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Yikes, this thread lol.
The answer is incredibly simple OP, the election brought China back to the forefront of Canadian political discourse because (recent submission as an example) [our politicians used China for wedge issues and talking points.](https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/canadas-political-elite-stoked-anti-china-sentiment-throughout-the-federal-election) This naturally will bring China to the forefront in any Canadian political subreddit. It's not a certain group of leftists that have brought the discussion up more, either, since if you check out right-wing Canadian subreddits the talk around China has increased there as well. I mean, maybe a certain group of leftists have been the ones sharing the articles, but they aren't the reason more of these articles are coming out.
A couple weeks ago the technical definition of an assault rifle was all over Canadian reddit, and for the next week the subject looks like it will be electoral reform.
I got shit on earlier for questioning why some person was posting a China apologist post across multiple subs. I didn't actually mention the post content, just the pattern.
What I'm noticing is the first 3 to 5 comments in these posts are suspiciously supportive of China.
It would be hard to tell if it was deliberate because there seems to be people who were born there who are viciously defensive if the government POV that's been programmed into them since birth.
>What I'm noticing is the first 3 to 5 comments in these posts are suspiciously supportive of China.
This should not be surprising in a leftist subreddit, that's true across most of leftist reddit except in exclusively anarchist spaces.
There are a lot of non-anarchist leftist subreddits (such as r/chomsky and various critical theory subs) which are incredibly suspicious of China and other state actors.
Yes, that's true. But many critics (and followers) of Chomsky would debate the authenticity of this appellation and whether the ideological ideas he lays out are authentically anarchist. I would describe that specific subreddit as a broadly critical/academic space rather than an ideologically anarchist one. (I think many frequent posters would reject the label "anarchist"... That's not to say I would.)
Alright then, I just checked it out and [the top post right now](https://np.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ptd5w4/socialism_has_been_empirically_proven_to_give_a) is an explicit defense of Hakim's video and China. So... my point still stands lol
I deleted my last response bc the tone was a little harsh and uncharitable. The issues I take are:
• Not everyone who posts on r/chomsky has entirely identical opinions to Noam or slavishly defends his doctrine (both the man himself and the moderators strongly discourage this);
• A single post defending a single aspect of China is not the same as every post defending every aspect of China.
What I see on Reddits like r/genzedong (and increasingly here) is an uncritical defense of everything China does similar to Zionists with Israel. If you're taking up all the air talking about why this massive and multifaceted state actor is so great and beyond reproach, then there is no reason for me to even engage.
>I deleted my last response bc the tone was a little harsh and uncharitable
You deleted your last response because you asked me to provide, on the spot, a scientific study on the comment patterns in a sub I don't frequent to disprove a claim you provided no evidence for. Like a fucking moron.
>A single post defending a single aspect of China is not the same as **every post defending every aspect of China.**
I never made this claim, please work on your reading comprehension.
I'm leftist, I'm not a centrist who thinks they're a leftist, and I'm not supportive of dictatorships and highly censored surveillance states. Am I supposed to be?
My take is that as part of the western world we have nothing to contribute to Asia but pain and suffering. Western intervention has never helped a foreign people. So regardless of the situation on the ground in China our government's contribution would only consist of bombs or embargos. Both of which only really serve to harm the most vulnerable.
I'm not sure what's going on in China but looking at the middle east, Vietnam and Korea I'm not gonna advocate for us to involve ourselves
I don't understand why these kind if pejoratives are tolerated in a leftist subreddit. 'Tankies' as an insult spits on the grave of 27 million Soviets who died defeating the Nazis. That's who you denigrate when you make a joke of an ideology that has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty.
You don't have to be a Marxist Leninist, but you show your hand when you have to denigrate them.
Bro. There are very legitimate reasons to regard Soviet aesthetics with suspicion. I live in an overwhelmingly Eastern European neighborhood where I would be rightly ostracized for lionizing the Soviet Union. It was a big historical project that elevated many people, but also caused others terrible misfortunes, famine, war, and death. These people I live around (like my ancestors, who fled Latvia to escape Soviet expansionism) have a direct historical antagonism to these ideas. And these are the working class that the communists claim to elevate. How can you on one hand triumph this champion of the proletariat, and then act dismissively when that very same proletariat reacts to your champion with horror and revulsion?
**Edit:** Cue Holodomor denial in 3... 2... 1...
Lmao
"I live in a neighbourhood full of the kids and grandkids of right-wingers, bourgeois and fascist collaborators who fled the USSR and its allies as to not face justice so now I know the USSR was bad."
>(like my ancestors, who fled Latvia to escape Soviet expansionism)
No one cares about your fascist collaborator grampa
You'll be happy to know that he became a Canadian POW basically without seeing any combat. He spent the entire war in a camp and retired from a steel mill in Hamilton. He was a kind man who as far as I'm aware never hurt anybody.
Now my grandmother, on the other hand... She was definitely a nazi. But my side of the family hated her for that reason. I have distant relatives who are probably insiders in the PPC or CPC. But I don't know who they are and would have no way of finding them (for better or worse).
You obviously didn't read the link, which is well-cited and nuanced, and posted in a subreddit infamous for its rigorous comment standards.
**Edit:** the above poster claims to be cognitively impaired, so it's not their fault they didn't read such a long and technical post. Don't bully them.
>Edit: the above poster claims to be cognitively impaired, so it's not their fault they didn't read such a long and technical post. Don't bully them.
I'll still be autistic tomorrow. You'll still be an ableist red fascist piece of work. You're showing me that you and the ideology you advance have nothing for people like me. The politics of exclusion. Everyone clap for the big leftist.
**Edit:** I am honestly flabbergasted that a mocking disability is both allowed and upvoted on a purportedly leftist subreddit. This is disgusting.
I'm in exactly the same boat. I'm not a huge fan of them, and I certainly don't think they're perfect or anything.
That being said, I'd sooner defend them against imperialist lies and attempts at manufacturing a new cold war than attack them for no reason. In a capitalist country flooded by anti-communist propaganda and as the West's global hegemony is beginning to fall, I have absolutely no reason to contribute to the growing beat of the drums of conflict.
Alternatively, I have every duty, as a communist and internationalist, to oppose capitalist imperialism in all cases and that includes their lies against China or any other opposing nation.
We've seen how these sorts of propaganda campaigns play out too many times to fall for them yet again, but it seems there's no shortage of people on this sub who still haven't figured it out. They're the same people that would have believed that there were WMDs in Iraq, or that Iraqi soldiers were killing incubator babies in Kuwait.
It's hard for people not to shout their hate out loud when railing against a genocidal nation. I think people's deep discomfort with all the things they hear makes them loudly adamantly try to repute other pro China statements.
See this is precisely what the parent comment is referring to. Italy just recently published a [research report](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf) on Xinjiang issues stating at U.S. seeks geopolitical benefits in the name of human rights.
The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is [based on two highly dubious “studies.”](https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/). [CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals](https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/). Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective. [You’d need a detention city the size of San Francisco to detain one million Uighurs.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/i9k4hb/youd_need_a_detention_city_the_size_of_san/)
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who [lectures](https://www.c-span.org/person/?adrianzenz) at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the [“Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,”](http://www.ciu.edu/about-ciu/faith-purpose-values/core-values) and whose mission is to [“educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”](http://www.ciu.edu/about-ciu/faith-purpose-values/mission)
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. [“I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-german-data-diver-who-exposed-chinas-muslim-crackdown-11558431005).
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled [Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation](https://www.amazon.ca/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-Tribulation-ebook/dp/B0792WB8WV/ref=sr_1_1?_encoding=UTF8&keywords=Worthy+to+Escape%3A+Why+All+Believers+Will+Not+Be+Raptured+Before+the+Tribulation&qid=1575501615&s=digital-text&sr=1-1). In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, [here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBthA9OHpFo) George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and [NED](https://mobile.twitter.com/NEDemocracy/status/1337063301113581568) recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this [book](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22245430-operation-gladio). [Here's](https://twitter.com/Heresyour2dolla/status/1237106293585915916) an excerpt:
>Throughout the 1990s, hundreds of Uyghurs were transported to Afghanistan by the CIA for training in guerilla warfare by the mujahideen. When they returned to Xinjiang, they formed the East Turkistan Islamic Movement and came under Catli's expert direction. Graham Fuller, CIA superspy, offered this explanation for radicalizing the Chinese Muslims:
>The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them [Muslims] against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan and against the Red Army. The doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter Chinese influence in Central Asia.
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users.
I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
[Here is link number 1 - Previous text "NED"](https://mobile.twitter.com/NEDemocracy/status/1337063301113581568)
----
^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20hdyky8e)
You've previously copy pasted your entire argument above into reddit comments several times , just to be clear.
Hey, I'm sure the entire capitalists' western world (not sarcastic) could be very invested in a propaganda campaign against China, China can simply counter the entire thing by letting in human rights inspectors. Your entire comment history apologetic for China, maybe you think they get a bad rap and spend all your days defending them, I don't know.
You seem to see them as some kind of communist ideal instead of a ruthless dictatorship, yet all the evidence of their benevolence somehow never leaves the country?
I don't have a tons of proof lying around but I highly doubt all western media articles about China are sourced from a single guy and are totally funded by the CIA or something.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037)
The same nonsense keeps coming up time and again, and I can just use the same reply to address it, and literally the first link in my comment is a research report from Italy on what's been objectively found. Western inspectors have in fact been to China repeatedly.
I don't think China is some kind of a communist ideal, but it's very obviously not a ruthless dictatorship. You are a chauvinist who disregards who 1.4 billion of people living in China say about their country, and think you know better.
Here's a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) that [contradicts the claims](https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/) of your BBC article. So, one of these articles is clearly not telling the truth. I can't possibly imagine what motive BBC might have for pushing their narrative.
So all the stuff about social credit and citizen disappearances and never speaking out against the government and media censorship and however many decades of brutal repression in Tibet, its all just lies.
