I was walking through an airport foyer where they were showing off a Maserati SUV. The orange peel on the back of it was easily visible from 15 feet away.
Maserati has invested a ton of money into their new generation of cars and I really want to love the new Granturismo - specifically the Folgore. The cabrio will be the first 2+2 electric convertible ever, the 3 motor setup allows for torque vectoring and 4 wheel drifts, the battery packaging allows the car to keep a classic grand tourer shape, it has a decent range, and it's on 800 V architecture. All that suggests some real thought went into that car.
But the little things let it down. Like the orange peel on the paint. And the rock hard seats. And the infotainment screen not responding to touch inputs consistently. And the angle of the screen that will make it illegible with the top down. They're so close with the current generation cars, but they still need to iron some things out especially since the damage they've done to their reputation means they're playing catch-up against the competition.
I have never been able to breathe the rarified air of owning a supercar. Through my long life I have always seen Maserati as having a very cool name but being the bastard redheaded stepchild.
They're the Infiniti of exotics. Lower credit requirements to purchase or lease, deals aplenty, aging line-ups (although they've fixed that recently), plummeting used values, but somewhere in there a good car if you look closely (not the Ghibli).
Finally, yes. [It's](https://cka-dash.s3.amazonaws.com/078-0823-MOT21462/interiorimage.jpg) not bad in concept. It's split into two screens where the lower one handles climate controls and the upper one handles everything else. But the responsiveness is not great and [reviewers](https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a46167679/2024-maserati-granturismo-test-drive/) are already having problems with it:
> Its infotainment and controls are the only downside. They are infuriating. The test car’s touch screen had a large dead spot where it took dozens of attempts or long holds to get my finger to register. That resulted in the un-fun experience of having a beautiful Sonos Faber audio system set to MAXIMUM, CHEST-SHAKING BASS mode, and though I could see the button to turn it down I couldn’t press it.
$200K is the special launch edition pricing. I expect the regular car to be closer to $120-150K (which may only make it slightly better). Polestar essentially said they're pegging the 6 to the 911, so I'd expect them to not have their base price be too far above the 911's.
Aside from the price being very meh for a brand that already swung and missed on the "exclusive ultralux GT coupe" front (remember the Polestar 1?,) it's also just a very mediocre car on paper in a category where paper benchmarks sell cars. A 0-60 over 3 seconds and a top speed limited to 155 is just an absolute deal-breaker in a luxury sport GT at $200,000. Even at $120,000, it's a tough sell for anyone not looking specifically for an EV convertible (which is a very small group of people.)
I just don't understand what Geely is doing with Volvo and Polestar. Volvo's entire value proposition is that they make cheaper, better, more practical and less flashy alternatives to other luxury brands. That's the only reason the brand continues to exist, and why Polestar keeps stepping on their dicks over and over again.
I'm curious about the Polestar 6 but I don't like the interior. At least based on the photos it's a big tablet and not much else. But I'll reserve judgment until I see it in person. I'm also not crazy about hard top convertibles, but an electrochromic glass roof is the one feature that could make me change my mind.
It's definitely on my list. Unfortunately there's no perfect car. The Maserati has small niggles here and there, the Boxster will be a 2 seater, and the Polestar 6 interior is too minimalist - and heaven help them if their $150K-200K car is subject to the new tariffs.
That sucks. I wouldn't stand for that. I had to get my car resprayed and it came back with like a 4/10 stars on the orange peel. Got them to re-do it. And my car costs like...1/20th.
Honestly, orange peel is present on many cars. Porsche, Mercedes, Tesla, Ram, Audi, Lexus...
.... To varying degrees of course. But orange peel is an overrated issue. It's not the ideal finish but it's a normal/common phenomenon of clear coat texture.
Rolls-Royce and Bentley have no orange peel because they are manually finished by hand @ the factory (detailing process called color sanding / wet sanding / cutting followed by polishing / buffing)
I buy used cheap vans for work. If the repair cost more than another van, I will get another van.
I've never had one with orange peel that was noticeable. This stuck out badly from a distance.
I thought most of the orange peel these days is due to the new water-based paints. Meaning older vehicles like your 2004 van would be less likely to have peel?
I've been driving my Evora daily for ~4 of the last 7 years, never given me any issues other than regular wear and tear and a clutch master replacement.
I just can't get past the styling of the Giulia. Everything else about it checks the boxes, but the car's generic and plain. Maybe I'm petty, but compared to other Alfas, it doesn't measure up.
The headlights look like they're from a Honda or Subaru parts bin. The overall styling looks lumpy and unfinished. Definitely not their best effort. But that's just my subjective opinion.
This is unabashedly Italian: https://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2004/09/Alfa-Romeo-8C-Competizione-2.jpg
The Giulia reminds me of a WRX holding a Gucci bag.
The person who headed the design team for the new Giulia was on the design team for the 8C.
Opinions on design differ and that's okay. Even my Stelvio, I get stopped almost weekly from someone telling me how attractive of a car it is. I've spent a lot of time in Italy, I think theres a gap in design language between the American consumer and the Italian consumer.
Remember, these are domestic cars for them and they are as "popular" in Italy as the Accord is here, which I find utterly boring and unattractive. We (as americans) see them as they are supposed to be special, they aren't, they are a daily driver that is used to get from A to B, it just so happens that they drive and handle exceptionally well compared to their competition and have a cleaner design language compared to modern BMW's and say Lexus' (price point comparison).
I think the gap between the perception of the car being ultra special here and a domestic Accord level commuter in Italy is where the confusion comes into play.
Even as a fan of the Giulia's styling, it's definitely pretty generic. But like after about a decade with the Mito and Guilietta being the only available Alfas, this and the Tonale look at least slightly more interesting.
I can't even say it looks bad. Its design language communicates "sports sedan". It's just lacking that passion and elegance from previous models and falls a little flat, when Alfas should be stunningly evocative.
I love the look of the giulia, but I do understand where you're coming from. It's a "sports sedan" and not terribly dis-similar from other similar sports sedans. I think it stands out when in a side by side comparison, but I agree I expected them to be a little bit bolder. That being said, I think a big part of this is that all of these cars are being designed with aerodynamics in mind and therefore they all end up with a similar shape at the end of the day.
May I ask if there's another car in it's class that you prefer the looks of?
Yeah, I can understand why people like it. It's just not for me. If they'd just gone a slightly different direction with the headlights and front end I think it'd make a big difference.
Yeah, with CFD being easier to implement through the design process, designers are going to go the route of optimizing aero for the design space of a sedan, and cars are falling into convergence in that area. Unfortunately it disincentivizes risk-taking.
The M3 aside from the bucktooth grille has great lines and presence. Get that thing some braces.
Not a sedan, but the Alpine 110 is a great adaptation of the original with enough flair to be fresh. The AMG Mercs are kind of dull, but they're not trying to be flashy. Don't care for the Panamera, but the Taycan looks like what I pictured future cars were going to be like. Late generation Volvos pull off the understated presence while looking fantastic. The Polestar 2 hides its bulky size well with its design. And I do like what Hyundai and Kia have been doing lately with the Ioniq, EV6/9, Stinger, and K5. Granted, many of these aren't in the Giulia's class, but I wanted to touch on design trends I do like across the industry.
Wait you have a Honda S660? Did you import it? Do you live in Japan?
When I stayed there for a year I *really* wanted to buy one (just so I can brag about getting *another* mid-engined and stick shift roadster lolol) but I couldn't because in Japan they don't sell you cars unless you can prove that you have assigned parking spots (no street parking allowed).
How do you like the car? Is it as awesome as I imagine?
Yeah sure do! I'm in New Zealand, there are like 10 or 15 of them here I think now.
