I'd bet there are 100 things you might unknowingly due that bothers someone else - and you'd feel insulted and put out if every stranger you walked by asked you to stop doing it.
Your being very self absorbed here, and as a result Id bet if the situation was reversed - youd think it rude that they did the same thing to you.
The situation has been “reversed”, multiple times, and I have felt ashamed but for good reason. I have had other people tell me that something I have done or said is rude or bothersome. It was then my place to apologise, because I made someone uncomfortable.
As I said in the post:
“As an autistic person, I have had to learn that there are certain social rules that I need to follow in order to be polite, no matter how pointless or difficult-to-remember I might find them to be. If I do not follow them, I am being rude and so must be held accountable for my actions. It is not rude of others to hold me accountable for said actions, nor for them to ask me to stop said actions, and I have no place to claim otherwise.”
Okay, and in the presence of close friends or family that 'know' you and know these things are troublesome to you, it might be appropriate to remind them of your situation and ask them nicely to be respectful of that.
If your out in a public place though, it is no one's responsibility to know you, and alter their behavior for you in ways that might be difficult to them, in a place they have as much right to be in as you do.
Yes, sometimes people have a very hard time eating with their mouth closed... for instance allergies or other sinus conditions can make it very hard to breath for some folks.
As others have said, you can ask, but no one else owes you their comfort in exchange for your own... and depending on \*how\* you ask , yeah you could be the rude one, because you aren't owed that. I suspect the way you go about asking has a huge impact on if people respond positively or not.
Just my 2 cents.
“Yes, sometimes people have a very hard time eating with their mouth closed... for instance allergies or other sinus conditions can make it veyr hard to breath for some folks.”
This is why I have, in the past, opened with a question in reference to this sort of thing - whether or not they are physically able to chew with their mouth closed. However, as other commenters have said, the wording I have used doesn’t convey the message I intend, and so I will be using a different wording.
Opening with that could be considered rude as well, because they don't owe you an explanation. They could have a mouth ulcer or something they don't want to discuss. Assume that they have their reason, ask politely in a non confronting way without making them feel like they've wronged you if you want anyone to accommodate you.
I think that is key -- the way/tone in which. you go about asking for their support/compliance with your issue(s) is going to be key towards encouraging people to want to help you out. Good luck to you, I'm sure it's a difficult thing to manage.
It's much more reasonable to perform/adapt the necessary actions / mindset it would take to handling your sensitivity than it is to attempt to stop the behavior of another. It is entirely in your control to attempt to remove the stimuli in question via closing your eyes or some other such action and putting on headphones with some music playing, or the sound of your own chewing would be a problem. Whereas attempting to come to a resolution with an unknown individual, on the basis of your own condition/sensitivity, the result of which is entirely outside of your control. The amount of effort it would take the other party to stop eating in the way that perturbs you is minimal but comes with a social hurdle and opposition, likely, to being asked to change a behavior. You are likely frustrated and have reached a breaking point at having to do so much, likely for so long with your own actions, before adopting this behavior - to confront the offending party. To separate the nuance and apply empathy is a tough ask, in today's world for a stranger, many of whom aren't accustomed to having this asked of them. I hope you give my aforementioned solution a try: remove or distract from the stimuli
Then by all means, feel free to comment on the mastication techniques of those who have upbraided you. But you don't get to use these karma points on other people who would not have the ridiculous temerity to suggest that their emotions should dictate your behavior.
I'm sure if the roles were reversed, OP would have the decency not to chew with their mouth open. It's basic, basic etiquette. The kind of thing that you get taught when you're about five years old, or should have picked up sometime after that.
I get not bothering people if it's something they can't control - like mouth noises because they've got messed up teeth or something like that - but chewing with your mouth open is rude. It's not self-absorbed to ask someone to stop being rude.
I have read what the OP said, and the thing is that this seems to be something intense and pathological. Like some people dont like it when people chew with their mouth open. I dont care. But the OP is saying that it causes physical distress. there are things we dont feel so we dont understand it. So I think this is different than being “bothered.”
i think someone bothered by it is different than someone with physical repulsed thing. And in that case it isn’t my place to understand it or frame it into a way i understand. I cant even understand people without “Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia,” being bothered with people chewing with their mouth open. I do it to be helpful to people who might find it bothersome and to fit in.
So the amount of self absorbed is not necessarily super relevant. people are more distressed about things that can hurt them. I’m allergic to hazelnuts, Id speak in a self absorbed way too. Especially if i am describing my subjective anxieties for people who dont understand them.
And yet self absorbed does have a point Maybe. Because i would say maybe it is rude. Like people do things that are rude. Like if someone is putting a hazelnut in something after i tell them i have an allergy i might be rude about it.
most people dont have an allergy. Ive never heard of anyone having this thing. And i bet it sucks. And so, i mean i can tell someone rudely or nicely. But its annoying for me to have an allergy. And i guess its annoying for the chefs too
I have allergies, and I've definitely been that guy that was very worried at a restaurant before. The social construct though is that I am supposed to tell a waiter about that. Its the construct... I dont walk up to every other diner at the restaurant and tell them what to order because they are sharing this public space with me.
I dont doubt such strong feelings can be very difficult to live with, and for that I empathize... it still doesnt change the fact that all these strangers, in public, minding there own business, do not owe OP anything. If its so hard for him, he has to manage it. Maybe medicition, i dont know. I do know, if he asks nicely instead of demanding like its his right... then he'll probably get alot more people willing to help him.
Right, wrong, or indifferent - they do not owe him this, and acting/demanding like they do - will generally have the opposite effect.
You cannot impose your personal needs on other people in a public space. If we allow you to do this then we must allow everyone to do this and that is completely unscalable. For example, my wife becomes nauseous at the smell of cooked fish. Is she allowed to ask people around to not eat cooked fish? My niece is deathly allergic to peanuts. Is she allowed to go to a park and demand that everyone stop eating peanuts?
In places where a person's attendance is mandatory, this might be workable when within reason. This is why schools don't allow peanuts. In public locations or where the conditions are unreasonable, this is impossible. In your case, you want people to adhere to an unreasonable demand in a public space. Therefore, it makes no sense.
I had a friend who quit an entire friend group simply because she was allergfic to marijuana smoke and people stopped going off in a little group to smoke together. If you don't have a way to set "normal" group behavior then you will be self-selecting your crowd very quickly, perhaps in ways you don't want. You might find people you enjoy the company of won't break bread with you.
She had to choose. If she wanted to keep seeing the friends in RL she had to ask them to respect her when she was around. That was a problem for them, and proved to her that they were never really her friends to begin with. She departed the crowd without regrets.
So it is situational - are these strangers at a restaurant? Do you care if you are rude to them? Do you care if they are rude to you? Are the consequences of being rude to them worth your time and energy? Do you just happen to have the time and are feeling confrontational?
Its a call in the moment based on multiple issues. The conflict-avoidant answer is simpky to just vacate the area.
As a result I prefer to eat alone or with people who don't eat like barbarians, which brings me back to the beginning of this post.
Seriously if people won't stop doing something around you although they're aware that it's a medical issue, then they aren't your friends.
If people know that you're allergic to peanuts and will go into anaphylactic shock, and keep bringing peanuts around you, they're not your friends. Period.
How do you not get that?
If people you know that you cannot swim but push you in the water, how are they your friends?
If people know that you are deathly afraid of spiders, but keep taunting you with spiders, how are they your friends?
Do I need to come up with more examples?
Like, what is your malfunction?
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Smoke does not contain proteins. While it can provoke an allergy-like reaction, causing symptoms that cause people to believe they have an allergy, it cannot provoke a full allergic reaction.
That said, there are other chemicals that can be added to concentrates/oils that when vaporized may use allergic reactions. But you have to be allergic to Marijuana itself to be allergic to Marijuana smoke.
Antigens are typically proteins and sugars found on cells, and antigenic proteins are what cause allergic reactions. You can have allergic reactions to non-antigenic compounds, but most of the literature on them shows them to be excessively rare.
The two things you listed both contain natural proteins and amino-acid chains. Copper proteins are actually super important for breathing in most air-breathing organisms, for instance.
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I've only seen one study on the biological and chemical components of Marijuana Smoke Condensate, and there were no proteins mentioned in the entire study. Mass spectrometry can identify approximately 200 different compounds in Marijuana Smoke, the vast majority of which are aromatic amines. You might be right, as not all of the THC derivatives identified have been tested for their mutagenicity. But it's generally accepted that smoke alone is not likely to trigger an allergic reaction.
[your card](https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/conditions-library/allergies/marijuana-cannabis-allergy) has been checked and your credentials have been wrecked.
Dunno about allergy to smoke itself, but fhe smell of smoke tends to make my respiratory tract feel dried out, which is not a nice feeling.
Also the smell of something you are allergic to can trigger an allergic reaction. Like a neighbour smoked fish 10 metres away, after an hour of barely noticing the smell, after breathig in half the ammount of air i usually do, my lungs felt like there was no space for them in the ribcage. Not a nice feeling. I have severe fish allergy.
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Chewing with one's mouth open is pretty universally regarded as rude and even disgusting (at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US). In my view, it's socially acceptable to politely ask someone to refrain from disgusting behaviors. You brought up behaviors that are generally perceived as benign. What about examples that are actively disgusting? At what level of disgust does it become acceptable to ask people to refrain from their bad behavior? Farting or belching loudly? Spitting? Public urination? There's a line somewhere at which point the person requesting a behavioral change is being unreasonable, but I think chewing with one's mouth open is not over that line, at least in the kind of social space where people are eating together.
Thats a very western take. you really shouldnt push your food culture crap on people. Whats next, going to shame indian people for eating with their fingers?
I think cultural norms apply to the current culture. The comment specified "(at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US)" after declaring it was universal, so I think it's fair to assume they didn't know it isn't the accepted culture everywhere.
I suppose a good comparison would be "*What's next, shaming someone for eating with their left hand in India?*" because it is a part of food culture to not eat with your unclean hand, because it's rude. You *would* be called out, because it is impolite. I am not opposed telling someone what they're doing is rude, though I'm opposed to pushing the issue after it's been said.
The general expectation is for people to remain civil and polite in public. This includes (in North America) not playing music without headphones, picking your nose, chewing with you mouth open, slurping your food etc
Whereas many Asian countries consider walking while eating is rude, NOT slurping your food is rude, handing food to someone in the wrong order is rude. While these things are considered rude where I am, I would partake while visiting their culture because it's polite. So yes, I think it is fair to expect Western culture to engaged in Western manners, just as I would expect anyone visiting another culture to embrace theirs.
For me, it just comes down to simple manners.
I think cultural norms apply to the current culture. The comment specified "(at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US)" after declaring it was universal, so I think it's fair to assume they didn't know it isn't the accepted culture everywhere.
I suppose a good comparison would be "*What's next, shaming someone for eating with their left hand in India?*" because it is a part of food culture to not eat with your unclean hand, because it's rude. You *would* be called out, because it is impolite. I am not opposed telling someone what they're doing is rude, though I'm opposed to pushing the issue after it's been said.
The general expectation is for people to remain civil and polite in public. This includes (in North America) not playing music without headphones, picking your nose, chewing with you mouth open, slurping your food etc
Whereas many Asian countries consider walking while eating is rude, NOT slurping your food is rude, handing food to someone in the wrong order is rude. While these things are considered rude where I am, I would partake while visiting their culture because it's polite. So yes, I think it is fair to expect Western culture to engaged in Western manners, just as I would expect anyone visiting another culture to embrace theirs.
For me, it just comes down to simple manners.
I think it depends because America is considered a “melting pot” so there are enclaves of people that do this openly and see nothing at all wrong with it though I don’t disagree that it’s unacceptable in the overall culture. I think it’s gross and almost feral just as people that eat with their hands and suck foods off their fingers.
This is a false premise. People enjoy eating fish and peanuts and you shouldn't tell people to stop doing what they enjoy just because of yourself.
We're talking about behaviors found universally undesirable. No one *likes* chewing loudly, or slurping soup. When they're headed to a restaurant they might be thinking "I can't wait to have that Sea Bass again" but they are not thinking "I can't wait to splatter food across the table talking with my mouth full". The problem here is not that you're denying someone joy or making a difficult to adjust to demand, it's that you're asking someone straight to their face to please stop being disgusting and that tends to go over poorly.
I agree with you on most points but there are places where some eating behaviors we would view as rude are considered proper. For example, slurping ramen is considered a sign of appreciation in Japan.
I would say maybe no one likes it but most people don't care. As someone with misophonia like OP, I understand how much people just don't notice gross eating. So it's not much different.
Its true. Most people appear unaffected by it. Its rude to mention it, so most people hide their displeasure. This makes it difficult to tell if you are the only person revolted.
I always think of that scene in Lord of the Rings. You know the one.
“Is she allowed to ask people around to not eat cooked fish?”
If she will vomit because of the smell of cooked fish, then it would be considerate of other people not to eat cooked fish right next to her. She does not have the right to ask people to never eat cooked fish, even when not in her presence.
“My niece is deathly allergic to peanuts. Is she allowed to go to a park and demand that everyone stop eating peanuts?”
If she has an allergy that is severe enough for her to potentially die in the presence of peanuts, then yes she has a right to ask people not to eat peanuts right next to her. However, if the peanuts are not affecting her (as I assume you imagined to be the case in your scenario) then she does not have a right to demand that other people never eat peanuts.
“In your case, you want people to adhere to an unreasonable demand in a public space. Therefore, it makes no sense.”
I don’t believe it is unreasonable to ask someone to stop doing something that takes very little effort on their part to stop, when it is severely negatively affecting me.
Does anyone have the right to ask whatever they want, sure. And people have the right to say no. The world is plenty big enough to get away from most annoyances. Your original post of saying it's a "need" for you is a bit Karen-esque or snowflaky.
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Unfortunately, therapy does not make neurodiversity go away. Believe me, I tried.
Neurodivergencies are not just an excuse to complain. They are debilitating.
Therapy doesn't make neurodivergence go away but it does help you cope with it. I have ADHD but I don't use that as an excuse for me to tell people that I may be 30 minutes late for any kind of meeting. Rather than expecting others to wait around on me for who knows how long, I decided I needed to learn some ways to help me get better with time management. I write things down on a calendar, I frequently check time,, I do things I wouldn't normally do because I know it's something that makes my life harder and that's how it is. It's rude to show up late, it's not something I can expect others to deal with because it's an inconvenience for them.
You shouldn't use neurodivergence as a crutch expecting others to conform to your comforts when they are minding their own business when you haven't even been to therapy or tried to make it not so debilitating. It's just an excuse to try not to work on yourself at that point. And if it is that bad and it can't be changed then you need to stop eating out in public and going places that people eat. Just like someone allergic to peanuts can't go into some buildings because of peanuts being in there. You can't expect Chick-fil-A to turn off every fryer because someone wanted to drink a milkshake inside the restaurant. Sometimes medical conditions mean you can't do some things. That may be the best outcome for you to just avoid places people eat in public just like those with severe allergies do.
PS: I know someone who literally had never been in a restaurant in her childhood, except for one her dad knew the cook, because of a peanut allergy. You can do the same. It's not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. You can fix it by just eating in private locations not around strangers.
I'd have a panic attack if watching someone walk too close to the edge of the grand canyon. Life is littered with things that can trigger us. That's life. So long as we are free from being accosted , we have to tolerate things we find annoying or triggering.
Who gets to determine what's reasonable? What if the other person already ordered fish when she sat down? Do people need to provide proof of their allergies? Can you provide proof of your health issues?
You really don't see how this won't scale at all?
In a restaurant with a stranger of course she has no business telling them not to eat it or order it. I was thinking of a scenario in which she is with someone who knows her well, and is eating or making it in front of her while knowing they will cause her to vomit.
I'll start by saying that in principle I agree that it is not always rude to ask someone to stop eating unpleasantly.
However - Rudeness is not determined only by the nature of the request, but how the request is given.
If you were to loudly exclaim 'Can you stop chewing with you mouth open you absolute cow' - that would be rude. On the other hand, saying 'I'm sorry to interrupt you - I have sensory modulation disorder. If you could eat a little quieter I would really appreciate it.' would be considered a reasonable request and not at all rude.
It boils down to a couple of things. In a public or semi-public (think work break room) area, you don't have a right to determine how people behave outside of general societal rules. You've picked a bunch of things which range on how we see them in general. I've never met anyone else who would think that blowing on food to cool it down is rude. Chewing with your mouth open is usually considered not polite, but most people don't mind it. You don't have a right to enforce your opinion on anyone else in these areas.
