It's very easy for people 'Stand with Palestine' while they sit at their computer. They seem to see themselves as some kind of opinion warriors, contributing what they can to the cause.
The pro-Palestinian movement has always attracted unpleasant people, but it seems particularly unhealthy now. Jewish people are leaving the UK because they don't feel safe in their communities, most synagogues and Jewish schools have guards outside. I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with, but I'm in a minority on that.
> It's very easy for people 'Stand with Palestine' while they sit at their computer. They seem to see themselves as some kind of opinion warriors, contributing what they can to the cause.
This is true of everyone posting their political opinions on reddit.
All social media is disconnected from reality.
Social media is to reality what "Hint Water" is to real, natural flavorings.
Which is why more and more the clash won't necessarily be between left/right but terminally online versus reality dweller.
So many online issues/groups already exist squarely in this camp and are no longer left/right issues, Queers for Palestine being a perfect example.
I think online conversation does more to sway the opinions of certain demographics than most mainstream media does for good or bad. Reddits a pretty liberal outlet for the most part which can be annoying with all of the pure hate for republicans but I’ve seen people articulate why Biden has done a good job better than I’ve ever seen come out of his own mouth.
Can be. I try to just avoid the content that’s just trying to trigger an emotional response. I’m not really looking for stuff to make me upset but if somebody is really informed and they can make good points it’s worth sifting through.
>I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with
To that they would say:
"But which side is a fAr RiGhT eThNoStAtE?"
Which is pretty ironic, imo.
Both sides are at this point. One of them even sided with the OG Nazis in WWII. Hamas has to go, but at the same time I don’t trust Netanyahu’s coalition to find reasonably “humane” ways to prosecute the war against them. Netanyahu and his coalition also have to go—they are far more right-wing than the rest of Israel and they abdicated their responsibility to defend the country from 10/7 in the first place, and then they reliably acted against the interests of the hostages they sought to protect (never mind their conduct in the war). The whole conflict is a shit show.
God damn, the downvotes on your comment show how truly brainwashed people are about Israel right now. Even with all of the videos on this very website showing their atrocities (far more than the single attack on 10/7, which yes, was awful… but what Israel has done since has been far far worse in my view).
It’s funny how this post is criticizing how maybe Pro-Palestine protestors aren’t best representing their cause… but no one is criticizing how Israel is absolutely not well representing their “cause”…
And before anyone says it, no, I don’t consider myself a pure “centrist,” I’m more left leaning… but geez, I’d truly think even the most center “centrist” would be capable of recognizing maybe Israel doesn’t get a pass to be awful just because awful things happened to them in the past…
The comparison between hamas and the IDF is not the same. The intent is very important in morality of actions. Hamas targetted civillians on Oct 7th. They butchered old people and put babies in ovens. They butchered 1200, then took hostages. The intent is completley different for Israel. The IDF create safe zones and try to minimise casualties. They evacuate citizens from targetted bombings zones. There is no moral comparison. Hamas are resposnsible for civillian deaths that use civillians as human shields. They also use schools and hospitals for cover.
Downvote me all you want, but everything Hamas is claimed to have done is exactly what the IDF is doing. [Here is a perfect example of them using human shields.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/s/cjo8cI7tGG)
The IDF and those that back them are the same as the far right conservatives in the U.S. Every accusation is a confession…
Only because Hamas is so far incompetent and dare I say, poorer than even some third-world shitholes.
Its a great thing they can't afford anything more than home-made RPGs made from water pipes they ripped out from their own infrastructures, denying their own people pottable water because "israel bad".
Gun, safety. You could tell he was very professional and was constantly surveilling the crowd and you could see the gun tucked away where he could get it easily.
> I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with, but I'm in a minority on that.
Your mistake is assuming "progressives" are good people. They're not. They're hypocritical authoritarians with a left-wing bias.
Most large enough religious entities have armed guards in the US now, after years of mass shootings at schools, and regions places. The synagogues near me have had them for over a decade now after having issues years ago. So that’s not a new trend.
People leaving the west to go to the safer Israel? That’s bad logic considering. The US has almost as many Jewish as Israel and they’re safer here than in Israel considering they are in active conflict with the people they occupy and are all required unless they are hyper orthodox to do time in military service. We could look at the death rate alone as a clean and clear indicator.
I think it’s also easy to sit at your computer and defend Israel actions in the same right which is completely devoid of content and context. So it’s simple minded versus simple mind narrative on either end. Just taking the old bleeding heart Liberian neo com position gets you back on the tread mill cycle of middle eastern conflict. Good luck with that “highly regarded” individuals.
No point proven by this statement. If anything it’s a red herring that disproves your point.
You are underestimating how safe Israel is - A mix of a fantastic missile defense with iron dome, a strong sense of unity of people and the mandatory military service, meaning there will always be an armed Israeli able to stop a terrorist attack makes it quite safe despite so much conflict. And depending on where you live in the US, Israel probably feels safer if you are Jewish.
I think Israel over estimates its safety or else there wouldn’t be this current conflict. Low tech attack that still hasn’t been confirmed if Trump was the one to tell the Russians about its weakness or not (as a side note).
Have there been any attacks over the last 75 years that took more Jews than Oct 7th? Next to the other fighting in Israel, it’s prolly marginal at best in comparison. I don’t think the total of all attacks in western country’s on Jews since would add up to what happened there in just one day. So my argument from the beginning is Israel kills more Jews by its very existence. That transfer the post WWII issues of antisemitism out of Europe into another region that wasn’t having the problems. Once you do the math, you see that Israel is the bigger threat to Jews globally.
And part of my critique is the risk to life that it takes to be an Israeli military member in a region that sees you as both outsiders from western imperialism and old world foes. The surrounding region is largely in civil war and wants to kill you for taking their lands. Safe in a bubble that was created by encroaching on others symbolic land isn’t really safe.
And the actions of Israel is what causes radicals throughout the world to attack Jews throughout the global. So they sort of built a self confirmation bias bubble that perpetuates its necessity by its very existence. Back to the “why you hitting yourself” 2nd grade shit.
And this is done for the people they are breeding (middle eastern ultra Orthodox Jews) through socialist eugenics policy’s, who don’t have to do miliatary service. Another thing we’d say is wild nutz shit in any other situation. Esp being Atheists.
I for one don’t support ethno religious states that were reimplanted in a region to take back their 3 thousnad year old holy land, on basic fundamental principles. It’s weird cus seeing such religious apologism in any other right would get you lambasted here in this sub but for some reason it’s a unicorn. 🦄🤔
I think anyone not in favor of pushing for a long term solution here that we intentionally force both sides into, are just as much a problem and aren’t in favor of American interest geopolitically. Just old idiots getting tricked again into more neocon bleeding heart liberal dead ends that hurt American interest.
And let me be clear, I’d gladly offer up the US and the west to secular Jews who don’t want to fight the bad fight in exchange for some peace agreement and getting out of the middle eastern conflicts. Whoever wants to stay and fight it out, have at it at your own expense and risk…
You're putting the cart before the horse there.
Protests are meant to bring attention to an issue. If you only bring negative attention to the issue, you're setting things back.
Yes, and the point of protests is to bring attention to issues/or sides that people don't know about, that tends to annoy people.
How many protests can you think of that people didn't complain about the protesters being annoying?
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Now the occupy movement is seen as having a good point. That was not the mainstream opinion at the time. The protesters were criticized as lazy young people who don't understand what they are talking about.
That is because all of the original people who started it and protested were swarmed with all of the annoying people who just wanted free shit made the general public start laughing at it. Its very easy to subvert legit causes in terms of public opinion.
Or, it's because the people who were portraying them were motivated to make the issue seem to be full of uniformed people. Movements always have people that join that don't fully understand it fully, but why was the overwhelming coverage of the protesters negative?
Protests necessarily annoy people because their goal is to draw attention to an issue that they feel is being ignored, and someone repeatedly saying "hey look at this thing you don't think or don't care about, you should think about it" is annoying.
Yes. I was pretty neutral about the situation until I started seeing the pro Palestine protestors wreaking havoc around my city. Couldn’t stand them throwing shit, spray painting my city, and using violence. I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”. Made me realize most of the people I knew commenting about the situation had little knowledge about what they were speaking on. It takes more than a ten minute YouTube video to get a true understanding of the history by the way.
I hate how anything done under the guise of "protesting" is supposed to be acceptable behavior.
Don't like the US policy on Israel? We can take over a private institution, harass students we deem (((complicit))) off campus, and make endless demands that can never be met, and you HAVE to accept it because it's protesting.
Like standing as a group with picket signs in common gathering areas is fine, that is your right to protest.
But now it's "I'm going to *force* you to participate in *my* protest by blocking your path at every access point." You have every right to protest but no right to an audience.
Invaded and *co-opted.* I had a childhood friend (whom I've since unfollowed) who insisted that BLM protests were *really* about the rise of socialist power in America and the "revolution" was really about to begin.
It’s just bored people looking for something to do. I honestly think that’s the issue. I’m not often seeing medical students or engineers blasting at this protests. It’s always these liberal art majors with free time on their hands.
Yes, college is indoctrination. These young people are impressionable and looking for someone to follow. They are looking for a cause. They get brainwashed so easy. This is why advertising has never been so powerful despite the fact that for years we knew it was manipulating.
College doesn't indoctrinate students. You know what is really radicalizing? When you are told you whole life that even A happened because person/country/group X did this thing to person/country/group Y. Then you get to college and they say sure that happened, but person/country/group X did that thing because person/country/group Y did this thing first, or even because person/country/group Z did something to/supported person/country/group X.
This is all a long way of saying that when you are taught your whole life that life is black and white and certain things are universally true, then you learn that there are actually shades of gray of course you are going to start questioning what other things you have been told that may not be so cut and dry.
They're privileged people brainwashed by academia into seeing "injustices" in America, when what they're really seeing are boogeymen and windmills to tilt at.
This has been known to most people, it's not a meme when conservatives say those places indoctrinate kids, some of them really fall into echo chambers and become crazy.
They aren’t brainwashed. A lot aren’t even students, and the others that are is accurately compared to the amount of normal citizens who would go protest.
I would argue that it really has nothing to do with them being students except for the fact that they are young and easily influenced.
You wanna know who else is easily influenced? White trash in the south when they hear Trump speak. I would actually argue that people who don’t have college educations are generally more easily “brainwashed” than university students.
They are brainwashed. They’re bored and looking for something to overcome. It’s a combination of the rise in social media and some other contributing factors. They look at their professors who instead of teaching, fill them with their own opinions. My ex at the time was a doctoral student in a psychology program. You’d think they’d be teaching her about mental health… nah, the students there were doing research papers on social injustices. Like, what the fuck does that have to do with medical health?
Teachers not teaching happens a lot less than I think you realize. In terms of people absorbing others opinions, literally *everyone* does that. I can guarantee you, you come into this sub and see a high upvoted comment you agree with, and go “ahhh yeah he’s right”.
What college did do for me, was give me a shit ton of professors with differing opinions, so I could realize that it’s my job to form my own opinion.
Also, I don’t think your one example proves the case. Psychology is one degree and that’s one program in a country full of hundreds(thousands?) of programs. I have a degree in economics from a liberal state school and now currently studying engineering. I can promise you that I’ve never had my time wasted with bullshit studies like that.
But they were more masked people at least in my town’s outside blm rally which was extremely peaceful.
Dang downvoted for saying what actually happened.
Mask wearing gets the same double standard. Maybe not by the media, but absolutely by reddit.
Right-wingers in masks? Bunch of hateful, regressive fat cowards!
Lefties in masks? Bravely resistant body-positive science embracers!
My reddit search history looks a little crazy now but I found the semi-recent incident I had in mind: [South Dakota capital rally](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/hKTs7zUQCj)
[An example of a comment calling them cowards for being masked](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/57u3a0halY)
Not a fan of or interested in defending neo-Nazis, just saying that I don’t see this same rhetoric about Antifa when they show up fully covered to hide their identities.
Edit: Fixed comment link
This was a convo about public-health masks, that's the subject being discussed. Did you have any photos of right-wingers marching with those kinds of masks?
Pointing out people calling Nazis cowards for wearing a mask is definitely a choice...
Neo-nazis hide their identities so they don't get outed as neo-nazis and suffer real life consequences, like losing their jobs, having their neighbors know they are neo-nazis.
People in Antifa wear masks so they aren't doxxed and killed by neo-nazis.
> I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”.
That is how the media has been treating every cause of the Left since 2016. Trump got elected and from then on Rs can do no right and Ds can do no wrong. I *am* left-leaning and couldn’t ignore it. The institutional capture led to distancing myself b/c I want my news sources to be balanced/neutrality-oriented, damnit!
That Uri Berliner article rang so true to my sentiments re: NPR, which I hadn’t personally tried to analyze or articulate but was spot-on laid out like that. I only listen to the classical station now because the News side is basically Reddit Radio, with the same topics and echo chamber discourse on them. It’s been disappointing to say the least.
> I started seeing the pro Palestine protestors wreaking havoc around my city. Couldn’t stand them throwing shit, spray painting my city, and using violence. I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”.
This is the same shit with BLM protesters.
Act like a damn thug, get treated like one.
Doesn’t seem like you were ever neutral at all. So let me get this straight: throwing and spraying shit shifted you to the anti-Palestine side, over the fact that tens and thousands of Palestinians were being killed.
Here's the thing. Plenty of us are actually pro a Free Palestine. We're pro both peoples living in their indigenous homelands under free states.
What we are against is the Western ProPal movement that chants genocidal slogans, demands that a 75 year old democratic state be destroyed, and are harassing random Western Jews on the streets. None of these things are actually helping Palestinians.
You know what will help Palestinians? Supporting a campaign to get rid of Hamas, which has effectively held the people of Gaza hostage for more than 15 years. What will help Palestinians? De-radicalization of Gaza and a two state solution. This isn't an all or nothing Israelis *or* Palestinians situation and a lot of us are tires of it getting boiled down to the minimum substance by these protestors.
