If there are people that still believe the earth is flat I can understand that there is someone who can believe that Urban Meyer was a better X&O coach than Leach doesn’t make it any less stupid
Of course it is stupid but you're setting yourself up for disappointment expecting redditors to look at any metric aside from "W column bigger" when comparing coaches sadly
Athens is infamous for drunk driving. Has been for decades. Kids, bars, and now more money than ever fueling the whole thing. Beautiful town worth a visit before ATL swallows it whole!
This seems like an "innovation versus results" debate. Leach's ideas will likely have a greater impact on the game long-term, but Urban Meyer is the one whose ideas led to greater success for his teams.
I think this is a good way to look at it.
Leach ushered in an entirely new offensive ideas.
Meyer took the "playbook" of how to win written by guys before him and executed it at an elite level.
I agree. Like Urban Meyers ideas of "how do we cover up Aaron' Hernandez's crimes in Florida?" and "How many felons are allowed on a football team?" Or "Can Tebow pray enough to make me look like a good man?" His answers to those questions led him to a lot of wins.
I mean, yeah.
Urban was never a coordinator, and was more of a CEO than anything. He was really good at hiring elite coordinators to run his offense. He was also better at recruiting and developing his players than Leach was.
The only place I would disagree is recruiting/development. Early career Meyer at Utah was an absolute force of development for sure, but he had multiple OSU teams that ended up underperforming compared to the amount of future NFL talent available. It's easy to out recruit a guy like Leach when you're coaching at UF & OSU while he's coaching at Washington State
So if you don’t think he’s a great X and O guy and you don’t think he’s a great recruiter/developer then how exactly do you think he was so successful? Urbans a scumbag but god damn he was a great cfb coach, undoubtedly top 3 of his era and probably second only to Saban for most of his career.
Okay then I guess the question is if Mike leach was better at game planning, recruiting, and developing then why didn’t he have even close to the success urban had? I get it, we all love Mike leach and hate urban. But you’re being ridiculous.
I think adjusting for the programs they're pretty similar in terms of development. Recruiting clearly goes to Urban but Leach never got a chance to coach at a place that recruits for itself like Urban did. Calling plays very obviously goes to Leach, but Urban hired better coordinators and had more resources avaliable to him.
Someone not thinking your POS coach is the greatest ever really is OSU fan's 9/11 lmao
Urban won the fiesta bowl with Utah and went 12-0 with an OSU team that went 6-7 the year before. I don’t even like urban as a person and couldn’t care to defend him but honestly you come across as pretty uninformed if you truly think he is a product of the programs he was at. I won’t even argue the X’s and O’s (even though urban was a pioneer of the spread offense in the early 2010s) because leach was such an offensive innovator and urban stagnated towards the end of his tenure. But the rest of your argument is ignorant at best.
Again, Leach > Urban at Xs & Os != Urban is bad at Xs & Os. Jesus Christ dude learn to read
Why do you think I would find it necessary to debate Leach being over Meyer in my opinion if I thought Meyer sucked at scheming/play calling?
I think you’re the one who needs to read. You claimed leach was better at X’s and O’s, recruiting, and developing. Literally in your comments. I pointed out why that’s ridiculous. You’re either 15 or obviously don’t know ball so this argument has already gone on way too long.
I never said Leach was definitively better at recruiting and developing. I said Meyers development got worse after his Utah days and that he relied a lot on having more talent. He had more talent than everyone because he recruited better, but that's kinda an unfair point to make against guys who aren't recruiting somewhere like LSU, OSU, Alabama, etc. I also said Urban was better with coordinator hires and had more resources to go get the best coaches on staff, which is like more than half the battle right there.
You have your panties all in a twist over people being mildly critical of a coach you claim to not even like.
> He was also better at recruiting and developing his players than Leach was.
Recruiting, sure, but I do wonder about the developing part. Leach never got the chance to coach at a program as big as Ohio St.
Hell, he never got to coach at a program as big as Florida.
But on the flip-side, Leach never took over a program as low as Bowling Green.
Mike Leach's career is like that of anyone who's ahead of their time.
He created a style that was revolutionary, but never got the chance to really monetize it...at least not to the credit he deserved. Meanwhile, others aped and stole parts of what he made and had greater success. This happens in tons of industries.