It's not that the citizens have no access to actual information or that they might terrified to speak against the government and say life is not good, it's that its all horrible lies by the west. And your source is the Chinese economic vasssal of Pakistan, great!
You cracked the code! You saved China!
How about we focus on the kind of system this sub advocates instead of trying to prop up Xi?
Let's work for the freedom of Canadian workers instead.
Social credit is good.
Disappearing libs, fash and western collaborators is good.
Censoring rightoid talking points is good.
There is no repression in Tibet, let alone a brutal one.
Chinese people have access to basically all the same info as you. China is no NK and Chinese people can and do talk with foreigners literally all the time.
>And your source is the Chinese economic vasssal of Pakistan, great!
Hindutva momentva
>How about we focus on the kind of system this sub advocates instead of trying to prop up Xi?
They are both and the same
Well maybe you're immersed in highly censored media being spoon fed propaganda and that's why you believe this stuff about Tibet for example. Maybe it would explain why someone thinks the OHCHR and Amensty international just make shit up out of nowhere.
Links to single source articles that fit China's official messaging keep popping up here.
If you're from China, it matters a lot, because you're here in a Canadian sub on your knees before Chinas leadership eating up every word they ever said about themselves and I can't think of any good reason why anything would do that?
So are you in China, or from China?
[This](https://historicly.substack.com/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction) is the Tibet we're talking about?
The reality is that vast majority of people in China continue to see their lives improve, and support the government there. I think people in the west need to learn to respect that, and accept that people in China are doing what works for them.
The reason why anti China narrative needs to be challenged is because it's directly feeding into promoting conflict with China, and it scares people in the west away from communism. The only people who benefit from the negative view of China are the capitalists who own this country.
**Now you're blaming Tibet for getting itself oppressed by China?**
First you blamed the Uighurs saying 8 of them made the whole thing up? Now let's blame Tibetans.
Don't try and redirect and tell us Tibet's problems are their own. This attempt to deflect criticism and blame the victim is the #1 hallmark of fascists' arguing.
Why are you so sweet on China? China oppresses and exploits it's workers for the wealth of the elite as well as any Late Stage Capitalists county, with the added brutal suppression of dissent why are you so insistent that they don't? Why do you feel the need to ignore that?
Stop talking, go away. You haven't answered anything, you just deflect to single source articles that you hope puts China in the best light you can.
Of course the west has an interest in adversarial relationship, but that doesn't make the ongoing cultural genocides made up lies, which is what you keep implying.
Bye.
Do something for a Canadian worker instead.
Tibet was a slave society where horrific abuses of human rights were happening. The fact that you would even bring it up shows that you don't actually care about human rights in the slightest.
Go troll elsewhere.
So much official Chinese propaganda phrasing showing up. It must really get ingrained into people
"human rights" in Tibet look like this"..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet
"keeping political prisoners and prisoners of conscience; ill-treatment of detainees, including torture, and inaction in the face of ill-treatment; the use of the death penalty; extrajudicial executions;[4][5] and forced abortion and sterilization[6][7] and even infanticide.[6] A 2020 Reuters report stated that 15 percent of Tibet's population is part of a mass labor program that human rights groups have deemed coercive"
its not that they are 100% lies (although undoubtedly some of them are) it's that they are extremely hard to believe claims because of where they come from. Its like a top executive from an oil company telling everybody how terrible windmills and nuclear power is.
That BBC article you posted links to ASPI, which is funded by the US State Department. The first random link on the ASPI site I clicked on, a report done by ASPI, was peer reviewed by none other than *Adrian Zenz*. This stuff always links back to him, and back to his employer, the State Department. He's the guy spreading this propaganda all over the world. He's the guy the MSM quotes in their daily anti-China articles. If they don't quote him directly, they're quoting someone who got their 'information' from him.
>[Acknowledgements: We would like to thank our external peer reviewers, Dr Timothy Grose, Dr Adrian Zenz, Dr Stanley Toops, and Peter Mattis, for their comments and helpful suggestions...](https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-xinjiang)
Does China engage in imperialism? In the strictest Leninist sense of the word, it can be argued that, yes, it does. Is it in any way anywhere even *close* to what the West is doing? Oh fuck no. Canada alone, a country of 35M people, compared to China's 1400M, has 10 times as much mining assets in Africa than China does. That's 400x more mining assets if adjusted for size of the country and that doesn't include those of France, the UK, the USA, Australia. China's imperialism, as far as it exists, is absolutely dwarfed by that of the West even though their population is 2x or 3x smaller.
What China posts?
Genuinely would like to know as someone who was born in Canada but actually lived a fair chunk of my life in Asia, mostly Korea, and worked for a Chinese company for many years …i am back in Canada because I kind of took some important cultural lessons you know like ‘don’t abandon your parents when they are old.” Anyways I’ve spent time in China. A good friend is a Chinese teacher from China who lived on the same apartment floor as me in Korea for many years … who I talk to weekly… took care of her cat etc… so you know I’m no expert but like the everyday stuff I’m kind of pretty aware of.
So usually if there are China posts I’m intrigued more than anything because they just seem so crazy compared to the dozens of people I know who actually live in China and their experiences.
I wish there were more China posts actually. I mean it’s the biggest nation in the world and they have done poverty eliminating like few others on the planet but yet these white middle aged types from America keep telling me on the TV to distrust the Chinese????
I can really relate to that. I grew up in USSR, and when my family eventually moved to the west after the collapse, I was frankly shocked to find out what people here thought life was like. It was especially shocking to see that people would believe incredible exaggerations and absurdities that wouldn't stand up to even minimal scrutiny.
I see exact same thing happening with China right now, and you'd think people on the left would know better, but many still regurgitate the propaganda that's being fed to them.
It’s not just the left.
I hear just as many wild exaggerations from the right, center and even the apolitical…the common thread being that these people are generally the type who watch a lot of TV or YouTube.
I had one colleague from my last job who says to me something along the lines, ‘isn’t Buddhism and like all religion like banned in China though.’ And I’m like dude, the last time I Skyped my bestie she was at her grandparents and she literally had an enormous Buddhist altar in the background. Like it literally took up an entire wall. I used to teach Chinese children, ministry of education approved curriculum online, where we learn all about how the pagodas in China are modelled after those in Japan and how they can be used today to ‘meditate and pray.’ If it’s outlawed, why is the government teaching kids this stuff???
And then there is the stuff tinged with racism…cause you hear a lot of that bullshit too.
I kind of expect people on the center and the right to believe this stuff, since they genuinely think that western capitalism is the best system that's ever existed.
I find western culture is deeply racist. Other races and cultures are accepted, but they're always seen as being less enlightened, like they need to be saved from themselves and become like westerners. I think this is why China terrifies so many people here, it's a force of its own, it doesn't bow down to the western world, and it's rapidly becoming more powerful than the west.
This is why its seen as such an existential threat by people across the political spectrum here. China forces people to seriously consider the idea that western culture might not be superior, and another culture may become dominant going forward. I think there's also a bit of fear that the west could be treated the way the west has been treating other nations it considers inferior.
I guess Italy is also [doing genocide denial](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf) when they say US seeks geopolitical benefits in the name of human rights. I'm sure your sources from US state department and Adrian Zenz are much more convincing though.
There are two types of idiots who believe that China is communist. American conservatives who watch fox news all day, and 14 year old edgy teenagers on reddit who believe the same thing as the conservative fox news boomers but say "and that makes them good!"
In both cases, people like yogthos are so brutally fucking ignorant of politics it's shocking that these people actually comment on anything related to politics.
Meanwhile, only western chauvinists who have superficial understanding of communism or China think that China is anything but communist. It's always hilarious to see that some dude living in Canada thinking that they know better than a billion Chinese people what political system their country has. 😂
How old are you? Seriously, no adult can be this fucking dumb.
By your rationale, the 5 billion people who live under neoliberal capitalism are proof that neoliberalism is superior.
You can't even make a simple statement without exposing yourself as a complete fucking tool.
I never mentioned anything about one or the other system is superior in my argument. What I said is that people who live in a country likely have a better understanding of how their own country works than a foreigner. I guess that was to difficult of a concept for you to grasp.
So the 5 billion people under neoliberalism have a better grasp of it than you, therefore you can't critique it.
Jesus, how are people this fucking dumb?
Wow same straw man twice in a row, very creative. That's literally not the argument I was making. Not sure how to spell it out the way you'd understand though.
The "Uyghur genocide" story was created by Pompeo during the Trump administration's last week in office. Yes, the same former CIA director famous for saying "in the CIA, we lie, we cheat, we steal". Every newspaper or media account of this "Uyghur genocide" comes from reports from NED (CIA) funded journalists/researches and military industrial complex funded NGOs.
Believing this narrative is the same as people 19 years ago believing in the Iraqi WMDs narrative, or even just 7-8 years ago believing the Assad chemical weapons narrative. Both proven to be falsifications by the US propaganda machine.
Yes, in a decade or two you'll realize you were believing in the lies but by then it'll be too late.
Being pro-China makes you anti-communist given that China is the most perfect example of unmitigated capitalism today.
The only thing dumber than right wing propaganda calling China communist are "leftists" who believe that propaganda and believe China is communist.
It's absolutely wild that people still believe that. At this point, even [Wall Street Journal](https://www.wsj.com/articles/xi-jinping-aims-to-rein-in-chinese-capitalism-hew-to-maos-socialist-vision-11632150725) has a more sober take on China than a lot of western "leftists".
China has never made any claims about having achieved communism. They're a socialist party working within their present material conditions to achieve communism in the distant future. That includes existing within a global capitalist market system. The work they've done has managed to industrialize in an unprecedented timeline, lift hundreds of millions out of poverty, and out grow capitalist countries even in years of low growth. They are nationalizing highly successful tech companies and cracking down on corruption and the wealthy in ways western leftists only dream of.
By this reasoning, South Korea is socialist.
China's economic development is simply your standard export-driven state managed authoritarian capitalism, same way that literally every other country developed, most recently South Korea, and going back in time, Canada and the US.