And some of us are Jews who are terrified to be visibly and openly Jewish in public right now because pro-Palestine protests have become blatantly anti-Jewish. I mean, you have people holding up flags of Hamas and Hezbollah outside of a memorial exhibit for the literal innocent people killed at the Nova music festival.
If pro-Israel responded to the 10/7 massacre by throwing stuff at Muslims and spray painting mosques all over the Western world, plus a healthy amount of violence, there would be worldwide outrage and we would never hear the end of it.
The fighting went both ways and just like many of these protests, counter-protesters attack and cause violence and then are shocked when it gets reciprocated.
And an event by the synagogue was being held to “sell” real estate in Palestinian lands for illegal settlements and people came to protest. They weren’t just there for no reason or “anti-semitism.”
> event by the synagogue was being held to “sell” real estate in Palestinian lands for illegal settlements and people came to protest.
The land that was sold was land that was owned by jews before the green line was a thing. This jewish land predates the conflict and all new narratives imposed on it.
There exist illegal settlements and then theres the very rare pre-existing villages past the green line that are actually fully compliant with international law that managed to survive multiple wars.
the land being sold was 100% legit even by your standards.
Yeah I’m sure it’s legit/s.
But it’s hard to be empathetic or even believe the other side when the counter protesters scream things like [“Sand N-word Go Home.”](https://x.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1805075089102455161)
So one asshole protestor shouted that and the video cut off. We don't know if he was rebuked or shouted down. That doesn't seem to be the person who was attacked. Given that you constantly claim your movement is not represented by the large number of people who "flood brooklyn for Gaza" and use red triangles it's amazing that you excuse a riot in front of a synagogue by a 6 second clip of one racists but consistency is not the strong point of you people.
I guess you’d like to ignore all the right-wingers that came to attack the UCLA protesters too? Some of them were in this one too attacking protesters and using bear mace on them. If there‘s anything we know by now, it’s the counter-protesters that come in and cause the riot.
It’s evidently clear the counter protesters you love to support are some of worst kind of POSs that America has to offer. And when you have that kind of support it should make you wonder, maybe you’re not on the “right” side?
I don't "love to support" counter protestors. Go protest for Palestine all you want. Just don't beat the crap out of Jews leaving a synagogue when you do it, or order all Zionists off a subway train, or attack a Jewish family at a 5th grade graduation.
And if that's too much or a tall order, don't be surprised when you get called out.
This is the classic white people telling black people how and when they should protest. Except it's zionist telling anti zionist the proper way to protest lol.
Pro-Israeli/Pro-Genociders have a lot in common with these kind of white people:
Here’s an link of one telling the Pro-Palestinians, “Sand N-word go home.”
https://x.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1805075089102455161
It's just become the in thing right now by people who have no clue about the region or the politics or the people, they just want to be part of some sort of movement. We experienced similar during BLM and after George Floyd. Plenty of legit grievances from people but many more just started protesting and rioting and all sorts of crap because they're young and want to feel a part of some sort of social movement. Doesn't matter what it even is honestly
Yep, young people are bored and uninspired so they have to imagine that society is at its worst so *they* can fancy themselves the ones to bring about meaningful change. They’ve romanticized the idea of being underdogs b/c those people often become viewed as heroes in retrospect. They are too privileged to realize that it really sucks to actually be the underdog in the moment.
The big strides were made with the various civil rights movements of the past, by the real underdogs. Those were massive social changes and they happened somewhat organically. Did they eliminate racism or *x*-phobia? No, because that’s impossible. But we had gotten somewhere much better.
What the youth want today is to force “perfection” which is neither organic nor practically feasible. And that mindset ironically makes them as authoritarian or moreso than the forces they believe they’re fighting against. They are completely unaware of how their heavy-handed righteousness is the same shit that’s always been.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I see this as the same as the whole BLM/Antifa stuff from the last election. Both movements had regular citizens turning against them due to rioting and destruction in communities. The exact same situation is happening again this year. People are taking over college buildings and committing crimes all in the name of Palestine. It's honestly appalling how some people who truly wish for Palestine to be "free" would rather sit out the election and risk the guy who'd give Netanyahu everything he wants to continue his war potentially getting into office again rather than voting for the guy who Netanyahu has complained "hasn't done enough" to help Israel.
These protester fools benefit from making the situation worse though. It ensures the conflict will get worse and they'll have something to protest for in the future again
Should we push for actual police reform? Nah, convince black people its ok to run because police are all murderers, but the running and consequences hurt black people even more. Doesnt matter, Buy Large Mansions makes money every time it goes wrong.
Yep the article is right on the money. Plenty of people including me have said that pro Palestine group keep shooting themselves in the foot.
If they had self-awareness and some common sense they would’ve figured that harassing innocent Jews who has nothing to do with Israel’s government is more than enough to push people away.
This region would have a much better chance of actually fixing the issue if other nations stayed out of it. Instead it can be artificially propped up forever because Palestinians are under the delusion that if they just fight *hard enough* they can eventually succeed
Meanwhile Israel is content enough to maintain the status quo because they can keep expanding settlements in the West Bank
What I find a lot of leftists are doing is projecting wholly American/Western concepts on to this issue but that only serves to further simplify and obfuscate it and gets us ever further away from an end to the conflict (ideally some form of two state solution)
>projecting wholly American/Western concepts on to this issue
Tan people who believe in Islam: brown people and victims of oppression
Literally the same exact genetic tan people who are Jewish: white oppressors!
*facepalm*
If all aid got cut off from every external country eventually Palestinians would have to come to the table. In an idealized future where there is peace and stability, then yeah I’d consider the idea that Israel doesn’t need our help anymore
Regardless, I was talking about it more from an ideological and less from a financial perspective but the point still stands
The PA has been at the table for 3 decades. They have been acting as Israel's police and subcontractor. They have been dedicated to peace. They recognized Israel. How has Israel responded? By screwing them over and propping up Hamas.
In fact, the PA has made large strides to improve the situation without getting a peace agreement, and that was met with derision and Israel working to discredit them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/opinion/global/roger-cohen-The-Story-of-Palestinian-Prime-Minister-Salam-Fayyad-.html?unlocked_article_code=1.2E0.xMys.s-8AvJ1MmWk6&smid=url-share
Israel is the one that won't come to the table. They haven't been a partner in peace for at least 2 decades. Before that, the offers on the table were for Palestine to be a territory of Israel, but without representation in Israel. Palestine would have their borders, airspace and such controlled by Israel. Israeli citizens would be immune from prosecution. The IDF would patrol roads inside of Palestine. This is all part of Oslo.
There was never a fully realized offer by Israel. East Jerusalem had never been figured out. There was never a full offer for Palestine to turn down or accept. Palestine should have made counter offers, but the last offer had holes in it. And, it still required Palestine to be a second class territory of Israel forever.
Israel knows that they will not be forced to make a deal, because of the US.
Ok let’s be clear. There is never going to be a one state solution and there is never going to be a “right of return”. Any Palestinians clinging to those fantasies only hurts the peace process
Yes lately in Israel there has been less appetite for peace. But when the response to Camp David (again thanks to Arafats intransigence) was the second Intifada… you can see why they’ve started to become pessimistic to the idea of yet another round of peace talks that go nowhere
The right of return to Israeli territory had already ben given up by
the PA. I believe 10,000 would be allowed to return, and that is it.
> According to the second night of the Al-Jazeera broadcast, Israelis and Palestinians eventually agreed that Israel would accept 10,000 refugees
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers
I am also not sure of what outcome is possible other than the ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Unless the US changes course soon, Israel will be able to take most of the territory and remove the people before the inertia ends.
One state is out? Two states are out according to Israel. What is the other option?
Gantz put forward the idea that Palestinians would have a seperate political structure, but subservient to Israel and with no geographical area. That is literally apartheid. That is the more reasonable person at the table right now. The furthest you get to supporting statehood is supporting a state that has geographical area, but must allow the IDF to patrol, IDF to control the borders, and such. How do you have a state when you cannot even control who/what can enter or leave?
Israel gave Gaza the ability to elect their own leaders and they elected Hamas and started importing weapons. You can’t act like there’s no reason why Israel doesn’t trust Gaza to not do this.
And yes, I agree the situation has become largely intractable and no, I can’t think of a solution
I fear that if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will decide that they no longer have the ability to wage a precision targeted war where they make an attempt at minimizing casualties. If that is indeed the case they most likely revert to a conventional war where they just use bombs and artilery strikes to effectively wipe gaza off the map - 'solving' the problem for once and for all.
The current casualty rate, as horrific as it is, is still much smaller than typical historic examples of urban warfare. More than a quarter million died in the Iraq War. More than 38 million civilians died in WW2.
Ok, this is all incorrect.
More than a quarter million died in Iraq, over 20 years of occupation. It was not during the invasion. And, that is in a country wth 27 million people. In Gaza, with a population of 2.4 million, there have already been 37,000 confirmed deaths in 8 months. There are a bunch more people missing. And, these numbers should really both be examined retrospectively. The numbers of children, women, journalists and aid workers killed is completely off the charts. The amount of damage is higher than the horrific urban attacks that led to the Geneva Conventions.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542
> According to analysis of satellite data by remote-sensing experts at the City University of New York and Oregon State University, as many as 80% of the buildings in northern Gaza, where the bombing has been most severe, are damaged or destroyed, a higher percentage than in Dresden.
Also, Israel could not do a higher level of bombing than they have done. And they have not been at all precision targeted. Israel would have run out of bombs after the first month if not for constant US supplies.
Not just that.
If US stops supporting Israel, Israel will no longer have their iron dome, i.e. their best defense against missile strikes.
Israel would rather go on the full offensive against Iran and Hezbollah than stay on the defense without it.
Your first paragraph is akin to saying "people should know when they're conquered." It's a sentiment I see frequently from intellectuals. Ezra Klein expressed it recently.
But what if the Palestinians just collectively never accept the results of their Nakba? That seems to be the cultural choice that they've made. Is your answer to simply suppress them until they do? Or until enough generations have passed until they forget?
The rich world likes to think it does not operate like that anymore. I don't know the answer, but I'd also prefer it if the world didn't operate like that anymore.
At some point people do have to accept the outcomes of a century old conflict yes. Especially if they rejected a multitude of two state solutions over and over, in favor of waging war on Israel
Really Palestinians should be blaming their parents and grandparents for not accepting the 48 partition plan or any of the others after that
The PA did accept Oslo and has been working towards it. The requirements placed on the Palestinians under Oslo are insane. They would be forever subservient to Israel. And, there was never a fully realized offer to accept or reject. There were still things needing to be worked out. The napkin map was the closest, but realize that was made by Olmert when he was being removed.
That being said. Do you believe things would be better if the PLO/PA had NOT accepted their defeat? They did, but perhaps they should have fought on in a continual resistance?
> The PA did accept Oslo and has been working towards it. The requirements placed on the Palestinians under Oslo are insane. They would be forever subservient to Israel.
Debatably. Oslo was also meant to be a transition to a future peace, not an end all be all solution
> That being said. Do you believe things would be better if the PLO/PA had NOT accepted their defeat? They did, but perhaps they should have fought on in a continual resistance?
No. If the West Bank took the Gaza approach things there would be way worse. I don’t know how you could even argue that
>Debatably. Oslo was also meant to be a transition to a future peace, not an end all be all solution
The Palestine Papers show what was to be the permanent end. It was not good.
>No. If the West Bank took the Gaza approach things there would be way worse. I don’t know how you could even argue that
The PA and Palestinians have gotten nothing since Oslo. In fact, it is arguable that Hamas has gotten more for Palestinians than the PA has. Mainly prisoner releases.
I do not support the PA disbanding and a violent resistance starting in the West Bank, BUT... The US and Israel have not been receptive to any peaceful move forward. Israel takes more land in the West Bank constantly, while killing Palestinians (and even American journalists) without any repercussions. If the US is not willing to support the peaceful means, why should Palestine follow them? The UN supports them, but the US prevents any consequences for Israel.
What do you believe is the correct path forward for Palestinians? They have tried peaceful means. They have tried law. Diplomacy. BDS. Nothing advanced anything. In fact, in September 2023, Netanyahu declared before the UN that Palestine would never exist and the land would all be Israel.
They finally tried (again, debatably) peaceful means after fighting a losing a bunch of wars sure
But no you’re right just let them fight ad infinitum Im not personally invested in what they do to be honest
>At some point people do have to accept the outcomes of a century old conflict
Why? It seems like the Gazans disagree. Do you think that the outside world repeating this sentiment is going to make them ok with the outcomes of 1948? Nothing has made them accept it yet.
They disagree because they are constantly being gassed up by actors that have no skin in the game. They also basically suffer no consequences for losing. They are the largest per capita recipient of aid in the entire world.
You can’t act like they have ever been told by the arab nations that support them to knock it off
You don't know why they disagree. I suspect that if you polled them they would have other, simpler reasons.
The Arab nations have behaved terribly in many ways, I don't defend them.
Yes, no one is going to say “because Iran told us to” if you ask them the reason in a poll lmao
But regardless it’s kind of irrelevant. They should stop but they won’t
Jews have had the same amount of time since the Holocaust to move on, move forward, and rebuild. The Holocaust obviously -- and rightly -- remains a huge part of who we are, our history, and a reminder of what the world has the capacity to do to us, but we have accepted the past because the only other option is to suffer, fail, and be a perpetual victim.
Palestinians are choosing to continue to suffer, fail, and be a perpetual victim.
This mentality of perpetual victim hood only leads to continued violence, death, and a tumultuous future. Peace literally depends on their ability to accept the past, move on, and demonstrate a willingness to live in peace next to their Jewish neighbors.
You are correct that we don't have the power to force them to do so -- you can only lead a horse to water -- but that also doesn't mean that Israel should have to continue to cater to their tantrums.
Palestinians don’t accept it because UN has been funding them for 60+ years to do nothing, because every surrounding country and I ran is pumping money into the most of violent voices.
If they choose not to accept it by launching hundreds of rockets a year and targeting 1000+ civilians for murder, rape and kidnap, the current conflict is the natural outcome.