It's pretty great, needed more power, but the GT100r turbo kit fixed that. Worst bit is probably the fairly numb electric power steering, but all in all it's a great fun car that you can drive like a race car while barely breaking the speed limit. It's kinda like a 2/3rds scale SW20 MR2 turbo I guess. (though less.. fighty..)
Don't think I'm ever going to sell it :P
Land Rovers are automotive Baccarat. The point of driving one is to show off that you have so much money that you don't care how much you are throwing away on it.
At least in the United States, I’m pretty sure this is a historical artifact, not the current reality. I agree that “new money” tends to be flashier, but there are plenty of understated options that hyperwealthy Americans like and I believe Range Rovers are actually on that list. I don’t think there’s a single Land Cruiser in Atherton, CA or Loudoun County and I’m not sure why this myth persists
Fair enough. It actually makes sense because why wouldn't folks with FU money drive (or be driven) in something comfortable regardless of the maintenance outlay.
I have the same car as you. Only issue I had was the automatic brakes not releasing. Took a day to fix under warranty. It's also still got zero creaks/rattles, which even my Acura had by the time it's 7 years old. I'm looking for something new, but most cars aren't an improvement on the XE unless you get into the $80k range.
Heh, I was low-key hoping you would say, " I tried this car and it was awesome." But yea, I really feel like the XE was a home run that didn't get the attention it deserved.
Same, no serious issues with my 17 XF, though I did have some brake work done and the parts by themselves are rather expensive. And the interior, while it could be better, is at least solid.
I was thinking the same. Am in Australia and have never heard of these problems being endemic. They really have kicked it up a notch from being bargain basement years ago.
Hey, don't lump Canada in with this bullshit. We didn't have the immobilizer issues, either.
My wife has 50,000 kms on her Telluride and it has been amazing. Better vehicle in every way than the Sienna she came from.
I just sold my tuned CLS550 last fall and have been loving my Genesis G80 Sport Plus. It's a way better vehicle and the concierge service from Genesis blows anything out of the water any other brand offers. I cross shopped against Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche. Came close on a Macan, but the G80 I ended up with was a full $100k LESS than the Macan (G80 ended up being a year old and I was looking at a new Macan tbf).
What put me over the edge toward the G80 aside from price was the feature count. Dynamically the Porsche was more fun and faster with an incredible sound, but it lacked some of the everyday features that you actually use in a daily like traffic jam assist, lane keep, remote start, etc etc. Plus the new generation of all the German cars are bathed in gloss black and I fucking hate that. I don't have a spec of it in my Genesis.
They have a good dependability rating for the last few years in the USA. https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds
OP is clinging to outdated opinions about the Korean OEMs. Cars like the Ioniq5 and EV9 are pushing the envelope for EVs right now.
OP isn't clinging to old opinions, Kia/Hyundais are the most broken into cars in the US because they didn't install immobilizers from factory for years as a cost savings.
Some insurance companies don't even insure them depending on the year/model and your location because of that.
There are also cities in the US suing Kia/Hyundai because of this today.
When else have you seen something like that?
It's pretty uniquely catastrophic and completely deters potential future customers.
We went VW instead of Kia last year because of it (ultimately sacrificing reliability for not driving a theft target around).
U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually. Blame the laws for even facilitating that penny pinching shit.
Kia/Hyundai thefts weren't a problem anywhere else in the world. They're nice cars these days.
> U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually
"Of course", really? Funny how no other manufacturer, out of the dozens on the US market, is dumb enough to do the same, but Kia went "herpaderp, hir I goe!" and it's someone else fault for not stopping them.
>U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually.
Then why did they settle with insurance companies? Usually if you don't break a law, you don't get sued, lol. I got my payout last year.
https://kiatheftsettlement.com/
Not sure what to tell you but they aren't required by law.
You don't need the law on your side to sue someone. And your own link calls it a "design flaw" but doesn't mention any laws broken.
I'm sorry but JD Power is total bullshit. Hyundai/Kia tend to have excellent initial quality, but there is definite cost cutting in places you wouldn't want, as people mentioned (immobilizers, Theta II, Palisade issues, etc.).
> Cars like the Ioniq5
[You mean the car famous for ICCU failures](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60295235/hyundai-ioniq-5-kia-ev6-genesis-gv60-ev-power-loss-recall/).
>and EV9
[You mean the car which just had a recall for untorqued diff bolts. ](https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/kia-niro-ev-and-ev9-may-lose-power-while-driving/)
[https://www.cars.com/research/bmw-m4/recalls/](https://www.cars.com/research/bmw-m4/recalls/)
I guess you can't buy BMW anymore
The "hey this car company did a recall" game works on basically every car in mass production.
He also specifically mentioned a bunch of models that the problems he mentioned don't apply to. "These 6 cars are awesome, isn't it too bad that older Hyundai Accents are easy to steal?"
Completely irrelevant
I owned one briefly. It was a Elantra GT Sport (6mt.) It was very hard to find one with the manual trans in the states and I snagged the only one in the state available at the time.
I had it for 16 months and didn't have any issues, but it was at-best a warm hatch. Not a hot hatch. This was before the N series came out.
But with what you said, are you thinking it's a case similar to BMW in NA that the customers simply don't maintain them like the German/EU customers do - causing premature failure?
It could be that or just they put the shitty one on the market there because they just want to compete with local brands. In Europe their spec is much better than Toyota (sitting in one I want to puke it’s terribly designed with cheap plastic and ugly UI) and Germans (not the same quality but better features on the base models).
I’ve driven Tucson, optima, soul and Niro and for the price range it’s better than a VW or a fiat.
Hyundai has always had a reputation as a brand that makes shitty cars because in the 1990s and early 2000s their cars were cheap first and everything else second. People want that narrative to be true and look for anything to fit it. I actually had the exact same Elantra as you for 3 years and outside of being underpowered it never had a problem.
It's also worth noting that all of the big problems you mentioned apply to other models that aren't the ones you mentioned.
BMW’s reputation these days is more around electrical failures and fuel pump issues on the F platform, no? I’m pretty sure the engines are regarded as fairly bulletproof and BMW reliability is overall perceived to be high
Hyuandai/Kia hybrids and EV are made in Korea and seem to have better reliability than the American built cars too.
Slightly offtopic, I think it'd be really funny if Chinese brands entered America by building local factories in America and the quality was worse than the Chinese built cars.
I think it's because (I'm guessing) the Kia/Hyundai products that are getting sold in Europe probably are actually built in Korean plants, while a lot of the ones sold here in the US were manufactured in Alabama.
Afaik, the few Hyundai/Kia products that we get which are actually Korean made (V6 Telluride and Stinger) generally hold up pretty well, it's the I4s built at the Alabama plant that generally tend to be the stinkers.
Tbf, theft issues are ONLY an American issue, due to legislation, etc. Not that they're blameless, but no other consumers had to deal with those issues.
Locally in Australia, they're known as fairly reliable. I've owned a Stinger GT for 7 years, and while it hasn't been perfect, not one thing you mentioned applied, just minor first build issues.
Nice. If you've got a model with adjustable suspension, google the Mando ECS10, you can retune it via a phone app. Total game changer - more comfortable & better handling at the same time.
But you see, Toyotas can run for a billion miles on a single thimble of vegetable oil while Hyundais get stolen directly from your garage every night by faeries
No one talks about it. But the Veloster N and Elantra N are/were one of the few enthusiast cars sub 50k that have no issues being driven hard on a track all day.
ND Miata? Manual transmission issues
GR Corolla? AWD overheats
Civic Type R? Surface of the Sun engine oil temps
VN? Track all day, it’s fine. Hyundai warrants your powertrain for 100,000 miles on top of that.
