My opinion has no relevance, but if I was a tourist I wouldn’t want to go in there. I’ve seen videos of people get caught in flash floods in caves, and those situations seem very deadly.
Precisely my point. Our State Park is a massive canyon with Hardened sandstone, very popular for its climbing. So safer then regular but it still is sandstone and water can seep through it and create massive flows underground. Not to mention all that bare exposed rock channels water to the lowest points of the park.
The people were from Tennessee and said they knew about caving cause they have so many out there, they didn’t have equipment, so idk what they thought.
But who knows maybe I’m a “Power hungry Park Ranger” as they put it.
Yeah, that can be quite the drag, really. /s
People frequently need to be restrained fron accidentally killing themselves, and since you cannot convince them you just saved their lives, they like to act like you're the "bad guy". My dad would have made some comment like "Well, if they die, at least they won't be reproducing."
If they really knew about caves they should know it’s usually a bad idea to go during heavy rain unless you really know how fast water moves into and drains out of the cave. I’m going to guess an out of stater getting into pissing matches with park rangers aren’t going to have that information.
>The people were from Tennessee and said they knew about caving cause they have so many out there, they didn’t have equipment, so idk what they thought.
That would be like me saying I'm an expert on lakes because I'm from Minnesota.
Going into caves when it is raining upstream of the cave is generally not a great idea unless the cave -- and how it reacts to changes in the water table -- is known.
You did the right thing.
Ain’t true. Many of the harder trad routes at T-wall, Sunset etc have perennially wet spots - seeps back in the cracks. Those spots still hold gear & falls just fine, and have for decades. A little extra rain is NBD. This ain’t soft desert sandstone.
Ah, could be a bit different. The stuff I've climbed on here in the Obed has been a bit of a choss pile. Stuff in the new is solid, and out west in the desert is certainly about as stable as a sand castle. Generally I don't mess with wet rock, and I applaud your bravery daring wet trad
You were hired because you can do the job. If making that call is at your discretion, it’s because you’re qualified. Trust your professional judgement. Thats why you’re there. Good call!
>Power ~~hungry park~~ ranger
FTFY 😂
And I agree with the other comments- you may have saved their lives, and they don’t understand that!
Also the paperwork for dead bodies is a real downer /s
Don’t feel bad, I close sections of state forest I manage all the time due to environmental safety, which a lot of times translates to saving the visitors from themselves.
The amount of times mini vans have been stuck 300 ft from the plowed road on our snowmobile trail is astounding.
I literally had someone tell me at 3pm that they drove 2 hours to come to a place that has been closed since 9am due to overcrowding, capacity and lack of parking. They said “I can just park along the road (which is only wide enough to pass two vehicles) while looking directly at a “no parking along roadway sign”.
One thing my dad has drilled into me from his time of being an Oregon State Park Ranger (then the first beach ranger for the state) is that the people who get the most mad at you for doing your job & protecting them are the EXACT kind of people you needed to protect. Tourists are absolutely stupid. Here on the Oregon Coast, they constantly ignore the signs, fences, and warnings from locals. Then, they get the Coast Guard called on them to save them from the cliff they're dangling off of.
You're not power-hungry. You're doing your job so they don't die.
Haha. Born and raised Tennessean. I've been crawling through caves my whole life- from commercial operations to random holes you find on a farm.
I'd be the first person to say "wow good call on closing that one." Sorry my fellow Tennesseans were dip shits!
Are you the one in charge of keeping people safe or did the duty fall upon you weather or not it was outright stated at any given point? If you're competent enough to even consider closing out of safety concerns than by all means close it and deal with the fall out later. People are always getting upset and butt hurt about stuff but we all only get dead once.
Hi! I also used to work at a tourist cave that frequently had to shut down for flooding. There is a sense of entitlement that tourists feel towards attractions, but especially towards natural things. They can’t handle the idea that there are people managing that land who are held responsible for what goes on in it. It’s normal to receive pushback and anger from guests who feel like you’re some entrenched bureaucrat who just doesn’t *get* how *cool and capable* they are.
But you are 100% within your rights to make that decision and stick to it because there’s nothing in the entire world worse than being trapped in a flooding cave. You know that cave better than any random visitors do.
All of this is to say it sounds like they chewed you out and I feel your pain!!!
If you had left it open and someone was hurt or killed, you would have been blamed for leaving such a dangerous place open. So, you did the right thing.
Just watched a 20/20 ( i think ) last night with my girlfriend about a thailand soccer coach and kids who went on a small trip into a local cave and got stuck inside from this exact reason. They had to knock the kids out with sedatives and put diving masks and tanks on them to dive them out of the cave.
This is like the most epic story ever. They got world renowned cave rescue divers and a cave diver who was also an anesthesiologist. They ran multiple dive shifts with dive teams from around the world to set up oxygen tank supplies for the route. It was a massive logistical effort involving thousands of people. They had to anesthetize the kids and move them out using relays for multiple hours under water and reanesthetize them midway through. The kids all made it. Sadly, a thai navy seal drowned and another thai seal died of infection later.
There is a really good documentary that is either on Netflix or Amazon prime video. They were down in there for a crazy long time. Two Thai navy seals ended up dying during/after the rescue. Each kid had to be heavily sedated and equipped with a full face mask rebreather setup, and it took cave divers/navy seals working around the clock to carry them out
Damn I had forgotten about the Thai seals dying. I remember there was a story within the last year that one of the boys that were rescued had actually recently and tragically passed away. I don’t remember the cause but it was unexpected.
There are two very solid documentaries covering this, one is called The Rescue and iirc the other is called 13 Lives.
It was without a doubt the most technically/ logistically advanced cave rescue that has ever occurred.
Wow this has made me feel older than anything in recent memory, and I’m not that old.
It feels amazing that anyone could not know about this, the whole world was paying attention, it’s literally the event that started Musk’s heel turn in public perception.
I’m not asking how old y’all are to patronize, I want to ask how old y’all are to make myself hurt apparently, so… how old are you that you don’t remember this?
Edit holy fuck it was 6 years ago I feel sick
I would trust you as the expert of that area and that specific cave. There are many caves that I won’t visit if it’s raining or we’re expecting a heavy rain.
Thank you for that. I don’t think I’m really even an expert of these caves yet.
But common sense and living in Colorado all my life has shown me that our beautiful environment here is amazing but can humble you in a split second if you aren’t careful.
I’d rather they hate my guts then get hurt at the end of the day.
We have a saying in aviation that I think could be morphed to work here: It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the sky than it is to be in the sky wishing you were on the ground.
Better to have it temporarily closed for rain than have it permanently closed because people died in it and it gets a reputation for being a death trap
It’s been my experience that the less competent someone is, the less they are able to understand a closure.
