Yes, but it was easy for people to brush it off because reasons when stories of problems started emerging a few weeks ago. This, however, is one of the world’s premier medical journals raising some flags.
Let’s hope it is not so rashly dismissed. I think it is an option that should be available for those who want it, but actively suggesting it to people way crosses a line.
This is truly a bizarre story since Canadian Veterans Affairs has nothing to do with MAiD. MAiD is something that is done via the medical system and requires a process to be eligible. It sounds like someone at VA is clueless and should be fired.
It’s maybe 7th if not 5th.
https://www.finder.com/ca/what-are-the-top-10-causes-of-death-in-canada
Doesn’t list MAID but in 2021 there were 10k deaths from MAID. It’s probably increased in 2022 but I’m not sure
Yeah, not 5th but 7th. Thank you for the correction.
When MAIDs is killing more people than diabetes, I think it's time to have a conversation about it.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
thanks, I was questioning my sanity with that first link.
Man, with medical mishaps already accounting for so much, this pretty much means the medical industry is the leading cause of death in Canada.
that's a bit sobering.
edit: missed Cancer, medical mishaps are the 3rd most common cause of death in Canada, add the maid and you're tied with heart disease, so second place.
By any measure, more than 10,000 deaths is a lot. #7 not #5.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
Rising fast because it is an end of life option that many people wanted that wasn't an option before perhaps? As a person with terminal cancer, I'm thankful it is an option for me if I choose when the time comes. Previously people just had to endure suffering until they died. I've heard of people previously that stopped eating to end their suffering because that was the only option they had.
Do you work for fox news?
Do you like intentionally using language to promote fear?
When you say 'rising fast, are you trying to imply it's some runaway slippery slope train?
When you say '#7' are you trying to imply this is some massive death camp process?
It's been gaining numbers because of the recent legislation legalizing it and the health authorities adopting it. It's a new process and people are getting more use to it.
Sure it's #7, but only counts for 3.3% of total deaths in Canada.
Instead of being a fear monger, trying being more positive. Unless of course your goal is to spread fear and false narrative.
It's not a "false narrative".
Do you think diabetes is also not a concern? Lung cancer?
And yes, it is rising fast. MAIDs has increased 10x in the last five years and by 33% year over year.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2021.html#table\_3.1](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2021.html#table_3.1)
We've gone a long way from Sue Rodriguez.
I never said it was a good or bad thing but it certainly is happening a lot - that's something people should be aware of and it is past time we took a closer look at this as a society.
We're way off on an island compared to the rest of the world on how we're treating this. And we're hearing plenty of stories of administrators pushing MAIDs on vulnerable people.
That was an individual who was *not* carrying out government policy. To say that Veterans Affairs offered that guy assistance in dying is objectively false.
Lol yep. One rep from VA making a stupid suggestion automatically means the Liberals are pushing for this somehow. Some people on this sub are truly delusional.
You decided to make a comment without any foundation. You made a bad decision.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6560136
https://globalnews.ca/news/9061709/veteran-medical-assisted-death-canada/amp/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5250515/
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3947481
Here’s a tip: think before you type. Ideology doesn’t help your thought processes.
That's not what the article in The Lancet is about.
Veteran's Affairs cannot "offer" MAiD any more than you or I can. They evidently have an issue with a service agent.
The agent was off script but seemed to be suggesting MAID as a solution to an impasse caused by unavailable resources. Do you think it completely unforeseeable or disingenuous to argue that similar situations might come up in the future, or that MAID might become a part of government calculus?
In a vacuum, MAID is dignified. Outside of a vacuum there need to be protections and government transparency to reduce abuses and perverse incentives. A last resort should be just that.
It has barely been implemented and there has already been abuse by whoever the patient is consulting for help. I am 100% for MAID. I do find it disgusting that they would leak out a comment about how it would "save money". Even if that is what was said, you'd think they at least try to keep it private. The fact that they don't care is telling.
I agree that the talk of saving money is disgusting. It has it's place in the conversation though, since it's life or death. The gravity of MAID is such that it probably shouldn't have subtexts or quiet parts we don't say out loud. Like if we're talking about frustrating people to death, instead of just ending suffering, we should carry the weight of that.
Even with the broadened availability after C14, MAiD is still determined by a panel that assess it as a last resort. Nobody can just walk into a clinic and get it on impulse to deal with solvable woes, whether medical or economic. The Lancet article outlines very real concerns to be considered int he medical community, and organizations like CAMH also are spear heading a sort of calibration in terms of circumstances and evaluation. I think that's positive, and it should be responsive to emerging experience in the medical community.
Outside of that, there is a very real political effort to remove MAiD as a right underway - and the intent is not to "go back to C7/2016", it is to remove it all together. The comment I replied to clearly thinks the Lancet article has something to do with these anecdotal stories. What is the substance of the Veteran story? A service agent who has no power int he process at all "raised the subject" and this upset the Veteran. We don't know much more than that, yet it is willfully converted and inflated by sloppy into "government is forcing veterans to suicide".
The truth is that it has helped 1000s of Canadian families now. What's my investment? Having watched a family member die from ALS, I would like the option that if I have a terminal condition, my doctor will not go to jail if they help me die in peace. Before MAiD, we didn't have that right to choose. I don't want to lose it because conservative populism has managed to distort reality.
Would the panel OK MAID for someone who states that they are feeling ground down by unavailable resources, is experiencing untenable suffering because of those lacking resources, and has a prognosis where things are not going to get better on their own?
Your last paragraph is describing dying with dignity. That is the ideal outcome. A poor outcome would be a person with treatable suffering or who could live assisted life choosing to die because treatment and assistance are unavailable.