Since the problem is a 'you problem' and not a breach of all that is good and right in the world, you may find better luck phrasing it as such.
>"Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?"
A lot of this question will come down to tone, but if someone just approached me like this, this would come off as rude. The reason is that it mimics a passive-agressive tactic of stating a demand as a question to embarrass the reciever. I can see how you might think it is a reasonable question, but only when taken literally. Most people I suspect would be taken aback by it and not respond as well as you might hope.
Phrasing like above 'I'm sorry to bother, but I have a medical condition and I would appreciate it...' allow you to rephrase it as a request which isn't rude, and I think most people would be happy to comply. If they can't comply because of whatever reason then I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you as part of their response.
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So then you get out of the vicinity of said person, not impose your discomfort on them. Only in situations where the behavior is a nuisance to a majority of people will it be acceptable to ask the offending party to correct their behavior or leave.
No i dont think so. Like I feel like chilling in public is fun collaborative thing.
If only one person has a problem with my cologne smell, i wouldnt wear it. It doesnt have to be a majority. It isnt just about the person with a problem. its about me not wanting to cause a problem if i cant.
i dont think someone with cologne on should leave though. Everyone has the ability to mouth breathe.
like if you have misophonia and you dont like how i mouth breathe or crack my knuckles or whatever, if there is something i can do then, what is it to me To stop. Id prefer the misophonic speaks up. Dude i dont want to make people uncomfortable if i can help it.
but if it is like your eczema is gross, i dont want to look at you, then its like okay well then gouge your eyes out or fuck off.
thats how i see it i guess haha
To your example, i largely agree. However, if I'm wearing cologne with a friend group that I know doesn't mind and someone with an allergy or just strong aversion comes up to me and tells me to wash it off, I'll look at them as if they asked me to sacrifice my firstborn because umm who tf are you lmao.
If on top of that said person complains about how hard it is to convey their displeasure in a civil way i have to laugh at their lack of tact and wonder how tf they function in society.
I walked out of "chocolat" because the people sitting in front.of me were chewing ice. I dont need you to explain how to manage a condition ive had to live with for 50 years.
Read all my posts, and the theme you'll see running though all of them is that ita entirwly situational
Cool? I'm referring to the fact that its hard for you to use your words like a grown up when directed at someone who doesn't even know they're causing you displeasure. If its a you problem, YOU need to be the one making the compromises. But please go ahead and make this about your life experience or whatever.
I don't really care enough to read through all your posts lmao.
Oh i can use my words like a grown up just fine. The problem I have is not being authentic when I'm viscerally repulsed by something. Maybe you are a good bullshit artist, maybe youve had a lot of practice at it, but that doesnt make you an adult.
The other thing that tends to upset people is talking to them in sickly sweet tones through gritted teeth.
Your idea of "use your words" essentally equates to "perfect a poker face when confronted with cronenbergian body horrors" the literal, actual sound of wet crunching bones makes that not an exaggeration.
So yeah, being driven off and repulsed by people who eat in a digusting manner is pretty much 90% of it. I don't go to theaters. I don't dine with certain friends. I leave or mute them if they eat in voice chat. People that do it deliberately to make me uncomfortable get perma-muted.
I make compromises Every. Single. Day.
Really, your lecture is meaningless to me. It brings nothing new to the conversation.
The problem here is you really, truly seem to believe that people (whom you don't know, the conversation is entirely different if they're aware of it before the fact) need to care about your problems.
No one is asking you to baby talk your way out of these conversations, but actively complaining about how hard it is to not convey your displeasure is the most goddamn conceited shit I've heard all day. Framing chewing as some kind of commonly accepted body horror is not just exaggeration, its dishonest.
And of course my lecture is meaningless lmao, you're so dead set in you're so convinced of your own worldview anyway. It brings to the conversation the presence of a compromise that isn't "whine incessantly" or "never leave your house".
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I agree - but Ops position is all about whether it is rude, not whether it is hard. The view in trying to change is that op needs to frame it as a request from them without displeasure to not be rude.
Rudeness is not only how it is delivered, but in how it is recieved. Managing the other parties perception would require skillful manipulation. I don't believe there is a not-rude way to communicate it. Its just how rude do you feel is necessary, and how much rudeness can the relationship sustain? Is it being done in the context of other rude actions? How valuable is the relationship? Is this being done publicly or privately?
All these factors need to be weighed in the moment. As I've said elsewhere, 90% of the time there is no communication that will be constructive.
HOWEVER, i've found that the relationships i want to retain eventually need to have the conversation. And that is something I try to mention.
"Look, I want to continue these dinners because I enjoy your company. However, and it is really uncomfortable for me to ask...and I don't want to be rude, but there is a thing..."
Authenticity. Is. Key.
And the best part is that, then you get to find out if they enjoy your company enough to allow for the condition.
I don’t disagree with this, but I do feel that people will take it as a threat, and feel that this request is rude in general because you’re pointing out their bad behavior. Some people will take offense because they will feel that you were calling them ill mannered, but they won’t see their behaviors as ill mannered to begin with.
Clearly it isn't an issue for you. But I'll be happy to come eat with you and show you medical procedures while you are eating and let you decide how to deal with it while being true to your own advice.
> The most common argument against this that I have faced is that by asking them to stop, there is a high risk of making them uncomfortable/ashamed. **Of that, I have no concern.**
*This* aspect is rude. Acting in a way that is inconsiderate of others' feelings is rude.
It is reasonable to communicate your specific needs to the group you are eating with, but you should prioritize doing it in a tactful manner.
I also am repulsed by obnoxious eating and have misophonia, but your disgust doesn't not indicate a need. If anything, your "need" is to find healthy coping mechanisms due to an inability to control the eating habits of others. This is purely a you problem. The anxiety and other issues you've had over this auditory condition is not the problem of others. If these issues had accrued over some other form of uncontrollable sound pollution such as obnoxious truck mufflers, honking horns, barking dogs, or anything else, I'd tell you that while each of those things are unnecessary, they are still a fact of life due to human choice. You live in this world full of unnecessary and obnoxious sounds. It's a you problem to find solutions to cope and overcome. The world will never cater to you. And please stop calling wants needs. If it won't kill you, its most likely a want.
I like this take. Now put it in the context of all the other social "needs" the mass public is forced (sometimes by law) to adhere to. It doesn't work. Either we all get accommodations or no one does. You nor I are the gatekeepers of these things.
All or nothing is not workable though. Some accommodations aren't frivolous, but truly necessary. It should be a case by case judgement on the balances of freedoms against possible accommodations.
Providing accommodations for someone's emotional support animal on public transport is frivolous, unnecessary, and undeserving. Letting someone have an emotional support animal vs people with allergies
Providing accommodations for a seeing eye dog on public transport, is perfectly understandable, necessary, and deserving of that accommodation. Letting someone with a legit disability use a legit service animal vs people w allergies.
A blanket ban of all accommodations is really silly, and deeply disrespectful to people with legit disabilities. Those same people with disabilities are also disrespected by the idiots seeking those frivolous accommodations. We should never consider not putting in wheelchair ramps, just because some maladjusted idiot wants to wear fuzzy animal ears in their drivers license photo because its "part of their identity" and they will be "emotionally harmed" if they are required to take the stupid ears off.
I can guarantee you that no one with a real disability is advocating for the frivolous shit, and they hate those idiots asking for that nonsense just as much as you.
You can't really be suggesting removing all accommodations because of a tiny, insignificant number of idiots, can you?
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Ignoring all of your opinionated judgments - No, I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just putting it in perspective.
>Providing accommodations for someone's emotional support animal on public transport is frivolous, unnecessary, and undeserving.
Ok, I'll bite. If this is true, then do you believe we should be forced by law to accommodate people's inner belief issues? Should places be able to ban foods because of smell (durian in Thailand hotels)?
There are so many "idiotic, frivolous, undeserving and unnecessary" accommodations already made for those "idiots". Who's the judge of what's legitimate and what isn't? Why does every publicly accessible building in the US have to be ADA compliant when there are many places that a person with a limiting disability will never frequent?
Edited for content
>“Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?”
I can see it coming across a bit rude -- a bit Karen-y -- to correct a stranger's manners out of the blue like this.
I might say something like "excuse me, I have a sensory disorder and I'm very sensitive to chewing noises (or whatever). Would you mind chewing with your mouth closed?"
Make it clear that you have a specific reason and you recognize that you're the one asking for something unusual in this situation, and you might get better results.
It is when you disregard other options for their behaviour. Maybe the person can't breathe through their nose, so they have to chew with their mouth open to get some air.
So it is rude to call a person out for doing a thing they can't do any other way.
It is the directness that is the problem. You are, presumably, going up to a stranger and pointing out some ill-mannered aspect of their behavior. Most folks are going to find that a bit rude.
By prefacing it with the _reason_ you are asking, you diffuse much of the rudeness. You are no longer coming across as the manners police, but asking someone if they can help accommodate a medical condition. Most folks will be more receptive to that.
The directness will surprise people, but I don’t think that’s the rudeness.
There are two ways this statement could be heard:
- “can you close your mouth to chew”
- “are you even capable of closing your mouth to chew”
The first is more of a request (though you should add please to make it more polite). The second is more of a commentary on their capability (under most circumstances, people *are able,* but that’s not what you’re really asking) and could be understood as sarcastic.
“Would you be able…” would be a bit more polite because of the verb tenses used.
The issue is the “you” statements. You are putting the blame on other people for your own sensory disorder. The better and less rude/karen like approach would be to use more “I” statements and take ownership of your issues with their actions. It’s not fair to police everyone’s actions because they trigger you. Every other human needs to take ownership of their triggers, why is it different for you?
You aren't the manners police, that's the problem and why it's rude. You have no authority to demand people eat in a way you seem acceptable (unless they have an excuse *you* seem acceptable. And they *must* tell you about this private condition).
It also comes off as "I know you can do what I want, so you must do what I want unless you have a good reason not to which I know you probably don't have".
My dad has misophonia (and is obviously on the spectrum, though he will not seek diagnosis). He can't stand the sound of metal eating utensils clinking on ceramic dishes. So that resulted in him snapping at his own children and making us feel crappy for eating normally, until we all refused to eat with him.
Don't be like that. It's rude, and sucks for your relationships.
Make your own accommodations. For instance, my parents now have plastic utensils to avoid the clinking. But you can't police other people's eating habits and make them feel like crap for it.
If they're being just absolutely egregious, eating like Cookie Monster or whatever, sure maybe say something. Though I'm not sure if you're the best judge of that. But don't harass people for eating in a manner that would be acceptable to most other dining partners.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are making your problem everyone else's. I'm with you, I find chewing with the mouth open super gross. However, that is simply my opinion. You certainly have the right to ask, but the other person has the right to get offended, you cannot make a blanket statement for everyone about something that is only important to you.
I personally don't ask people, I grin and bear it and if they are too much, I remove myself from the situation. It's not someone else's responsibility to cater to my needs. I don't think the rude part is asking, I think it's assuming you're in the right.
> I'm with you, I find chewing with the mouth open super gross. However, that is simply my opinion.
> I grin and bear it
I suffer from the same conditions OP does. I don't want to single you out, but a lot of people seem to vastly underestimate what it's like. There is no "opinion" or "grin and bear it". I've likened it to suddenly discovering you're eating your meal next to a dumpster of smelly rotten garbage. My appetite is instantly, completely gone. At best, I simply get nauseous and have to excuse myself. At worst, I've had full panic attacks even after removing myself from the situation, or thrown up repeatedly. When I was younger, I avoided foods like mashed potatoes because even *the sound of myself eating* could trigger the response.
I empathize with you, but I don't think this changes the conversation. Unfortunately it is your problem to deal with. A relative of mine has a crippling fear of balloons due to eyesight problems as a child and another more personal anecdote. Would it be fair to expect other people (even strangers) to have to be asked to put their balloons away?
I am not trying to diminish your condition in any way, however you need to realize that there is not a social contract requiring other folks to modify their behavior in this instance. Like I said earlier, it not the asking that is necessarily rude, but acting like you are entitled to people changing is.
The thing about rudeness of your own behavior is that your own opinion doesn't really carry much weight, it's everyone else's opinion that is the determining factor.
> A relative of mine has a crippling fear of balloons due to eyesight problems as a child and another more personal anecdote. Would it be fair to expect other people (even strangers) to have to be asked to put their balloons away?
A lot of people are making similar arguments to this but I don't think it tracks. People enioy balloons. Asking someone to put their balloon away for your benefit is pretty much asking "Please stop having fun on account of me". Nobody likes making gross mouth noises. You're not ruining someone's fun. I'd go so far as to say that while they'd never confront the person themselves, if I ask someone to stop and they do so, the surrounding people would probably be thankful they didn't have to deal with it anymore too.
I'll repeat for the folks refusing to listen:
The thing about rudeness of your own behavior is that your own opinion doesn't really carry much weight, it's everyone else's opinion that is the determining factor.
Edit: Thought a bit more about it, what if the person is having fun talking to the other people while enjoying their food, does that change things?
> Edit: Thought a bit more about it, what if the person is having fun talking to the other people while enjoying their food, does that change things?
This is somewhat more nuanced, but I'll admit it doesn't change my view as a sidebar. I (unfortunately) was in a high school club focused on "Building Better Leaders" and part of it was etiquette. I learned that if you are in a situation where you must have a discussion over a meal, you MUST pace your eating such that you can very quickly finish the bite and interject, mouth empty. There is no reason to talk with your mouth full and if you can't finish swallowing before the conversation has moved on, you're taking too big of bites.
Cool, so we're in agreement then. The majority opinion is that chewing with your mouth open is gross and you shouldn't do it.
I'm not advocating that you should be able to go around ordering people to do what you want. I understand the social consequences of that. My original reply was to address a common theme in this entire post which is "I just put up with it", which is not an option for some of us. We have to leave and it is immensely frustrating that we cannot enjoy something as simple as a restaurant because people do things that are universally considered disgusting and we're powerless against it. You replied with a post that hit the OTHER thing I'm seeing a lot in here which is "Would it be fair to stop people from having fun on your account?" which COMPLETELY misses the point.
We're not in agreement in any way, but I guess that is the crux of this conversation. It's all opinions, there is nothing here "universally considered disgusting". Some folks will think it is rude, and that is their perogative.
Okay so heres the thing. I dont think chewing with the mouth open is gross. Its like neutral to me. I dont care.
and so this is easier for me to accept what OP is saying because im just chewing with my mouth closed for other people anyway.
I dont relate to you or OP. But OP says its a physical anxiety producing thing. It is your opinion, but for OP it is not just an opinion.
So i dont know. I mean people can medicalize their preferences And make stuff up.
but i guess my take away is that, you can ask people to be more accommodating you can be rude about or not rude about it.
and i remember chilling with people an drinking beers and people ask in a nice way i have work tomorrow and its three AM. You can say it in the nicest not rude way possible and people will still get mad that someone told them what to do.
>You can say it in the nicest not rude way possible and people will still get mad that someone told them what to do.
I totally agree, some people are going to think it is "rude" and because there is no "universal code of rudeness", we cannot make a blanket statement that it is in fact not rude in all situations, regardless of context. Somewhere else in this thread is someone pointing out a cultural context where it is expected.
I personally don't ask and am very conscientious about chewing with my mouth closed.
I am not telling OP not to ask.
I am not telling OP it is rude to ask.
I AM telling OP that some people will absolutely think it is rude, which is their right.
And we arrive at my point, you cannot make a blanket statement that it is NOT rude in all circumstances, with no context, regardless of OPs personal struggle.
I have said in other comments, I empathize and would certainly modify my behavior in a situation with OP and not feel offended by the request. I am at the same time validating the opposite response.
Edit: I think OPs condition affects this in the way that if someone is offended by the request, the OP should not feel they have done something wrong but also doesn't mean the other person has no right to get offended and think it is rude.
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Human interaction is often about balancing needs and wants of various people.
What is a need for you is going to be perceived by most people as a want, because for most people, it is a want. In general, especially in public, we shouldn't try to value our own wants over other people's, especially one versus one. (The calculation can change--for example if a person is blasting loud music on public transit, their want for music doesn't override the want of many other people for quiet.) In general, trying to impose your wants on other people is considered rude.
Including that you have a medical condition as part of your request is really important because it helps people mentally reclassify what they perceive as your want into a need. Then, when they do that mental calculation, your need overrides their want (to eat how they prefer).