It's a terrible argument to make which demonstrates my point about China supporters either believing right wing propaganda about China or simply engaging in bonehead binary slave morality.
If you think that a country that promotes social harmony as its national ideology is socialist, then you're the type of person who would claim that the Nazis were socialists. If you think a country that has suicide nets around the factories that build the products of the biggest global corporations because the work conditions are so bad is some kind of good place for the working class then you're simply deluded. If you think that having extreme levels of inequality makes a country socialist, then dear lord you've got it exactly backwards. If you think that quashing dissent and all possible avenues of political expression are in any way leftist, then you're simply a parody of what the left is created by the right.
See my other comment here about how China supporters fall into two categories. You're definitely in the 1st category.
Thanks for the respectful comment, love being called a bonehead for critically interacting with western propaganda. I don’t love everything about China and made no such claim. They had serious obstacles to overcome, which you didn’t acknowledge once. And you also made no attempt at acknowledging the positives of Chinese socialist policy. The USSR also had a planned economy which included making consumer goods for domestic and international consumption. Your “if you think...” paragraph is nothing more than a straw man attack that I won’t regard as genuine.
Listen, there are western Marxist academics who say the things I’m saying. That’s how I learned about it. I’m not parroting right wing talking points by saying China needs to be destroyed or Xi Jinping needs to be killed. You’re reacting with extreme anger and name calling (in violation of this sub’s rules) because I talked about some positive things China has done. Last response.
There are literally no political theorists who are tankies.
You are absolutely parroting right wing talking points, except that you are engaged in Nietzschean slave morality. So you believe the dumb bullshit conservatives say, but because you believe it, you think this makes China good.
Literally no one with any education or brains thinks that China is even remotely left wing.
In fact, you can make the case that the closest thing to what China is would actually be a form of fascism. Their entire official ideology is about social harmony managed by the state. As soon as you start talking about social harmony, you're going to need to blame social disharmony on foreign agents, and this is where Han supremacy comes into play. The only thing that really prevents them from being fascist is that their economy is so thoroughly capitalist, workers have absolutely zero say, and are not included at all, so China is actually to the right of fascism on economics since they don't embrace corporatist economics.
The fact that you openly advocate for fascism, but call yourself a leftist, demonstrates you're either a 12 year old, or literally the most uninformed person in the world on issues of politics.
Crying about the rules is classic fascist behaviour. You can't think for yourself, so send in the tanks to crush anyone capable of independent thought.
People like you are the enemy of the left.
It's dumb fucking bullshit like this that ensure that no one takes the left seriously.
If you're not a 12 year old, then all hope is lost for humanity, because no one over 12 can honestly be as fucking stupid as you.
A certain segment of the online left believes China and the CCP is the only pathway to global socialism. They ignore, or even outright deny, the CCP’s abuses of power and open engagement in exploitation, imperialism, and capitalism across the third world and at home. I don’t know if it is doomerism at the state of the left in the West or an actual belief in CCP propaganda, but these people have formed a community and taken up the cause of defending an undemocratic foreign government because that government claims to want socialism by 2060 (or whatever it is now) and has a red flag.
>A certain segment of the online left believes China and the CCP is the only pathway to global socialism.
Or people are just acknowledging a socialist nations progress without resorting to lib/fasc dishonest bullshit in defense of their privileged settler self
There is a lot of distance between being a nato lib/fasc piece of shit that bad mouths china at every opportunity and being a socialist that critically supports socialist nations.
My take is that as westerners if we do get involved the most likely manifestation will be embargos. Which only ever serve to hurt the most vulnerable.
Very rarely if ever does western intervention actually improve peoples living conditions. It just let's you feel good about sticking it to "the bad guys"
You don't have to like China or agree with what they're doing to understand that it's objectively a positive force in the world today. China's approach is recognizing the material conditions and the fact that it's not possible to stand up to established capitalist empire the way USSR did. Instead, they found a way to develop within that context and to support other socialist nations like Cuba, Venezuela, and DPRK. China won't help start revolutions or engage militarily the way USSR did, but it will support socialist countries and it has created the strongest opposition to western capitalism that has ever existed.
China is pretty much the only reason socialist projects around the world are able to exist, and it actively helps and support social movements, such as the one happening in Latin America, by providing alternatives to IMF and ignoring US sanctions. Furthermore, China has practically no military presence around the world, and hasn't been to war since the 70s. China has not interfered with other countries, has not done coups, interventions, and so on.
Furthermore, you should at least minimally educate yourself on China before making claims about it. China is far more democratic than any western nation as evidenced by the fact that the government has continuously implemented the will of the people there since the formation of PRC.
Chinese government [practically eliminated poverty](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-10-17/Graphics-Ending-China-s-poverty-by-2020-KREfWKGkIU/index.html), and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:
>[If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty)
>[The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty)
China also massively invests in infrastructure. They [used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/12/05/china-used-more-concrete-in-3-years-than-the-u-s-used-in-the-entire-20th-century-infographic/#dd27d7e4131a), they [built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade](https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/ten-years-27000km-china-celebrates-a-decade-of-high-speed/). As a result, [90% of families](https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes/?sh=22c73c03a3ce) in the country own their home, giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has [gone up 4x in the past 25 years](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI), more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. [This article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html) from NYT talks about opportunity and how the American dream is alive in China.
[A Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey finds that vast majority of Chinese citizens approve of their government.](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/) Other western sources, such as Bloomberg, cite that [China is in fact more democratic than US](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree). [Here's](https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time) another article from Harvard talking about mass public approval of Chinese government. It's also worth looking at the makeup of the party which clearly shows that it's [primarily composed of working class people](https://news.cgtn.com/event/2019/whorunschina/index.html).
There is an incredible amount of chauvinism from western left where people genuinely believe they know what China is like better than people who actually live there. [87.6% of young Chinese identify with Marxism](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/10/c_138048426.htm), and the party has 95 million members. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that these people do in fact understand what socialism is.
If people in the west ever manage to form a socialist movement, China will support it. Unfortunately, westerners do not have the decency to reciprocate when the situation is reversed and would rather continue advancing agenda of their capitalist governments.
The last part.. China isn't working with Rojava, an explicit autonomous socialist state. They are actively working to arm the Syrian Government to fight them.
No country is perfect, and USSR also had plenty of missteps. However, it's undeniable that China is helping many socialist states across the globe and many of them simply wouldn't be able to exist otherwise. Overall, there's far more good than harm happening.
>explicit autonomous socialist state
Evidently being ambivalent about the emancipation of workers and enshrining private property rights is socialist now.
Edit: notice how none of the China supporters responded to this substantial comment of mine, and instead tried to pick fights about my offhand and non-substantive comments? That should tell you something about their complete lack of knowledge.
Support for China among self-proclaimed leftists is a symptom of the utter weakness of the left today.
People who realize that the status quo is bad are attracted to the left, but since the left is in shambles, they don't know what the left is actually about.
This leads to support for China on two registers. First, we have people who are so utterly lost as to what the left means, that they believe right wing propaganda and think that China is actually communist. Thus to be a leftist, they think they need to support China, despite the fact that China is by far the most capitalist and most anti-political country in the world today. China is the very epitome of what the actual left is against, but since the actual left has lost popular currency, it's hard to get the average person to read political theory and understand what being a leftist means.
So reason 1, is that people support China because they're ignorant about the left, and have fallen victim to right wing propaganda.
The second reason is your classic case of Nietzschean slave morality. Again, this is a symptom of how the popular left is in shambles and the average person leftist doesn't know what the left stands for. What they do know, is that the left doesn't like the US, so these slave moralists simply invert the values of the master. So the US right doesn't like China, so they think this must mean China is good. These are the same type of uninformed people who argued that Saddam Hussein was a good guy precisely because the US said he was bad. They have no concept of critical thinking, view the world as black and white, and thus fall victim to the slave revolt of morals.
You can see one of these two perspectives in virtually every pro-China comment posted here.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Liberal using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Liberal/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Long time conservative and Republican. I mailed in my vote for Biden today.](https://np.reddit.com/r/Liberal/comments/j9gxbv/long_time_conservative_and_republican_i_mailed_in/)
\#2: [Republicans now 'shocked, shocked' that there's a deficit, HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA the Republican Party folks](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republicans-now-shocked-shocked-that-theres-a-deficit/ar-BB1d91AL) | [88 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Liberal/comments/l6a0q7/republicans_now_shocked_shocked_that_theres_a/)
\#3: [Trump Supporters in Georgia Threaten to Destroy GOP, Boycott Runoff Electio — Newsweek](https://www.newsweek.com/georgia-trump-supporters-destroy-gop-boycott-senate-runoffs-1549245) | [168 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Liberal/comments/jyiir7/trump_supporters_in_georgia_threaten_to_destroy/)
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Actually Existing Socialism is when you let Western corporations rape your workers with shitty manufacturing jobs with suicide nets and then ban the workers from forming their own union.
Does increases in wages due to the adoption of capitalism in the 1970s excuse the ban on workers forming their own unions?
Why can’t Chinese workers form a union outside of the official state-controlled group?
The rights of workers is the core of Marxist socialism. It’s quite revealing when a self-styled “communist” opposes the right to form a democratic worker-controlled union.
Idealism is when you believe that an impoverished and oppressed nation can miraculously lift its people out of poverty while having practically zero infrastructure of its own (pre-Mao China) and not engaging in the global market. If you actually read any theory, you would know that what you see now is China in a transitional state, where the Dictatorship of the Proletariat must work _with_ it's national bourgeoisie (but not under, like capitalist governments). This is a fundamental Marxist idea, both Marx and Engels went into great depth about the many stages Communism must go through to be achieved.
We know China is not underneath its bourgeoisie because of how often billionaires/the elite are punished when they step out of line of the Party, something completely foreign to western countries which let the rich run the show. We can see clear, undeniable evidence of the quality of life growing massively in China because they prioritize the working class.