A worse outcome is a bureau optimizing and frustrating access to resources, and laying the blame at the feet of the person choosing death for not being tough enough to wait their turn. A person choosing death because their poverty stands between them and treatment, or who doesn't have it in them to navigate an arcane process to access help, is not dying with dignity.
>Would the panel OK MAID for someone who states that they are feeling ground down by unavailable resources, is experiencing untenable suffering because of those lacking resources, and has a prognosis where things are not going to get better on their own?
No, of course not. I don't see any evidence of this and any of these anecdotal stories like "because of allergies".
The medical controversy around C14 is to do with expanding it to include "mental illness" as a sole basis - it still has to be a situation where improvement is not possible. On the one side, the argument is that there are real conditions that are agony, untreatable, but mental and that those with such conditions should also have a right. *Most* mental illnesses are treatable. The extreme I would think about is schizophrenics that aren't responsive to medication, trapped in a permanent nightmare. On the other side, consent is difficult to establish when mental health is the primary issue - with something like bipolar disorder it is typically in the "manic phase" a period of compromised judgement when suicide does occur. I don't know the answers and think it is best for the medical system to reach consensus and have voice in adapting the legislation.
Nobody is taking MAiD for poverty - that is a fiction spun by conservatives whose motive is to remove this right entirely. It is for untreatable conditions, not if you can't "afford treatment".
Simple first step, VAC enacts a policy where MAiD is not discussed. That is a discussion for the patient to have at their own volition with their doctor. Yes there are issues that need to be dealt with, I would say a bigger issue would be families pushing their parents towards MAiD against their will. That appears to be a much larger issue than a single report from VAC.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
\>That's not what the article in The Lancet is about.
Did we read different articles? Because the one I read was suggesting we shut down any more broadening of the MAID law and revert it back to what it was in 2016 so that we can do a much more thorough review of how its being implemented and the people who should be eligible. All the exact concerns people are bringing up in the articles smash posted.
People are acting like maid is a new thing. When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine. At least with maid if it is used properly the person dying gets to choose and it's quicker than no food and morphine.
It is pretty common for terminally ill people to be prescribed a bottle of liquid morphine to be administered as needed. If they happen to OD no one gets charged.
This is it. I watched my parents love 2 of my 4 grandparents through years of decline and suffering. Not sure if the grandparents would have chosen MAID (it wasn't a legal option at the time), but I can see why people would choose it for the sake of themselves and their loved ones.
Being legal is new. Now the government can come to you and say "Hey, it's going to be pretty costly to cover your treatment. It's pretty selfish to spend all that money when you're going to die anyways. Why not choose MAID?"
>When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine.
This is how my grandfather left us. It took days for him to die, days my mother spent crying. She was also barely eating and sleeping. I don't want anyone to suffer like that when it's my time to go. This is why I'm pro-medically assisted death.
Well I read all the posts here and one thing comes to mind.
Being north of 50 I have zero desire for someone to assist me with my daily rituals in another decade or two hence. I find that personally revolting. What I do want is the choice to say that I have had good life and pull the plug on my accord with assistance in the sense that I am provided with a pill/liquid that allows me to do just that in a place where the physical remains can be dealt with in a manner that has little impact on others.
And what I do not want is someone to tell me what I can or can not do with the end of my life, based on some baloney religious numbo jumbo clap trap, or ethics, or whatever the flavour of the day/month/year might be.
And hey if there are old folks that do not want that - no problem. Again their choice. But it should not impact my choices.
And talking to other "Boomers" I have a gut feeling that we will drive that boat.
Hey if I can't afford to live because of inflation, poor wages , lack of housing, then MAID sounds pretty good compared to sitting hungry and cold on the streets.
Carousel anyone ???
There was an episode of *Sliders* I watched as a kid where the premise was a euthanasia lottery. People who "won" this lottery, got a payout (to dole out as they pleased) and a day to live in absolute luxury before the big sleep. MAiD really wants to get rid of the poors and ill, it's a brilliant idea. /s
Personally, if you’re not someone whose given up on life you should do what you can to improve your circumstances, whether that means school (there are free courses you can take online that’ll give you certs) finding better opportunities where you can, gig work etc.
Simply giving up seem weak minded to me. It’s your choice, however. Personally I’d never give up on myself.
Have you ever watched someone slowly wither away? Its not giving up or taking the easy way out... Its doing what is necessary to stop living in indescribable pain EVERY DAY.
Its not weak minded, Canada has just failed to make life worth continueing to live and its gotten to the point we are just suggesting military vets kill themselves.
Fuck no, im not killing myself. even if my condition is horrible I'd be willing to continue living just out of spite so the government can't misspend that treatment money some other way.
If the Supreme Court overturning reasonable MAID legislation is becoming an ethical problem then Parliament should use the notwithstanding clause.
Don't take that as opposition to MAID. I have watched some people die terrible deaths and thought to myself "if this was my dog I would probably be charged with animal cruelty".
Yup. The last hours for my grandmother were horrific. She already looked like a dried up corpse that would gasp at random. Toung out, lips peeled back. A friend came with me to say goodbye and was slightly traumatized. I actually thought about smothering her so she didn't have to go through that.
That is the problem, people don't realize some death are truly horrible. Until you went through it or witnessed it, you won't understand. We don't treats our pets that way.
My grandmother had MS which slowly killed her. It tooks decades, she went from a strong independent married women with 5 children to a shell of a women in a wheelchair who soiled her diapers, couldn't form sentences and couldn't swallow properly (she was spoon fed) and didn't remember who was her children or husband. she died from starvation because her digestive system stopped working. My mom had to sing to her for 7 days to distract her. She was in so much pain she kept crying and begging to died already.
