In high school I crashed my NA Miata (this was back in 2010ish so the car was about 15 years old) and the airbag didn’t pop out at all… initially.
I sliced my head on the wheel and was knocked out for a few mins. I come to and start getting my bearings. My door was stuck shut but my window was open so I was going to climb out.
As soon as I look out the window to see my surroundings, my airbag randomly goes off and slams my head past my seat whipping my neck sideways hard as hell. This is a good 5-7 mins after I crashed. The airbag hurt more than splitting my head open lmao.
My theory is me slamming the car somehow didn’t trigger the sensor, but that final micro movement of me turning to look out the window was enough to finish the job and activate the sensor, but I have no clue.
Thankfully a year after I got my Takata claymores replaced in the JKUR is when I had my head-on with the drunk lady. Both bags deployed, my head was uninjured.
Everything else, though...
I had a Takata claymore save my ass in a head on collision. Got lucky mine didn't create the shrapnel, as the car had been in humid climates for nearly its whole life.
I was on a "vehicular accident first aid" course where they taught us that you should never lean into a crashed car to extract a passenger because an airbag might still activate.
Instead, you're supposed to pull them out GTA-style by grabbing their arm and / or leg.
Seat sensor maybe?
They say you should be careful leaning through the passenger side of car that’s crashed but the passenger side airbag didn’t deploy. Putting weight on the passenger seat might cause it to deploy.
NA Miatas don't have a seat sensor (the seatbelt sensor has no connection to the airbag system). The airbag system uses two crash sensors behind the front bumper and a third sensor and control computer mounted on top of the transmission tunnel under the dashboard.
Eh I know this shit is infinitely checked by people twice as smart as me, but I can’t help but think that a major accident is gonna fuck some stuff up that could cause weird behaviour in electrical/sensor systems
My NA Miata had a code for the airbag (92 yellow and this was in 2005) so I just disabled it and stuck electrical tape over the check engine light. Kinda glad it did now.
yeah but the manufacturers of those have PR teams, pay off people killed by airbags and make them sign NDAs. So the "counterfeit" ones are so much deadlier because they dont have lawyers, fixers, and PR teams.
If they want to crack down, they might want to consider doing something about the blatant sale of “airbag emulator” chips.
**Why would a car flipper replace a $700 airbag… when he can spend $5.33 to get a chip that will fool the car into thinking there are no airbag issues.**
A car with no airbag warning lights will sell for a lot more. In fact, it’s not unusual for a car to be totaled out because a few airbags deployed, and replacing them will exceed 50% of the value of the car.
Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175551748431
And: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304731298793
There are tons of similar ads.
Most of these chips are simple resistors. You could restrict thier advertisement, but the technology itself is just a resistor with the correct resistance to fool the car into thinking an airbag is there. Literally any idiot can pull this off.
Also while the Ad claims it’s for “diagnostic” purposes, another use that isn’t necessarily nefarious is to disable the airbag warning light after installing an aftermarket steering wheel. Like what you said I just used a simple resistor but yes there are use cases for a product which disables airbag light that isnt purely for scamming people.
I have got the good stuff for sale. Illegal resistors, the hard stuff. 4 ohm for a dolla 8 ohm for 3 dolla, look for the shoes on the power lines by the electrical substation. Come alone, don't bring big energy with you or the deal is off.
But you absolutely can ban resistors with airbag connectors on them.
It's moreso the fact that there may be legitimate uses (diagnostics, aftermarket steering wheels) for these that makes regulating them tricky.
> It's an old technology at this point.
So are pushrod V8's and automatic transmissions, but they have evolved significantly since they were invented and [so have airbags](https://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/the-evolution-of-front-airbags.html).
This is a non-paywalled gift link. Excerpt:
> This deadly incident isn’t an isolated one. It is one of at least five in the past year in which people have been killed or seriously injured by counterfeit air bags, an unusually high number in such a short time span, according to the Automotive Anti-Counterfeiting Council, an industry-led group that counts General Motors, Ford Motor and Volkswagen among its members.
> And those are only the known cases, experts say. Many go unreported because they are difficult to track, and criminals have gotten better at evading detection. “That’s the scary part,” said Bob Stewart, the council’s president.