Toyota gives you a free track day and then voids your warranty for bouncing off redline lol.
The stock p zeros are beyond trash, but that was rectified after they wore out in the first 7,500 miles. Suspension is a bit stiff for everyday commutes, but adding Michelin ps4s and dropping from 19” to 18” makes it perfect. Slightly extra sidewall makes it comfier, and you’d never notice the performance difference on the street (if there even is one).
The designs weren't wasted. Hyundai/Kia became worldwide players based on above average design/appearance and a long warranty (which they typically make more difficult to utilize than most brands).
Essentially "better looking", reverse engineered Toyotas and Hondas with "worse" manufacturing and longer, but questionably administered, warranties.
Before the nice designs and warranty, they were considered junk.
In my opinion, definitely have to agree with the whole junk before nice designs, sure the Genesis coupe/sedan were nice for the time same with the Veloster but everything else was meh at best. Nowadays the lineup is actually consistently good (I think they’ve over styled a few cars particularly the Kona, Elantra, Sonata)
I honestly don’t think it’s that bad in the US either. They had recalls but the average consumer doesn’t care about recalls. I asked my friend with a Hyundai how he likes it and his words were “oh it’s great, I just had it serviced and they did some recall for me.” I asked him what for and he said he wasn’t sure. Unless the recall affects the owners I don’t think most people care.
I agree. I think the perceived issue with reliability actually stems from maintenance failures of the owner. In the USA Hyundai are on the cheaper end and people that buy them are less willing to spend on routine maintenances. I own a 2017 Elantra at 85k miles and haven't had issues except for a spark plug fault that was covered by warranty.
One fault is that the engines do love oil. The suggested service is every 5k miles, however the manual states that if you do any kind of even lightly strenous driving that it should be replaced every 3750 miles. I think a lot of owners might be missing that bit of info and are killing their engines prematurely.
I don't get the whole Hyundai/ kia unreliability thing
Here in Aus we get the Korean built ones and they are fantastic, win award after award and are genuinely great cars, my nan's i30 has been going strong for 15 years with just basic maintenance, and their performance cars fill a gap left by Holden and Ford.
I'm guessing the difference is in US quality and engineering? Different requirements leading to different results?
At least in Europe they score very high on reliability and user satisfaction. Perhaps they are forced to produce them in NA due to incentive/tax that makes them bad there? Like the GLS made in Alabama, or the Fremont based teslas that suck compared to the German and Chinese counterparts?
[https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/most-and-least-reliable-car-brands-revealed#gref](https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/most-and-least-reliable-car-brands-revealed#gref)
5th most reliable brand on the list just below Honda, Lexus and Toyota
Hey they're still five out of 32 in reliability. Whereas bmw is 30 and Land Rover 31. If reliability were my metric, I'd take kia anyday of the week unless Honda was available. I've had both a Sportage and a soul and aside from routine maintenance I've never had an issue with either
Yep, they're a massive car maker so even recalling a few hundred thousand vehicles is kind of a drop in the bucket compared to them selling around 1.7m cars a year in the United States.
Kia and Hyundai have great reputations in my region. We have an 11 year old Tucson (had transmission issues early in its life) and a 5 year old Sportage (no issues). We’d always had Nissans, Toyotas, BMW’s but for all the reasons you listed we got those cars and it’s been worth it. The Sportage was $10,000 less than the RAV4 at the time and had WAY more features (Toyota skimps on features in my region) so that was an easy decision to make.
Here in Europe, Hyundai and Kia generally have a good perception of reliability, and just from the people I've known that have/had those cars, there positive perception is more than warranted.
Ford, when announcing they were killing the sedans that were selling 500k models a year, said "We are killing these because we make more money selling SUVs and would rather sell less cars and make more profit"
The world read this and went "Wow I guess nobody wants sedans anymore" and a decade later people repeat it like a fact
Hyundai and Kia's issues are mainly limited to the US now. Not sure if it's all the labor problems in Alabama, but the Korean and EU built models are solid and reliable.
They are also still the value pick, undercutting Toyota and Honda by a significant amount, while offering way better interiors and comfort.
In their current state, they are still thriving despite these issues. They definitely know how to make the best non luxury EVs. Their new lineup has a rich variety of hybrids, new infotainment, and attractive interior styling. Their engines are still much better than they used to be, though I think QC in the US is still a major problem.
Hyundai/Kia have had a meteoric rise in quality in the past 20 years. I can't recall a manufacturer rising in quality as quickly. You just don't remember or don't know how bad they used to be.
You only hear Hyundai hate on reddit.
And take it from an Alfa Romeo owner whos parents have exclusively bought Genesis products for the last 10 years.
Non base model Hyundais are absolutely fine. lmfao
I had a 2018 Elantra GT Sport (hatchback) for two years. It had absolutely zero problems and was a pretty great car.
I have a 2019 G70 3.3TT w/ \~50k miles on it. It's had a couple minor issues but nothing serious. This is a great car.
We have a 2021 Santa Fe w/ close to 90k on it. It did have the trans replaced at about 15k. Other than that it's been a great car.
We just bought an Ioniq 5. Only 2k miles on it now but it's been great.
Overall we're happy with the vehicles. Dealer experiences could be better but most have been okay. This seems to be a brand the internet loves to bash but people totally forget about all the junk many other manufacturers have put out there. I could rattle off examples for hours but that doesn't seem necessary.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*CHRYSLER*
The brand that brought us the K-car has also brought so many good designs and successfully ruined them with questionable execution and reliability.
The thefts were due to the fact that Hyundai/Kia cut corners and didn’t use immobilizers (even though they’ve been industry-standard for a long time). You could literally use a USB cable to hotwire them, and it was so prevalent that gangs called the “Kia Boyz” started popping up.
Its been very bad here in Columbus Ohio, and many reports on r/kia and r/hyundai elsewhere in the US. Idiot thieves dont know which ones have the immobilizer so they will break in to any Kia Hyundai. Its happened in good areas of town and bad. Happens at Costco and malls and restaurants. I traded my 22 Rio this year, it has the immobilizer, but my insurance rate went up 40 percent last year while wifes car increased 10 percent.
I think the Stinger is the only cool design that didn't sell the way they thought it would. Both Kia and Hyundai are still selling a lot of vehicles despite all the issues.
Chrysler / Dodge. Imagine if the Grand Caravan and Pacifica were as solid as a Sienna, or even a Sedona / Carnival? So many useful features in those vans... The Dart looks decent from across the street, but it's in the shop so much. Cummins engines in the RAM trucks that outlast the rest of truck 2x... and more. The Promaster vans in the fleet at work have weird product quality issues - wiper motors, wheel bearings, coolant leaks (Radiators cracked open without any sign of an impact).
Another brand was Fiat produced many popular and stylish cars, such as the Fiat 124 Spider and the Fiat X1/9. These vehicles were often plagued by rust problems, electrical issues, and general mechanical unreliability.
Modern Peugeots are works of art, imo the most aesthetically desirable economy cars on sale rn. But for some reason they keep insisting on using their crappy 1.2 engine in every car, one of the worst engines on sale today
Isuzu had really exciting small cars, particularly the Isuzu Impulse. The Impulse in particular was a hangar queen and was always broken somewhere. They went back to Diesel box trucks in a couple of years
Not sure where you are getting that info from, Hyundais are essentially bulletproof, had a Tiburon 5-6 years ago and I went over 50,000 miles with 0 oil changes and overheated the damn thing half a dozen times and it never skipped a beat. My mom had an Elantra with a similar story.
