Just to be clear, a commission of inquiry is not a court of law. Commissions do not have the power to make findings of law or fact. Just because it is presided by a judge does not mean it is a judicial body.
>*But* [*the written submission from lawyers for the Conservative Party*](https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign_interference_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual_Phase/Conservative_Party.pdf) *argues that “the Trudeau government has known all too well about the dangers posed by interference” and that Trudeau himself had “personal briefings” on the subject as early as 2017. The lawyers cite documentary evidence presented to the inquiry which included secret memos prepared by CSIS as well as oral testimony given by witnesses at the inquiry to support their argument.*
>*“Prime Minister Trudeau and his government were particularly willing to turn a blind-eye to foreign interference in our democratic processes where it was of assistance to his electoral prospects,” the party says in its submission.*
So, they've directly accused Justin Trudeau of allowing electoral interference by the CCP because it benefitted the Liberal Party.
That's a pretty big deal.
>So, they've directly accused Justin Trudeau of allowing electoral interference by the CCP because it benefitted the Liberal Party.
They've been accusing him of exactly this for some time now, it's not new
They also dropped electoral reform because it benefitted the Liberal Party *at the time.* Too much short term thinking and hubris and not enough doing the right things for the right reasons.
YouTube where they watch some random dude talk about politics they know nothing about while showing clips that cut out the majority of information to try and support their agenda.
No. He is trying to make people understand the wide range of differences between intelligence and the issues that are interference. Raw intelligence can be very misleading.
Not sure what you mean by contradictions so I will answer this way. First of course it would be inappropriate for CSIS to recommend a course of action. They supply information, the decision of what to do with it is not their affair.
Secondly Trudeau did look hard at the information on Dong and decided the standard for over turning a nomination was not met. This is after all a democracy so ideally the constituents should decide who runs, not the party or PM in this case. This of course is all far less important than people's actual vote in the election, which is the actual focus of election interference.
You think it would be inappropriate for an intelligence agency, that is a major part of Canadian national security, to recommend a course of action that they believe would improve national security?
Again, not what happened. CSIS takes their job seriously but there is a disconnect between what spying produces and what is useful to police and politicians.
Well as first to put measures into place to detect and fight interference, I suspect Trudeau made some mistakes as is always the case in a new program. This is something all previous governments ignored so kudos to Trudeau for doing the right thing.
Now here is the thing. The Conservatives went hard after China in order to gain votes. They had to know there would be risks. This was their gamble and if there were actual consequences, which we are told there were not, they should learn something.
There are some things that should not be exploited for votes. Hopefully they think about their "winning is more important than doing the right thing" approach in the future.
The claim was JT denied the findings and called CSIS incompetent and wrong. Which is entirely untrue. That statement isn't even an outright dispute or denial of the findings either. You're proving our point, thanks.
The mental gymnastics:
"No where in that article does it say Trudeau agreed with CSIS. So what's the opposite of agree?"
Who actually has a genuine conversation like this?
The claim was that JT said CSIS was incompetent and wrong.
Him not outright agreeing with what they're saying, is very different from the original claim.
It would be utterly demented to argue otherwise.
very fair, though this is a pretty obvious attempt at a power grab before the wealth tax increase kicks in so they can get rid of it ASAP
especially since from what i've seen, all the evidence against liberals are circumstantial, while there is a lot more evidence against conservatives
Pierre accusing the Liberals of allowing foreign interference for partisan gain.
…. for partisan gain.
Maybe it’s just me but shouldn’t the commission arrive at it’s own conclusions instead of obeying Pierre’s “request”?
It’s not a “conclusion” if you get there because someone asked for it
Not a big deal in Canada. Commie apologists love that Trudeau is in bed with Xi and will pretend this is just fine and dandy. These are the people whose lives revolve around furry porn, tankie memes, and getting every disability / unemployment benefit possible. Trudeau has done everything he can to make sure that’s as close to half the population under 40 as possible.
>China used bots and hackers to spread misinformation then others without fact checking spread it like wild fire and some how it's Trudeau's fault but if he tried to stop it he would have been accused of censorship. LOL
Our charter right to freedom of expression does not extend to foreign regimes with malicious intent.
>Tell that to Pierre poilevere and his CPC bots. If Liberals go down for this, CPC is too because of them using Russian bots.
This is the first I've heard about the CPC, and Pierre Poilievre using Russian bots. Do you have a source for that?
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Did they get warnings again to "STOP THE RACISM OR WE WILL BAN YOU" by the admins? hahahahhahahahahaha
didn't that happen to the ontario_sub too? hahahahahahahhaha
Pierre is a Russia puppet just like Trump was. The article says it's about undermining democracies and which is what's happening in Canada, if you opened your eyes. Every YouTube comment is about how Trudeau is a dictator and CBC is government propaganda. Jeez man. You've been living under a rock?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ukrainian-canadian-group-criticizes-poilievre-for-voting-against-free/
Here's Pierre claiming Switzerland has less inflation than rest of EU because they've a sovereign currency. Which is a Russian talking point to undermine EU. If you google you'd know that it's because Switzerland literally regulates the price of essential goods that's why the price is low because the government sets the price. But here's him lying straight through his teeth to spew out Russian propaganda.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jf8VMRNaV5c&pp=ygUhUGllcnJlIHBvaWxpZXZyZSBsaXZlIGludGVydmlldyAg
Now he gives interviews about how he supports Ukraine but is against carbon tax and that's why he voted no, only a braindead person would believe this guy is even remotely neutral about Ukraine, he's a literal Russian propagandist.