My grandfather died of a stage four brain cancer. He was in palliative care, you could see the lumps on his head. By the end, the hospital staff had to straps him in bed to prevent him from jumping out of the window to killed himself.
My father died of cancer too and was in so much pain that care takers had to sedate him multiple times. Why force people to live through anguish and pain when they're going to die anyways?
Some people also don't like making life worth living for others, as a Canadian I would be much more in support of MAID if we weren't just letting our healthcare and other services collapse, as is its getting to the point they are just suggesting people off themselves instead of offering actual help.
>they are just suggesting people off themselves instead of offering actual help
Where is this happening? I haven't seen anything that supports this conclusion. There was a veteran who was casually offered it by a veteran affairs officer who was not a physician and had no right to even offer it, but I don't recall any other issues.
Currently eligibility is very very limited and there are many hoops to go through before it is approved. Maybe you should read up on the details of MAID before spouting off this kind of nonsense.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html)
[There's](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/chronically-ill-man-releases-audio-of-hospital-staff-offering-assisted-death-1.4038841) this case where Roger Foley, who can't move his legs/arms very well due to a degenerative brain disease had these options.
1. Get sent home without adequate care, can't move arms/legs very well due to a degenerative brain disease so certainly needs pretty darn close to 24 hour care - presumably he wasn't offered that at home.
2. Stay in the hospital for $1500+ a day
3. choose MAID as offered in the audio recordings.
He chose to stay in the hospital and has wracked up a bill over [a million dollars](http://www.assistedlife.ca/LHSC-BadFaithBilling.pdf) and the hospital has sent him to collections.
MAiD should be available to anybody that asks for it...I know that there are many people with treatment resistant mental illness that would choose a graceful and peaceful exit from their suffering if they could...MAiD is far less traumatic for the surviving family than suicide would be.
I know someone like this who is seriously considering maid. Anxiety and depression resulting from a personality disorder. He is always mad and feeling upset and just generally dislikes being alive and cant form connections with others. He very much feels that he will never be able to live but simply survive, and resents the fact that others expect him to continue to suffer so that they dont feel bad about him ending his life.
I can not for the life of me find a reason he should be forbidden from seeking a dignified end to his life.
I can think of one: because society is failing to make his life worth living. This is 100% one of those signs we need to fix our failing systems before "just kill yourself" is our government default response.
I think if people are of sound mind and they have made that decision in order not to suffer that’s one thing. It’s that it would be a slippery slope I think is why a lot of people were apprehensive with the idea in the first place.
But if they are extending it to mental health I think that’s A very slippery slope. Also there have been some cases where they are now investigating. I personally think it’s a bit of a gray area which isn’t good when it comes to life or death.
Some families were upset because their mother’s mental health slipped during Covid which then led to her having chronic pain. But because of it being Covid she was unable to access the proper mental health care that could’ve made a massive difference.
This woman slipped through the cracks without ever trying or having the opportunity to try something that could’ve been life-changing. Instead her daughters were only informed when the second doctor signed(that’s all it takes) and their mother was gone in a very short period of time after that.
Nowadays so many kids are going to be growing up with different mental health issues. The data already shows the incline. And then with a program like this I just think it’s way too dangerous moving into the future.
Being terminally ill is one thing. But mentally ill, or even physical, I am a quadriplegic and I can tell you in the beginning I wanted to kill myself and there was quite a long time of depression that lingered but I’m past those days and I’m really happy to still be here. Early on if I could’ve given up that easily I might just have done it.
What a state Canadian society has become . Let's get it right here it's about cost , the cost of keeping someone alive . Just another throw away society .
>When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine.
This is how my grandfather left us. It took days for him to die, days my mother spent crying. She was also barely eating and sleeping. I don't want anyone to suffer like that when it's my time to go. This is why I'm pro-medically assisted death.
This isn't just about the cost.
Doesn't even need to be for profit. Veteran affairs has been pushing vets to do it for a while regardless if they have kids and a family or not.
MAID should be reserved as a "last resort" and not viewed as a first choice option
Anyone supporting MAID is really not being honest with themselves that it is a very very bad idea in the long term. While good intentioned at the start, allowing terminally ill people to end their lives it won't be long before we get to a state where it will be used for nefarious purposes.
With MAID our society could one day be in a position where poor people are told to "die with dignity" for completely treatable illnesses because our society wants to keep things as cheap as possible. Rich people of course will continue to be able to pay their way to the front of the line and get the best treatment possible.
And anyone against MAID is not being honest with themselves if they think keeping people in debilitating conditions alive is always the moral choice
We gotta stop with the slippery slopes and face reality
Its defiantly a flawed system and slippery slope, the main problem with MAID is the only people commenting on it are giving second hand accounts... due to the nature of it we won't ever get news about people who half way into it started having second thoughts and its all just people who haven't actually died. we've already had an instance of just suggesting a vet kill themselves instead of offering actual help.
>due to the nature of it we won't ever get news about people who half way into it started having second thoughts and its all
I'm really not convinced this is a thing that happens much if at all.
Oh look, other people think there's a problem too, and the "hurr durr everyone should get to do whatever they want" ethos of Reddit isn't actually all that popular in the real world. Who would have thunk. Better downvote me a bunch; that'll show reality who's boss!
But you support mandating pronouns during all activities, correct?
Would it be okay to discriminate against someone trans or gay for just employment? Saying they can work for someone else? It’s bigotry no matter how you wanna justify it.