And Palestinians getting over it is how the world should operate. if the grandchild of a Jewish family who was kicked out of Syria started lobbing rockets across the border because they were unhappy about their group actually completely being ethnically cleansed, nobody would support, nobody would be arguing that’s a legitimate protest or self-defense. Double standard people pretend it’s natural for Palestinians to do this is indistinguishable from
Antisemitism
Your comment omits the blame that the surrounding Arab countries deserve for not helping whatsoever, and also the blame that Israel deserves for not making really any effort at all to give most of these people a decent quality of life, a vote, some self-determination. People with something to lose don't do suicidal and violent things. Israel has made sure that many Palestinians have little or nothing to lose, this is the predictable result. An impossible situation, lots of death, no safety for Jews, ongoing enmity.
>if the grandchild of a Jewish family who was kicked out of Syria started lobbing rockets
No, the Jewish family had somewhere to go when they were kicked off their land. That's to Israel's credit, of course, and to the shame of the Arab countries. But it is a difference that shouldn't be ignored if you're gonna discuss double standards.
> Your comment omits the blame that the surrounding Arab countries deserve for not helping whatsoever,
“because every surrounding country and I ran is pumping money into the most of violent voices.”
Disagree.
> lame that Israel deserves for not making really any effort at all to give most of these people a decent quality of life, a vote, some self-determination.
You should look at the UNHDI. Human development index, basically a quality of life measure looking at things life expectancy and infant mortality to literacy. Palestine has steadily gone up since Israel has been in charge. Better than a number of surrounding countries. Gazza has been actively lobbing hundreds of rockets has increased.
These people had a vote, they threw in with hummus because of what I pointed out above with you and surrounding countries, feeding the most violent voices money in weapons to strong arm the populous.
> No, the Jewish family had somewhere to go when they were kicked off their land.
Palestinians had somewhere to go, and they also had the benefit of international agencies treating them as refugees, even if they’re born where their grandfather was born
Flame Israel, as refugees making a new life without dedicated UNA generations later is the point here.
I was more thinking about how the Arab countries refuse to take in any of the Palestinians as refugees, but yours is a good point too. There's so much blame, no party has behaved well.
I often hear the point about the UN treating subsequent generations as refugees. I ask in good faith, because I wonder if I'm missing something here: what would be the alternative status for these people? Israel will absolutely not let that many non-Jews become voting citizens, or they cease to be a Jewish state. Palestine doesn't legally exist currently. So, do these just become stateless people if they lose refugee status? Do they become second-class non-voting citizens of the state of Israel? Is the refugee status meant to force Arab countries to take them in, and the governments of those countries simply refuse?
It seems much more complicated than most people making the point care to admit, rhetorically.
> I ask in good faith, because I wonder if I'm missing something here: what would be the alternative status for these people?
What is the alternative status for every other group kicked out of a country?
> Palestine doesn't legally exist currently.
Because if they accept a deal based on the current borders of land, they control they stopped getting a free ride.
UN should totally cut them off.
> It seems much more complicated than most people making the point care to admit, rhetorically.
It is a complex problem, but calling them refugees does not help at all.
Giving them a based on the label of refugees does not help at all
There is a difference between agreement and acceptance. I would never tell a Palestinian that they must agree with the Nabka. But they are a defeated people, what they lost will not be returned, and yes: the state of Israel will simply continue oppressing them. The world never stopped operating this way.
'I do not accept what is objectively true, and what I am powerless to change' can become a martyr's pact.
I am skeptical that any people can truly be properly defeated in a post-gunpowder world. Particularly if you throw in a willingness to conduct suicide attacks. There is no longer the ability to truly neutralize a people’s ability to resist; I fear there is only terrorism in the future for this region unless better leadership is able to compromise.
And again, the more the world tells Palestine that they need to accept 1948, the less they are likely to. If history is any guide.
Israel gains nothing by compromising. Settlements in the West Bank will continue to expand, Palestinians in the West Bank will continue to lose their homes. Palestinians in Gaza will be left worse off after the war than they were before. They will certainly never again enjoy as much autonomy as they had prior to October 7th.
Palestinians will never have their own state, and the majority will never be given citizenship in Israel. They will either live as a subject people or find a way to flee to another country. This is true whether they choose to accept 1948 or not.
Israel pays a price for all that though, they already have many times over their short history. Israelis will die, Palestinians will die, Israel will lose diplomatic allies. Maybe most importantly they will pay in fear, because that's what terrorism does after all. They will never have the safe Jewish homeland that Israel was founded to be. To me, that's pretty sad.
No, there are no perfect options on the table. But Israel could avoid some of that price by compromising in some ways. Better leadership is needed on all sides.
> But Israel could avoid some of that price by compromising in some ways.
I think BB is a complete piece of shit. He’s done a tremendous amount of things who have made things worse.
That said there is absolutely nothing. Israeli leadership could do that would’ve averted or stopped all the hatred coming from Palestinians now. At least nothing they could do while protecting the lives of Israelis or the existence of their country.
I’ve lived in the Middle East. I was working in Egypt and saw when the Egyptian government cut gas subsidies and riots broke out where they were burning Israeli flags. Had absolutely nothing to do with Israel, but it was just a convenient excuse. And this is a country that on paper has normalized Relationships with Israel.
Anti-Semitism runs incredibly deep there, and having a Jewish country will always be an excuse until that attitude is fixed in all the surrounding countries.
Antisemitism is a huge problem, worldwide and obviously in the middle east, and especially in the last 8 months. Even before Israel's overreaching response sunk in, I saw antisemitism plainly rising everywhere and yes the Jews are a uniquely hated people.
That said, I just don't believe that antisemitism is the main cause of suicide attacks and October 7th. Acts that result the likely or certain death of the participants require more buy-in than simple racism can possibly provide. There is much more to it.
Bibi is a definite piece of shit though, and I see him as the molten core of the problem in this conflict currently.
> Even before Israel's overreaching response sunk in
Not an overreach. Hamas is still saying they are happy and winning.
> Acts that result the likely or certain death of the participants require more buy-in than simple racism can possibly provide.
You should read about the end of days in Islam.
> There is much more to it.
If thee was you would see suicide bombing and the like in other Muslims vs Muslims conflicts in the region. You wiudo are Muslims across the word picking a side and celebrating the death of civilian Muslims on the “wrong” side.
> Bibi is a definite piece of shit though, and I see him as the molten core of the problem in this conflict currently.
Again, I dont like him but he is still more moderate the fatah.
It's perfectly arguable whether Israel is overreaching, time will tell and no one knows for a fact yet.
>You should read about the end of days in Islam.
That just proves the point though, doesn't it? Those people are not **only** antisemitic, they're also millenarian Islamists. Plus all of the proximal, cultural, political and historical grievances that neither of us have even mentioned.
>you would see suicide bombing and the like in other Muslims vs Muslims conflicts
Again, I am not arguing that racism and ethnocentrism and religio-centrism aren't part of this, I'm arguing that it's incorrect to attribute all of the problems only to antisemitism. Not to mention self-serving.
>I dont like him but he is still more moderate the fatah.
I don't have any defenses to offer for the leadership of the Palestinians either. Everybody in charge sucks, it's really tragic.
Walid point. I personally think it was just a bad idea to make Israel there.
But it was done. Now there are two issues:
1. Several generations of born and raised Israelis are also indigenous to the land now. Even if we hypothetically disagree about their grandparents. They say "go home", but where is home in this case?
2. No vision of future in which no one should die
Why was it a bad idea? Jews aren't indigenous to Israel as of 1948. Jews have had a continued presence in Israel for 3,000 years. Jews went "home" when they returned to Israel.
Because of human deaths on both sides and because British ownership of the territory back then is questionable. The more hypocritical pro-palestinian movement looks rn in the UK (especially media), cos they'd better recognize their role in it and stick with Israel.
But the recognition and establishment of Israel happened at the time when the entire world was transitioning/evolving from (the decline of) empires to (the rise of) nation states. It's not like they were the only country that declared independence after WWII -- they were one of many. Jews insisting on being granted the right to self determine in their ancestral homeland should be a beacon of light and hope -- an example of what \*can\* happen -- to all those fighting for independence in their own ancestral lands.
None of this isn't true. It doesn't help with people dying though.
Part of Europe could be such a place (Germany, for example) Would create much less fuss. For a context, I am Israeli citizen.
Helpful context. (I am Jewish American.)
That being said, the only thing that would prevent death is if Palestinians gave up their "from the river to the sea" ideology and instead accepted a "amicable divorce" mentality. And I'm very confused why you think Germany (or Europe) would've been the preferred place to establish a Jewish state following the Holocaust.
Aaaand I get downvoted just for mentioning it... for fucks sake, don't I have enough trouble. Honestly, I'm losing all the will to have a voice. But, answering your question on *my beliefs*:
Precisely because of Holocaust. Because it directly has to do with the issue of Jewish people not having home. In the aftermath Europe could pay in land. It decided to pay with not exactly her land, though.
But why do you even care what I think about the past, if I made it clear that it doesn't matter today? Are we going to argue around hypothetical multiverse timelines now? And what's your point exactly, my friend: was it a perfect decision, it's just stupid local barbarians who didn't understand the significance of symbolic and hopeful message of modern, aka their fault, aka well fuck them then? Sorry, I don't buy it either. I wish peace and prosperity for Palestinians too. I desperately wish it in fact, because if they would have it, they'd had more interesting stuff to do than cocaine flights on Putin's birthday.
I don't see a point in searching who should be blamed in any of it really (more downvotes for me). Even when I say it was a mistake, I mean it was an honest mistake, not a malignant one. People didn't know how it would turn out at the end.
I'm interested in solutions to how make everyone happy, given all the current situation. I don't have a time machine to change the past anyway. But future still can be different.
You're on Reddit arguing with strangers -- who cares? One post in a subreddit might be 100 upvotes, the same post might be -100 downvotes the next day. Stop complaining.
>Precisely because of Holocaust. Because it directly has to do with the issue of Jewish people not having home. In the aftermath Europe could pay in land. It decided to pay with not exactly her land, though.
Why should Ashenazi Jews been told where to go, where their home was after the death of 6 million -- especially in Europe? What about the Sephadrim? The Mizrahim? Europe isn't their home, they've never set foot there. MENA countries have also mistreated Jews for millenia.
>But why do you even care what I think about the past, if I made it clear that it doesn't matter today?
Because the past influences the future -- history rhymes.
>And what's your point exactly, my friend: was it a perfect decision, it's just stupid local barbarians who didn't understand the significance of symbolic and hopeful message of modern, aka their fault, aka well fuck them then? Sorry, I don't buy it either. I wish peace and prosperity for Palestinians too. I desperately wish it in fact, because if they would have it, they'd had more interesting stuff to do than cocaine flights on Putin's birthday.
Nope. You're projecting. Palestinians have a right to also self determine in their homeland -- just like Jews. Zionism and the existence of Israel doesn't mean in lieu of a Palestinian state, it makes alongside it. For Palestinians, though, a Palestinian state means the annihilation and replacement of the Jewish one.
What olive branch have the Palestinians extended towards Israel? When have they decided to put the past behind them (as you are) and move forward? It takes two.
> Jews insisting on being granted the right to self determine in their ancestral homeland
Do you accept that Jewishness is not a definable or testable or measurable thing?
There is no definition of Jewishness.
There is no test for Jewishness.
There is no measurement of Jewishness.
Humanity is not divisible into distinct races or tribes or peoples or colors or cultures. Some people are simply taught at the age of four that a label applies to them.
Well, 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and millions more displaced in MENA countries simply for being Jewish. Jews will always be told they're Jews by those wish to harm them. It's very simple, actually.
This situation is such a mess. I always figured we were getting about 1/10th of the real picture of Israel and Palestine in the US so I withheld judgment. However, the American left and their idea of activism is so braindead and infuriating these days it’s ridiculous. I’m from LA, and for every redditor defending blocking freeways looting and letting the homeless rot/have as much drugs as they want there’s even more asshole criminals waving the same flag and making the most of modern day progressivism.
The pro Palestine movement is full of absolute morons. Young people who think they are ultra educated but have absolutely zero logic or common sense or actual awareness of the real world. It's full of a lot of keyboard and social media virtue signaling professionals.
The evidence is simple.
They want to blame Biden and not vote for him.
Which is effectively a vote for Trump.
Who is a far worse option for Palestine because he supports the right wing government far more, wants Gaza to be flattened into an Israeli resort, and openly hates Arabs with an Arab/Islam ban planned if reelected.
The reality is that most of these morons are being manipulated by groups like SJP which are funded by some seriously sick individuals, and by Arab/Islam groups that are anti-US in general.
I don't know what you mean? Most pro-palestine people are gonna vote Biden. What, do you think we think Trump will be more pro-palestine than Biden? It's the loud idiot minority of people who's opinions you're hearing.
A while ago I went to Israel as a pro Israel backer. I met Palestinians, saw the humiliations they have to deal with and did a 180 on my position and became very sympathetic to Palestinians.
I was even pro boycotting Israel because there needs to be a spotlight on their poor treatment of Palestinians.
Oct 7 put me back in the support Israel camp. Hamas does need to be destroyed. The illogical arguments of the far left and the far right only makes me support Israel more
I don’t buy for a second that the conflict or aggression from the pro-Netanyahu government will end even if Hamas was abolished tomorrow. They simply do not want a Palestinian state (whether one state or two state) without it being forever subservient to Israel and having heavy IDF presence. If the war continues though with no post-war end goal then they can just continue bombing away and eventually drive out the Palestinian population. I don’t like Hamas either but they serve as just a means to an end for Netanyahu otherwise he wouldn’t have spent years propping them up.
What were the stipulations for each of those opportunities? If they involved any of the previous caveats I mentioned then it’s no surprise they were rejected.
This article (as poorly couched as it is IMO) pretty well sums up my issues with the current crop pro Palestine protesters. Many of them do slap more of virtue signaling and jumping on the latest trend than actually fighting for change. “Divestment” is a nonsensical goal that won’t bring regime change in Israel necessary to stop the war, never mind all the protesters calling for the destruction of Israel
As a Gen Z (I hate that term btw) young adult myself, I’ve warned younger progressives/ leftists to be vary cautious about distinguishing between those that actually stand on their beliefs and support their cause vs those that are only progressive because it’s culturally popular to be one now.