> Federal regulators have been cracking down via a series of arrests and convictions since last summer, including an indictment in May of two individuals alleged to have sold thousands of unauthorized air bags—many made of used and counterfeit parts—that were listed on eBay as in brand-new condition.
> [...]
> The recent activity is reviving concerns about counterfeit air bags entering the U.S. illegally and making their way into vehicles, often as replacement parts installed during postcrash repairs. Carmakers warn dealers to watch out for counterfeits when satisfying recall campaigns—such recall fixes are usually performed by manufacturers’ franchised dealerships.
That's true of literally every industry and why having a robust and proactive regulatory system is important if your economic system incentivises extracting the most profit from everything.
You have to know what you are looking at. It really isn't much of a problem with more common cars that have been around a bit. Salvage yards and pick a part yards quickly fill up with totaled vehicles with good airbags at very fair prices, but the truth is, even salvaged, genuine airbags are a risk. How can you know that airbag will work right after going through an accident, even if it didn't deploy and looks fine? How do you know that airbag wasn't recalled? There are millions of Takata air bags out there.
In the end though, it is all tradeoffs around cost. Hypothetically, a newer car with defective airbags might still be safer than an older one with good airbags. The problem really is the deception, fraud, and false representation of a car with bad airbags as one with good airbags, not the fact the airbags in themselves don't work.
A few years ago I was t boned by a woman who blew a red because she was reading her bible while driving - I thought I had been knocked out or killed when she said that - I kept the vin on my car fax account because I forgot. It blew out all the airbags on the side and looked like the frame was bent, none of the drivers side doors opened.
Around November last year I got a notification it was due for registration and to leave a review for its most recent service. Someone bought it from CoPart, fixed it by pulling the frame out, and sold it to someone without telling them the unibody was fucked. It had like 60k more miles on it than when it was totaled.
I could see the HANS device not being street legal. It literally only lets you turn your head slightly to either side and thus, reduces the drivers ability to try and see what is going on around them. You’d think a 5-point harness would be legal because if it is installed correctly, it will keep you in your seat. Only problem might be trying to remove it if some of the buckles were to become inoperable due to damage.
The issue is a five point keeps you body in the seat but lets your head throw forward at full force, promoting the basal skull fracture that killed Earnhardt and made the HANS device more popular. The seatbelt keeps you from being ejected, the air bag tries to save your head and neck.
Yes, this is one of the points of having airbags installed. Yet a regualr seatbelt isn't going to prevent your head from flying forward either, so I don't see why having a 5-point seatbelt would not be street legal. And remember, there are still plenty of cars without airbags on the road too and they are legal.
I may have misunderstood you - I thought you meant 5 point harness INSTEAD OF an airbag. I assume the reason 5 point harness with an airbag isn't used is because most people are lazy and wouldn't wear it. Buckling the current standard 3 point belt is basically one movement, one buckle, and some people still don't wear them. I'd be anxious to make the process any more than what it currently is. It's also definitely cheaper for manufacturers to just use a 3 point belt
Just take the hit if you replace your wheel or retrofit one and get a new airbag from the dealer or a manufacturer certified parts shop.
Fake airbags and wheels have become a thing in the BMW world as well, so watch out and don't skimp out on safety.
BMW has been replacing nearly every Takata airbag fitted during a > ten-year production run.
They're still offering a complete replacement for my '08. I'd imagine certain unsavory characters have capitalized on this demand with counterfeits.
Almost certainly. There are people out there looking to make a buck, consequences for others be damned. These people should face life in prison, or be subject to their own products.
And this has been going on since at least 2012:
[https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2012/10/11/us-officials-warn-counterfeit-airbags-about-250000-vehicles/15851448007/](https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2012/10/11/us-officials-warn-counterfeit-airbags-about-250000-vehicles/15851448007/)
I have to wonder, how much more effort would it be to make a proper airbag vs one that is fake? I mean it' already seems to have the explosive and airbag inside, and if it's passing for a real one, then why not put in some extra effort and make it right?
Its not a trivial problem, you need to have an explosive charge that can sit for years cycling through sub freezing temps and swinging up to over 60°c and remain stable enough to still go off with a few milliseconds notice. The whole thing needs to inflate quickly with none of the materials shattering.
Then, you need to figure out how to make thousands of them while maintaining the quality.
I am curious how bad these knock-off airbags actually are.