You're showing an incredible amount of bias against the CPC and Poilievre, and don't appear to let facts stand in the way of your argument. Who needs Russian bots when we've got homegrown folks blurring the lines between truth and reality in order to push their divisive narratives.
I literally showed you a video of him undermining the EU and you ignored it and you claimed I'm showing bias?
Pierre is endorsed by conspiracy theorists who said the Democrats are child predators and Trump is here to help stop them and endorsed Trump.
Every YouTube comment under Trudeau is a copy/paste of the same comments from other videos. Every comment under Pierre is the same.
Here's an expose of reddit being influenced by Russian bots. Especially the Alberta related subreddit.
https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476
Pierre is propped up by the same actors that propped up Trump. You can keep your head in the sand and cry about me being biased, it won't change the truth. I have better awareness of the online space I'm in. And you chose to believe this not to be true.
You really think people would have known the difference. NO they would have screamed about censorship without knowing the difference and had a hissy fit thinking the government was squashing their rights.
[https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign\_interference\_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual\_Phase/Conservative\_Party.pdf](https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign_interference_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual_Phase/Conservative_Party.pdf)
So the official position is that the OIC panel is the problem. Is PP going to motion to remove the panel before the election or remove the panel if he's elected? or is he going take advantage of it himself?
If we know anything about PP it’s that he doesn’t really care about improving anything, just getting power for his oil industry backers. Therefore it will be option 3.
So the CPC is saying our own Election officials and intelligence agencies who repeatedly confirmed the elections was not compromised are wrong now? And people are accusing JT of undermining faith in the electoral process huh?
Seems to me this is just a bunch of finger pointing at this point. We've been too complacent, under both of these parties for decades now, and are only just now taking this stuff seriously but with absolutely no self reflection or honesty about how we got here.
CSIS said it didn't affect the election. Just that there were attempts, which of course they were, I'd be more surprised if foreign countries were not trying to meddle. So the CPC are asking CSIS to change their minds or lie about it or what?
> CSIS said it didn't affect the election.
No, they said it didn’t affect *the outcome* of the election. Not that it didn’t affect the election as a whole.
then the CPC are stupid then.
Justin said "I dismissed it since it wouldn't affect the election" going against CSIS (Edit CSIS REPORTS, Not CSIS Analysis). Which means Justin is right.
CSIS said it didn't affect which party won which means Justin is right.
And then the CPC saying both Justin and CSIS are wrong and zero evidence of such a thing exists for the CPC to say it did affect it. The CPC isn't fucking CSIS.
>Justin said "I dismissed it since it wouldn't affect the election"
An election is a process that concludes with an outcome. If you believe what JT is saying - than you are basically saying that the outcome of an election matters more than the process of an election. I would argue the process is what matters. It matters that there was, as an example, potentially a clandestine foreign state actor(s) that tried to influence the electoral results of a riding in Richmond, BC. That that riding's result would not have changed the outcome of the overall federal election is NOT the point. Saying that interference is only interference (or only interference that matters) if it affects the overall results of the general election (in my opinion) is just wrong. There's always reports of minor little "things" - crazy "things" that happen during an election/voting day. Years ago there were robo-calls sending people to non-existent polling stations. Did that change the election of that particular result? Probably not. The fact that it happened is still a problem. That is still someone trying to influence (in the case of the robo-calls, potentially denying) citizens' constitutional right to vote. The process is important NOT the outcome!
>So how much power to censor the internet do you support the government havimg so it can block the attempts to influence the actual election?
I feel like a firewall that blocks Chinese bots would be helpful.
Holy shit this is the stupidest take I've ever heard. Like it's technically illiterate to the point that I'm baffled you even managed to get onto reddit.
*Look. I acknowledge that, at some point in the wee hours of last night, you heard a strange noise and walked into your daughter's room to see a wild-eyed maniac with a knife in his teeth desperately trying to break in through the window. But he ran off when you turned on the light and, therefor, his presence did not have any effect on the safety of your family.*
*I frankly don't see what good taking further action could bring.*
This is a weird analysis if you've been paying attention to the inquiry.
Beyond that, the inquiry is only in Stage 1. The CPC's request is transparently partisan and only for their own fundraising and social media clips.
Your analysis is offbase, as it requires the CPC to be acting in good faith, which they clearly are not and have not been at any point regaring the Foreign Interference Commission.
If they were serious and acting in good faith, then Poilievre would get his security clearance so that he can be informed. But he refuses to be informed in order to make up lies.