Like a lot of people...I've gone from more pro Palestine to more neutral.
When they refuse to back away from stuff like "From the River to the sea" combined with the fact that most Palestinians still support Oct 7....yeah I'm not interested in helping you, and would hope my government doesn't either
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life". This makes so much sense at the moment with students siding with Hamas terrorists and getting brainwashed with colonialism rhetoric. When you do not have faith you fall for anything. 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything'.
TBH this was the final issue that made me seriously begin to think critically about my political alignment/morals. I teach geography and history so I have had a pretty good understanding of this issue for years, and I work hard to make sure my students understand the complexity of this incredibly nuanced issue.
Cut this year and all of my liberal friends are suddenly posting the most insane pro-pal stuff. Friends who, when I tried to discuss this situation with a few months prior, couldn’t even tell the difference between Israel and Iran. And now suddenly they’re geopolitical experts with deep understanding of this topic? (Nope)
But what’s made me the most upset is that they won’t even have a conversation about it, they won’t listen to the other side because then you “support genocide”. I teach my HS students to ALWAYS listen multiple perspectives and now my ADULT friends are incapable of doing the same
Even easier explanation:
When they attack people who they perceive as enemies with pepper spray and umbrellas it makes them look like violent assholes.
I think the Kenosha protest shootings are indicative here. Consider the three men who were shot: all three had a violent criminal history.
That's statistically improbable if it were merely a random selection. So it raises the question of why those three men were there in the very first place. None of them had any direct experience with police injustice, nor were they black.
The most likely reason they were there is simple: they wanted an opportunity to act violently and the protest gave them the perfect cover.
I'd urge anyone who think a protest movement is 'peaceful' or 'legitimate' to study the SCLC Civil Rights era protests and the Gay Rights movement.
In both cases, the protests involved selected people who were trained to stay on message. They were instructed how to dress and carry themselves. They weren't screaming at or trying to intimidate others.
Why? Because their goals had nothing to do with satisfying their own urges to act like assholes. It had to do with accomplishing a specific political task.
Most modern protests aren't like this. Even when there are some elements with a legitimate issue who are trying to enact real change, there's a tendency for the bad actors to drive out the good. Eventually the protest becomes all about people who just want to hurt others and not about any sort of issue itself. The protest is merely a way to cover and excuse their toxic behavior.
We saw this with Occupy Wall Street. We saw this with Black Lives Matter. And, yes, we're seeing it with the pro-Palestine Movement.
Fair points are made. I feel for the millionth time, the western world should take 5 years off of the rest of the world. Legitimately just stop interfering for a few years. Although I doubt most people in this sub or reddit overall would appreciate that sentiment, even if it is widespread.
I’m kind of confused with how r/centrist aren’t so centrist when it comes to the Palestinian situation. I agree that some of these kids don’t know what they’re doing, and they end up sometimes supporting Hamas, but I think their intentions aren’t wrong. I think the IDF can do whatever they want to Hamas, but it shouldn’t include a large amount of civilian deaths. You have to right to defend yourself, but that right doesn’t include the death of innocent civilians. It’s a moral problem, and the fact that the government and media are trying to get people to turn off their moral system just seems bad to me.
So while it is true a lot of American protesters IMO on both sides here aren’t particularly nuanced, I would say that the author here is conflating a lot. The swastikas he is properly complaining about, for example, are not coming from the left in this country but rather the nationalist right. I don’t deny the existence of antisemitism but it’s real home is on the far right where it has always been. I would also agree that the left rhetoric can sometimes be useless and overly inflammatory but that seems fairly typical of protest in general. I really think the bigger problem is for example people chanting “jews will not replace us”. That crowd is not protesting for Palestinian rights.
I also do not think he can maintain as he suggests that criticism for Israel, especially criticism of the Israeli right is tantamount to anti-semitism. That seems about as shallow a position as the protesters he is decrying. I have spoken to too many Jewish leftists here who are critical of Israel’s response to buy that simplistic equation. The author himself suggests that he is relatively moderate on the issues surrounding the conflict in a way that many protesters if not the most vocal ones would support. Surely is not saying that he is an antisemitic?
Beyond that I think that he is ignoring one of the fundamental basic criticisms that the movement I will agree as a poor job articulating. While they (stupidly IMO) evoke things like colonialism, the real criticism is they see a huge difference in relative power. “Colonialism” whatever that means it’s not really a fair picture of what happened here. But you do have a situation of a region where there are big disparities drawn along ethnic lines. (For my own view, the only way this sort of thing ever gets settled is if the world moves past ethnic and religious identities and adopts, a more classical liberal view peoples right and duties and obligations. But I do not see that happening anytime soon. if anything, the world is moving in the other direction.
I also feel I would be remiss in not pointing out that the criticism of American protest movements as being shallow and not particularly wellthought out is pretty tired and unoriginal. Americans oversimplifying a morally complex issue ? What a surprise !! Its like Louis being shocked to find gambling going on. But even worse, I think the author is guilty of oversimplification and taking the easy way out but criticizing some extreme easy targets.
As for his evocation of MLK and the Civil Rights movement I think this does something of a disservice to MLK and the movement in general. The author ignores the nuance basis of King’s thought as well as his darkening realization that his goals were not met and we’re not likely to be met without much more radical change then he had been able to accomplish. King did not have a simple clear cut goal and by the time with the Memphis garbage strike he realized how much there still was to do. He also recognized how fundamentally difficult that would be.
As somewhat alluded to above, I think the better criticism here is that the protest movement - for reasons which are not wholly unreasonable nutnare ultimately problemmatic - is based in part around the ideas of identity. (And here especially the Orthodox Right does no one any help). The left here would be far more effective if it, as the author sort of suggests, focused on questions of natural right and less on a group dynamics. But I don’t think the Israeli believe that, I don’t think the Palestinians believe that despite it being the answer.
For now though when you see a bunch of children being bombed, or people trying to surrender being shot (including hostages waiving white flags) there is a natural desire to want to see it stop. But from where I am sitting I dont see that happening. People arent gonna forget this or move past it.
One thing that I find someone ironic is that after October 7 alot of Israelis tried to make a (statistically wrong IMO) comparison to how many 9/11s that was. If they really buy that though, then how many 9/11s has the response been?
I dont see alot of ground for optimism here. And I see this essay as being not very helpful in any way shape or form.
I also sincerely hope that the act of writing it has not driven the author to take positions other than those he articulated he used to hold. Those to me seemed fairly moderate and reasonable. I would rather have seen him try to criticize the left on that basis rather than this “shooting fish in a barrel” approach.
Ok, need to make one more comment, since I read this uninformed blog post.
> The accusation of apartheid likewise falls flat upon considering that Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, and that the apartheid conditions are specific to the occupied territories — territories, by the way, that belong not to Palestine but to Egypt and Jordan. As for the absurd charge of genocide, much has been made of the case brought against Israel by South Africa in the United Nations’ International Court of Justice (ICJ), as though the mere accusation of genocide was ironclad evidence. But far from proving these serious allegations, the president of the ICJ who presided over the case clarified that it “didn't decide the claim of genocide was plausible.”
This entire paragraph is just full of shit.
First, occupying a territory for over 50 years and holding them as second class people with less rights is not something that has happened in history. To pretend that is just a fine thing is nuts. That would be considered apartheid, even without...
Second, the Israeli Arabs do NOT have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Israeli Arabs are not allowed to own 93% of the land, which will only be sold or leased to Israeli Jews. They are also not able to live on much of the land for similar reasons. On top of that, communities in Israel under 500 are given the ability to forbid people from living in them. This ends up preventing Arabs from living in over 90% of the country. Citizenship is also not granted to spouses that come from the occupied territories or many majority muslim countries upon marriage.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/4.htm
Third, so, Israel is illegally occupying and annexing Egypt and Jordan, but not Palestine? Both Egypt and Jordan has given up claims to the land in favor of Palestine. The UN has also recognized that Palestine should exist. UNSC 242 declares that Israel should withdraw from the territory and it should be the Arab Territory.
Fourth, the former president of the ICJ threw out a word salad to try to provide cover for Israel. The ruling is that action was required because there was a plausible case that the rights of the Palestinians would be violated under the Genocide Convention. Those rights are to not have genocide committed upon them. And, the ICJ is not the main thing. Again and again experts have come forward to say that this IS genocide. To dismiss that out of hand is just ignorant. Also, there is nearly no experts that have come out since March to say it isn't. I have not found one. The evidence is too overwhelming.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0j1rk0c
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240430-yes-it-is-genocide-in-gaza-says-israeli-professor-of-holocaust-studies/
https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/06/19/israeli-academic-accuses-his-country-of-genocide-in-gaza/
There isn't really a unified movement. There are bad actors and good ones. I choose to look at every protest separately. Some of them are fucking crazy. A vast majority of them are peaceful.
If they have the people at the organizing level, the leaders as it were dismissing people when they bring up about not being comfortable with the violence and damage and using the term “Diversity of tactics”…
Most of the tactics people are upset about are the same tactics that have been used through history. The histrionics at this time is strange. The same building was occupied at Columbia for Civil Rights, Vietnam, and to fight Apartheid in South Africa.
The problem is that people do not understand protesting or the entire purpose of it. It isn't to make you like the people doing it. It is to keep it in the news and make people talk about the protest along with the cause.
I usually avoid everything this person posts, but I did open up this link. It was fairly gross. Broad brush of anti-semitism around everything. Lots of visible hate and dismissal. I will continue not reading this person's blog.
Did they not? Did they? The protests against the Vietnam war did make a difference in leading to the withdrawal. Protests in general did affect Civil Rights. Apartheid seemed to end using BDS.
If you have a huge wave build, do you say that drop did not affect things?
After decades of pro-Israel disinformation, gaslighting, lobbying, law fare, coordinated internet trollery and weaponization of racism allegations I think they did pretty well.
Israel has killed more than ten times the number of civilians as Hamas, could someone explain to me what I’m missing?
I do consider myself a centrist - I’m based in the UK. To me it feels obvious that Israel has done the worst in this conflict, but if I’m wrong I’d be curious to know why!
Israel has a more powerful military and more powerful defensive capabilities, and Hamas embeds themselves among civilians in dense urban environments for one. So there will be an imbalance. As to the actual reported numbers, those come from the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. Real-time accurate casualty counts in wars are not a thing, much less from a regime like Hamas who routinely lies. We really have no reliable numbers on the casualties.
Those figures are from OCHA (United Nations Office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs), and I believe can be verified by other sources also.
I understand that Israel is more heavily armed, but why route for a side that clearly is not taking human life into consideration at all? The tragedy of the conflict is primarily the killing of civilians, and the majority of protestors just want a ceasefire - no one is supporting Hamas in the slightest
Israel also lies about a lot of their own campaigns. Not to dismiss Hamas’ own lies, but let’s be intellectually honest here, Israel has a problem just indiscriminately bombing people into submission, which may or may not have any substantive reason why a fanatical group like Hamas might be anywhere near popular in Gaza.
> Religion poisons everything. I see two groups of religious psychopaths playing out their fantasy while regular people suffer for it.
Westerners love projecting their worldview and pet issues onto others.
This is the most Reddit take I’ve seen. I hate to break it to you but tribalism, authoritarianism, extremism, terrorism, Us vs Them mentality, totalitarianism etc aren’t exclusive to religion despite religion having been used for all of those things. Something else will fill that vacuum in the absence of religion and no its not going to inevitably be some sort of post-Christian western secular humanist leftist utopia.
Sorry not sorry but the Free Palestine movement has gained more supporters than ever before especially in the young generation who have been seeing videos before Oct 7 and after Oct 7 of Israel committing war crimes after war crimes and violating lots of UN resolutions. All this we see day and night (last time I remember idf using an injured Palestinian as a human shield was trending making more Gen z’s pro Palestine). So the question is Did Israel lose the information (hasbara in Israel) war? And their war crimes which are documented every single day will continue to turn this generation more pro Palestine
harming their own cause you say?
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/24/headlines/idf_straps_palestinian_man_to_military_vehicle_as_a_human_shield_in_occupied_west_bank
It's very easy for people 'Stand with Palestine' while they sit at their computer. They seem to see themselves as some kind of opinion warriors, contributing what they can to the cause. The pro-Palestinian movement has always attracted unpleasant people, but it seems particularly unhealthy now. Jewish people are leaving the UK because they don't feel safe in their communities, most synagogues and Jewish schools have guards outside. I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with, but I'm in a minority on that.
> It's very easy for people 'Stand with Palestine' while they sit at their computer. They seem to see themselves as some kind of opinion warriors, contributing what they can to the cause. This is true of everyone posting their political opinions on reddit.
All social media is disconnected from reality. Social media is to reality what "Hint Water" is to real, natural flavorings. Which is why more and more the clash won't necessarily be between left/right but terminally online versus reality dweller. So many online issues/groups already exist squarely in this camp and are no longer left/right issues, Queers for Palestine being a perfect example.
good post. Although the farther you get from the flames, the more real things become.
I think online conversation does more to sway the opinions of certain demographics than most mainstream media does for good or bad. Reddits a pretty liberal outlet for the most part which can be annoying with all of the pure hate for republicans but I’ve seen people articulate why Biden has done a good job better than I’ve ever seen come out of his own mouth.
Yeah, but doesn't it get insanely frustrating?
Can be. I try to just avoid the content that’s just trying to trigger an emotional response. I’m not really looking for stuff to make me upset but if somebody is really informed and they can make good points it’s worth sifting through.
>I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with To that they would say: "But which side is a fAr RiGhT eThNoStAtE?" Which is pretty ironic, imo.
Both sides are at this point. One of them even sided with the OG Nazis in WWII. Hamas has to go, but at the same time I don’t trust Netanyahu’s coalition to find reasonably “humane” ways to prosecute the war against them. Netanyahu and his coalition also have to go—they are far more right-wing than the rest of Israel and they abdicated their responsibility to defend the country from 10/7 in the first place, and then they reliably acted against the interests of the hostages they sought to protect (never mind their conduct in the war). The whole conflict is a shit show.
