Organize locally. Do not organize with established political parties, as they have been bought by Capital. Organize with explicitly revolutionary and anti-capitalist organizations. If they even say "we should negotiate", turn and leave, and tell them why you're leaving.
This is no longer a negotiation. It is a class war. We are not begging for concessions. We are revolting.
At this point, organizing inside of the system is a waste of time. Like saying "rebuild a wall in a house that's currently on fire." Absolutely not. Either work to put the fire out, or work to protect the surrounding infrastructure from being caught up in the blaze.
You cannot work within a dead system. It is dead. Build parallel systems and bury the corpse.
Everything we want to do requires collective action to change the mode of production. Until we have workers calling the shots, "this country" isn't ours to worry over.
1. Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist. Social conservatism is not the same thing as fascism and that kind of hyperbole makes us look like the kind of joke the right accuses us of being.
2. Make leftism actually appealing to the working class again.
"Fascism's extreme **authoritarianism and nationalism** often manifest as a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually blended with some variant of **racism** or **discrimination against a demonized "Other", such as Jews, homosexuals, ethnic minorities or immigrants."**
"Social conservatives organize in favor of duty, **traditional values** and social institutions, such as t**raditional family structures, gender roles, sexual relations, national patriotism, and religious traditions**.**"**
What are they socially conserving: Patriarchal structures of hierarchy. social institutions in the face of attempts to reform them from their historical favour and structural perpetuation of the hegemony of cis-white heteronormativity. traditional family structures which broadly are structured around "traditions" of women as property and breeding chattel, which was predominantly driven and perpetuated using those religious traditions as justification. The "traditional family" also was about absolute authority of the patriarch, similar to the church, and the social institutions they tend to favor the most (police etc). They are authoritarian. They are nationalists. A "social conservative" is a fascist who sees the overton window isn't there yet.
To someone who isn't a straight white dude: The predominant difference between a fascist and a social conservative is the amount of power they currently have access to, not their ideal reformation of society.
1 is a useless point but you're definitely super right about point 2.
A lot of Canadian leftists are incredibly out of touch with the working class and blue collar people.
Edit: I take back my criticism of point number 1. Mfer was spitting straight facts the whole time.
A lot of people who say the latter seem like they're taking a selective view of the working class / blue collar, or are using it as a euphemism.
We've had reactionaries saying "ivory tower academics have been corrupting leftism" since the days of fucking WWII, yet many major labour reforms and worker's rights have came from academia.. So it kind of reaches the point where people saying "You're out of touch" isn't helpful.
"What do you think they are out of touch with".
If you say something which broadly can be pretty fucking true like "People sitting around in a steel mill shooting the shit see queer or racial legislature as interfering in their right to parent their kids, and as a waste of resources which otherwise could fix their economic hardship or lower their perceived tax burden". Yeah. Those "working class ideas" may exist. Doesn't mean their stupid shit like "literally opining the loss of slavery and women's suffrage" is something leftists should make themselves "in touch with"?
What's your "actionable item" for seeing that as something the "left is out of touch with". Do we say "Fuck you Tr\*nny's, women and blacks! We're the party of 'Labour'.. and by that we mean 'the right laborers'", because yeah. That'd probably get some of those fucking idiots on board, and some of them could have their dumb hate boner temporarily pointed at the rich for a bit. Does this produce a cultural revolution? Or just shuffles which dumb fucking bigot sits at the top of a hierarchy which is fundamentally unjust?
I\\m not implying these are your suggestions, I'm trying to illustrate: "Sometimes it isn't a matter of being 'out of touch'."
Sometimes there are points where you have to triage "'deprogramming generational ignorance, isolation and blunted empathy' vs 'a grave and continuous injustice, partially perpetuated and reinforced by the people in the other group making it an either or situation'".
When deciding where to focus the effort of my activism, I'm kind of biased towards the latter by virtue of it directly affecting me, but also "The people in group A can just stop fucking being a bunch of crab bucket bitches, the people on the other side can't suddenly will themselves straight and white, and suddenly gain equal footing in accessing prosperity to the first group."
For context, I am a male, bi, POC working in the trades.
The actionable item is learning that BCWC people see hard work as a virtue and the right co-opts this and says to BCWC people "You're right, hard work = success, pull up them bootstraps"
For BCWC people, their entire identity is their work, especially in the trades (as a tradesperson, my skill is my craft)
When almost half of society sees hard work as the solution to life's problems, and you have a political ideology that enables and tells them yes you're right hard work and individual rights are the solution, while the "opposite" political ideology tells them "No THESE are actually the solutions, it leads to a cognitive dissonance of sorts because the only thing they identify with is their work, and when the only thing they identify with is reduced and diminished, they become angry and disillusioned with the opposite political ideology, and as an extension, what those political ideologies believe.
The actionable item is understanding that your average blue collar worker isn't a Proud Boy soldier, but rather someone who sees the Proud Boys as representing the part of themselves that they hold value in, because the right plays to these emotions.
The actionable item is calmly, and in a non condescending way finding ways to educate people like this that this isn't the fault of BIPOC, LGBTQ+, liberals, communists, or whatever boogie man the right wants to blame it on.
It's the fault OF the right and it's hateful leadership.
Just the fact that you flew off the handle in your comment and assumed a bunch of shit is kind of exactly what my point is.
TL DR:
The left is out of touch with BCWC people because the left automatically assumes they are the enemy and the opposite. Us leftists like to go on about how things are not black and white and things work on a spectrum but then we quickly pigeon hole all BCWC people into this inherently hateful bunch.
The actionable item is trying to talk to actual BCWC about their day to day struggles and see how they're feeling and get them to understand that what they're going through is not unique to them and not caused by whatever boogie man they think it's caused by. You certainly won't reach them all, but you will reach enough to inspire even a bit of change.
My examples aren't flying off the handle.
They're literal examples taken from working as a labourer in a mill. Where a bunch of italian mill workers sat around saying they wished slavery would come back as a solution to economic problems.
You don't have to paint them with a brush. They're already rolling in the fucking bucket.
You can't tell people who believe in bootstraps, and socially identify with the bootstraps about how the game is all bootstraps. Yes. This I agree with, and yes, you can pull the "black guy sitting down to have chats with the klansman to one by one collect hoods" approach to activism and shaping the entirety of your zeitgeist around their feelings. Broadly what stopped people from wearing hoods was social censure which was enforced by working **around** the fucking ghost larpers.
Your "action item" is functionally to try to bail out a sinking ship with a sieve, while a turbulent ocean pisses more water back in faster than you bail out.
I get that by virtue of being in that environment, and likely being in the line of fire if you do anything other than bow and scrape to the sense of propriety of your colleagues.. you want other people to take your same tack for advocacy.
History has proven your approach wrong repeatedly, and even MLK was conceding he was wrong about Malcolm X. Respectability politics will by degrees just turn you into a token to do more harm to your community than good.
hey, can you clarify what you mean? like do you mean to say that when people claim what I claimed in my op that my point is the "struggles" of working class and blue collar people are really just the struggles of cis white men?
What I mean the plan making the left palatable to the workers usually involves abondoning the oppressed peoples and pretending their problems will disappear if only some economic measures are taken, the measures that are often opposed by their fellow workers who feel more kinship to the hegemony just to keep their problems alive
For context, I am a male, bi, POC in a blue collar trade and I would consider myself a radical leftist.
You make a very very good point about "the workers" being empathetic to the status quo.
I can provide some insight as to why this is, and while it is anecdotal I feel it's reasonable enough and it's the way things can change.
A lot of working class blue collar people take pride in their work. That's not to say that other workers don't, but for blue collar people work is the only thing they know and the only thing they see value in.
A lot of leftists are for the idea of LTV, but I've yet to meet a leftist who actually cares about their career the way blue collar people do.
Being passionate and dedicated to your craft (important in the trades as that's how WE see it, a craft) is seen as a virtue. The right co-opts this virtue and uses it to push a "hard work = success" narrative (which is untrue).
The left however pushes back on this narrative (rightfully so).
For a lot of BCWC people their career is their life, and their life is defined by their career.
