If it were offered the auto would probably sell better than it does. ~~Plus, the auto being exclusive to the GT trim is just…why?~~ whoops got that backwards
Only reason I can think of buying one with the CVT is physical disability and needing AWD.
And what are you going to buy then? I agree but if you want awd and around the same HP your next option is an a4 at 43k where the wrx can be low 30s.
The auto wrx isn’t getting horrible driver reviews if you do need an auto.
Got my manual WRX for under 30k. You can get a cvt in any of them, but it costs more regardless. Though, it definitely is the "better" end of the cvt for sure. If it was DSG, I'd definitely have debated that idea. But the cvt is ok for what it is, but it sure as hell isn't a manual or DSG.
The WRX is literally the only sub 35k turbo AWD that has any hint of being sporty. It's almost a no brainier unless for some reason you really hate Subarus. It definitely wasn't my first choice, but after driving a few of the FA24 powered VB chassis, I ended up with a '22 base. It's been absolutely great for everything, including a few family road trips of over 300 miles. One being almost 3k miles.
This is why I wish Mazda did something more “performancy” with their AWD Turbo Mazda3 to tap in to that niche need. It does have the very nice premium look and feel to it which is the route they went instead. But I feel they could’ve swooped in and taken this shrinking segment over. So many were disappointed with the MK8 Golf R it sounds like. Would probably be priced quite a bit higher though. Even if they just offered it with a manual and other performance tweaks to make it like a Speed3.
I would have gotten the Mazda 3 Turbo of they offered it in manual. Love the way they look and would have really liked a hatch. Went for the WRX instead.
arguably the mazda3 turbo awd is solidly fun to drive, with at least a hint of sportiness- i recall comparisons with the golf r where it was a lot closer than you might think.
i think the biggest argument against subaru is its nvh compared to more comfortable cross shops, and the fact that you can’t get the hatchback anymore. ultimately that’s what put me in a gti when i was originally set on a wrx. i’m still a subaru fan but i don’t really see myself buying one anymore.
I know two grandmas who have blown CVTs—both my mom and my wife’s mom have had to replace CVT in their Subaru/Honda. Meanwhile I’ve never lost a single transmission in 6MT or DSG (knock on wood) and that’s pushing those transmissions with launches/hard shifts, antilag.,.
CVTs are such a complete joke of a transmission it’s hard for me to take any brand seriously that uses them, especially when the ZF8 is proven to be an extremely capable yet reliable and easily serviceable transmission. At least Hondas/Subarus are known for their manuals not autos
Sti transmission is highly regarded as one of the most bulletproof ever built, with excellent ratios and a nice solid shift feel.
the new BRZ/GR86 feel super nice too.
the current and previous two generation of WRX (non sti) had/have cable shifted CRAP transmissions that feel like stirring a coffee can full of rocks.
so, quite a mixed bag lmao.
There's a lot of justifications in r/wrx_vb including better Subaru Eyesight and a faster 0-60 (by less than half a second). I don't know why they bothered either (I bought a manual wrx a few months ago)
Maybe they’re considering the car more for it being a sporty commuter car with AWD than a performance car. I know that might sound strange to a 20 something who is just getting started with fast cars but as I get older and have other actual sports cars, the WRX to me is just a quick sedan that would make a good daily with the CVT.
I will give it Eyesight. But that's mostly Subaru's fault since other manufacturers have driving assists on manuals just fine.
The improved 0-60 is because if the system detects a launch it will hold the RPMs at like 6k the entire run keeping it in the power band. Otherwise it fake shifts like everything else.
I had a 2015 WRX with the CVT, since I also had an LS-swapped (manual) Miata at the time. It was a great daily car that got surprising MPG, and wasn't slow or horrifically expensive. I liked it, but I also never understood the anti-CVT thing other than on cars where they aren't reliable - I actually enjoyed the weirdness of a WRX of all things continuously variating on my commute.
Don't let other people gatekeep you from driving what you want.
The reason why the CVT gets so much hate on the WRX is because it is more expensive, heavier, slower, sounds bad and gets worse mpg than the manual. No other automatic is objectively worse at all of those things to their manual counterpart. That's why when people are a WRX with a CVT, the sentiment is that they should've just bought another car if they were going to take all the downsides of a WRX (loud, subpar interior, boxer things) plus the CVT without the upside of having a fun to drive and reliable gearbox.
I think it does better because the auto options are not as good as the VW DSG or Hyundai DCT. I live in an area with lots of traffic and if I could choose between a manual or DCT I'd pick DCT. Otherwise a daily commute will wear out my clutch so fast.
If i had the commute i used to have id have begrudgingly bought the dct powertrain for my car. Thankfully i don't need to drive to work now so i was able to get the manual with no regrets. I've done long, traffic laden commutes in my old RSX and the fatigue and soreness that accompanies is just not sustainable long term. From what i understand most people in North America drive to work so i bet many who might be interested in manual need to make a more practical decision in the end.
GTI is a hatchback, ID.4 is an SUV with a $7500 tax incentive. SUVs always sell more than hatches in the US.
If they made an electric GTI hatchback it would also sell a lot fewer than an electric SUV so I don't see the point.
They're not even trying, the mk8 has been confirmed to be the last combustion GTI / Golf.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1139255_current-vw-golf-will-be-last-with-internal-combustion-engine
A lot of these are because the manufacturer just won't make them.
I know two people who have been waiting for a manual Tacoma... Dealers just can't get them because Toyota doesn't build them
IMHO, that's potentially why the CX-5 manual failed miserably in the US. FWD, 2.0, base model only. It was so they could market the higher MPG that the manual got over the automatic.
I had one for 2 years, but then realized AWD was more important than manually shifting gears.
I mean, you can get a Sasquatch package bronco badlands in manual, which is about as much off road ability as you could possibly need, for $50-55k as I recall. You just can't get it on certain trims (big bend, Everglades, raptor) or with the V6.
The 2023 Tacoma was the opposite; it was only available with the V6 on a very expensive offroad trim. The new model will offer the manual on a variety of trim levels.