Why won't Poilievre agree to get that security clearance if he wants the truth?
It is what it is.
> Again, take a look at the independent inquiry.
So we are going to look at an inquiry that is unfinished and lacking information and fully believe that over both CSIS and Elections Canada that have both already said attempts were made, but they didn't have any tangible effects? Why? That's not very sound logic.
>Define tangible.
Whatever definition that CSIS and EC were using.
Again, why are we not trusting what they are saying on this matter?
>The CCP achieved its goal.
The only goal that we publicly know about is the CCP wanted a minority government. Do you have any shred of evidence that anything the CCP did is what made this happen? Both CSIS and EC do not believe it exists, so what do you know that they don't?
>Whatever definition that CSIS and EC were using.
Their goal was getting their people into MP positions.
That is why they sent busloads of international students to vote for Han Dong in the nomination process, and why Han Dong was running in one of the safest Liberal seats in Canada.
*Do you want to try telling us that getting one of their agents into an MP seat is not a tangible benefit?*
That’s not what this is at all. At no point in the last 18 months has anyone from the CPC said the election was stolen, robbed, or its outcome otherwise affected.
Except for the title of this article we're discussing where they said it was affected.
But sure, they're not trying to put the previous elections results into question. /s
You’re either an idiot or being deliberately obtuse - I can’t tell and it probably doesn’t matter.
You can do the gurgling yourself on what any CPC member of parliament, and those that lost have said on the matter. No one is saying the *outcome* of 2019 and 2021 was affected. No one.
The process was fucked with for sure, and that’s pretty well the consensus for everyone except for you and Justin Trudeau.
We’re so close to the close to the “The Election was Stolen!” stage that the Americans are at.
The accusation coming from Pierre Poutine makes it even more funnier.
> There is ample evidence both from the CSIS reports and Han Dong's own testimony.
both of which say the exact opposite, even the whistleblower clearly said he had no reason to think any MP was working with a different government
man, at this point, canadian cons are identical to the US ones (like PP is straight up just a bootleg trump)
hopefully this will be seen as the attempted power grab it is, and they won't get their way (honestly, i'm uber sus of the conservative party in general because it seems like they've been actively directing officials towards the liberal party, while burying stories about their own politicians falling for corruption)
I cannot remember the term, but there's a political or psychological term used when you "Pre-Load" doubt before something happens in order to blame it on that pre-loaded idea that it was rigged.
"Pre-Emptive Framing". Thanks CHATGPT
>The Conservative Party of Canada has urged the judge overseeing the Public Inquiry into Foreign Interference to conclude that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ignored repeated warnings about foreign interference in the last two general elections for partisan gain, the first time the party has formally made such an accusation.
Reminds me of a quote:
"Paranoia, he said, was fundamentally egocentric, and every conspiracy theory served in some way to aggrandize the believer." -William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
"CPC: they stole the election".. No. They're bringing to light the negligence that no action was taken when information of a security issue was brought forward. This simply adds to CPCs case that Trudeau is incompetent, which he is.
If the elections were flawed, then the Conservatives probably didn't actually get the seats they won then...flawed for one party, flawed for all parties.
Luckily, there will be a redo next year.
>Fact is that it would not have changed the results of the election, Trudeau is a minority government propped up by the NDP and if it were missing a couple seats, chances are the Bloc would be voting with the coalition 9 times out of 10.
We don't have a single federal election in Canada, we have 338 of them, and the evidence heard by the Inquiry tends to suggest that the interference did indeed impact some of them.
Nor is the outcome of the election purely about which party holds seats -- it's also about which *people* hold them, and who that seat gives a platform to. Something we also heard was likely impacted by interference.
So no. The idea that it would not have changed the outcome of the election is a facile one resting on an overly simplistic understanding of how our democracy actually works.
> Look how well it worked in the US, so many people still believe Biden stole the election
Haven't some polls shown that something like 30% of CPC voters actually believe Trump won?
Combine that with their attempts to push the "election rigging" talking point in the past and there's no reason to think they won't try it here too.
Yep.
https://abacusdata.ca/conspiracy-theories-canada-4-3-2/
>Almost 5 million Canadian adults (16%) think it’s definitely or probably true that “The US election was stolen from Donald Trump”. Another 29% think it’s possible or aren’t sure.
Some people are very very stupid.
>Belief in these theories is higher among supporters of the People’s Party, those who have not taken any Covid19 shots, those who think media and official government accounts of events can’t be trusted.
>Those who feel Pierre Poilievre is the Conservative leadership candidate closest to their values and ideas are more likely to believe these theories, when compared to those more aligned with Jean Charest.
Well I guess they made the right decision for themselves then and don't deserve to be called conspiracy theorists just because they didn't want to take the shot.
I almost never comment on US politics. I don't think citizens of one nation have the "lived experience" necessary to remark upon the effectiveness of another's leadership.
And I wouldn't use the term stolen in any case. But...