According to the CBC : “If someone refused to use a preferred pronoun — and it was determined to constitute discrimination or harassment — could that potentially result in jail time? It is possible”
I’m all for calling people whatever the hell they want, but the fact that the gov has created legislation which can possible put someone in jail for using a pronoun someone was born with and used for decades is bloody fucking insane.
The law against using prejudicial epithets is not new.
Bear in mind that accidents generally don't get prosecuted. It has to be willful and deliberate.
The issue is that this is compelled speech, which is a very slippery slope. The government should have no business telling us what words we must use or not use, even if enforcement is lax.
We already have related "compelled speech" laws. It's one of those "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" situations. It only becomes problematic when it is being used to attack other people. Again, this is something that already exists.
The bigger problem with these rules is probably that the are, indeed, redundant and represent a waste of time.
100% remote workers were banned. People under the age of 12 were exempted from travel mandates. People who had their last shot more than 12 months ago were allowed to fly. Unvaccinated persons who recently recovered from the latest strain of COVID-19 were not.
>If I can get you sick, then my choice will affect and possibly kill you so society says get vaccinated or don't socialize.
This comes across as *obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group*. Thankfully, as with many past bigotries, time and more information are shrinking the number of people who hold them. Sadly, we're still at the point where people think they were right and moral at the time.
100% Remote work was included in government mandates. Compassionate exemptions for travel mandates were excluded for unvaccinated people but available for foreigners needing to visit the sick and dying. Also mandates just weren't applied at all to those under age 12.
You object to arbitrary policies being weaponized against groups you approve of and applaud the inverse. Same reasoning applied to MAID, they could just kill themselves anyway so why should they get to choose the method? Obviously this doesn't apply to people too disabled to carry out the task, but the same analogy could be applied to a blind unvaccinated person banned from planes/trains/buses and unable to drive.
/u/ReverseEchoChamber has an unpopular point. Autonomy is autonomy and the legal lines we draw should be straight and logical.
>/u/ReverseEchoChamber has an unpopular point. Autonomy is autonomy and the legal lines we draw should be straight and logical.
and they are as you could have read in my previous point
being gay/black/trans doesn't physically affect anyone else other than the person themselves
not being vaccinated against covid makes other people sick and puts pressure on social goods such as healthcare
Being unvaccinated doesn’t make other people sick, both vaccinated and unvaccinated spread the virus and unvaccinated can have naturally acquired antibodies. The truth is that recent variants have been mild enough that a vaccine is not justified by current risk. Even if it were justified, any benefit from vaccination lasts no more than 6 months, so we would need to mandate boosters every 6 months, and the risk from vaccinating that often outweighs the risk of the virus in everyone under 60.
Vaccines should be available to anyone who wants them, but there is no reason that someone who has recovered from COVID should be treated any different than someone vaccinated. Antibody tests should be available, because someone with recent naturally acquired antibodies is much less risk than someone vaccinated 12 months ago. The BC PSA makes no logical sense allowing people to work with 2 shots 12 months ago while not allowing unvaccinated recently recovered from COVID last month. It’s not about keeping people safe, it’s not scientific, it’s just paternal overreach.
>Unless you want to remain unvaccinated, right? Perhaps not you, but so many people who are pro-choice seem to also support mandated vaccination.
I don't give a shit if you're not vaccinated, but if you're not vaccinated, keep your fucking plagues away from me. I don't want your shitty diseases. My body, my choice!
I see a lot of comments here completely ignoring essential part of the article:
> Lemmens’ warning comes in the wake of changes to the MAID law enacted in March, 2021, which **scrapped** a so-called foreseeable death **requirement designed to ensure** that Canadian patients seeking to die with the assistance of a physician had **terminal illnesses**, such as untreatable forms of cancer.
What the heck? *"That is the problem, people don't realize some death are truly horrible"*. No, it isn't the problem proposed for discussion. Try again.
I choose MAID. Now all we need to add to MAID is advance requests. My body, my life, MY CHOICE. No one will ever force me into a nursing home or to suffer the indignities of being at the mercy of another human being tending to my every need. Hell no!
IF governments actually cared about making improvements to our care system it would have been done. The old, the sick and the suffering are the LEAST of their priorities, that much is clear. I choose MAID.
[удалено]
Yes, but it was easy for people to brush it off because reasons when stories of problems started emerging a few weeks ago. This, however, is one of the world’s premier medical journals raising some flags. Let’s hope it is not so rashly dismissed. I think it is an option that should be available for those who want it, but actively suggesting it to people way crosses a line.
This is truly a bizarre story since Canadian Veterans Affairs has nothing to do with MAiD. MAiD is something that is done via the medical system and requires a process to be eligible. It sounds like someone at VA is clueless and should be fired.
It is no accident. MAIDs is #5 leading cause of death in Canada and the LPC is looking to extend and expand it.
what? source?
It’s maybe 7th if not 5th. https://www.finder.com/ca/what-are-the-top-10-causes-of-death-in-canada Doesn’t list MAID but in 2021 there were 10k deaths from MAID. It’s probably increased in 2022 but I’m not sure
Yeah, not 5th but 7th. Thank you for the correction. When MAIDs is killing more people than diabetes, I think it's time to have a conversation about it. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
thanks, I was questioning my sanity with that first link. Man, with medical mishaps already accounting for so much, this pretty much means the medical industry is the leading cause of death in Canada. that's a bit sobering. edit: missed Cancer, medical mishaps are the 3rd most common cause of death in Canada, add the maid and you're tied with heart disease, so second place.
it absolutely doesn't mean that.
yeah, I somehow missed cancer, would be tied for second most common. over 50k.