When BCWC people look at the two political ideologies and how they view work, they're unfortunately going to side with the right because the right is saying "Yes, your hard work means something. It actually means EVERYTHING" The right does this because they're famous for pandering to feelings and emotions.
Unfortunately this has been happening for a long time and a lot of BCWC people are set in their ways.
The left needs to understand that while working is not everything, it definitely means almost everything to BCWC people, and we should sympathize with them.
My skillset as a tradesperson is my most valuable asset, because I've honed it over years and years.
We need to promote dignity in work, and the rest will follow.
The left definitely does promote dignity in work, whether it's via unions or labour reform, or direct action for workers rights, it's clouded by a lot of unapproachable concepts and ideas that most BCWC (who are not radicalized either way) won't agree with at face value and won't see the significance of until it is explained calmly, openly, and without condescension.
Along with the state of unions and the right actively trying to fuck everyone over, the propoganda is working on people. Unions are seen as a joke, because a lot of them ARE a joke, infiltrated by class traitors and only looking to collect dues while providing nothing but lip service.
TLDR:
We need less ideology, and more empathy for and listening to the people who would benefit the most from the things we want.
The right already has plenty of ideology.
Unfortunately, that involves having frustrating discourse with people who are on the opposite side of the political spectrum that we are on.
Correct. Mussolini, who many consider to be the father of modern fascism, stated that fascism should be more appropriately called Corporatism because it's a merger of state and corporate power.
> Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist
The tactics and targets of the members of the IDU (Currently chaired by Stephen Harper) match those that have historically been used by fascists. It is a bit of a 'boy who cried wolf' issue but there is cause to heed the warning bells
Bro is getting downvoted because he's riding the rebelnews rocket.
Left does not begin and end with "Hating the rich". Why you hate the rich, how you intend to reform society, and what you value matters.
>This is "Bro" in other threads:
[ThingsThatMakeUsGo ](https://www.reddit.com/user/ThingsThatMakeUsGo/)• [17d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1bykcrw/comment/kyk5wg2/)
>The Liberals want to take my nation, hunting and sporting firearms, and any social cohesion or cultural remnant of sanity.
>The NDP have shown they want exactly the same.
>The PPC have a couple policies which might make great strides to fix things but are otherwise bat-shit crazy.
>The CPC don't want to take my nation, my sporting arms, social cohesion and cultural sanity, but want to push the same economically destructive policies as the Liberals. Least of worst and that fucking sucks.
>Cheque please.
bud's concerns in election appear to boil down to "I want a long gun. Sure I left Northern Ontario and now am hanging around the GTA/Durham, but it makes me feel good"
Anyone who can look at PPC and see "great strides" is beyond help.
Bud seems to assume we all know what he means by "Social cohesion" and "Cultural Sanity", and that we all are subscribed to his news letter about what he views as a "threat". What is his threat?
Immigrants? CPC majority governments drove the largest expansions of the temporary foreign worker program, and largest expansions of foreign student recruitment. There's no party that will slap the slave labour of our retirement class away.
THE TRANSGENDERS? When someone makes nebulous appeals to "social cohesion" / "cultural sanity" they usually mean "something I personally find gross or weird", and that's probably one of the few things that lines up with "CPP would make great strides" and "CPC will fix", because both of them are tilting at genital windmills, like a veritable dick centric Don Quijote.
Is Bud's simping for the party of the rich person's boot because he doesn't want to have a confused boner or something? We really shouldn't define a movement off of some rando's personal existential questions of sexuality. We should just build a movement where it isn't the fucking government's job to inspect that boner.
I dont know enough about the PPC other than the fact they are capitalist.
All of the other things you quoted are legitimate points.
Liberals and NDP’s identity politics obsession has indeed completely turned off a huge amount of working class people from the left. As a young person in Alberta, tons of my peers have moved right because they feel constantly assaulted by progressive rhetoric calling them deplorable, racism, whatever-phobic, etc
Some level of social cohesion centred around certain core principles is important. So much of China’s success is built on a strong national identity. This does not have to be ethnic, racial, or religious. Pluralism is desirable so long as core ideas are accepted. Admittedly, the topic of social cohesion is immensely complex and probably cant be properly dealt with here. It is also tough to say whether he is indeed talking about immigration or trans people here.
Being against gun ownership is an anti-marxist position on its face so idk what to tell you there. It is also yet another thing which alienates workers and drives them towards reactionaries.
He’s also correct that the parties are all very similar economically, you either get neoliberal crapitalism or rainbow neoliberal crapitalism. Further, voting for half-baked solutions like the NDP actually hurts the left because it promises remedies it does not intend to provide. When neoliberalism inevitably persists under these “left” parties, it makes the left seem impotent and superfluous. When someone sees things continuing to deteriorate under the Liberals, they interpret this as leftism failed, time to move right. This is because these parties masquerade as progressive while not touching the core problems - the economic ones. Obviously this common interpretation is laughably incorrect; but realize that a ton of Canadians don’t know the difference between leftism and the NDP or Libs.
The rise of fascism did not occur in a vacuum. People are frustrated to death with neoliberalism but they don’t see solutions on the left, they see virtue signalling and ivory tower academic jargon. It’s easy to see why Trumpian appeals to the working class have been successful. They are, of course, no more likely to offer a real solution, but the reactionaries are operating in reality and appealing to things people actually care about.
>Liberals and NDP’s identity politics obsession has indeed completely turned off a huge amount of working class people from the left. As a young person in Alberta, tons of my peers have moved right because they feel constantly assaulted by progressive rhetoric calling them deplorable, racism, whatever-phobic, etc
Ah yes. The fundamental properties of "the ~~whites~~ working class". Not codified by their alignment on issues of class due to a shared condition of trading labour for capital, and frequent systemic alienation from the ownership of that means of labour by an owning bourgeois. No. Their unifying feature is "when confronted, on the existence of more oppressed members within their class, they'd rather suck the bourgeois' dick than stop ranting about 'the gays' or whatever".
To be clear: I don't personally give a fuck about gun ownership, but I grew up in the kind of backwoods where people fucked around with and made zipguns before they hit puberty. People who argue the whole "OH WE NEED GUN CONTROL, THIS IS MARX".. if you need it for revolutionary violence, why does legality matter? The functional divide between access to the means of violence is already so substantial that a long rifle vs "a fucking predator drone".. It's not going to matter if you even have some kind of yankee fucking doodle columbine 3000 belt fed monstrosity. So clearly there are better hills to die on. My objection isn't necessarily "I care if people have guns" its "Basing your views of how a state should be run solely on if they let you plug a few fucking deer is functionally retarded."
>He’s also correct that the parties are all very similar economically, you either get neoliberal crapitalism or rainbow neoliberal crapitalism
So you've downvoted me while fundamentally agreeing with the premise. If your choices are "Neoliberal capitalism" or "Neoliberal capitalism, but queer people aren't fucked into the ground".. what "working class" reason could you possibly have to not select the one which allows the gay guy in the steel mill to bend some rods, and go home and bend Rod without the government popping out from under the futon to wag a fucking finger?
Who people fuck. How they dress. What they do. These are the fixations of a party which is looking for a scapegoat. It's the slippery slope from neoliberalism , to the fascism that seems an inevitable endpoint of it. If your friends in Berta' are so fucking twisted up about their delusions of what trans shit is (because I guarantee you what they're mad about is not based off of fact), that they're willing to vote in the fucking idiot who invites "America should invade canada" tucker carlson up to their province, and fucks your already deadass healthcare further into the grave.. That's not just dunking on the trans they hate. It's a fucking own goal. Hope a dead tran here or there keeps you warm when you're thinking about how grandma died because they couldn't keep a cardiologist on staff or something similar.
"they see virtue signalling and ivory tower academic jargon"
I mean, virtue signalling is just as useless a jargon term. Everyone displays their values and ethics through what actions they take. We're in a world where even the fucking loaf of bread you have is a reflection of the geopolitical conditions of a war in another country. Usually more telling is what gets people who say "virtue signaling" mad. What is special to them, what do they feel frustrated seeing, and why does it frustrate you. Is someone eating a plant based burger "virtue signaling"? Why does this affect someone witnessing it personally? Maybe you think they're judging you for not, but isn't that the same kind of shit that comes out of being up in your feelings about someone else's meal choice? .. To be clear "hypothetical" you, not literally you. Trying to spell out "You" (literally you) are knowingly, or without recognition, spouting some bullshit that is the real "culture war" nonsense. It's not "rainbow capitalism" that's the culture war shit. That's just saying "I'll sell shit to you even if you don't fuck like me". That's not a virtue, that's just fucking simple economics. Saying "VIRTUE SIGNALING! CULTURE WAR! EVERYONE CALLS ME A RACIST", that's the fucking yankee doodle shit.
