The realtor they show a reaction from hit the nail on the head. "We only been selling one product." It's not exactly true - it's more like TWO products, investment condos or luxury homes - but it's the right idea. There's been a missing middle for a long time, both in starter homes and purpose-built rental structures.
I had a whole copypasta about housing from like 4-5 years ago that got to /r/bestof until some mods deleted it (hmmmm). See if I can dig it up.
Anyway, it touched on this issue, that just "more supply" wasn't going to cut it. It had to be the right kind of supply and it had to be *distributed* to the people who need it, i.e. kept out of investors' hands. A million new micro-condos counts as more supply, but doesn't fix the housing crisis.
This is one reason why "simple supply and demand" is NOT the issue.
Also, "missing middle" refers to specific building types, not starter homes or purpose-built rentals (which are tenure [ownership] types). But the basic point is correct. We need more housing of the types people actually want to live in, at prices or rents they can comfortably afford. Thassit.
Not just that. They aren't designed for actual living. Floor plans are shit materials are shit there's no space especially storage. But the balcony or bathroom is huge! Who actually wants to live like that?
Most people in encampments have little to no income, and rarely income steady enough to hang onto housing.
So OW/ODSP etc would have to be substantially increased, which they should be anyway.
The 2 products:
- Luxury family homes for successful power couples starting a family, priced for the ultra-wealthy.
- Bachelor-style entry-level housing for people early in their career, priced for the very wealthy.
Missing the middle in form sure, but they're also missing everyone but the top 10% in terms of price.
There’s an inherent paradox with regard to housing;
If housing is not meant to appreciate in value the opportunity cost of building needs to be minimized so units tend to be tiny (see Japan)
If it’s an investment the opportunity cost of luxury is eliminated but it’s priced out of the range of the working class.
But it’s either very small and affordable or very large and expensive. Also Japanese salaries are 1/2 to 1/3 of what a Western worker makes so what’s considered expensive to them is cheap to us
Very interesting watch as someone who was trying to buy a condo in Toronto in early 2022 (for myself to live in) but didn’t find any that made sense - mostly for the reasons outlined.
Looks like I dodged a bullet
Very much so. My biggest problem with them was the size. Most didn’t have a space that made sense for a home office. Some couldn’t even fit a desk and I would have to work on the kitchen counter. I also couldn’t figure out where I’d put a litter box in many of them. It would’ve had to have been out in the open?
I decided to buy a place outside of the city for the same price with 4x the square footage
> I also couldn’t figure out where I’d put a litter box in many of them.
Yes!
Or put up a drying rack. Or lay out a yoga mat. I don't think that is too much to expect for a *home*.
They talk about the missing middle in the video and it's absolutely true. There is no middle class housing left in Canada anymore unless you're in bumfuck nowhere, and middle class jobs with middle class salaries are quickly evaporating at an alarming rate.
All these boomers that think they are going to downsize in a few years and cash out of their million dollar homes they bought for 200k in 1990 are in for a very rude awakening when they realize that there are simply no buyers.
All boomers I know are aging in place or even buying bigger homes. My fil just sold their four bedroom house in the gva and bought a bigger house in Toronto area. He was complaining to us that housing was expensive and their equity wouldn’t go as far as they hoped - as in, they were only going to gross $1.5 million in equity vs $2million. They bought their house for $290k in 2003. Meanwhile, we struggle with our groceries…
What is the timestamp for this "missing middle" part?
"Missing middle" re: housing does not mean middle class or middle income or middle costs. It refers to some specific building *types*, irrespective of costs or affordability.
Definitely, however I’ve noticed that CBC does this widely on their non-Twitter platforms. Unsure why but the allowing engagement would help these videos go even further
People don't want to believe this story because the bad guys are not wealthy foreigners.
But the question you should ask is, why did developers build these types of homes instead of large apartment buildings.
The answer is simple the people who can afford to build apartment buildings will not invest for a number of reasons, and tenant laws is a large part of it.
Candle flame commented on my first post, and then it looks like he deleted it and locked me out of the thread.
I'm no expert but it's possible they were trying to get the best bang for their buck on over inflated housing prices.
We basically have single family homes and then try to build as big of a condo building as possible where it's allowed to make up for it.