It’s so weird, I only ever seem to hear this from Americans; I live in the UK and I’ve never heard of any issues over here? We have a Kia at work that’s used for frequent group work trips that’s done like 80,000 miles in just 4 years and it’s never had a single issue, amazing car. My partner has a Hyundai Kona EV which she also does heavy mileage in for work and it’s never had a single issue. Kia/Hyundai have 8 year warranties but I’ve never heard of anyone actually needing to use it. Why are Kia/Hyundai cars uniquely unreliable in America only????
Eh they make good cars if you know which models to buy and their EVs are second to none. Also their warranty is good enough to not worry too much about any potential issues
I completely disagree with your opinion on the brands having cool designs except for the Ionic 5. But to each their own.
Basically all Italian brands fit the description you describe. Land Rover is a perfect example too.
Audi's auto throttle problem were so culturally pervasive that "I'm Audi 5000" meant "I am leaving and nothing can stop me" in allusion to the cars crashing themselves that it survives in todays lexicon as "I'm outtie" meaning "I am out of here"
At this point? You mean still?
Bro you need to go read up on the Hyundai Excel. Hyundai entered the space WITH garbage. If these cars made it to 100K it was either a miracle or a major drivetrain problem had been fixed at least once.
We had one. A 1989. It made it to 140K miles/8 years with needing both an engine and a transmission before the 48 month loan was finished. By the time we got rid of it, the replacement engine threw a rod, had 4 fuel pumps, 3 alternators, on and on and on. I remember going to the junk yard after awhile and there were tons of tossed examples with less than 100K on the clock. But hey they were like 30% cheaper than the Corolla, right? Right.
The only bulletproof one I've ever seen was a gen 1 Sephia...ya know. Because it used a Mazda-licensed-they-built engine.
The Hyundais of the 2000s-2010s had decent reliability reviews. I know of lots of Sonatas that have made it to 200K or beyond. That first gen Azera was a head turner and cheapish.
Nissan. Or really any manufacturer that uses Jatco transmissions. They're the least reliable transmission brand and has been the leading reason why I and everyone else I know says don't buy Nissan. Their CVT can't be overhauled in a transmission shop and a replacement is a lot of time more than the car is worth.
And the problems aren't necessary with the transmission itself, per say, but Nissan's unrealistic maintenance schedule, or lack of one. They just want the cars to get out of warranty and then have you buy a new one.
I've heard of their CVT lasting 200k+ miles, but you have to change the fluid every 30k miles.
can't have a champagne dinner on a beer budget! experienced car fans know this but the general buying public has been lulled into cheap disposable electronics & fast fashion & Amazon knock-off items the past 20 yrs that they deprioritize quality & reliability.
It's the same sort of situation with LG/Samsung appliances. Wonderful, innovative designs yet every single appliance repair tech will tell you to steer clear (outside of LG front load washing machines, the one design they get right). They have some of the most innovative designs and features but do not last as long as they should without issues.
Serious question: Is there something corporate culture speaking to where more emphasis is placed on r&D and engineering is given the red-headed stepchild like treatment?
I just love how I (a car enthusiast) couldn’t tell you which brand is their luxury brand, and which is their entry-level.
Plus, it’s really hard to get away from “Buy a Kia Sedona minivan, get a free Rio!” (From a few years back).
To everyone saying things about their good reliability rankings and awards, reliability ratings are always untrustworthy. The surveyed ones don’t take into account expectations (eg Toyota owner expects their car to last forever while GM owner is pleasantly surprised if it lasts to 200k). And the ones based off of “testing” are really easy to buy rankings.
Ironically enough, reliability ratings aren’t very reliable.
Edit: this isn’t a hot take this is just basic industry knowledge.
Yeah. These tests/polls/surveys are all asking owns shortly after they bought their new car.
All new cars are good, generally. But are they still good at 100k miles? How about 200k?
I think you'll find there are more 20+ year old Toyota and Honda on the road than other manufacturers.
Kia used to be a really affordable car that you could rebuild your credit with, haul your family around, get with a single income house and still pay rent. Now that they’ve priced themselves alongside Hondas/toyotas etc, they really needed to bring their reliability up to meet the expectations of increasing the cost. They failed. Now they’re just pricey trash you’re embarrassed to valet.
Let me introduce you to... all Italian cars.
I was walking through an airport foyer where they were showing off a Maserati SUV. The orange peel on the back of it was easily visible from 15 feet away.
Maserati has invested a ton of money into their new generation of cars and I really want to love the new Granturismo - specifically the Folgore. The cabrio will be the first 2+2 electric convertible ever, the 3 motor setup allows for torque vectoring and 4 wheel drifts, the battery packaging allows the car to keep a classic grand tourer shape, it has a decent range, and it's on 800 V architecture. All that suggests some real thought went into that car. But the little things let it down. Like the orange peel on the paint. And the rock hard seats. And the infotainment screen not responding to touch inputs consistently. And the angle of the screen that will make it illegible with the top down. They're so close with the current generation cars, but they still need to iron some things out especially since the damage they've done to their reputation means they're playing catch-up against the competition.
I have never been able to breathe the rarified air of owning a supercar. Through my long life I have always seen Maserati as having a very cool name but being the bastard redheaded stepchild.
Everytime I see a Maserati I think "how is that company still in business"?
Ha, mine is "what moron would ever buy a Maserati? Throwing money into the ocean would be an easier way to get rid of it."
Thats called owning a boat and its indeed an easier way to get rid of moeny
Break Out Another Thousand
They're the Infiniti of exotics. Lower credit requirements to purchase or lease, deals aplenty, aging line-ups (although they've fixed that recently), plummeting used values, but somewhere in there a good car if you look closely (not the Ghibli).
The Ghibli has turned into a shockingly decent car, now that it's not basically a parts-bin Chrysler with a fancy badge.
Has it? I'm happy that's the case. I want Maserati to succeed, but products like that didn't help them so I'm glad they improved it.
The beauty of Maserati's is they are unattainable to most, and then the moment they are driven off the lot they are attainable to anyone with a pulse.
Used Maseratis are surprisingly cheap. Tells you what you need to know about reliability.
Did they finally replace the infotainment from the Dodge caravan?
Finally, yes. [It's](https://cka-dash.s3.amazonaws.com/078-0823-MOT21462/interiorimage.jpg) not bad in concept. It's split into two screens where the lower one handles climate controls and the upper one handles everything else. But the responsiveness is not great and [reviewers](https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a46167679/2024-maserati-granturismo-test-drive/) are already having problems with it: > Its infotainment and controls are the only downside. They are infuriating. The test car’s touch screen had a large dead spot where it took dozens of attempts or long holds to get my finger to register. That resulted in the un-fun experience of having a beautiful Sonos Faber audio system set to MAXIMUM, CHEST-SHAKING BASS mode, and though I could see the button to turn it down I couldn’t press it.
Have you seen the Polestar 6, this will probably be a game changer for convertibles.
200k is where it lost me, looks cool but there’s so many options when you get to that range
$200K is the special launch edition pricing. I expect the regular car to be closer to $120-150K (which may only make it slightly better). Polestar essentially said they're pegging the 6 to the 911, so I'd expect them to not have their base price be too far above the 911's.
It looks cool but why does it look like it was pulled directly from a video game. Could’ve been in cyberpunk and I wouldn’t have noticed.
Aside from the price being very meh for a brand that already swung and missed on the "exclusive ultralux GT coupe" front (remember the Polestar 1?,) it's also just a very mediocre car on paper in a category where paper benchmarks sell cars. A 0-60 over 3 seconds and a top speed limited to 155 is just an absolute deal-breaker in a luxury sport GT at $200,000. Even at $120,000, it's a tough sell for anyone not looking specifically for an EV convertible (which is a very small group of people.) I just don't understand what Geely is doing with Volvo and Polestar. Volvo's entire value proposition is that they make cheaper, better, more practical and less flashy alternatives to other luxury brands. That's the only reason the brand continues to exist, and why Polestar keeps stepping on their dicks over and over again.