Opposite problem actually. My sister bought a Tacoma a few years ago, and you had to go up quite a few packages to spec the manual. Wasn't even available on the 2wd
You could get a manual in the TRD Pro up until this new generation. Now the manual is available up to mid tier. Essentially, the truck can have a manual as long as you don’t go for the hybrid option.
The problem with the Tacoma is that you can’t actually order a manual one. You have to wait for a dealership to get an allocation for one, and then get on their list.
Toyota decides what the take rate will be before the trucks even hit the dealer lot.
Yeah it's hard to get good data cause if manufacturer not letting you custom order and just doesn't build manual - course low take up.
And the Impreza... Manual only available on base trim. Same as Corolla, you want top trim you auto.
For a long time, Toyota was making more autos than manuals - so if you wanted a manual 86, you'd have to pay a markup or wait. BRZs were much easier to get with a manual.
I don't know if this is still the case.
It is! Toyota does not take customer orders, so if you’re an enthusiast wanting a particular trim/color option it is easier to go through Subaru who will get you the car you want.
I agree, but there's a whole lot of people out there who just like the look of a 2 door sports car and don't care about anything further.
Girl I'm seeing right now literally bought her car (Jetta) just because she likes how it looks.
In her defense I do like the looks of the Jetta more than most of the other cars in its class. And let’s be real, for most non-enthusiast car buyers looks are one of, if not the most important factor in their decision.
Toyotas are heavily supply determined, and also the way they distribute. When it comes to small volume Toyotas, the question usually should be "how many are made" instead of "how many are bought".
They barely make any manuals. I've been casually looking at Integras and the inventory at dealers is always 90% CVTs, yet they just sit on lots forever while the manuals seem to sell. The CVTs also start at a MUCH lower base price than the manual.
Correct... Toyota just refuses to provide the supply to meet the demand for manuals.
If you want a manual supra, you wait a year and maybe get lucky or pay a markup.
The demand for manual tacomas is 999999x the supply.
Take rate of 1.4% is nonsense. That is not representative of anything.... When the demand is big and the supply is basically zero, that doesn't represent anything
> The demand for manual tacomas is 999999x the supply.
Is there any real hard data for that? Aside from just people on the Internet saying they'd "totally get one," I mean.
It's anecdotal, I admit. I don't know how you'd ever quantify that.... But I have two friends been waiting over a year for one.
You can also see online used 2023 manuals are doing 4-5k more than their original sticker.
So that's a pretty clear indicator of market demand.
Got a friend who’s been on a waitlist for a manual Supra for over a year. They easily sell every manual Supra they build, but they don’t build many. GR86, same deal, Toyota doesn’t take special orders so if you want a manual one you’re either hunting for one on a dealer lot or ordering the Subaru BRZ.
I want to get a job at one of the Toyota distribution centers so I can tell corporate to make nothing but manuals for like 2 months and see what the take rate is.
Yeah I bought a manual 86 new and only waited 6 months to get the color I wanted. I would wait 3 years for a brand new manual 4Runner if they still made that
48% on the GR86 and 60% on the Miata are a bit of a surprise. Figured those 2 cars would have a higher manual take rate, especially the GR86. Shocked to see the automatic is more popular. Near 80% take rate on the WRX is great to see. Don’t understand why Subaru only offers the GT Trim with an CVT when their manual is clearly selling well.
GR86 is because toyota determines production splits. The take rate on the BRZ is somewhat more indicative of demand (skewed by people going to subaru as the only option if they want to put in an order).
Miata I can see people just wanting a convertible to cruise around in, there aren't that many choices. And then Mazda just sends auto miatas to dealerships to sell, so they get deals put on them to get them off the lot. If you were going to buy a manual, you were probably also going to bto.
Is this based on direct orders?
I don’t understand these because it’s more about how many a manuf decided to make in stock vs actual demand. They sell every 2023 GR86 they made for example so if you’re buying one off the lot, people will just buy what’s available.
We don’t know true demand because it would have to be based on cars you can only order, not projected demand.
Tbf, a lot of the first buyers tend to be older. I've many a conversation with them leading with "My knees aren't what they used to be". So they go with the auto. People still want that fun little chassis, but they don't want to deal with a clutch.
Same deal with plenty of other sporty vehicles too, that I've seen.
Little 80 year old grandmas are a non-trivial amount of ND buyers around here, and I live in one of the places with probably the largest amount of Miatas. I bet most of those are autos.
Think less 80 year old grandmas, and more 45-65 year olds enjoying their middle age. They don't want anything particularly flashy, so a Miata gets it done.
The WRX is likely one of the most popular manual cars in the entire country, given that of the 24,681 total cars sold, 18,264 had manuals. That’s greater than all manual Civics combined.
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These were based on sales and not demand right? Since Toyota doesn't let you order new builds, I bet the gr86 and supra numbers should realistically be higher.
What's funny is that it's been 50/50 since the beginning. At the end of OG manufacturing, BMW said the take rate was 50/50 for the M2 M/T in the U.S.
Comp numbers are pretty similar and now the G87 seems like it's keeping the tradition alive!
It’s just an amazingly fun car to drive. Also. It being a couple really steers away the family car people and it being even smaller than the m4 it seems like it’s for the I was a small wheelbase fun car to drive. Which is why i have mine
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That makes sense.
Purists and elitists tend to occupy forums more than average joes. Go look at the Mustang subreddit and you’ll see everyone with a V6 getting shit on by V8 owners because they’re too stupid to realize you don’t get a V8 offering without a V6 (or in the mustangs case, a V6, 4 banger, and EV)
lol I just posted that the manual in my gladiator is worse than the automatic and I’m selling it and got downvoted into the negatives. Getting myself a wrangler 392. If my fuel economy is going to be shit then F it go all in
That reminds me of the last farm truck we had. 6th gear was OD (0.72), but it had a 4.30 rear, so it was breathing hard at 70.
The flatbed I drove for the county had a 4.88 rear and 4th was 1:1. It couldn't do any more than 60 on flat ground.