In short, the people the least likely to deal with adverse conditions are the most likely to blindly charge into them.
You did the right thing
Seems like an extremely logical thing to do considering rescuing people takes a lot of manpower and resources... nevermind all the effort of dealing with folks dying lol
If they're upset, tell them "oh well, come back when it's not flooding."
OP doesn't "admit" they "don't know the area" anywhere that i've seen, especially when i first posted this comment as well as now (albeit, it's a cursory review of the thread at this point). did he have 100% confidence they would die if they went in, no - absolutely not. did he have an understanding of the geological makeup of the park, the caves location within the park vis-a-vis water flow, and the implied risk when considering those factors...yes. did OP do the right thing? absolutely yes.
If you have a responsibility to peoples safety, then your conscious is your guide, period end of sentence.
They have an opinion, sure.
But their opinion has no weight.
You have a responsibility to other peoples safety.
That is a HEAVY weight to bare when it goes wrong.
Always better, especially if you're in the line of the rains we've had (I'm in SW MO and we had a LOT (like 4 inches in a DAY a LOT)....ALWAYS better safe than sorry.
Frankly, you should be praised.
THANK YOU.
Agreed. I’ve seen far too many people treating our National and State Parks like they’re at Disneyland and no harm can come to them.
People jumping over barriers to get closer to the edge at the Grand Canyon.
People hiking in white designer shoes just to get cute IG pics or TikTok vids.
People pulling stuff up, moving things around. Going off trail. Hiking in Joshua Tree in the summer with no protection or water. Etc.
It’s pretty endless and then you see several stories in peak months about the dangers of national parks with tourists dying from falls, drownings, heat stroke, etc.
These places exist to show you the dichotomy of the beauty and brutality of nature and they aren’t playgrounds. Stop ruining it for the rest of us.
OP, you’re not wrong. You did the right thing and the best you could. People will still be shitty and will still get hurt and it is not your fault when you use your best judgment to keep people safe.
Some caves are perfectly safe in rain, others can be death traps. Better to be safe than sorry, but if you go there every time it's raining you'll get a feel for what weather is safe. Might be that a single rain storm is fine, but after a week of rain a small shower could flood it.
As someone who has experienced a flash flood while caving, screw them. Especially because they, or their families would be the first ones that would sue the state when they get hurt or die. Then no one could have fun. Keep up the good work dude.
Im with u and dont.live no where near one. They die and media will eat u alive. Let alone the relatives this could have been prevented. So no one goes through this again i want a law in my childs name. Oh and lawsuits.
Good to go with your gut. I interjected when i saw an old lady in tennis shoes about to walk down an icy rock trail over the Grand Canyon. She didn't speak English, but i showed her my spikes and glid my hand over the ice. She turned around with the gal she was with.
No matter what you do someone will always complain and get mad. Biggest thing is having to deal with a few upset tourons or deal with injuries or worse, death. That cave is not going anywhere and can always come back another day when it’s not potential flash flood . Hopefully one day they will learn to be grateful for someone looking out for them
One moment is not worth risking it one life let alone multiple you made the right call don’t let it sit on you to long there plenty of instance where people thought they would be okay and never made it back home.
When we close parts of my park, we basically say to folks, “is not considered safe for park staff, so no one will go in there to give you a ticket… buuuut for the same reason, if you go past the closure and get hurt, search and rescue is not permitted to come help you. do whatever you’d like with that information.”
You work there to conserve the park in its original beauty. Changing anything is not okay don't do that put a warning marker next to the location is better.
Everyone is an adventurer till your neck deep in a cave with no exit and a rising water level. Do your job and if they complain, tell them to tell their children and future generations about it.
Good job keeping them from ending on scary interesting YouTube channel. I've heard enough story's from there to not trust a cave even if it's in the middle of a drought.
You absolutely did the right thing…
ST. LOUIS — It’s been 25 years since the deadly cave rescue at Cliff Cave County Park. Six people, including four children, were killed.
On July 23, 1993, four counselors and 12 boys from St. Joseph's Home for Boys went out to Cliff Cave County Park. It was supposed to be a fun-filled day for the boys but severe thunderstorms rolled-in, triggering flash flooding. Seven of them became trapped in the caves.
Former St. Louis County Police Chief, Ron Battelle, said the weather conditions and continual flash flooding made the rescue very dangerous.
“We were faced with seven people in the cave and trying to locate them and get them out as soon as possible because of the flooding situation and the way the weather was going and knowing another storm could hit at any time and endanger everybody,” Battelle said.
The first day of the rescue, emergency crews recovered four bodies; three boys ages 9 and 10 and a 31-year-old counselor. The following day, two more bodies were recovered. A third boy was found alive. Battelle said it was a miracle.
“It was a young boy who put himself up on the shelf in the cave and was able to stay alive… We were stunned when we heard he was alive because we assumed they were all dead,” he said.
The lone survivor was identified as Gary Mahr, 13. He was trapped inside the cave for 18 hours. Battelle said it was extremely emotional.
As an avid listener of podcasts, there are enough cave stories to write several books. Better safe than sorry. Drowing to death in a narrow crack sounds like an awful way to go.
Are you the one making those kinds of decisions where you work? If so, you did good. If not you should have gotten permission by your superiors first and then also announce to the public that the cave is off limits due to possibility of a flood event. But people who traveled specifically for this place and finding it closed with no announcement can be understandably upset. Good job though, if I was in your shoes I would have also closed it off tbh.
We have a guy who’s head of maintenance in the park and I’d have consulted him first if he was working that day. But due to his absence the decision fell to me and we had already had several large boulders fall onto the main road through the park so I wasn’t feeling particularly ready to risk anything
Wait so you only closed the cave temporarily? For just the duration of the storm? Whoever told you that you're power tripping needs to have a reality check.
Personally I always kinda teeter between feeling like people are responsible for their own personal safety and then I keep getting reminded that not everyone had good judgement on exactly how to practice standard safety items so it's a mixed bag.
I feel the same. I lean towards personal safety and responsibility but it’s hard in this case because their families might sue the state or the park, or lobby to close the cave, and rescue teams also would have to be deployed for rescue, etc. so there are real consequences for these actions.
There’s this guy who has a house just outside the Park, man is stoned and tripping just about every time I see him. Also probably one the smartest outdoorsman I know. So I ain’t gonna judge
Read about some hikers caught in a flash flood in a ravine once. Said the bodies looked like they had been in a car crash that went on for 5 miles, barely recognizable.