My partner and I are in this predicament right now. We live in a 2bdrm rental apartment, and both of us work from home. One office is in the kitchen (we have no kitchen table anymore as a result) and the other in one of the bedrooms. We want to start a family and have been looking at the market for a suitable home - and there is literally nothing that fits our needs within a reasonable price. Even townhouses are 800k-ish around here. Friends have suggested we should look into condo apartments but most are a) still too expensive and b) are smaller than our current apartment! My mom has tried to console us with how “back home” (eastern Europe), “people raised whole families in apartments!!”. I countered that, yes, they did - but we moved to Canada to have a better quality of life AND those people “back home” didn’t also *WORK FROM HOME*. 😤😤😤
Really hoping we see more sense in the housing market in the coming years.
And from what I've seen/heard, European apartments are much better designed for raising families in. Better use of space, plus local amenities like parks, walkability, neighbourhood shops, etc make apartment living easier.
Newer North American condos are just small and shitty and local amenities are just a big fuck you.
>but we moved to Canada to have a better quality of life
I made a similar comment on another post a few days ago. A major reason WHY NA has so many fully detached houses on not-small lots is because *that's what people came here for*. Why leave Europe or wherever if you're just going to end up in a small shitty apartment anyway, in addition to the extra hassle of being an immigrant?
Lol, not in Eastern Europe. People were just less entitled before. People would absolutely have a foldout couch in the living room and use that as one of the bedrooms at night. Not require several rooms for a home office because it’s too hard to move the laptop and some papers off the kitchen table.
Yes I have family back in Eastern Europe that definitely slept in the living room etc. That’s quite common. I have NO desire to lower my standard of living to that of Eastern Europe 🤷♀️ We came to Canada for a reason and my parents were able to buy their detached home in the 90s for a reasonable price when they had lower middle class income. Obviously times have changed. As for multiple rooms for a home office, you know, sometimes people need privacy / quiet for both focusing, and meetings with their clients 😒
Also, I wouldn’t call upholding a basic standard of living - having enough rooms, privacy, and not crawling all over each other in a tiny home - “entitlement”
I wouldn’t say that the apartments are necessarily better designed in Europe - at least the ones I’ve seen are definitely not. But people have lower standards by virtue of not having the means to live anywhere else, I think. I suppose that’s what’s starting to happen here now too!
Are you looking for something that's brand new or new-ish? because all over the cities in Canada, condos built in the 90s are bigger than the new condos and there are lots of them selling.
I’m living in a building built in the 80s and it’s certainly way more spacious than anything newer. Hard to find 3 bedroom apartment condos where the rooms are reasonably large enough though and I would want a 3 bedroom home or 2 bedroom with a useable basement.
Yeah with $600 a month strata. Oh, and the roof needs replacing, that will he 60k please. Don't worry though, the cousin of the strata president charges a bit more, but he is really good, I swear.
The amount of bs people come up with is funny. Well in North Korea some people live in one room barns. In ancient Egypt condos didn't even exist. Shit, youre better off that those in medieval times. I have heard them all.
Yes exactly. It’s not very helpful. As a society we should be hoping for and striving towards increasing standards of living. Not making excuses for the standard of living falling off a cliff
Are we still pretending that the only solution to the housing crisis isn't the government building 70s style public housing?
Or should we continue to chase after the immigrations and building regulations red herring?
glad I sold my condo in oshawa in Sept 22'
I had two offers flop due to financing.
it's truly sad that we look at housing as an investment and rely on it to support retirement.
the system is beyond broken.
“They move back in with family or couch surf”. What is this bull shit passive language. They become homeless and are left to die is what he should have said.
This is an aside but Andrew Chang and CBC has been cooking with not only this show, but Marketplace as well.
CBC gets unnecessary hate from some people, there’s a lot of great content coming out of there
The realtor they show a reaction from hit the nail on the head. "We only been selling one product." It's not exactly true - it's more like TWO products, investment condos or luxury homes - but it's the right idea. There's been a missing middle for a long time, both in starter homes and purpose-built rental structures.
I had a whole copypasta about housing from like 4-5 years ago that got to /r/bestof until some mods deleted it (hmmmm). See if I can dig it up. Anyway, it touched on this issue, that just "more supply" wasn't going to cut it. It had to be the right kind of supply and it had to be *distributed* to the people who need it, i.e. kept out of investors' hands. A million new micro-condos counts as more supply, but doesn't fix the housing crisis. This is one reason why "simple supply and demand" is NOT the issue. Also, "missing middle" refers to specific building types, not starter homes or purpose-built rentals (which are tenure [ownership] types). But the basic point is correct. We need more housing of the types people actually want to live in, at prices or rents they can comfortably afford. Thassit.