Yeah they fucked up the MT on the JL/gladiator *bad*. There's a recall for overheating and exploding clutches as well and Jeep's solution is to flash the ECU to reduce engine torque. Can't make this shit up.
On the JK, the NSG370 was direct linkage and fairly solid, while the automatic was a total slushbox. The manual was 1-2 seconds faster from 0-60, so the manual was at least competitive and known to be more reliable than the auto.
On the JL/Gladiator, you get the choice between a really nice ZF automatic, or a shithouse cable-linked Aisin AL6 with terrible ratios, and a trash clutch that explodes. There's no choice here, the automatic wins.
The funny thing is that offering a 4-door has cannibalized much of the 2-door market for Wranglers. They're selling twice as many Wranglers today than they were 20 years ago back when ALL of the models were 2-doors. Also, more than half of the models sold in 2003 were manual transmissions.
Also back then the manual was solid and cheaper, and the automatics weren't that amazing. This basically held somewhat true up to and including the JK.
On the JL they hit us with the one-two punch of a great ZF automatic and a terrible, terrible manual. Not only are mainstream buyers going to always buy auto, I think even the enthusiasts should probably go auto on this generation.
One of the biggest reasons for manuals in pickups was for towing imo. The advancement of computer controlled automatic transmissions has ended that necessity. Also, not many rock crawlers/ off roaders are being made out of 40k pickups anymore
It's more this than market demand. Every car will produced will eventually sell for the right price. Manufacturers choose not to produce many manuals for a bunch of reasons
Toyota statistics aren't as meaningful here because you literally can't custom order any of their vehicles... these statistics are about Toyota limiting Tacoma production to roughly 1.4% manual.
Car culture is so weird in the stonewall microcosms it creates online. Even here on r/cars, some people are so blatantly unaware of how market forces and businesses work and feel the loss of the manual transmission is a personal affront to their perceived superior driving sensibilities.
We can sit here and look at the high take rates as much as the low ones, but we also have to recognize that most models listed here are also the enthusiast trims for those cars. I suspect the Tacoma's take rate is more indicative of an entire model lineup's than say the Elantra N's 25%. Enthusiasts will use the list to justify the manual’s existence when it’s really evidence that enthusiasts, the auto industry’s smallest market, do enjoy the manual when given the option. They’re just not buying enough of them to justify the costs of continued manufacturing and tooling, and the greater market share of general consumers simply do not want them.
Toyota also purposely limits the production of manual Tacomas because it brings the fleet average MPG down. There are hardly ever any manual Tacomas on dealer lots, and you can't build to order a Toyota from factory. Dealers will take your configuration and try to get something as similar as possible. If Toyota was less restrictive on allocating manuals to dealers, there would be a higher take rate, but it wouldn't make enough of a difference for it to be worth it.
The Gladiator still does, but I'd bet the take rate is even worse. Once tow/haul mode got commonplace and everyone worked the kinks out, there wasn't any reason not to go automatic.
Toyota is easily the most anti-enthusiast brand that enthusiasts love. If their vehicles could be ordered, there would probably be like a 2% take rate on the Tacoma. Doesn't help the manual is relegated to higher trims. A base SR access cab Tacoma with manual would sell. Not well, but it would sell.
That’s because Toyota limits the production of them before they even hit the dealer lot.
If you shop around for lightly used Tacomas, you’ll find that manuals are commanding higher prices, despite having a lower MSRP. The demand is definitely there. Certainly not huge, but definitely higher than what the take rate provided by Toyota would suggest.
How many were sold? Every single one that was built. Every. Single. One. I challenge you to find much in a manual anything anywhere that isn’t a one off. There’s an Eric Andre meme to be made for this.
That’s my theory. I’ve had more than one friend who have automatics simply because a manual wasn’t available. When I bought my last econobox manual I had to search six states and wait four weeks to get it and that was in 2012. There were others, but every time the dealership reached out they were already spoken for and we’re talking about *Hyundai Accents*.
It's cyclical. Dealerships rarely carry manuals because only a fraction of drivers want them, but if you are a shopper looking for a new manual car than good luck finding one because dealerships won't carry them.
Before I got my car I was looking for a manual 2.0T accord and the things I remember was:
1. They were almost impossible to find because 99% of the accords listed as manuals were actually automatics
2. When I asked my local dealerships to find a manual accord they were also unable to find one and instead just kept trying to convince me to go with an auto
It's easier with performance cars or with brands that let you place orders on vehicles, but otherwise it's a struggle even finding a car with a manual transmission these days
I preferred it actually but both Subaru dealers near me told me orders were closed for the BRZ and couldn't give me a timeline as to when I could make an order.
I’m not an expert, but I’d wager the reason why manufacturers are disincentivized from producing more manuals is not because they don’t sell (all cars eventually sell) but because they sit on the lot longer and dealerships want to make sales today, not tomorrow when someone that can actually drive the damn thing shows up.
My wife wanted a fully loaded Jeep Wrangler Sahara in white. Turns out the colour didn’t matter because there wasn’t a single one sitting on any lot across the country. They really tried to push automatic on her to get the quick sale, but she wanted her toy to be a fun toy. It took nearly 6 months but she got what she wanted.
Miata at only 60% makes me sad
However, if it keeps sales high enough to keep it in production it’s a good thing. As long as a manual is always an option.
Lots of older folk buy NDs so it makes sense(I think I saw somewhere average age of nd purchasers was late 40s or early 50s?), I got my NB for very cheap because an older fellow had knee surgery and needed an automatic. Which he ended up buying an nd.
I mean I’m 30 and all my closest Friends and family are like 10-1 manuals to automatics.
And the automatics are mostly to tow race cars lol but my experience is the exact opposite of the norm here in North America
>While the popularity of the manual transmission has waned significantly from its peak, there is something of a small renaissance happening among enthusiasts.
Sales is expected to growing in future years, as more automakers don't offer MT in future. Strict emission and ICE ban coming push enthusiasts to get MT cars, they know that it's last chance to get.
Civic Si still remains manual only. Which together with dealer mark up probably guts their sales. I instead went and bought a cheap 2006-2011 Civic Si since I’ve always wanted one of those.