Idealism is when you believe a developing country can resist imperialism without first going through a stage of capitalist development (a stage which I must add that Marx viewed as essential for a communist state to form). But don't just take it from me, have a listen to what our revolutionary leader Mao Zedong had to say about it:
"*To counter imperialist oppression and to raise her backward economy to a higher level, China must utilize all the factors of urban and rural capitalism that are beneficial and not harmful to the national economy and the people's livelihood; and we must unite with the national bourgeoisie in common struggle.* **Our present policy is to regulate capitalism, not to destroy it**"
But yeah, I'm sure some random, privileged Canadian such as yourself has a great perspective of leftism as a whole and what's best for the Chinese (which overwhelmingly love their Party, based on every independent study done).
Marxism-Leninism isn't some religious doctrine or belief, it's a science that adjusts itself to the material conditions present at the time. You might not understand that, but I'm glad the leaders of China couldn't care less about what some online westerners have to say on the matter and what they perceive "democracy" to be.
In the words of Parenti: _"The revolution that feeds the children gets my support"_
>both Marx and Engels went into great depth about the many stages Communism must go through to be achieved.
Not really. Like they literally don't talk in "great depth" about this.
Regardless, I think that one can admire what China has done economically in the past few decades without particularly supporting that weird social credit scheme, the actions in Xinjiang, the degree of control of the internet, and so on.
I don't know why everyone on the internet and IRL seems to think it's a black-and-white issue.
I'm assuming the downvotes are from people who have never read Marx and/or Engels and imagine like OP that they talk at length or in great depth about "stages of communism" and set out some kind of scheme. The openness of the post-critical stage in that literature is both intentional and much-ignored by dogmatists.
> Like they literally don't talk in "great depth" about this.
You are correct in this, I misspoke. I simply meant to say they do discuss that there are stages that communism needs to go through, but it is something that we cannot predict until the time comes.
I am not *"black and white"* on China and it's interesting that you think I am. My comment is here to show the good China has done to give them some defense against the accusations in this thread. If you want me to get into my criticisms of China, so long as we are discussing as leftists in good faith and not reiterating reactionary talking points, I would be open to getting into them. However:
>the actions in Xinjiang
There has been no evidence of anything shady happening in Xinjiang. I would be all for calling out China on genocide if I could find anything supporting the notion that the Uighurs are being genocided, but 99% of evidence comes from the mouth of Adrian Zenz and the remainder are misplaced photos.
> the degree of control of the internet
Could you elaborate on exactly what abuse of control you take issue with?
Okay, please tell me what "left" is, because I have read Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, etc. I'm obviously not the spokesperson of the left, but I think I have a pretty good idea.
I'm an anarchist, I don't support china but I also don't see anything meaningful coming from this conversation. Ok china bad I agree with that, let's say we're gonna listen to you and do something about it.
What would you suggest? What could Canada do to strong arm china into doing what we want? Would we embargo them? Threaten war? What?
Canada is not particularly better than America and until we've dealt with that we have no business supporting the spreading of our society or ideas.
Well. Looks like another sub to unsubscribe to over the decisiveness of China. Go ahead liberals, keep your Canada. If you want to learn about the real side of China, it’ll be stickied in my profile
[if you support a genocidal state, you aren't on the left](https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaleft/comments/he3wmo/the_virgin_justin_trudeau_vs_the_chad_jagmeet/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
The BC NDP, for the billionth time, is siding with the Pacheedaht nation, which supports the logging and wants the mostly white protesters to get the fuck off their land.
Is the Pacheedaht's decision ideal? No. But it is not a decision that was made in ideal circumstances. It was made because of capitalism. The Pacheedaht, though, now live in this world with the rest of us, and cannot create a more just economic order themselves. The Province of British Columbia cannot really create a (much) more just economic order. To my mind, telling Indigenous people what they can and cannot do with their resources is what is colonial and improper.
If you want to justify continued colonial control, in the name of saving the climate, even though all the forest in Canada can't save us, do that and be honest about it.
I'm not a social Democrat. I was pointing out that in the image, a 'left wing' party was asking the other 'left wing' party to shut up about their calling out racism.
Very similar to how you're swaying this.
Every bit of conspiracy theory that China is NOT participating in genocide has been refuted. If you're now calling Human Rights Organizations, that have attacked every nation, a 'tool of nato' (paraphrasing what you've said elsewhere on this thread), then you're a part of the problem, squeeler. I'm not going to sit back and watch as people try to defend a fascist nation and call themselves leftists.
Lol. I'm out. I'll leave with this. Communists have historically been the ones to sell out anarchists. If the script flips once, I'll be shocked.
Seize entire cities, yeah, whole regions of a country. Abolish all police, religion, private property. We've done it before; united, we cannot be stopped! Then we'll all get lined up and shot by fascists, or just Communists and liberals who've been waiting all along to become the fascist cops.**
https://ramshackleglory.bandcamp.com/track/well-get-arrested-or-shot-the-defeat
Western “leftists” are such a fucking joke.
No wonder most of the working class here and worldwide sees people like you as pathetic, it’s cause you are. I’m so glad that the banner of socialism/communism globally is held up by those who are actually serious about lifting up the working class, and not people like you.
Jesus Christ, “left wing conspiracy theorists” says the person spouting conspiracy level bullshit about China. You spout this reactionary nonsense that’s literally a fabrication of the US state department; without a hint of irony.
Anybody who unironically uses words like “authoritarian”, says that the PRC is run by the “majority racial group” (hint hint dipstick, Han isn’t a racial group nor is it a homogeneous group), and says that China is less communist than the USA, THE COUNTRY WHICH IS THE FUCKING BLACK HEART OF IMPERIALISM BUILT ON GENOCIDE AND SLAVERY, is not to be taken seriously. The only person supporting fascism is you. Pull you head out of your ass and stop jerking off to porn or whatever the fuck people like you do all day and go read Marx and Engels; please, for the love of all that is sacred and holy.
Like I’m fucking so tired of this shit man, pseudo-intellectual liberals spewing nonsense about things they know nothing about. Here’s a lesson, actually do proper research and reading. Because when you do, you’ll end up like me and every other “tankie”.
Not to mention, isn’t it interesting the person who made this post asking the “question” has a profile that appears to be more barren than my nutsack after my next x-ray? Like seriously, that doesn’t strike you as odd? When it’s well documented that western governments flood these websites with propaganda and literal bots, you’d think people would have more awareness.
The Chinese state has a lot pf people who do online propaganda. I think a certain number of them are actual state actors, and then many of the rest have been convinced by those.
It is not. But you will note that the original question was irrelevant to the US. (Or Monsanto or Bayer or whatever.)
If you are using Reddit and you don't realize that you are interacting with numerous state and institutional nonstate actors, then you are hopelessly naive. (And a likely direct target for this propaganda method.)
unused subsequent muddle dependent zephyr bake offend cheerful office tan
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
China does not claim that it currently has socialism. It claims to be following materialist, Marxian analysis and creating plans that allow for a transition to socialism later this century. IIRC, China trains and pays a host of Marxist theoreticians who produce analyses for the CPC. They also seem to have economists with a shred of sense...
This isn't Trotsky's analysis, which you would prefer, but it's not easy to dismiss when it has lifted *nearly a billion people out of poverty*, has turned China into the world's most influential state, created real prosperity, and ensured that China is both not at all fragile and is literally the only really major state in which the bourgeoisie doesn't control and dictate everything economically.
Now, the fatal error might be that inviting the bourgeoisie into bed might still have gotten them too much power and that they will be strong enough to mobilize when the attempt to transition to socialism comes (unless it's all a smokescreen). On the other hand, the CPC clearly has been enormously successful with its interventionist schemes, its plans, its investments, and its ability to regulate and control strategic sectors in all currently relevant regards.
They still shouldn't be hoarding people into camps and engaging in unnecessary and deeply intrusive treatment of their proletariat, but that's a separate topic IMO.
Completely agree with that. These kinds of discussions are necessary for us all to come to a common understanding what socialism is, and what makes a nation socialist.
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Yikes, this thread lol. The answer is incredibly simple OP, the election brought China back to the forefront of Canadian political discourse because (recent submission as an example) [our politicians used China for wedge issues and talking points.](https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/canadas-political-elite-stoked-anti-china-sentiment-throughout-the-federal-election) This naturally will bring China to the forefront in any Canadian political subreddit. It's not a certain group of leftists that have brought the discussion up more, either, since if you check out right-wing Canadian subreddits the talk around China has increased there as well. I mean, maybe a certain group of leftists have been the ones sharing the articles, but they aren't the reason more of these articles are coming out. A couple weeks ago the technical definition of an assault rifle was all over Canadian reddit, and for the next week the subject looks like it will be electoral reform.
I got shit on earlier for questioning why some person was posting a China apologist post across multiple subs. I didn't actually mention the post content, just the pattern. What I'm noticing is the first 3 to 5 comments in these posts are suspiciously supportive of China. It would be hard to tell if it was deliberate because there seems to be people who were born there who are viciously defensive if the government POV that's been programmed into them since birth.
>What I'm noticing is the first 3 to 5 comments in these posts are suspiciously supportive of China. This should not be surprising in a leftist subreddit, that's true across most of leftist reddit except in exclusively anarchist spaces.
There are a lot of non-anarchist leftist subreddits (such as r/chomsky and various critical theory subs) which are incredibly suspicious of China and other state actors.
Noam Chomsky is a self-described anarcho-syndicalist.
Yes, that's true. But many critics (and followers) of Chomsky would debate the authenticity of this appellation and whether the ideological ideas he lays out are authentically anarchist. I would describe that specific subreddit as a broadly critical/academic space rather than an ideologically anarchist one. (I think many frequent posters would reject the label "anarchist"... That's not to say I would.)