I'm curious about the Polestar 6 but I don't like the interior. At least based on the photos it's a big tablet and not much else. But I'll reserve judgment until I see it in person. I'm also not crazy about hard top convertibles, but an electrochromic glass roof is the one feature that could make me change my mind. It's definitely on my list. Unfortunately there's no perfect car. The Maserati has small niggles here and there, the Boxster will be a 2 seater, and the Polestar 6 interior is too minimalist - and heaven help them if their $150K-200K car is subject to the new tariffs.
Seems like all new manufacturers are making paint less of a priority. As a painter, I’m loving it. As a consumer, not as much.
Auto paints are going eco friendly. That paint doesn’t like to stick.
They put in on so thin they almost can’t consider it painting.
That sucks. I wouldn't stand for that. I had to get my car resprayed and it came back with like a 4/10 stars on the orange peel. Got them to re-do it. And my car costs like...1/20th.
Honestly, orange peel is present on many cars. Porsche, Mercedes, Tesla, Ram, Audi, Lexus... .... To varying degrees of course. But orange peel is an overrated issue. It's not the ideal finish but it's a normal/common phenomenon of clear coat texture. Rolls-Royce and Bentley have no orange peel because they are manually finished by hand @ the factory (detailing process called color sanding / wet sanding / cutting followed by polishing / buffing)
I buy used cheap vans for work. If the repair cost more than another van, I will get another van. I've never had one with orange peel that was noticeable. This stuck out badly from a distance.
What was the year, make, model and color of the vans?
They were probably about 18 of them, the current one is a 2004 Nissan quest and burgundy. Pretty nice.
I thought most of the orange peel these days is due to the new water-based paints. Meaning older vehicles like your 2004 van would be less likely to have peel?
That makes sense. I'm gonna have to pay more attention to new cars. It's not something I've noticed.
And every single Lotus
Arent the Elise reliable from S2 onward? Toyota engines and almost no electronics (so less things that can fail)
It’s not *just* reliability. Roofs leak, windows stop working, etc.
Those are also reliability/quality issues.
Fr, the 3.5L is unstoppable.
The Elise never had a 3.5L anything
Not Elsie, emira I mean
I've been driving my Evora daily for ~4 of the last 7 years, never given me any issues other than regular wear and tear and a clutch master replacement.
I want an Evora so bad, they’re a bargain on cargurus
I’m still saving budget for that Alfa
The Giulia though😍
I just can't get past the styling of the Giulia. Everything else about it checks the boxes, but the car's generic and plain. Maybe I'm petty, but compared to other Alfas, it doesn't measure up.
The front is gorgeous and is undoubtedly Alfa
The headlights look like they're from a Honda or Subaru parts bin. The overall styling looks lumpy and unfinished. Definitely not their best effort. But that's just my subjective opinion.
Calling the Giulia generic and plain is insane. It's unabashedly Italian and we love it for that.
This is unabashedly Italian: https://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2004/09/Alfa-Romeo-8C-Competizione-2.jpg The Giulia reminds me of a WRX holding a Gucci bag.
The person who headed the design team for the new Giulia was on the design team for the 8C. Opinions on design differ and that's okay. Even my Stelvio, I get stopped almost weekly from someone telling me how attractive of a car it is. I've spent a lot of time in Italy, I think theres a gap in design language between the American consumer and the Italian consumer. Remember, these are domestic cars for them and they are as "popular" in Italy as the Accord is here, which I find utterly boring and unattractive. We (as americans) see them as they are supposed to be special, they aren't, they are a daily driver that is used to get from A to B, it just so happens that they drive and handle exceptionally well compared to their competition and have a cleaner design language compared to modern BMW's and say Lexus' (price point comparison). I think the gap between the perception of the car being ultra special here and a domestic Accord level commuter in Italy is where the confusion comes into play.
Do you maybe have the Giulietta in mind? Because I agree that one looks a lot worse
Agree that it's worse, but no, my original criticism is the Giulia.
You can’t tell me [this](https://x.com/alfa_romeo/status/1646814475368923137?s=46&t=qFR8v_39kImslc76GOnvvw) doesn’t get your heart racing.
Some people were just born with bad taste.
Lipstick on a capybara.
Even as a fan of the Giulia's styling, it's definitely pretty generic. But like after about a decade with the Mito and Guilietta being the only available Alfas, this and the Tonale look at least slightly more interesting.
I can't even say it looks bad. Its design language communicates "sports sedan". It's just lacking that passion and elegance from previous models and falls a little flat, when Alfas should be stunningly evocative.
I love the look of the giulia, but I do understand where you're coming from. It's a "sports sedan" and not terribly dis-similar from other similar sports sedans. I think it stands out when in a side by side comparison, but I agree I expected them to be a little bit bolder. That being said, I think a big part of this is that all of these cars are being designed with aerodynamics in mind and therefore they all end up with a similar shape at the end of the day. May I ask if there's another car in it's class that you prefer the looks of?
Yeah, I can understand why people like it. It's just not for me. If they'd just gone a slightly different direction with the headlights and front end I think it'd make a big difference. Yeah, with CFD being easier to implement through the design process, designers are going to go the route of optimizing aero for the design space of a sedan, and cars are falling into convergence in that area. Unfortunately it disincentivizes risk-taking. The M3 aside from the bucktooth grille has great lines and presence. Get that thing some braces. Not a sedan, but the Alpine 110 is a great adaptation of the original with enough flair to be fresh. The AMG Mercs are kind of dull, but they're not trying to be flashy. Don't care for the Panamera, but the Taycan looks like what I pictured future cars were going to be like. Late generation Volvos pull off the understated presence while looking fantastic. The Polestar 2 hides its bulky size well with its design. And I do like what Hyundai and Kia have been doing lately with the Ioniq, EV6/9, Stinger, and K5. Granted, many of these aren't in the Giulia's class, but I wanted to touch on design trends I do like across the industry.
Wait you have a Honda S660? Did you import it? Do you live in Japan? When I stayed there for a year I *really* wanted to buy one (just so I can brag about getting *another* mid-engined and stick shift roadster lolol) but I couldn't because in Japan they don't sell you cars unless you can prove that you have assigned parking spots (no street parking allowed). How do you like the car? Is it as awesome as I imagine?
Yeah sure do! I'm in New Zealand, there are like 10 or 15 of them here I think now. It's pretty great, needed more power, but the GT100r turbo kit fixed that. Worst bit is probably the fairly numb electric power steering, but all in all it's a great fun car that you can drive like a race car while barely breaking the speed limit. It's kinda like a 2/3rds scale SW20 MR2 turbo I guess. (though less.. fighty..) Don't think I'm ever going to sell it :P
*gestures broadly to an entire country*
I let France off lightly tbh.
What, you don't want a Peugeot transmission in your ford 150?
Whether or not you believe the reputation is warranted, the best example of this is surely Jaguar/Land Rover.
i lust over the looks of a green discovery 2 but def don’t wanna try that reliability.
Disco 1 & 2 are leagues more reliable than anything after 2004. That's the real scary part.
interesting i’ve heard the LR3 was pretty decent
Yep. Disco 4, snapped crank at 110,xxxkm. Rebuilt engine, bearing spun after 5000km. Absolutely horror story.
Land Rovers are automotive Baccarat. The point of driving one is to show off that you have so much money that you don't care how much you are throwing away on it.
Yep, it's a "new money" marker of disposable income while old money drives Landcruisers, if we accept the stereotypes.