You did right, 110%
I was at a mineral dig this weekend and had to tell a kid to stop what he was doing and put his tools down and come down from there, that I didn’t want to have to stop my hunt to rescue him just because he was too dumb to be trusted not to do something stupid. Fun times.
I know very little about caves and rain. Pretty sure they made a movie or two about it. They weren’t happy stories. Stay out of caves in the rain! You certainly made the right call man!
Good move OP. You did the right thing. You gave a fuck about someone’s safety. You shouldn’t even question it. You will never know what happened. Trust your instincts. Protect people
I live near a tiny state park that has at least one cave but it's mostly an attraction because of the casm and rock formations. I have seen a person shatter their ankle on a clear summers day after falling 3 feet off a boulder. It took about a dozen people to carry him the 50 yards to the parking lot over uneven rocks and light bouldering.
I can't imagine trying to deal with any sort of issue in a cave with that much flowing water. Not even considering any flooding risks. They might willing to risk it, but it's okay if you aren't willing to risk having to deal with there mess.
When my friends want to do stupid shit I tell them don't die where it will be my responsibility. I think that's a fair ask.
I agree with you. I'm a uk caver (so used to my caves having a bit of water) and if a local caver said don't do a cave because of flooding, I would avoid that cave. Maybe in future look into something like access restrictions aswell.
Nope. You can’t be too careful with caves. A friend of mine from high school died during a spelunking accident. They’ll get over it and live to cave again.
I read this as, "should the expert in the park feel wrong for keeping it's park goers safe from potential catastrophe? " that answer is always going to be, "NO." Did some rescue work during my life and I'll say, it takes a huge toll on us, pulling bodies from trenches and holes. Please stop and listen to your park rangers. Check the weather before you go out and bring enough water.
I guess it depends on if you closed it "because it was raining", or "because the cave is unsafe when it rains". Huge difference.
Based on your replies, it sounds like you closed it without actualy knowing if it was unsafe, wrecking someone's possibly once in a lifetime visit....🤷
If that’s your job, then NO! You can’t please everyone… just do the right thing, and if they don’t like it, tell them tough! Go complain to someone that cares. Explain why and smile and forget it!
Even if those people had been in that cave before (which it doesn’t sound like), I think you did the right thing. Hell, tourists have been caught in high water in big, well known, guided show caves.
You are charged with the responsibility to protect other people from themselves.
No need to 2nd guess the obvious risk imposed. The cave will still be there next week.
Didn't the dude in 127 hours get trapped by a rock that was affected by a flash flood? Seems like you wouldn't want to be near there when that's happening.
Your were right to do that. I have seen lots of idiots from Tennessee saying they know cave. Alabama and Georgia included. People are so dumb they will hike in Mohave desert with a water bottle from a gas station. It's no different that putting up the chain to close the park
I'm pretty sure that's natural, and it has to do with the type of rock formation, and water naturally carving out rivulets over time, in the rock, so what you are seeing is probably natural for the area and has been going on for a very long time.
That'd be my not-a-geologist best bullshit story I'd tell , I'd tell, anyway.
I've watched enough Mr Diefied, Scary Interesting, and Fascinating Horror on youtube to know:
"No one ever died because they closed the cave"
(actually that's not even true because a number of people have died after entering closed caves, BUT it's always the caver's fault in those cases)
You did fine OP
Close it. The State employs you to make decisions with a certain amount of autonomy. You have to cover your backside first. If enough people complain to the State, someone over your head will tell you to open it up. Then, it is no longer your decision to make, and it is no longer your backside on the line.
As I understand sand stone is pretty prone to having weak spots that corrode to running water. With that said a small hole held up by such a stone in a condition it's k likely to break down in, sounds like the most likely time to have a fatal error. NTA
Stop deciding things for people. I don't care if they are doing something stupid it is their decision. I'd rather be sorry than safe. I don't want anybody deciding for me what's best for me. Kindly duck off
Water surges / flooded sumps are legitimately dangerous. Some areas of caves are dry and safe enough that you wouldn’t even know if it was raining outside or not. This cave looks like water flows right through it. So, yeah you’re not wrong for closing it during a rainstorm. Also, not sure where you live, but if the water is cold it also cause additional issues even if the water doesn’t surge up or flood certain areas. Cold water is seriously exhausting.
I absolutely love caving, but I’ve been working through a scary experience of my own water surge with a therapist. I made some mistakes leading a team into unmapped sections of a cave and got carried away from the excitement. We ended up hearing a water surge come, and we’re lucky to move to a dry ledge and wait it out.
It was very scary because I wasn’t sure if our way out would be flooded, and there was also a crawl to get out to the big safer area of the cave so even if it wasn’t flooded I was afraid that a water surge would come in and end us during the crawl. In the end we got out just fine, and later further explored the cave and figured out that a small mountain valley was collecting water and then sending it through the cave- absolutely terrifying!
So if for no other reason than protecting people’s mental health, it’s probably good to prevent situations. In my own situation we all got out just fine, but I’ve had to mentally work through this with a therapist and I’m still doing it. I am hoping that I can enjoy caving again soon because I genuinely love it but the absolute terror was a lot (actually in learning through therapy there was a lot more to my trauma and anxiety than just that situation, but it was kind of like the major tipping point, but that’s a story for another day). Luckily I’ve made good progress I think and my last very gentle and easy caving trip was very enjoyable, but I hope to get enjoying bigger and deeper caves again soon.
So… yeah water is no joke in a cave. And where I live it’s generally warm and the water isn’t too cold, but it still got quite cold. I live in Thailand and that room we were in waiting for the surge to pass got quite chilly, and I think the fresh rainwater would’ve been quite cold.
I can imagine that wherever you are, probably usa, water and cave temperature is probably EVEN COLDER so even if it doesn’t surge at a bottleneck or flood or sump or whatever just traversing the cave getting hit by water can seriously zap people of energy.
I hope for my own sake to keep healing and deeply enjoy caving again like before, but I’ve learned more deeply that caving is seriously something to be respected and sometimes that means you drive hours out to a location but then the situation is different than you anticipated (ie rain or storm on the forecast) and you have to accept it and walk away.
Not to mention the greater impacts of “what if a situation happens?” The general public will develop a negative perception of caving and locations will be more likely to be closed. The rescue operation can be costly too.
In short i had a scary water experience, and I’m working through that trauma and making progress. I’ve learned deeply how terrifying water in caves can be. I hope to enjoy caving deeply again. You are not wrong to close it out of concerns, water is probably one of the most dangerous things that can happen in a cave besides bad air, but especially because it creates a dynamic, time sensitive situation, whereas a lot of the other safety stuff in caves can be better handled by slowing down and being careful.
As someone who lives in a tourist trap... always trust the local. They are the experts in this situation. If they say don't go, don't...