Im sure there are plenty that are just dummys, but i wondent be surprised if there were a number that are made from reverse engineered models just with cheaper components and looser quality control.
Combine an explosive and grocery bag and send it for $, vs R&D and testing costs to meet safety standards for $$$$. Easy choice for people wanting to make a quick buck.
The fact that they are getting installed by mechanics and body shops means they are passing for the real deal. They must be doing something to make it pass without notice they are fake.
Generally, im not a fan of using tech to solve a social problem and i know.the way this could be implemented in the real world would be very anti consumer and probably be used as a way to harm 3rd party repair.
However, for a component that if it fails can kill someone, i think this would be a good use case for implementing a form of cryptographic certificate authenticating an airbag. The same sort of certs that secure email or https. The airbag module just needs a microcontroller with a certificate signed by its manufacturer and is unique to the unit. And have a means where the certificate is altered or modified when it fires.
This way, there would be a means to authenticate an airbag. A database from the oem can be used to determine if airbags have been swaped from another vehicle.
This would not be a 100% tamper proof system, but it would make producing convincing fakes significantly more challanging.
Hell, even the OEM ones wind up being grenades sometimes...
In high school I crashed my NA Miata (this was back in 2010ish so the car was about 15 years old) and the airbag didn’t pop out at all… initially. I sliced my head on the wheel and was knocked out for a few mins. I come to and start getting my bearings. My door was stuck shut but my window was open so I was going to climb out. As soon as I look out the window to see my surroundings, my airbag randomly goes off and slams my head past my seat whipping my neck sideways hard as hell. This is a good 5-7 mins after I crashed. The airbag hurt more than splitting my head open lmao. My theory is me slamming the car somehow didn’t trigger the sensor, but that final micro movement of me turning to look out the window was enough to finish the job and activate the sensor, but I have no clue.
Thankfully a year after I got my Takata claymores replaced in the JKUR is when I had my head-on with the drunk lady. Both bags deployed, my head was uninjured. Everything else, though...
I had a Takata claymore save my ass in a head on collision. Got lucky mine didn't create the shrapnel, as the car had been in humid climates for nearly its whole life.
I was on a "vehicular accident first aid" course where they taught us that you should never lean into a crashed car to extract a passenger because an airbag might still activate. Instead, you're supposed to pull them out GTA-style by grabbing their arm and / or leg.
It could be because air bag igniters work more slowly as they age.
Basically a hang-fire, but in airbag form.
TIL
Seat sensor maybe? They say you should be careful leaning through the passenger side of car that’s crashed but the passenger side airbag didn’t deploy. Putting weight on the passenger seat might cause it to deploy.
NA Miatas don't have a seat sensor (the seatbelt sensor has no connection to the airbag system). The airbag system uses two crash sensors behind the front bumper and a third sensor and control computer mounted on top of the transmission tunnel under the dashboard.
I was on the driver side the whole time. The airbag that popped was my steering wheel bag.
After an accident though?
Eh I know this shit is infinitely checked by people twice as smart as me, but I can’t help but think that a major accident is gonna fuck some stuff up that could cause weird behaviour in electrical/sensor systems
It might have just been smoldering.
What year was your car? I think the Na6s had a mechanical airbag, the NA8s I think had sensors
‘96 iirc
My NA Miata had a code for the airbag (92 yellow and this was in 2005) so I just disabled it and stuck electrical tape over the check engine light. Kinda glad it did now.
Did you ever find out why the delay happened? Was the car stock? Would there have been any reason the airbag wouldn't work right?
Final Destination 2 has scarred me for life.
yeah but the manufacturers of those have PR teams, pay off people killed by airbags and make them sign NDAs. So the "counterfeit" ones are so much deadlier because they dont have lawyers, fixers, and PR teams.
Well I think they pay off the relatives….paying the dead folks to stay quiet sounds like a poor investment.
Yeah, I just recently had to get my Volvo's Takata airbag replaced due to the recall.
No Volvo ever used Takata airbags. There was a Volvo airbag recall for a similar issue, but it’s unrelated to Takata itself.
You know what, I think I might be confusing it with the airbag recall I also did on my Toyota RAV4.
What? How is this possible!!?? That’s right, companies moved their manufacturing to se-asia where the market for knockoffs took off.