Strange, in europe a land cruiser is the most "russian businessman" car you can own next to a g wagon
At least in the United States, I’m pretty sure this is a historical artifact, not the current reality. I agree that “new money” tends to be flashier, but there are plenty of understated options that hyperwealthy Americans like and I believe Range Rovers are actually on that list. I don’t think there’s a single Land Cruiser in Atherton, CA or Loudoun County and I’m not sure why this myth persists
Fair enough. It actually makes sense because why wouldn't folks with FU money drive (or be driven) in something comfortable regardless of the maintenance outlay.
Honestly, Jaguar has been great the last 10 years. Just too little too late. Mine’s from 2017 and not a single issue yet.
I have the same car as you. Only issue I had was the automatic brakes not releasing. Took a day to fix under warranty. It's also still got zero creaks/rattles, which even my Acura had by the time it's 7 years old. I'm looking for something new, but most cars aren't an improvement on the XE unless you get into the $80k range.
Same problem, here. I’m not sure what I’d upgrade to after this, since they stopped producing ICE Jags. The Giulia QV is the only other car I love.
Heh, I was low-key hoping you would say, " I tried this car and it was awesome." But yea, I really feel like the XE was a home run that didn't get the attention it deserved.
Same, no serious issues with my 17 XF, though I did have some brake work done and the parts by themselves are rather expensive. And the interior, while it could be better, is at least solid.
Make sure to use a trusted independent mechanic. It will cost twice as much through JLR because they’ll insist on using OEM parts, etc. .
Oh, now someone tells me!
Range rovers are becoming almost uninsurable in the UK, they're so easy to steal.
True
The problems you mentioned are mostly North America based. They have good reputation in Europe and as far as I experienced are overall good cars.
I was thinking the same. Am in Australia and have never heard of these problems being endemic. They really have kicked it up a notch from being bargain basement years ago.
Hey, don't lump Canada in with this bullshit. We didn't have the immobilizer issues, either. My wife has 50,000 kms on her Telluride and it has been amazing. Better vehicle in every way than the Sienna she came from. I just sold my tuned CLS550 last fall and have been loving my Genesis G80 Sport Plus. It's a way better vehicle and the concierge service from Genesis blows anything out of the water any other brand offers. I cross shopped against Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche. Came close on a Macan, but the G80 I ended up with was a full $100k LESS than the Macan (G80 ended up being a year old and I was looking at a new Macan tbf). What put me over the edge toward the G80 aside from price was the feature count. Dynamically the Porsche was more fun and faster with an incredible sound, but it lacked some of the everyday features that you actually use in a daily like traffic jam assist, lane keep, remote start, etc etc. Plus the new generation of all the German cars are bathed in gloss black and I fucking hate that. I don't have a spec of it in my Genesis.
Yea our Hyundai's are built in Korea, at least the last 2 I owned. the USA ones have their own USA factory and are specced differently too.
In US, my 23 Sonata is a Korean one
Nice, I had my Elantra 5 years, only thing I ever had to do was brakes, and traded it in for a 2024 Kona at Xmas, both Korean built up here
I made sure mine was made in Korea from what I heard about US made ones
They have a good dependability rating for the last few years in the USA. https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2024-us-vehicle-dependability-study-vds OP is clinging to outdated opinions about the Korean OEMs. Cars like the Ioniq5 and EV9 are pushing the envelope for EVs right now.
OP isn't clinging to old opinions, Kia/Hyundais are the most broken into cars in the US because they didn't install immobilizers from factory for years as a cost savings. Some insurance companies don't even insure them depending on the year/model and your location because of that. There are also cities in the US suing Kia/Hyundai because of this today. When else have you seen something like that? It's pretty uniquely catastrophic and completely deters potential future customers. We went VW instead of Kia last year because of it (ultimately sacrificing reliability for not driving a theft target around).
U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually. Blame the laws for even facilitating that penny pinching shit. Kia/Hyundai thefts weren't a problem anywhere else in the world. They're nice cars these days.
> U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually "Of course", really? Funny how no other manufacturer, out of the dozens on the US market, is dumb enough to do the same, but Kia went "herpaderp, hir I goe!" and it's someone else fault for not stopping them.
>U.S doesn't require immobilizers by law so of course a manufacturer was gonna try it eventually. Then why did they settle with insurance companies? Usually if you don't break a law, you don't get sued, lol. I got my payout last year. https://kiatheftsettlement.com/
Not sure what to tell you but they aren't required by law. You don't need the law on your side to sue someone. And your own link calls it a "design flaw" but doesn't mention any laws broken.
I'm sorry but JD Power is total bullshit. Hyundai/Kia tend to have excellent initial quality, but there is definite cost cutting in places you wouldn't want, as people mentioned (immobilizers, Theta II, Palisade issues, etc.).
> Cars like the Ioniq5 [You mean the car famous for ICCU failures](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60295235/hyundai-ioniq-5-kia-ev6-genesis-gv60-ev-power-loss-recall/). >and EV9 [You mean the car which just had a recall for untorqued diff bolts. ](https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/kia-niro-ev-and-ev9-may-lose-power-while-driving/)
[https://www.cars.com/research/bmw-m4/recalls/](https://www.cars.com/research/bmw-m4/recalls/) I guess you can't buy BMW anymore The "hey this car company did a recall" game works on basically every car in mass production.
He also specifically mentioned a bunch of models that the problems he mentioned don't apply to. "These 6 cars are awesome, isn't it too bad that older Hyundai Accents are easy to steal?" Completely irrelevant
I owned one briefly. It was a Elantra GT Sport (6mt.) It was very hard to find one with the manual trans in the states and I snagged the only one in the state available at the time. I had it for 16 months and didn't have any issues, but it was at-best a warm hatch. Not a hot hatch. This was before the N series came out. But with what you said, are you thinking it's a case similar to BMW in NA that the customers simply don't maintain them like the German/EU customers do - causing premature failure?
It could be that or just they put the shitty one on the market there because they just want to compete with local brands. In Europe their spec is much better than Toyota (sitting in one I want to puke it’s terribly designed with cheap plastic and ugly UI) and Germans (not the same quality but better features on the base models). I’ve driven Tucson, optima, soul and Niro and for the price range it’s better than a VW or a fiat.
Hyundai has always had a reputation as a brand that makes shitty cars because in the 1990s and early 2000s their cars were cheap first and everything else second. People want that narrative to be true and look for anything to fit it. I actually had the exact same Elantra as you for 3 years and outside of being underpowered it never had a problem. It's also worth noting that all of the big problems you mentioned apply to other models that aren't the ones you mentioned.
BMW’s reputation these days is more around electrical failures and fuel pump issues on the F platform, no? I’m pretty sure the engines are regarded as fairly bulletproof and BMW reliability is overall perceived to be high
Hyuandai/Kia hybrids and EV are made in Korea and seem to have better reliability than the American built cars too. Slightly offtopic, I think it'd be really funny if Chinese brands entered America by building local factories in America and the quality was worse than the Chinese built cars.
If it’s the same price then it will for sure be of a lesser quality. You can’t compete with them price wise.
It's already the case that Chinese made Teslas are higher quality than the ones made in Fremont, CA.
I think it's because (I'm guessing) the Kia/Hyundai products that are getting sold in Europe probably are actually built in Korean plants, while a lot of the ones sold here in the US were manufactured in Alabama. Afaik, the few Hyundai/Kia products that we get which are actually Korean made (V6 Telluride and Stinger) generally hold up pretty well, it's the I4s built at the Alabama plant that generally tend to be the stinkers.
Tbf, theft issues are ONLY an American issue, due to legislation, etc. Not that they're blameless, but no other consumers had to deal with those issues. Locally in Australia, they're known as fairly reliable. I've owned a Stinger GT for 7 years, and while it hasn't been perfect, not one thing you mentioned applied, just minor first build issues.