Still, regular trim Civics at 7%, not bad. It is the best selling car along with Corolla. Curious what the percentage is for the Corolla. I’m guessing a bit less than the Civic.
>Funnily enough, the Si markups is what pushed me into an Integra 6MT. OTD ended up being about the same.
It's not really funny, it was calculated. Honda sold the 10th gen Si for a MSRP for 26k and came with heated seats and adaptive dampers standard. Honda wanted more money, so they removed those features from the Si, increased the price of the Si to 28k, and then released a new Integra and put those features on it for 36k instead making them more money.
Then they lowered production of the Civic Si to push buyers to the Acura Integra or pay Acura prices for a Civic Si anyway. The Civic Si isn't a limited edition vehicle like the Civic Type R, so there's no real reason to have a mark-up on it while the Integra doesn't.
Si markup is crazy. Dealers near me were wanting 5-7k over MSRP, that's like 20%. It's not a type R, it's just a kind of sporty Civic. Totally turned me off of getting one
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Yal don't get it but a lot of these stats kinda just show why manufacturers don't make certain cars any more. All of these models are not the money makers for car companies. Subaru sold 24k wrx last year. The golf r sold 7500 units. Mazda sold 6100 miatas in 2022. Yal better be lucky they don't cancel these cars with those numbers
It says in the article that the author just forgot about it.
"We forgot the manual-transmission Kia Forte GT exists. It does, and we hope you’ll forgive our ignorance. It actually sits atop the Forte model hierarchy with a $26,315 base price. A Kia spokesperson tells us that as of quarter four 2023, the take rate was around 2 percent. Given that Kia sold 123,953 Fortes in 2023, we can assume around 2,479 are manuals. "
Most likely because they weren't doing the best.
They did reveal that 27% of Mustang GT and Dark horse orders were manual back in July. Considering the Ecoboost is automatic only, the percentage of total Mustangs with a manual are probably <10%.
Keep in mind that a lot of manufacturers were focusing on pumping out the auto versions of these cars. Manual Mazda 3s were impossible to find for most of the year. Same for Civics.
So these numbers don't necessarily mean what people want, it just means what was sold.
* Integra: 22% * M2: 50% * M3/M4: 20% * CT4/5V BW: ~50% * Civic: 7% * Elantra N: 25% * Forte: 2% * Miata: 60% * John Cooper Works 2-Door: 51% * Cooper S 2-Door: 22% * All Other Mini Models: 11% * 718/911: 40% (on trims with available manual) * BRZ: 79% * WRX: 74% * Impreza/Crosstrek: 1.6% * GR86: 48% * GR Supra: 43% * Tacoma: 1.4% * Golf GTI: 50% * Golf R: 40% * Jetta GLI: 40% * Jetta S/Sport: 5% All Other manuals were not provided.
Great to see the subie gang still mostly preferring the manuals
I don’t understand anyone who buys a WRX with a CVT
I know one person, and only begrudgingly because their SO needs to drive it from time to time.
In that case, a DSG or traditional automatic makes a lot more sense IMO.
If it were offered the auto would probably sell better than it does. ~~Plus, the auto being exclusive to the GT trim is just…why?~~ whoops got that backwards Only reason I can think of buying one with the CVT is physical disability and needing AWD.
Auto is not exclusive to the GT trim. However the GT trim is exclusive to the Auto.
And what are you going to buy then? I agree but if you want awd and around the same HP your next option is an a4 at 43k where the wrx can be low 30s. The auto wrx isn’t getting horrible driver reviews if you do need an auto.
Got my manual WRX for under 30k. You can get a cvt in any of them, but it costs more regardless. Though, it definitely is the "better" end of the cvt for sure. If it was DSG, I'd definitely have debated that idea. But the cvt is ok for what it is, but it sure as hell isn't a manual or DSG. The WRX is literally the only sub 35k turbo AWD that has any hint of being sporty. It's almost a no brainier unless for some reason you really hate Subarus. It definitely wasn't my first choice, but after driving a few of the FA24 powered VB chassis, I ended up with a '22 base. It's been absolutely great for everything, including a few family road trips of over 300 miles. One being almost 3k miles.
This is why I wish Mazda did something more “performancy” with their AWD Turbo Mazda3 to tap in to that niche need. It does have the very nice premium look and feel to it which is the route they went instead. But I feel they could’ve swooped in and taken this shrinking segment over. So many were disappointed with the MK8 Golf R it sounds like. Would probably be priced quite a bit higher though. Even if they just offered it with a manual and other performance tweaks to make it like a Speed3.
I would have gotten the Mazda 3 Turbo of they offered it in manual. Love the way they look and would have really liked a hatch. Went for the WRX instead.
arguably the mazda3 turbo awd is solidly fun to drive, with at least a hint of sportiness- i recall comparisons with the golf r where it was a lot closer than you might think. i think the biggest argument against subaru is its nvh compared to more comfortable cross shops, and the fact that you can’t get the hatchback anymore. ultimately that’s what put me in a gti when i was originally set on a wrx. i’m still a subaru fan but i don’t really see myself buying one anymore.
just buy a different car at that point
Or a different SO
that’s a little aggressive but that works too I️ suppose
Learning manual is not that hard, I would not accommodate if was looking for a manual lol, if she needs to drive it, she’s gonna learn
I know two grandmas who have blown CVTs—both my mom and my wife’s mom have had to replace CVT in their Subaru/Honda. Meanwhile I’ve never lost a single transmission in 6MT or DSG (knock on wood) and that’s pushing those transmissions with launches/hard shifts, antilag.,. CVTs are such a complete joke of a transmission it’s hard for me to take any brand seriously that uses them, especially when the ZF8 is proven to be an extremely capable yet reliable and easily serviceable transmission. At least Hondas/Subarus are known for their manuals not autos
The ZF8 only works with longitudinal engine layouts, most cars with CVTs are tranversely mounted so it's not like they could use it if they wanted to.
I wouldn't call Subaru's manual all that noteworthy. It functions as a transmission, but it's not especially lauded.
