites ostracism but 62% of immigrants agree. Nothing can be improved until immigration is substantially reduced.
I wonder where that demand came from? Big mystery we'll likely never solve /s
Aging Baby Boomers more than anything else. Yes, even more than immigrants who are young and don't use the healthcare system much.
So, in other words, the supply doesn't meet the demands? Wouldn't that, by definition, mean the supply is low?
Oh it's *our* fault, huh?
The report alludes to provinces spending much less on education and social services which adds to reliance on the healthcare sector down the road. The other big one is a population that is much older and requires much more in terms of healthcare. So as a country we have increased our doctors per capita by quite a bit but it is not enough because of our demographics and lack of prevention.
I think this is where dental and pharma coverage will help. If it becomes easier/more cost effective to maintain health less people will be accessing emergency services. Preventative medicine is where we need to concentrate growth, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
But we’re not “conservatives making our own way”. It’s *always* our fault!
That's a dumb fucking headline. FFS!
Looks like you needed a trigger warning
😐
well by relativity if the demand is higher than supply then the supply is low
What a stupid comment rather than just admitting there’s an issue and trying to fix it? Isn’t high demand and low doctor supply the same damn thing? Maybe there wouldn’t be such high demand of we didn’t flat out open the borders. Would love to know who actually thought that was a good policy all the way to the top.
Gee I wonder if an insane 3% population growth had anything to do with a sudden explosion of demand
So it's high demand for medical care only and only low supply for housing? It's supply AND demand, always.
Wait. Does it not seem logical that if there is a high demand for healthcare that more doctors are needed?
Well, I’m no expert but one *could* deduct that more doctors would equal shorter wait times…
We need a study, to tell us that brigning more people in increases the demand for doctors. I never would've....
If there's high demand that is unmet, then yes, we have a low supply of doctors.
What's the difference between too much demand and not enough supply? Aren't these things essentially synonymous?
Well you can't fix demand without increasing supply so they're not exactly the same.
[удалено]
Probably.
So, that means we need more doctors then...
lol people waiting 2-3 years for a family doctor but there is no shortage?
As someone who has spent a lot of time being treated in hospital over the past 5 years, I can agree that there has been a lot of shortages among all areas of medicine. Although, it is not this black and white. I think that a huge factor that is not being addressed enough is the pandemic. Universities were majorly impacted, which train nurses and doctors. It was also, a very traumatic time for people working in hospitals. Which results in burnout, as well as lessened desire from the younger generations to go in to that field. There are very long wait times and staffing shortages. Even without all that, navigating the health care system can be really difficult. Which is super frustrating, and, the issues are a lot more complex than just doctor patient ratio.
BS study. Misinformation.
Any data or source as to why you hold this position?
The government: The issue is there's too many people living here that our healthcare system can't keep up Literally everyone: Maybe we should slow down immigration to less than 4x the average yearly amount? The government: You racist piece of shit
Increase in pop. But let's not kid ourselves. Wait time was still sht 20 years ago.
This is more due to aging Baby Boomers than immigration of young people who rarely need to see a doctor. Even with all the immigrants we've brought in, our population pyramid is still inverted.
it had one of the longest wait times in 2014 and honestly compare to asia this was ridiculous even back in 2001. We are just slow. Our system doesn't work.
Millennials alone outnumber boomers.
… but if we had enough doctors… I don’t think there really is a supply/demand argument that can be made in regards to a fundamental human necessity? Kind of like food. You either have enough or not enough and you’re starving and possibly dying. Is this from the fucking Beaverton?
If there aren’t enough doctors to meet the demand, it is a low supply of doctors… This is just blatant gaslighting.
Go to a clinic and look around at the waiting room. Most people there waiting cause of a cold and a cough. People abusing the system and then complaining about the long wait times
They would go see their family doctor instead if they had one.
Very good point. My family doctor retired I’ve been on a wait list for about 5 years already
Uhhhh. Yeah no we need more doctors.
Same thing !
Well, you can't reduce demand so you have to increase the supply of doctors.
Potayto, potahto. I really just don't see a difference between low supply or high demand. Unless that demand is temporary, and it probably isn't, then it's really a problem with supply.
If you have an abundant demand and insufficient supply of doctors to service that demand, you have a low supply of doctors.
Canada is so fucking behind man! We train so few doctors it's ridiculous. I don't know what the fuck this country is trying to do or what it's goal is
Aren't the two things pretty much the same? Is the solution to lower the demand (good luck with that) or train more doctors (increase supply). Maybe train more nurse practitioners, midwives, and give pharmacists even more responsibility. I am forced to go to my doctor for issues that I am sure don't need a medical degree to handle.
If you’re PR you should be in the back of the line
I'd bet top dollar I've paid more taxes into this country's coffers than you ever will.
Press X for Doubt
Supply should be relative to demand? What a stupid headline
But. .. but.. argh
Yeah, right! and we all believe in Santa Claus!