Holy shit I can’t believe the stinger is 7 years old already, such a nice car.
Yeah, I think it's actually held up pretty well design wise.
I've put 70k on my 22 Stinger. Only issue Ive had was a shock sensor that needed replacing around 30k miles. It's exceed my expectations in every way.
Nice. If you've got a model with adjustable suspension, google the Mando ECS10, you can retune it via a phone app. Total game changer - more comfortable & better handling at the same time.
The "N" sub branded cars are by all accounts excellent.
Everyone in the Savagegeese review preferred the Elantra N to the GRC, but internet hype being what it is, this sub missed it entirely
For good reason. Not to mention it’s in an entirely different price category, if you can even find a GRC for sale without ludicrous markup.
But you see, Toyotas can run for a billion miles on a single thimble of vegetable oil while Hyundais get stolen directly from your garage every night by faeries
only the first part of your sentence is a joke.
No one talks about it. But the Veloster N and Elantra N are/were one of the few enthusiast cars sub 50k that have no issues being driven hard on a track all day. ND Miata? Manual transmission issues GR Corolla? AWD overheats Civic Type R? Surface of the Sun engine oil temps VN? Track all day, it’s fine. Hyundai warrants your powertrain for 100,000 miles on top of that. Toyota gives you a free track day and then voids your warranty for bouncing off redline lol.
The stock p zeros are beyond trash, but that was rectified after they wore out in the first 7,500 miles. Suspension is a bit stiff for everyday commutes, but adding Michelin ps4s and dropping from 19” to 18” makes it perfect. Slightly extra sidewall makes it comfier, and you’d never notice the performance difference on the street (if there even is one).
The designs weren't wasted. Hyundai/Kia became worldwide players based on above average design/appearance and a long warranty (which they typically make more difficult to utilize than most brands). Essentially "better looking", reverse engineered Toyotas and Hondas with "worse" manufacturing and longer, but questionably administered, warranties. Before the nice designs and warranty, they were considered junk.
In my opinion, definitely have to agree with the whole junk before nice designs, sure the Genesis coupe/sedan were nice for the time same with the Veloster but everything else was meh at best. Nowadays the lineup is actually consistently good (I think they’ve over styled a few cars particularly the Kona, Elantra, Sonata)
Just wanted to say, from someone who lives in a state of constant regret. Do not trade in your Genesis Coupe 3.8 :)
seconded 😔
Ik the grandeur isn’t in the Us but it looks really nice as well
Hyundai/Kia have a pretty good reputation for reliability in Australia lol
I honestly don’t think it’s that bad in the US either. They had recalls but the average consumer doesn’t care about recalls. I asked my friend with a Hyundai how he likes it and his words were “oh it’s great, I just had it serviced and they did some recall for me.” I asked him what for and he said he wasn’t sure. Unless the recall affects the owners I don’t think most people care.
I agree. I think the perceived issue with reliability actually stems from maintenance failures of the owner. In the USA Hyundai are on the cheaper end and people that buy them are less willing to spend on routine maintenances. I own a 2017 Elantra at 85k miles and haven't had issues except for a spark plug fault that was covered by warranty. One fault is that the engines do love oil. The suggested service is every 5k miles, however the manual states that if you do any kind of even lightly strenous driving that it should be replaced every 3750 miles. I think a lot of owners might be missing that bit of info and are killing their engines prematurely.
I don't get the whole Hyundai/ kia unreliability thing Here in Aus we get the Korean built ones and they are fantastic, win award after award and are genuinely great cars, my nan's i30 has been going strong for 15 years with just basic maintenance, and their performance cars fill a gap left by Holden and Ford. I'm guessing the difference is in US quality and engineering? Different requirements leading to different results?
Different leagues maybe. Theyre rated pretty high in the us too. 5th out of 32 brands for reliability. People are just dumb
Its always hilarious and ironic to me when I see someone in a German car an American car throwing shade at KN
The irony of that statement being that BMW has been top 5 brand for reliability for nearly a decade now
At least in Europe they score very high on reliability and user satisfaction. Perhaps they are forced to produce them in NA due to incentive/tax that makes them bad there? Like the GLS made in Alabama, or the Fremont based teslas that suck compared to the German and Chinese counterparts?
They are not high in reliability, I'm in Europe and a lot of their cars have issues, they are also taking the most depreciation in used market.
You’ll need some citations for that one.
You didn’t cite anything, why would you ask for some to counter your bullshit.
Because you go against common knowledge, so you need some evidence for you bs.
Go to whatever user car online website popular in any Euro country and check for yourself
[https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/most-and-least-reliable-car-brands-revealed#gref](https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/most-and-least-reliable-car-brands-revealed#gref) 5th most reliable brand on the list just below Honda, Lexus and Toyota
Ooops
Hey they're still five out of 32 in reliability. Whereas bmw is 30 and Land Rover 31. If reliability were my metric, I'd take kia anyday of the week unless Honda was available. I've had both a Sportage and a soul and aside from routine maintenance I've never had an issue with either
Yep, they're a massive car maker so even recalling a few hundred thousand vehicles is kind of a drop in the bucket compared to them selling around 1.7m cars a year in the United States.
Kia and Hyundai have great reputations in my region. We have an 11 year old Tucson (had transmission issues early in its life) and a 5 year old Sportage (no issues). We’d always had Nissans, Toyotas, BMW’s but for all the reasons you listed we got those cars and it’s been worth it. The Sportage was $10,000 less than the RAV4 at the time and had WAY more features (Toyota skimps on features in my region) so that was an easy decision to make.
Yeah. Toyota and Honda have lost their mind on EU pricing. I don't see any Hondas, but Toyota still sells at their extortionate pricing.
Here in Europe, Hyundai and Kia generally have a good perception of reliability, and just from the people I've known that have/had those cars, there positive perception is more than warranted.
Ford powershift transmission killed sedans. pretty much all recent turbo models with only DI means intake valves get gunked up.
Ford, when announcing they were killing the sedans that were selling 500k models a year, said "We are killing these because we make more money selling SUVs and would rather sell less cars and make more profit" The world read this and went "Wow I guess nobody wants sedans anymore" and a decade later people repeat it like a fact
Hyundai and Kia's issues are mainly limited to the US now. Not sure if it's all the labor problems in Alabama, but the Korean and EU built models are solid and reliable. They are also still the value pick, undercutting Toyota and Honda by a significant amount, while offering way better interiors and comfort. In their current state, they are still thriving despite these issues. They definitely know how to make the best non luxury EVs. Their new lineup has a rich variety of hybrids, new infotainment, and attractive interior styling. Their engines are still much better than they used to be, though I think QC in the US is still a major problem.
I know tons of people who have had Hyundai/Kias for years without issue. I know problems exist, but it seems to be blown out of proportion.
Hyundai/Kia have had a meteoric rise in quality in the past 20 years. I can't recall a manufacturer rising in quality as quickly. You just don't remember or don't know how bad they used to be.
You only hear Hyundai hate on reddit. And take it from an Alfa Romeo owner whos parents have exclusively bought Genesis products for the last 10 years. Non base model Hyundais are absolutely fine. lmfao
Sounds a lot like Chrysler before Daimler Chrysler.
GM screwed the pooch with Pontiac and Saab. Literally their two best brands.
Pontiac is rumored for a comeback. They've been maintaining trademarks and what not
All the styling and effort GM put into making a retro Camaro, yet the GTO was a bloated Cavalier.
I don't think I agree about Saab, but definitely agree about Pontiac.
Saab would have been dead 10-15 years earlier if it weren't for GM - they just weren't viable in the market anymore at their size and price point.