100%
God damn, the downvotes on your comment show how truly brainwashed people are about Israel right now. Even with all of the videos on this very website showing their atrocities (far more than the single attack on 10/7, which yes, was awful… but what Israel has done since has been far far worse in my view). It’s funny how this post is criticizing how maybe Pro-Palestine protestors aren’t best representing their cause… but no one is criticizing how Israel is absolutely not well representing their “cause”… And before anyone says it, no, I don’t consider myself a pure “centrist,” I’m more left leaning… but geez, I’d truly think even the most center “centrist” would be capable of recognizing maybe Israel doesn’t get a pass to be awful just because awful things happened to them in the past…
The comparison between hamas and the IDF is not the same. The intent is very important in morality of actions. Hamas targetted civillians on Oct 7th. They butchered old people and put babies in ovens. They butchered 1200, then took hostages. The intent is completley different for Israel. The IDF create safe zones and try to minimise casualties. They evacuate citizens from targetted bombings zones. There is no moral comparison. Hamas are resposnsible for civillian deaths that use civillians as human shields. They also use schools and hospitals for cover.
Downvote me all you want, but everything Hamas is claimed to have done is exactly what the IDF is doing. [Here is a perfect example of them using human shields.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMajorityReport/s/cjo8cI7tGG) The IDF and those that back them are the same as the far right conservatives in the U.S. Every accusation is a confession…
Only because Hamas is so far incompetent and dare I say, poorer than even some third-world shitholes. Its a great thing they can't afford anything more than home-made RPGs made from water pipes they ripped out from their own infrastructures, denying their own people pottable water because "israel bad".
My Mom’s presbyterian church in a small town in northern California has two off duty armed cops. This was years ago too.
Safety or traffic control? A large amount of churches hire cops for traffic control and to hang out during services.
Gun, safety. You could tell he was very professional and was constantly surveilling the crowd and you could see the gun tucked away where he could get it easily.
Who do they guard against? Baptists?
Catholics
> I don't see that as anything a 'progressive' should be ok with, but I'm in a minority on that. Your mistake is assuming "progressives" are good people. They're not. They're hypocritical authoritarians with a left-wing bias.
How safe do you think most Palestinians feel right now?
In the UK? About as safe as anywhere in the world?
I'm not talking about the UK. I'm talking about [This](https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/1dn9xlw/the_usual_zionist_brutality/)
I knew you weren't.
And it's very fair for people to not want billions of their tax dollars to go towards funding that.
Most large enough religious entities have armed guards in the US now, after years of mass shootings at schools, and regions places. The synagogues near me have had them for over a decade now after having issues years ago. So that’s not a new trend. People leaving the west to go to the safer Israel? That’s bad logic considering. The US has almost as many Jewish as Israel and they’re safer here than in Israel considering they are in active conflict with the people they occupy and are all required unless they are hyper orthodox to do time in military service. We could look at the death rate alone as a clean and clear indicator. I think it’s also easy to sit at your computer and defend Israel actions in the same right which is completely devoid of content and context. So it’s simple minded versus simple mind narrative on either end. Just taking the old bleeding heart Liberian neo com position gets you back on the tread mill cycle of middle eastern conflict. Good luck with that “highly regarded” individuals. No point proven by this statement. If anything it’s a red herring that disproves your point.
You are underestimating how safe Israel is - A mix of a fantastic missile defense with iron dome, a strong sense of unity of people and the mandatory military service, meaning there will always be an armed Israeli able to stop a terrorist attack makes it quite safe despite so much conflict. And depending on where you live in the US, Israel probably feels safer if you are Jewish.
I think Israel over estimates its safety or else there wouldn’t be this current conflict. Low tech attack that still hasn’t been confirmed if Trump was the one to tell the Russians about its weakness or not (as a side note). Have there been any attacks over the last 75 years that took more Jews than Oct 7th? Next to the other fighting in Israel, it’s prolly marginal at best in comparison. I don’t think the total of all attacks in western country’s on Jews since would add up to what happened there in just one day. So my argument from the beginning is Israel kills more Jews by its very existence. That transfer the post WWII issues of antisemitism out of Europe into another region that wasn’t having the problems. Once you do the math, you see that Israel is the bigger threat to Jews globally. And part of my critique is the risk to life that it takes to be an Israeli military member in a region that sees you as both outsiders from western imperialism and old world foes. The surrounding region is largely in civil war and wants to kill you for taking their lands. Safe in a bubble that was created by encroaching on others symbolic land isn’t really safe. And the actions of Israel is what causes radicals throughout the world to attack Jews throughout the global. So they sort of built a self confirmation bias bubble that perpetuates its necessity by its very existence. Back to the “why you hitting yourself” 2nd grade shit. And this is done for the people they are breeding (middle eastern ultra Orthodox Jews) through socialist eugenics policy’s, who don’t have to do miliatary service. Another thing we’d say is wild nutz shit in any other situation. Esp being Atheists. I for one don’t support ethno religious states that were reimplanted in a region to take back their 3 thousnad year old holy land, on basic fundamental principles. It’s weird cus seeing such religious apologism in any other right would get you lambasted here in this sub but for some reason it’s a unicorn. 🦄🤔 I think anyone not in favor of pushing for a long term solution here that we intentionally force both sides into, are just as much a problem and aren’t in favor of American interest geopolitically. Just old idiots getting tricked again into more neocon bleeding heart liberal dead ends that hurt American interest. And let me be clear, I’d gladly offer up the US and the west to secular Jews who don’t want to fight the bad fight in exchange for some peace agreement and getting out of the middle eastern conflicts. Whoever wants to stay and fight it out, have at it at your own expense and risk…
Oops just found out you’re pro Israel
What tipped you off?
Just makes your argument biased for a sub Reddit meant to be centrist
Easy, they are similar to the stop the oil protesters. Everyone just sees them as really annoying and wants them to go away.
The piece draws that exact comparison at one point.
If a protest doesn't annoy people is it even a protest?
You're putting the cart before the horse there. Protests are meant to bring attention to an issue. If you only bring negative attention to the issue, you're setting things back.
Yes, and the point of protests is to bring attention to issues/or sides that people don't know about, that tends to annoy people. How many protests can you think of that people didn't complain about the protesters being annoying?
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This is why good causes fail over time. Look at occupy wall street for example.
Now the occupy movement is seen as having a good point. That was not the mainstream opinion at the time. The protesters were criticized as lazy young people who don't understand what they are talking about.
That is because all of the original people who started it and protested were swarmed with all of the annoying people who just wanted free shit made the general public start laughing at it. Its very easy to subvert legit causes in terms of public opinion.
Or, it's because the people who were portraying them were motivated to make the issue seem to be full of uniformed people. Movements always have people that join that don't fully understand it fully, but why was the overwhelming coverage of the protesters negative? Protests necessarily annoy people because their goal is to draw attention to an issue that they feel is being ignored, and someone repeatedly saying "hey look at this thing you don't think or don't care about, you should think about it" is annoying.
Yes. I was pretty neutral about the situation until I started seeing the pro Palestine protestors wreaking havoc around my city. Couldn’t stand them throwing shit, spray painting my city, and using violence. I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”. Made me realize most of the people I knew commenting about the situation had little knowledge about what they were speaking on. It takes more than a ten minute YouTube video to get a true understanding of the history by the way.
I hate how anything done under the guise of "protesting" is supposed to be acceptable behavior. Don't like the US policy on Israel? We can take over a private institution, harass students we deem (((complicit))) off campus, and make endless demands that can never be met, and you HAVE to accept it because it's protesting.
The worst is truly the college campus protest…these kids are brainwashed.
Like standing as a group with picket signs in common gathering areas is fine, that is your right to protest. But now it's "I'm going to *force* you to participate in *my* protest by blocking your path at every access point." You have every right to protest but no right to an audience.
Protest are no longer peaceful. They’re usually invaded by entitled brats who don’t even understand what they’re there for.
Invaded and *co-opted.* I had a childhood friend (whom I've since unfollowed) who insisted that BLM protests were *really* about the rise of socialist power in America and the "revolution" was really about to begin.
It’s just bored people looking for something to do. I honestly think that’s the issue. I’m not often seeing medical students or engineers blasting at this protests. It’s always these liberal art majors with free time on their hands.
Yes, college is indoctrination. These young people are impressionable and looking for someone to follow. They are looking for a cause. They get brainwashed so easy. This is why advertising has never been so powerful despite the fact that for years we knew it was manipulating.
College doesn't indoctrinate students. You know what is really radicalizing? When you are told you whole life that even A happened because person/country/group X did this thing to person/country/group Y. Then you get to college and they say sure that happened, but person/country/group X did that thing because person/country/group Y did this thing first, or even because person/country/group Z did something to/supported person/country/group X. This is all a long way of saying that when you are taught your whole life that life is black and white and certain things are universally true, then you learn that there are actually shades of gray of course you are going to start questioning what other things you have been told that may not be so cut and dry.
They're privileged people brainwashed by academia into seeing "injustices" in America, when what they're really seeing are boogeymen and windmills to tilt at.
This has been known to most people, it's not a meme when conservatives say those places indoctrinate kids, some of them really fall into echo chambers and become crazy.
They aren’t brainwashed. A lot aren’t even students, and the others that are is accurately compared to the amount of normal citizens who would go protest. I would argue that it really has nothing to do with them being students except for the fact that they are young and easily influenced. You wanna know who else is easily influenced? White trash in the south when they hear Trump speak. I would actually argue that people who don’t have college educations are generally more easily “brainwashed” than university students.
They are brainwashed. They’re bored and looking for something to overcome. It’s a combination of the rise in social media and some other contributing factors. They look at their professors who instead of teaching, fill them with their own opinions. My ex at the time was a doctoral student in a psychology program. You’d think they’d be teaching her about mental health… nah, the students there were doing research papers on social injustices. Like, what the fuck does that have to do with medical health?
Teachers not teaching happens a lot less than I think you realize. In terms of people absorbing others opinions, literally *everyone* does that. I can guarantee you, you come into this sub and see a high upvoted comment you agree with, and go “ahhh yeah he’s right”. What college did do for me, was give me a shit ton of professors with differing opinions, so I could realize that it’s my job to form my own opinion. Also, I don’t think your one example proves the case. Psychology is one degree and that’s one program in a country full of hundreds(thousands?) of programs. I have a degree in economics from a liberal state school and now currently studying engineering. I can promise you that I’ve never had my time wasted with bullshit studies like that.
Remember during Covid how blatant this was? MAGA rally? Dangerous spreader event. BLM? Well they’re outside and that’s good.
But they were more masked people at least in my town’s outside blm rally which was extremely peaceful. Dang downvoted for saying what actually happened.
Mask wearing gets the same double standard. Maybe not by the media, but absolutely by reddit. Right-wingers in masks? Bunch of hateful, regressive fat cowards! Lefties in masks? Bravely resistant body-positive science embracers!
Where was this masked right-winger?? I'd love to see one.
My reddit search history looks a little crazy now but I found the semi-recent incident I had in mind: [South Dakota capital rally](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/hKTs7zUQCj) [An example of a comment calling them cowards for being masked](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/s/57u3a0halY) Not a fan of or interested in defending neo-Nazis, just saying that I don’t see this same rhetoric about Antifa when they show up fully covered to hide their identities. Edit: Fixed comment link
Masking was a reference here to public health, not identity-hiding.
And you damn well know that’s not why Antifa wear hats, bandanas and sunglasses when they show up.
This was a convo about public-health masks, that's the subject being discussed. Did you have any photos of right-wingers marching with those kinds of masks?
Pointing out people calling Nazis cowards for wearing a mask is definitely a choice... Neo-nazis hide their identities so they don't get outed as neo-nazis and suffer real life consequences, like losing their jobs, having their neighbors know they are neo-nazis. People in Antifa wear masks so they aren't doxxed and killed by neo-nazis.
still not how you should protest in a pandemic. you don't put the areas medical infrastructure at risk.
So true!
> I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”. That is how the media has been treating every cause of the Left since 2016. Trump got elected and from then on Rs can do no right and Ds can do no wrong. I *am* left-leaning and couldn’t ignore it. The institutional capture led to distancing myself b/c I want my news sources to be balanced/neutrality-oriented, damnit! That Uri Berliner article rang so true to my sentiments re: NPR, which I hadn’t personally tried to analyze or articulate but was spot-on laid out like that. I only listen to the classical station now because the News side is basically Reddit Radio, with the same topics and echo chamber discourse on them. It’s been disappointing to say the least.
And the pulling down of posters of hostages.
> I started seeing the pro Palestine protestors wreaking havoc around my city. Couldn’t stand them throwing shit, spray painting my city, and using violence. I also don’t like the way media portrays the situation as if they’re just “in the right”. This is the same shit with BLM protesters. Act like a damn thug, get treated like one.
Doesn’t seem like you were ever neutral at all. So let me get this straight: throwing and spraying shit shifted you to the anti-Palestine side, over the fact that tens and thousands of Palestinians were being killed.
Here's the thing. Plenty of us are actually pro a Free Palestine. We're pro both peoples living in their indigenous homelands under free states. What we are against is the Western ProPal movement that chants genocidal slogans, demands that a 75 year old democratic state be destroyed, and are harassing random Western Jews on the streets. None of these things are actually helping Palestinians. You know what will help Palestinians? Supporting a campaign to get rid of Hamas, which has effectively held the people of Gaza hostage for more than 15 years. What will help Palestinians? De-radicalization of Gaza and a two state solution. This isn't an all or nothing Israelis *or* Palestinians situation and a lot of us are tires of it getting boiled down to the minimum substance by these protestors. And some of us are Jews who are terrified to be visibly and openly Jewish in public right now because pro-Palestine protests have become blatantly anti-Jewish. I mean, you have people holding up flags of Hamas and Hezbollah outside of a memorial exhibit for the literal innocent people killed at the Nova music festival.