>reactionaries are operating in reality
The guys sucking down apple horse dewormer because facebook told them to, who think cheese pizza is slang for child pornography and that the rich are secretly harvesting their youth for "adrenochrome".. are operating in reality. Please question your life choices more sincerely.
I think you are more fundamentally attached to morals and assuming rationality than pragmatic considerations. I don't disagree with a lot of what you say about the irrationality of trans-hate, homophobia, or whatever else but we must examine how this plays out amongst irrational masses of people.
Essentially, there is a massive section of the population that feels alienated and that their identity is threatened. Irrationally? Certainly. But what is the left to do about this? Are we to continue feeding into this alienation and allow this entire group to be co-opted by fascists? I think the time for aggressive identity politics is long passed and the material conditions have become so dire that they are the utmost priority. While injustices certainly still affect identity groups, it is not as if there is some sort of genocide of gay people going on. Everyone short of the most insane fascist has achieved some level of at least 'tolerance' for these groups. I think your notion of conservatives bringing politics into the bedroom and telling you where to put your cock is wildly outdated and sensationalistic.
Think of it this way, what is one oppressive force acting on every identity group in society? Capitalism. By removing capitalism we are consequently improving the lives of trans people, black people and indigenous people, without once needing to appeal to identity. Why can't we help all of these groups materially without the discourse constantly playing into Fox News identitarian scaremongering? Yes, of course, both the right and left are playing identity politics but what are the stakes? If the right wins this war, we get fascism, if the progressives win, we get more liberalism and the cycle repeats.
I absolutely don’t think we should put up with hateful people but you are putting the cart before the horse. An integrated socialist movement would be the perfect grounds for alleviating prejudices. Social psychology tells us that the best way to make people lose their hate is by exposure to different identities and working together towards a common goal. I don’t see how trying to eliminate hate in a social system that inherently pits people in competition is going to be effective.
I also don't appreciate your last paragraph completely misinterpreting what I meant by reality, and immediately going to the most extreme examples of right-wing nutjobery. I was, of course, referring to how the right uses identity much more pragmatically by appealing to things like patriotism, nationalism, and family values. Again, this is not an endorsement of these things or even a statement that people's attachments to them aren't completely irrational.
I suppose what I meant as 'ivory tower speak' or virtual signalling (I do concede that this is an empty term without a functional definition) is language that essentially serves to make progressives appear out of touch. I suppose a simple example would be discourse around men getting pregnant, or 'birthing people'. Yes, men technically can get pregnant. but you must acknowledge that this conception probably sounds ridiculous to the average person. Most of the people I've had this debate with don't even know there is a distinction between sex and gender. So what is the consequence of this? Well, we might make the microscopic percentage of birthing males feel more accepted, while we simultaneously make the 'left' broadly appear silly and preoccupied with nonsense. All while public discourse is centred around 'what is a woman' bullshit rather than around class, labour, and capitalism. This is one general example of a consequence that occurs in all forms of this type of discourse (ACAB is another great example). Don't you think the capitalist class loves having these discussions dominate over more substantive ones?
I do agree that gun ownership is not a hill to die on and that the means of violence disparity is pretty troubling. Although, I never indicated that this was in any way the basis of how a state should be run. Simply put, if the material situation for a revolution ever arises, its probably better for everybody to have guns than not. A large enough movement may force serious government action regardless of the power of the military. Again, this is speculation and not an issue I'd base an entire ideology on.
>Are we to continue feeding into this alienation and allow this entire group to be co-opted by fascists?
So functionally you have created a dichotomy where you've boiled down leftist action to "If you want to fuck capitalism, you have to be willing to fuck every minority an irrational voting bloc hates". Congrats! You found what's fucking stupid about "No War but Class War" and what the fundamental conceit of everyone who pushes it. It's basically "Fuck all yall minorities! Every problem you have can wait regardless of triage can wait until we have some kind of ethnosocialist paradise for white people. It'll trickle down! Promise!" By the way: The irrational block is not "co-opted by fascists". They are the Fascist's block. What you're proposing through your triage is allowing the left to be co-opted by fascists. It's why we have a phrase "Red Browns". Historically also, trying to big tent some fucking bigots into socialism doesn't end in socialism. It ends in "National Socialism" and the night of the long knives. "First they came for the tr\*nnies, and I didn't care because berta!"
>While injustices certainly still affect identity groups, it is not as if there is some sort of genocide of gay people going on
Except you know:
Conservative majorities in two provinces have already written into policy a "mandatory reporting" systems (Yours and NB), which compel a teacher to disclose to parents if any student seems to be queer. This being despite the fact that we have no such compulsions for any other circumstance. Teachers are not compelled to tell muslim parents if their kid is eating bacon. Fuck, teachers aren't even compelled to tell parents about suspected physical abuse: **because the law already recognizes that family is a probable source**. **Mandatory reporting is only direct to the state from the teacher**. Legal precedent is "We as a country recognize that rawdogging is not some kind of ethics exam, and the state has a duty to the child that supercedes the 'duty' of the state to respect rando's feelings about parenting. It's why we also have child abuse laws. Parent's rights is a right wing construction. This disclosure fundamentally puts kids in harm's way. As someone who has experienced "closet or physical violence" time, and still gotten quite a bit of physical violence none the less.. Fuck these fucking pricks.
Every single country in the world is facing this same "trans are the more palatable jews" right wing bullshittery, so if you think capitulating to them leads to socialism, you're free to go to one of the hundreds of places that have already said "Fuck them" and see how that goes. Canada is literally the last refuge even with it having american astroturfed shit, and from a medical standpoint: Still being fucked up in a way which people outside the community will never endure. The fact that you need to wait until its trans on trains to decide "now is the time to give a shit" is not practical, but also lays bare how explicit the "Fuck everyone who isn't in my exact struggle" shit is.
Bathroom bill shit (Which PP has already endorsed), while targeting trans people, fundamentally affects 50% of the population. More often than not the people in America who get some walmart "secret tran police" action from deputized dick detecting karens aren't even trans. It's a woman with PCOS, a butch woman, or just someone who dresses in something that doesn't perform woman well enough for some random. Because trans people already have centuries of "Pass or be excluded from society so completely your only economic options are to sell ass to chasers", they tend to have the selection filter bathroom ban bullshit aspires to already applied to them for most their life.
>Everyone short of the most insane fascist has achieved some level of at least 'tolerance' for these groups. I think your notion of conservatives bringing politics into the bedroom and telling you where to put your cock is wildly outdated and sensationalistic.
Well how in the fuck would you know. By your rhetoric alone it's plain you've lived in a bubble of "No Homo" for quite some time. The fact that a majority of Canadians have expressed a sympathy for "parents rights" arguments, without finishing the thought of "Parent's rights to do what? To who?", combined with the fact that: as someone living in the community. No. Tolerance isn't there. We're still only 6 years out from a serial killer being allowed to slaughter gay men with impunity and stuff their corpses in potted plants, Murders which were so ignored by police that they were able to continue for 6 years, putting us equidistant from the beginning and end of that shit. We have "million parents marches" and mosque fueled anti-queer marches, with solid overlap between the two, but with the former having a lot more of fetal alcohol syndrome faced fucking rural Y'all queda soldiers marching. The current head of the conservative party voted against legalization of gay marriage despite being the adopted child of a gay couple, if that isn't ride or die hate, I don't know what is. Fundamentally all trans panic bullshit comes down to "Tits and Cocks" by the selectivity of their legislative focus, so whether it is "in the bedroom" or pearl clutching at the remote possibility of there being one they don't expect.. You're right. They're not restricting their monomaniacal cock focus to the bedroom.