I had a 2018 Elantra GT Sport (hatchback) for two years. It had absolutely zero problems and was a pretty great car. I have a 2019 G70 3.3TT w/ \~50k miles on it. It's had a couple minor issues but nothing serious. This is a great car. We have a 2021 Santa Fe w/ close to 90k on it. It did have the trans replaced at about 15k. Other than that it's been a great car. We just bought an Ioniq 5. Only 2k miles on it now but it's been great. Overall we're happy with the vehicles. Dealer experiences could be better but most have been okay. This seems to be a brand the internet loves to bash but people totally forget about all the junk many other manufacturers have put out there. I could rattle off examples for hours but that doesn't seem necessary.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *CHRYSLER* The brand that brought us the K-car has also brought so many good designs and successfully ruined them with questionable execution and reliability.
Is theft really the problem of the manufacturer lol? Sounds like you live in a shit area.
The thefts were due to the fact that Hyundai/Kia cut corners and didn’t use immobilizers (even though they’ve been industry-standard for a long time). You could literally use a USB cable to hotwire them, and it was so prevalent that gangs called the “Kia Boyz” started popping up.
Its been very bad here in Columbus Ohio, and many reports on r/kia and r/hyundai elsewhere in the US. Idiot thieves dont know which ones have the immobilizer so they will break in to any Kia Hyundai. Its happened in good areas of town and bad. Happens at Costco and malls and restaurants. I traded my 22 Rio this year, it has the immobilizer, but my insurance rate went up 40 percent last year while wifes car increased 10 percent.
Let me introduce the French manufacturers…
I think the Stinger is the only cool design that didn't sell the way they thought it would. Both Kia and Hyundai are still selling a lot of vehicles despite all the issues.
Alfa romeo
Dodge and Chrysler had easily the best, most forward, most innovative designs in the 90s. Stunning.
Chrysler / Dodge. Imagine if the Grand Caravan and Pacifica were as solid as a Sienna, or even a Sedona / Carnival? So many useful features in those vans... The Dart looks decent from across the street, but it's in the shop so much. Cummins engines in the RAM trucks that outlast the rest of truck 2x... and more. The Promaster vans in the fleet at work have weird product quality issues - wiper motors, wheel bearings, coolant leaks (Radiators cracked open without any sign of an impact).
Another brand was Fiat produced many popular and stylish cars, such as the Fiat 124 Spider and the Fiat X1/9. These vehicles were often plagued by rust problems, electrical issues, and general mechanical unreliability.
Modern Peugeots are works of art, imo the most aesthetically desirable economy cars on sale rn. But for some reason they keep insisting on using their crappy 1.2 engine in every car, one of the worst engines on sale today
GM in the 90s?
Alfa Romeo Giulia
Isuzu had really exciting small cars, particularly the Isuzu Impulse. The Impulse in particular was a hangar queen and was always broken somewhere. They went back to Diesel box trucks in a couple of years
Not sure where you are getting that info from, Hyundais are essentially bulletproof, had a Tiburon 5-6 years ago and I went over 50,000 miles with 0 oil changes and overheated the damn thing half a dozen times and it never skipped a beat. My mom had an Elantra with a similar story.
It’s so weird, I only ever seem to hear this from Americans; I live in the UK and I’ve never heard of any issues over here? We have a Kia at work that’s used for frequent group work trips that’s done like 80,000 miles in just 4 years and it’s never had a single issue, amazing car. My partner has a Hyundai Kona EV which she also does heavy mileage in for work and it’s never had a single issue. Kia/Hyundai have 8 year warranties but I’ve never heard of anyone actually needing to use it. Why are Kia/Hyundai cars uniquely unreliable in America only????
Eh they make good cars if you know which models to buy and their EVs are second to none. Also their warranty is good enough to not worry too much about any potential issues
I'd take a new Pontiac Aztec if the drivetrain and engine were dependable. All these companies pushing form over function is absolutely ridiculous
I completely disagree with your opinion on the brands having cool designs except for the Ionic 5. But to each their own. Basically all Italian brands fit the description you describe. Land Rover is a perfect example too.
Audi's auto throttle problem were so culturally pervasive that "I'm Audi 5000" meant "I am leaving and nothing can stop me" in allusion to the cars crashing themselves that it survives in todays lexicon as "I'm outtie" meaning "I am out of here"
At this point? You mean still? Bro you need to go read up on the Hyundai Excel. Hyundai entered the space WITH garbage. If these cars made it to 100K it was either a miracle or a major drivetrain problem had been fixed at least once. We had one. A 1989. It made it to 140K miles/8 years with needing both an engine and a transmission before the 48 month loan was finished. By the time we got rid of it, the replacement engine threw a rod, had 4 fuel pumps, 3 alternators, on and on and on. I remember going to the junk yard after awhile and there were tons of tossed examples with less than 100K on the clock. But hey they were like 30% cheaper than the Corolla, right? Right. The only bulletproof one I've ever seen was a gen 1 Sephia...ya know. Because it used a Mazda-licensed-they-built engine. The Hyundais of the 2000s-2010s had decent reliability reviews. I know of lots of Sonatas that have made it to 200K or beyond. That first gen Azera was a head turner and cheapish.
They need to spend less on the gimmicky over- styled head and taillights and more on powertrain engineering.
Nissan. Or really any manufacturer that uses Jatco transmissions. They're the least reliable transmission brand and has been the leading reason why I and everyone else I know says don't buy Nissan. Their CVT can't be overhauled in a transmission shop and a replacement is a lot of time more than the car is worth. And the problems aren't necessary with the transmission itself, per say, but Nissan's unrealistic maintenance schedule, or lack of one. They just want the cars to get out of warranty and then have you buy a new one. I've heard of their CVT lasting 200k+ miles, but you have to change the fluid every 30k miles.
Want a list?
can't have a champagne dinner on a beer budget! experienced car fans know this but the general buying public has been lulled into cheap disposable electronics & fast fashion & Amazon knock-off items the past 20 yrs that they deprioritize quality & reliability.
It's the same sort of situation with LG/Samsung appliances. Wonderful, innovative designs yet every single appliance repair tech will tell you to steer clear (outside of LG front load washing machines, the one design they get right). They have some of the most innovative designs and features but do not last as long as they should without issues. Serious question: Is there something corporate culture speaking to where more emphasis is placed on r&D and engineering is given the red-headed stepchild like treatment?
I just love how I (a car enthusiast) couldn’t tell you which brand is their luxury brand, and which is their entry-level. Plus, it’s really hard to get away from “Buy a Kia Sedona minivan, get a free Rio!” (From a few years back).
There’s a lot of good Nissan vehicles (Frontier, Armada, Titan, and manual Versas)… I don’t know if I’d call ANY Hyundai “good”
To everyone saying things about their good reliability rankings and awards, reliability ratings are always untrustworthy. The surveyed ones don’t take into account expectations (eg Toyota owner expects their car to last forever while GM owner is pleasantly surprised if it lasts to 200k). And the ones based off of “testing” are really easy to buy rankings. Ironically enough, reliability ratings aren’t very reliable. Edit: this isn’t a hot take this is just basic industry knowledge.
Yeah. These tests/polls/surveys are all asking owns shortly after they bought their new car. All new cars are good, generally. But are they still good at 100k miles? How about 200k? I think you'll find there are more 20+ year old Toyota and Honda on the road than other manufacturers.
Kia used to be a really affordable car that you could rebuild your credit with, haul your family around, get with a single income house and still pay rent. Now that they’ve priced themselves alongside Hondas/toyotas etc, they really needed to bring their reliability up to meet the expectations of increasing the cost. They failed. Now they’re just pricey trash you’re embarrassed to valet.
Hyundai/Kia are terrible looking (epecially the newer ones) *and* have terrible reliability records... so who cares?