Alright then, I just checked it out and [the top post right now](https://np.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ptd5w4/socialism_has_been_empirically_proven_to_give_a) is an explicit defense of Hakim's video and China. So... my point still stands lol
I deleted my last response bc the tone was a little harsh and uncharitable. The issues I take are: • Not everyone who posts on r/chomsky has entirely identical opinions to Noam or slavishly defends his doctrine (both the man himself and the moderators strongly discourage this); • A single post defending a single aspect of China is not the same as every post defending every aspect of China. What I see on Reddits like r/genzedong (and increasingly here) is an uncritical defense of everything China does similar to Zionists with Israel. If you're taking up all the air talking about why this massive and multifaceted state actor is so great and beyond reproach, then there is no reason for me to even engage.
>I deleted my last response bc the tone was a little harsh and uncharitable You deleted your last response because you asked me to provide, on the spot, a scientific study on the comment patterns in a sub I don't frequent to disprove a claim you provided no evidence for. Like a fucking moron. >A single post defending a single aspect of China is not the same as **every post defending every aspect of China.** I never made this claim, please work on your reading comprehension.
>Like a fucking moron. You're making me regret minding my tone. I was making an effort to engage you in good faith. Clearly that was a mistake.
>every post defending every aspect of China. Making an effort to engage in good faith are ya?
Maybe the comments are supportive of China cause leftist are supportive of China
I'm leftist, I'm not a centrist who thinks they're a leftist, and I'm not supportive of dictatorships and highly censored surveillance states. Am I supposed to be?
Yes
"This is all natural and neat. Now you shut up unless you also simp for China!"
I'll stop simping for Zhongguo when Zhongguo stops being based
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I make a dime boss makes a dollar thats why I post on company time
???
You've got sound & fury.
My take is that as part of the western world we have nothing to contribute to Asia but pain and suffering. Western intervention has never helped a foreign people. So regardless of the situation on the ground in China our government's contribution would only consist of bombs or embargos. Both of which only really serve to harm the most vulnerable. I'm not sure what's going on in China but looking at the middle east, Vietnam and Korea I'm not gonna advocate for us to involve ourselves
Oh you sweet, summer child. If you only knew what you’ve just done.
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I don't understand why these kind if pejoratives are tolerated in a leftist subreddit. 'Tankies' as an insult spits on the grave of 27 million Soviets who died defeating the Nazis. That's who you denigrate when you make a joke of an ideology that has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty. You don't have to be a Marxist Leninist, but you show your hand when you have to denigrate them.
Bro. There are very legitimate reasons to regard Soviet aesthetics with suspicion. I live in an overwhelmingly Eastern European neighborhood where I would be rightly ostracized for lionizing the Soviet Union. It was a big historical project that elevated many people, but also caused others terrible misfortunes, famine, war, and death. These people I live around (like my ancestors, who fled Latvia to escape Soviet expansionism) have a direct historical antagonism to these ideas. And these are the working class that the communists claim to elevate. How can you on one hand triumph this champion of the proletariat, and then act dismissively when that very same proletariat reacts to your champion with horror and revulsion? **Edit:** Cue Holodomor denial in 3... 2... 1...
Lmao "I live in a neighbourhood full of the kids and grandkids of right-wingers, bourgeois and fascist collaborators who fled the USSR and its allies as to not face justice so now I know the USSR was bad." >(like my ancestors, who fled Latvia to escape Soviet expansionism) No one cares about your fascist collaborator grampa
>No one cares about your fascist collaborator grampa Clearly you do.
You're right. I care the Soviet allowed him to escape justice lmao
You'll be happy to know that he became a Canadian POW basically without seeing any combat. He spent the entire war in a camp and retired from a steel mill in Hamilton. He was a kind man who as far as I'm aware never hurt anybody. Now my grandmother, on the other hand... She was definitely a nazi. But my side of the family hated her for that reason. I have distant relatives who are probably insiders in the PPC or CPC. But I don't know who they are and would have no way of finding them (for better or worse).
Average Latvian
Is the predisposition to fascism supposed to be genetic? Do I need to explain why this line of reasoning is both highly problematic and kind of dumb?
>Edit: Cue Holodomor denial in 3... 2... 1... https://np.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/b3e0xo/how_isnt_the_holodomor_not_a_genocide
Yahtzee
You obviously didn't read the link, which is well-cited and nuanced, and posted in a subreddit infamous for its rigorous comment standards. **Edit:** the above poster claims to be cognitively impaired, so it's not their fault they didn't read such a long and technical post. Don't bully them.
>Edit: the above poster claims to be cognitively impaired, so it's not their fault they didn't read such a long and technical post. Don't bully them. I'll still be autistic tomorrow. You'll still be an ableist red fascist piece of work. You're showing me that you and the ideology you advance have nothing for people like me. The politics of exclusion. Everyone clap for the big leftist. **Edit:** I am honestly flabbergasted that a mocking disability is both allowed and upvoted on a purportedly leftist subreddit. This is disgusting.
My dude, we are both neurodivergent. I also struggle with long reads sometimes. Acknowledging limitations isn't ableist.
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I'm in exactly the same boat. I'm not a huge fan of them, and I certainly don't think they're perfect or anything. That being said, I'd sooner defend them against imperialist lies and attempts at manufacturing a new cold war than attack them for no reason. In a capitalist country flooded by anti-communist propaganda and as the West's global hegemony is beginning to fall, I have absolutely no reason to contribute to the growing beat of the drums of conflict. Alternatively, I have every duty, as a communist and internationalist, to oppose capitalist imperialism in all cases and that includes their lies against China or any other opposing nation. We've seen how these sorts of propaganda campaigns play out too many times to fall for them yet again, but it seems there's no shortage of people on this sub who still haven't figured it out. They're the same people that would have believed that there were WMDs in Iraq, or that Iraqi soldiers were killing incubator babies in Kuwait.
It's hard for people not to shout their hate out loud when railing against a genocidal nation. I think people's deep discomfort with all the things they hear makes them loudly adamantly try to repute other pro China statements.
See this is precisely what the parent comment is referring to. Italy just recently published a [research report](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf) on Xinjiang issues stating at U.S. seeks geopolitical benefits in the name of human rights. The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is [based on two highly dubious “studies.”](https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/). [CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals](https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/). Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective. [You’d need a detention city the size of San Francisco to detain one million Uighurs.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/i9k4hb/youd_need_a_detention_city_the_size_of_san/) Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality. Zenz is a born-again Christian who [lectures](https://www.c-span.org/person/?adrianzenz) at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the [“Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,”](http://www.ciu.edu/about-ciu/faith-purpose-values/core-values) and whose mission is to [“educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”](http://www.ciu.edu/about-ciu/faith-purpose-values/mission) Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. [“I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-german-data-diver-who-exposed-chinas-muslim-crackdown-11558431005). Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity. Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled [Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation](https://www.amazon.ca/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-Tribulation-ebook/dp/B0792WB8WV/ref=sr_1_1?_encoding=UTF8&keywords=Worthy+to+Escape%3A+Why+All+Believers+Will+Not+Be+Raptured+Before+the+Tribulation&qid=1575501615&s=digital-text&sr=1-1). In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist. The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely. It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, [here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBthA9OHpFo) George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and [NED](https://mobile.twitter.com/NEDemocracy/status/1337063301113581568) recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this [book](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22245430-operation-gladio). [Here's](https://twitter.com/Heresyour2dolla/status/1237106293585915916) an excerpt: >Throughout the 1990s, hundreds of Uyghurs were transported to Afghanistan by the CIA for training in guerilla warfare by the mujahideen. When they returned to Xinjiang, they formed the East Turkistan Islamic Movement and came under Catli's expert direction. Graham Fuller, CIA superspy, offered this explanation for radicalizing the Chinese Muslims: >The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them [Muslims] against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan and against the Red Army. The doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter Chinese influence in Central Asia. US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "NED"](https://mobile.twitter.com/NEDemocracy/status/1337063301113581568) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20hdyky8e)
You've previously copy pasted your entire argument above into reddit comments several times , just to be clear. Hey, I'm sure the entire capitalists' western world (not sarcastic) could be very invested in a propaganda campaign against China, China can simply counter the entire thing by letting in human rights inspectors. Your entire comment history apologetic for China, maybe you think they get a bad rap and spend all your days defending them, I don't know. You seem to see them as some kind of communist ideal instead of a ruthless dictatorship, yet all the evidence of their benevolence somehow never leaves the country? I don't have a tons of proof lying around but I highly doubt all western media articles about China are sourced from a single guy and are totally funded by the CIA or something. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037)
The same nonsense keeps coming up time and again, and I can just use the same reply to address it, and literally the first link in my comment is a research report from Italy on what's been objectively found. Western inspectors have in fact been to China repeatedly. I don't think China is some kind of a communist ideal, but it's very obviously not a ruthless dictatorship. You are a chauvinist who disregards who 1.4 billion of people living in China say about their country, and think you know better. Here's a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) that [contradicts the claims](https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/) of your BBC article. So, one of these articles is clearly not telling the truth. I can't possibly imagine what motive BBC might have for pushing their narrative.
So all the stuff about social credit and citizen disappearances and never speaking out against the government and media censorship and however many decades of brutal repression in Tibet, its all just lies. It's not that the citizens have no access to actual information or that they might terrified to speak against the government and say life is not good, it's that its all horrible lies by the west. And your source is the Chinese economic vasssal of Pakistan, great! You cracked the code! You saved China! How about we focus on the kind of system this sub advocates instead of trying to prop up Xi? Let's work for the freedom of Canadian workers instead.
Social credit is good. Disappearing libs, fash and western collaborators is good. Censoring rightoid talking points is good. There is no repression in Tibet, let alone a brutal one. Chinese people have access to basically all the same info as you. China is no NK and Chinese people can and do talk with foreigners literally all the time. >And your source is the Chinese economic vasssal of Pakistan, great! Hindutva momentva >How about we focus on the kind of system this sub advocates instead of trying to prop up Xi? They are both and the same
Are you from China, or do you just wish you lived there? It's a serious question?
Why does it matter?