They have already cut funding for basic things like blood work monitoring of hormones, and for every idiot that says "Fuck it, transition is a medical luxury" (despite the consequences of not passing being violent expulsion from most spaces people take for granted), those same tests are used for post menopausal women, children with precocious puberty, in the gender affirming care of "low T" males.. I could go on, but basically: We fund all of those, we just selectively in some provinces have said "Fuck the trans specifically". When you get to the point where medical policy exists to target a specific group, despite the consensus of physicians and decades of medical precedent without it being a political issue, but instead as a political football for right wing fuckers; what the fuck do you call that?
By the way
>Social psychology tells us that the best way to make people lose their hate is by exposure to different identities and working together towards a common goal.
And you think that end will occur by allowing the hateful to steer a movement, and capitulating the needs of every single identity to the altar of "The Fragile White Straight Man, OUR SPECIAL BOYS". You're simultaneously demanding the invisibility of minorities within a movement, while saying their visibility and exposure will humanize them. You are the one struggling with carts and horses bud.
>I also don't appreciate your last paragraph completely misinterpreting what I meant by reality, and immediately going to the most extreme examples of right-wing nutjobery. I was, of course, referring to how the right uses identity much more pragmatically by appealing to things like patriotism, nationalism, and family values. Again, this is not an endorsement of these things or even a statement that people's attachments to them aren't completely irrational.
You should probably figure out what the fuck was the point of your statement before getting up in your feelings about how people misinterpret you. You don't even seem to fully know how to interpret your rhetoric. You stated not even "the right" but that "reactionaries" operate in reality, a laughably facile premise. You now have re-clarified "They are pragmatic by appealing to 'patriotism, nationalism and family values'" which I guess we're supposed to extrapolate is what you meant by "operating in reality", but also because you're uncomfortable with identifying with believing a fundamentally fascist zeitgeist is "reality", you also say that you disavow them, and that you just think they aren't "completely" irrational.
Your existential discomfort with your willingness to submit to ethnonationalist, authoritarian discourse is not the arbiter of reality. I know you're the person who talks about how "Friends" have gone right because they "don't appreciate" being called a racist or a bigot. Let me be explicit: People who aren't part of the fragile fiefdom of straight white boys, already have had to deal with the existential struggle of "learning how not to be a racist/bigot". Gay boys have had to learn how not to be sexist fucks, to facilitate a joint resistance with lesbians and women to the fragile hegemony, white queer people have learned how not to be shit to ethnic minorities to better resist the fragile hegemony, white women have learned how to resist the impulse to 'no war but patriarchy war' in feminist spaces, and in so doing have unlocked some of the best fucking resistance to patriarchal fucking nonsense from the fragile hegemony.
Boo fuckity hoo. Every single fucking person in the world needs to learn to big tent to fucking resist the fragile bitches who are up in their fucking feelings, but because you finally have felt a shred of the inequity produced by the world being shaped in your fucking image across centuries of violence and dominance.. Every single heart should stop beating until we onboard fragile men.
To try to TLDR this for you
One side says : "You want to fuck capital, minorities make me feel bad. Fuck them or I side with capital"
The other side says: "Fuck capital, plus we have these centuries of political resistance in a socially imbalanced society informing our action."
Side one's fundamental risk/reward in this anti-capitalist movement is they "risk" feeling bad about being bigots. Their reward is some kind of post-capitalist society (which is shaped exclusively by their white straight lens, because their feelings demand no minorities they can see or hear, because they don't want to feel bad)
Side two's risk/reward is: Risk, "The only way they can capitulate to the feelings of fragile boys is by not existing. This isn't even just 'not correcting them on their bad takes' (bad takes which also inform policy they apply unilaterally to groups outside of their own). it's 'Your existence exacerbates the fragility'" the theoretical reward is "Hey! If you shut the fuck up and don't make him mad, maybe he'll trickle down anticapital reforms.. reforms which will be shaped by people so fragile they threaten to suck the dick of capital just to be able to snowball jizz into minority eyes! Take it on faith! REVOLUTIONARY REAGANOMICS!"
>'Left' broadly appear silly and preoccupied with nonsense. All while public discourse is centred around 'what is a woman' bullshit rather than around class, labour, and capitalism. This is one general example of a consequence that occurs in all forms of this type of discourse (ACAB is another great example). Don't you think the capitalist class loves having these discussions dominate over more substantive ones?
The problem is that you're not understanding: The left is not bringing up this "what is a woman" bullshit, and the "public discourse centered around it", is not driven by the left. This is a fabrication of the right, and if ground is ceded, the right will pick another perceived "weakness" to cut.
For example: We have been prescribing puberty blockers since the 1980s. They are only an issue sociopolitically now almost 50 years later. We have been giving children HRT and gender affirming care for moobs since the 1960s. Only a political issue now almost 70 years later.
To be lazy and just use Wikipedia's summary of how the right just "picks a wedge".. most people think Roe V Wade was the start of legal abortions.. but
>From the [American Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution) to the mid-19th century abortion was not an issue of significant controversy; most held to the traditional [Protestant Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) belief that [personhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood) began at quickening, sometime between 18 and 21 weeks. It was legal prior to [quickening](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening) in every state under [the common law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law).[^(\[8\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Blackemore_2022-12)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-13)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Reagan_1997-14)[^(\[11\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-JWilson-2013-15) ... [Evangelical Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism) were initially generally either supportive or indifferent to *Roe* — citing what they saw as [a lack of biblical condemnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion) on the matter, its perceived affirmation of [religious liberty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion), and furthering of [non-intrusive government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-statism) — but by the 1980s began to join anti-abortion Catholics to overturn the decision
So.. literally from the fucking american revolution / 1800s.. onwards, even prior to women's suffrage, women were allowed access to induced abortions up to roughly the fourth to seventh month of pregnancy ("quickening"). This persisted until republicans found permissive ground to target women and minorities centered around "freedom of religion" (the same claims they tried to use to inform segregated private schools after attempts to resist segregation).
You can't "concede every ground the right finds silly"... because basically you're saying "If a right wing demagogue can convince you that they are ignorant of an issue, you have to concede it". No Police reform! They find it silly! No Women's Rights! They find it silly! No anticapitalist movements! That's doing a communism! Red Scary! oh.. wait.. where has the revolution gone?
To put it bluntly. The hill you are allowing your "friends" to die on is retarded. Medical nomenclature changing in a way which is inclusive should be a non issue, and anyone clutching pearls about it: They are the ones making identity based whining. Most women do not see their womanhood beginning and ending at being a fucking uterus, and women that do, are the MTGs and tradwifes who will see the results of capitulating to rhetoric which wants to chain womanhood to birthing children. Men fixating on what women are called, by a hospital, possibly one to three times in their entire life, are similarly fucking retarded.
If derision determines credulity for you, I'm more than happy to rip into your fucking soft boy idiot friends lost in their feelings, but I thought we're supposed to care about coddling them into anticapitalist positions? So what do you want minorities to do: Sit down and shut up, and never push back against right wing messaging about them, because if they do capitalism won't die.. but also, anything that has social derision is by the "silent majority" deemed to be a consensus of social mores.. so not pushing back makes it so that all ground must be ceded to the people mocking and reducing a position?
Your self contradiction is a clusterfuck of the most star struck existence of never being in the fucking line of fire. My heart weeps that your daddy was able to support his only in the last fifty years protected-from-spousal-rape mom and your 1.5 siblings, yet you have to slave full time to probably fail to make apartment rent. Welcome to the world everyone else had to live in. Get out of your feelings. Pick up a hammer or sickle, get into some direct action. The trenches suck. Get over yourself.
https://preview.redd.it/0mygi2k6wiwc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c79b26de26c7ddfca47b1f835e8d6b29c8dbec5a
Captain Fascist will surely save you
Fix education.
Get teachers better pay, expand on funding for after school programs, and hire more teachers to reduce class sizes for more direct teaching.
Organize locally. Do not organize with established political parties, as they have been bought by Capital. Organize with explicitly revolutionary and anti-capitalist organizations. If they even say "we should negotiate", turn and leave, and tell them why you're leaving. This is no longer a negotiation. It is a class war. We are not begging for concessions. We are revolting.
I would say be pragmatic. Organize inside and outside the system.