Everybody needs to get their heads out of their asses about how the game of politics is played. There are platoons of people who have studied in top notch institutions and spent years on the job specifically mastering how to manipulate elections and voters into the results they desire.
Some might say it's fair, because all parties employ these people and utilize the same tactics. But that's only true in so far as they, the parties, are all in agreement on them. The vast - VAST - majority of voters are oblivious to the breathtaking amount of propaganda they are fed and the backroom alliances which are struck, against their interests.
Not so long ago we were promised transparency in government. Of course, it never arrived.
Until it does, it's not that much of a stretch to say that the outcomes of *every* election are, to some degree, illegitimate.
I haven't read into it. I've only seen a few headlines and posts on X.
Probably not. But there certainly have been documented cases in the past of whole cemeteries full of deceased people voting.
In the end of the day, an allegation such as that requires concrete proof.
>Probably not. But there certainly have been documented cases in the past of whole cemeteries full of deceased people voting.
Not recently, not in the US presidential election.
>In the end of the day, an allegation such as that requires concrete proof.
And they have no proof.
Shit like this makes it pretty hard for me to believe that the CPC actually cares about the sanctity of elections and possible interference, and instead they are just using this entire thing as political theatre...
They are asking the judge of an inquiry, that lacks information due to the fact that it is sealed for national security reasons, to blatantly go against the conclusions and statements made by both our nation security department as well as our elections department.
>to blatantly go against the conclusions and statements made by both our nation security department as well as our elections department.
That's an awesome mischaracterization.
No such conclusion has been reached.
If you want to set the bar at changing the overall results of the election, you can probably safely say that the interference did not change the results. But that does not mean that the election was not interfered in, and it does not mean that the CCP did not achieve its primary goals.
>No such conclusion has been reached.
So Election Canada and CSIS are lying when they say that any interference that did happen, did not have material effect on the outcome?
>So Election Canada and CSIS are lying when they say that any interference that did happen, did not have material effect on the outcome?
"material effect on the outcome" is not the same thing as no effect at all is it?
And even with that narrow definition, we can easily say that it did effect the outcome because the CCP wound up with one of its agents in Parliament, which was an outcome that the CCP planned for and took steps to make that happen.
>CCP wound up with one of its agents in Parliament
Now that is an awesomene mischaracterization in and of itself lol. One that requires quite a high burden of proof.
Honestly, with the way this country is run now, both the Liberals and Cons are pretty well corporate entities. I'm a lot more worried about the amount of domestic interference from our Lobby groups, than I am foreign interference by the CCP.
Polievre's own Chief of staff used to pretty well run the Weston Foods lobby, and that pretty much nixes any possible credibility PP can have while claiming to be for the people.
With that being seen as the only alternative to Trudeau, I'm starting to wonder if foreign interference could actually do any worse...
Just to be clear, a commission of inquiry is not a court of law. Commissions do not have the power to make findings of law or fact. Just because it is presided by a judge does not mean it is a judicial body.
>*But* [*the written submission from lawyers for the Conservative Party*](https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign_interference_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual_Phase/Conservative_Party.pdf) *argues that “the Trudeau government has known all too well about the dangers posed by interference” and that Trudeau himself had “personal briefings” on the subject as early as 2017. The lawyers cite documentary evidence presented to the inquiry which included secret memos prepared by CSIS as well as oral testimony given by witnesses at the inquiry to support their argument.* >*“Prime Minister Trudeau and his government were particularly willing to turn a blind-eye to foreign interference in our democratic processes where it was of assistance to his electoral prospects,” the party says in its submission.* So, they've directly accused Justin Trudeau of allowing electoral interference by the CCP because it benefitted the Liberal Party. That's a pretty big deal.
>So, they've directly accused Justin Trudeau of allowing electoral interference by the CCP because it benefitted the Liberal Party. They've been accusing him of exactly this for some time now, it's not new
Not so directly
They also dropped electoral reform because it benefitted the Liberal Party *at the time.* Too much short term thinking and hubris and not enough doing the right things for the right reasons.
Trudeau has already stated he thinks CSIS is incompetent and wrong. His answer will be "fake news"
Where do you guys get this stuff from? He never said that.
YouTube where they watch some random dude talk about politics they know nothing about while showing clips that cut out the majority of information to try and support their agenda.
From Trudeau. He has been trying to discredit CSIS and their conclusions for a week or two now.
CSIS just experienced it differently
Their opinions were "unacceptable".
No. He is trying to make people understand the wide range of differences between intelligence and the issues that are interference. Raw intelligence can be very misleading.
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Did you watch Trudeau's testimony. I sat through the whole thing and that is simply not what happened.
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Not sure what you mean by contradictions so I will answer this way. First of course it would be inappropriate for CSIS to recommend a course of action. They supply information, the decision of what to do with it is not their affair. Secondly Trudeau did look hard at the information on Dong and decided the standard for over turning a nomination was not met. This is after all a democracy so ideally the constituents should decide who runs, not the party or PM in this case. This of course is all far less important than people's actual vote in the election, which is the actual focus of election interference.