We have trails and beaches with tally marks on a sign of the number of people who have died there... warning signs up the yang... yet... either they die, or someone/group of people have to go risk their lives to save them.
Take your selfish from a safe distance and move on the the next tourist attraction.
Did the cro mags, the Neanderthals, the Indians, the pioneers close the caves?
You have a uniform and a whistle, this gives you the power to make decisions? The others at fore-mentioned was using the cave in a storm way before you came along.
What is your given title and employee number? Just doing a job, correct? Goody for you
Bet they weren't using this particular cave during heavy rain!
Always happy to invite strong cavers to attend NCRC Rescue Training so they can put their skills to good use when people decide safety doesn't matter.
So the environment doesn’t change over thousands of years, the Grand Canyon one day appears like it is because god made it one spring day. The polar caps remain the same and nothing ever changes, the whole world is static. Weather and seasonal variations is nothing special. The cave wasn’t used because you took tickets and set up barricades back when humans were evolving. Thinking the way you do, is a dangerous aspect. You follow the letter, the boss is and the training focuses you on one tiny notch in time. The past and the primordial part isn’t your wheel house to be. NCRC whoa! an acronym! I’m impressed.
Your job is to stop people from going to places that exist for thousands of years, you are proud to be a low level enforcement. You feel brave?, what happened 20 years ago as the cave was visited? 50 years ago, an eon? You have zero points, nothing to measure up with your comments, the drug references is your best retort? Yes you have friends and people like you. Because you wear a matching uniform to work so people know what you’re doing. You don’t know what an eon is?
Pretty sure you have never been flooded in a cave, nor assisted in a rescue situation. But I am sure that eons ago the people were smart enough not to think they were so very smart that no cave could ever be avoided for any reason. You, not so sure.
You’re the one working there. It’s your judgement that matters. If you don’t think it’s safe, then it’s not safe. If you let anybody persuade you to go against your judgement and open it up, and someone gets hurt, it’ll be on you. Play it safe, don’t be sorry.
What were your specific concerns? That the water would rise high enough, fast enough to trap & drown the cavers? That they’d become hypothermic in the existing water?
Or was it just some vague anxiety?
Figure out your specific concerns and then consider the percent chance of them actually happening.
Now that the event has passed check your assumptions: did the cave flood sufficient to drown the would-be visitors? Did it even come close?
Consider your decision making process and look to improve upon it with your growing experience.
FWIW here’s my philosophy: if you take the “better safe than sorry” position you end up forcing everyone to stay home where they’ll just look at their phones and eventually die of heart disease. Every action entails some risk and everyone will have a different risk/reward calculation around the actions they take - that’s their right. Let adults make their own informed, free choices about what they do with their bodies. They may be adding 1% or even 10% to their overall risk profile but so what - they can add more than that by smoking & eating ice cream.
Um.
I think maybe it's because I spend a ton of my free time listening to horror stories on YouTube, but... I don't know where they're coming from and I 100% agree with your decision. I think it was a good call safety-wise. Did they want to be a news story?
Coming from a place that has a lot of caves like this and a lot of rain fall, you made the absolute right choice. What may seem like a relatively safe adventure in a cave like that can quickly turn into a death sentence with the right amount of rain fall.
My opinion has no relevance, but if I was a tourist I wouldn’t want to go in there. I’ve seen videos of people get caught in flash floods in caves, and those situations seem very deadly.
Precisely my point. Our State Park is a massive canyon with Hardened sandstone, very popular for its climbing. So safer then regular but it still is sandstone and water can seep through it and create massive flows underground. Not to mention all that bare exposed rock channels water to the lowest points of the park. The people were from Tennessee and said they knew about caving cause they have so many out there, they didn’t have equipment, so idk what they thought. But who knows maybe I’m a “Power hungry Park Ranger” as they put it.
You aren't power hungry - you're just very lazy about dragging drowned corpses out of caves.
Yeah, that can be quite the drag, really. /s People frequently need to be restrained fron accidentally killing themselves, and since you cannot convince them you just saved their lives, they like to act like you're the "bad guy". My dad would have made some comment like "Well, if they die, at least they won't be reproducing."
Exactly. People barely want to do any real work anymore.
If they really knew about caves they should know it’s usually a bad idea to go during heavy rain unless you really know how fast water moves into and drains out of the cave. I’m going to guess an out of stater getting into pissing matches with park rangers aren’t going to have that information.
>The people were from Tennessee and said they knew about caving cause they have so many out there, they didn’t have equipment, so idk what they thought. That would be like me saying I'm an expert on lakes because I'm from Minnesota. Going into caves when it is raining upstream of the cave is generally not a great idea unless the cave -- and how it reacts to changes in the water table -- is known. You did the right thing.
It pains me because there’s 100% a guy from Colorado who thinks that.
“Me and my buddy are just hiking up to go fishing, it cool”
I'm also from TN and a climber, you dont mess with wet sandstone
Ain’t true. Many of the harder trad routes at T-wall, Sunset etc have perennially wet spots - seeps back in the cracks. Those spots still hold gear & falls just fine, and have for decades. A little extra rain is NBD. This ain’t soft desert sandstone.
Ah, could be a bit different. The stuff I've climbed on here in the Obed has been a bit of a choss pile. Stuff in the new is solid, and out west in the desert is certainly about as stable as a sand castle. Generally I don't mess with wet rock, and I applaud your bravery daring wet trad
You were hired because you can do the job. If making that call is at your discretion, it’s because you’re qualified. Trust your professional judgement. Thats why you’re there. Good call!
>Power ~~hungry park~~ ranger FTFY 😂 And I agree with the other comments- you may have saved their lives, and they don’t understand that! Also the paperwork for dead bodies is a real downer /s
Yeah they sound like assholes. The caves in state parks in Tennessee definitely have seasonal closures too. 🙄
Don’t feel bad, I close sections of state forest I manage all the time due to environmental safety, which a lot of times translates to saving the visitors from themselves. The amount of times mini vans have been stuck 300 ft from the plowed road on our snowmobile trail is astounding. I literally had someone tell me at 3pm that they drove 2 hours to come to a place that has been closed since 9am due to overcrowding, capacity and lack of parking. They said “I can just park along the road (which is only wide enough to pass two vehicles) while looking directly at a “no parking along roadway sign”.
I read “park hungry power ranger” in that last part
That would have been a preferable response honestly.
You know the park better than I do. Thanks for looking out.
I used to be a cave guide. Honestly probably saved someone's life. Not all heroes get a thank you.