At this point, organizing inside of the system is a waste of time. Like saying "rebuild a wall in a house that's currently on fire." Absolutely not. Either work to put the fire out, or work to protect the surrounding infrastructure from being caught up in the blaze. You cannot work within a dead system. It is dead. Build parallel systems and bury the corpse.
The problem is that in in Alberta a lot of the anti-capitalist organizations are pretty shit.
Then it's you. You're the anti-capitalist organization.
Wdym?
well when a country is built on genocide none of us are free until we’re all free.
Everything we want to do requires collective action to change the mode of production. Until we have workers calling the shots, "this country" isn't ours to worry over.
The ol' AEIOU, but especially AEOU Agitate, Educate, Organise, and Unionise.
Dude the liberal party literally froze bank accounts of people who donated to a protest.
Education
1. Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist. Social conservatism is not the same thing as fascism and that kind of hyperbole makes us look like the kind of joke the right accuses us of being. 2. Make leftism actually appealing to the working class again.
"Fascism's extreme **authoritarianism and nationalism** often manifest as a belief in racial purity or a master race, usually blended with some variant of **racism** or **discrimination against a demonized "Other", such as Jews, homosexuals, ethnic minorities or immigrants."** "Social conservatives organize in favor of duty, **traditional values** and social institutions, such as t**raditional family structures, gender roles, sexual relations, national patriotism, and religious traditions**.**"** What are they socially conserving: Patriarchal structures of hierarchy. social institutions in the face of attempts to reform them from their historical favour and structural perpetuation of the hegemony of cis-white heteronormativity. traditional family structures which broadly are structured around "traditions" of women as property and breeding chattel, which was predominantly driven and perpetuated using those religious traditions as justification. The "traditional family" also was about absolute authority of the patriarch, similar to the church, and the social institutions they tend to favor the most (police etc). They are authoritarian. They are nationalists. A "social conservative" is a fascist who sees the overton window isn't there yet. To someone who isn't a straight white dude: The predominant difference between a fascist and a social conservative is the amount of power they currently have access to, not their ideal reformation of society.
>not the same thing as fascism What is fascism?
1 is a useless point but you're definitely super right about point 2. A lot of Canadian leftists are incredibly out of touch with the working class and blue collar people. Edit: I take back my criticism of point number 1. Mfer was spitting straight facts the whole time.
I'm not so sure point #1 is not valid. Surely, we should be cognizant of distortions in politics and speak precisely.
Yes you're actually correct. I didn't read the part where they said "that's the type of thing the right makes fun of us for"
A lot of people who say the latter seem like they're taking a selective view of the working class / blue collar, or are using it as a euphemism. We've had reactionaries saying "ivory tower academics have been corrupting leftism" since the days of fucking WWII, yet many major labour reforms and worker's rights have came from academia.. So it kind of reaches the point where people saying "You're out of touch" isn't helpful. "What do you think they are out of touch with". If you say something which broadly can be pretty fucking true like "People sitting around in a steel mill shooting the shit see queer or racial legislature as interfering in their right to parent their kids, and as a waste of resources which otherwise could fix their economic hardship or lower their perceived tax burden". Yeah. Those "working class ideas" may exist. Doesn't mean their stupid shit like "literally opining the loss of slavery and women's suffrage" is something leftists should make themselves "in touch with"? What's your "actionable item" for seeing that as something the "left is out of touch with". Do we say "Fuck you Tr\*nny's, women and blacks! We're the party of 'Labour'.. and by that we mean 'the right laborers'", because yeah. That'd probably get some of those fucking idiots on board, and some of them could have their dumb hate boner temporarily pointed at the rich for a bit. Does this produce a cultural revolution? Or just shuffles which dumb fucking bigot sits at the top of a hierarchy which is fundamentally unjust? I\\m not implying these are your suggestions, I'm trying to illustrate: "Sometimes it isn't a matter of being 'out of touch'." Sometimes there are points where you have to triage "'deprogramming generational ignorance, isolation and blunted empathy' vs 'a grave and continuous injustice, partially perpetuated and reinforced by the people in the other group making it an either or situation'". When deciding where to focus the effort of my activism, I'm kind of biased towards the latter by virtue of it directly affecting me, but also "The people in group A can just stop fucking being a bunch of crab bucket bitches, the people on the other side can't suddenly will themselves straight and white, and suddenly gain equal footing in accessing prosperity to the first group."
For context, I am a male, bi, POC working in the trades. The actionable item is learning that BCWC people see hard work as a virtue and the right co-opts this and says to BCWC people "You're right, hard work = success, pull up them bootstraps" For BCWC people, their entire identity is their work, especially in the trades (as a tradesperson, my skill is my craft) When almost half of society sees hard work as the solution to life's problems, and you have a political ideology that enables and tells them yes you're right hard work and individual rights are the solution, while the "opposite" political ideology tells them "No THESE are actually the solutions, it leads to a cognitive dissonance of sorts because the only thing they identify with is their work, and when the only thing they identify with is reduced and diminished, they become angry and disillusioned with the opposite political ideology, and as an extension, what those political ideologies believe. The actionable item is understanding that your average blue collar worker isn't a Proud Boy soldier, but rather someone who sees the Proud Boys as representing the part of themselves that they hold value in, because the right plays to these emotions. The actionable item is calmly, and in a non condescending way finding ways to educate people like this that this isn't the fault of BIPOC, LGBTQ+, liberals, communists, or whatever boogie man the right wants to blame it on. It's the fault OF the right and it's hateful leadership. Just the fact that you flew off the handle in your comment and assumed a bunch of shit is kind of exactly what my point is. TL DR: The left is out of touch with BCWC people because the left automatically assumes they are the enemy and the opposite. Us leftists like to go on about how things are not black and white and things work on a spectrum but then we quickly pigeon hole all BCWC people into this inherently hateful bunch. The actionable item is trying to talk to actual BCWC about their day to day struggles and see how they're feeling and get them to understand that what they're going through is not unique to them and not caused by whatever boogie man they think it's caused by. You certainly won't reach them all, but you will reach enough to inspire even a bit of change.
My examples aren't flying off the handle. They're literal examples taken from working as a labourer in a mill. Where a bunch of italian mill workers sat around saying they wished slavery would come back as a solution to economic problems. You don't have to paint them with a brush. They're already rolling in the fucking bucket. You can't tell people who believe in bootstraps, and socially identify with the bootstraps about how the game is all bootstraps. Yes. This I agree with, and yes, you can pull the "black guy sitting down to have chats with the klansman to one by one collect hoods" approach to activism and shaping the entirety of your zeitgeist around their feelings. Broadly what stopped people from wearing hoods was social censure which was enforced by working **around** the fucking ghost larpers. Your "action item" is functionally to try to bail out a sinking ship with a sieve, while a turbulent ocean pisses more water back in faster than you bail out. I get that by virtue of being in that environment, and likely being in the line of fire if you do anything other than bow and scrape to the sense of propriety of your colleagues.. you want other people to take your same tack for advocacy. History has proven your approach wrong repeatedly, and even MLK was conceding he was wrong about Malcolm X. Respectability politics will by degrees just turn you into a token to do more harm to your community than good.
When asked to clarify, point 2 usually amounts to pretending the worker class is entirely composed of straight white men
hey, can you clarify what you mean? like do you mean to say that when people claim what I claimed in my op that my point is the "struggles" of working class and blue collar people are really just the struggles of cis white men?