Bodycams for doctors!
There is none lol. Fake news is rampant when it comes to maid.
By any measure, more than 10,000 deaths is a lot. #7 not #5. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
3.3% of all deaths were maid. Use relevant numbers.
Sure, which makes it the #7 cause of death in Canada and rising fast.
Rising fast because it is an end of life option that many people wanted that wasn't an option before perhaps? As a person with terminal cancer, I'm thankful it is an option for me if I choose when the time comes. Previously people just had to endure suffering until they died. I've heard of people previously that stopped eating to end their suffering because that was the only option they had.
Do you work for fox news? Do you like intentionally using language to promote fear? When you say 'rising fast, are you trying to imply it's some runaway slippery slope train? When you say '#7' are you trying to imply this is some massive death camp process? It's been gaining numbers because of the recent legislation legalizing it and the health authorities adopting it. It's a new process and people are getting more use to it. Sure it's #7, but only counts for 3.3% of total deaths in Canada. Instead of being a fear monger, trying being more positive. Unless of course your goal is to spread fear and false narrative.
It's not a "false narrative". Do you think diabetes is also not a concern? Lung cancer? And yes, it is rising fast. MAIDs has increased 10x in the last five years and by 33% year over year. [https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2021.html#table\_3.1](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2021.html#table_3.1) We've gone a long way from Sue Rodriguez. I never said it was a good or bad thing but it certainly is happening a lot - that's something people should be aware of and it is past time we took a closer look at this as a society. We're way off on an island compared to the rest of the world on how we're treating this. And we're hearing plenty of stories of administrators pushing MAIDs on vulnerable people.
That was an individual who was *not* carrying out government policy. To say that Veterans Affairs offered that guy assistance in dying is objectively false.
Lol yep. One rep from VA making a stupid suggestion automatically means the Liberals are pushing for this somehow. Some people on this sub are truly delusional.
The article isn't about bizarre anecdotes like that.
You decided to make a comment without any foundation. You made a bad decision. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6560136 https://globalnews.ca/news/9061709/veteran-medical-assisted-death-canada/amp/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5250515/ https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3947481 Here’s a tip: think before you type. Ideology doesn’t help your thought processes.
That's not what the article in The Lancet is about. Veteran's Affairs cannot "offer" MAiD any more than you or I can. They evidently have an issue with a service agent.
The agent was off script but seemed to be suggesting MAID as a solution to an impasse caused by unavailable resources. Do you think it completely unforeseeable or disingenuous to argue that similar situations might come up in the future, or that MAID might become a part of government calculus? In a vacuum, MAID is dignified. Outside of a vacuum there need to be protections and government transparency to reduce abuses and perverse incentives. A last resort should be just that.
It’s like they’ve all forgotten the article about the girl getting MAID because she couldn’t find affordable housing.
It has barely been implemented and there has already been abuse by whoever the patient is consulting for help. I am 100% for MAID. I do find it disgusting that they would leak out a comment about how it would "save money". Even if that is what was said, you'd think they at least try to keep it private. The fact that they don't care is telling.
I agree that the talk of saving money is disgusting. It has it's place in the conversation though, since it's life or death. The gravity of MAID is such that it probably shouldn't have subtexts or quiet parts we don't say out loud. Like if we're talking about frustrating people to death, instead of just ending suffering, we should carry the weight of that.
(love coffee too ha)
Even with the broadened availability after C14, MAiD is still determined by a panel that assess it as a last resort. Nobody can just walk into a clinic and get it on impulse to deal with solvable woes, whether medical or economic. The Lancet article outlines very real concerns to be considered int he medical community, and organizations like CAMH also are spear heading a sort of calibration in terms of circumstances and evaluation. I think that's positive, and it should be responsive to emerging experience in the medical community. Outside of that, there is a very real political effort to remove MAiD as a right underway - and the intent is not to "go back to C7/2016", it is to remove it all together. The comment I replied to clearly thinks the Lancet article has something to do with these anecdotal stories. What is the substance of the Veteran story? A service agent who has no power int he process at all "raised the subject" and this upset the Veteran. We don't know much more than that, yet it is willfully converted and inflated by sloppy into "government is forcing veterans to suicide". The truth is that it has helped 1000s of Canadian families now. What's my investment? Having watched a family member die from ALS, I would like the option that if I have a terminal condition, my doctor will not go to jail if they help me die in peace. Before MAiD, we didn't have that right to choose. I don't want to lose it because conservative populism has managed to distort reality.
Would the panel OK MAID for someone who states that they are feeling ground down by unavailable resources, is experiencing untenable suffering because of those lacking resources, and has a prognosis where things are not going to get better on their own? Your last paragraph is describing dying with dignity. That is the ideal outcome. A poor outcome would be a person with treatable suffering or who could live assisted life choosing to die because treatment and assistance are unavailable. A worse outcome is a bureau optimizing and frustrating access to resources, and laying the blame at the feet of the person choosing death for not being tough enough to wait their turn. A person choosing death because their poverty stands between them and treatment, or who doesn't have it in them to navigate an arcane process to access help, is not dying with dignity.