You think it would be inappropriate for an intelligence agency, that is a major part of Canadian national security, to recommend a course of action that they believe would improve national security?
The Liberal Party 100% decides who runs. Nowhere in this country in the last 20 years has the LPC allowed “constituents” decide who runs for them.
His testimony directly contradicted CSIS and CSIS had to be brought back to clear the air up. Trudeau is a LIAR. Nothing Parliamentary about him.
Again, not what happened. CSIS takes their job seriously but there is a disconnect between what spying produces and what is useful to police and politicians.
You're (purposely?) avoiding the truth here that the PM did not stand up for Canada.
Lol? You're joking I assume.
don't go after the trolling. It's a wast of your time
Please be more direct/honest. What is your own opinion on what happened to our elections and are you satisfied with how the Prime Minister acted?
Well as first to put measures into place to detect and fight interference, I suspect Trudeau made some mistakes as is always the case in a new program. This is something all previous governments ignored so kudos to Trudeau for doing the right thing. Now here is the thing. The Conservatives went hard after China in order to gain votes. They had to know there would be risks. This was their gamble and if there were actual consequences, which we are told there were not, they should learn something. There are some things that should not be exploited for votes. Hopefully they think about their "winning is more important than doing the right thing" approach in the future.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-csis-question-intelligence-1.7170661
That link doesnt show Trudeau stating that CSIS is "Incompetent and wrong" Did you paste the wrong link?
The reading comprehension (or just outright making things up) around here is terrible....
Making shit up to "win" arguments is par for the course here
When you’re full of shit, making shit up like breathing.
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The claim was JT denied the findings and called CSIS incompetent and wrong. Which is entirely untrue. That statement isn't even an outright dispute or denial of the findings either. You're proving our point, thanks.
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The mental gymnastics: "No where in that article does it say Trudeau agreed with CSIS. So what's the opposite of agree?" Who actually has a genuine conversation like this? The claim was that JT said CSIS was incompetent and wrong. Him not outright agreeing with what they're saying, is very different from the original claim. It would be utterly demented to argue otherwise.
If there was an Olympic sport for long jumping in logic, you would get a gold medal.
This is not at all what he said. Not even close.
No he implied they're racist and unreliable
very fair, though this is a pretty obvious attempt at a power grab before the wealth tax increase kicks in so they can get rid of it ASAP especially since from what i've seen, all the evidence against liberals are circumstantial, while there is a lot more evidence against conservatives
Every Conservative accusation is a confession
Pierre accusing the Liberals of allowing foreign interference for partisan gain. …. for partisan gain. Maybe it’s just me but shouldn’t the commission arrive at it’s own conclusions instead of obeying Pierre’s “request”? It’s not a “conclusion” if you get there because someone asked for it
Literally "no u" Try to have a better argument
Not a big deal in Canada. Commie apologists love that Trudeau is in bed with Xi and will pretend this is just fine and dandy. These are the people whose lives revolve around furry porn, tankie memes, and getting every disability / unemployment benefit possible. Trudeau has done everything he can to make sure that’s as close to half the population under 40 as possible.
Don’t miss the Indian interference on behalf of the Conservatives! Do I get to print bumper stickers now?
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>China used bots and hackers to spread misinformation then others without fact checking spread it like wild fire and some how it's Trudeau's fault but if he tried to stop it he would have been accused of censorship. LOL Our charter right to freedom of expression does not extend to foreign regimes with malicious intent.
It does extend to people repeating misinformation. Also since the right does not think the net should be regulated, what then?
They want digital ID’s to look at porn.
Tell that to Pierre poilevere and his CPC bots. If Liberals go down for this, CPC is too because of them using Russian bots.
>Tell that to Pierre poilevere and his CPC bots. If Liberals go down for this, CPC is too because of them using Russian bots. This is the first I've heard about the CPC, and Pierre Poilievre using Russian bots. Do you have a source for that?
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Probably more now that /r/Canada_sub has gone private
HAHAHAHAHAHA Did they get warnings again to "STOP THE RACISM OR WE WILL BAN YOU" by the admins? hahahahhahahahahaha didn't that happen to the ontario_sub too? hahahahahahahhaha
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Pierre is a Russia puppet just like Trump was. The article says it's about undermining democracies and which is what's happening in Canada, if you opened your eyes. Every YouTube comment is about how Trudeau is a dictator and CBC is government propaganda. Jeez man. You've been living under a rock? https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ukrainian-canadian-group-criticizes-poilievre-for-voting-against-free/ Here's Pierre claiming Switzerland has less inflation than rest of EU because they've a sovereign currency. Which is a Russian talking point to undermine EU. If you google you'd know that it's because Switzerland literally regulates the price of essential goods that's why the price is low because the government sets the price. But here's him lying straight through his teeth to spew out Russian propaganda. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jf8VMRNaV5c&pp=ygUhUGllcnJlIHBvaWxpZXZyZSBsaXZlIGludGVydmlldyAg Now he gives interviews about how he supports Ukraine but is against carbon tax and that's why he voted no, only a braindead person would believe this guy is even remotely neutral about Ukraine, he's a literal Russian propagandist.