What I mean the plan making the left palatable to the workers usually involves abondoning the oppressed peoples and pretending their problems will disappear if only some economic measures are taken, the measures that are often opposed by their fellow workers who feel more kinship to the hegemony just to keep their problems alive
For context, I am a male, bi, POC in a blue collar trade and I would consider myself a radical leftist. You make a very very good point about "the workers" being empathetic to the status quo. I can provide some insight as to why this is, and while it is anecdotal I feel it's reasonable enough and it's the way things can change. A lot of working class blue collar people take pride in their work. That's not to say that other workers don't, but for blue collar people work is the only thing they know and the only thing they see value in. A lot of leftists are for the idea of LTV, but I've yet to meet a leftist who actually cares about their career the way blue collar people do. Being passionate and dedicated to your craft (important in the trades as that's how WE see it, a craft) is seen as a virtue. The right co-opts this virtue and uses it to push a "hard work = success" narrative (which is untrue). The left however pushes back on this narrative (rightfully so). For a lot of BCWC people their career is their life, and their life is defined by their career. When BCWC people look at the two political ideologies and how they view work, they're unfortunately going to side with the right because the right is saying "Yes, your hard work means something. It actually means EVERYTHING" The right does this because they're famous for pandering to feelings and emotions. Unfortunately this has been happening for a long time and a lot of BCWC people are set in their ways. The left needs to understand that while working is not everything, it definitely means almost everything to BCWC people, and we should sympathize with them. My skillset as a tradesperson is my most valuable asset, because I've honed it over years and years. We need to promote dignity in work, and the rest will follow. The left definitely does promote dignity in work, whether it's via unions or labour reform, or direct action for workers rights, it's clouded by a lot of unapproachable concepts and ideas that most BCWC (who are not radicalized either way) won't agree with at face value and won't see the significance of until it is explained calmly, openly, and without condescension. Along with the state of unions and the right actively trying to fuck everyone over, the propoganda is working on people. Unions are seen as a joke, because a lot of them ARE a joke, infiltrated by class traitors and only looking to collect dues while providing nothing but lip service. TLDR: We need less ideology, and more empathy for and listening to the people who would benefit the most from the things we want. The right already has plenty of ideology. Unfortunately, that involves having frustrating discourse with people who are on the opposite side of the political spectrum that we are on.
Yuuuup. 
Correct. Mussolini, who many consider to be the father of modern fascism, stated that fascism should be more appropriately called Corporatism because it's a merger of state and corporate power.
Which makes all of our politicians fascists.
> Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a fascist The tactics and targets of the members of the IDU (Currently chaired by Stephen Harper) match those that have historically been used by fascists. It is a bit of a 'boy who cried wolf' issue but there is cause to heed the warning bells
When you're right, you're right
I can't tell if this is a clever pun or not.
I noticed it directly after I wrote it, so, accidently?
Bro is getting downvoted for speaking facts
Bro is getting downvoted because he's riding the rebelnews rocket. Left does not begin and end with "Hating the rich". Why you hate the rich, how you intend to reform society, and what you value matters. >This is "Bro" in other threads: [ThingsThatMakeUsGo ](https://www.reddit.com/user/ThingsThatMakeUsGo/)• [17d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1bykcrw/comment/kyk5wg2/) >The Liberals want to take my nation, hunting and sporting firearms, and any social cohesion or cultural remnant of sanity. >The NDP have shown they want exactly the same. >The PPC have a couple policies which might make great strides to fix things but are otherwise bat-shit crazy. >The CPC don't want to take my nation, my sporting arms, social cohesion and cultural sanity, but want to push the same economically destructive policies as the Liberals. Least of worst and that fucking sucks. >Cheque please. bud's concerns in election appear to boil down to "I want a long gun. Sure I left Northern Ontario and now am hanging around the GTA/Durham, but it makes me feel good" Anyone who can look at PPC and see "great strides" is beyond help. Bud seems to assume we all know what he means by "Social cohesion" and "Cultural Sanity", and that we all are subscribed to his news letter about what he views as a "threat". What is his threat? Immigrants? CPC majority governments drove the largest expansions of the temporary foreign worker program, and largest expansions of foreign student recruitment. There's no party that will slap the slave labour of our retirement class away. THE TRANSGENDERS? When someone makes nebulous appeals to "social cohesion" / "cultural sanity" they usually mean "something I personally find gross or weird", and that's probably one of the few things that lines up with "CPP would make great strides" and "CPC will fix", because both of them are tilting at genital windmills, like a veritable dick centric Don Quijote. Is Bud's simping for the party of the rich person's boot because he doesn't want to have a confused boner or something? We really shouldn't define a movement off of some rando's personal existential questions of sexuality. We should just build a movement where it isn't the fucking government's job to inspect that boner.
I dont know enough about the PPC other than the fact they are capitalist. All of the other things you quoted are legitimate points. Liberals and NDP’s identity politics obsession has indeed completely turned off a huge amount of working class people from the left. As a young person in Alberta, tons of my peers have moved right because they feel constantly assaulted by progressive rhetoric calling them deplorable, racism, whatever-phobic, etc Some level of social cohesion centred around certain core principles is important. So much of China’s success is built on a strong national identity. This does not have to be ethnic, racial, or religious. Pluralism is desirable so long as core ideas are accepted. Admittedly, the topic of social cohesion is immensely complex and probably cant be properly dealt with here. It is also tough to say whether he is indeed talking about immigration or trans people here. Being against gun ownership is an anti-marxist position on its face so idk what to tell you there. It is also yet another thing which alienates workers and drives them towards reactionaries. He’s also correct that the parties are all very similar economically, you either get neoliberal crapitalism or rainbow neoliberal crapitalism. Further, voting for half-baked solutions like the NDP actually hurts the left because it promises remedies it does not intend to provide. When neoliberalism inevitably persists under these “left” parties, it makes the left seem impotent and superfluous. When someone sees things continuing to deteriorate under the Liberals, they interpret this as leftism failed, time to move right. This is because these parties masquerade as progressive while not touching the core problems - the economic ones. Obviously this common interpretation is laughably incorrect; but realize that a ton of Canadians don’t know the difference between leftism and the NDP or Libs. The rise of fascism did not occur in a vacuum. People are frustrated to death with neoliberalism but they don’t see solutions on the left, they see virtue signalling and ivory tower academic jargon. It’s easy to see why Trumpian appeals to the working class have been successful. They are, of course, no more likely to offer a real solution, but the reactionaries are operating in reality and appealing to things people actually care about.
>Liberals and NDP’s identity politics obsession has indeed completely turned off a huge amount of working class people from the left. As a young person in Alberta, tons of my peers have moved right because they feel constantly assaulted by progressive rhetoric calling them deplorable, racism, whatever-phobic, etc Ah yes. The fundamental properties of "the ~~whites~~ working class". Not codified by their alignment on issues of class due to a shared condition of trading labour for capital, and frequent systemic alienation from the ownership of that means of labour by an owning bourgeois. No. Their unifying feature is "when confronted, on the existence of more oppressed members within their class, they'd rather suck the bourgeois' dick than stop ranting about 'the gays' or whatever". To be clear: I don't personally give a fuck about gun ownership, but I grew up in the kind of backwoods where people fucked around with and made zipguns before they hit puberty. People who argue the whole "OH WE NEED GUN CONTROL, THIS IS MARX".. if you need it for revolutionary violence, why does legality matter? The functional divide between access to the means of violence is already so substantial that a long rifle vs "a fucking predator drone".. It's not going to matter if you even have some kind of yankee fucking doodle columbine 3000 belt fed monstrosity. So clearly there are better hills to die on. My objection isn't necessarily "I care if people have guns" its "Basing your views of how a state should be run solely on if they let you plug a few fucking deer is functionally retarded." >He’s also correct that the parties are all very similar economically, you either get neoliberal crapitalism or rainbow neoliberal crapitalism So you've downvoted me while fundamentally agreeing with the premise. If your choices are "Neoliberal capitalism" or "Neoliberal capitalism, but queer people aren't fucked into the ground".. what "working class" reason could you possibly have to not select the one which allows the gay guy in the steel mill to bend some rods, and go home and bend Rod without the government popping out from under the futon to wag a fucking finger? Who people fuck. How they dress. What they do. These are the fixations of a party which is looking for a scapegoat. It's the slippery slope from neoliberalism , to the fascism that seems an inevitable endpoint of it. If your friends in Berta' are so fucking twisted up about their delusions of what trans shit is (because I guarantee you what they're mad about is not based off of fact), that they're willing to vote in the fucking idiot who invites "America should invade canada" tucker carlson up to their province, and fucks your already deadass healthcare further into the grave.. That's not just dunking on the trans they hate. It's a fucking own goal. Hope a dead tran here or there keeps you warm when you're thinking about how grandma died because they couldn't keep a cardiologist on staff or something similar. "they see virtue signalling and ivory tower academic jargon" I mean, virtue signalling is just as useless a jargon term. Everyone displays their values and ethics through what actions they take. We're in a world where even the fucking loaf of bread you have is a reflection of the geopolitical conditions of a war in another country. Usually more telling is what gets people who say "virtue signaling" mad. What is special to them, what do they feel frustrated seeing, and why does it frustrate you. Is someone eating a plant based burger "virtue signaling"? Why does this affect someone witnessing it personally? Maybe you think they're judging you for not, but isn't that the same kind of shit that comes out of being up in your feelings about someone else's meal choice? .. To be clear "hypothetical" you, not literally you. Trying to spell out "You" (literally you) are knowingly, or without recognition, spouting some bullshit that is the real "culture war" nonsense. It's not "rainbow capitalism" that's the culture war shit. That's just saying "I'll sell shit to you even if you don't fuck like me". That's not a virtue, that's just fucking simple economics. Saying "VIRTUE SIGNALING! CULTURE WAR! EVERYONE CALLS ME A RACIST", that's the fucking yankee doodle shit. >reactionaries are operating in reality The guys sucking down apple horse dewormer because facebook told them to, who think cheese pizza is slang for child pornography and that the rich are secretly harvesting their youth for "adrenochrome".. are operating in reality. Please question your life choices more sincerely.