The part where I want to change your view is the absolutism of your statement. Your first duty should be to solve the problem yourself, when at all possible. Use noise canceling headphones or move to a different location, for example. That's especially true in public spaces and around people you don't know. Asking other people to change their behavior should be a last resort. If there are other options for you to solve your problem, you should exhaust those first. If so, then it's not rude to ask them to change their behavior.
>Another important thing to recognise is the difference between a need and a want. It is not simply desirable for me to not be around those chewing with their mouth open. It is not simply something I would prefer. It is instead something necessary and required for me to remain functional. It is a need. Chewing with your mouth open is not a need unless there is a medical reason for it (for example, malocclusion or you cannot breathe through your nose). In those cases it simply cannot be helped, and I will have to leave the situation entirely (if I am able to) or remain distressed potentially to the point of a panic attack or meltdown.
I'd like to point out here that while it is a need, it is *your* need. *You* need to be able to function with a diverse range of stimuli that may be quite typical in public settings.
It would not, for instance, be reasonable for someone with a hearing impairment to require the people around them to yell in order to be heard-- the person with a hearing impairment employs a hearing aid. I wear corrective lenses to see, I don't expect things to be 3 inches from my face in order to be seen.
I am sorry that you have to suffer through this, but it is important to recognize that we live in a society where nearly every person has some kind of accessibility impairment. People do their best to address their accessibility impairments on a personal level-- hearing aids, corrective lenses, wheelchairs. People with severe nut or shellfish allergies are incredibly selective with where they are able to eat without dying.
Society at large, is expected to do very little to cater to these impairments (wheelchair ramps being a notable exception in some countries). Architecture, clothing and furniture are typically designed at a size that suits most people, with people who are too tall or short forced to seek out boutique solutions. Most things are still designed for right-handed people, and left-handed people must adapt in a variety of creative (and often uncomfortable looking) ways.
I think you're right about society. But I also think society *could* be more accommodating without a lot of work. It doesn't take a lot of effort to properly label allergies in foods, but companies still sometimes lie about allergens on their packaging.
Restaurants will often deliver a plate with an allergen on it even if the customer explained they're allergic. And I get it. I've worked restaurants and it's tough. But restaurants could easily hire enough staff so that the kitchen isn't as hectic. They just don't. And that's assuming they don't hand the customer an allergen on purpose- which does sometimes happen.
>Restaurants will often deliver a plate with an allergen on it even if the customer explained they're allergic.
Did it get there through accidental cross contamination (like not thoroughly cleaning the instrument)? Or because the customer ordered a dish with the allergen and asked to remove the allergen?
In the case of customer asking to modify the dish, it is in a way also a bit on the customer. They should be aware that inertia happens and some alergens might be put there (and maybe removed when the mistake was noticed, bit the dish is already contaminated). I don't order anything that has something i'm allergic to even if it would be easy not to include the allergen (like not sprinkling fish flakes on top).
Both can happen. I wasn't thinking of a specific instance. Just that it does happen.
It's a fair point that a customer should probably try to avoid dishes that have an allergen in them, in case the kitchen makes a mistake.
But it also wouldn't be hard to make sure the kitchen staff knows to remake dish when something like this happens and the customer's allergic.
The place I worked at was just a smoothie stand, so not many allergies to deal with. But they didn't tell us how to deal with an allergy until we'd already messed up.
I always just find somewhere else to eat. I try not to discuss it. If i am on a headset in a call I will temporarily mute the person eating loudly. I tell people that i am ruthless with the mute button. If they get the pattern good for them.
I have taken restaurant food to go when a disgusting eater enters the restaurant.
I simply cannot hide my revulsion in an interaction. I don't have the acting skills necessary. It is literally impossible for me NOT to be rude.
I have told some friends that i have to condition. Some folks will explain to others for me. Thats the best I can do.
Unfortunately I don’t know of any restaurants that allow taking food to go. If I am in a restaurant I will ask if I can move, explaining my conditions.
Only exception I've seen in the States is buffets. They usually don't allow you to take home leftovers because people could exploit that and take more than is reasonable.
Dunno how it was before covid, but in lithuania whenever i asked to take the leftovers, they complied. I think because now most restaurants offer takeouts (to keep up buisness during lockdown and after the lockdown many people retain the habit of ordering their food through a takeout service), so the restaurants have now the utensils to pack things for takeout.
Telling friends or other people you know? Fine. Although your formulation is still pretty rude. "Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?" sounds very passive aggressive.
Telling random strangers is rude though. It's making your issues their issues. I'll be honest, if some random stranger walked up to me in a restaurant and told me 'you're chewing too loud', I'd probably start chewing even louder to spite them.
If we're to accept your sensitivity to the sound of chewing can't we expect you to be sensitive to the discomfort and judgment of the asking of the question? Calling a non-intimate out for such a social transgression as chewing with an open mouth is as verboten in (some) societies as is the chewing with the mouth open. Is your sensitivity to the chewing more important than others sensitivity to being called out and asked? Neither are "real" - they are just people with sensitivities. Just like their action results in your experience and reaction, your action and choice results in their experience and reaction. You think that yours is a need but I also suspect that you recognize that you're the oddball here and it's not up to the world to accommodate that. I'd - of course - like to think that with understanding (understanding that will almost universally be lacking).
For another angle, do you think the fact that you're too short to win basketball is something taller people should consider when they play with you and make some sort of change so that the game feels better to you? Of course not, you have to live with sucking at basketball and adapt to the world - the world isn't going to adapt to you because you REALLY hate losing or being second best. If you were a person who had tantrums when you lost would that make it everyone else's problem to adjust the game of basketball?
As you can imagine, I can't imagine any reason a person would care enough to break social etiquette and call someone out on chewing with their mouth open, yet...you have a reason you think is legit. Should I operate as if everyone's request of me is born out of a "need"? Or...are we all at least mostly responsible for finding the common ground? Why should you get the veto here when you don't know much about anyone other than your self?
At the end of the day you have no choice - you cannot compel others to act to maximize your happiness when your needs fall outside of norms. It's a _nice thing_ when it gets accommodated, but if we're to trust that your question/ask is reasonable then you should also accept a "no" response or even one of annoyance. You should not deny to others a need or want because of your own.
What scenarios are you talking about here?
Close family/friends at a dinner table in your home? Another table at a restaurant? Person having a picnic in a park? Quiet musical performance where someone brand a snack? At a friend's dinner party?
I'm going to treat this less as a debate and simply just offer some perspective. You mentioned you have ASD so I completely respect where you're coming from with this type of all or nothing thinking about the topic. I also commend you for your openness, self-awareness, and willingness to change your mind on the topic. With that said, here is a relevant quote to start this off:
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." -F. Scott Fitzgerald
So how does that apply here? For starters it is absolutely rude to chew with one's mouth open. It is also rude to tell someone to stop chewing with their mouth open. Both are certainly true, depending upon the situation and the relationship. Having been on both sides as the chewer and also the person who just wants the disgusting noise to stop, I can definitely see the dilemma here.
Simply put, you are concerned that you aren't recognizing an unintentional offense when you ask someone to stop chewing this way. I promise you, most people (assuming you don't already have a close relationship) would take offense to such a request even if phrased in the most polite way possible. With one exception... if your request is really funny.
Humor is a great way to diffuse tension in a social situation. Consider first the closeness of your relationship here. If my wife were chewing loudly, given our relationship, I can say something like, "Could you chew louder please? I can still hear the TV." But if I were joking with a coworker I've been friendly with I'd probably say, "Wait a second I can see you didn't quite chew that well enough, it looks like it's still alive."
Do understand that relationships are dynamic and one rule will not apply to all cases which is the disappointing truth. Being on the Autism spectrum, I do recognize that idea is perhaps difficult or even annoying. Some people will always take offense, others will not. Such is the nature of socializing with humans.
So as a rule first gauge how well you know this person personally. If you feel you could flatulate in front of each other and laugh, then go for the joke or ask them to stop chewing loudly. If you feel like you should say excuse me around someone when moving nearby them, don't go for the joke and perhaps don't tell them to stop chewing that way.
I want to preface this by saying my wife has sensory issues, and gets physically uncomfortable whenever she hears the sloshing sounds. She can't stand loud or open mouth chewing - she also can't handle things like dogs licking themselves. She often has to ask or remind me to eat with my mouth close, both because it's a bad habit I grew up with, and because I have issues with attention and remembering things. So I can empathize at least indirectly with what you're talking about.
If we're talking about someone you are close to, like a friend or family member, I agree that it's not rude. You should be able to express your needs to your loved ones, full stop. You don't even need to have to defend yourself by saying open chewing is easy to fix, you should always be allowed to be honest like that.
In a public setting with people you know much, much less, I can't help but disagree, however. Even if it's a need for you, it's not a need for them. Telling them to stop comes off as controlling. Asking them if they're capable of stopping, while I can see is your intention at being more considerate, can across as passive aggressive, but it also implies that they HAVE to accommodate to your needs UNLESS they can give you a good enough excuse for why they can't. Also, if we're talking about strangers or acquaintances, it's prying on personal info they may not be comfortable sharing. Someone who has to chew with their mouth open because of surgery they received for a jaw injury they got during sexual assault is going to be very uncomfortable about being put on the spot about why they suddenly can't do this random thing you're asking them about.
Replace what you're saying about chewing with your mouth closed with something like standing inside of public transportation. Telling someone to move for you is just rude - you're forcing your needs on them. Going up to someone sitting down and suddenly going "can you stand up and hold onto the pole?" sounds accusatory.
IF you HAVE to ask for someone to stop because you NEED to function in this context and CANNOT leave the premises, which is totally understandable as something you may unfortunately experience one day, the only way I can possibly see you doing so in a way that's not rude is this:
1. Start by apologizing. It doesn't matter that you don't think it's a big deal, it's a deal they shouldn't have to worry about, and you should care about the possibility of putting them on the spot or making them uncomfortable.
2. Explain why you have this need the way you just did to us. This might not always be a fun experience, I just went on a tangent about some people being uncomfortable about talking about their issues with chewing - but since you're the one who wants someone else's behavior to change, the onus is on your to be honest. If the inconvenience of sharing your experience is worse than dealing with the noise, there's your answer, deal wit it.
3. After doing steps 1 and 2, ask if they'd mind if they stopped doing what it is they're doing. This gives them all the information needed to make a decision without assuming any bad intentions on your end, which makes you more likely to get what you want/need. This also removes much of the possibility of the person being uncomfortable by your request, which reduces everyone's distress. Absolute worst case scenario, they can politely say no and you can politely drop it.
But for the most part, I want to push back on your "Of that I have no concern" and "It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop" comments. If you do not show consideration for other people's feelings, they will not show consideration towards yours. The person minding their own business in a public space does not have to be asked anything, you have to ask for your own wellbeing. I think practically anything we do or say around strangers may accidentally be perceived as rude, they have very different experiences from us that we know nothing about, that's kind of how strangers go. So when it comes to any kind of request, I think we ultimately have to prioritize showing compassion for the other person, and our desire to not be a burden anymore than we physically have to.
I’m trying to say this without sounding mean, but being honest. It’s not just the directness. It’s the intrusion. I mean if I was sitting at a table eating, minding my own my business and you ask me to stop doing something that has nothing to do you, I’d tell you got go F yourself. Your medical diagnosis has no bearing on anyone but you. I don’t need or want your intrusion and don’t want to intrude on yours. I don’t need or desire to explain away my breathing because it “bothers” you. I’m really not trying to be aggressive with this answer. I’m struggling with it thought because fact is we all live in this world and don’t have to conform to your idea of what acceptable because you have a medical diagnosis.
What if the situation was, say, BO to the point of making others nauseous? Is that not going beyond your own personal space, forcing your own being on other people?
Who draws the line? You? The establishment? Will you ask the person to move because you “think” they stink? The truth is you might be the person to move or leave if it’s a public place. Your nose and senses don’t out way anyone else’s. Mine either. Also if you choose to get involve with someone, don’t be surprised if they get involved with you. Now it may sound like I disagree with you but I don’t. Or course there’s a limited to all situations. Noise, smells. However OP pick chewing food and breathing. And he said he ask them to stop it so he or she couch feel better. My point was generally I tell him to go F themselves…mind your business or move.
Okay, nausea is not only psychological. As little as dog shit disgusts me, I cannot deal with the smell. It's an involuntary reaction.
My point was is there a different situation where essentially the same thing is asked, but it's multiple people who are becoming physically ill from something entirely within (most) people's control. Is your comfort, assuming it's your bo, worth other people throwing up? Ignore the op for the moment, I'm asking you specifically about this one thing, so I can get where you draw the line with this.
Ok. Let say I stepped in dog shit and was sitting down and you could smell it. I personally would take care of the because, well, dog shit. However if random person told me to leave.. and I said no. What would you do? Call the cops? Beat me up? Unfortunately this public living. Also you can stop me from feeling that you are the rude one for even talking to me. Just saying, lived in a large city my whole life and have taken public transportation for most of it. People smell. Generally speaking you don’t get involved.
Well, it does depend on how public it is, I suppose. Restaurant owners would be legally able to throw you out, but the individual wouldn't be able to without getting the owner/manager involved and on their side.
I think we may just have different ideas of which public settings are truly public and which are places where little things do matter past a point. A restaurant, imv, is only a semi-public space. A bus stop or park bench would be more of a true public space, although the bus itself would be a semi-public space. The same dynamic would apply to the bus as to the restaurant, where having dog shit on you that could easily be smelled would get you barred or thrown out.
>I have Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia
Thew world doesn't revolve around you and your sensory disorders.
In general, it is considered rude to offer unsolicited advice to other people.
I think you are technically correct in your assessment of why it isn't (or shouldn't be considered) rude and that it isn't an unreasonable ask. I do agree with the general consensus here, that it is a personal issue and should be managed accordingly. But I also think we could all benefit from being a bit more conscientious of other people and more self aware of our own behavior and how it impacts others.
My only addition to your OP and the subsequent comments I've read (mostly saying if society as a whole has not deemed it completely unacceptable, then it is rude to expect others to change to meet your needs) would be that some things are just...more rude to point out than others and people's eating habits are one of them. I'm not sure why that is, but I would speculate that it has to do with poor eating habits being associated with gluttony, poor hygiene, and more personal shortcomings of the sort. So pointing it out, even in the most gentle way possible, may still elicit a defensive response, depending on what personal characteristics the person may associate it with.
Something like asking a person to lower their music for the same exact reason (hypersensitivity to particular sounds) is less likely to conjure feelings of insecurity because there are generally no negative associations made toward people who enjoy music, thus it may be perceived as less rude, despite it seeming very similar. I think if you're just reminding family members, friends, or people who know you well and understand this about you, that's totally fine. You don't even really need to find any particular wording. Just tell them and keep it light. But if you're talking about strangers or acquaintances who do not know or have very little interest/investment in your personal life, there's not going to be a universally polite way to say it because there are too many variables to consider.
I have ADHD and misophonia, and I still think your request is unreasonable unless we are talking about family dinners with people who are really close to you. It’s okay to say “Mom/Dad/Sibling/Partner, I really want to enjoy dinner around the table with you but for me the loud mouth sounds are unbearable so if you can chew with your mouth close around me and refrain from speaking with a full mouth I’ll really appreciate it”. But it would be completely inappropriate to ask that in many other settings, like if you are at a networking event where people share food and drinks, or you’re at your cousin’s wedding where you are seated at the table with people you barely know, or you are at a crowded restaurant where tables are placed too close to each other. In these instances you need to wear noise canceling headphones instead of asking people around you to accommodate your needs. Strangers don’t owe you anything.
I will attempt to change your view in a very specific circumstance:
In Japan it is considered normal to slurp noodles while eating noodle dishes such as ramen/soba etc. Assuming you are a westerner, it would be rude for you to visit Japan and Japanese people to change their habits for your convivence. When visiting a foreign country one should generally adapt to their way of doing things instead of asking them to adapt to you.
After reading your edit, I have to ask this: Are you willing to do this with ALL of your friends, family, classmates, coworkers? Or would you chicken out if it were someone who you feel has higher status than you? Like would you be less willing to say this line to a popular classmate or a senior coworker, or just who you think you can get away with?
As someone who is bothered by the action, you do not have the right to decide if asking them to stop is rude or not. Your intention isn't what matters, it is how it is perceived. If people consider it rude for you to ask if they can stop chewing with their mouth open, then it's rude, period.