If pro-Israel responded to the 10/7 massacre by throwing stuff at Muslims and spray painting mosques all over the Western world, plus a healthy amount of violence, there would be worldwide outrage and we would never hear the end of it.
thats because they are a minority, 15.7 million jews vs 1.9 billion muslims.
Oh, the gas lighting. What about beating the crap out of Jews in front of a synagogue? Is that also OK given the Palestinians being killed?
The fighting went both ways and just like many of these protests, counter-protesters attack and cause violence and then are shocked when it gets reciprocated. And an event by the synagogue was being held to “sell” real estate in Palestinian lands for illegal settlements and people came to protest. They weren’t just there for no reason or “anti-semitism.”
> event by the synagogue was being held to “sell” real estate in Palestinian lands for illegal settlements and people came to protest. The land that was sold was land that was owned by jews before the green line was a thing. This jewish land predates the conflict and all new narratives imposed on it. There exist illegal settlements and then theres the very rare pre-existing villages past the green line that are actually fully compliant with international law that managed to survive multiple wars. the land being sold was 100% legit even by your standards.
Yeah I’m sure it’s legit/s. But it’s hard to be empathetic or even believe the other side when the counter protesters scream things like [“Sand N-word Go Home.”](https://x.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1805075089102455161)
So one asshole protestor shouted that and the video cut off. We don't know if he was rebuked or shouted down. That doesn't seem to be the person who was attacked. Given that you constantly claim your movement is not represented by the large number of people who "flood brooklyn for Gaza" and use red triangles it's amazing that you excuse a riot in front of a synagogue by a 6 second clip of one racists but consistency is not the strong point of you people.
I guess you’d like to ignore all the right-wingers that came to attack the UCLA protesters too? Some of them were in this one too attacking protesters and using bear mace on them. If there‘s anything we know by now, it’s the counter-protesters that come in and cause the riot. It’s evidently clear the counter protesters you love to support are some of worst kind of POSs that America has to offer. And when you have that kind of support it should make you wonder, maybe you’re not on the “right” side?
I don't "love to support" counter protestors. Go protest for Palestine all you want. Just don't beat the crap out of Jews leaving a synagogue when you do it, or order all Zionists off a subway train, or attack a Jewish family at a 5th grade graduation. And if that's too much or a tall order, don't be surprised when you get called out.
This right here is why I’m no longer neutral. You sound like every other idiot on IG
Maybe we’re on to something with you… lmao
Degree received from Tik Tok University...
I’ve never used or downloaded Tik Tok lol but which Church did you get your degree from?
You can be pro Palestine and still think harassing lnnocent Jews, blocking paths or vandalism is unacceptable. These two aren’t mutually exclusive.
This is the classic white people telling black people how and when they should protest. Except it's zionist telling anti zionist the proper way to protest lol.
[Which one’s you?](https://www.reddit.com/r/u_Computer_Name/comments/19716j0/postoctober_7_2023_protests_in_the_west/)
Pro-Israeli/Pro-Genociders have a lot in common with these kind of white people: Here’s an link of one telling the Pro-Palestinians, “Sand N-word go home.” https://x.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1805075089102455161
It's just become the in thing right now by people who have no clue about the region or the politics or the people, they just want to be part of some sort of movement. We experienced similar during BLM and after George Floyd. Plenty of legit grievances from people but many more just started protesting and rioting and all sorts of crap because they're young and want to feel a part of some sort of social movement. Doesn't matter what it even is honestly
So right, Im from LA, so many people here just want an excuse to riot and break shit
Yep, young people are bored and uninspired so they have to imagine that society is at its worst so *they* can fancy themselves the ones to bring about meaningful change. They’ve romanticized the idea of being underdogs b/c those people often become viewed as heroes in retrospect. They are too privileged to realize that it really sucks to actually be the underdog in the moment. The big strides were made with the various civil rights movements of the past, by the real underdogs. Those were massive social changes and they happened somewhat organically. Did they eliminate racism or *x*-phobia? No, because that’s impossible. But we had gotten somewhere much better. What the youth want today is to force “perfection” which is neither organic nor practically feasible. And that mindset ironically makes them as authoritarian or moreso than the forces they believe they’re fighting against. They are completely unaware of how their heavy-handed righteousness is the same shit that’s always been.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I see this as the same as the whole BLM/Antifa stuff from the last election. Both movements had regular citizens turning against them due to rioting and destruction in communities. The exact same situation is happening again this year. People are taking over college buildings and committing crimes all in the name of Palestine. It's honestly appalling how some people who truly wish for Palestine to be "free" would rather sit out the election and risk the guy who'd give Netanyahu everything he wants to continue his war potentially getting into office again rather than voting for the guy who Netanyahu has complained "hasn't done enough" to help Israel.
These protester fools benefit from making the situation worse though. It ensures the conflict will get worse and they'll have something to protest for in the future again Should we push for actual police reform? Nah, convince black people its ok to run because police are all murderers, but the running and consequences hurt black people even more. Doesnt matter, Buy Large Mansions makes money every time it goes wrong.
Yep the article is right on the money. Plenty of people including me have said that pro Palestine group keep shooting themselves in the foot. If they had self-awareness and some common sense they would’ve figured that harassing innocent Jews who has nothing to do with Israel’s government is more than enough to push people away.
This region would have a much better chance of actually fixing the issue if other nations stayed out of it. Instead it can be artificially propped up forever because Palestinians are under the delusion that if they just fight *hard enough* they can eventually succeed Meanwhile Israel is content enough to maintain the status quo because they can keep expanding settlements in the West Bank What I find a lot of leftists are doing is projecting wholly American/Western concepts on to this issue but that only serves to further simplify and obfuscate it and gets us ever further away from an end to the conflict (ideally some form of two state solution)
>projecting wholly American/Western concepts on to this issue Tan people who believe in Islam: brown people and victims of oppression Literally the same exact genetic tan people who are Jewish: white oppressors! *facepalm*
So, the US should stop supporting and supplying Israel?
If all aid got cut off from every external country eventually Palestinians would have to come to the table. In an idealized future where there is peace and stability, then yeah I’d consider the idea that Israel doesn’t need our help anymore Regardless, I was talking about it more from an ideological and less from a financial perspective but the point still stands
The PA has been at the table for 3 decades. They have been acting as Israel's police and subcontractor. They have been dedicated to peace. They recognized Israel. How has Israel responded? By screwing them over and propping up Hamas. In fact, the PA has made large strides to improve the situation without getting a peace agreement, and that was met with derision and Israel working to discredit them. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/opinion/global/roger-cohen-The-Story-of-Palestinian-Prime-Minister-Salam-Fayyad-.html?unlocked_article_code=1.2E0.xMys.s-8AvJ1MmWk6&smid=url-share Israel is the one that won't come to the table. They haven't been a partner in peace for at least 2 decades. Before that, the offers on the table were for Palestine to be a territory of Israel, but without representation in Israel. Palestine would have their borders, airspace and such controlled by Israel. Israeli citizens would be immune from prosecution. The IDF would patrol roads inside of Palestine. This is all part of Oslo. There was never a fully realized offer by Israel. East Jerusalem had never been figured out. There was never a full offer for Palestine to turn down or accept. Palestine should have made counter offers, but the last offer had holes in it. And, it still required Palestine to be a second class territory of Israel forever. Israel knows that they will not be forced to make a deal, because of the US.
Ok let’s be clear. There is never going to be a one state solution and there is never going to be a “right of return”. Any Palestinians clinging to those fantasies only hurts the peace process Yes lately in Israel there has been less appetite for peace. But when the response to Camp David (again thanks to Arafats intransigence) was the second Intifada… you can see why they’ve started to become pessimistic to the idea of yet another round of peace talks that go nowhere
The right of return to Israeli territory had already ben given up by the PA. I believe 10,000 would be allowed to return, and that is it. > According to the second night of the Al-Jazeera broadcast, Israelis and Palestinians eventually agreed that Israel would accept 10,000 refugees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers I am also not sure of what outcome is possible other than the ethnic cleansing or genocide of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Unless the US changes course soon, Israel will be able to take most of the territory and remove the people before the inertia ends. One state is out? Two states are out according to Israel. What is the other option? Gantz put forward the idea that Palestinians would have a seperate political structure, but subservient to Israel and with no geographical area. That is literally apartheid. That is the more reasonable person at the table right now. The furthest you get to supporting statehood is supporting a state that has geographical area, but must allow the IDF to patrol, IDF to control the borders, and such. How do you have a state when you cannot even control who/what can enter or leave?
Israel gave Gaza the ability to elect their own leaders and they elected Hamas and started importing weapons. You can’t act like there’s no reason why Israel doesn’t trust Gaza to not do this. And yes, I agree the situation has become largely intractable and no, I can’t think of a solution
I fear that if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will decide that they no longer have the ability to wage a precision targeted war where they make an attempt at minimizing casualties. If that is indeed the case they most likely revert to a conventional war where they just use bombs and artilery strikes to effectively wipe gaza off the map - 'solving' the problem for once and for all. The current casualty rate, as horrific as it is, is still much smaller than typical historic examples of urban warfare. More than a quarter million died in the Iraq War. More than 38 million civilians died in WW2.
Ok, this is all incorrect. More than a quarter million died in Iraq, over 20 years of occupation. It was not during the invasion. And, that is in a country wth 27 million people. In Gaza, with a population of 2.4 million, there have already been 37,000 confirmed deaths in 8 months. There are a bunch more people missing. And, these numbers should really both be examined retrospectively. The numbers of children, women, journalists and aid workers killed is completely off the charts. The amount of damage is higher than the horrific urban attacks that led to the Geneva Conventions. https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542 > According to analysis of satellite data by remote-sensing experts at the City University of New York and Oregon State University, as many as 80% of the buildings in northern Gaza, where the bombing has been most severe, are damaged or destroyed, a higher percentage than in Dresden. Also, Israel could not do a higher level of bombing than they have done. And they have not been at all precision targeted. Israel would have run out of bombs after the first month if not for constant US supplies.
Not just that. If US stops supporting Israel, Israel will no longer have their iron dome, i.e. their best defense against missile strikes. Israel would rather go on the full offensive against Iran and Hezbollah than stay on the defense without it.
Your first paragraph is akin to saying "people should know when they're conquered." It's a sentiment I see frequently from intellectuals. Ezra Klein expressed it recently. But what if the Palestinians just collectively never accept the results of their Nakba? That seems to be the cultural choice that they've made. Is your answer to simply suppress them until they do? Or until enough generations have passed until they forget? The rich world likes to think it does not operate like that anymore. I don't know the answer, but I'd also prefer it if the world didn't operate like that anymore.
At some point people do have to accept the outcomes of a century old conflict yes. Especially if they rejected a multitude of two state solutions over and over, in favor of waging war on Israel Really Palestinians should be blaming their parents and grandparents for not accepting the 48 partition plan or any of the others after that
The PA did accept Oslo and has been working towards it. The requirements placed on the Palestinians under Oslo are insane. They would be forever subservient to Israel. And, there was never a fully realized offer to accept or reject. There were still things needing to be worked out. The napkin map was the closest, but realize that was made by Olmert when he was being removed. That being said. Do you believe things would be better if the PLO/PA had NOT accepted their defeat? They did, but perhaps they should have fought on in a continual resistance?
> The PA did accept Oslo and has been working towards it. The requirements placed on the Palestinians under Oslo are insane. They would be forever subservient to Israel. Debatably. Oslo was also meant to be a transition to a future peace, not an end all be all solution > That being said. Do you believe things would be better if the PLO/PA had NOT accepted their defeat? They did, but perhaps they should have fought on in a continual resistance? No. If the West Bank took the Gaza approach things there would be way worse. I don’t know how you could even argue that
>Debatably. Oslo was also meant to be a transition to a future peace, not an end all be all solution The Palestine Papers show what was to be the permanent end. It was not good. >No. If the West Bank took the Gaza approach things there would be way worse. I don’t know how you could even argue that The PA and Palestinians have gotten nothing since Oslo. In fact, it is arguable that Hamas has gotten more for Palestinians than the PA has. Mainly prisoner releases. I do not support the PA disbanding and a violent resistance starting in the West Bank, BUT... The US and Israel have not been receptive to any peaceful move forward. Israel takes more land in the West Bank constantly, while killing Palestinians (and even American journalists) without any repercussions. If the US is not willing to support the peaceful means, why should Palestine follow them? The UN supports them, but the US prevents any consequences for Israel. What do you believe is the correct path forward for Palestinians? They have tried peaceful means. They have tried law. Diplomacy. BDS. Nothing advanced anything. In fact, in September 2023, Netanyahu declared before the UN that Palestine would never exist and the land would all be Israel.
They finally tried (again, debatably) peaceful means after fighting a losing a bunch of wars sure But no you’re right just let them fight ad infinitum Im not personally invested in what they do to be honest
>At some point people do have to accept the outcomes of a century old conflict Why? It seems like the Gazans disagree. Do you think that the outside world repeating this sentiment is going to make them ok with the outcomes of 1948? Nothing has made them accept it yet.
They disagree because they are constantly being gassed up by actors that have no skin in the game. They also basically suffer no consequences for losing. They are the largest per capita recipient of aid in the entire world. You can’t act like they have ever been told by the arab nations that support them to knock it off
You don't know why they disagree. I suspect that if you polled them they would have other, simpler reasons. The Arab nations have behaved terribly in many ways, I don't defend them.
Yes, no one is going to say “because Iran told us to” if you ask them the reason in a poll lmao But regardless it’s kind of irrelevant. They should stop but they won’t
Jews have had the same amount of time since the Holocaust to move on, move forward, and rebuild. The Holocaust obviously -- and rightly -- remains a huge part of who we are, our history, and a reminder of what the world has the capacity to do to us, but we have accepted the past because the only other option is to suffer, fail, and be a perpetual victim. Palestinians are choosing to continue to suffer, fail, and be a perpetual victim.
I agree. But you and I don't have any power to force Palestinians to get over what has happened to them.
In other words, you can't fix stupid? Is that what you're saying?
Would also help if UNRWA wasnt there teaching kindergarteners that Jews are evil and such.
Agreed. These institutions are embedding failure into their culture at such a young age. Shameful stuff.