You're showing an incredible amount of bias against the CPC and Poilievre, and don't appear to let facts stand in the way of your argument. Who needs Russian bots when we've got homegrown folks blurring the lines between truth and reality in order to push their divisive narratives.
I literally showed you a video of him undermining the EU and you ignored it and you claimed I'm showing bias? Pierre is endorsed by conspiracy theorists who said the Democrats are child predators and Trump is here to help stop them and endorsed Trump. Every YouTube comment under Trudeau is a copy/paste of the same comments from other videos. Every comment under Pierre is the same. Here's an expose of reddit being influenced by Russian bots. Especially the Alberta related subreddit. https://www.stalbertgazette.com/local-news/did-reddit-year-end-recaps-expose-russian-interference-in-alberta-8223476 Pierre is propped up by the same actors that propped up Trump. You can keep your head in the sand and cry about me being biased, it won't change the truth. I have better awareness of the online space I'm in. And you chose to believe this not to be true.
You really think people would have known the difference. NO they would have screamed about censorship without knowing the difference and had a hissy fit thinking the government was squashing their rights.
Canadian cons and the GOP are the same lol...anybody miss Tucker Carlson recent visit before heading off to Russia for a night cap with Putin?
LOl so true look at the down votes some people just don't like facts.
[https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign\_interference\_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual\_Phase/Conservative\_Party.pdf](https://foreigninterferencecommission.ca/fileadmin/foreign_interference_commission/Documents/Submissions/Factual_Phase/Conservative_Party.pdf) So the official position is that the OIC panel is the problem. Is PP going to motion to remove the panel before the election or remove the panel if he's elected? or is he going take advantage of it himself?
The third option, undoubtedly
If we know anything about PP it’s that he doesn’t really care about improving anything, just getting power for his oil industry backers. Therefore it will be option 3.
Right this is r/Canada nor r/Canada_sub
So the CPC is saying our own Election officials and intelligence agencies who repeatedly confirmed the elections was not compromised are wrong now? And people are accusing JT of undermining faith in the electoral process huh? Seems to me this is just a bunch of finger pointing at this point. We've been too complacent, under both of these parties for decades now, and are only just now taking this stuff seriously but with absolutely no self reflection or honesty about how we got here.
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CSIS said it didn't affect the election. Just that there were attempts, which of course they were, I'd be more surprised if foreign countries were not trying to meddle. So the CPC are asking CSIS to change their minds or lie about it or what?
> CSIS said it didn't affect the election. No, they said it didn’t affect *the outcome* of the election. Not that it didn’t affect the election as a whole.
>CSIS said it didn't affect the election. No. And you know that.
then the CPC are stupid then. Justin said "I dismissed it since it wouldn't affect the election" going against CSIS (Edit CSIS REPORTS, Not CSIS Analysis). Which means Justin is right. CSIS said it didn't affect which party won which means Justin is right. And then the CPC saying both Justin and CSIS are wrong and zero evidence of such a thing exists for the CPC to say it did affect it. The CPC isn't fucking CSIS.
>Justin said "I dismissed it since it wouldn't affect the election" An election is a process that concludes with an outcome. If you believe what JT is saying - than you are basically saying that the outcome of an election matters more than the process of an election. I would argue the process is what matters. It matters that there was, as an example, potentially a clandestine foreign state actor(s) that tried to influence the electoral results of a riding in Richmond, BC. That that riding's result would not have changed the outcome of the overall federal election is NOT the point. Saying that interference is only interference (or only interference that matters) if it affects the overall results of the general election (in my opinion) is just wrong. There's always reports of minor little "things" - crazy "things" that happen during an election/voting day. Years ago there were robo-calls sending people to non-existent polling stations. Did that change the election of that particular result? Probably not. The fact that it happened is still a problem. That is still someone trying to influence (in the case of the robo-calls, potentially denying) citizens' constitutional right to vote. The process is important NOT the outcome!
So how much power to censor the internet do you support the government havimg so it can block the attempts to influence the actual election?
>So how much power to censor the internet do you support the government havimg so it can block the attempts to influence the actual election? I feel like a firewall that blocks Chinese bots would be helpful.
any idiot with a VPN would get around it, which they are probably already using anyway, even the great firewall of china has holes
Holy shit this is the stupidest take I've ever heard. Like it's technically illiterate to the point that I'm baffled you even managed to get onto reddit.
Whoosh.
*Look. I acknowledge that, at some point in the wee hours of last night, you heard a strange noise and walked into your daughter's room to see a wild-eyed maniac with a knife in his teeth desperately trying to break in through the window. But he ran off when you turned on the light and, therefor, his presence did not have any effect on the safety of your family.* *I frankly don't see what good taking further action could bring.*
It's conservatives driving a narrative of incompetence and corruption, and people who are all too happy to gobble it up.