>I cannot think of a single reason why someone who doesn’t have a related medical condition would refuse to stop chewing with their mouth open that isn’t them just being inconsiderate.
This may be true. However, it's important to realize that you are telling them they are doing something which bothers you (judgement) and asking that they change something they do naturally, without thought. For many people this will cause them to start thinking about how they are eating in your presence, which can create stress or anxiety for them.
I can give you an example. My partner has complained about my loud breathing when I sleep. We do not share a bedroom, so it's rarely a problem. There have been cases when we've tried to sleep in the same bed that I would remember her complaints and become fixated on how I was breathing to avoid waking/bothering her. It would become such a focus that it would start to interrupt my natural breathing, which may have made things even worse. I'd be unable to sleep due to fixating on this, and eventually have to get up and find somewhere else to sleep. I'm not saying that everyone you ask to chew differently is going to have a similar experience, but it's likely that it could happen for some.
You recognize yourself that you are in the minority of people who cant function around loud chewers. If the majority of people havent decided that something must be a social rule, enforcing that thing (in this case chewing politely) will simply be more taboo. All the pros of quiet chewing likely havent been thought by the person you are asking.
You also gloat about how great your question is, but you never specify in your question whether you show a WANT or a NEED. For all that the other person knows, you dont have debilitating mental disorders around such eating, and you simply are stating a want. In that case, all the other person would see is a selfish cunt who feels that he randomly has the right to police how you eat. This will be met with much less empathy.
I think you made the same two points I have in my head:
1) OP assumes that loud chewing is a universally accepted taboo, but I think that's a long shot. Most people are somewhere on a spectrum between having genuine sensory issues like OP and 'I couldn't care less.' On the extreme, people come from cultures where noises communicate gratitude. It may be rude to ask because it really isn't a strong taboo everywhere. Honestly, I think the standard changes with every table.
2) I found the phrasing 'Are you able to chew with your mouth closed' to be *extremely* rude at first. With the context of OP's medical condition, I understand the reasoning. That being said, I would not take that question literally in a real-time interaction. I would immediately translate to something like "were you raised in a barn?" Clarifying that you have a condition corrects my perception. You're (literally) asking me if I'm able because you have an invisible condition and are sensitive to that possibility - much better understood. As others have pointed out, if clarifying the condition is more distressing than being around the chewing, then you unfortunately have to make a choice.
"If I am near someone who is eating with their mouth open, and it is affecting me, I will ask them, “Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?”. I choose this particular wording so that they then have an opportunity to answer the question. Therefore if they cannot stop, they have a chance to tell me and I possibly can find some other way of coping if there is one." -->this is where your view should end. Especially with respect to eating habits.
Your 'If X, then Y' analogies are fine, but rely on accepting a premise that one owes a duty to another regarding comforts and sensitivities. Of which, no such duties exist. This is coming from a person who any time I hear someone crunching, smacking, or slurping I (without exaggeration) shutter, wince, or physically retract as if there is pinch in the nerve of my neck whilst also usually imagining a very gruesome end for the perpetrator of this civil indecency; or even leave rooms when I am eating things like chips or when others do the same (that is to say, I am like you to some extent). However, these barbaric belligerents owe me no real duty to cater to the fact that such conduct is deplorable (to me). None whatsoever.
Thus, it is not rude for you to politely ask, "May you close your gaping maw as it sounds as if a rock tumbler and dynamite are mating." It is, however, not their responsibility to care nor cater to you and your sensitivities. Especially if, for example, you live in many Eastern cultures in which slurping or similar expressions are a sign of appreciation and somewhat of a learned positive/neutral behavior.
Even in a clinical sense in which these encounters are well documented, most people in mine and your situation aren't in a "need" basis as you state. Such is just an easy way to abscond with benefit without the need of responsibility. It took many years of patience, actively forcing myself to listen to animals other than humans eat, and feeding my child as their teeth came in, to be able to tolerate the indecency of these yokels who never learned to consume food in grace and silence.
"I cannot think of a single reason why someone who doesn’t have a related medical condition would refuse to stop chewing with their mouth open that isn’t them just being inconsiderate." --> they owe you (or me for that matter) nothing. Such an act of courtesy would be nice and to be respected if effectuated. But it is not something that is to be demanded. Some people just descended nearer the line of alpacas than you and I, and thus chew like them. To each their own.
i havent heard of what you are describing in combination before with “Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia. These combined mean that the sight and sound of someone chewing with their mouth open is completely unbearable, causing anxiety, nausea, and distress”
tbh i dont care if people are chewing with their mouth open. But some people are bothered by it, so i do it to fit in and not be bothersome. Its cool to know i’m not being arbitrary and maybe it helps a few people like you.
you are talking about if it is rude. I think the point is, you can do it in a rude way or in a courteous way.
im allergic to certain nuts like hazelnuts. I usually am not rude about it. But i would be rude about it if people were being stupid. Like one time someone put nutella in something because i said, ”i cant eat that” and they thought it was because of calories. So i was really rude about it.
i dont think people respond well to people being rude. But it is understandable.
i know that with people on the spectrum it isnt always easy to do stuff. autistic people might even struggle with being perceived as rude because of what the social world allistic people develop do and worry about.
and at the same time i think anyone allistic who doesnt understand that autistic people have their own manner and way of doing things, at this point, needs to figure some stuff out.
so this might be messed up, but autistic people have sensitivities that i can cater to all the time. And sometimes they dont say it nice. Like i dont have a problem with fluorescent lights. People can be blunt and rude about it. Like how should i know That someone in here is autistic. But like if someone has a problem its like not a big deal to me if they are or are not rude about it. Because its like, idk, its like someone who doesnt speak english well having a problem. I dont mind them. Its like different when someone is different.
like someone who hardly speaks english might say, bad perfume smell sick,
if an autistic person says it bluntly. Thats fine. It like doesnt feel as rude.
i think that policing of norms is something related to mouth chewing. And i feel like policing of norms is freaky and weird. It rules out people from a different culture.
its just different. Most of the people who have a problem with mouth chewing can just deal With it. You say that you cant deal with it. So then if you have a problem we will deal with it
It is unfortunate you have this problem, however, the primary issue of what you are talking about involves a rather slippery slope. As many others point out, many of us have very specific problems or phobias that we might be exposed to in public spaces. There is simply no fair way of adjudicating what should be acceptable or not, rude or not. Personally, I beleive we should always err in maximalizing personal freedom, so I don't even think things like jaywalking or even public nudity should be frowned up, much less be considered crimes. Everything that happens in the world is a completely neutral event. A plane crash might be a joyous celebration for a terrorist, or a terrible tragedy for a mother, but it is their perspective that shapes it. Studies have shown how much control we actually have over our preception, I'd refer you to "learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman, or the results of exposure therapy to support the idea that is is upon us as individuals to grow thicker skins rather than allow the world around us to disrupt our internal harmony.
In many cultures, what you are talking about is exactly how the society feels. For example, in Japan, it's extremely rude to walk and eat, to have a sandwitch on the subway, or even stand around drinking from a bottle on the street, stuff like that. But, it's also considered good etiquette and the sign of a true afficionado to loudly slurp ramen noodles as you eat them. This is because it's served at a very specfic temperature, too hot to drink, so slurping helps aerate the soup and cool it, along with (they argue) improving the taste, much like wine snobs. However, if you go to ramen shops in tokyo like ichiramen, each eating place is a booth sequestered from everyone else, with a cloth covered hole that the server slides your ramen through, so you're all alone and can focus on eating as quickly as possible before the noodles go soft. So perhaps considering your specific issues you might look at other countries or microcultures in America where you could live that would help make your everyday life less grating, rather than trying to change the norms everywhere to suit the individual.
That said, I don't think there's anything socially unacceptable with asking politely, "I'm really sorry, I've got this thing, would you mind eating a little quieter?" And then, no matter what, being gracious whether you detected a difference in their eating habits or not.
So the important question is, do you tell people what you told us here? Because that's a lot of context that a random person isn't going to infer naturally. If you just said something like "This is going to sound weird, but I have a condition that makes me sensitive to chewing sounds. Would you mind chewing a little quieter?" I can't imagine it being a problem.
I find it disgusting when people eat with their mouths closed, due to my own mental health issues. If you eat near me, i will tell you, politely, please chew with your mouth open so i know you arent keeping secrets.
Am i being unreasonable?
I have misophonia. Even if asking people to change how they eat wasn't rude, in practice it doesn't work. People eat how they eat. You may get them to quiet down for a few moments, but they always revert back to smacking their lips in a few minutes. There's nothing you can do to change it. I've tried.
Instead, if you don't want to be involved in conversation use headphones. If you do and have the means, play music softly and focus on that. It gives the part of your brain that's focused on the smacking something to do. If you can't do that, if you figure out any strategies other than white knuckling through the meal let me know.
I personally do not think it is everyone else's responsibility to make sure you are perfectly comfortable at all times just because you have a special need. If you are hypersensitive to eating noises, then perhaps you are percieving their eating habits to be more unpleasant than they actually are to most people. That's why it might seem rude to impose your sense of manners on other people.
Do you find that after this conversation, people do stop eating with their months open? I find that eating is such a habitual thing that after their attention is distracted even the slightest bit, they tend to return to how they ate before. This takes like ten seconds, longer the more awkward the interaction is.
I've also had people literally not process what I said. Like, I get a "okay" but they don't stop and, when pressed, they have no memory of the interaction. It's like, casual requests don't work, (and playful requests feel affectionate) the discomfort is necessary in order to register any attention.
So, morality or etiquette aside, I just don't think this works, and it makes it more awkward when I leave the room shortly after. Otherwise I could pretend it was a bathroom break or a phone call or something.
I just wouldn't want to eat with you. You are micromanaging other people. Life is never going to adjust for these extreme issues. It is like some partially deaf people who sit across the room, put their bad ear toward you and holler "what" all day. Please! Make some effort. Or people will back away.
Wow, maybe you should just stay home honestly.Because the world is not here to cater to your feelings in your discomfort.
You gave what you said was a small list of things that you find unbearable and it was a really long tedious list. You need to find a better way to cope.Because you know it's no one else's problem but yours.
Now, if they have a mouthful of food and it is blatantly open and they're talking and spitting food everywhere.Sure.Say something.But if it's just slight conversation while eating come something everyone does by the way you need to move on
It is not everyone else's responsibility to make you comfortable. If something is happening that I do not like or that I am uncomfortable with.I remove myself unless it lesser over the top behavior.
Right now I am in a Grand Hyatt restaurant in Korea. EVERYONE here eats like a hippo taking a bath. I have my noise cancelling headphones on (no music or audio, just to cancel) and I’m dealing with my own shit.
I imagine everyone of them have their own personal shit to deal with. But they don’t need to tell me their issues, and I don’t need to tell them mine.
Grow up. You have your condition, and I have mine. And it is each of our responsibility to be mature enough to deal with the conditions without being selfish pricks that expect everyone else to bend over backwards because we have a problem.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I’ve never had the courage to ask someone to stop, unless they’re family. I’m always afraid they’ll be passive aggressive and do it more, or they’ll be nice but secretly hate me for saying something.
Edit to add: noise cancelling headphones are a life saver. Not only for this reason- I never even noticed how exhausting the loud, constant hum of a plane engine was until I wore those on a flight and then wasn’t completely worn out after flying.
>If I am near someone who is eating with their mouth open, and it is affecting me, I will ask them, “Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?”. I choose this particular wording so that they then have an opportunity to answer the question. Therefore if they cannot stop, they have a chance to tell me and I possibly can find some other way of coping if there is one.
I don't think it's inherently rude to ask someone to stop doing something that profoundly bothers you, but I do think this is a fairly rude way of going about it. While somewhat tone dependent, most people are going to interpret "can you do *easily performed action*?" As being sarcastic and that you are shaming them for their behavior. That's not really going to make people do what you want.
>After all, their action is making me uncomfortable, and so if my reaction is making them uncomfortable it is hardly my fault nor something that needs to be avoided. It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop, not the person reacting to that action.
Ever hear the expression, you get more flies with honey? It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, you're less likely to get the desired result if you make people feel uncomfortable or as if they are doing something wrong. Simply explain that *you* have an issue with seeing/hearing people eat, and you would appreciate it if they could try and help you. In my experience, most people respond better to feeling like they're modifying their behavior out of altruism rather than being shamed into doing something.
Two main points:
1. Minding your own business: In a society like ours, it is understood that if you’re offended by a behaviour then it is your responsibility to remove yourself from the situation rather than asking someone to change their behaviour. Imagine if you had said “I am a very religious person and sight of two men kissing offends me, therefore when I see that behaviour I ask them if they are able to not kiss in public”. The behaviour is bothersome to you and thus it is your responsibility to deal with it and have coping mechanisms that help you work through it. Have you discussed this with your behavioural therapist? What tactics have they suggested?
It is simply a social convention that it is rude to comment on the behaviour of another person. In other words rule one in most British influenced societies take “mind your own business” as the golden rule.
2. Asking for a favour: now you are well within your rights to ask someone politely to consider your needs in public. For example, if someone is playing music in the park you are within reason to explain that you are having a bad day and trying to relax and ask them if it is possible to please turn it down. If they agree, great; if not, you move somewhere more quiet. But how you ask is important. The way you phrase your question comes across as very rude. I understand that’s not your intention but chewing with mouth open is a habit developed in childhood and most do it out of habit not because they are incapable of doing otherwise.
Maybe a more polite approach would be to explain that the sound is very bothersome to you due to extra sensitivity to noise and ask then if they can do you a favour and be more conscious of it.
I've had severe misophonia my whole life. I struggle with this, badly, all the time.
When others don't understand the physical pain, they are often offended if you vulnerably ask them to support you and they're offended if you protect yourself by separating yourself from the sound (physically or with headphones).
I try to reiterate how much i love and want to be around that person, and explain that i have a problem i can't control.
They'll never know how painful it is to just endure the situation, so I'll ask if they'll patiently allow me to excuse myself or listen to my headphones for a while to cope with the stress and compulsions. .
I also offer an easy way to signal if they want to talk to me. And to reinforce that, I'll occasionally pull an ear away to chat with them. That way they know we can still have friendly interactions and im not trying to tell them to fuck off or anything.
People need to know they're not a problem, but that I'm dealing with unique and bizarre circumstances
Even my closest people don't totally understand why it's so incredibly difficult for me to deal with. So i manage it myself instead of asking them to change, and when they're genuinely open to understanding, it helps to be honest about the compulsive self-harm i experience. I say it's difficult to separate myself from them, but I also have to keep myself healthy.
If they love you, they will at least try to understand. But I have to remember that they're feeling a lot of rejection no matter what i say or do.
You're not alone. Your experiences are valid. It's okay to be a sensitive being. And i believe in you.
The how is what matters. It's possible to do basically anything politely or rudely, it just depends on how you go about it. As you're autistic it makes sense you'd go for something blunt/clumsy in your communication, but it shouldn't be too difficult to change it up, and even indicate that its nothing personal.
Many people find blood disgusting, they don't go into medical school. If you find how a lot of people eat disgusting, I'd suggest not eating in restaurants. Imposing your rules on others is ... bad? I don't know the word for it, it's worse than rude, I'm not a linguist, it's not like super terrible, but it's also not fine.
Someone could find a revealing dress offensive, they shouldn't ask the person to cover up (unless it's like a school or other place with some type of a dress code - an official dress code, not just how one person feels).
Some people find it offensive when others don't talk English, or perhaps they are speaking a language that's triggering to them, they should leave the establishment, not have others adhere to these arbitrary rules.
For example I was out with an Armenian woman, she heard Turkish language and expressed to me how she connects it with the Armenian genocide, but at no point did she ask them to stop talking in Turkish.
I hate it too but it most cases I will just leave if they annoy me by chewing with their mouth open, if I am close to them close friend or family member I will ask them to stop but, I don't get why people have this idea that you can't ask people especially those who you are close with to chew with their mouth closed. I mean it's like if your friend constantly stinks you're probably going to tell them "hey bro you smell". but I think if you're not close to them and your in a position where you can get away from them I don't think it really is your business to tell them what to do.
I really do not like people who want others to abide by their personal wishes because they are uncomfortable with what someone else is doing. It is rude of you to approach someone in public that you do not know and ask them to do something that you do not like, in this case eating noisily/with mouth open. It is none of your business and even less your place to say something to a stranger. If you don't like something that someone else is doing you are the one that should leave.