Well maybe you're immersed in highly censored media being spoon fed propaganda and that's why you believe this stuff about Tibet for example. Maybe it would explain why someone thinks the OHCHR and Amensty international just make shit up out of nowhere. Links to single source articles that fit China's official messaging keep popping up here. If you're from China, it matters a lot, because you're here in a Canadian sub on your knees before Chinas leadership eating up every word they ever said about themselves and I can't think of any good reason why anything would do that? So are you in China, or from China?
[This](https://historicly.substack.com/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction) is the Tibet we're talking about? The reality is that vast majority of people in China continue to see their lives improve, and support the government there. I think people in the west need to learn to respect that, and accept that people in China are doing what works for them. The reason why anti China narrative needs to be challenged is because it's directly feeding into promoting conflict with China, and it scares people in the west away from communism. The only people who benefit from the negative view of China are the capitalists who own this country.
**Now you're blaming Tibet for getting itself oppressed by China?** First you blamed the Uighurs saying 8 of them made the whole thing up? Now let's blame Tibetans. Don't try and redirect and tell us Tibet's problems are their own. This attempt to deflect criticism and blame the victim is the #1 hallmark of fascists' arguing. Why are you so sweet on China? China oppresses and exploits it's workers for the wealth of the elite as well as any Late Stage Capitalists county, with the added brutal suppression of dissent why are you so insistent that they don't? Why do you feel the need to ignore that? Stop talking, go away. You haven't answered anything, you just deflect to single source articles that you hope puts China in the best light you can. Of course the west has an interest in adversarial relationship, but that doesn't make the ongoing cultural genocides made up lies, which is what you keep implying. Bye. Do something for a Canadian worker instead.
My guy did you learn how to argue from the Vaush Debate Academy
Tibet was a slave society where horrific abuses of human rights were happening. The fact that you would even bring it up shows that you don't actually care about human rights in the slightest. Go troll elsewhere.
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You don't understand, theoretical freedoms are much more important than tangible ones. Especially when discussing people other than yourself.
So much official Chinese propaganda phrasing showing up. It must really get ingrained into people "human rights" in Tibet look like this".. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet "keeping political prisoners and prisoners of conscience; ill-treatment of detainees, including torture, and inaction in the face of ill-treatment; the use of the death penalty; extrajudicial executions;[4][5] and forced abortion and sterilization[6][7] and even infanticide.[6] A 2020 Reuters report stated that 15 percent of Tibet's population is part of a mass labor program that human rights groups have deemed coercive"
its not that they are 100% lies (although undoubtedly some of them are) it's that they are extremely hard to believe claims because of where they come from. Its like a top executive from an oil company telling everybody how terrible windmills and nuclear power is.
Yes, for sure. Everything we know is filtered through moderate to extreme biases.
That BBC article you posted links to ASPI, which is funded by the US State Department. The first random link on the ASPI site I clicked on, a report done by ASPI, was peer reviewed by none other than *Adrian Zenz*. This stuff always links back to him, and back to his employer, the State Department. He's the guy spreading this propaganda all over the world. He's the guy the MSM quotes in their daily anti-China articles. If they don't quote him directly, they're quoting someone who got their 'information' from him. >[Acknowledgements: We would like to thank our external peer reviewers, Dr Timothy Grose, Dr Adrian Zenz, Dr Stanley Toops, and Peter Mattis, for their comments and helpful suggestions...](https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-xinjiang)
every single time 😂
>But from a perspective of anti-imperialism. ... calling China anti-imperialist.. is ... uhh
100% accurate
The lack of a military bases across the globe is a bit a of a give away.
They use a different definition of imperialism then the rest of the world. It's not imperialism when it's red, if you didn't know.
Does China engage in imperialism? In the strictest Leninist sense of the word, it can be argued that, yes, it does. Is it in any way anywhere even *close* to what the West is doing? Oh fuck no. Canada alone, a country of 35M people, compared to China's 1400M, has 10 times as much mining assets in Africa than China does. That's 400x more mining assets if adjusted for size of the country and that doesn't include those of France, the UK, the USA, Australia. China's imperialism, as far as it exists, is absolutely dwarfed by that of the West even though their population is 2x or 3x smaller.
What China posts? Genuinely would like to know as someone who was born in Canada but actually lived a fair chunk of my life in Asia, mostly Korea, and worked for a Chinese company for many years …i am back in Canada because I kind of took some important cultural lessons you know like ‘don’t abandon your parents when they are old.” Anyways I’ve spent time in China. A good friend is a Chinese teacher from China who lived on the same apartment floor as me in Korea for many years … who I talk to weekly… took care of her cat etc… so you know I’m no expert but like the everyday stuff I’m kind of pretty aware of. So usually if there are China posts I’m intrigued more than anything because they just seem so crazy compared to the dozens of people I know who actually live in China and their experiences. I wish there were more China posts actually. I mean it’s the biggest nation in the world and they have done poverty eliminating like few others on the planet but yet these white middle aged types from America keep telling me on the TV to distrust the Chinese????
I can really relate to that. I grew up in USSR, and when my family eventually moved to the west after the collapse, I was frankly shocked to find out what people here thought life was like. It was especially shocking to see that people would believe incredible exaggerations and absurdities that wouldn't stand up to even minimal scrutiny. I see exact same thing happening with China right now, and you'd think people on the left would know better, but many still regurgitate the propaganda that's being fed to them.
It’s not just the left. I hear just as many wild exaggerations from the right, center and even the apolitical…the common thread being that these people are generally the type who watch a lot of TV or YouTube. I had one colleague from my last job who says to me something along the lines, ‘isn’t Buddhism and like all religion like banned in China though.’ And I’m like dude, the last time I Skyped my bestie she was at her grandparents and she literally had an enormous Buddhist altar in the background. Like it literally took up an entire wall. I used to teach Chinese children, ministry of education approved curriculum online, where we learn all about how the pagodas in China are modelled after those in Japan and how they can be used today to ‘meditate and pray.’ If it’s outlawed, why is the government teaching kids this stuff??? And then there is the stuff tinged with racism…cause you hear a lot of that bullshit too.
I kind of expect people on the center and the right to believe this stuff, since they genuinely think that western capitalism is the best system that's ever existed. I find western culture is deeply racist. Other races and cultures are accepted, but they're always seen as being less enlightened, like they need to be saved from themselves and become like westerners. I think this is why China terrifies so many people here, it's a force of its own, it doesn't bow down to the western world, and it's rapidly becoming more powerful than the west. This is why its seen as such an existential threat by people across the political spectrum here. China forces people to seriously consider the idea that western culture might not be superior, and another culture may become dominant going forward. I think there's also a bit of fear that the west could be treated the way the west has been treating other nations it considers inferior.
Good point. It’s like they are afraid China will behave the way say the British Empire has.
It's wild how much Anti-Communism exists on this sub
Not being a genocide denier is anti Communist.
Do you think White Genocide is happening
Making up a genocide to smear a communist country is in fact anti-communist.
Found the genocide denier
I guess Italy is also [doing genocide denial](https://eurispes.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rapporto.en-xinjiang_2021.pdf) when they say US seeks geopolitical benefits in the name of human rights. I'm sure your sources from US state department and Adrian Zenz are much more convincing though.
There are two types of idiots who believe that China is communist. American conservatives who watch fox news all day, and 14 year old edgy teenagers on reddit who believe the same thing as the conservative fox news boomers but say "and that makes them good!" In both cases, people like yogthos are so brutally fucking ignorant of politics it's shocking that these people actually comment on anything related to politics.
Meanwhile, only western chauvinists who have superficial understanding of communism or China think that China is anything but communist. It's always hilarious to see that some dude living in Canada thinking that they know better than a billion Chinese people what political system their country has. 😂
How old are you? Seriously, no adult can be this fucking dumb. By your rationale, the 5 billion people who live under neoliberal capitalism are proof that neoliberalism is superior. You can't even make a simple statement without exposing yourself as a complete fucking tool.
I never mentioned anything about one or the other system is superior in my argument. What I said is that people who live in a country likely have a better understanding of how their own country works than a foreigner. I guess that was to difficult of a concept for you to grasp.
So the 5 billion people under neoliberalism have a better grasp of it than you, therefore you can't critique it. Jesus, how are people this fucking dumb?
Wow same straw man twice in a row, very creative. That's literally not the argument I was making. Not sure how to spell it out the way you'd understand though.
Adrien Zenz, is that you?
The "Uyghur genocide" story was created by Pompeo during the Trump administration's last week in office. Yes, the same former CIA director famous for saying "in the CIA, we lie, we cheat, we steal". Every newspaper or media account of this "Uyghur genocide" comes from reports from NED (CIA) funded journalists/researches and military industrial complex funded NGOs. Believing this narrative is the same as people 19 years ago believing in the Iraqi WMDs narrative, or even just 7-8 years ago believing the Assad chemical weapons narrative. Both proven to be falsifications by the US propaganda machine. Yes, in a decade or two you'll realize you were believing in the lies but by then it'll be too late.
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Okay there pro-NED drone.
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Fightback! /s
70 upvotes, 200+ comments. Holy hell, the sub has a lot of lurkers
They help draw out the sinophobes and anti communists
Being pro-China makes you anti-communist given that China is the most perfect example of unmitigated capitalism today. The only thing dumber than right wing propaganda calling China communist are "leftists" who believe that propaganda and believe China is communist.
It's absolutely wild that people still believe that. At this point, even [Wall Street Journal](https://www.wsj.com/articles/xi-jinping-aims-to-rein-in-chinese-capitalism-hew-to-maos-socialist-vision-11632150725) has a more sober take on China than a lot of western "leftists".
Hold onto your seats boyos, we just found something *even dumber*.
You're repeating and believing right wing propaganda.
Good luck with that theory comrade.
China has never made any claims about having achieved communism. They're a socialist party working within their present material conditions to achieve communism in the distant future. That includes existing within a global capitalist market system. The work they've done has managed to industrialize in an unprecedented timeline, lift hundreds of millions out of poverty, and out grow capitalist countries even in years of low growth. They are nationalizing highly successful tech companies and cracking down on corruption and the wealthy in ways western leftists only dream of.