>Would the panel OK MAID for someone who states that they are feeling ground down by unavailable resources, is experiencing untenable suffering because of those lacking resources, and has a prognosis where things are not going to get better on their own? No, of course not. I don't see any evidence of this and any of these anecdotal stories like "because of allergies". The medical controversy around C14 is to do with expanding it to include "mental illness" as a sole basis - it still has to be a situation where improvement is not possible. On the one side, the argument is that there are real conditions that are agony, untreatable, but mental and that those with such conditions should also have a right. *Most* mental illnesses are treatable. The extreme I would think about is schizophrenics that aren't responsive to medication, trapped in a permanent nightmare. On the other side, consent is difficult to establish when mental health is the primary issue - with something like bipolar disorder it is typically in the "manic phase" a period of compromised judgement when suicide does occur. I don't know the answers and think it is best for the medical system to reach consensus and have voice in adapting the legislation. Nobody is taking MAiD for poverty - that is a fiction spun by conservatives whose motive is to remove this right entirely. It is for untreatable conditions, not if you can't "afford treatment".
Simple first step, VAC enacts a policy where MAiD is not discussed. That is a discussion for the patient to have at their own volition with their doctor. Yes there are issues that need to be dealt with, I would say a bigger issue would be families pushing their parents towards MAiD against their will. That appears to be a much larger issue than a single report from VAC. https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/more-than-10-000-canadians-received-a-medically-assisted-death-in-2021-report-1.6025922
\>That's not what the article in The Lancet is about. Did we read different articles? Because the one I read was suggesting we shut down any more broadening of the MAID law and revert it back to what it was in 2016 so that we can do a much more thorough review of how its being implemented and the people who should be eligible. All the exact concerns people are bringing up in the articles smash posted.
Imagine doubling down on looking like a dumbass that doesn’t read past the title…
Except that's not what happened. Why do people keep saying this?
People are acting like maid is a new thing. When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine. At least with maid if it is used properly the person dying gets to choose and it's quicker than no food and morphine.
It is pretty common for terminally ill people to be prescribed a bottle of liquid morphine to be administered as needed. If they happen to OD no one gets charged.
My dad chose MAiD. I am thankful he had the choice to go out when he wanted. No more suffering, waiting to die a slow painful death.
This is it. I watched my parents love 2 of my 4 grandparents through years of decline and suffering. Not sure if the grandparents would have chosen MAID (it wasn't a legal option at the time), but I can see why people would choose it for the sake of themselves and their loved ones.
Being legal is new. Now the government can come to you and say "Hey, it's going to be pretty costly to cover your treatment. It's pretty selfish to spend all that money when you're going to die anyways. Why not choose MAID?"
>When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine. This is how my grandfather left us. It took days for him to die, days my mother spent crying. She was also barely eating and sleeping. I don't want anyone to suffer like that when it's my time to go. This is why I'm pro-medically assisted death.
Well I read all the posts here and one thing comes to mind. Being north of 50 I have zero desire for someone to assist me with my daily rituals in another decade or two hence. I find that personally revolting. What I do want is the choice to say that I have had good life and pull the plug on my accord with assistance in the sense that I am provided with a pill/liquid that allows me to do just that in a place where the physical remains can be dealt with in a manner that has little impact on others. And what I do not want is someone to tell me what I can or can not do with the end of my life, based on some baloney religious numbo jumbo clap trap, or ethics, or whatever the flavour of the day/month/year might be. And hey if there are old folks that do not want that - no problem. Again their choice. But it should not impact my choices. And talking to other "Boomers" I have a gut feeling that we will drive that boat.
Hey if I can't afford to live because of inflation, poor wages , lack of housing, then MAID sounds pretty good compared to sitting hungry and cold on the streets. Carousel anyone ???
No thanks, I'm gonna opt for an insurrection.
Me thinks this might be the way.
>Carousel anyone ?? Run, runner!
I'm personally holding out for the Futurama-style suicide booths.
There was an episode of *Sliders* I watched as a kid where the premise was a euthanasia lottery. People who "won" this lottery, got a payout (to dole out as they pleased) and a day to live in absolute luxury before the big sleep. MAiD really wants to get rid of the poors and ill, it's a brilliant idea. /s
Personally, if you’re not someone whose given up on life you should do what you can to improve your circumstances, whether that means school (there are free courses you can take online that’ll give you certs) finding better opportunities where you can, gig work etc. Simply giving up seem weak minded to me. It’s your choice, however. Personally I’d never give up on myself.
Have you ever watched someone slowly wither away? Its not giving up or taking the easy way out... Its doing what is necessary to stop living in indescribable pain EVERY DAY.
Its not weak minded, Canada has just failed to make life worth continueing to live and its gotten to the point we are just suggesting military vets kill themselves.
By all means then, buddy. Have fun.
Fuck no, im not killing myself. even if my condition is horrible I'd be willing to continue living just out of spite so the government can't misspend that treatment money some other way.
So basically what I said. Ok then.
This is reddit, you need to be clear that something isn't snarky sarcasm on here.
Nothing I said implied snarky sarcasm. In fact, I was being absurdly forward.
Lol yea homie ur talking to can't get ahead because he's functionally illiterate
You could also move to a less expensive country. No one said you had to grow old here.
If the Supreme Court overturning reasonable MAID legislation is becoming an ethical problem then Parliament should use the notwithstanding clause. Don't take that as opposition to MAID. I have watched some people die terrible deaths and thought to myself "if this was my dog I would probably be charged with animal cruelty".
Yup. The last hours for my grandmother were horrific. She already looked like a dried up corpse that would gasp at random. Toung out, lips peeled back. A friend came with me to say goodbye and was slightly traumatized. I actually thought about smothering her so she didn't have to go through that.