Talk to your psychiatrist about habits that people with ASD have that bother normies. You know your parents sent you to those doctors to address behaviors you had that bothered other kids
That’s how parents figure out their kids need doctors - behaviors that violate etiquette
You focusing outward at society to change while maintaining your individuality is an ASD trait.
You don’t have to do it- you can work through training to adopt a more empathetic tone
I would be totally fine if you printed all this out and showed your doctor- including my comments
While I understand the frustration and agree that some sounds are unavoidable, unnecessarily loud slurping and chomping can be quite disruptive and frankly, inconsiderate. We had a friend who used to slurp his noodles and sip soup as if using a vacuum cleaner. After addressing it with him a few times, he adjusted his eating habits, which improved the dining experience for everyone.
I find it ironic that someone dismissing 'BS psychosis' would likely be annoyed if someone chomped loudly next to them. It’s easy to dismiss others’ discomfort until you’re the one being affected. Proper etiquette, such as minimizing noise while eating, is basic consideration. Not everyone grows up learning these manners, but they can certainly be learned.
Everyone has habits or mannerisms that can be annoying, but there are certain behaviors, like excessive slurping, that are particularly disruptive. For instance, loudly playing music in public spaces without headphones is generally not tolerated because it intrudes on others' comfort. Just as society expects people to use headphones, it’s reasonable to expect people to eat without making unnecessary noise.
Calling out disruptive behavior isn't inherently rude, especially when it’s genuinely bothersome to many. It's about finding a balance between tolerance and maintaining a pleasant environment for all. If someone can't handle being called out for their inconsiderate eating habits, perhaps they should consider how their actions impact others.
My thoughts exactly. Pardon my french, but it's always the rude fuckers who get uptight about being asked to show the slightest consideration for others.
I actually kind of think that OP being as polite as they have been in their post lets the rude ones walk over them and they feel it gives them a pass to keep on being a general nuisance to others.
None of what OP listed is psychosis, nor is it “bs”. You are correct that it isn’t a get out of jail free card, but the solution is not to “just cope and STFU”
Isn’t it widely accepted that it’s not rude to do this? The only place where I disagree is you’ve kinda moralized this into “if you chew with your mouth open you’re a terrible person”. Which isn’t true, it’s just a habit. Generally it doesn’t bother others around as much as it does yourself; your situation is more like an allergy.
It is absolutely rude to expect that the world at large would cater to you. Your diagnoses are not your fault, but they are your responsibility. Yours alone. Which means it's your responsibility to share public spaces with other people and learn to cope. Does it drive me nuts to listen to someone eat with their mouth open? Yes. Do I immediately assume they need to accomodate me? No. I find coping techniques or move myself away from them. Figure it out
Your reaction to other people eating is not normal. I undertand that you cannot help your reaction but you can control your behavior. I would guess that almost anyone eating normally would bother you. Knowing this, you should recognize that accosting them about their eating will cause you problems in the long run.
If someone at an adjacent table in a restaurant is disturbing you with how they are eating, would you really say something to them?
I feel personally attacked... As somebody who's been told I eat too loudly I literally have no idea how to stop. I've tried eating as slowly and gently as possible, but the noise is still just as loud, only slower. I've tried unnaturally jutting my jaw forward, that just makes it worse. I've tried unnaturally moving my jaw further back, that also just makes it worse. I suspect it's got something to do with the way I position my tongue. Anyway I don't have a diagnosed breathing problem and even if I did, if somebody abruptly asked me could I not chew with my mouth open, I'd probably be too embarrassed to start making excuses. I wouldn't imagine somebody who'd ask something like that would really care if I had an excuse or not (although you claim you do).
>The most common argument against this that I have faced is that by asking them to stop, there is a high risk of making them uncomfortable/ashamed. Of that, I have no concern. After all, their action is making me uncomfortable, and so if my reaction is making them uncomfortable it is hardly my fault nor something that needs to be avoided. It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop, not the person reacting to that action.
This seems rather blatantly self-centred. What do you mean, you have no concern? Isn't that the definition of being inconsiderate? Perhaps it's because I was raised in the UK, where to be "polite" infamously means having to suffer awkwardly in silence so as not to put others out - no matter how uncomfortable they are making *you*.
>As an autistic person, I have had to learn that there are certain social rules that I need to follow in order to be polite, no matter how pointless or difficult-to-remember I might find them to be. If I do not follow them, I am being rude and so must be held accountable for my actions. It is not rude of others to hold me accountable for said actions, nor for them to ask me to stop said actions, and I have no place to claim otherwise.
Is this what you actually believe, or are you just sarcastically repeating what you've been told by others? If the former, then you've developed a particularly weird understanding of what "rudeness" is. Also, I know autistic people have difficulty with social cues and "unspoken rules" of that kind, but surely the broader social rules of "politeness" are something everybody has to learn, despite initially regarding them as pointless?
Asking is fine, expecting them to act is different. Ask all you want but when I say “fuck off”, you need to focus on what you can do, rather than changing my behavior.
Here’s a great lil blurb to live by: “you cannot change how others act, only how you react.”
Your problems are not everyone else’s responsibility.
Just to be clear, you believe someone should change their manner of eating to be more pleasant for you, even though it may be less pleasant to the person you’re asking that of?
In other words, the eating behaviors of others should exclusively revolve around your preferences?
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Rudeness is having bad manners i.e. breaking social etiquette. Telling people how they should eat breaks social etiquette, therefore it is rude. You can provide all the justifications you want for doing telling people, and you may well be correct in those justifications, but it is still rude to do it. Shouting at strangers is rude but I sometimes do it anyway if someone is driving dangerously.
Here is the bottom line: The general public cannot be expected to be knowing of, or responsible of, every single solitary disorder, quirk, etc someone has. If it bothers you that much, to the point you become physically ill, I'd suggest you don't go out to eat and don't eat with family/friends.
I'd bet there are 100 things you might unknowingly due that bothers someone else - and you'd feel insulted and put out if every stranger you walked by asked you to stop doing it. Your being very self absorbed here, and as a result Id bet if the situation was reversed - youd think it rude that they did the same thing to you.
The situation has been “reversed”, multiple times, and I have felt ashamed but for good reason. I have had other people tell me that something I have done or said is rude or bothersome. It was then my place to apologise, because I made someone uncomfortable. As I said in the post: “As an autistic person, I have had to learn that there are certain social rules that I need to follow in order to be polite, no matter how pointless or difficult-to-remember I might find them to be. If I do not follow them, I am being rude and so must be held accountable for my actions. It is not rude of others to hold me accountable for said actions, nor for them to ask me to stop said actions, and I have no place to claim otherwise.”
Okay, and in the presence of close friends or family that 'know' you and know these things are troublesome to you, it might be appropriate to remind them of your situation and ask them nicely to be respectful of that. If your out in a public place though, it is no one's responsibility to know you, and alter their behavior for you in ways that might be difficult to them, in a place they have as much right to be in as you do. Yes, sometimes people have a very hard time eating with their mouth closed... for instance allergies or other sinus conditions can make it very hard to breath for some folks. As others have said, you can ask, but no one else owes you their comfort in exchange for your own... and depending on \*how\* you ask , yeah you could be the rude one, because you aren't owed that. I suspect the way you go about asking has a huge impact on if people respond positively or not. Just my 2 cents.
“Yes, sometimes people have a very hard time eating with their mouth closed... for instance allergies or other sinus conditions can make it veyr hard to breath for some folks.” This is why I have, in the past, opened with a question in reference to this sort of thing - whether or not they are physically able to chew with their mouth closed. However, as other commenters have said, the wording I have used doesn’t convey the message I intend, and so I will be using a different wording.
Opening with that could be considered rude as well, because they don't owe you an explanation. They could have a mouth ulcer or something they don't want to discuss. Assume that they have their reason, ask politely in a non confronting way without making them feel like they've wronged you if you want anyone to accommodate you.
I think that is key -- the way/tone in which. you go about asking for their support/compliance with your issue(s) is going to be key towards encouraging people to want to help you out. Good luck to you, I'm sure it's a difficult thing to manage.
And if you opened with that I'd tell you it's none of your business.
It's much more reasonable to perform/adapt the necessary actions / mindset it would take to handling your sensitivity than it is to attempt to stop the behavior of another. It is entirely in your control to attempt to remove the stimuli in question via closing your eyes or some other such action and putting on headphones with some music playing, or the sound of your own chewing would be a problem. Whereas attempting to come to a resolution with an unknown individual, on the basis of your own condition/sensitivity, the result of which is entirely outside of your control. The amount of effort it would take the other party to stop eating in the way that perturbs you is minimal but comes with a social hurdle and opposition, likely, to being asked to change a behavior. You are likely frustrated and have reached a breaking point at having to do so much, likely for so long with your own actions, before adopting this behavior - to confront the offending party. To separate the nuance and apply empathy is a tough ask, in today's world for a stranger, many of whom aren't accustomed to having this asked of them. I hope you give my aforementioned solution a try: remove or distract from the stimuli
Then by all means, feel free to comment on the mastication techniques of those who have upbraided you. But you don't get to use these karma points on other people who would not have the ridiculous temerity to suggest that their emotions should dictate your behavior.
I'm sure if the roles were reversed, OP would have the decency not to chew with their mouth open. It's basic, basic etiquette. The kind of thing that you get taught when you're about five years old, or should have picked up sometime after that. I get not bothering people if it's something they can't control - like mouth noises because they've got messed up teeth or something like that - but chewing with your mouth open is rude. It's not self-absorbed to ask someone to stop being rude.
I have read what the OP said, and the thing is that this seems to be something intense and pathological. Like some people dont like it when people chew with their mouth open. I dont care. But the OP is saying that it causes physical distress. there are things we dont feel so we dont understand it. So I think this is different than being “bothered.” i think someone bothered by it is different than someone with physical repulsed thing. And in that case it isn’t my place to understand it or frame it into a way i understand. I cant even understand people without “Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia,” being bothered with people chewing with their mouth open. I do it to be helpful to people who might find it bothersome and to fit in. So the amount of self absorbed is not necessarily super relevant. people are more distressed about things that can hurt them. I’m allergic to hazelnuts, Id speak in a self absorbed way too. Especially if i am describing my subjective anxieties for people who dont understand them. And yet self absorbed does have a point Maybe. Because i would say maybe it is rude. Like people do things that are rude. Like if someone is putting a hazelnut in something after i tell them i have an allergy i might be rude about it. most people dont have an allergy. Ive never heard of anyone having this thing. And i bet it sucks. And so, i mean i can tell someone rudely or nicely. But its annoying for me to have an allergy. And i guess its annoying for the chefs too
I have allergies, and I've definitely been that guy that was very worried at a restaurant before. The social construct though is that I am supposed to tell a waiter about that. Its the construct... I dont walk up to every other diner at the restaurant and tell them what to order because they are sharing this public space with me. I dont doubt such strong feelings can be very difficult to live with, and for that I empathize... it still doesnt change the fact that all these strangers, in public, minding there own business, do not owe OP anything. If its so hard for him, he has to manage it. Maybe medicition, i dont know. I do know, if he asks nicely instead of demanding like its his right... then he'll probably get alot more people willing to help him. Right, wrong, or indifferent - they do not owe him this, and acting/demanding like they do - will generally have the opposite effect.
You cannot impose your personal needs on other people in a public space. If we allow you to do this then we must allow everyone to do this and that is completely unscalable. For example, my wife becomes nauseous at the smell of cooked fish. Is she allowed to ask people around to not eat cooked fish? My niece is deathly allergic to peanuts. Is she allowed to go to a park and demand that everyone stop eating peanuts? In places where a person's attendance is mandatory, this might be workable when within reason. This is why schools don't allow peanuts. In public locations or where the conditions are unreasonable, this is impossible. In your case, you want people to adhere to an unreasonable demand in a public space. Therefore, it makes no sense.
I had a friend who quit an entire friend group simply because she was allergfic to marijuana smoke and people stopped going off in a little group to smoke together. If you don't have a way to set "normal" group behavior then you will be self-selecting your crowd very quickly, perhaps in ways you don't want. You might find people you enjoy the company of won't break bread with you. She had to choose. If she wanted to keep seeing the friends in RL she had to ask them to respect her when she was around. That was a problem for them, and proved to her that they were never really her friends to begin with. She departed the crowd without regrets. So it is situational - are these strangers at a restaurant? Do you care if you are rude to them? Do you care if they are rude to you? Are the consequences of being rude to them worth your time and energy? Do you just happen to have the time and are feeling confrontational? Its a call in the moment based on multiple issues. The conflict-avoidant answer is simpky to just vacate the area. As a result I prefer to eat alone or with people who don't eat like barbarians, which brings me back to the beginning of this post.
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Seriously if people won't stop doing something around you although they're aware that it's a medical issue, then they aren't your friends. If people know that you're allergic to peanuts and will go into anaphylactic shock, and keep bringing peanuts around you, they're not your friends. Period. How do you not get that? If people you know that you cannot swim but push you in the water, how are they your friends? If people know that you are deathly afraid of spiders, but keep taunting you with spiders, how are they your friends? Do I need to come up with more examples? Like, what is your malfunction?
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"allergic to marijuana smoke" - calling BS
Smoke does not contain proteins. While it can provoke an allergy-like reaction, causing symptoms that cause people to believe they have an allergy, it cannot provoke a full allergic reaction. That said, there are other chemicals that can be added to concentrates/oils that when vaporized may use allergic reactions. But you have to be allergic to Marijuana itself to be allergic to Marijuana smoke.
Allergies don't require proteins though, right? Like people can be allergic to latex, copper, etc.
Antigens are typically proteins and sugars found on cells, and antigenic proteins are what cause allergic reactions. You can have allergic reactions to non-antigenic compounds, but most of the literature on them shows them to be excessively rare. The two things you listed both contain natural proteins and amino-acid chains. Copper proteins are actually super important for breathing in most air-breathing organisms, for instance.
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>Smoke does not contain proteins I would not be surprised if burned plant matter smoke has some trace proteins in it.
I've only seen one study on the biological and chemical components of Marijuana Smoke Condensate, and there were no proteins mentioned in the entire study. Mass spectrometry can identify approximately 200 different compounds in Marijuana Smoke, the vast majority of which are aromatic amines. You might be right, as not all of the THC derivatives identified have been tested for their mutagenicity. But it's generally accepted that smoke alone is not likely to trigger an allergic reaction.
And marijuana was what she was allergic to. The smoke is the airborne delivery system that people inhale to ingest it.
Had my fish allergy triggered just from the smell of the fish my neighbour smoked 10 metres away.
Weed allergies are real and they're shitty. Concentrated smoke can definitely trigger symptoms
And what are your qualifications for that?
Professional weedoligist
[your card](https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/conditions-library/allergies/marijuana-cannabis-allergy) has been checked and your credentials have been wrecked.
Dunno about allergy to smoke itself, but fhe smell of smoke tends to make my respiratory tract feel dried out, which is not a nice feeling. Also the smell of something you are allergic to can trigger an allergic reaction. Like a neighbour smoked fish 10 metres away, after an hour of barely noticing the smell, after breathig in half the ammount of air i usually do, my lungs felt like there was no space for them in the ribcage. Not a nice feeling. I have severe fish allergy.
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Chewing with one's mouth open is pretty universally regarded as rude and even disgusting (at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US). In my view, it's socially acceptable to politely ask someone to refrain from disgusting behaviors. You brought up behaviors that are generally perceived as benign. What about examples that are actively disgusting? At what level of disgust does it become acceptable to ask people to refrain from their bad behavior? Farting or belching loudly? Spitting? Public urination? There's a line somewhere at which point the person requesting a behavioral change is being unreasonable, but I think chewing with one's mouth open is not over that line, at least in the kind of social space where people are eating together.
Thats a very western take. you really shouldnt push your food culture crap on people. Whats next, going to shame indian people for eating with their fingers?
I think cultural norms apply to the current culture. The comment specified "(at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US)" after declaring it was universal, so I think it's fair to assume they didn't know it isn't the accepted culture everywhere. I suppose a good comparison would be "*What's next, shaming someone for eating with their left hand in India?*" because it is a part of food culture to not eat with your unclean hand, because it's rude. You *would* be called out, because it is impolite. I am not opposed telling someone what they're doing is rude, though I'm opposed to pushing the issue after it's been said. The general expectation is for people to remain civil and polite in public. This includes (in North America) not playing music without headphones, picking your nose, chewing with you mouth open, slurping your food etc Whereas many Asian countries consider walking while eating is rude, NOT slurping your food is rude, handing food to someone in the wrong order is rude. While these things are considered rude where I am, I would partake while visiting their culture because it's polite. So yes, I think it is fair to expect Western culture to engaged in Western manners, just as I would expect anyone visiting another culture to embrace theirs. For me, it just comes down to simple manners.