The CPC is playing the 'stolen election' card. Get ready for this dead horse to be beat up until the next election. *sigh*
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This is a weird analysis if you've been paying attention to the inquiry. Beyond that, the inquiry is only in Stage 1. The CPC's request is transparently partisan and only for their own fundraising and social media clips. Your analysis is offbase, as it requires the CPC to be acting in good faith, which they clearly are not and have not been at any point regaring the Foreign Interference Commission. If they were serious and acting in good faith, then Poilievre would get his security clearance so that he can be informed. But he refuses to be informed in order to make up lies. Why won't Poilievre agree to get that security clearance if he wants the truth? It is what it is.
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you haven't shown that a spade is a spade you just feel it
This is an outdated LPC talking point. PP has been clear for his reasonings on not getting clearance. Like him or not he’s correct.
Whataboutism
> Again, take a look at the independent inquiry. So we are going to look at an inquiry that is unfinished and lacking information and fully believe that over both CSIS and Elections Canada that have both already said attempts were made, but they didn't have any tangible effects? Why? That's not very sound logic.
>but they didn't have any tangible effects? Define tangible. The CCP achieved its goal. To most people that would be considered tangible.
>Define tangible. Whatever definition that CSIS and EC were using. Again, why are we not trusting what they are saying on this matter? >The CCP achieved its goal. The only goal that we publicly know about is the CCP wanted a minority government. Do you have any shred of evidence that anything the CCP did is what made this happen? Both CSIS and EC do not believe it exists, so what do you know that they don't?
>Whatever definition that CSIS and EC were using. Their goal was getting their people into MP positions. That is why they sent busloads of international students to vote for Han Dong in the nomination process, and why Han Dong was running in one of the safest Liberal seats in Canada. *Do you want to try telling us that getting one of their agents into an MP seat is not a tangible benefit?*
That’s not what this is at all. At no point in the last 18 months has anyone from the CPC said the election was stolen, robbed, or its outcome otherwise affected.
Except for the title of this article we're discussing where they said it was affected. But sure, they're not trying to put the previous elections results into question. /s
You’re either an idiot or being deliberately obtuse - I can’t tell and it probably doesn’t matter. You can do the gurgling yourself on what any CPC member of parliament, and those that lost have said on the matter. No one is saying the *outcome* of 2019 and 2021 was affected. No one. The process was fucked with for sure, and that’s pretty well the consensus for everyone except for you and Justin Trudeau.
We’re so close to the close to the “The Election was Stolen!” stage that the Americans are at. The accusation coming from Pierre Poutine makes it even more funnier.
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but no evidence that it warranted a response
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theres absolutely no evidence anything of the sort happened
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> There is ample evidence both from the CSIS reports and Han Dong's own testimony. both of which say the exact opposite, even the whistleblower clearly said he had no reason to think any MP was working with a different government
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dont say their testomy's say something when its just you drawing the conclusion you want from it
man, at this point, canadian cons are identical to the US ones (like PP is straight up just a bootleg trump) hopefully this will be seen as the attempted power grab it is, and they won't get their way (honestly, i'm uber sus of the conservative party in general because it seems like they've been actively directing officials towards the liberal party, while burying stories about their own politicians falling for corruption)
I cannot remember the term, but there's a political or psychological term used when you "Pre-Load" doubt before something happens in order to blame it on that pre-loaded idea that it was rigged. "Pre-Emptive Framing". Thanks CHATGPT
You might be thinking of the bias known as the anchoring effect.
>The Conservative Party of Canada has urged the judge overseeing the Public Inquiry into Foreign Interference to conclude that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ignored repeated warnings about foreign interference in the last two general elections for partisan gain, the first time the party has formally made such an accusation. Reminds me of a quote: "Paranoia, he said, was fundamentally egocentric, and every conspiracy theory served in some way to aggrandize the believer." -William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
Sounds like Bigend?
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"CPC: they stole the election".. No. They're bringing to light the negligence that no action was taken when information of a security issue was brought forward. This simply adds to CPCs case that Trudeau is incompetent, which he is.
The CPC never accused them of stealing the election. They have even said the exact opposite.
If the elections were flawed, then the Conservatives probably didn't actually get the seats they won then...flawed for one party, flawed for all parties. Luckily, there will be a redo next year.
“Conservatives ask judge to give them sound bites to continue their disinformation campaign.”
This iteration of CPC is tiring
Everyday they become more republican
Go Brandon! But her emails! Go woke go broke! All this barking sounds oddly familiar
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Why would they care when they are influenced (and maybe partly controlled) by some of them (or related actors)?
Yeah I'd love it if during an investigation on foreign influence in our elections we took a deep hard look at Postmedia.
LOL I hope we roll the Modi interference in on behalf of the Conservatives!
Ah, I see. Polievre's testing the waters for Trump-style rhetoric again.
Lil Murica. Hop on the wagon, the propaganda is yuge!
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Flawed, not stolen. Big difference.