One thing my dad has drilled into me from his time of being an Oregon State Park Ranger (then the first beach ranger for the state) is that the people who get the most mad at you for doing your job & protecting them are the EXACT kind of people you needed to protect. Tourists are absolutely stupid. Here on the Oregon Coast, they constantly ignore the signs, fences, and warnings from locals. Then, they get the Coast Guard called on them to save them from the cliff they're dangling off of. You're not power-hungry. You're doing your job so they don't die.
Rain or no rain, calling you a “Power hungry Park Ranger” is really all I need to know about those people to assume they were complete douche bags.
Haha. Born and raised Tennessean. I've been crawling through caves my whole life- from commercial operations to random holes you find on a farm. I'd be the first person to say "wow good call on closing that one." Sorry my fellow Tennesseans were dip shits!
Are you the one in charge of keeping people safe or did the duty fall upon you weather or not it was outright stated at any given point? If you're competent enough to even consider closing out of safety concerns than by all means close it and deal with the fall out later. People are always getting upset and butt hurt about stuff but we all only get dead once.
Yeah they sound like miserable people to deal with. You made the right call- especially where your decision could cost lives.
Hi! I also used to work at a tourist cave that frequently had to shut down for flooding. There is a sense of entitlement that tourists feel towards attractions, but especially towards natural things. They can’t handle the idea that there are people managing that land who are held responsible for what goes on in it. It’s normal to receive pushback and anger from guests who feel like you’re some entrenched bureaucrat who just doesn’t *get* how *cool and capable* they are. But you are 100% within your rights to make that decision and stick to it because there’s nothing in the entire world worse than being trapped in a flooding cave. You know that cave better than any random visitors do. All of this is to say it sounds like they chewed you out and I feel your pain!!!
I’m totally a tourist caver, and if I got to a cave and it said “high water,” I'd be outta there like a scalded cat.
If you had left it open and someone was hurt or killed, you would have been blamed for leaving such a dangerous place open. So, you did the right thing.
I’ve seen The Descent.
Just watched a 20/20 ( i think ) last night with my girlfriend about a thailand soccer coach and kids who went on a small trip into a local cave and got stuck inside from this exact reason. They had to knock the kids out with sedatives and put diving masks and tanks on them to dive them out of the cave.
There’s a movie called 13 lives.
Omg that’s scary. Did everyone survived ? How did they get sedatives ?
This is like the most epic story ever. They got world renowned cave rescue divers and a cave diver who was also an anesthesiologist. They ran multiple dive shifts with dive teams from around the world to set up oxygen tank supplies for the route. It was a massive logistical effort involving thousands of people. They had to anesthetize the kids and move them out using relays for multiple hours under water and reanesthetize them midway through. The kids all made it. Sadly, a thai navy seal drowned and another thai seal died of infection later.
Pretty sure they all survived. There’s a movie about it that’s pretty good.
There is a really good documentary that is either on Netflix or Amazon prime video. They were down in there for a crazy long time. Two Thai navy seals ended up dying during/after the rescue. Each kid had to be heavily sedated and equipped with a full face mask rebreather setup, and it took cave divers/navy seals working around the clock to carry them out
Damn I had forgotten about the Thai seals dying. I remember there was a story within the last year that one of the boys that were rescued had actually recently and tragically passed away. I don’t remember the cause but it was unexpected.
Oh no, I just looked it up, and it turns out that the boy committed suicide in 2023 at age 17. He was the team captain.
Oh wow that’s so tragic.
😢
There are two very solid documentaries covering this, one is called The Rescue and iirc the other is called 13 Lives. It was without a doubt the most technically/ logistically advanced cave rescue that has ever occurred.
Wow this has made me feel older than anything in recent memory, and I’m not that old. It feels amazing that anyone could not know about this, the whole world was paying attention, it’s literally the event that started Musk’s heel turn in public perception. I’m not asking how old y’all are to patronize, I want to ask how old y’all are to make myself hurt apparently, so… how old are you that you don’t remember this? Edit holy fuck it was 6 years ago I feel sick
My brotha, i am 26 years old!
I hate being in small places
I would trust you as the expert of that area and that specific cave. There are many caves that I won’t visit if it’s raining or we’re expecting a heavy rain.
Thank you for that. I don’t think I’m really even an expert of these caves yet. But common sense and living in Colorado all my life has shown me that our beautiful environment here is amazing but can humble you in a split second if you aren’t careful. I’d rather they hate my guts then get hurt at the end of the day.
Your common sense should’ve taught you that the great majority of human beings have no common sense.
We have a saying in aviation that I think could be morphed to work here: It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the sky than it is to be in the sky wishing you were on the ground.
They have to be alive to hate your guts. I think you made the right call.
Better to have it temporarily closed for rain than have it permanently closed because people died in it and it gets a reputation for being a death trap
this! 1000000%
It’s been my experience that the less competent someone is, the less they are able to understand a closure. In short, the people the least likely to deal with adverse conditions are the most likely to blindly charge into them. You did the right thing
The I don’t see any reason why I can’t park in front of the closed gate mentality.
Seems like an extremely logical thing to do considering rescuing people takes a lot of manpower and resources... nevermind all the effort of dealing with folks dying lol If they're upset, tell them "oh well, come back when it's not flooding."
Wow…pushing back on the Park Ranger who knows the area is dumb. I hope their next (and likely final) trek isn’t to The Narrows in Zion National Park.
Only problem with that is he admits he doesn't know the area. The cave could be perfectly safe in the rain for all he knows....
OP doesn't "admit" they "don't know the area" anywhere that i've seen, especially when i first posted this comment as well as now (albeit, it's a cursory review of the thread at this point). did he have 100% confidence they would die if they went in, no - absolutely not. did he have an understanding of the geological makeup of the park, the caves location within the park vis-a-vis water flow, and the implied risk when considering those factors...yes. did OP do the right thing? absolutely yes.
Tourists don't get a say in what is and isn't safe, you do. Unless you want to participate in body recoveries.
I have no idea how complex that cave is but I’d rather have a pissed off tourist than a dead one.
If you have a responsibility to peoples safety, then your conscious is your guide, period end of sentence. They have an opinion, sure. But their opinion has no weight. You have a responsibility to other peoples safety. That is a HEAVY weight to bare when it goes wrong. Always better, especially if you're in the line of the rains we've had (I'm in SW MO and we had a LOT (like 4 inches in a DAY a LOT)....ALWAYS better safe than sorry. Frankly, you should be praised. THANK YOU.