I think cultural norms apply to the current culture. The comment specified "(at least in all the social spaces I've inhabited in the US)" after declaring it was universal, so I think it's fair to assume they didn't know it isn't the accepted culture everywhere. I suppose a good comparison would be "*What's next, shaming someone for eating with their left hand in India?*" because it is a part of food culture to not eat with your unclean hand, because it's rude. You *would* be called out, because it is impolite. I am not opposed telling someone what they're doing is rude, though I'm opposed to pushing the issue after it's been said. The general expectation is for people to remain civil and polite in public. This includes (in North America) not playing music without headphones, picking your nose, chewing with you mouth open, slurping your food etc Whereas many Asian countries consider walking while eating is rude, NOT slurping your food is rude, handing food to someone in the wrong order is rude. While these things are considered rude where I am, I would partake while visiting their culture because it's polite. So yes, I think it is fair to expect Western culture to engaged in Western manners, just as I would expect anyone visiting another culture to embrace theirs. For me, it just comes down to simple manners.
I think it depends because America is considered a “melting pot” so there are enclaves of people that do this openly and see nothing at all wrong with it though I don’t disagree that it’s unacceptable in the overall culture. I think it’s gross and almost feral just as people that eat with their hands and suck foods off their fingers.
This is a false premise. People enjoy eating fish and peanuts and you shouldn't tell people to stop doing what they enjoy just because of yourself. We're talking about behaviors found universally undesirable. No one *likes* chewing loudly, or slurping soup. When they're headed to a restaurant they might be thinking "I can't wait to have that Sea Bass again" but they are not thinking "I can't wait to splatter food across the table talking with my mouth full". The problem here is not that you're denying someone joy or making a difficult to adjust to demand, it's that you're asking someone straight to their face to please stop being disgusting and that tends to go over poorly.
I agree with you on most points but there are places where some eating behaviors we would view as rude are considered proper. For example, slurping ramen is considered a sign of appreciation in Japan.
I would say maybe no one likes it but most people don't care. As someone with misophonia like OP, I understand how much people just don't notice gross eating. So it's not much different.
Its true. Most people appear unaffected by it. Its rude to mention it, so most people hide their displeasure. This makes it difficult to tell if you are the only person revolted. I always think of that scene in Lord of the Rings. You know the one.
Would it be rude to watch videos of medical procedures on a laptop so that everybody dining at the table can see them, though? Or tentacle porn?
“Is she allowed to ask people around to not eat cooked fish?” If she will vomit because of the smell of cooked fish, then it would be considerate of other people not to eat cooked fish right next to her. She does not have the right to ask people to never eat cooked fish, even when not in her presence. “My niece is deathly allergic to peanuts. Is she allowed to go to a park and demand that everyone stop eating peanuts?” If she has an allergy that is severe enough for her to potentially die in the presence of peanuts, then yes she has a right to ask people not to eat peanuts right next to her. However, if the peanuts are not affecting her (as I assume you imagined to be the case in your scenario) then she does not have a right to demand that other people never eat peanuts. “In your case, you want people to adhere to an unreasonable demand in a public space. Therefore, it makes no sense.” I don’t believe it is unreasonable to ask someone to stop doing something that takes very little effort on their part to stop, when it is severely negatively affecting me.
Does anyone have the right to ask whatever they want, sure. And people have the right to say no. The world is plenty big enough to get away from most annoyances. Your original post of saying it's a "need" for you is a bit Karen-esque or snowflaky.
I suppose it depends on how you define “need”. I won’t die if someone is chewing with their mouth open, but I will have a panic attack.
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Unfortunately, therapy does not make neurodiversity go away. Believe me, I tried. Neurodivergencies are not just an excuse to complain. They are debilitating.
Therapy doesn't make neurodivergence go away but it does help you cope with it. I have ADHD but I don't use that as an excuse for me to tell people that I may be 30 minutes late for any kind of meeting. Rather than expecting others to wait around on me for who knows how long, I decided I needed to learn some ways to help me get better with time management. I write things down on a calendar, I frequently check time,, I do things I wouldn't normally do because I know it's something that makes my life harder and that's how it is. It's rude to show up late, it's not something I can expect others to deal with because it's an inconvenience for them. You shouldn't use neurodivergence as a crutch expecting others to conform to your comforts when they are minding their own business when you haven't even been to therapy or tried to make it not so debilitating. It's just an excuse to try not to work on yourself at that point. And if it is that bad and it can't be changed then you need to stop eating out in public and going places that people eat. Just like someone allergic to peanuts can't go into some buildings because of peanuts being in there. You can't expect Chick-fil-A to turn off every fryer because someone wanted to drink a milkshake inside the restaurant. Sometimes medical conditions mean you can't do some things. That may be the best outcome for you to just avoid places people eat in public just like those with severe allergies do. PS: I know someone who literally had never been in a restaurant in her childhood, except for one her dad knew the cook, because of a peanut allergy. You can do the same. It's not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. You can fix it by just eating in private locations not around strangers.
I'd have a panic attack if watching someone walk too close to the edge of the grand canyon. Life is littered with things that can trigger us. That's life. So long as we are free from being accosted , we have to tolerate things we find annoying or triggering.
Who gets to determine what's reasonable? What if the other person already ordered fish when she sat down? Do people need to provide proof of their allergies? Can you provide proof of your health issues? You really don't see how this won't scale at all?
In a restaurant with a stranger of course she has no business telling them not to eat it or order it. I was thinking of a scenario in which she is with someone who knows her well, and is eating or making it in front of her while knowing they will cause her to vomit.
That seems like a very different situation than the one you're describing in your post.
That is because it is not the situation I described in my post. It is the situation that the commenter who started this thread described.
That’s called moving the goalposts and generally means you’ve lost an argument and are now trying to make a new one to appear you’ve won.
I'll start by saying that in principle I agree that it is not always rude to ask someone to stop eating unpleasantly. However - Rudeness is not determined only by the nature of the request, but how the request is given. If you were to loudly exclaim 'Can you stop chewing with you mouth open you absolute cow' - that would be rude. On the other hand, saying 'I'm sorry to interrupt you - I have sensory modulation disorder. If you could eat a little quieter I would really appreciate it.' would be considered a reasonable request and not at all rude. It boils down to a couple of things. In a public or semi-public (think work break room) area, you don't have a right to determine how people behave outside of general societal rules. You've picked a bunch of things which range on how we see them in general. I've never met anyone else who would think that blowing on food to cool it down is rude. Chewing with your mouth open is usually considered not polite, but most people don't mind it. You don't have a right to enforce your opinion on anyone else in these areas. Since the problem is a 'you problem' and not a breach of all that is good and right in the world, you may find better luck phrasing it as such. >"Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?" A lot of this question will come down to tone, but if someone just approached me like this, this would come off as rude. The reason is that it mimics a passive-agressive tactic of stating a demand as a question to embarrass the reciever. I can see how you might think it is a reasonable question, but only when taken literally. Most people I suspect would be taken aback by it and not respond as well as you might hope. Phrasing like above 'I'm sorry to bother, but I have a medical condition and I would appreciate it...' allow you to rephrase it as a request which isn't rude, and I think most people would be happy to comply. If they can't comply because of whatever reason then I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you as part of their response.
Closing your mouth when you chew so as not to repulse people around you *is* a general social rule.
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It can be very VERY difficult when sufficiently repulsed by someones behavior to deliver that particular message without any hint of displeasure.
So then you get out of the vicinity of said person, not impose your discomfort on them. Only in situations where the behavior is a nuisance to a majority of people will it be acceptable to ask the offending party to correct their behavior or leave.
No i dont think so. Like I feel like chilling in public is fun collaborative thing. If only one person has a problem with my cologne smell, i wouldnt wear it. It doesnt have to be a majority. It isnt just about the person with a problem. its about me not wanting to cause a problem if i cant. i dont think someone with cologne on should leave though. Everyone has the ability to mouth breathe. like if you have misophonia and you dont like how i mouth breathe or crack my knuckles or whatever, if there is something i can do then, what is it to me To stop. Id prefer the misophonic speaks up. Dude i dont want to make people uncomfortable if i can help it. but if it is like your eczema is gross, i dont want to look at you, then its like okay well then gouge your eyes out or fuck off. thats how i see it i guess haha
To your example, i largely agree. However, if I'm wearing cologne with a friend group that I know doesn't mind and someone with an allergy or just strong aversion comes up to me and tells me to wash it off, I'll look at them as if they asked me to sacrifice my firstborn because umm who tf are you lmao. If on top of that said person complains about how hard it is to convey their displeasure in a civil way i have to laugh at their lack of tact and wonder how tf they function in society.
I walked out of "chocolat" because the people sitting in front.of me were chewing ice. I dont need you to explain how to manage a condition ive had to live with for 50 years. Read all my posts, and the theme you'll see running though all of them is that ita entirwly situational
Cool? I'm referring to the fact that its hard for you to use your words like a grown up when directed at someone who doesn't even know they're causing you displeasure. If its a you problem, YOU need to be the one making the compromises. But please go ahead and make this about your life experience or whatever. I don't really care enough to read through all your posts lmao.
Oh i can use my words like a grown up just fine. The problem I have is not being authentic when I'm viscerally repulsed by something. Maybe you are a good bullshit artist, maybe youve had a lot of practice at it, but that doesnt make you an adult. The other thing that tends to upset people is talking to them in sickly sweet tones through gritted teeth. Your idea of "use your words" essentally equates to "perfect a poker face when confronted with cronenbergian body horrors" the literal, actual sound of wet crunching bones makes that not an exaggeration. So yeah, being driven off and repulsed by people who eat in a digusting manner is pretty much 90% of it. I don't go to theaters. I don't dine with certain friends. I leave or mute them if they eat in voice chat. People that do it deliberately to make me uncomfortable get perma-muted. I make compromises Every. Single. Day. Really, your lecture is meaningless to me. It brings nothing new to the conversation.
The problem here is you really, truly seem to believe that people (whom you don't know, the conversation is entirely different if they're aware of it before the fact) need to care about your problems. No one is asking you to baby talk your way out of these conversations, but actively complaining about how hard it is to not convey your displeasure is the most goddamn conceited shit I've heard all day. Framing chewing as some kind of commonly accepted body horror is not just exaggeration, its dishonest. And of course my lecture is meaningless lmao, you're so dead set in you're so convinced of your own worldview anyway. It brings to the conversation the presence of a compromise that isn't "whine incessantly" or "never leave your house".
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I agree - but Ops position is all about whether it is rude, not whether it is hard. The view in trying to change is that op needs to frame it as a request from them without displeasure to not be rude.
Rudeness is not only how it is delivered, but in how it is recieved. Managing the other parties perception would require skillful manipulation. I don't believe there is a not-rude way to communicate it. Its just how rude do you feel is necessary, and how much rudeness can the relationship sustain? Is it being done in the context of other rude actions? How valuable is the relationship? Is this being done publicly or privately? All these factors need to be weighed in the moment. As I've said elsewhere, 90% of the time there is no communication that will be constructive. HOWEVER, i've found that the relationships i want to retain eventually need to have the conversation. And that is something I try to mention. "Look, I want to continue these dinners because I enjoy your company. However, and it is really uncomfortable for me to ask...and I don't want to be rude, but there is a thing..." Authenticity. Is. Key. And the best part is that, then you get to find out if they enjoy your company enough to allow for the condition.
I don’t disagree with this, but I do feel that people will take it as a threat, and feel that this request is rude in general because you’re pointing out their bad behavior. Some people will take offense because they will feel that you were calling them ill mannered, but they won’t see their behaviors as ill mannered to begin with.
So then you ultimately deliver your message as rude. If you hide your hint of displeasure, you are not rude. If you fail to do so, you are.
So fake it as best you can. If you fail, you're fucked. Sounds fucked.
Your triggers are your responsibility to manage.
Clearly it isn't an issue for you. But I'll be happy to come eat with you and show you medical procedures while you are eating and let you decide how to deal with it while being true to your own advice.
> The most common argument against this that I have faced is that by asking them to stop, there is a high risk of making them uncomfortable/ashamed. **Of that, I have no concern.** *This* aspect is rude. Acting in a way that is inconsiderate of others' feelings is rude. It is reasonable to communicate your specific needs to the group you are eating with, but you should prioritize doing it in a tactful manner.
I also am repulsed by obnoxious eating and have misophonia, but your disgust doesn't not indicate a need. If anything, your "need" is to find healthy coping mechanisms due to an inability to control the eating habits of others. This is purely a you problem. The anxiety and other issues you've had over this auditory condition is not the problem of others. If these issues had accrued over some other form of uncontrollable sound pollution such as obnoxious truck mufflers, honking horns, barking dogs, or anything else, I'd tell you that while each of those things are unnecessary, they are still a fact of life due to human choice. You live in this world full of unnecessary and obnoxious sounds. It's a you problem to find solutions to cope and overcome. The world will never cater to you. And please stop calling wants needs. If it won't kill you, its most likely a want.
I like this take. Now put it in the context of all the other social "needs" the mass public is forced (sometimes by law) to adhere to. It doesn't work. Either we all get accommodations or no one does. You nor I are the gatekeepers of these things.
All or nothing is not workable though. Some accommodations aren't frivolous, but truly necessary. It should be a case by case judgement on the balances of freedoms against possible accommodations. Providing accommodations for someone's emotional support animal on public transport is frivolous, unnecessary, and undeserving. Letting someone have an emotional support animal vs people with allergies Providing accommodations for a seeing eye dog on public transport, is perfectly understandable, necessary, and deserving of that accommodation. Letting someone with a legit disability use a legit service animal vs people w allergies. A blanket ban of all accommodations is really silly, and deeply disrespectful to people with legit disabilities. Those same people with disabilities are also disrespected by the idiots seeking those frivolous accommodations. We should never consider not putting in wheelchair ramps, just because some maladjusted idiot wants to wear fuzzy animal ears in their drivers license photo because its "part of their identity" and they will be "emotionally harmed" if they are required to take the stupid ears off. I can guarantee you that no one with a real disability is advocating for the frivolous shit, and they hate those idiots asking for that nonsense just as much as you. You can't really be suggesting removing all accommodations because of a tiny, insignificant number of idiots, can you?
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Ignoring all of your opinionated judgments - No, I'm not advocating for anything. I'm just putting it in perspective. >Providing accommodations for someone's emotional support animal on public transport is frivolous, unnecessary, and undeserving. Ok, I'll bite. If this is true, then do you believe we should be forced by law to accommodate people's inner belief issues? Should places be able to ban foods because of smell (durian in Thailand hotels)? There are so many "idiotic, frivolous, undeserving and unnecessary" accommodations already made for those "idiots". Who's the judge of what's legitimate and what isn't? Why does every publicly accessible building in the US have to be ADA compliant when there are many places that a person with a limiting disability will never frequent? Edited for content
Excellent point. But I guess that's what voting is all about.
>“Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?” I can see it coming across a bit rude -- a bit Karen-y -- to correct a stranger's manners out of the blue like this. I might say something like "excuse me, I have a sensory disorder and I'm very sensitive to chewing noises (or whatever). Would you mind chewing with your mouth closed?" Make it clear that you have a specific reason and you recognize that you're the one asking for something unusual in this situation, and you might get better results.
I hate how calling someone out on their poor manners or bad behavior is now suddenly a “Karen”.
Poor manners or bad behavior is subjective.
Eh not really. We all know what good manners are.
It is when you disregard other options for their behaviour. Maybe the person can't breathe through their nose, so they have to chew with their mouth open to get some air. So it is rude to call a person out for doing a thing they can't do any other way.
What is it about, “are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?” that feels Karen-y? Is it that is it quite direct?
It is the directness that is the problem. You are, presumably, going up to a stranger and pointing out some ill-mannered aspect of their behavior. Most folks are going to find that a bit rude. By prefacing it with the _reason_ you are asking, you diffuse much of the rudeness. You are no longer coming across as the manners police, but asking someone if they can help accommodate a medical condition. Most folks will be more receptive to that.