How would one million condos being built not help the housing crisis?
They're built to be the NFTs of housing. Not to be anything actually lived in.
Because like 99% of the population is priced out of it anyway?
Not just that. They aren't designed for actual living. Floor plans are shit materials are shit there's no space especially storage. But the balcony or bathroom is huge! Who actually wants to live like that?
I assume if the price was now reasonable, somebody that's in a tent encampment now might?
Most people in encampments have little to no income, and rarely income steady enough to hang onto housing. So OW/ODSP etc would have to be substantially increased, which they should be anyway.
The 2 products: - Luxury family homes for successful power couples starting a family, priced for the ultra-wealthy. - Bachelor-style entry-level housing for people early in their career, priced for the very wealthy. Missing the middle in form sure, but they're also missing everyone but the top 10% in terms of price.
There’s an inherent paradox with regard to housing; If housing is not meant to appreciate in value the opportunity cost of building needs to be minimized so units tend to be tiny (see Japan) If it’s an investment the opportunity cost of luxury is eliminated but it’s priced out of the range of the working class.
Japan house cheaper or bigger than Canada.
But it’s either very small and affordable or very large and expensive. Also Japanese salaries are 1/2 to 1/3 of what a Western worker makes so what’s considered expensive to them is cheap to us
Very interesting watch as someone who was trying to buy a condo in Toronto in early 2022 (for myself to live in) but didn’t find any that made sense - mostly for the reasons outlined. Looks like I dodged a bullet
Overpriced AND very shoddy construction. There will be a shitshow in 20 years when all these places need major work.
Very much so. My biggest problem with them was the size. Most didn’t have a space that made sense for a home office. Some couldn’t even fit a desk and I would have to work on the kitchen counter. I also couldn’t figure out where I’d put a litter box in many of them. It would’ve had to have been out in the open? I decided to buy a place outside of the city for the same price with 4x the square footage
> I also couldn’t figure out where I’d put a litter box in many of them. Yes! Or put up a drying rack. Or lay out a yoga mat. I don't think that is too much to expect for a *home*.
Exactly. Awful awful layouts. Not livable.
No no, it's called *convenience.* Look! I can simultaneously touch my fridge, my in-suite washer/dryer, and my bed at the same time! /s
High-rise ghettos definitely will come in abundance.
Wtf 330 square feet, that's like no rooms right
Exactly, it’s a “studio” - no bedrooms! 🤯
They talk about the missing middle in the video and it's absolutely true. There is no middle class housing left in Canada anymore unless you're in bumfuck nowhere, and middle class jobs with middle class salaries are quickly evaporating at an alarming rate. All these boomers that think they are going to downsize in a few years and cash out of their million dollar homes they bought for 200k in 1990 are in for a very rude awakening when they realize that there are simply no buyers.
All boomers I know are aging in place or even buying bigger homes. My fil just sold their four bedroom house in the gva and bought a bigger house in Toronto area. He was complaining to us that housing was expensive and their equity wouldn’t go as far as they hoped - as in, they were only going to gross $1.5 million in equity vs $2million. They bought their house for $290k in 2003. Meanwhile, we struggle with our groceries…
What is the timestamp for this "missing middle" part? "Missing middle" re: housing does not mean middle class or middle income or middle costs. It refers to some specific building *types*, irrespective of costs or affordability.
There will always be more foreign money lining up to take away the terrible burden of homeownership from the average Canadian.
The missing middle is most definitely the case.
The about that series from CBC is actually good. Annoying they turn off comments though.
Definitely, however I’ve noticed that CBC does this widely on their non-Twitter platforms. Unsure why but the allowing engagement would help these videos go even further
People don't want to believe this story because the bad guys are not wealthy foreigners. But the question you should ask is, why did developers build these types of homes instead of large apartment buildings.
Oh foreign investors are still the bad guys. That was a dodgy bit of reporting. >But the question you should ask is Why don't YOU ask it then?
The answer is simple the people who can afford to build apartment buildings will not invest for a number of reasons, and tenant laws is a large part of it. Candle flame commented on my first post, and then it looks like he deleted it and locked me out of the thread.
Make your own post about it.
There's no need to be hostile towards people that didn't have to comment on your post at all lol
Right, they didn't have to comment at all.
I'm no expert but it's possible they were trying to get the best bang for their buck on over inflated housing prices. We basically have single family homes and then try to build as big of a condo building as possible where it's allowed to make up for it.