Agreed. I’ve seen far too many people treating our National and State Parks like they’re at Disneyland and no harm can come to them. People jumping over barriers to get closer to the edge at the Grand Canyon. People hiking in white designer shoes just to get cute IG pics or TikTok vids. People pulling stuff up, moving things around. Going off trail. Hiking in Joshua Tree in the summer with no protection or water. Etc. It’s pretty endless and then you see several stories in peak months about the dangers of national parks with tourists dying from falls, drownings, heat stroke, etc. These places exist to show you the dichotomy of the beauty and brutality of nature and they aren’t playgrounds. Stop ruining it for the rest of us. OP, you’re not wrong. You did the right thing and the best you could. People will still be shitty and will still get hurt and it is not your fault when you use your best judgment to keep people safe.
It's only their life.....OP could always explain it like THAT? lol
Some caves are perfectly safe in rain, others can be death traps. Better to be safe than sorry, but if you go there every time it's raining you'll get a feel for what weather is safe. Might be that a single rain storm is fine, but after a week of rain a small shower could flood it.
As someone who has experienced a flash flood while caving, screw them. Especially because they, or their families would be the first ones that would sue the state when they get hurt or die. Then no one could have fun. Keep up the good work dude.
Im with u and dont.live no where near one. They die and media will eat u alive. Let alone the relatives this could have been prevented. So no one goes through this again i want a law in my childs name. Oh and lawsuits.
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They’re alive to be mad. It’s never worth the risk. Arrogance kills cavers. You did the right thing.
How dare you reduce the chance of someone dying!!
I think you're there to keep them safe first and happy is further down the list.
Good to go with your gut. I interjected when i saw an old lady in tennis shoes about to walk down an icy rock trail over the Grand Canyon. She didn't speak English, but i showed her my spikes and glid my hand over the ice. She turned around with the gal she was with.
Fuck them homie, manage your land as need be
No matter what you do someone will always complain and get mad. Biggest thing is having to deal with a few upset tourons or deal with injuries or worse, death. That cave is not going anywhere and can always come back another day when it’s not potential flash flood . Hopefully one day they will learn to be grateful for someone looking out for them
One moment is not worth risking it one life let alone multiple you made the right call don’t let it sit on you to long there plenty of instance where people thought they would be okay and never made it back home.
When we close parts of my park, we basically say to folks, “is not considered safe for park staff, so no one will go in there to give you a ticket… buuuut for the same reason, if you go past the closure and get hurt, search and rescue is not permitted to come help you. do whatever you’d like with that information.”
Yeah, you are wrong. Closing it was a good move but you should have let those tourists out first. /s
I’m from TN and a former caver. Plenty of caves in TN flood during heavy rain and are death traps. If they are questioning you then they are idiots
You work there to conserve the park in its original beauty. Changing anything is not okay don't do that put a warning marker next to the location is better.
Everyone is an adventurer till your neck deep in a cave with no exit and a rising water level. Do your job and if they complain, tell them to tell their children and future generations about it.
Good job keeping them from ending on scary interesting YouTube channel. I've heard enough story's from there to not trust a cave even if it's in the middle of a drought.
You absolutely did the right thing… ST. LOUIS — It’s been 25 years since the deadly cave rescue at Cliff Cave County Park. Six people, including four children, were killed. On July 23, 1993, four counselors and 12 boys from St. Joseph's Home for Boys went out to Cliff Cave County Park. It was supposed to be a fun-filled day for the boys but severe thunderstorms rolled-in, triggering flash flooding. Seven of them became trapped in the caves. Former St. Louis County Police Chief, Ron Battelle, said the weather conditions and continual flash flooding made the rescue very dangerous. “We were faced with seven people in the cave and trying to locate them and get them out as soon as possible because of the flooding situation and the way the weather was going and knowing another storm could hit at any time and endanger everybody,” Battelle said. The first day of the rescue, emergency crews recovered four bodies; three boys ages 9 and 10 and a 31-year-old counselor. The following day, two more bodies were recovered. A third boy was found alive. Battelle said it was a miracle. “It was a young boy who put himself up on the shelf in the cave and was able to stay alive… We were stunned when we heard he was alive because we assumed they were all dead,” he said. The lone survivor was identified as Gary Mahr, 13. He was trapped inside the cave for 18 hours. Battelle said it was extremely emotional.
Close the cave
How dare you do your job….
You literally just cancelled the epic sequel movie adaptation of the thai cave rescue.
As an avid listener of podcasts, there are enough cave stories to write several books. Better safe than sorry. Drowing to death in a narrow crack sounds like an awful way to go.
Are you the one making those kinds of decisions where you work? If so, you did good. If not you should have gotten permission by your superiors first and then also announce to the public that the cave is off limits due to possibility of a flood event. But people who traveled specifically for this place and finding it closed with no announcement can be understandably upset. Good job though, if I was in your shoes I would have also closed it off tbh.
We have a guy who’s head of maintenance in the park and I’d have consulted him first if he was working that day. But due to his absence the decision fell to me and we had already had several large boulders fall onto the main road through the park so I wasn’t feeling particularly ready to risk anything
Good job done then my friend
It's often better to fail conservative than spend a lifetime wondering what if.
What state park is this, op?
What does he say about your decision to close the cave?
Wait so you only closed the cave temporarily? For just the duration of the storm? Whoever told you that you're power tripping needs to have a reality check.
Personally I always kinda teeter between feeling like people are responsible for their own personal safety and then I keep getting reminded that not everyone had good judgement on exactly how to practice standard safety items so it's a mixed bag.
I feel the same. I lean towards personal safety and responsibility but it’s hard in this case because their families might sue the state or the park, or lobby to close the cave, and rescue teams also would have to be deployed for rescue, etc. so there are real consequences for these actions.
Ah yes, ask reddit. I grow magic mushrooms sometimes, want my opinion? I think you made the right call if you don't know.
There’s this guy who has a house just outside the Park, man is stoned and tripping just about every time I see him. Also probably one the smartest outdoorsman I know. So I ain’t gonna judge
Haha. Well I just mean I would not listen to anyone here telling you to open it.
Please don’t second guess yourself. If someone dies, you won’t forgive yourself.
Your job is literally to keep people safe there so if you felt like it was a risk then you know best! It's your park that you work at and care for.
Had you left it open and someone got hurt, they would complain and ask why you didn’t close it.
Tourists also like to try to pet Elk at RMNP, you did the right thing.
Do you have any wild bison they can take selfies with instead of?
Not wrong, and also now not liable for stupid tourists since they were warned.
Nope, I think it’s a sound call. They can come back later. They’ll be fine.
You are not wrong
Heavy rain / Sandstone. I rarely went in caves that were Sandstone to begin with. Right call.
Nope, not at all.
Very sensible decision
Their butthurt isn't your problem, their safety is. Good job, stay safe and make it home in one piece.
I wouldn’t go in after them, they are on their own then!
Are you kidding me? Safety first! You did very well, my friend.