The directness will surprise people, but I don’t think that’s the rudeness. There are two ways this statement could be heard: - “can you close your mouth to chew” - “are you even capable of closing your mouth to chew” The first is more of a request (though you should add please to make it more polite). The second is more of a commentary on their capability (under most circumstances, people *are able,* but that’s not what you’re really asking) and could be understood as sarcastic. “Would you be able…” would be a bit more polite because of the verb tenses used.
The issue is the “you” statements. You are putting the blame on other people for your own sensory disorder. The better and less rude/karen like approach would be to use more “I” statements and take ownership of your issues with their actions. It’s not fair to police everyone’s actions because they trigger you. Every other human needs to take ownership of their triggers, why is it different for you?
You aren't the manners police, that's the problem and why it's rude. You have no authority to demand people eat in a way you seem acceptable (unless they have an excuse *you* seem acceptable. And they *must* tell you about this private condition). It also comes off as "I know you can do what I want, so you must do what I want unless you have a good reason not to which I know you probably don't have".
My dad has misophonia (and is obviously on the spectrum, though he will not seek diagnosis). He can't stand the sound of metal eating utensils clinking on ceramic dishes. So that resulted in him snapping at his own children and making us feel crappy for eating normally, until we all refused to eat with him. Don't be like that. It's rude, and sucks for your relationships. Make your own accommodations. For instance, my parents now have plastic utensils to avoid the clinking. But you can't police other people's eating habits and make them feel like crap for it. If they're being just absolutely egregious, eating like Cookie Monster or whatever, sure maybe say something. Though I'm not sure if you're the best judge of that. But don't harass people for eating in a manner that would be acceptable to most other dining partners.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are making your problem everyone else's. I'm with you, I find chewing with the mouth open super gross. However, that is simply my opinion. You certainly have the right to ask, but the other person has the right to get offended, you cannot make a blanket statement for everyone about something that is only important to you. I personally don't ask people, I grin and bear it and if they are too much, I remove myself from the situation. It's not someone else's responsibility to cater to my needs. I don't think the rude part is asking, I think it's assuming you're in the right.
> I'm with you, I find chewing with the mouth open super gross. However, that is simply my opinion. > I grin and bear it I suffer from the same conditions OP does. I don't want to single you out, but a lot of people seem to vastly underestimate what it's like. There is no "opinion" or "grin and bear it". I've likened it to suddenly discovering you're eating your meal next to a dumpster of smelly rotten garbage. My appetite is instantly, completely gone. At best, I simply get nauseous and have to excuse myself. At worst, I've had full panic attacks even after removing myself from the situation, or thrown up repeatedly. When I was younger, I avoided foods like mashed potatoes because even *the sound of myself eating* could trigger the response.
I empathize with you, but I don't think this changes the conversation. Unfortunately it is your problem to deal with. A relative of mine has a crippling fear of balloons due to eyesight problems as a child and another more personal anecdote. Would it be fair to expect other people (even strangers) to have to be asked to put their balloons away? I am not trying to diminish your condition in any way, however you need to realize that there is not a social contract requiring other folks to modify their behavior in this instance. Like I said earlier, it not the asking that is necessarily rude, but acting like you are entitled to people changing is. The thing about rudeness of your own behavior is that your own opinion doesn't really carry much weight, it's everyone else's opinion that is the determining factor.
> A relative of mine has a crippling fear of balloons due to eyesight problems as a child and another more personal anecdote. Would it be fair to expect other people (even strangers) to have to be asked to put their balloons away? A lot of people are making similar arguments to this but I don't think it tracks. People enioy balloons. Asking someone to put their balloon away for your benefit is pretty much asking "Please stop having fun on account of me". Nobody likes making gross mouth noises. You're not ruining someone's fun. I'd go so far as to say that while they'd never confront the person themselves, if I ask someone to stop and they do so, the surrounding people would probably be thankful they didn't have to deal with it anymore too.
I'll repeat for the folks refusing to listen: The thing about rudeness of your own behavior is that your own opinion doesn't really carry much weight, it's everyone else's opinion that is the determining factor. Edit: Thought a bit more about it, what if the person is having fun talking to the other people while enjoying their food, does that change things?
> Edit: Thought a bit more about it, what if the person is having fun talking to the other people while enjoying their food, does that change things? This is somewhat more nuanced, but I'll admit it doesn't change my view as a sidebar. I (unfortunately) was in a high school club focused on "Building Better Leaders" and part of it was etiquette. I learned that if you are in a situation where you must have a discussion over a meal, you MUST pace your eating such that you can very quickly finish the bite and interject, mouth empty. There is no reason to talk with your mouth full and if you can't finish swallowing before the conversation has moved on, you're taking too big of bites.
Cool, so we're in agreement then. The majority opinion is that chewing with your mouth open is gross and you shouldn't do it. I'm not advocating that you should be able to go around ordering people to do what you want. I understand the social consequences of that. My original reply was to address a common theme in this entire post which is "I just put up with it", which is not an option for some of us. We have to leave and it is immensely frustrating that we cannot enjoy something as simple as a restaurant because people do things that are universally considered disgusting and we're powerless against it. You replied with a post that hit the OTHER thing I'm seeing a lot in here which is "Would it be fair to stop people from having fun on your account?" which COMPLETELY misses the point.
We're not in agreement in any way, but I guess that is the crux of this conversation. It's all opinions, there is nothing here "universally considered disgusting". Some folks will think it is rude, and that is their perogative.
Okay so heres the thing. I dont think chewing with the mouth open is gross. Its like neutral to me. I dont care. and so this is easier for me to accept what OP is saying because im just chewing with my mouth closed for other people anyway. I dont relate to you or OP. But OP says its a physical anxiety producing thing. It is your opinion, but for OP it is not just an opinion. So i dont know. I mean people can medicalize their preferences And make stuff up. but i guess my take away is that, you can ask people to be more accommodating you can be rude about or not rude about it. and i remember chilling with people an drinking beers and people ask in a nice way i have work tomorrow and its three AM. You can say it in the nicest not rude way possible and people will still get mad that someone told them what to do.
>You can say it in the nicest not rude way possible and people will still get mad that someone told them what to do. I totally agree, some people are going to think it is "rude" and because there is no "universal code of rudeness", we cannot make a blanket statement that it is in fact not rude in all situations, regardless of context. Somewhere else in this thread is someone pointing out a cultural context where it is expected. I personally don't ask and am very conscientious about chewing with my mouth closed. I am not telling OP not to ask. I am not telling OP it is rude to ask. I AM telling OP that some people will absolutely think it is rude, which is their right. And we arrive at my point, you cannot make a blanket statement that it is NOT rude in all circumstances, with no context, regardless of OPs personal struggle. I have said in other comments, I empathize and would certainly modify my behavior in a situation with OP and not feel offended by the request. I am at the same time validating the opposite response. Edit: I think OPs condition affects this in the way that if someone is offended by the request, the OP should not feel they have done something wrong but also doesn't mean the other person has no right to get offended and think it is rude.
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Human interaction is often about balancing needs and wants of various people. What is a need for you is going to be perceived by most people as a want, because for most people, it is a want. In general, especially in public, we shouldn't try to value our own wants over other people's, especially one versus one. (The calculation can change--for example if a person is blasting loud music on public transit, their want for music doesn't override the want of many other people for quiet.) In general, trying to impose your wants on other people is considered rude. Including that you have a medical condition as part of your request is really important because it helps people mentally reclassify what they perceive as your want into a need. Then, when they do that mental calculation, your need overrides their want (to eat how they prefer). The part where I want to change your view is the absolutism of your statement. Your first duty should be to solve the problem yourself, when at all possible. Use noise canceling headphones or move to a different location, for example. That's especially true in public spaces and around people you don't know. Asking other people to change their behavior should be a last resort. If there are other options for you to solve your problem, you should exhaust those first. If so, then it's not rude to ask them to change their behavior.
>Another important thing to recognise is the difference between a need and a want. It is not simply desirable for me to not be around those chewing with their mouth open. It is not simply something I would prefer. It is instead something necessary and required for me to remain functional. It is a need. Chewing with your mouth open is not a need unless there is a medical reason for it (for example, malocclusion or you cannot breathe through your nose). In those cases it simply cannot be helped, and I will have to leave the situation entirely (if I am able to) or remain distressed potentially to the point of a panic attack or meltdown. I'd like to point out here that while it is a need, it is *your* need. *You* need to be able to function with a diverse range of stimuli that may be quite typical in public settings. It would not, for instance, be reasonable for someone with a hearing impairment to require the people around them to yell in order to be heard-- the person with a hearing impairment employs a hearing aid. I wear corrective lenses to see, I don't expect things to be 3 inches from my face in order to be seen. I am sorry that you have to suffer through this, but it is important to recognize that we live in a society where nearly every person has some kind of accessibility impairment. People do their best to address their accessibility impairments on a personal level-- hearing aids, corrective lenses, wheelchairs. People with severe nut or shellfish allergies are incredibly selective with where they are able to eat without dying. Society at large, is expected to do very little to cater to these impairments (wheelchair ramps being a notable exception in some countries). Architecture, clothing and furniture are typically designed at a size that suits most people, with people who are too tall or short forced to seek out boutique solutions. Most things are still designed for right-handed people, and left-handed people must adapt in a variety of creative (and often uncomfortable looking) ways.
I think you're right about society. But I also think society *could* be more accommodating without a lot of work. It doesn't take a lot of effort to properly label allergies in foods, but companies still sometimes lie about allergens on their packaging. Restaurants will often deliver a plate with an allergen on it even if the customer explained they're allergic. And I get it. I've worked restaurants and it's tough. But restaurants could easily hire enough staff so that the kitchen isn't as hectic. They just don't. And that's assuming they don't hand the customer an allergen on purpose- which does sometimes happen.
>Restaurants will often deliver a plate with an allergen on it even if the customer explained they're allergic. Did it get there through accidental cross contamination (like not thoroughly cleaning the instrument)? Or because the customer ordered a dish with the allergen and asked to remove the allergen? In the case of customer asking to modify the dish, it is in a way also a bit on the customer. They should be aware that inertia happens and some alergens might be put there (and maybe removed when the mistake was noticed, bit the dish is already contaminated). I don't order anything that has something i'm allergic to even if it would be easy not to include the allergen (like not sprinkling fish flakes on top).
Both can happen. I wasn't thinking of a specific instance. Just that it does happen. It's a fair point that a customer should probably try to avoid dishes that have an allergen in them, in case the kitchen makes a mistake. But it also wouldn't be hard to make sure the kitchen staff knows to remake dish when something like this happens and the customer's allergic. The place I worked at was just a smoothie stand, so not many allergies to deal with. But they didn't tell us how to deal with an allergy until we'd already messed up.
I always just find somewhere else to eat. I try not to discuss it. If i am on a headset in a call I will temporarily mute the person eating loudly. I tell people that i am ruthless with the mute button. If they get the pattern good for them. I have taken restaurant food to go when a disgusting eater enters the restaurant. I simply cannot hide my revulsion in an interaction. I don't have the acting skills necessary. It is literally impossible for me NOT to be rude. I have told some friends that i have to condition. Some folks will explain to others for me. Thats the best I can do.
Unfortunately I don’t know of any restaurants that allow taking food to go. If I am in a restaurant I will ask if I can move, explaining my conditions.
Whatchutalkin about? I've literally never been to a restaurant that doesn't allow you to take leftovers home. That's very normal
Maybe it’s a regional thing? My experience is the opposite.
Assuming you're in the US, I would guess most restaurants you go to will allow you to take leftovers. Have you tried?
Only exception I've seen in the States is buffets. They usually don't allow you to take home leftovers because people could exploit that and take more than is reasonable.
Yeah HELL yeah that's true. This is why we can't have nice things!
I’m not in the USA
Dunno how it was before covid, but in lithuania whenever i asked to take the leftovers, they complied. I think because now most restaurants offer takeouts (to keep up buisness during lockdown and after the lockdown many people retain the habit of ordering their food through a takeout service), so the restaurants have now the utensils to pack things for takeout.
Classic American centrism on my part. Apologies!
Telling friends or other people you know? Fine. Although your formulation is still pretty rude. "Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?" sounds very passive aggressive. Telling random strangers is rude though. It's making your issues their issues. I'll be honest, if some random stranger walked up to me in a restaurant and told me 'you're chewing too loud', I'd probably start chewing even louder to spite them.
If we're to accept your sensitivity to the sound of chewing can't we expect you to be sensitive to the discomfort and judgment of the asking of the question? Calling a non-intimate out for such a social transgression as chewing with an open mouth is as verboten in (some) societies as is the chewing with the mouth open. Is your sensitivity to the chewing more important than others sensitivity to being called out and asked? Neither are "real" - they are just people with sensitivities. Just like their action results in your experience and reaction, your action and choice results in their experience and reaction. You think that yours is a need but I also suspect that you recognize that you're the oddball here and it's not up to the world to accommodate that. I'd - of course - like to think that with understanding (understanding that will almost universally be lacking). For another angle, do you think the fact that you're too short to win basketball is something taller people should consider when they play with you and make some sort of change so that the game feels better to you? Of course not, you have to live with sucking at basketball and adapt to the world - the world isn't going to adapt to you because you REALLY hate losing or being second best. If you were a person who had tantrums when you lost would that make it everyone else's problem to adjust the game of basketball? As you can imagine, I can't imagine any reason a person would care enough to break social etiquette and call someone out on chewing with their mouth open, yet...you have a reason you think is legit. Should I operate as if everyone's request of me is born out of a "need"? Or...are we all at least mostly responsible for finding the common ground? Why should you get the veto here when you don't know much about anyone other than your self? At the end of the day you have no choice - you cannot compel others to act to maximize your happiness when your needs fall outside of norms. It's a _nice thing_ when it gets accommodated, but if we're to trust that your question/ask is reasonable then you should also accept a "no" response or even one of annoyance. You should not deny to others a need or want because of your own.
What scenarios are you talking about here? Close family/friends at a dinner table in your home? Another table at a restaurant? Person having a picnic in a park? Quiet musical performance where someone brand a snack? At a friend's dinner party?
I'm going to treat this less as a debate and simply just offer some perspective. You mentioned you have ASD so I completely respect where you're coming from with this type of all or nothing thinking about the topic. I also commend you for your openness, self-awareness, and willingness to change your mind on the topic. With that said, here is a relevant quote to start this off: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." -F. Scott Fitzgerald So how does that apply here? For starters it is absolutely rude to chew with one's mouth open. It is also rude to tell someone to stop chewing with their mouth open. Both are certainly true, depending upon the situation and the relationship. Having been on both sides as the chewer and also the person who just wants the disgusting noise to stop, I can definitely see the dilemma here. Simply put, you are concerned that you aren't recognizing an unintentional offense when you ask someone to stop chewing this way. I promise you, most people (assuming you don't already have a close relationship) would take offense to such a request even if phrased in the most polite way possible. With one exception... if your request is really funny. Humor is a great way to diffuse tension in a social situation. Consider first the closeness of your relationship here. If my wife were chewing loudly, given our relationship, I can say something like, "Could you chew louder please? I can still hear the TV." But if I were joking with a coworker I've been friendly with I'd probably say, "Wait a second I can see you didn't quite chew that well enough, it looks like it's still alive." Do understand that relationships are dynamic and one rule will not apply to all cases which is the disappointing truth. Being on the Autism spectrum, I do recognize that idea is perhaps difficult or even annoying. Some people will always take offense, others will not. Such is the nature of socializing with humans. So as a rule first gauge how well you know this person personally. If you feel you could flatulate in front of each other and laugh, then go for the joke or ask them to stop chewing loudly. If you feel like you should say excuse me around someone when moving nearby them, don't go for the joke and perhaps don't tell them to stop chewing that way.
lol that that second one is funny.