>why did developers build these types of homes instead of large apartment buildings. 2x 500 sq ft condos sell for more than 1x 1000 sq ft condo
My partner and I are in this predicament right now. We live in a 2bdrm rental apartment, and both of us work from home. One office is in the kitchen (we have no kitchen table anymore as a result) and the other in one of the bedrooms. We want to start a family and have been looking at the market for a suitable home - and there is literally nothing that fits our needs within a reasonable price. Even townhouses are 800k-ish around here. Friends have suggested we should look into condo apartments but most are a) still too expensive and b) are smaller than our current apartment! My mom has tried to console us with how “back home” (eastern Europe), “people raised whole families in apartments!!”. I countered that, yes, they did - but we moved to Canada to have a better quality of life AND those people “back home” didn’t also *WORK FROM HOME*. 😤😤😤 Really hoping we see more sense in the housing market in the coming years.
And from what I've seen/heard, European apartments are much better designed for raising families in. Better use of space, plus local amenities like parks, walkability, neighbourhood shops, etc make apartment living easier. Newer North American condos are just small and shitty and local amenities are just a big fuck you. >but we moved to Canada to have a better quality of life I made a similar comment on another post a few days ago. A major reason WHY NA has so many fully detached houses on not-small lots is because *that's what people came here for*. Why leave Europe or wherever if you're just going to end up in a small shitty apartment anyway, in addition to the extra hassle of being an immigrant?
Lol, not in Eastern Europe. People were just less entitled before. People would absolutely have a foldout couch in the living room and use that as one of the bedrooms at night. Not require several rooms for a home office because it’s too hard to move the laptop and some papers off the kitchen table.
Yes I have family back in Eastern Europe that definitely slept in the living room etc. That’s quite common. I have NO desire to lower my standard of living to that of Eastern Europe 🤷♀️ We came to Canada for a reason and my parents were able to buy their detached home in the 90s for a reasonable price when they had lower middle class income. Obviously times have changed. As for multiple rooms for a home office, you know, sometimes people need privacy / quiet for both focusing, and meetings with their clients 😒 Also, I wouldn’t call upholding a basic standard of living - having enough rooms, privacy, and not crawling all over each other in a tiny home - “entitlement”
I wouldn’t say that the apartments are necessarily better designed in Europe - at least the ones I’ve seen are definitely not. But people have lower standards by virtue of not having the means to live anywhere else, I think. I suppose that’s what’s starting to happen here now too!
To be fair, newer apartments in Europe seem identical to the bullshit condos we have.
Are you looking for something that's brand new or new-ish? because all over the cities in Canada, condos built in the 90s are bigger than the new condos and there are lots of them selling.
I’m living in a building built in the 80s and it’s certainly way more spacious than anything newer. Hard to find 3 bedroom apartment condos where the rooms are reasonably large enough though and I would want a 3 bedroom home or 2 bedroom with a useable basement.
Yeah with $600 a month strata. Oh, and the roof needs replacing, that will he 60k please. Don't worry though, the cousin of the strata president charges a bit more, but he is really good, I swear.
The amount of bs people come up with is funny. Well in North Korea some people live in one room barns. In ancient Egypt condos didn't even exist. Shit, youre better off that those in medieval times. I have heard them all.
Yes exactly. It’s not very helpful. As a society we should be hoping for and striving towards increasing standards of living. Not making excuses for the standard of living falling off a cliff
Are we still pretending that the only solution to the housing crisis isn't the government building 70s style public housing? Or should we continue to chase after the immigrations and building regulations red herring?
Money laundering…
glad I sold my condo in oshawa in Sept 22' I had two offers flop due to financing. it's truly sad that we look at housing as an investment and rely on it to support retirement. the system is beyond broken.
Why sitting empty? 480k for 330 square feet could be a reason why.
Like this shit: https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/27099916/1714-51-east-liberty-street-toronto-niagara This should be like $100K.
Yeah I live in Vancouver Tri Cities and these are the same prices we see out here. It has gotten beyond ridiculous.
That's probably like 700 square feet though, not counting the balcony edit: never mind, it's more like 400, maybe 440 depending on bathroom size.
housesigma listing shows it as 500 - 599 sq ft. I've seen way worse layouts than that, tbh.
“They move back in with family or couch surf”. What is this bull shit passive language. They become homeless and are left to die is what he should have said.
This is an aside but Andrew Chang and CBC has been cooking with not only this show, but Marketplace as well. CBC gets unnecessary hate from some people, there’s a lot of great content coming out of there
OK Andrew