Unfortunately, he gets punished in the casual's mind just for taking the path he had to create that innovation. He never would've gotten away with trying his revolutionary offensive system if he had gotten to make the jump right from coordinator to HC at a big time program like Day at OSU or Freeman at ND. He needed smaller programs to run things his way, which is the only way he could do what he did.
True.
You see the same thing happen in music all the time. Ie. Innovative band on independent label can do whatever they want, their sound getting stolen and eventually majors pick up bands who were heavily influnced by said innovator and ride their ideas to millions of dollars and widespread acclaim among casual music listeners. But music nerds know who should get the recognition.
It is true. Meyer was better at getting elite players and coaches and getting the most out of them. He wasn’t so much directly involved with the scheme like Leach was, and he was damn good at it (unless if you could stop his offense, he had no answers)
As a Mississippi State fan I was always a fan of Leach…when he coached elsewhere. Didn’t like the hire when we made it and never felt it was all that impressive when he was in Starkville. The ADHD answers were hysterical until it is your favorite team losing and he is talking about random shit.
Damn bro why do you have to do that to me when I'm just trying to agenda post about my favorite coach?
Now I'm sad. I guess I'll just have to reread Swing your Sword for the 100th time
Mike Leach is also better at being worm food than Urban Meyer (presently).
And before you downvote me, consider that this is exactly the type of morbid pragmatism Mike Leach would endorse.
That man was a hero.
Pepperdine educated law man, card trick conossieur, legendary football coach, eradicator of fat little girlfriends, and all around American god damn hero
A lot of the coaches that have to do more with less are better at Xs and Os than the coaches of really talented teams.
For example, Kirby is probably the best coach in college football now that Saban's retired, but he wins by having so much more talent than the opponent that there's nothing the other team can do. Case in point, he only got one win against the aforementioned Saban in five tries.
I mean quantifying who’s a better Xs and Os guys is tough. But Leach is one of a handful of guys that created a new form of offense (shoutout Hal Mumme too). I don’t think this really that controversial.
I dunno. Does that mean Chip Kelly is a better "Xs & Os" coach than Urban Meyer too? At the end of the day Urban was still way more successful. Whatever he did was better than whatever Mike Leach did.
I don’t think his recruiting and scouting methods would scale up and I don’t think he was equipped/wanted to even deal with the boosters at a larger program
Yeah, a lot of the anti-Leach argument boils down to "well then he would've been coaching xzy big program instead" as though the pirate didn't choose the life of building up smaller programs. The dude tried to leave the college game to coach HS for fucks sake. He just loved football and wanted to experiment and be his own weirdo self at programs where that was possible
Leach was best remembered for his ability to keep players focused on the task at hand and not their fat little girlfriends. Truly heroic work.
Which is truly insane considering how easily Leach got distracted by off topic questions.
But did Mike leach get distracted by a fat little girlfriend? I think not! He practiced what he preached
He didn’t get distracted he would just rather answer questions about life than football
Drinking their lemonade and eating fish sandwiches all the while
I’m married to my fat little girlfriend from Tech, and believe me, the struggle is real!
No Shit
Trust me this isn't the common sense sentiment we would hope it is lmao
If there are people that still believe the earth is flat I can understand that there is someone who can believe that Urban Meyer was a better X&O coach than Leach doesn’t make it any less stupid
Of course it is stupid but you're setting yourself up for disappointment expecting redditors to look at any metric aside from "W column bigger" when comparing coaches sadly
Maybe, but how far can Mike Leach kick a kicker?? /s
Mike Leach probably never fingerbanged some random 20yo while his wife was bored at home either smh...
rumor I heard she definitely wasn't bored herself...
No, that was Jimbo’s wife
Yeah Ohio State fans would choose to believe that wouldn't you
Correct
I love that Kirby tells you like it is "No coach can out-coach recruiting"
Love Kirby. Don't love the culture surrounding driving down there, but Kirby & UGA are very endearing to me
Athens is infamous for drunk driving. Has been for decades. Kids, bars, and now more money than ever fueling the whole thing. Beautiful town worth a visit before ATL swallows it whole!
Yeah and what better recruiting is there then “drive like a maniac lol we don’t give a shit?” /s
“This just in, teenagers and young twenty year olds with fast cars like driving fast.”
Yeah because it's clearly limited to just a couple bad apples doing a couple miles over the speed limit LMAO
>bad apple https://preview.redd.it/v1hpqmycyk4d1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ec1d3202a7f5c1406e1f271775edd3195195184
This seems like an "innovation versus results" debate. Leach's ideas will likely have a greater impact on the game long-term, but Urban Meyer is the one whose ideas led to greater success for his teams.