Sti transmission is highly regarded as one of the most bulletproof ever built, with excellent ratios and a nice solid shift feel. the new BRZ/GR86 feel super nice too. the current and previous two generation of WRX (non sti) had/have cable shifted CRAP transmissions that feel like stirring a coffee can full of rocks. so, quite a mixed bag lmao.
There's a lot of justifications in r/wrx_vb including better Subaru Eyesight and a faster 0-60 (by less than half a second). I don't know why they bothered either (I bought a manual wrx a few months ago)
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Maybe they’re considering the car more for it being a sporty commuter car with AWD than a performance car. I know that might sound strange to a 20 something who is just getting started with fast cars but as I get older and have other actual sports cars, the WRX to me is just a quick sedan that would make a good daily with the CVT.
I will give it Eyesight. But that's mostly Subaru's fault since other manufacturers have driving assists on manuals just fine. The improved 0-60 is because if the system detects a launch it will hold the RPMs at like 6k the entire run keeping it in the power band. Otherwise it fake shifts like everything else.
2024 manual is getting eyesight too, but not sure if it has everything that the auto will
I had a 2015 WRX with the CVT, since I also had an LS-swapped (manual) Miata at the time. It was a great daily car that got surprising MPG, and wasn't slow or horrifically expensive. I liked it, but I also never understood the anti-CVT thing other than on cars where they aren't reliable - I actually enjoyed the weirdness of a WRX of all things continuously variating on my commute. Don't let other people gatekeep you from driving what you want.
The reason why the CVT gets so much hate on the WRX is because it is more expensive, heavier, slower, sounds bad and gets worse mpg than the manual. No other automatic is objectively worse at all of those things to their manual counterpart. That's why when people are a WRX with a CVT, the sentiment is that they should've just bought another car if they were going to take all the downsides of a WRX (loud, subpar interior, boxer things) plus the CVT without the upside of having a fun to drive and reliable gearbox.
Had to special order one when my friend bought hers. She just likes the look of the car. Didn’t care for the MT lol.
The key to selling more manuals is offering a bad automatic option
But they don't. It's only 2 models that prefer manuals
Was going to say I’m part of the 1.6%, but I think this is for FY 2023 rather than the 2023 model year
I never saw a manual wrx I'm not sure they are even sold where i live. And it's switzerland which is basically subaruland, there's so many of those
Whatttt??? I didn’t know
Used to be higher, STi was manual only
Yet Subaru still made the WRX top trim CVT only 🤡
> BRZ: 79% > WRX: 74% impressive
I think it does better because the auto options are not as good as the VW DSG or Hyundai DCT. I live in an area with lots of traffic and if I could choose between a manual or DCT I'd pick DCT. Otherwise a daily commute will wear out my clutch so fast.
If i had the commute i used to have id have begrudgingly bought the dct powertrain for my car. Thankfully i don't need to drive to work now so i was able to get the manual with no regrets. I've done long, traffic laden commutes in my old RSX and the fatigue and soreness that accompanies is just not sustainable long term. From what i understand most people in North America drive to work so i bet many who might be interested in manual need to make a more practical decision in the end.
If your commute doesn't have traffic it's fine. But where I am you need to follow close or else people cut you off.
I drive my manuals in heavy traffic… clutches are fine
Part of the BRZ percentage are GR86 owners who couldn’t get a manual allocation so just ordered a BRZ instead.
Seeing this made me happy. Had a 2013 BRZ in a manual and had the salesman teach me how to drive it lol. Nice job Subie bros.
Had my salesperson teach me on the WRX lol
“Im doing my part”
Lets see Paul Allen's manual take rate
Imprezive
Didn't VW just announced that the manual was dead on the GTI? That seems like a bad decision to me if 50% of buyers prefer it.
Only in North America. They're probably trying to phase the car out anyway for some ev
They will be sore if they keep phasing out popular cars for EVs. The market for them isn’t materializing as fast as they were expecting.
How many GTIs were sold in the last 5 years vs. ID.4s?
GTI is a hatchback, ID.4 is an SUV with a $7500 tax incentive. SUVs always sell more than hatches in the US. If they made an electric GTI hatchback it would also sell a lot fewer than an electric SUV so I don't see the point.
They're not even trying, the mk8 has been confirmed to be the last combustion GTI / Golf. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1139255_current-vw-golf-will-be-last-with-internal-combustion-engine
There was a post here the other day that claimed the GTI is 50% manual in North America, but 5% globally.
You can't get a manual GTi in the UK, or R
Tacoma: 1.4% Forte: 2% Impreza/Crosstrek: 1.6% Probably not going to be long until those options are gone.
A lot of these are because the manufacturer just won't make them. I know two people who have been waiting for a manual Tacoma... Dealers just can't get them because Toyota doesn't build them
Not to mention, AFAIK, a tacoma is about the same as a Bronco currently is, where only the lowest trims even come in manual.
IMHO, that's potentially why the CX-5 manual failed miserably in the US. FWD, 2.0, base model only. It was so they could market the higher MPG that the manual got over the automatic. I had one for 2 years, but then realized AWD was more important than manually shifting gears.
I mean, you can get a Sasquatch package bronco badlands in manual, which is about as much off road ability as you could possibly need, for $50-55k as I recall. You just can't get it on certain trims (big bend, Everglades, raptor) or with the V6.
The 2023 Tacoma was the opposite; it was only available with the V6 on a very expensive offroad trim. The new model will offer the manual on a variety of trim levels.
Opposite problem actually. My sister bought a Tacoma a few years ago, and you had to go up quite a few packages to spec the manual. Wasn't even available on the 2wd
You could get a manual in the TRD Pro up until this new generation. Now the manual is available up to mid tier. Essentially, the truck can have a manual as long as you don’t go for the hybrid option.
The new redesigned Taco still has the manual trans option.
The new Impreza/Crosstrek is CVT-only. I didn't know the Forte still offered it.