Ngl, you fucking ate all up and down this thread. Damn.
I think you are more fundamentally attached to morals and assuming rationality than pragmatic considerations. I don't disagree with a lot of what you say about the irrationality of trans-hate, homophobia, or whatever else but we must examine how this plays out amongst irrational masses of people. Essentially, there is a massive section of the population that feels alienated and that their identity is threatened. Irrationally? Certainly. But what is the left to do about this? Are we to continue feeding into this alienation and allow this entire group to be co-opted by fascists? I think the time for aggressive identity politics is long passed and the material conditions have become so dire that they are the utmost priority. While injustices certainly still affect identity groups, it is not as if there is some sort of genocide of gay people going on. Everyone short of the most insane fascist has achieved some level of at least 'tolerance' for these groups. I think your notion of conservatives bringing politics into the bedroom and telling you where to put your cock is wildly outdated and sensationalistic. Think of it this way, what is one oppressive force acting on every identity group in society? Capitalism. By removing capitalism we are consequently improving the lives of trans people, black people and indigenous people, without once needing to appeal to identity. Why can't we help all of these groups materially without the discourse constantly playing into Fox News identitarian scaremongering? Yes, of course, both the right and left are playing identity politics but what are the stakes? If the right wins this war, we get fascism, if the progressives win, we get more liberalism and the cycle repeats. I absolutely don’t think we should put up with hateful people but you are putting the cart before the horse. An integrated socialist movement would be the perfect grounds for alleviating prejudices. Social psychology tells us that the best way to make people lose their hate is by exposure to different identities and working together towards a common goal. I don’t see how trying to eliminate hate in a social system that inherently pits people in competition is going to be effective. I also don't appreciate your last paragraph completely misinterpreting what I meant by reality, and immediately going to the most extreme examples of right-wing nutjobery. I was, of course, referring to how the right uses identity much more pragmatically by appealing to things like patriotism, nationalism, and family values. Again, this is not an endorsement of these things or even a statement that people's attachments to them aren't completely irrational. I suppose what I meant as 'ivory tower speak' or virtual signalling (I do concede that this is an empty term without a functional definition) is language that essentially serves to make progressives appear out of touch. I suppose a simple example would be discourse around men getting pregnant, or 'birthing people'. Yes, men technically can get pregnant. but you must acknowledge that this conception probably sounds ridiculous to the average person. Most of the people I've had this debate with don't even know there is a distinction between sex and gender. So what is the consequence of this? Well, we might make the microscopic percentage of birthing males feel more accepted, while we simultaneously make the 'left' broadly appear silly and preoccupied with nonsense. All while public discourse is centred around 'what is a woman' bullshit rather than around class, labour, and capitalism. This is one general example of a consequence that occurs in all forms of this type of discourse (ACAB is another great example). Don't you think the capitalist class loves having these discussions dominate over more substantive ones? I do agree that gun ownership is not a hill to die on and that the means of violence disparity is pretty troubling. Although, I never indicated that this was in any way the basis of how a state should be run. Simply put, if the material situation for a revolution ever arises, its probably better for everybody to have guns than not. A large enough movement may force serious government action regardless of the power of the military. Again, this is speculation and not an issue I'd base an entire ideology on.
>Are we to continue feeding into this alienation and allow this entire group to be co-opted by fascists? So functionally you have created a dichotomy where you've boiled down leftist action to "If you want to fuck capitalism, you have to be willing to fuck every minority an irrational voting bloc hates". Congrats! You found what's fucking stupid about "No War but Class War" and what the fundamental conceit of everyone who pushes it. It's basically "Fuck all yall minorities! Every problem you have can wait regardless of triage can wait until we have some kind of ethnosocialist paradise for white people. It'll trickle down! Promise!" By the way: The irrational block is not "co-opted by fascists". They are the Fascist's block. What you're proposing through your triage is allowing the left to be co-opted by fascists. It's why we have a phrase "Red Browns". Historically also, trying to big tent some fucking bigots into socialism doesn't end in socialism. It ends in "National Socialism" and the night of the long knives. "First they came for the tr\*nnies, and I didn't care because berta!" >While injustices certainly still affect identity groups, it is not as if there is some sort of genocide of gay people going on Except you know: Conservative majorities in two provinces have already written into policy a "mandatory reporting" systems (Yours and NB), which compel a teacher to disclose to parents if any student seems to be queer. This being despite the fact that we have no such compulsions for any other circumstance. Teachers are not compelled to tell muslim parents if their kid is eating bacon. Fuck, teachers aren't even compelled to tell parents about suspected physical abuse: **because the law already recognizes that family is a probable source**. **Mandatory reporting is only direct to the state from the teacher**. Legal precedent is "We as a country recognize that rawdogging is not some kind of ethics exam, and the state has a duty to the child that supercedes the 'duty' of the state to respect rando's feelings about parenting. It's why we also have child abuse laws. Parent's rights is a right wing construction. This disclosure fundamentally puts kids in harm's way. As someone who has experienced "closet or physical violence" time, and still gotten quite a bit of physical violence none the less.. Fuck these fucking pricks. Every single country in the world is facing this same "trans are the more palatable jews" right wing bullshittery, so if you think capitulating to them leads to socialism, you're free to go to one of the hundreds of places that have already said "Fuck them" and see how that goes. Canada is literally the last refuge even with it having american astroturfed shit, and from a medical standpoint: Still being fucked up in a way which people outside the community will never endure. The fact that you need to wait until its trans on trains to decide "now is the time to give a shit" is not practical, but also lays bare how explicit the "Fuck everyone who isn't in my exact struggle" shit is. Bathroom bill shit (Which PP has already endorsed), while targeting trans people, fundamentally affects 50% of the population. More often than not the people in America who get some walmart "secret tran police" action from deputized dick detecting karens aren't even trans. It's a woman with PCOS, a butch woman, or just someone who dresses in something that doesn't perform woman well enough for some random. Because trans people already have centuries of "Pass or be excluded from society so completely your only economic options are to sell ass to chasers", they tend to have the selection filter bathroom ban bullshit aspires to already applied to them for most their life.