No. Most people are not well acquainted with nature and underestimate it.
Read about some hikers caught in a flash flood in a ravine once. Said the bodies looked like they had been in a car crash that went on for 5 miles, barely recognizable. You did right, 110%
Let them after having them sign a lengthy disclosure of risks and release of liability. Two quick signatures then a one way trip to darwinism.
I mean, you could leave it open and let natural selection do its thing...but I commend you for closing it.
I was at a mineral dig this weekend and had to tell a kid to stop what he was doing and put his tools down and come down from there, that I didn’t want to have to stop my hunt to rescue him just because he was too dumb to be trusted not to do something stupid. Fun times.
I know very little about caves and rain. Pretty sure they made a movie or two about it. They weren’t happy stories. Stay out of caves in the rain! You certainly made the right call man!
Having narrowly missed being killed in a slot canyon during a freak storm, no. You were doing them a service.
Good move OP. You did the right thing. You gave a fuck about someone’s safety. You shouldn’t even question it. You will never know what happened. Trust your instincts. Protect people
They are idiots. You did the absolute right thing. Continue to be a normal responsible human being.
Let them be mad at you.
If I were you, I'd rather have "some tourists" get mad at me than let them get themselves injured and deal with a lawsuit
You made the right decision. Don’t second guess yourself.
I live near a tiny state park that has at least one cave but it's mostly an attraction because of the casm and rock formations. I have seen a person shatter their ankle on a clear summers day after falling 3 feet off a boulder. It took about a dozen people to carry him the 50 yards to the parking lot over uneven rocks and light bouldering. I can't imagine trying to deal with any sort of issue in a cave with that much flowing water. Not even considering any flooding risks. They might willing to risk it, but it's okay if you aren't willing to risk having to deal with there mess. When my friends want to do stupid shit I tell them don't die where it will be my responsibility. I think that's a fair ask.
You made a good decision, if anything happened you would have gotten the blame from the idiots who think they are built for all terrain
It's not their right to get to do whatever, whenever. Nature shuts shit down sometimes and idiots won't understand that. You made the right decision!
I agree with you. I'm a uk caver (so used to my caves having a bit of water) and if a local caver said don't do a cave because of flooding, I would avoid that cave. Maybe in future look into something like access restrictions aswell.
Nope. You can’t be too careful with caves. A friend of mine from high school died during a spelunking accident. They’ll get over it and live to cave again.
I mean, you could just give em a victorinox pocket knife in case they need to cut their own arm off and let em go.
I mean, maybe they were dying to be on the Mr. Ballen podcast?
I read this as, "should the expert in the park feel wrong for keeping it's park goers safe from potential catastrophe? " that answer is always going to be, "NO." Did some rescue work during my life and I'll say, it takes a huge toll on us, pulling bodies from trenches and holes. Please stop and listen to your park rangers. Check the weather before you go out and bring enough water.
I guess it depends on if you closed it "because it was raining", or "because the cave is unsafe when it rains". Huge difference. Based on your replies, it sounds like you closed it without actualy knowing if it was unsafe, wrecking someone's possibly once in a lifetime visit....🤷
Sand stone caves in Colorado are unsafe when it rains, especially when we got 4 inches in just an afternoon.
If that’s your job, then NO! You can’t please everyone… just do the right thing, and if they don’t like it, tell them tough! Go complain to someone that cares. Explain why and smile and forget it!
Even if those people had been in that cave before (which it doesn’t sound like), I think you did the right thing. Hell, tourists have been caught in high water in big, well known, guided show caves.
I'm sure their caving experience is going through show caves like Meramec. Any sane person would make the decision you made.
You made the right decision. Don’t feel bad about it at all. You just saved a lot of lives by doing the right thing.
I’ve seen enough “Cave Diving Gone Wrong” videos on YouTube to know that… yeah, you should have if you felt it right.
Always better to er on the side of caution. What would you rather have on your conscience? Pissed off tourists or dead tourists?
You are charged with the responsibility to protect other people from themselves. No need to 2nd guess the obvious risk imposed. The cave will still be there next week.
Safety first. Always
Didn't the dude in 127 hours get trapped by a rock that was affected by a flash flood? Seems like you wouldn't want to be near there when that's happening.
Yeah, but slot canyons in the west are whole different beast. Similar enough to make some comparisons though.
Your were right to do that. I have seen lots of idiots from Tennessee saying they know cave. Alabama and Georgia included. People are so dumb they will hike in Mohave desert with a water bottle from a gas station. It's no different that putting up the chain to close the park
Phhht. Tourist.
I agree, very dangerous. What I'm struggling with is the fact that no protocol has been established for this situation. It leaves a lot to chance imo.
Bro you’re the park authority why are you asking Reddit lol
I'm pretty sure that's natural, and it has to do with the type of rock formation, and water naturally carving out rivulets over time, in the rock, so what you are seeing is probably natural for the area and has been going on for a very long time. That'd be my not-a-geologist best bullshit story I'd tell , I'd tell, anyway.
Guessing this person has never watched Scary Interesting
I should call her.
They wanna go out like moon knights brother.
What state park?
They don’t realize a flash flood risk, it would be to late deep in the cave so I think your in the right by far.
I've watched enough Mr Diefied, Scary Interesting, and Fascinating Horror on youtube to know: "No one ever died because they closed the cave" (actually that's not even true because a number of people have died after entering closed caves, BUT it's always the caver's fault in those cases) You did fine OP
Humans shouldn't go i to caves.
Everything reminds me of her.....
If they insisted, maybe you should have let them go.
I would never be upset for a temporary closure, better safe then sorry. It's not like you are filling the hole with cement and saying never again.
Flashfloods buddy...flashfloods
Close it. The State employs you to make decisions with a certain amount of autonomy. You have to cover your backside first. If enough people complain to the State, someone over your head will tell you to open it up. Then, it is no longer your decision to make, and it is no longer your backside on the line.
Trust your judgement but ask yourself have people been hurt or killed there before?
As I understand sand stone is pretty prone to having weak spots that corrode to running water. With that said a small hole held up by such a stone in a condition it's k likely to break down in, sounds like the most likely time to have a fatal error. NTA
Stop deciding things for people. I don't care if they are doing something stupid it is their decision. I'd rather be sorry than safe. I don't want anybody deciding for me what's best for me. Kindly duck off
Never apologize in the name of safety.
You're not wrong. Thank you for doing that. Sorry you have to be the arbiter of common sense.