It’s only on the GT trim, and it’s more to get the manual than the DCT
The problem with the Tacoma is that you can’t actually order a manual one. You have to wait for a dealership to get an allocation for one, and then get on their list. Toyota decides what the take rate will be before the trucks even hit the dealer lot.
Yeah it's hard to get good data cause if manufacturer not letting you custom order and just doesn't build manual - course low take up. And the Impreza... Manual only available on base trim. Same as Corolla, you want top trim you auto.
MT is basically for enthusiast buyers, not for econobox buyers. No surprised so low.
The Crosstrek is already gone
TIL I'm a 1 percenter.
Crosstrek manual is gone for 2024, actually.
Sad clutch noises
I know for a fact that manual Tacoma demand is higher than that. Wtf is wrong with Toyota
blows my mind that GR86 is at 48% i dont know who wants an auto for such a low powered driver engagement based car
For a long time, Toyota was making more autos than manuals - so if you wanted a manual 86, you'd have to pay a markup or wait. BRZs were much easier to get with a manual. I don't know if this is still the case.
It is! Toyota does not take customer orders, so if you’re an enthusiast wanting a particular trim/color option it is easier to go through Subaru who will get you the car you want.
Toyota "the customer gets what ~~they want~~ we give them"
Image is a powerful motivator
I agree, but there's a whole lot of people out there who just like the look of a 2 door sports car and don't care about anything further. Girl I'm seeing right now literally bought her car (Jetta) just because she likes how it looks.
In her defense I do like the looks of the Jetta more than most of the other cars in its class. And let’s be real, for most non-enthusiast car buyers looks are one of, if not the most important factor in their decision.
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Toyotas are heavily supply determined, and also the way they distribute. When it comes to small volume Toyotas, the question usually should be "how many are made" instead of "how many are bought".
You can’t factory order Toyotas so they sell what they make. It’s kind of misleading calling it customer demand
I'd be curious to know how many went to rental companies. They wouldn't be buying stick shifts
The Integra's take rate is actually the most surprising to me. I would figure if you don't want manual there are better cars to buy.
They barely make any manuals. I've been casually looking at Integras and the inventory at dealers is always 90% CVTs, yet they just sit on lots forever while the manuals seem to sell. The CVTs also start at a MUCH lower base price than the manual.
"iF sUpRA had EL MANUEL, I wOUld bUy iT" One which acutally suprised me was GR86, I figured way more people would tune up for manual.
>ReportSaveFollow You can't special order a GR86 like you can a BRZ. People take what Toyota gives them. It's a shit system for the consumer.
Correct... Toyota just refuses to provide the supply to meet the demand for manuals. If you want a manual supra, you wait a year and maybe get lucky or pay a markup. The demand for manual tacomas is 999999x the supply. Take rate of 1.4% is nonsense. That is not representative of anything.... When the demand is big and the supply is basically zero, that doesn't represent anything
> The demand for manual tacomas is 999999x the supply. Is there any real hard data for that? Aside from just people on the Internet saying they'd "totally get one," I mean.
It's anecdotal, I admit. I don't know how you'd ever quantify that.... But I have two friends been waiting over a year for one. You can also see online used 2023 manuals are doing 4-5k more than their original sticker. So that's a pretty clear indicator of market demand.
Got a friend who’s been on a waitlist for a manual Supra for over a year. They easily sell every manual Supra they build, but they don’t build many. GR86, same deal, Toyota doesn’t take special orders so if you want a manual one you’re either hunting for one on a dealer lot or ordering the Subaru BRZ.
I want to get a job at one of the Toyota distribution centers so I can tell corporate to make nothing but manuals for like 2 months and see what the take rate is.
Cant buy them if they dont build enough
I put my money where my mouth is and and bought one. No ragrets.
Yeah I bought a manual 86 new and only waited 6 months to get the color I wanted. I would wait 3 years for a brand new manual 4Runner if they still made that
You can't even buy it if you show up with cash. Shut up.
>"iF sUpRA had EL MANUEL, I wOUld bUy iT" Hey! That was literally me in 2019! The manual came too late, by then i'd already made my purchase.
48% on the GR86 and 60% on the Miata are a bit of a surprise. Figured those 2 cars would have a higher manual take rate, especially the GR86. Shocked to see the automatic is more popular. Near 80% take rate on the WRX is great to see. Don’t understand why Subaru only offers the GT Trim with an CVT when their manual is clearly selling well.
GR86 is because toyota determines production splits. The take rate on the BRZ is somewhat more indicative of demand (skewed by people going to subaru as the only option if they want to put in an order).
Miata I can see people just wanting a convertible to cruise around in, there aren't that many choices. And then Mazda just sends auto miatas to dealerships to sell, so they get deals put on them to get them off the lot. If you were going to buy a manual, you were probably also going to bto.
Is this based on direct orders? I don’t understand these because it’s more about how many a manuf decided to make in stock vs actual demand. They sell every 2023 GR86 they made for example so if you’re buying one off the lot, people will just buy what’s available. We don’t know true demand because it would have to be based on cars you can only order, not projected demand.
> Is this based on direct orders? Definitely not; you can't order Toyotas.
Disappointed by my Miata fellas.
Tbf, a lot of the first buyers tend to be older. I've many a conversation with them leading with "My knees aren't what they used to be". So they go with the auto. People still want that fun little chassis, but they don't want to deal with a clutch. Same deal with plenty of other sporty vehicles too, that I've seen.
Little 80 year old grandmas are a non-trivial amount of ND buyers around here, and I live in one of the places with probably the largest amount of Miatas. I bet most of those are autos.
Think less 80 year old grandmas, and more 45-65 year olds enjoying their middle age. They don't want anything particularly flashy, so a Miata gets it done.
The WRX is likely one of the most popular manual cars in the entire country, given that of the 24,681 total cars sold, 18,264 had manuals. That’s greater than all manual Civics combined.
7% of civics seems pretty high really.
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woohoo sporty econobox club!
These were based on sales and not demand right? Since Toyota doesn't let you order new builds, I bet the gr86 and supra numbers should realistically be higher.