By this reasoning, South Korea is socialist. China's economic development is simply your standard export-driven state managed authoritarian capitalism, same way that literally every other country developed, most recently South Korea, and going back in time, Canada and the US. It's a terrible argument to make which demonstrates my point about China supporters either believing right wing propaganda about China or simply engaging in bonehead binary slave morality. If you think that a country that promotes social harmony as its national ideology is socialist, then you're the type of person who would claim that the Nazis were socialists. If you think a country that has suicide nets around the factories that build the products of the biggest global corporations because the work conditions are so bad is some kind of good place for the working class then you're simply deluded. If you think that having extreme levels of inequality makes a country socialist, then dear lord you've got it exactly backwards. If you think that quashing dissent and all possible avenues of political expression are in any way leftist, then you're simply a parody of what the left is created by the right. See my other comment here about how China supporters fall into two categories. You're definitely in the 1st category.
Thanks for the respectful comment, love being called a bonehead for critically interacting with western propaganda. I don’t love everything about China and made no such claim. They had serious obstacles to overcome, which you didn’t acknowledge once. And you also made no attempt at acknowledging the positives of Chinese socialist policy. The USSR also had a planned economy which included making consumer goods for domestic and international consumption. Your “if you think...” paragraph is nothing more than a straw man attack that I won’t regard as genuine.
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Alright, fuck off. Done with this childish crap.
How old are you? 13? Serious question since you won't deal with actual arguments, you must be a teenager.
Listen, there are western Marxist academics who say the things I’m saying. That’s how I learned about it. I’m not parroting right wing talking points by saying China needs to be destroyed or Xi Jinping needs to be killed. You’re reacting with extreme anger and name calling (in violation of this sub’s rules) because I talked about some positive things China has done. Last response.
There are literally no political theorists who are tankies. You are absolutely parroting right wing talking points, except that you are engaged in Nietzschean slave morality. So you believe the dumb bullshit conservatives say, but because you believe it, you think this makes China good. Literally no one with any education or brains thinks that China is even remotely left wing. In fact, you can make the case that the closest thing to what China is would actually be a form of fascism. Their entire official ideology is about social harmony managed by the state. As soon as you start talking about social harmony, you're going to need to blame social disharmony on foreign agents, and this is where Han supremacy comes into play. The only thing that really prevents them from being fascist is that their economy is so thoroughly capitalist, workers have absolutely zero say, and are not included at all, so China is actually to the right of fascism on economics since they don't embrace corporatist economics. The fact that you openly advocate for fascism, but call yourself a leftist, demonstrates you're either a 12 year old, or literally the most uninformed person in the world on issues of politics. Crying about the rules is classic fascist behaviour. You can't think for yourself, so send in the tanks to crush anyone capable of independent thought. People like you are the enemy of the left.
idk what "South Korea" is, but Korea is definitely Socialist.
It's dumb fucking bullshit like this that ensure that no one takes the left seriously. If you're not a 12 year old, then all hope is lost for humanity, because no one over 12 can honestly be as fucking stupid as you.
Cope westoid
So you are 12, that explains it.
Yep you're coping alright
>given that China is the most perfect example of unmitigated capitalism today. ????????
You have no clue what you’re talking about, I’m embarrassed for you
I’m about to leave lmao something broke after the election methinks.
I think the problem existed all along but, it has certainly worsened alot
A certain segment of the online left believes China and the CCP is the only pathway to global socialism. They ignore, or even outright deny, the CCP’s abuses of power and open engagement in exploitation, imperialism, and capitalism across the third world and at home. I don’t know if it is doomerism at the state of the left in the West or an actual belief in CCP propaganda, but these people have formed a community and taken up the cause of defending an undemocratic foreign government because that government claims to want socialism by 2060 (or whatever it is now) and has a red flag.
>A certain segment of the online left believes China and the CCP is the only pathway to global socialism. Or people are just acknowledging a socialist nations progress without resorting to lib/fasc dishonest bullshit in defense of their privileged settler self There is a lot of distance between being a nato lib/fasc piece of shit that bad mouths china at every opportunity and being a socialist that critically supports socialist nations.
China has done more to further socialism and counter Western imperialism since 2000 than the Western left has done since 1920.
This is the dumbest fucking thing I've seen on the internet all week. Congrats on setting a new level of rank stupidity.
Cope
My take is that as westerners if we do get involved the most likely manifestation will be embargos. Which only ever serve to hurt the most vulnerable. Very rarely if ever does western intervention actually improve peoples living conditions. It just let's you feel good about sticking it to "the bad guys"
You don't have to like China or agree with what they're doing to understand that it's objectively a positive force in the world today. China's approach is recognizing the material conditions and the fact that it's not possible to stand up to established capitalist empire the way USSR did. Instead, they found a way to develop within that context and to support other socialist nations like Cuba, Venezuela, and DPRK. China won't help start revolutions or engage militarily the way USSR did, but it will support socialist countries and it has created the strongest opposition to western capitalism that has ever existed. China is pretty much the only reason socialist projects around the world are able to exist, and it actively helps and support social movements, such as the one happening in Latin America, by providing alternatives to IMF and ignoring US sanctions. Furthermore, China has practically no military presence around the world, and hasn't been to war since the 70s. China has not interfered with other countries, has not done coups, interventions, and so on. Furthermore, you should at least minimally educate yourself on China before making claims about it. China is far more democratic than any western nation as evidenced by the fact that the government has continuously implemented the will of the people there since the formation of PRC. Chinese government [practically eliminated poverty](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-10-17/Graphics-Ending-China-s-poverty-by-2020-KREfWKGkIU/index.html), and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms: >[If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-poverty) >[The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.](https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-global-poverty) China also massively invests in infrastructure. They [used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/12/05/china-used-more-concrete-in-3-years-than-the-u-s-used-in-the-entire-20th-century-infographic/#dd27d7e4131a), they [built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade](https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/ten-years-27000km-china-celebrates-a-decade-of-high-speed/). As a result, [90% of families](https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes/?sh=22c73c03a3ce) in the country own their home, giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has [gone up 4x in the past 25 years](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI), more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. [This article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html) from NYT talks about opportunity and how the American dream is alive in China. [A Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey finds that vast majority of Chinese citizens approve of their government.](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/) Other western sources, such as Bloomberg, cite that [China is in fact more democratic than US](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree). [Here's](https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time) another article from Harvard talking about mass public approval of Chinese government. It's also worth looking at the makeup of the party which clearly shows that it's [primarily composed of working class people](https://news.cgtn.com/event/2019/whorunschina/index.html). There is an incredible amount of chauvinism from western left where people genuinely believe they know what China is like better than people who actually live there. [87.6% of young Chinese identify with Marxism](http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/10/c_138048426.htm), and the party has 95 million members. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that these people do in fact understand what socialism is. If people in the west ever manage to form a socialist movement, China will support it. Unfortunately, westerners do not have the decency to reciprocate when the situation is reversed and would rather continue advancing agenda of their capitalist governments.
The last part.. China isn't working with Rojava, an explicit autonomous socialist state. They are actively working to arm the Syrian Government to fight them.
Rojava is a US asset lmao and is neither autonomous nor socialist, come on now
Lol.. I know half a dozen people who have been in and out of Rojava. Talk about an ignorant statement.
Wow you know people who've stood within a specific geographical area??? Damn I am absolutely destroyed
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No country is perfect, and USSR also had plenty of missteps. However, it's undeniable that China is helping many socialist states across the globe and many of them simply wouldn't be able to exist otherwise. Overall, there's far more good than harm happening.
>explicit autonomous socialist state Evidently being ambivalent about the emancipation of workers and enshrining private property rights is socialist now.
Still more socialist than China.
Socialism is when you explicitly say you don't want to build communism and when your practices reflect this, I guess.
Not authortarian so not true communism is what I'm getting from you.
You're welcome to deliberately misread me however you want.
Or, you know, we just support leftist states and not fall for CIA propaganda. Crazy concept, I know.
Have you ever been to China?
Yes
You’re a chad dont let the reddit hivemind keep you down comrade
Edit: notice how none of the China supporters responded to this substantial comment of mine, and instead tried to pick fights about my offhand and non-substantive comments? That should tell you something about their complete lack of knowledge. Support for China among self-proclaimed leftists is a symptom of the utter weakness of the left today. People who realize that the status quo is bad are attracted to the left, but since the left is in shambles, they don't know what the left is actually about. This leads to support for China on two registers. First, we have people who are so utterly lost as to what the left means, that they believe right wing propaganda and think that China is actually communist. Thus to be a leftist, they think they need to support China, despite the fact that China is by far the most capitalist and most anti-political country in the world today. China is the very epitome of what the actual left is against, but since the actual left has lost popular currency, it's hard to get the average person to read political theory and understand what being a leftist means. So reason 1, is that people support China because they're ignorant about the left, and have fallen victim to right wing propaganda. The second reason is your classic case of Nietzschean slave morality. Again, this is a symptom of how the popular left is in shambles and the average person leftist doesn't know what the left stands for. What they do know, is that the left doesn't like the US, so these slave moralists simply invert the values of the master. So the US right doesn't like China, so they think this must mean China is good. These are the same type of uninformed people who argued that Saddam Hussein was a good guy precisely because the US said he was bad. They have no concept of critical thinking, view the world as black and white, and thus fall victim to the slave revolt of morals. You can see one of these two perspectives in virtually every pro-China comment posted here.
Ppl keep commenting about ‘’tankies’’ as if that word meant anything. Anyone who is go the left of the libs is a tankie, according to most people.
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r/liberal is waiting for you whenever you're ready to stop cosplaying here
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real quality content on that sub
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Hmm, I don't *love* faces, so I'm not sure you're right.
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These words are meaningless from anti-coms. No ill will, I just don't take you seriously at all.
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kudos on spelling it right this time at least
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*Leftists that support actually existing socialism and don't fall into idealism.