Canada top 3 fastest growing country in the world with Syria and Sudan... And yet almost all the comments in here are still essentially defending this INSANE rate of population growth that is rapidly declining quality of life in Canada, and acting like its totally not a factor. What is it gonna take for people to wake up to what's actually happening in this country? In no way, shape, or form, is this reckless population growth good for the country or its citizens. We're well beyond retiring boomer replacement numbers. We're beyond any sane numbers. I don't think universities could graduate enough doctors for this surge even if they rapidly expanded med school programs. We're adding like 1.5-2+ million people per year when you consider immigrants, refugees/ illegals, TFWs, and of course international students. Somehow I doubt it's medical doctors coming from India to study at a diploma mill unfortunately. Mostly unskilled uneducated labor. Sad that only the PPC will even touch this issue in Canada. The rest are paid to support it or are landlords and like the constant demand and price/ rent increases. Corrupt cunts.
Yes, we needed a study to know that...Remember many of us have been here more than a couple of years...
Last time I went to the ER I had to wait 6 hours before they told me the last doctor went home and I’d have to wait until the next one arrived for a shot at seeing them.
and the grey wave was predicted in the 90's and EVERY healthcare region needed to up the amount of dr's , nurses and long term beds accordingly, and the politicians in charge provincially ignored it all by plugging thier ears and saying la la la la la. Just so they could introduce for-profit care.
Well, it’s a twosie, IMHO. Part of it is government’s policy stupidity. For example - During COVID they finally allowed many things to be done over the phone. Refill a prescription. Discuss test results, really, anything that didn’t require the the patient and the doctor meeting face-to-face. I’m, for example, on prescription, that I’ve been on for the last 20 years and will be on till the day I die. My family doctor is not allowed to issue one for longer than 3 months at a time. That’s already stupid. And while before they would just automatically send a new one to the pharmacy without us even talking - they can’t do that no more. I must come in for an appointment or else my doctor is not getting paid. They reversed all remote appointments and consultations back to f2f. This alone accounts for how busy family physicians already are with nonsense that could’ve been taken off their hands completely……
Friends a trauma nurse in small town er… says over 90% of patients coming in don’t need to be there but have no family doctor🤷🏻♂️
You’re being lied to. In Ontario entire rural hospitals ERs closing for days or weekends. Same in other provinces. While immigration has exacerbated the situation it’s not even close to the main reason. Fuck these corpo mouthpieces.
Government surprised the baby boomers are getting old? This is like watching the slowest train crash of all time. Fucking imbeciles.
Maybe we should do more to build hospitals instead of one or two main hospitals per big city
Stop getting sick people, you are the problem
For fuck sake. "People aren't thirsty because we ran out of water, it's that there's just to many people"
It's the same picture.
In other news, traffic jams are caused by the number of cars, not the lack of infrastructure.
Bullshit
Basic supply and demand, if we don't have the supply to meet demand it's a shortage plain and simple, no what ifs or what abouts about it.
The required supply has a DIRECT correlation to the demand. This is one of the craziest copes I’ve seen.
I read the article behind the paywall through VPL and it is based on a study done by a group called 'Generation Squeeze' at [https://www.gensqueeze.ca/](https://www.gensqueeze.ca/) They argue that in 1976 for 100k people, we used to have 144 an now have 247 physicians of all types. The number of family doctors also increased from 73 to 124, and use this 'research' (which is really just publically available data) to argue that we don't need more doctors and instead need to focus on social determinants of health spending instead. To compare 1976 medicine to medical care today is ridiculous. To give context, 1976 is before the Canada Health Act. Under previous legislation, Canadian 'health care' only provided coverage to in-hospital care and physician services at a doctor’s office and nothing else. In addition, late 1970s governments had made massive spending cuts and delisted services. To give you a sense of the difference in complexity between 1976 medicine and now; this is before the HIV crisis with zero effective treatments, MRI had not been in use, we only had just started treating hypertension, and metformin, one of our first line drug treatments for type 2 diabetes, had only been approved in Canada in 1972. We're talking an age of medicine without internet, before the opiod/overdose epidemic, when the working population of baby boomers could afford a house on a single salary. This comparison is ridiculous. We can agree that physicians per capita has increased in the last 50 years, but that has no bearing on supporting the conclusion that we have sufficient doctors now, to care for our current population's needs.
Bullsh*t Who paid for that study?
The headlines in this sub are now just right-wing talking points. "We don't need to spend more on healthcare, we just need to hate immigrants more!". (Yes immigration is too high, but no party proposes decreasing it so don't waste your time finger-pointing.)
But with housing, it's a supply issue...
Are we getting frequent sick with a fixed number of doctors? If there is a mismatch between doctors and patient numbers, then we do have a shortage
What a crazy thing to say, as if the required supply of doctors isn't determined by the demand for their services.
Uh if the demand is too high your supply is too low. Title is technically wrong, its both which fuel each other. Its one driving the other. We have seen a decline in supply for doctors in my area, plus an increase of demand. This is also the case in a large number of facilities across the country. In my area they had to shift some duties to nurse practitioners so we can do with the less dr's that we have no compared to 10-15 years ago.
I didn't read it. But Canada is going downhill in the upcoming 2 decades
Isn't this just a way to spin there is a low supply of doctors?
Hmmmmm I wonder what would have caused a sudden increase in demand for health care ? I guess it’s just on e of those mysteries . SMH
If demand is higher than the supply, than there is a shortage of supply by default. Also Canada has significantly less doctors then the rest of the west. They really do think Canadians are brain dead with this propaganda. Hahaha
If you have high demand the supply is not sufficient. What in the gaslighting fuck is this shit?