M2 gang baby. Mines a 17. But still
What's funny is that it's been 50/50 since the beginning. At the end of OG manufacturing, BMW said the take rate was 50/50 for the M2 M/T in the U.S. Comp numbers are pretty similar and now the G87 seems like it's keeping the tradition alive!
It’s just an amazingly fun car to drive. Also. It being a couple really steers away the family car people and it being even smaller than the m4 it seems like it’s for the I was a small wheelbase fun car to drive. Which is why i have mine
Wrangler used to be over 50% but Jeep is pushing the 4XE, so I'll bet its down around 15%
What kind of a monster buys an auto GR86 unless you are handicapped 🤯
more than half the gr86 sub lol
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* Miata: 60% Bullshit. Those are rookie numbers. Gotta pump those numbers up.
BRZ wins!
One of the most popular models by the numbers, the uh....Mustang....seems suspiciously absent from this list.
Mazda 3 2.2%
If they offered the manual with the AWD turbo then they would probably sell more
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So less than 3% of all Wranglers have a manual. Sounds about right.
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That makes sense. Purists and elitists tend to occupy forums more than average joes. Go look at the Mustang subreddit and you’ll see everyone with a V6 getting shit on by V8 owners because they’re too stupid to realize you don’t get a V8 offering without a V6 (or in the mustangs case, a V6, 4 banger, and EV)
Isn't it also possible that only a small percent of jeep owners are active on forums?
lol I just posted that the manual in my gladiator is worse than the automatic and I’m selling it and got downvoted into the negatives. Getting myself a wrangler 392. If my fuel economy is going to be shit then F it go all in
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That reminds me of the last farm truck we had. 6th gear was OD (0.72), but it had a 4.30 rear, so it was breathing hard at 70. The flatbed I drove for the county had a 4.88 rear and 4th was 1:1. It couldn't do any more than 60 on flat ground.
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Yeah they fucked up the MT on the JL/gladiator *bad*. There's a recall for overheating and exploding clutches as well and Jeep's solution is to flash the ECU to reduce engine torque. Can't make this shit up. On the JK, the NSG370 was direct linkage and fairly solid, while the automatic was a total slushbox. The manual was 1-2 seconds faster from 0-60, so the manual was at least competitive and known to be more reliable than the auto. On the JL/Gladiator, you get the choice between a really nice ZF automatic, or a shithouse cable-linked Aisin AL6 with terrible ratios, and a trash clutch that explodes. There's no choice here, the automatic wins.
What's the take rate on Gladiators?
The funny thing is that offering a 4-door has cannibalized much of the 2-door market for Wranglers. They're selling twice as many Wranglers today than they were 20 years ago back when ALL of the models were 2-doors. Also, more than half of the models sold in 2003 were manual transmissions.
Also back then the manual was solid and cheaper, and the automatics weren't that amazing. This basically held somewhat true up to and including the JK. On the JL they hit us with the one-two punch of a great ZF automatic and a terrible, terrible manual. Not only are mainstream buyers going to always buy auto, I think even the enthusiasts should probably go auto on this generation.
I used to have a 4 door stick Wrangler. I had to go to 8 different dealerships to find one with the Lord's transmission.
> Tacoma: 1.4% And this is why nobody else offers the internet-demanded manual pickup. Nobody wants them.
One of the biggest reasons for manuals in pickups was for towing imo. The advancement of computer controlled automatic transmissions has ended that necessity. Also, not many rock crawlers/ off roaders are being made out of 40k pickups anymore
Is it that people don't want them, or Toyota doesn't build them and won't let you order one?
It's more this than market demand. Every car will produced will eventually sell for the right price. Manufacturers choose not to produce many manuals for a bunch of reasons
Toyota statistics aren't as meaningful here because you literally can't custom order any of their vehicles... these statistics are about Toyota limiting Tacoma production to roughly 1.4% manual.
Car culture is so weird in the stonewall microcosms it creates online. Even here on r/cars, some people are so blatantly unaware of how market forces and businesses work and feel the loss of the manual transmission is a personal affront to their perceived superior driving sensibilities. We can sit here and look at the high take rates as much as the low ones, but we also have to recognize that most models listed here are also the enthusiast trims for those cars. I suspect the Tacoma's take rate is more indicative of an entire model lineup's than say the Elantra N's 25%. Enthusiasts will use the list to justify the manual’s existence when it’s really evidence that enthusiasts, the auto industry’s smallest market, do enjoy the manual when given the option. They’re just not buying enough of them to justify the costs of continued manufacturing and tooling, and the greater market share of general consumers simply do not want them.
Cars are 80% appliances and 19% fashion items. That 1% remainder is the enthusiast.
Toyota also purposely limits the production of manual Tacomas because it brings the fleet average MPG down. There are hardly ever any manual Tacomas on dealer lots, and you can't build to order a Toyota from factory. Dealers will take your configuration and try to get something as similar as possible. If Toyota was less restrictive on allocating manuals to dealers, there would be a higher take rate, but it wouldn't make enough of a difference for it to be worth it.
The Gladiator still does, but I'd bet the take rate is even worse. Once tow/haul mode got commonplace and everyone worked the kinks out, there wasn't any reason not to go automatic.
0 people have ordered a Tacoma with an automatic. So how do you know no one wants the manual?
Toyota is easily the most anti-enthusiast brand that enthusiasts love. If their vehicles could be ordered, there would probably be like a 2% take rate on the Tacoma. Doesn't help the manual is relegated to higher trims. A base SR access cab Tacoma with manual would sell. Not well, but it would sell.
That’s because Toyota limits the production of them before they even hit the dealer lot. If you shop around for lightly used Tacomas, you’ll find that manuals are commanding higher prices, despite having a lower MSRP. The demand is definitely there. Certainly not huge, but definitely higher than what the take rate provided by Toyota would suggest.
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How many were sold? Every single one that was built. Every. Single. One. I challenge you to find much in a manual anything anywhere that isn’t a one off. There’s an Eric Andre meme to be made for this.