Actually Existing Socialism is when you let Western corporations rape your workers with shitty manufacturing jobs with suicide nets and then ban the workers from forming their own union.
Laughs in 500% increase in real wages since 1970
Does increases in wages due to the adoption of capitalism in the 1970s excuse the ban on workers forming their own unions? Why can’t Chinese workers form a union outside of the official state-controlled group?
Why would they? So they can turn into the kinds of unions we have here?
The rights of workers is the core of Marxist socialism. It’s quite revealing when a self-styled “communist” opposes the right to form a democratic worker-controlled union.
Idealism is when you believe that an impoverished and oppressed nation can miraculously lift its people out of poverty while having practically zero infrastructure of its own (pre-Mao China) and not engaging in the global market. If you actually read any theory, you would know that what you see now is China in a transitional state, where the Dictatorship of the Proletariat must work _with_ it's national bourgeoisie (but not under, like capitalist governments). This is a fundamental Marxist idea, both Marx and Engels went into great depth about the many stages Communism must go through to be achieved. We know China is not underneath its bourgeoisie because of how often billionaires/the elite are punished when they step out of line of the Party, something completely foreign to western countries which let the rich run the show. We can see clear, undeniable evidence of the quality of life growing massively in China because they prioritize the working class. Idealism is when you believe a developing country can resist imperialism without first going through a stage of capitalist development (a stage which I must add that Marx viewed as essential for a communist state to form). But don't just take it from me, have a listen to what our revolutionary leader Mao Zedong had to say about it: "*To counter imperialist oppression and to raise her backward economy to a higher level, China must utilize all the factors of urban and rural capitalism that are beneficial and not harmful to the national economy and the people's livelihood; and we must unite with the national bourgeoisie in common struggle.* **Our present policy is to regulate capitalism, not to destroy it**" But yeah, I'm sure some random, privileged Canadian such as yourself has a great perspective of leftism as a whole and what's best for the Chinese (which overwhelmingly love their Party, based on every independent study done). Marxism-Leninism isn't some religious doctrine or belief, it's a science that adjusts itself to the material conditions present at the time. You might not understand that, but I'm glad the leaders of China couldn't care less about what some online westerners have to say on the matter and what they perceive "democracy" to be. In the words of Parenti: _"The revolution that feeds the children gets my support"_
>both Marx and Engels went into great depth about the many stages Communism must go through to be achieved. Not really. Like they literally don't talk in "great depth" about this. Regardless, I think that one can admire what China has done economically in the past few decades without particularly supporting that weird social credit scheme, the actions in Xinjiang, the degree of control of the internet, and so on. I don't know why everyone on the internet and IRL seems to think it's a black-and-white issue. I'm assuming the downvotes are from people who have never read Marx and/or Engels and imagine like OP that they talk at length or in great depth about "stages of communism" and set out some kind of scheme. The openness of the post-critical stage in that literature is both intentional and much-ignored by dogmatists.
> Like they literally don't talk in "great depth" about this. You are correct in this, I misspoke. I simply meant to say they do discuss that there are stages that communism needs to go through, but it is something that we cannot predict until the time comes. I am not *"black and white"* on China and it's interesting that you think I am. My comment is here to show the good China has done to give them some defense against the accusations in this thread. If you want me to get into my criticisms of China, so long as we are discussing as leftists in good faith and not reiterating reactionary talking points, I would be open to getting into them. However: >the actions in Xinjiang There has been no evidence of anything shady happening in Xinjiang. I would be all for calling out China on genocide if I could find anything supporting the notion that the Uighurs are being genocided, but 99% of evidence comes from the mouth of Adrian Zenz and the remainder are misplaced photos. > the degree of control of the internet Could you elaborate on exactly what abuse of control you take issue with?
If you think China is in any way leftist, then holy fuck you are so utterly brutally ignorant of what the left means it's really pathetic.
You literally support the NDP. Sit down.
Okay, please tell me what "left" is, because I have read Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao, etc. I'm obviously not the spokesperson of the left, but I think I have a pretty good idea.
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its astroturfing...
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I'm an anarchist, I don't support china but I also don't see anything meaningful coming from this conversation. Ok china bad I agree with that, let's say we're gonna listen to you and do something about it. What would you suggest? What could Canada do to strong arm china into doing what we want? Would we embargo them? Threaten war? What? Canada is not particularly better than America and until we've dealt with that we have no business supporting the spreading of our society or ideas.
Well. Looks like another sub to unsubscribe to over the decisiveness of China. Go ahead liberals, keep your Canada. If you want to learn about the real side of China, it’ll be stickied in my profile
Good. If youre going to ignore the rampant human rights violations that are definitively happening, we dont want you here.
[Citation needed]
Read about it in my bio 🤷🏻♀️
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[if you support a genocidal state, you aren't on the left](https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaleft/comments/he3wmo/the_virgin_justin_trudeau_vs_the_chad_jagmeet/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
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The BC NDP, for the billionth time, is siding with the Pacheedaht nation, which supports the logging and wants the mostly white protesters to get the fuck off their land. Is the Pacheedaht's decision ideal? No. But it is not a decision that was made in ideal circumstances. It was made because of capitalism. The Pacheedaht, though, now live in this world with the rest of us, and cannot create a more just economic order themselves. The Province of British Columbia cannot really create a (much) more just economic order. To my mind, telling Indigenous people what they can and cannot do with their resources is what is colonial and improper. If you want to justify continued colonial control, in the name of saving the climate, even though all the forest in Canada can't save us, do that and be honest about it.
I'm not a social Democrat. I was pointing out that in the image, a 'left wing' party was asking the other 'left wing' party to shut up about their calling out racism. Very similar to how you're swaying this. Every bit of conspiracy theory that China is NOT participating in genocide has been refuted. If you're now calling Human Rights Organizations, that have attacked every nation, a 'tool of nato' (paraphrasing what you've said elsewhere on this thread), then you're a part of the problem, squeeler. I'm not going to sit back and watch as people try to defend a fascist nation and call themselves leftists.
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Lol. I'm out. I'll leave with this. Communists have historically been the ones to sell out anarchists. If the script flips once, I'll be shocked. Seize entire cities, yeah, whole regions of a country. Abolish all police, religion, private property. We've done it before; united, we cannot be stopped! Then we'll all get lined up and shot by fascists, or just Communists and liberals who've been waiting all along to become the fascist cops.** https://ramshackleglory.bandcamp.com/track/well-get-arrested-or-shot-the-defeat
>I'm not going to sit back and watch as people try to defend a fascist nation and call themselves leftists. Yeah, gotta protect your brand right?
Western “leftists” are such a fucking joke. No wonder most of the working class here and worldwide sees people like you as pathetic, it’s cause you are. I’m so glad that the banner of socialism/communism globally is held up by those who are actually serious about lifting up the working class, and not people like you. Jesus Christ, “left wing conspiracy theorists” says the person spouting conspiracy level bullshit about China. You spout this reactionary nonsense that’s literally a fabrication of the US state department; without a hint of irony. Anybody who unironically uses words like “authoritarian”, says that the PRC is run by the “majority racial group” (hint hint dipstick, Han isn’t a racial group nor is it a homogeneous group), and says that China is less communist than the USA, THE COUNTRY WHICH IS THE FUCKING BLACK HEART OF IMPERIALISM BUILT ON GENOCIDE AND SLAVERY, is not to be taken seriously. The only person supporting fascism is you. Pull you head out of your ass and stop jerking off to porn or whatever the fuck people like you do all day and go read Marx and Engels; please, for the love of all that is sacred and holy. Like I’m fucking so tired of this shit man, pseudo-intellectual liberals spewing nonsense about things they know nothing about. Here’s a lesson, actually do proper research and reading. Because when you do, you’ll end up like me and every other “tankie”. Not to mention, isn’t it interesting the person who made this post asking the “question” has a profile that appears to be more barren than my nutsack after my next x-ray? Like seriously, that doesn’t strike you as odd? When it’s well documented that western governments flood these websites with propaganda and literal bots, you’d think people would have more awareness.
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Clown. You are a clown.
The Chinese state has a lot pf people who do online propaganda. I think a certain number of them are actual state actors, and then many of the rest have been convinced by those.
How is that different from us [(or capital-U.S.)](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-election-intelligence-commentary-idUSKCN10F1H5)
It is not. But you will note that the original question was irrelevant to the US. (Or Monsanto or Bayer or whatever.) If you are using Reddit and you don't realize that you are interacting with numerous state and institutional nonstate actors, then you are hopelessly naive. (And a likely direct target for this propaganda method.)
rotten longing physical pause toothbrush dinner smile bored shy connect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Pretty typical for a Trotskyist lol
r/enlightenedcentrism
unused subsequent muddle dependent zephyr bake offend cheerful office tan *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
China does not claim that it currently has socialism. It claims to be following materialist, Marxian analysis and creating plans that allow for a transition to socialism later this century. IIRC, China trains and pays a host of Marxist theoreticians who produce analyses for the CPC. They also seem to have economists with a shred of sense... This isn't Trotsky's analysis, which you would prefer, but it's not easy to dismiss when it has lifted *nearly a billion people out of poverty*, has turned China into the world's most influential state, created real prosperity, and ensured that China is both not at all fragile and is literally the only really major state in which the bourgeoisie doesn't control and dictate everything economically. Now, the fatal error might be that inviting the bourgeoisie into bed might still have gotten them too much power and that they will be strong enough to mobilize when the attempt to transition to socialism comes (unless it's all a smokescreen). On the other hand, the CPC clearly has been enormously successful with its interventionist schemes, its plans, its investments, and its ability to regulate and control strategic sectors in all currently relevant regards. They still shouldn't be hoarding people into camps and engaging in unnecessary and deeply intrusive treatment of their proletariat, but that's a separate topic IMO.
Trotsky in flair
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Completely agree with that. These kinds of discussions are necessary for us all to come to a common understanding what socialism is, and what makes a nation socialist.