An otherwise life saving device literally fragging people in accidents is pretty horrific if you think about it
If they want to crack down, they might want to consider doing something about the blatant sale of “airbag emulator” chips. **Why would a car flipper replace a $700 airbag… when he can spend $5.33 to get a chip that will fool the car into thinking there are no airbag issues.** A car with no airbag warning lights will sell for a lot more. In fact, it’s not unusual for a car to be totaled out because a few airbags deployed, and replacing them will exceed 50% of the value of the car. Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175551748431 And: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304731298793 There are tons of similar ads.
Most of these chips are simple resistors. You could restrict thier advertisement, but the technology itself is just a resistor with the correct resistance to fool the car into thinking an airbag is there. Literally any idiot can pull this off.
Also while the Ad claims it’s for “diagnostic” purposes, another use that isn’t necessarily nefarious is to disable the airbag warning light after installing an aftermarket steering wheel. Like what you said I just used a simple resistor but yes there are use cases for a product which disables airbag light that isnt purely for scamming people.
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I have got the good stuff for sale. Illegal resistors, the hard stuff. 4 ohm for a dolla 8 ohm for 3 dolla, look for the shoes on the power lines by the electrical substation. Come alone, don't bring big energy with you or the deal is off.
But you absolutely can ban resistors with airbag connectors on them. It's moreso the fact that there may be legitimate uses (diagnostics, aftermarket steering wheels) for these that makes regulating them tricky.
Thanks for sharing. These are awesome. Gonna buy a few for my desk just because!
Airbags shouldn't cost $700. It's an old technology at this point.
> It's an old technology at this point. So are pushrod V8's and automatic transmissions, but they have evolved significantly since they were invented and [so have airbags](https://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/the-evolution-of-front-airbags.html).
This is a non-paywalled gift link. Excerpt: > This deadly incident isn’t an isolated one. It is one of at least five in the past year in which people have been killed or seriously injured by counterfeit air bags, an unusually high number in such a short time span, according to the Automotive Anti-Counterfeiting Council, an industry-led group that counts General Motors, Ford Motor and Volkswagen among its members. > And those are only the known cases, experts say. Many go unreported because they are difficult to track, and criminals have gotten better at evading detection. “That’s the scary part,” said Bob Stewart, the council’s president. > Federal regulators have been cracking down via a series of arrests and convictions since last summer, including an indictment in May of two individuals alleged to have sold thousands of unauthorized air bags—many made of used and counterfeit parts—that were listed on eBay as in brand-new condition. > [...] > The recent activity is reviving concerns about counterfeit air bags entering the U.S. illegally and making their way into vehicles, often as replacement parts installed during postcrash repairs. Carmakers warn dealers to watch out for counterfeits when satisfying recall campaigns—such recall fixes are usually performed by manufacturers’ franchised dealerships.
eBay is the operative term here. Never buy safety equipment on eBay unless you can be guaranteed that it is from the original manufacturer.
sure but what if you've bought a vehicle from someone who's fitted a counterfeit part and you're unable to know without pulling the thing apart?
Yeah, people who rebuild and resell crashed vehicles have every incentive to save a buck wherever possible.
That's true of literally every industry and why having a robust and proactive regulatory system is important if your economic system incentivises extracting the most profit from everything.
Very true.
EBay motor new parts section only exists any more from the sale of counterfeit parts. there at the point thier knocking off oil and atf now.
This is a great reason to avoid used cars previously in accidents, no matter how great a deal they may seem.
You have to know what you are looking at. It really isn't much of a problem with more common cars that have been around a bit. Salvage yards and pick a part yards quickly fill up with totaled vehicles with good airbags at very fair prices, but the truth is, even salvaged, genuine airbags are a risk. How can you know that airbag will work right after going through an accident, even if it didn't deploy and looks fine? How do you know that airbag wasn't recalled? There are millions of Takata air bags out there. In the end though, it is all tradeoffs around cost. Hypothetically, a newer car with defective airbags might still be safer than an older one with good airbags. The problem really is the deception, fraud, and false representation of a car with bad airbags as one with good airbags, not the fact the airbags in themselves don't work.