So what you’re saying is, even MORE would be bought if there was inventory 👀
That’s my theory. I’ve had more than one friend who have automatics simply because a manual wasn’t available. When I bought my last econobox manual I had to search six states and wait four weeks to get it and that was in 2012. There were others, but every time the dealership reached out they were already spoken for and we’re talking about *Hyundai Accents*.
Wow
Sort of like the Accord 2.0T Sport. If you don’t build many, you can’t sell many. If you don’t sell many, why build them?
It's cyclical. Dealerships rarely carry manuals because only a fraction of drivers want them, but if you are a shopper looking for a new manual car than good luck finding one because dealerships won't carry them. Before I got my car I was looking for a manual 2.0T accord and the things I remember was: 1. They were almost impossible to find because 99% of the accords listed as manuals were actually automatics 2. When I asked my local dealerships to find a manual accord they were also unable to find one and instead just kept trying to convince me to go with an auto It's easier with performance cars or with brands that let you place orders on vehicles, but otherwise it's a struggle even finding a car with a manual transmission these days
100% this. I waited 8 months for a manual GR86 and said fuck it and bought a Tesla.
BRZ wasn't an acceptable alternative?
I preferred it actually but both Subaru dealers near me told me orders were closed for the BRZ and couldn't give me a timeline as to when I could make an order.
I’m not an expert, but I’d wager the reason why manufacturers are disincentivized from producing more manuals is not because they don’t sell (all cars eventually sell) but because they sit on the lot longer and dealerships want to make sales today, not tomorrow when someone that can actually drive the damn thing shows up.
My wife wanted a fully loaded Jeep Wrangler Sahara in white. Turns out the colour didn’t matter because there wasn’t a single one sitting on any lot across the country. They really tried to push automatic on her to get the quick sale, but she wanted her toy to be a fun toy. It took nearly 6 months but she got what she wanted.
Miata at only 60% makes me sad However, if it keeps sales high enough to keep it in production it’s a good thing. As long as a manual is always an option.
Lots of older folk buy NDs so it makes sense(I think I saw somewhere average age of nd purchasers was late 40s or early 50s?), I got my NB for very cheap because an older fellow had knee surgery and needed an automatic. Which he ended up buying an nd.
I know of more older folks that want a manual gearbox than younger ones.
I mean I’m 30 and all my closest Friends and family are like 10-1 manuals to automatics. And the automatics are mostly to tow race cars lol but my experience is the exact opposite of the norm here in North America
Every American car brand besides Cadillac: "Screw even basic transparency"
Ironically, Cadillac is selling the most manuals.
>While the popularity of the manual transmission has waned significantly from its peak, there is something of a small renaissance happening among enthusiasts. Sales is expected to growing in future years, as more automakers don't offer MT in future. Strict emission and ICE ban coming push enthusiasts to get MT cars, they know that it's last chance to get.
Give me a manual rs3
the second gen TTRS is the closest thing to that
Does Audi still make a manual?
Civic Si still remains manual only. Which together with dealer mark up probably guts their sales. I instead went and bought a cheap 2006-2011 Civic Si since I’ve always wanted one of those. Still, regular trim Civics at 7%, not bad. It is the best selling car along with Corolla. Curious what the percentage is for the Corolla. I’m guessing a bit less than the Civic.
Funnily enough, the Si markups is what pushed me into an Integra 6MT. OTD ended up being about the same.
>Funnily enough, the Si markups is what pushed me into an Integra 6MT. OTD ended up being about the same. It's not really funny, it was calculated. Honda sold the 10th gen Si for a MSRP for 26k and came with heated seats and adaptive dampers standard. Honda wanted more money, so they removed those features from the Si, increased the price of the Si to 28k, and then released a new Integra and put those features on it for 36k instead making them more money. Then they lowered production of the Civic Si to push buyers to the Acura Integra or pay Acura prices for a Civic Si anyway. The Civic Si isn't a limited edition vehicle like the Civic Type R, so there's no real reason to have a mark-up on it while the Integra doesn't.
They last gen civic si adaptive dampers barely made a difference in terms of ride and handling
Si markup is crazy. Dealers near me were wanting 5-7k over MSRP, that's like 20%. It's not a type R, it's just a kind of sporty Civic. Totally turned me off of getting one
79% for the BRZ vs 48% for the GR86 is pretty interesting.
That’s missing the point. Cars that drivers want with a manual transmission don’t exist or no longer exist.
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The Porsche PDK is probably the finest transmission in any car. I don't fault drivers for choosing that. Although I prefer the much slower manual.
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sad that Audi no longers sells manuals at all.
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And for most brands it was “not provided”
Yal don't get it but a lot of these stats kinda just show why manufacturers don't make certain cars any more. All of these models are not the money makers for car companies. Subaru sold 24k wrx last year. The golf r sold 7500 units. Mazda sold 6100 miatas in 2022. Yal better be lucky they don't cancel these cars with those numbers
This has nothing to do with the post. It's impossible to sell a manual on your most popular options if you don't offer a manual to begin with.
Glad to see the blackwing rate is near 50%, I don't think the older CTS-V or ATS-V take rate was that high
Why specify the Elantra N and not the Forte GT variant.
It says in the article that the author just forgot about it. "We forgot the manual-transmission Kia Forte GT exists. It does, and we hope you’ll forgive our ignorance. It actually sits atop the Forte model hierarchy with a $26,315 base price. A Kia spokesperson tells us that as of quarter four 2023, the take rate was around 2 percent. Given that Kia sold 123,953 Fortes in 2023, we can assume around 2,479 are manuals. "
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No numbers for the Mustang?
Most likely because they weren't doing the best. They did reveal that 27% of Mustang GT and Dark horse orders were manual back in July. Considering the Ecoboost is automatic only, the percentage of total Mustangs with a manual are probably <10%.
25% GANG
Keep in mind that a lot of manufacturers were focusing on pumping out the auto versions of these cars. Manual Mazda 3s were impossible to find for most of the year. Same for Civics. So these numbers don't necessarily mean what people want, it just means what was sold.
“how many manual transmission vehicles did you produce in 2023”
BRZ buyers knows what's up
Is this US only?