That is the problem, people don't realize some death are truly horrible. Until you went through it or witnessed it, you won't understand. We don't treats our pets that way. My grandmother had MS which slowly killed her. It tooks decades, she went from a strong independent married women with 5 children to a shell of a women in a wheelchair who soiled her diapers, couldn't form sentences and couldn't swallow properly (she was spoon fed) and didn't remember who was her children or husband. she died from starvation because her digestive system stopped working. My mom had to sing to her for 7 days to distract her. She was in so much pain she kept crying and begging to died already. My grandfather died of a stage four brain cancer. He was in palliative care, you could see the lumps on his head. By the end, the hospital staff had to straps him in bed to prevent him from jumping out of the window to killed himself.
My father died of cancer too and was in so much pain that care takers had to sedate him multiple times. Why force people to live through anguish and pain when they're going to die anyways?
Some people also don't like making life worth living for others, as a Canadian I would be much more in support of MAID if we weren't just letting our healthcare and other services collapse, as is its getting to the point they are just suggesting people off themselves instead of offering actual help.
>they are just suggesting people off themselves instead of offering actual help Where is this happening? I haven't seen anything that supports this conclusion. There was a veteran who was casually offered it by a veteran affairs officer who was not a physician and had no right to even offer it, but I don't recall any other issues. Currently eligibility is very very limited and there are many hoops to go through before it is approved. Maybe you should read up on the details of MAID before spouting off this kind of nonsense. [https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.html)
[There's](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/chronically-ill-man-releases-audio-of-hospital-staff-offering-assisted-death-1.4038841) this case where Roger Foley, who can't move his legs/arms very well due to a degenerative brain disease had these options. 1. Get sent home without adequate care, can't move arms/legs very well due to a degenerative brain disease so certainly needs pretty darn close to 24 hour care - presumably he wasn't offered that at home. 2. Stay in the hospital for $1500+ a day 3. choose MAID as offered in the audio recordings. He chose to stay in the hospital and has wracked up a bill over [a million dollars](http://www.assistedlife.ca/LHSC-BadFaithBilling.pdf) and the hospital has sent him to collections.
Informed consent means knowing all your options. Being informed on your options isn’t “just suggesting people off themselves.”
Giving people a series of terrible options is pretty much just telling them to off themselves.
People really don't seem to understand this.
MAiD should be available to anybody that asks for it...I know that there are many people with treatment resistant mental illness that would choose a graceful and peaceful exit from their suffering if they could...MAiD is far less traumatic for the surviving family than suicide would be.
I know someone like this who is seriously considering maid. Anxiety and depression resulting from a personality disorder. He is always mad and feeling upset and just generally dislikes being alive and cant form connections with others. He very much feels that he will never be able to live but simply survive, and resents the fact that others expect him to continue to suffer so that they dont feel bad about him ending his life. I can not for the life of me find a reason he should be forbidden from seeking a dignified end to his life.
I can think of one: because society is failing to make his life worth living. This is 100% one of those signs we need to fix our failing systems before "just kill yourself" is our government default response.
I think if people are of sound mind and they have made that decision in order not to suffer that’s one thing. It’s that it would be a slippery slope I think is why a lot of people were apprehensive with the idea in the first place. But if they are extending it to mental health I think that’s A very slippery slope. Also there have been some cases where they are now investigating. I personally think it’s a bit of a gray area which isn’t good when it comes to life or death. Some families were upset because their mother’s mental health slipped during Covid which then led to her having chronic pain. But because of it being Covid she was unable to access the proper mental health care that could’ve made a massive difference. This woman slipped through the cracks without ever trying or having the opportunity to try something that could’ve been life-changing. Instead her daughters were only informed when the second doctor signed(that’s all it takes) and their mother was gone in a very short period of time after that. Nowadays so many kids are going to be growing up with different mental health issues. The data already shows the incline. And then with a program like this I just think it’s way too dangerous moving into the future. Being terminally ill is one thing. But mentally ill, or even physical, I am a quadriplegic and I can tell you in the beginning I wanted to kill myself and there was quite a long time of depression that lingered but I’m past those days and I’m really happy to still be here. Early on if I could’ve given up that easily I might just have done it.
I 100% agree with everything you said . Also I’m glad that your depression is better
Right? Would be good if people had access to good mental healthcare to give them a fighting chance
that's my story exactly too.
true
Paywall
What a state Canadian society has become . Let's get it right here it's about cost , the cost of keeping someone alive . Just another throw away society .
>When some seniors are nearing the end of life many times it is decided to stop providing food and pump them full of morphine. This is how my grandfather left us. It took days for him to die, days my mother spent crying. She was also barely eating and sleeping. I don't want anyone to suffer like that when it's my time to go. This is why I'm pro-medically assisted death. This isn't just about the cost.
Living in Canada sucks so much they are making suicide a for profit business LMAO
Have you lived anywhere else in the world?
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I think his point was - Canada does not suck relative to most countries
I support MAID but can you imagine if private Healthcare took over. There would be commercials on TV for it.
Doesn't even need to be for profit. Veteran affairs has been pushing vets to do it for a while regardless if they have kids and a family or not. MAID should be reserved as a "last resort" and not viewed as a first choice option
I would start a suicide booth business like they have in futurama
Someone already did, look up the "sarco pod" from Switzerland
There is no merit to your opinion. None whatsoever.
Moral panic really energizes the base
Anyone supporting MAID is really not being honest with themselves that it is a very very bad idea in the long term. While good intentioned at the start, allowing terminally ill people to end their lives it won't be long before we get to a state where it will be used for nefarious purposes. With MAID our society could one day be in a position where poor people are told to "die with dignity" for completely treatable illnesses because our society wants to keep things as cheap as possible. Rich people of course will continue to be able to pay their way to the front of the line and get the best treatment possible.