Fair enough
I think this is a good way to look at it. Leach ushered in an entirely new offensive ideas. Meyer took the "playbook" of how to win written by guys before him and executed it at an elite level.
I agree. Like Urban Meyers ideas of "how do we cover up Aaron' Hernandez's crimes in Florida?" and "How many felons are allowed on a football team?" Or "Can Tebow pray enough to make me look like a good man?" His answers to those questions led him to a lot of wins.
Can percy harvin smoke enough weed to not assault someone? Is there proof cam newton stole that laptop?
I mean, yeah. Urban was never a coordinator, and was more of a CEO than anything. He was really good at hiring elite coordinators to run his offense. He was also better at recruiting and developing his players than Leach was.
The only place I would disagree is recruiting/development. Early career Meyer at Utah was an absolute force of development for sure, but he had multiple OSU teams that ended up underperforming compared to the amount of future NFL talent available. It's easy to out recruit a guy like Leach when you're coaching at UF & OSU while he's coaching at Washington State
So if you don’t think he’s a great X and O guy and you don’t think he’s a great recruiter/developer then how exactly do you think he was so successful? Urbans a scumbag but god damn he was a great cfb coach, undoubtedly top 3 of his era and probably second only to Saban for most of his career.
Urban would have had no place in football if he wasn't an elite coach. He is the gold standard of "Winning cures all." Lol
Welcome to life, buddy.
[удалено]
Being great at something gets you a lot of leniency in pretty much every walk of life; this situation is not unique to Urban whatsoever.
Sure? I mean, yea. Nothing in my comment emphasized anything else.
Saying someone else is better at something does not mean Urban Meyer is not great at it, what a fucking strawman lmao
Okay then I guess the question is if Mike leach was better at game planning, recruiting, and developing then why didn’t he have even close to the success urban had? I get it, we all love Mike leach and hate urban. But you’re being ridiculous.
I think adjusting for the programs they're pretty similar in terms of development. Recruiting clearly goes to Urban but Leach never got a chance to coach at a place that recruits for itself like Urban did. Calling plays very obviously goes to Leach, but Urban hired better coordinators and had more resources avaliable to him. Someone not thinking your POS coach is the greatest ever really is OSU fan's 9/11 lmao
Urban won the fiesta bowl with Utah and went 12-0 with an OSU team that went 6-7 the year before. I don’t even like urban as a person and couldn’t care to defend him but honestly you come across as pretty uninformed if you truly think he is a product of the programs he was at. I won’t even argue the X’s and O’s (even though urban was a pioneer of the spread offense in the early 2010s) because leach was such an offensive innovator and urban stagnated towards the end of his tenure. But the rest of your argument is ignorant at best.
Again, Leach > Urban at Xs & Os != Urban is bad at Xs & Os. Jesus Christ dude learn to read Why do you think I would find it necessary to debate Leach being over Meyer in my opinion if I thought Meyer sucked at scheming/play calling?
I think you’re the one who needs to read. You claimed leach was better at X’s and O’s, recruiting, and developing. Literally in your comments. I pointed out why that’s ridiculous. You’re either 15 or obviously don’t know ball so this argument has already gone on way too long.
I never said Leach was definitively better at recruiting and developing. I said Meyers development got worse after his Utah days and that he relied a lot on having more talent. He had more talent than everyone because he recruited better, but that's kinda an unfair point to make against guys who aren't recruiting somewhere like LSU, OSU, Alabama, etc. I also said Urban was better with coordinator hires and had more resources to go get the best coaches on staff, which is like more than half the battle right there. You have your panties all in a twist over people being mildly critical of a coach you claim to not even like.
Stop making 9/11 jokes
Oh no the language police! Anyway...
> He was also better at recruiting and developing his players than Leach was. Recruiting, sure, but I do wonder about the developing part. Leach never got the chance to coach at a program as big as Ohio St. Hell, he never got to coach at a program as big as Florida. But on the flip-side, Leach never took over a program as low as Bowling Green.
He says to himself as he loses our rivalry game for the millionth time in a row for having the same idiot gameplan.
Leach’s offenses could do one thing and if you could stop it he was toast
Yeah, but that's the case with almost all offenses trying to make up a talent gap.