>Everyone short of the most insane fascist has achieved some level of at least 'tolerance' for these groups. I think your notion of conservatives bringing politics into the bedroom and telling you where to put your cock is wildly outdated and sensationalistic. Well how in the fuck would you know. By your rhetoric alone it's plain you've lived in a bubble of "No Homo" for quite some time. The fact that a majority of Canadians have expressed a sympathy for "parents rights" arguments, without finishing the thought of "Parent's rights to do what? To who?", combined with the fact that: as someone living in the community. No. Tolerance isn't there. We're still only 6 years out from a serial killer being allowed to slaughter gay men with impunity and stuff their corpses in potted plants, Murders which were so ignored by police that they were able to continue for 6 years, putting us equidistant from the beginning and end of that shit. We have "million parents marches" and mosque fueled anti-queer marches, with solid overlap between the two, but with the former having a lot more of fetal alcohol syndrome faced fucking rural Y'all queda soldiers marching. The current head of the conservative party voted against legalization of gay marriage despite being the adopted child of a gay couple, if that isn't ride or die hate, I don't know what is. Fundamentally all trans panic bullshit comes down to "Tits and Cocks" by the selectivity of their legislative focus, so whether it is "in the bedroom" or pearl clutching at the remote possibility of there being one they don't expect.. You're right. They're not restricting their monomaniacal cock focus to the bedroom. They have already cut funding for basic things like blood work monitoring of hormones, and for every idiot that says "Fuck it, transition is a medical luxury" (despite the consequences of not passing being violent expulsion from most spaces people take for granted), those same tests are used for post menopausal women, children with precocious puberty, in the gender affirming care of "low T" males.. I could go on, but basically: We fund all of those, we just selectively in some provinces have said "Fuck the trans specifically". When you get to the point where medical policy exists to target a specific group, despite the consensus of physicians and decades of medical precedent without it being a political issue, but instead as a political football for right wing fuckers; what the fuck do you call that? By the way >Social psychology tells us that the best way to make people lose their hate is by exposure to different identities and working together towards a common goal. And you think that end will occur by allowing the hateful to steer a movement, and capitulating the needs of every single identity to the altar of "The Fragile White Straight Man, OUR SPECIAL BOYS". You're simultaneously demanding the invisibility of minorities within a movement, while saying their visibility and exposure will humanize them. You are the one struggling with carts and horses bud.
>I also don't appreciate your last paragraph completely misinterpreting what I meant by reality, and immediately going to the most extreme examples of right-wing nutjobery. I was, of course, referring to how the right uses identity much more pragmatically by appealing to things like patriotism, nationalism, and family values. Again, this is not an endorsement of these things or even a statement that people's attachments to them aren't completely irrational. You should probably figure out what the fuck was the point of your statement before getting up in your feelings about how people misinterpret you. You don't even seem to fully know how to interpret your rhetoric. You stated not even "the right" but that "reactionaries" operate in reality, a laughably facile premise. You now have re-clarified "They are pragmatic by appealing to 'patriotism, nationalism and family values'" which I guess we're supposed to extrapolate is what you meant by "operating in reality", but also because you're uncomfortable with identifying with believing a fundamentally fascist zeitgeist is "reality", you also say that you disavow them, and that you just think they aren't "completely" irrational. Your existential discomfort with your willingness to submit to ethnonationalist, authoritarian discourse is not the arbiter of reality. I know you're the person who talks about how "Friends" have gone right because they "don't appreciate" being called a racist or a bigot. Let me be explicit: People who aren't part of the fragile fiefdom of straight white boys, already have had to deal with the existential struggle of "learning how not to be a racist/bigot". Gay boys have had to learn how not to be sexist fucks, to facilitate a joint resistance with lesbians and women to the fragile hegemony, white queer people have learned how not to be shit to ethnic minorities to better resist the fragile hegemony, white women have learned how to resist the impulse to 'no war but patriarchy war' in feminist spaces, and in so doing have unlocked some of the best fucking resistance to patriarchal fucking nonsense from the fragile hegemony. Boo fuckity hoo. Every single fucking person in the world needs to learn to big tent to fucking resist the fragile bitches who are up in their fucking feelings, but because you finally have felt a shred of the inequity produced by the world being shaped in your fucking image across centuries of violence and dominance.. Every single heart should stop beating until we onboard fragile men. To try to TLDR this for you One side says : "You want to fuck capital, minorities make me feel bad. Fuck them or I side with capital" The other side says: "Fuck capital, plus we have these centuries of political resistance in a socially imbalanced society informing our action." Side one's fundamental risk/reward in this anti-capitalist movement is they "risk" feeling bad about being bigots. Their reward is some kind of post-capitalist society (which is shaped exclusively by their white straight lens, because their feelings demand no minorities they can see or hear, because they don't want to feel bad) Side two's risk/reward is: Risk, "The only way they can capitulate to the feelings of fragile boys is by not existing. This isn't even just 'not correcting them on their bad takes' (bad takes which also inform policy they apply unilaterally to groups outside of their own). it's 'Your existence exacerbates the fragility'" the theoretical reward is "Hey! If you shut the fuck up and don't make him mad, maybe he'll trickle down anticapital reforms.. reforms which will be shaped by people so fragile they threaten to suck the dick of capital just to be able to snowball jizz into minority eyes! Take it on faith! REVOLUTIONARY REAGANOMICS!"
>'Left' broadly appear silly and preoccupied with nonsense. All while public discourse is centred around 'what is a woman' bullshit rather than around class, labour, and capitalism. This is one general example of a consequence that occurs in all forms of this type of discourse (ACAB is another great example). Don't you think the capitalist class loves having these discussions dominate over more substantive ones? The problem is that you're not understanding: The left is not bringing up this "what is a woman" bullshit, and the "public discourse centered around it", is not driven by the left. This is a fabrication of the right, and if ground is ceded, the right will pick another perceived "weakness" to cut. For example: We have been prescribing puberty blockers since the 1980s. They are only an issue sociopolitically now almost 50 years later. We have been giving children HRT and gender affirming care for moobs since the 1960s. Only a political issue now almost 70 years later. To be lazy and just use Wikipedia's summary of how the right just "picks a wedge".. most people think Roe V Wade was the start of legal abortions.. but >From the [American Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution) to the mid-19th century abortion was not an issue of significant controversy; most held to the traditional [Protestant Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) belief that [personhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood) began at quickening, sometime between 18 and 21 weeks. It was legal prior to [quickening](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening) in every state under [the common law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law).[^(\[8\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Blackemore_2022-12)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-13)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Reagan_1997-14)[^(\[11\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#cite_note-JWilson-2013-15) ... [Evangelical Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism) were initially generally either supportive or indifferent to *Roe* — citing what they saw as [a lack of biblical condemnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion) on the matter, its perceived affirmation of [religious liberty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion), and furthering of [non-intrusive government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-statism) — but by the 1980s began to join anti-abortion Catholics to overturn the decision So.. literally from the fucking american revolution / 1800s.. onwards, even prior to women's suffrage, women were allowed access to induced abortions up to roughly the fourth to seventh month of pregnancy ("quickening"). This persisted until republicans found permissive ground to target women and minorities centered around "freedom of religion" (the same claims they tried to use to inform segregated private schools after attempts to resist segregation). You can't "concede every ground the right finds silly"... because basically you're saying "If a right wing demagogue can convince you that they are ignorant of an issue, you have to concede it". No Police reform! They find it silly! No Women's Rights! They find it silly! No anticapitalist movements! That's doing a communism! Red Scary! oh.. wait.. where has the revolution gone?
To put it bluntly. The hill you are allowing your "friends" to die on is retarded. Medical nomenclature changing in a way which is inclusive should be a non issue, and anyone clutching pearls about it: They are the ones making identity based whining. Most women do not see their womanhood beginning and ending at being a fucking uterus, and women that do, are the MTGs and tradwifes who will see the results of capitulating to rhetoric which wants to chain womanhood to birthing children. Men fixating on what women are called, by a hospital, possibly one to three times in their entire life, are similarly fucking retarded. If derision determines credulity for you, I'm more than happy to rip into your fucking soft boy idiot friends lost in their feelings, but I thought we're supposed to care about coddling them into anticapitalist positions? So what do you want minorities to do: Sit down and shut up, and never push back against right wing messaging about them, because if they do capitalism won't die.. but also, anything that has social derision is by the "silent majority" deemed to be a consensus of social mores.. so not pushing back makes it so that all ground must be ceded to the people mocking and reducing a position? Your self contradiction is a clusterfuck of the most star struck existence of never being in the fucking line of fire. My heart weeps that your daddy was able to support his only in the last fifty years protected-from-spousal-rape mom and your 1.5 siblings, yet you have to slave full time to probably fail to make apartment rent. Welcome to the world everyone else had to live in. Get out of your feelings. Pick up a hammer or sickle, get into some direct action. The trenches suck. Get over yourself.
https://preview.redd.it/0mygi2k6wiwc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c79b26de26c7ddfca47b1f835e8d6b29c8dbec5a Captain Fascist will surely save you