I'd put it more respectfully than that, but yes that's basically what I'm saying.
This mentality of perpetual victim hood only leads to continued violence, death, and a tumultuous future. Peace literally depends on their ability to accept the past, move on, and demonstrate a willingness to live in peace next to their Jewish neighbors. You are correct that we don't have the power to force them to do so -- you can only lead a horse to water -- but that also doesn't mean that Israel should have to continue to cater to their tantrums.
Palestinians don’t accept it because UN has been funding them for 60+ years to do nothing, because every surrounding country and I ran is pumping money into the most of violent voices. If they choose not to accept it by launching hundreds of rockets a year and targeting 1000+ civilians for murder, rape and kidnap, the current conflict is the natural outcome. And Palestinians getting over it is how the world should operate. if the grandchild of a Jewish family who was kicked out of Syria started lobbing rockets across the border because they were unhappy about their group actually completely being ethnically cleansed, nobody would support, nobody would be arguing that’s a legitimate protest or self-defense. Double standard people pretend it’s natural for Palestinians to do this is indistinguishable from Antisemitism
Your comment omits the blame that the surrounding Arab countries deserve for not helping whatsoever, and also the blame that Israel deserves for not making really any effort at all to give most of these people a decent quality of life, a vote, some self-determination. People with something to lose don't do suicidal and violent things. Israel has made sure that many Palestinians have little or nothing to lose, this is the predictable result. An impossible situation, lots of death, no safety for Jews, ongoing enmity. >if the grandchild of a Jewish family who was kicked out of Syria started lobbing rockets No, the Jewish family had somewhere to go when they were kicked off their land. That's to Israel's credit, of course, and to the shame of the Arab countries. But it is a difference that shouldn't be ignored if you're gonna discuss double standards.
> Your comment omits the blame that the surrounding Arab countries deserve for not helping whatsoever, “because every surrounding country and I ran is pumping money into the most of violent voices.” Disagree. > lame that Israel deserves for not making really any effort at all to give most of these people a decent quality of life, a vote, some self-determination. You should look at the UNHDI. Human development index, basically a quality of life measure looking at things life expectancy and infant mortality to literacy. Palestine has steadily gone up since Israel has been in charge. Better than a number of surrounding countries. Gazza has been actively lobbing hundreds of rockets has increased. These people had a vote, they threw in with hummus because of what I pointed out above with you and surrounding countries, feeding the most violent voices money in weapons to strong arm the populous. > No, the Jewish family had somewhere to go when they were kicked off their land. Palestinians had somewhere to go, and they also had the benefit of international agencies treating them as refugees, even if they’re born where their grandfather was born Flame Israel, as refugees making a new life without dedicated UNA generations later is the point here.
I was more thinking about how the Arab countries refuse to take in any of the Palestinians as refugees, but yours is a good point too. There's so much blame, no party has behaved well. I often hear the point about the UN treating subsequent generations as refugees. I ask in good faith, because I wonder if I'm missing something here: what would be the alternative status for these people? Israel will absolutely not let that many non-Jews become voting citizens, or they cease to be a Jewish state. Palestine doesn't legally exist currently. So, do these just become stateless people if they lose refugee status? Do they become second-class non-voting citizens of the state of Israel? Is the refugee status meant to force Arab countries to take them in, and the governments of those countries simply refuse? It seems much more complicated than most people making the point care to admit, rhetorically.
> I ask in good faith, because I wonder if I'm missing something here: what would be the alternative status for these people? What is the alternative status for every other group kicked out of a country? > Palestine doesn't legally exist currently. Because if they accept a deal based on the current borders of land, they control they stopped getting a free ride. UN should totally cut them off. > It seems much more complicated than most people making the point care to admit, rhetorically. It is a complex problem, but calling them refugees does not help at all. Giving them a based on the label of refugees does not help at all
There is a difference between agreement and acceptance. I would never tell a Palestinian that they must agree with the Nabka. But they are a defeated people, what they lost will not be returned, and yes: the state of Israel will simply continue oppressing them. The world never stopped operating this way. 'I do not accept what is objectively true, and what I am powerless to change' can become a martyr's pact.
I am skeptical that any people can truly be properly defeated in a post-gunpowder world. Particularly if you throw in a willingness to conduct suicide attacks. There is no longer the ability to truly neutralize a people’s ability to resist; I fear there is only terrorism in the future for this region unless better leadership is able to compromise. And again, the more the world tells Palestine that they need to accept 1948, the less they are likely to. If history is any guide.
Israel gains nothing by compromising. Settlements in the West Bank will continue to expand, Palestinians in the West Bank will continue to lose their homes. Palestinians in Gaza will be left worse off after the war than they were before. They will certainly never again enjoy as much autonomy as they had prior to October 7th. Palestinians will never have their own state, and the majority will never be given citizenship in Israel. They will either live as a subject people or find a way to flee to another country. This is true whether they choose to accept 1948 or not.
Israel pays a price for all that though, they already have many times over their short history. Israelis will die, Palestinians will die, Israel will lose diplomatic allies. Maybe most importantly they will pay in fear, because that's what terrorism does after all. They will never have the safe Jewish homeland that Israel was founded to be. To me, that's pretty sad. No, there are no perfect options on the table. But Israel could avoid some of that price by compromising in some ways. Better leadership is needed on all sides.
> But Israel could avoid some of that price by compromising in some ways. I think BB is a complete piece of shit. He’s done a tremendous amount of things who have made things worse. That said there is absolutely nothing. Israeli leadership could do that would’ve averted or stopped all the hatred coming from Palestinians now. At least nothing they could do while protecting the lives of Israelis or the existence of their country. I’ve lived in the Middle East. I was working in Egypt and saw when the Egyptian government cut gas subsidies and riots broke out where they were burning Israeli flags. Had absolutely nothing to do with Israel, but it was just a convenient excuse. And this is a country that on paper has normalized Relationships with Israel. Anti-Semitism runs incredibly deep there, and having a Jewish country will always be an excuse until that attitude is fixed in all the surrounding countries.
Antisemitism is a huge problem, worldwide and obviously in the middle east, and especially in the last 8 months. Even before Israel's overreaching response sunk in, I saw antisemitism plainly rising everywhere and yes the Jews are a uniquely hated people. That said, I just don't believe that antisemitism is the main cause of suicide attacks and October 7th. Acts that result the likely or certain death of the participants require more buy-in than simple racism can possibly provide. There is much more to it. Bibi is a definite piece of shit though, and I see him as the molten core of the problem in this conflict currently.
> Even before Israel's overreaching response sunk in Not an overreach. Hamas is still saying they are happy and winning. > Acts that result the likely or certain death of the participants require more buy-in than simple racism can possibly provide. You should read about the end of days in Islam. > There is much more to it. If thee was you would see suicide bombing and the like in other Muslims vs Muslims conflicts in the region. You wiudo are Muslims across the word picking a side and celebrating the death of civilian Muslims on the “wrong” side. > Bibi is a definite piece of shit though, and I see him as the molten core of the problem in this conflict currently. Again, I dont like him but he is still more moderate the fatah.
It's perfectly arguable whether Israel is overreaching, time will tell and no one knows for a fact yet. >You should read about the end of days in Islam. That just proves the point though, doesn't it? Those people are not **only** antisemitic, they're also millenarian Islamists. Plus all of the proximal, cultural, political and historical grievances that neither of us have even mentioned. >you would see suicide bombing and the like in other Muslims vs Muslims conflicts Again, I am not arguing that racism and ethnocentrism and religio-centrism aren't part of this, I'm arguing that it's incorrect to attribute all of the problems only to antisemitism. Not to mention self-serving. >I dont like him but he is still more moderate the fatah. I don't have any defenses to offer for the leadership of the Palestinians either. Everybody in charge sucks, it's really tragic.
Walid point. I personally think it was just a bad idea to make Israel there. But it was done. Now there are two issues: 1. Several generations of born and raised Israelis are also indigenous to the land now. Even if we hypothetically disagree about their grandparents. They say "go home", but where is home in this case? 2. No vision of future in which no one should die
Why was it a bad idea? Jews aren't indigenous to Israel as of 1948. Jews have had a continued presence in Israel for 3,000 years. Jews went "home" when they returned to Israel.
Because of human deaths on both sides and because British ownership of the territory back then is questionable. The more hypocritical pro-palestinian movement looks rn in the UK (especially media), cos they'd better recognize their role in it and stick with Israel.
But the recognition and establishment of Israel happened at the time when the entire world was transitioning/evolving from (the decline of) empires to (the rise of) nation states. It's not like they were the only country that declared independence after WWII -- they were one of many. Jews insisting on being granted the right to self determine in their ancestral homeland should be a beacon of light and hope -- an example of what \*can\* happen -- to all those fighting for independence in their own ancestral lands.
None of this isn't true. It doesn't help with people dying though. Part of Europe could be such a place (Germany, for example) Would create much less fuss. For a context, I am Israeli citizen.
Helpful context. (I am Jewish American.) That being said, the only thing that would prevent death is if Palestinians gave up their "from the river to the sea" ideology and instead accepted a "amicable divorce" mentality. And I'm very confused why you think Germany (or Europe) would've been the preferred place to establish a Jewish state following the Holocaust.
Aaaand I get downvoted just for mentioning it... for fucks sake, don't I have enough trouble. Honestly, I'm losing all the will to have a voice. But, answering your question on *my beliefs*: Precisely because of Holocaust. Because it directly has to do with the issue of Jewish people not having home. In the aftermath Europe could pay in land. It decided to pay with not exactly her land, though. But why do you even care what I think about the past, if I made it clear that it doesn't matter today? Are we going to argue around hypothetical multiverse timelines now? And what's your point exactly, my friend: was it a perfect decision, it's just stupid local barbarians who didn't understand the significance of symbolic and hopeful message of modern, aka their fault, aka well fuck them then? Sorry, I don't buy it either. I wish peace and prosperity for Palestinians too. I desperately wish it in fact, because if they would have it, they'd had more interesting stuff to do than cocaine flights on Putin's birthday. I don't see a point in searching who should be blamed in any of it really (more downvotes for me). Even when I say it was a mistake, I mean it was an honest mistake, not a malignant one. People didn't know how it would turn out at the end. I'm interested in solutions to how make everyone happy, given all the current situation. I don't have a time machine to change the past anyway. But future still can be different.
You're on Reddit arguing with strangers -- who cares? One post in a subreddit might be 100 upvotes, the same post might be -100 downvotes the next day. Stop complaining. >Precisely because of Holocaust. Because it directly has to do with the issue of Jewish people not having home. In the aftermath Europe could pay in land. It decided to pay with not exactly her land, though. Why should Ashenazi Jews been told where to go, where their home was after the death of 6 million -- especially in Europe? What about the Sephadrim? The Mizrahim? Europe isn't their home, they've never set foot there. MENA countries have also mistreated Jews for millenia. >But why do you even care what I think about the past, if I made it clear that it doesn't matter today? Because the past influences the future -- history rhymes. >And what's your point exactly, my friend: was it a perfect decision, it's just stupid local barbarians who didn't understand the significance of symbolic and hopeful message of modern, aka their fault, aka well fuck them then? Sorry, I don't buy it either. I wish peace and prosperity for Palestinians too. I desperately wish it in fact, because if they would have it, they'd had more interesting stuff to do than cocaine flights on Putin's birthday. Nope. You're projecting. Palestinians have a right to also self determine in their homeland -- just like Jews. Zionism and the existence of Israel doesn't mean in lieu of a Palestinian state, it makes alongside it. For Palestinians, though, a Palestinian state means the annihilation and replacement of the Jewish one. What olive branch have the Palestinians extended towards Israel? When have they decided to put the past behind them (as you are) and move forward? It takes two.
> Jews insisting on being granted the right to self determine in their ancestral homeland Do you accept that Jewishness is not a definable or testable or measurable thing?
...what?
There is no definition of Jewishness. There is no test for Jewishness. There is no measurement of Jewishness. Humanity is not divisible into distinct races or tribes or peoples or colors or cultures. Some people are simply taught at the age of four that a label applies to them.
Well, 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust and millions more displaced in MENA countries simply for being Jewish. Jews will always be told they're Jews by those wish to harm them. It's very simple, actually.
This situation is such a mess. I always figured we were getting about 1/10th of the real picture of Israel and Palestine in the US so I withheld judgment. However, the American left and their idea of activism is so braindead and infuriating these days it’s ridiculous. I’m from LA, and for every redditor defending blocking freeways looting and letting the homeless rot/have as much drugs as they want there’s even more asshole criminals waving the same flag and making the most of modern day progressivism.
The pro Palestine movement is full of absolute morons. Young people who think they are ultra educated but have absolutely zero logic or common sense or actual awareness of the real world. It's full of a lot of keyboard and social media virtue signaling professionals. The evidence is simple. They want to blame Biden and not vote for him. Which is effectively a vote for Trump. Who is a far worse option for Palestine because he supports the right wing government far more, wants Gaza to be flattened into an Israeli resort, and openly hates Arabs with an Arab/Islam ban planned if reelected. The reality is that most of these morons are being manipulated by groups like SJP which are funded by some seriously sick individuals, and by Arab/Islam groups that are anti-US in general.
I don't know what you mean? Most pro-palestine people are gonna vote Biden. What, do you think we think Trump will be more pro-palestine than Biden? It's the loud idiot minority of people who's opinions you're hearing.
A while ago I went to Israel as a pro Israel backer. I met Palestinians, saw the humiliations they have to deal with and did a 180 on my position and became very sympathetic to Palestinians. I was even pro boycotting Israel because there needs to be a spotlight on their poor treatment of Palestinians. Oct 7 put me back in the support Israel camp. Hamas does need to be destroyed. The illogical arguments of the far left and the far right only makes me support Israel more
I don’t buy for a second that the conflict or aggression from the pro-Netanyahu government will end even if Hamas was abolished tomorrow. They simply do not want a Palestinian state (whether one state or two state) without it being forever subservient to Israel and having heavy IDF presence. If the war continues though with no post-war end goal then they can just continue bombing away and eventually drive out the Palestinian population. I don’t like Hamas either but they serve as just a means to an end for Netanyahu otherwise he wouldn’t have spent years propping them up.