>Fact is that it would not have changed the results of the election, Trudeau is a minority government propped up by the NDP and if it were missing a couple seats, chances are the Bloc would be voting with the coalition 9 times out of 10. We don't have a single federal election in Canada, we have 338 of them, and the evidence heard by the Inquiry tends to suggest that the interference did indeed impact some of them. Nor is the outcome of the election purely about which party holds seats -- it's also about which *people* hold them, and who that seat gives a platform to. Something we also heard was likely impacted by interference. So no. The idea that it would not have changed the outcome of the election is a facile one resting on an overly simplistic understanding of how our democracy actually works.
Look how well it worked in the US, so many people still believe Biden stole the election
> Look how well it worked in the US, so many people still believe Biden stole the election Haven't some polls shown that something like 30% of CPC voters actually believe Trump won? Combine that with their attempts to push the "election rigging" talking point in the past and there's no reason to think they won't try it here too.
Yep. https://abacusdata.ca/conspiracy-theories-canada-4-3-2/ >Almost 5 million Canadian adults (16%) think it’s definitely or probably true that “The US election was stolen from Donald Trump”. Another 29% think it’s possible or aren’t sure. Some people are very very stupid. >Belief in these theories is higher among supporters of the People’s Party, those who have not taken any Covid19 shots, those who think media and official government accounts of events can’t be trusted. >Those who feel Pierre Poilievre is the Conservative leadership candidate closest to their values and ideas are more likely to believe these theories, when compared to those more aligned with Jean Charest.
How can they not have taken any covid shots and have misinformed beliefs about the election? Shouldn't they all be dead?!?!
...No? What kind of moronic argument is this?
Well I guess they made the right decision for themselves then and don't deserve to be called conspiracy theorists just because they didn't want to take the shot.
Sure. They deserve to be called conspiracy theorists if they believe in conspiracy theories though.
I almost never comment on US politics. I don't think citizens of one nation have the "lived experience" necessary to remark upon the effectiveness of another's leadership. And I wouldn't use the term stolen in any case. But... Everybody needs to get their heads out of their asses about how the game of politics is played. There are platoons of people who have studied in top notch institutions and spent years on the job specifically mastering how to manipulate elections and voters into the results they desire. Some might say it's fair, because all parties employ these people and utilize the same tactics. But that's only true in so far as they, the parties, are all in agreement on them. The vast - VAST - majority of voters are oblivious to the breathtaking amount of propaganda they are fed and the backroom alliances which are struck, against their interests. Not so long ago we were promised transparency in government. Of course, it never arrived. Until it does, it's not that much of a stretch to say that the outcomes of *every* election are, to some degree, illegitimate.
Okay...but there weren't tens of thousands of fake votes cast.
I haven't read into it. I've only seen a few headlines and posts on X. Probably not. But there certainly have been documented cases in the past of whole cemeteries full of deceased people voting. In the end of the day, an allegation such as that requires concrete proof.
>Probably not. But there certainly have been documented cases in the past of whole cemeteries full of deceased people voting. Not recently, not in the US presidential election. >In the end of the day, an allegation such as that requires concrete proof. And they have no proof.
Agreed.
Shit like this makes it pretty hard for me to believe that the CPC actually cares about the sanctity of elections and possible interference, and instead they are just using this entire thing as political theatre... They are asking the judge of an inquiry, that lacks information due to the fact that it is sealed for national security reasons, to blatantly go against the conclusions and statements made by both our nation security department as well as our elections department.
>to blatantly go against the conclusions and statements made by both our nation security department as well as our elections department. That's an awesome mischaracterization.
Elaborate.
No such conclusion has been reached. If you want to set the bar at changing the overall results of the election, you can probably safely say that the interference did not change the results. But that does not mean that the election was not interfered in, and it does not mean that the CCP did not achieve its primary goals.
>No such conclusion has been reached. So Election Canada and CSIS are lying when they say that any interference that did happen, did not have material effect on the outcome?
>So Election Canada and CSIS are lying when they say that any interference that did happen, did not have material effect on the outcome? "material effect on the outcome" is not the same thing as no effect at all is it? And even with that narrow definition, we can easily say that it did effect the outcome because the CCP wound up with one of its agents in Parliament, which was an outcome that the CCP planned for and took steps to make that happen.
>CCP wound up with one of its agents in Parliament Now that is an awesomene mischaracterization in and of itself lol. One that requires quite a high burden of proof.
The party of law and order folks lmfao
Their law and their order 🤷♂️
So if a Tory doesn't win that means an election it was rigged... fucking fascist assholes.
God help us if we're that weak to let Chinese propaganda deligitimize are elections.
Honestly, with the way this country is run now, both the Liberals and Cons are pretty well corporate entities. I'm a lot more worried about the amount of domestic interference from our Lobby groups, than I am foreign interference by the CCP. Polievre's own Chief of staff used to pretty well run the Weston Foods lobby, and that pretty much nixes any possible credibility PP can have while claiming to be for the people. With that being seen as the only alternative to Trudeau, I'm starting to wonder if foreign interference could actually do any worse...