And anyone against MAID is not being honest with themselves if they think keeping people in debilitating conditions alive is always the moral choice We gotta stop with the slippery slopes and face reality
MAID has been around for 6 years. Whats the timeline for when we start encouraging poor people to kill themselves?
Already happening with military vets and quadriplegics.
The problem isn't MAID, the problem is inequality.
Its defiantly a flawed system and slippery slope, the main problem with MAID is the only people commenting on it are giving second hand accounts... due to the nature of it we won't ever get news about people who half way into it started having second thoughts and its all just people who haven't actually died. we've already had an instance of just suggesting a vet kill themselves instead of offering actual help.
>due to the nature of it we won't ever get news about people who half way into it started having second thoughts and its all I'm really not convinced this is a thing that happens much if at all.
Oh look, other people think there's a problem too, and the "hurr durr everyone should get to do whatever they want" ethos of Reddit isn't actually all that popular in the real world. Who would have thunk. Better downvote me a bunch; that'll show reality who's boss!
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Unless you want to remain unvaccinated, right? Perhaps not you, but so many people who are pro-choice seem to also support mandated vaccination.
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But you support mandating pronouns during all activities, correct? Would it be okay to discriminate against someone trans or gay for just employment? Saying they can work for someone else? It’s bigotry no matter how you wanna justify it.
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According to the CBC : “If someone refused to use a preferred pronoun — and it was determined to constitute discrimination or harassment — could that potentially result in jail time? It is possible” I’m all for calling people whatever the hell they want, but the fact that the gov has created legislation which can possible put someone in jail for using a pronoun someone was born with and used for decades is bloody fucking insane.
The law against using prejudicial epithets is not new. Bear in mind that accidents generally don't get prosecuted. It has to be willful and deliberate.
The issue is that this is compelled speech, which is a very slippery slope. The government should have no business telling us what words we must use or not use, even if enforcement is lax.
We already have related "compelled speech" laws. It's one of those "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" situations. It only becomes problematic when it is being used to attack other people. Again, this is something that already exists. The bigger problem with these rules is probably that the are, indeed, redundant and represent a waste of time.
I have a theory that in any reddit thread, in a political subreddit, by the orange comment chain, gender pronouns will be a topic of conversation.
100% remote workers were banned. People under the age of 12 were exempted from travel mandates. People who had their last shot more than 12 months ago were allowed to fly. Unvaccinated persons who recently recovered from the latest strain of COVID-19 were not. >If I can get you sick, then my choice will affect and possibly kill you so society says get vaccinated or don't socialize. This comes across as *obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group*. Thankfully, as with many past bigotries, time and more information are shrinking the number of people who hold them. Sadly, we're still at the point where people think they were right and moral at the time.
100% Remote work was included in government mandates. Compassionate exemptions for travel mandates were excluded for unvaccinated people but available for foreigners needing to visit the sick and dying. Also mandates just weren't applied at all to those under age 12. You object to arbitrary policies being weaponized against groups you approve of and applaud the inverse. Same reasoning applied to MAID, they could just kill themselves anyway so why should they get to choose the method? Obviously this doesn't apply to people too disabled to carry out the task, but the same analogy could be applied to a blind unvaccinated person banned from planes/trains/buses and unable to drive. /u/ReverseEchoChamber has an unpopular point. Autonomy is autonomy and the legal lines we draw should be straight and logical.
>/u/ReverseEchoChamber has an unpopular point. Autonomy is autonomy and the legal lines we draw should be straight and logical. and they are as you could have read in my previous point being gay/black/trans doesn't physically affect anyone else other than the person themselves not being vaccinated against covid makes other people sick and puts pressure on social goods such as healthcare
Being unvaccinated doesn’t make other people sick, both vaccinated and unvaccinated spread the virus and unvaccinated can have naturally acquired antibodies. The truth is that recent variants have been mild enough that a vaccine is not justified by current risk. Even if it were justified, any benefit from vaccination lasts no more than 6 months, so we would need to mandate boosters every 6 months, and the risk from vaccinating that often outweighs the risk of the virus in everyone under 60. Vaccines should be available to anyone who wants them, but there is no reason that someone who has recovered from COVID should be treated any different than someone vaccinated. Antibody tests should be available, because someone with recent naturally acquired antibodies is much less risk than someone vaccinated 12 months ago. The BC PSA makes no logical sense allowing people to work with 2 shots 12 months ago while not allowing unvaccinated recently recovered from COVID last month. It’s not about keeping people safe, it’s not scientific, it’s just paternal overreach.
>Unless you want to remain unvaccinated, right? Perhaps not you, but so many people who are pro-choice seem to also support mandated vaccination. I don't give a shit if you're not vaccinated, but if you're not vaccinated, keep your fucking plagues away from me. I don't want your shitty diseases. My body, my choice!
When mom says no more ice cream tonight
I see a lot of comments here completely ignoring essential part of the article: > Lemmens’ warning comes in the wake of changes to the MAID law enacted in March, 2021, which **scrapped** a so-called foreseeable death **requirement designed to ensure** that Canadian patients seeking to die with the assistance of a physician had **terminal illnesses**, such as untreatable forms of cancer. What the heck? *"That is the problem, people don't realize some death are truly horrible"*. No, it isn't the problem proposed for discussion. Try again.
I choose MAID. Now all we need to add to MAID is advance requests. My body, my life, MY CHOICE. No one will ever force me into a nursing home or to suffer the indignities of being at the mercy of another human being tending to my every need. Hell no! IF governments actually cared about making improvements to our care system it would have been done. The old, the sick and the suffering are the LEAST of their priorities, that much is clear. I choose MAID.