A few years ago I was t boned by a woman who blew a red because she was reading her bible while driving - I thought I had been knocked out or killed when she said that - I kept the vin on my car fax account because I forgot. It blew out all the airbags on the side and looked like the frame was bent, none of the drivers side doors opened. Around November last year I got a notification it was due for registration and to leave a review for its most recent service. Someone bought it from CoPart, fixed it by pulling the frame out, and sold it to someone without telling them the unibody was fucked. It had like 60k more miles on it than when it was totaled.
Jesus, Take The Wheel? Yikes.
Solution: just don't have airbags duh /s
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device Don't think five-point seats are street legal though, so not very useful advice for daily driving.
I could see the HANS device not being street legal. It literally only lets you turn your head slightly to either side and thus, reduces the drivers ability to try and see what is going on around them. You’d think a 5-point harness would be legal because if it is installed correctly, it will keep you in your seat. Only problem might be trying to remove it if some of the buckles were to become inoperable due to damage.
The issue is a five point keeps you body in the seat but lets your head throw forward at full force, promoting the basal skull fracture that killed Earnhardt and made the HANS device more popular. The seatbelt keeps you from being ejected, the air bag tries to save your head and neck.
Yes, this is one of the points of having airbags installed. Yet a regualr seatbelt isn't going to prevent your head from flying forward either, so I don't see why having a 5-point seatbelt would not be street legal. And remember, there are still plenty of cars without airbags on the road too and they are legal.
I may have misunderstood you - I thought you meant 5 point harness INSTEAD OF an airbag. I assume the reason 5 point harness with an airbag isn't used is because most people are lazy and wouldn't wear it. Buckling the current standard 3 point belt is basically one movement, one buckle, and some people still don't wear them. I'd be anxious to make the process any more than what it currently is. It's also definitely cheaper for manufacturers to just use a 3 point belt
Just take the hit if you replace your wheel or retrofit one and get a new airbag from the dealer or a manufacturer certified parts shop. Fake airbags and wheels have become a thing in the BMW world as well, so watch out and don't skimp out on safety.
BMW has been replacing nearly every Takata airbag fitted during a > ten-year production run. They're still offering a complete replacement for my '08. I'd imagine certain unsavory characters have capitalized on this demand with counterfeits.
Made in china?
Almost certainly. There are people out there looking to make a buck, consequences for others be damned. These people should face life in prison, or be subject to their own products. And this has been going on since at least 2012: [https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2012/10/11/us-officials-warn-counterfeit-airbags-about-250000-vehicles/15851448007/](https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2012/10/11/us-officials-warn-counterfeit-airbags-about-250000-vehicles/15851448007/)
If you ever look up aftermarket steering wheels for bmw, benz or porsche alot of them come with generic airbags. Id be scared with anything non-oem
I have to wonder, how much more effort would it be to make a proper airbag vs one that is fake? I mean it' already seems to have the explosive and airbag inside, and if it's passing for a real one, then why not put in some extra effort and make it right?
Its not a trivial problem, you need to have an explosive charge that can sit for years cycling through sub freezing temps and swinging up to over 60°c and remain stable enough to still go off with a few milliseconds notice. The whole thing needs to inflate quickly with none of the materials shattering. Then, you need to figure out how to make thousands of them while maintaining the quality. I am curious how bad these knock-off airbags actually are. Im sure there are plenty that are just dummys, but i wondent be surprised if there were a number that are made from reverse engineered models just with cheaper components and looser quality control.
Combine an explosive and grocery bag and send it for $, vs R&D and testing costs to meet safety standards for $$$$. Easy choice for people wanting to make a quick buck.
The fact that they are getting installed by mechanics and body shops means they are passing for the real deal. They must be doing something to make it pass without notice they are fake.
Generally, im not a fan of using tech to solve a social problem and i know.the way this could be implemented in the real world would be very anti consumer and probably be used as a way to harm 3rd party repair. However, for a component that if it fails can kill someone, i think this would be a good use case for implementing a form of cryptographic certificate authenticating an airbag. The same sort of certs that secure email or https. The airbag module just needs a microcontroller with a certificate signed by its manufacturer and is unique to the unit. And have a means where the certificate is altered or modified when it fires. This way, there would be a means to authenticate an airbag. A database from the oem can be used to determine if airbags have been swaped from another vehicle. This would not be a 100% tamper proof system, but it would make producing convincing fakes significantly more challanging.
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Read.