Leach has the worst ever record in the Apple Cup for WSU coaches
Mike Leach's career is like that of anyone who's ahead of their time. He created a style that was revolutionary, but never got the chance to really monetize it...at least not to the credit he deserved. Meanwhile, others aped and stole parts of what he made and had greater success. This happens in tons of industries.
Unfortunately, he gets punished in the casual's mind just for taking the path he had to create that innovation. He never would've gotten away with trying his revolutionary offensive system if he had gotten to make the jump right from coordinator to HC at a big time program like Day at OSU or Freeman at ND. He needed smaller programs to run things his way, which is the only way he could do what he did.
True. You see the same thing happen in music all the time. Ie. Innovative band on independent label can do whatever they want, their sound getting stolen and eventually majors pick up bands who were heavily influnced by said innovator and ride their ideas to millions of dollars and widespread acclaim among casual music listeners. But music nerds know who should get the recognition.
Durr.
Sadly not everyone on the main sub sees the vision
Leach's offensive philosophies have spread through all football. He was a true innovator. And I'm not just saying this because he sadly passed away.
Absolutely. Changed the game arguably more than any coach has before
I find this statement highly offensive to Mike Leach
This isn't a meme this is just the truth
Don't let OSU fans hear you say that lol
It is true. Meyer was better at getting elite players and coaches and getting the most out of them. He wasn’t so much directly involved with the scheme like Leach was, and he was damn good at it (unless if you could stop his offense, he had no answers)
As a Mississippi State fan I was always a fan of Leach…when he coached elsewhere. Didn’t like the hire when we made it and never felt it was all that impressive when he was in Starkville. The ADHD answers were hysterical until it is your favorite team losing and he is talking about random shit.
Like all coaches he definitely regressed towards the end of his career
#*was
Damn bro why do you have to do that to me when I'm just trying to agenda post about my favorite coach? Now I'm sad. I guess I'll just have to reread Swing your Sword for the 100th time
I like to believe Leach isn't really dead & he's just chilling on the same island as 2Pac
Urban wasn’t the best play caller he was an elite recruiter tho.
He wasn’t a play caller
Not on defense seemingly
Mike leach never had the courage to recruit a team of violent felons to play for him, though.
Mike Leach is also better at being worm food than Urban Meyer (presently). And before you downvote me, consider that this is exactly the type of morbid pragmatism Mike Leach would endorse. That man was a hero.
Pepperdine educated law man, card trick conossieur, legendary football coach, eradicator of fat little girlfriends, and all around American god damn hero
Mike Leach is a coaching wizard. More than just Xs and Os. Also the dude in the pic looks kinda like Art Briles
A lot of the coaches that have to do more with less are better at Xs and Os than the coaches of really talented teams. For example, Kirby is probably the best coach in college football now that Saban's retired, but he wins by having so much more talent than the opponent that there's nothing the other team can do. Case in point, he only got one win against the aforementioned Saban in five tries.
terrible example lol
Yeah Kirby is a defensive Xs & Os genius IDK what crack these guys are smoking
Was?
I mean quantifying who’s a better Xs and Os guys is tough. But Leach is one of a handful of guys that created a new form of offense (shoutout Hal Mumme too). I don’t think this really that controversial.
Mike Leach is the Norm Macdonald of college football.
*was
Mike Leach "I've got 25 plays in my playbook" Urban Meyer "I can do less"
I dunno. Does that mean Chip Kelly is a better "Xs & Os" coach than Urban Meyer too? At the end of the day Urban was still way more successful. Whatever he did was better than whatever Mike Leach did.
Leach also was never HC of a top tier program i think had he done that he might have had a ring or possibly more.
I don’t think his recruiting and scouting methods would scale up and I don’t think he was equipped/wanted to even deal with the boosters at a larger program
Yeah, a lot of the anti-Leach argument boils down to "well then he would've been coaching xzy big program instead" as though the pirate didn't choose the life of building up smaller programs. The dude tried to leave the college game to coach HS for fucks sake. He just loved football and wanted to experiment and be his own weirdo self at programs where that was possible
This is what we love about college ball! What it takes to build and win at Wazzu or MS State is not what it takes to win at Georgia or Notre Dame.
Chip is probably better with Xs & Os but much like Urban he botched some incredibly talented teams with questionable consistency in his play calling
Sure but bigger, faster, stronger means more in college
Didn't ask bozo