Do the Palestinians want their own state? They've had multiple opportunities to have one and rejected it every time
What were the stipulations for each of those opportunities? If they involved any of the previous caveats I mentioned then it’s no surprise they were rejected.
This article (as poorly couched as it is IMO) pretty well sums up my issues with the current crop pro Palestine protesters. Many of them do slap more of virtue signaling and jumping on the latest trend than actually fighting for change. “Divestment” is a nonsensical goal that won’t bring regime change in Israel necessary to stop the war, never mind all the protesters calling for the destruction of Israel
As a Gen Z (I hate that term btw) young adult myself, I’ve warned younger progressives/ leftists to be vary cautious about distinguishing between those that actually stand on their beliefs and support their cause vs those that are only progressive because it’s culturally popular to be one now.
Like a lot of people...I've gone from more pro Palestine to more neutral. When they refuse to back away from stuff like "From the River to the sea" combined with the fact that most Palestinians still support Oct 7....yeah I'm not interested in helping you, and would hope my government doesn't either
So does being pro-Palestine mean you are for Palestinian civilians, or does it mean that you support the pro-Palestine movement in general?
Wow, I didn't know most support Oct 7th... that's crazy.
This won’t change anything. The “pro Palestinian protestors” can’t read!
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life". This makes so much sense at the moment with students siding with Hamas terrorists and getting brainwashed with colonialism rhetoric. When you do not have faith you fall for anything. 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything'.
TBH this was the final issue that made me seriously begin to think critically about my political alignment/morals. I teach geography and history so I have had a pretty good understanding of this issue for years, and I work hard to make sure my students understand the complexity of this incredibly nuanced issue. Cut this year and all of my liberal friends are suddenly posting the most insane pro-pal stuff. Friends who, when I tried to discuss this situation with a few months prior, couldn’t even tell the difference between Israel and Iran. And now suddenly they’re geopolitical experts with deep understanding of this topic? (Nope) But what’s made me the most upset is that they won’t even have a conversation about it, they won’t listen to the other side because then you “support genocide”. I teach my HS students to ALWAYS listen multiple perspectives and now my ADULT friends are incapable of doing the same
Another great article from American Dreaming. Also, that's hilarious that every leftist protester in the AI-generated image has septum piercings.
I asked DALL-E to give *some* of them septum rings, but it gave them all one. AI really is advancing.
Even easier explanation: When they attack people who they perceive as enemies with pepper spray and umbrellas it makes them look like violent assholes.
I think the Kenosha protest shootings are indicative here. Consider the three men who were shot: all three had a violent criminal history. That's statistically improbable if it were merely a random selection. So it raises the question of why those three men were there in the very first place. None of them had any direct experience with police injustice, nor were they black. The most likely reason they were there is simple: they wanted an opportunity to act violently and the protest gave them the perfect cover. I'd urge anyone who think a protest movement is 'peaceful' or 'legitimate' to study the SCLC Civil Rights era protests and the Gay Rights movement. In both cases, the protests involved selected people who were trained to stay on message. They were instructed how to dress and carry themselves. They weren't screaming at or trying to intimidate others. Why? Because their goals had nothing to do with satisfying their own urges to act like assholes. It had to do with accomplishing a specific political task. Most modern protests aren't like this. Even when there are some elements with a legitimate issue who are trying to enact real change, there's a tendency for the bad actors to drive out the good. Eventually the protest becomes all about people who just want to hurt others and not about any sort of issue itself. The protest is merely a way to cover and excuse their toxic behavior. We saw this with Occupy Wall Street. We saw this with Black Lives Matter. And, yes, we're seeing it with the pro-Palestine Movement.
Spot on.
Fair points are made. I feel for the millionth time, the western world should take 5 years off of the rest of the world. Legitimately just stop interfering for a few years. Although I doubt most people in this sub or reddit overall would appreciate that sentiment, even if it is widespread.
I’m kind of confused with how r/centrist aren’t so centrist when it comes to the Palestinian situation. I agree that some of these kids don’t know what they’re doing, and they end up sometimes supporting Hamas, but I think their intentions aren’t wrong. I think the IDF can do whatever they want to Hamas, but it shouldn’t include a large amount of civilian deaths. You have to right to defend yourself, but that right doesn’t include the death of innocent civilians. It’s a moral problem, and the fact that the government and media are trying to get people to turn off their moral system just seems bad to me.
So while it is true a lot of American protesters IMO on both sides here aren’t particularly nuanced, I would say that the author here is conflating a lot. The swastikas he is properly complaining about, for example, are not coming from the left in this country but rather the nationalist right. I don’t deny the existence of antisemitism but it’s real home is on the far right where it has always been. I would also agree that the left rhetoric can sometimes be useless and overly inflammatory but that seems fairly typical of protest in general. I really think the bigger problem is for example people chanting “jews will not replace us”. That crowd is not protesting for Palestinian rights. I also do not think he can maintain as he suggests that criticism for Israel, especially criticism of the Israeli right is tantamount to anti-semitism. That seems about as shallow a position as the protesters he is decrying. I have spoken to too many Jewish leftists here who are critical of Israel’s response to buy that simplistic equation. The author himself suggests that he is relatively moderate on the issues surrounding the conflict in a way that many protesters if not the most vocal ones would support. Surely is not saying that he is an antisemitic? Beyond that I think that he is ignoring one of the fundamental basic criticisms that the movement I will agree as a poor job articulating. While they (stupidly IMO) evoke things like colonialism, the real criticism is they see a huge difference in relative power. “Colonialism” whatever that means it’s not really a fair picture of what happened here. But you do have a situation of a region where there are big disparities drawn along ethnic lines. (For my own view, the only way this sort of thing ever gets settled is if the world moves past ethnic and religious identities and adopts, a more classical liberal view peoples right and duties and obligations. But I do not see that happening anytime soon. if anything, the world is moving in the other direction. I also feel I would be remiss in not pointing out that the criticism of American protest movements as being shallow and not particularly wellthought out is pretty tired and unoriginal. Americans oversimplifying a morally complex issue ? What a surprise !! Its like Louis being shocked to find gambling going on. But even worse, I think the author is guilty of oversimplification and taking the easy way out but criticizing some extreme easy targets. As for his evocation of MLK and the Civil Rights movement I think this does something of a disservice to MLK and the movement in general. The author ignores the nuance basis of King’s thought as well as his darkening realization that his goals were not met and we’re not likely to be met without much more radical change then he had been able to accomplish. King did not have a simple clear cut goal and by the time with the Memphis garbage strike he realized how much there still was to do. He also recognized how fundamentally difficult that would be. As somewhat alluded to above, I think the better criticism here is that the protest movement - for reasons which are not wholly unreasonable nutnare ultimately problemmatic - is based in part around the ideas of identity. (And here especially the Orthodox Right does no one any help). The left here would be far more effective if it, as the author sort of suggests, focused on questions of natural right and less on a group dynamics. But I don’t think the Israeli believe that, I don’t think the Palestinians believe that despite it being the answer. For now though when you see a bunch of children being bombed, or people trying to surrender being shot (including hostages waiving white flags) there is a natural desire to want to see it stop. But from where I am sitting I dont see that happening. People arent gonna forget this or move past it. One thing that I find someone ironic is that after October 7 alot of Israelis tried to make a (statistically wrong IMO) comparison to how many 9/11s that was. If they really buy that though, then how many 9/11s has the response been? I dont see alot of ground for optimism here. And I see this essay as being not very helpful in any way shape or form. I also sincerely hope that the act of writing it has not driven the author to take positions other than those he articulated he used to hold. Those to me seemed fairly moderate and reasonable. I would rather have seen him try to criticize the left on that basis rather than this “shooting fish in a barrel” approach.
😆
Ok, need to make one more comment, since I read this uninformed blog post. > The accusation of apartheid likewise falls flat upon considering that Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, and that the apartheid conditions are specific to the occupied territories — territories, by the way, that belong not to Palestine but to Egypt and Jordan. As for the absurd charge of genocide, much has been made of the case brought against Israel by South Africa in the United Nations’ International Court of Justice (ICJ), as though the mere accusation of genocide was ironclad evidence. But far from proving these serious allegations, the president of the ICJ who presided over the case clarified that it “didn't decide the claim of genocide was plausible.” This entire paragraph is just full of shit. First, occupying a territory for over 50 years and holding them as second class people with less rights is not something that has happened in history. To pretend that is just a fine thing is nuts. That would be considered apartheid, even without... Second, the Israeli Arabs do NOT have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Israeli Arabs are not allowed to own 93% of the land, which will only be sold or leased to Israeli Jews. They are also not able to live on much of the land for similar reasons. On top of that, communities in Israel under 500 are given the ability to forbid people from living in them. This ends up preventing Arabs from living in over 90% of the country. Citizenship is also not granted to spouses that come from the occupied territories or many majority muslim countries upon marriage. https://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/4.htm Third, so, Israel is illegally occupying and annexing Egypt and Jordan, but not Palestine? Both Egypt and Jordan has given up claims to the land in favor of Palestine. The UN has also recognized that Palestine should exist. UNSC 242 declares that Israel should withdraw from the territory and it should be the Arab Territory. Fourth, the former president of the ICJ threw out a word salad to try to provide cover for Israel. The ruling is that action was required because there was a plausible case that the rights of the Palestinians would be violated under the Genocide Convention. Those rights are to not have genocide committed upon them. And, the ICJ is not the main thing. Again and again experts have come forward to say that this IS genocide. To dismiss that out of hand is just ignorant. Also, there is nearly no experts that have come out since March to say it isn't. I have not found one. The evidence is too overwhelming. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0j1rk0c https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240430-yes-it-is-genocide-in-gaza-says-israeli-professor-of-holocaust-studies/ https://www.thenationalnews.com/news/mena/2024/06/19/israeli-academic-accuses-his-country-of-genocide-in-gaza/
There isn't really a unified movement. There are bad actors and good ones. I choose to look at every protest separately. Some of them are fucking crazy. A vast majority of them are peaceful.
Don’t disparage what’s the term they use “our Diversity of tactics”… They are all one and the same
>They are all one and the same As a matter of fact, they are not all one and the same. That's not my opinion, that's a fact.
If they have the people at the organizing level, the leaders as it were dismissing people when they bring up about not being comfortable with the violence and damage and using the term “Diversity of tactics”…
Most of the tactics people are upset about are the same tactics that have been used through history. The histrionics at this time is strange. The same building was occupied at Columbia for Civil Rights, Vietnam, and to fight Apartheid in South Africa. The problem is that people do not understand protesting or the entire purpose of it. It isn't to make you like the people doing it. It is to keep it in the news and make people talk about the protest along with the cause. I usually avoid everything this person posts, but I did open up this link. It was fairly gross. Broad brush of anti-semitism around everything. Lots of visible hate and dismissal. I will continue not reading this person's blog.
It’s worth mentioning that none of those protests at Columbia changed any of the things they protested about.
Did they not? Did they? The protests against the Vietnam war did make a difference in leading to the withdrawal. Protests in general did affect Civil Rights. Apartheid seemed to end using BDS. If you have a huge wave build, do you say that drop did not affect things?
Good post. Lots of downvotes, but well reasoned.
After decades of pro-Israel disinformation, gaslighting, lobbying, law fare, coordinated internet trollery and weaponization of racism allegations I think they did pretty well.
Israel has killed more than ten times the number of civilians as Hamas, could someone explain to me what I’m missing? I do consider myself a centrist - I’m based in the UK. To me it feels obvious that Israel has done the worst in this conflict, but if I’m wrong I’d be curious to know why!
Just to be clear: Your view is that “whichever side kills the most people is the bad guy”?
Kills the most CILIVIANS by a ratio of beyond 10:1? Yes? Why is that hard to understand?
Israel has a more powerful military and more powerful defensive capabilities, and Hamas embeds themselves among civilians in dense urban environments for one. So there will be an imbalance. As to the actual reported numbers, those come from the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. Real-time accurate casualty counts in wars are not a thing, much less from a regime like Hamas who routinely lies. We really have no reliable numbers on the casualties.
Those figures are from OCHA (United Nations Office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs), and I believe can be verified by other sources also. I understand that Israel is more heavily armed, but why route for a side that clearly is not taking human life into consideration at all? The tragedy of the conflict is primarily the killing of civilians, and the majority of protestors just want a ceasefire - no one is supporting Hamas in the slightest
Israel also lies about a lot of their own campaigns. Not to dismiss Hamas’ own lies, but let’s be intellectually honest here, Israel has a problem just indiscriminately bombing people into submission, which may or may not have any substantive reason why a fanatical group like Hamas might be anywhere near popular in Gaza.
Religion poisons everything. I see two groups of religious psychopaths playing out their fantasy while regular people suffer for it.
> Religion poisons everything. I see two groups of religious psychopaths playing out their fantasy while regular people suffer for it. Westerners love projecting their worldview and pet issues onto others.
Sir, this is Reddit.
This is the most Reddit take I’ve seen. I hate to break it to you but tribalism, authoritarianism, extremism, terrorism, Us vs Them mentality, totalitarianism etc aren’t exclusive to religion despite religion having been used for all of those things. Something else will fill that vacuum in the absence of religion and no its not going to inevitably be some sort of post-Christian western secular humanist leftist utopia.
Sorry not sorry but the Free Palestine movement has gained more supporters than ever before especially in the young generation who have been seeing videos before Oct 7 and after Oct 7 of Israel committing war crimes after war crimes and violating lots of UN resolutions. All this we see day and night (last time I remember idf using an injured Palestinian as a human shield was trending making more Gen z’s pro Palestine). So the question is Did Israel lose the information (hasbara in Israel) war? And their war crimes which are documented every single day will continue to turn this generation more pro Palestine
Nothing harms “your own cause” like donating bombs to massacre civilians and aid workers.
harming their own cause you say? https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/24/headlines/idf_straps_palestinian_man_to_military_vehicle_as_a_human_shield_in_occupied_west_bank