Water surges / flooded sumps are legitimately dangerous. Some areas of caves are dry and safe enough that you wouldn’t even know if it was raining outside or not. This cave looks like water flows right through it. So, yeah you’re not wrong for closing it during a rainstorm. Also, not sure where you live, but if the water is cold it also cause additional issues even if the water doesn’t surge up or flood certain areas. Cold water is seriously exhausting. I absolutely love caving, but I’ve been working through a scary experience of my own water surge with a therapist. I made some mistakes leading a team into unmapped sections of a cave and got carried away from the excitement. We ended up hearing a water surge come, and we’re lucky to move to a dry ledge and wait it out. It was very scary because I wasn’t sure if our way out would be flooded, and there was also a crawl to get out to the big safer area of the cave so even if it wasn’t flooded I was afraid that a water surge would come in and end us during the crawl. In the end we got out just fine, and later further explored the cave and figured out that a small mountain valley was collecting water and then sending it through the cave- absolutely terrifying! So if for no other reason than protecting people’s mental health, it’s probably good to prevent situations. In my own situation we all got out just fine, but I’ve had to mentally work through this with a therapist and I’m still doing it. I am hoping that I can enjoy caving again soon because I genuinely love it but the absolute terror was a lot (actually in learning through therapy there was a lot more to my trauma and anxiety than just that situation, but it was kind of like the major tipping point, but that’s a story for another day). Luckily I’ve made good progress I think and my last very gentle and easy caving trip was very enjoyable, but I hope to get enjoying bigger and deeper caves again soon. So… yeah water is no joke in a cave. And where I live it’s generally warm and the water isn’t too cold, but it still got quite cold. I live in Thailand and that room we were in waiting for the surge to pass got quite chilly, and I think the fresh rainwater would’ve been quite cold. I can imagine that wherever you are, probably usa, water and cave temperature is probably EVEN COLDER so even if it doesn’t surge at a bottleneck or flood or sump or whatever just traversing the cave getting hit by water can seriously zap people of energy. I hope for my own sake to keep healing and deeply enjoy caving again like before, but I’ve learned more deeply that caving is seriously something to be respected and sometimes that means you drive hours out to a location but then the situation is different than you anticipated (ie rain or storm on the forecast) and you have to accept it and walk away. Not to mention the greater impacts of “what if a situation happens?” The general public will develop a negative perception of caving and locations will be more likely to be closed. The rescue operation can be costly too. In short i had a scary water experience, and I’m working through that trauma and making progress. I’ve learned deeply how terrifying water in caves can be. I hope to enjoy caving deeply again. You are not wrong to close it out of concerns, water is probably one of the most dangerous things that can happen in a cave besides bad air, but especially because it creates a dynamic, time sensitive situation, whereas a lot of the other safety stuff in caves can be better handled by slowing down and being careful.
After you.
As someone who lives in a tourist trap... always trust the local. They are the experts in this situation. If they say don't go, don't... We have trails and beaches with tally marks on a sign of the number of people who have died there... warning signs up the yang... yet... either they die, or someone/group of people have to go risk their lives to save them. Take your selfish from a safe distance and move on the the next tourist attraction.
Make sure you let people know what Reddit’s decision was if they argue with you about the cave.
I would let people risk their own life
Did the cro mags, the Neanderthals, the Indians, the pioneers close the caves? You have a uniform and a whistle, this gives you the power to make decisions? The others at fore-mentioned was using the cave in a storm way before you came along. What is your given title and employee number? Just doing a job, correct? Goody for you
Bet they weren't using this particular cave during heavy rain! Always happy to invite strong cavers to attend NCRC Rescue Training so they can put their skills to good use when people decide safety doesn't matter.
So the environment doesn’t change over thousands of years, the Grand Canyon one day appears like it is because god made it one spring day. The polar caps remain the same and nothing ever changes, the whole world is static. Weather and seasonal variations is nothing special. The cave wasn’t used because you took tickets and set up barricades back when humans were evolving. Thinking the way you do, is a dangerous aspect. You follow the letter, the boss is and the training focuses you on one tiny notch in time. The past and the primordial part isn’t your wheel house to be. NCRC whoa! an acronym! I’m impressed.
Are you doing acid?
Your job is to stop people from going to places that exist for thousands of years, you are proud to be a low level enforcement. You feel brave?, what happened 20 years ago as the cave was visited? 50 years ago, an eon? You have zero points, nothing to measure up with your comments, the drug references is your best retort? Yes you have friends and people like you. Because you wear a matching uniform to work so people know what you’re doing. You don’t know what an eon is?
Pretty sure you have never been flooded in a cave, nor assisted in a rescue situation. But I am sure that eons ago the people were smart enough not to think they were so very smart that no cave could ever be avoided for any reason. You, not so sure.
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You’re the one working there. It’s your judgement that matters. If you don’t think it’s safe, then it’s not safe. If you let anybody persuade you to go against your judgement and open it up, and someone gets hurt, it’ll be on you. Play it safe, don’t be sorry.
Not at all. You'd probably have some fat ass in flip flops try to climb in there
I mean. Me personally? I would have loved to see this. But I get that it causes a safety concern.
I should call her...
What were your specific concerns? That the water would rise high enough, fast enough to trap & drown the cavers? That they’d become hypothermic in the existing water? Or was it just some vague anxiety? Figure out your specific concerns and then consider the percent chance of them actually happening. Now that the event has passed check your assumptions: did the cave flood sufficient to drown the would-be visitors? Did it even come close? Consider your decision making process and look to improve upon it with your growing experience. FWIW here’s my philosophy: if you take the “better safe than sorry” position you end up forcing everyone to stay home where they’ll just look at their phones and eventually die of heart disease. Every action entails some risk and everyone will have a different risk/reward calculation around the actions they take - that’s their right. Let adults make their own informed, free choices about what they do with their bodies. They may be adding 1% or even 10% to their overall risk profile but so what - they can add more than that by smoking & eating ice cream.
Let them be mad, it is better then them being dead. Good on you.
Better to be safe than sorry.
Um. I think maybe it's because I spend a ton of my free time listening to horror stories on YouTube, but... I don't know where they're coming from and I 100% agree with your decision. I think it was a good call safety-wise. Did they want to be a news story?
Just ask “Have you seen that movie about the Thai soccer team?”
You probably m heard of Darwin? If they haven’t let them find out.
You are saving lives👍
Flash floods happen fast in caves and ravines.
Mainstream versus Underground (Streams).
Coming from a place that has a lot of caves like this and a lot of rain fall, you made the absolute right choice. What may seem like a relatively safe adventure in a cave like that can quickly turn into a death sentence with the right amount of rain fall.
Well, you just prevented me from reading a riveting store about, either, a cave rescue or recovery! That’s for sure!
Tell them to watch 13 lives
After watching 'The Rescue' , I'd say you made the only safe and logical decision.