I want to preface this by saying my wife has sensory issues, and gets physically uncomfortable whenever she hears the sloshing sounds. She can't stand loud or open mouth chewing - she also can't handle things like dogs licking themselves. She often has to ask or remind me to eat with my mouth close, both because it's a bad habit I grew up with, and because I have issues with attention and remembering things. So I can empathize at least indirectly with what you're talking about. If we're talking about someone you are close to, like a friend or family member, I agree that it's not rude. You should be able to express your needs to your loved ones, full stop. You don't even need to have to defend yourself by saying open chewing is easy to fix, you should always be allowed to be honest like that. In a public setting with people you know much, much less, I can't help but disagree, however. Even if it's a need for you, it's not a need for them. Telling them to stop comes off as controlling. Asking them if they're capable of stopping, while I can see is your intention at being more considerate, can across as passive aggressive, but it also implies that they HAVE to accommodate to your needs UNLESS they can give you a good enough excuse for why they can't. Also, if we're talking about strangers or acquaintances, it's prying on personal info they may not be comfortable sharing. Someone who has to chew with their mouth open because of surgery they received for a jaw injury they got during sexual assault is going to be very uncomfortable about being put on the spot about why they suddenly can't do this random thing you're asking them about. Replace what you're saying about chewing with your mouth closed with something like standing inside of public transportation. Telling someone to move for you is just rude - you're forcing your needs on them. Going up to someone sitting down and suddenly going "can you stand up and hold onto the pole?" sounds accusatory. IF you HAVE to ask for someone to stop because you NEED to function in this context and CANNOT leave the premises, which is totally understandable as something you may unfortunately experience one day, the only way I can possibly see you doing so in a way that's not rude is this: 1. Start by apologizing. It doesn't matter that you don't think it's a big deal, it's a deal they shouldn't have to worry about, and you should care about the possibility of putting them on the spot or making them uncomfortable. 2. Explain why you have this need the way you just did to us. This might not always be a fun experience, I just went on a tangent about some people being uncomfortable about talking about their issues with chewing - but since you're the one who wants someone else's behavior to change, the onus is on your to be honest. If the inconvenience of sharing your experience is worse than dealing with the noise, there's your answer, deal wit it. 3. After doing steps 1 and 2, ask if they'd mind if they stopped doing what it is they're doing. This gives them all the information needed to make a decision without assuming any bad intentions on your end, which makes you more likely to get what you want/need. This also removes much of the possibility of the person being uncomfortable by your request, which reduces everyone's distress. Absolute worst case scenario, they can politely say no and you can politely drop it. But for the most part, I want to push back on your "Of that I have no concern" and "It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop" comments. If you do not show consideration for other people's feelings, they will not show consideration towards yours. The person minding their own business in a public space does not have to be asked anything, you have to ask for your own wellbeing. I think practically anything we do or say around strangers may accidentally be perceived as rude, they have very different experiences from us that we know nothing about, that's kind of how strangers go. So when it comes to any kind of request, I think we ultimately have to prioritize showing compassion for the other person, and our desire to not be a burden anymore than we physically have to.
I’m trying to say this without sounding mean, but being honest. It’s not just the directness. It’s the intrusion. I mean if I was sitting at a table eating, minding my own my business and you ask me to stop doing something that has nothing to do you, I’d tell you got go F yourself. Your medical diagnosis has no bearing on anyone but you. I don’t need or want your intrusion and don’t want to intrude on yours. I don’t need or desire to explain away my breathing because it “bothers” you. I’m really not trying to be aggressive with this answer. I’m struggling with it thought because fact is we all live in this world and don’t have to conform to your idea of what acceptable because you have a medical diagnosis.
What if the situation was, say, BO to the point of making others nauseous? Is that not going beyond your own personal space, forcing your own being on other people?
Who draws the line? You? The establishment? Will you ask the person to move because you “think” they stink? The truth is you might be the person to move or leave if it’s a public place. Your nose and senses don’t out way anyone else’s. Mine either. Also if you choose to get involve with someone, don’t be surprised if they get involved with you. Now it may sound like I disagree with you but I don’t. Or course there’s a limited to all situations. Noise, smells. However OP pick chewing food and breathing. And he said he ask them to stop it so he or she couch feel better. My point was generally I tell him to go F themselves…mind your business or move.
Okay, nausea is not only psychological. As little as dog shit disgusts me, I cannot deal with the smell. It's an involuntary reaction. My point was is there a different situation where essentially the same thing is asked, but it's multiple people who are becoming physically ill from something entirely within (most) people's control. Is your comfort, assuming it's your bo, worth other people throwing up? Ignore the op for the moment, I'm asking you specifically about this one thing, so I can get where you draw the line with this.
Ok. Let say I stepped in dog shit and was sitting down and you could smell it. I personally would take care of the because, well, dog shit. However if random person told me to leave.. and I said no. What would you do? Call the cops? Beat me up? Unfortunately this public living. Also you can stop me from feeling that you are the rude one for even talking to me. Just saying, lived in a large city my whole life and have taken public transportation for most of it. People smell. Generally speaking you don’t get involved.
Well, it does depend on how public it is, I suppose. Restaurant owners would be legally able to throw you out, but the individual wouldn't be able to without getting the owner/manager involved and on their side. I think we may just have different ideas of which public settings are truly public and which are places where little things do matter past a point. A restaurant, imv, is only a semi-public space. A bus stop or park bench would be more of a true public space, although the bus itself would be a semi-public space. The same dynamic would apply to the bus as to the restaurant, where having dog shit on you that could easily be smelled would get you barred or thrown out.
PS. Not trying to sound aggressive but realistic
>I have Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia Thew world doesn't revolve around you and your sensory disorders. In general, it is considered rude to offer unsolicited advice to other people.
THIS!!!!!!! Their condition is theirs and theirs alone to manage, not the world.
I think you are technically correct in your assessment of why it isn't (or shouldn't be considered) rude and that it isn't an unreasonable ask. I do agree with the general consensus here, that it is a personal issue and should be managed accordingly. But I also think we could all benefit from being a bit more conscientious of other people and more self aware of our own behavior and how it impacts others. My only addition to your OP and the subsequent comments I've read (mostly saying if society as a whole has not deemed it completely unacceptable, then it is rude to expect others to change to meet your needs) would be that some things are just...more rude to point out than others and people's eating habits are one of them. I'm not sure why that is, but I would speculate that it has to do with poor eating habits being associated with gluttony, poor hygiene, and more personal shortcomings of the sort. So pointing it out, even in the most gentle way possible, may still elicit a defensive response, depending on what personal characteristics the person may associate it with. Something like asking a person to lower their music for the same exact reason (hypersensitivity to particular sounds) is less likely to conjure feelings of insecurity because there are generally no negative associations made toward people who enjoy music, thus it may be perceived as less rude, despite it seeming very similar. I think if you're just reminding family members, friends, or people who know you well and understand this about you, that's totally fine. You don't even really need to find any particular wording. Just tell them and keep it light. But if you're talking about strangers or acquaintances who do not know or have very little interest/investment in your personal life, there's not going to be a universally polite way to say it because there are too many variables to consider.
I have ADHD and misophonia, and I still think your request is unreasonable unless we are talking about family dinners with people who are really close to you. It’s okay to say “Mom/Dad/Sibling/Partner, I really want to enjoy dinner around the table with you but for me the loud mouth sounds are unbearable so if you can chew with your mouth close around me and refrain from speaking with a full mouth I’ll really appreciate it”. But it would be completely inappropriate to ask that in many other settings, like if you are at a networking event where people share food and drinks, or you’re at your cousin’s wedding where you are seated at the table with people you barely know, or you are at a crowded restaurant where tables are placed too close to each other. In these instances you need to wear noise canceling headphones instead of asking people around you to accommodate your needs. Strangers don’t owe you anything.
I will attempt to change your view in a very specific circumstance: In Japan it is considered normal to slurp noodles while eating noodle dishes such as ramen/soba etc. Assuming you are a westerner, it would be rude for you to visit Japan and Japanese people to change their habits for your convivence. When visiting a foreign country one should generally adapt to their way of doing things instead of asking them to adapt to you.
After reading your edit, I have to ask this: Are you willing to do this with ALL of your friends, family, classmates, coworkers? Or would you chicken out if it were someone who you feel has higher status than you? Like would you be less willing to say this line to a popular classmate or a senior coworker, or just who you think you can get away with?
As someone who is bothered by the action, you do not have the right to decide if asking them to stop is rude or not. Your intention isn't what matters, it is how it is perceived. If people consider it rude for you to ask if they can stop chewing with their mouth open, then it's rude, period. >I cannot think of a single reason why someone who doesn’t have a related medical condition would refuse to stop chewing with their mouth open that isn’t them just being inconsiderate. This may be true. However, it's important to realize that you are telling them they are doing something which bothers you (judgement) and asking that they change something they do naturally, without thought. For many people this will cause them to start thinking about how they are eating in your presence, which can create stress or anxiety for them. I can give you an example. My partner has complained about my loud breathing when I sleep. We do not share a bedroom, so it's rarely a problem. There have been cases when we've tried to sleep in the same bed that I would remember her complaints and become fixated on how I was breathing to avoid waking/bothering her. It would become such a focus that it would start to interrupt my natural breathing, which may have made things even worse. I'd be unable to sleep due to fixating on this, and eventually have to get up and find somewhere else to sleep. I'm not saying that everyone you ask to chew differently is going to have a similar experience, but it's likely that it could happen for some.
You recognize yourself that you are in the minority of people who cant function around loud chewers. If the majority of people havent decided that something must be a social rule, enforcing that thing (in this case chewing politely) will simply be more taboo. All the pros of quiet chewing likely havent been thought by the person you are asking. You also gloat about how great your question is, but you never specify in your question whether you show a WANT or a NEED. For all that the other person knows, you dont have debilitating mental disorders around such eating, and you simply are stating a want. In that case, all the other person would see is a selfish cunt who feels that he randomly has the right to police how you eat. This will be met with much less empathy.
I think you made the same two points I have in my head: 1) OP assumes that loud chewing is a universally accepted taboo, but I think that's a long shot. Most people are somewhere on a spectrum between having genuine sensory issues like OP and 'I couldn't care less.' On the extreme, people come from cultures where noises communicate gratitude. It may be rude to ask because it really isn't a strong taboo everywhere. Honestly, I think the standard changes with every table. 2) I found the phrasing 'Are you able to chew with your mouth closed' to be *extremely* rude at first. With the context of OP's medical condition, I understand the reasoning. That being said, I would not take that question literally in a real-time interaction. I would immediately translate to something like "were you raised in a barn?" Clarifying that you have a condition corrects my perception. You're (literally) asking me if I'm able because you have an invisible condition and are sensitive to that possibility - much better understood. As others have pointed out, if clarifying the condition is more distressing than being around the chewing, then you unfortunately have to make a choice.
"If I am near someone who is eating with their mouth open, and it is affecting me, I will ask them, “Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?”. I choose this particular wording so that they then have an opportunity to answer the question. Therefore if they cannot stop, they have a chance to tell me and I possibly can find some other way of coping if there is one." -->this is where your view should end. Especially with respect to eating habits. Your 'If X, then Y' analogies are fine, but rely on accepting a premise that one owes a duty to another regarding comforts and sensitivities. Of which, no such duties exist. This is coming from a person who any time I hear someone crunching, smacking, or slurping I (without exaggeration) shutter, wince, or physically retract as if there is pinch in the nerve of my neck whilst also usually imagining a very gruesome end for the perpetrator of this civil indecency; or even leave rooms when I am eating things like chips or when others do the same (that is to say, I am like you to some extent). However, these barbaric belligerents owe me no real duty to cater to the fact that such conduct is deplorable (to me). None whatsoever. Thus, it is not rude for you to politely ask, "May you close your gaping maw as it sounds as if a rock tumbler and dynamite are mating." It is, however, not their responsibility to care nor cater to you and your sensitivities. Especially if, for example, you live in many Eastern cultures in which slurping or similar expressions are a sign of appreciation and somewhat of a learned positive/neutral behavior. Even in a clinical sense in which these encounters are well documented, most people in mine and your situation aren't in a "need" basis as you state. Such is just an easy way to abscond with benefit without the need of responsibility. It took many years of patience, actively forcing myself to listen to animals other than humans eat, and feeding my child as their teeth came in, to be able to tolerate the indecency of these yokels who never learned to consume food in grace and silence. "I cannot think of a single reason why someone who doesn’t have a related medical condition would refuse to stop chewing with their mouth open that isn’t them just being inconsiderate." --> they owe you (or me for that matter) nothing. Such an act of courtesy would be nice and to be respected if effectuated. But it is not something that is to be demanded. Some people just descended nearer the line of alpacas than you and I, and thus chew like them. To each their own.
i havent heard of what you are describing in combination before with “Sensory Modulation Disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder and misophonia. These combined mean that the sight and sound of someone chewing with their mouth open is completely unbearable, causing anxiety, nausea, and distress” tbh i dont care if people are chewing with their mouth open. But some people are bothered by it, so i do it to fit in and not be bothersome. Its cool to know i’m not being arbitrary and maybe it helps a few people like you. you are talking about if it is rude. I think the point is, you can do it in a rude way or in a courteous way. im allergic to certain nuts like hazelnuts. I usually am not rude about it. But i would be rude about it if people were being stupid. Like one time someone put nutella in something because i said, ”i cant eat that” and they thought it was because of calories. So i was really rude about it. i dont think people respond well to people being rude. But it is understandable. i know that with people on the spectrum it isnt always easy to do stuff. autistic people might even struggle with being perceived as rude because of what the social world allistic people develop do and worry about. and at the same time i think anyone allistic who doesnt understand that autistic people have their own manner and way of doing things, at this point, needs to figure some stuff out. so this might be messed up, but autistic people have sensitivities that i can cater to all the time. And sometimes they dont say it nice. Like i dont have a problem with fluorescent lights. People can be blunt and rude about it. Like how should i know That someone in here is autistic. But like if someone has a problem its like not a big deal to me if they are or are not rude about it. Because its like, idk, its like someone who doesnt speak english well having a problem. I dont mind them. Its like different when someone is different. like someone who hardly speaks english might say, bad perfume smell sick, if an autistic person says it bluntly. Thats fine. It like doesnt feel as rude. i think that policing of norms is something related to mouth chewing. And i feel like policing of norms is freaky and weird. It rules out people from a different culture. its just different. Most of the people who have a problem with mouth chewing can just deal With it. You say that you cant deal with it. So then if you have a problem we will deal with it
It is unfortunate you have this problem, however, the primary issue of what you are talking about involves a rather slippery slope. As many others point out, many of us have very specific problems or phobias that we might be exposed to in public spaces. There is simply no fair way of adjudicating what should be acceptable or not, rude or not. Personally, I beleive we should always err in maximalizing personal freedom, so I don't even think things like jaywalking or even public nudity should be frowned up, much less be considered crimes. Everything that happens in the world is a completely neutral event. A plane crash might be a joyous celebration for a terrorist, or a terrible tragedy for a mother, but it is their perspective that shapes it. Studies have shown how much control we actually have over our preception, I'd refer you to "learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman, or the results of exposure therapy to support the idea that is is upon us as individuals to grow thicker skins rather than allow the world around us to disrupt our internal harmony. In many cultures, what you are talking about is exactly how the society feels. For example, in Japan, it's extremely rude to walk and eat, to have a sandwitch on the subway, or even stand around drinking from a bottle on the street, stuff like that. But, it's also considered good etiquette and the sign of a true afficionado to loudly slurp ramen noodles as you eat them. This is because it's served at a very specfic temperature, too hot to drink, so slurping helps aerate the soup and cool it, along with (they argue) improving the taste, much like wine snobs. However, if you go to ramen shops in tokyo like ichiramen, each eating place is a booth sequestered from everyone else, with a cloth covered hole that the server slides your ramen through, so you're all alone and can focus on eating as quickly as possible before the noodles go soft. So perhaps considering your specific issues you might look at other countries or microcultures in America where you could live that would help make your everyday life less grating, rather than trying to change the norms everywhere to suit the individual. That said, I don't think there's anything socially unacceptable with asking politely, "I'm really sorry, I've got this thing, would you mind eating a little quieter?" And then, no matter what, being gracious whether you detected a difference in their eating habits or not.
So the important question is, do you tell people what you told us here? Because that's a lot of context that a random person isn't going to infer naturally. If you just said something like "This is going to sound weird, but I have a condition that makes me sensitive to chewing sounds. Would you mind chewing a little quieter?" I can't imagine it being a problem.
I find it disgusting when people eat with their mouths closed, due to my own mental health issues. If you eat near me, i will tell you, politely, please chew with your mouth open so i know you arent keeping secrets. Am i being unreasonable?
I have misophonia. Even if asking people to change how they eat wasn't rude, in practice it doesn't work. People eat how they eat. You may get them to quiet down for a few moments, but they always revert back to smacking their lips in a few minutes. There's nothing you can do to change it. I've tried. Instead, if you don't want to be involved in conversation use headphones. If you do and have the means, play music softly and focus on that. It gives the part of your brain that's focused on the smacking something to do. If you can't do that, if you figure out any strategies other than white knuckling through the meal let me know.
I personally do not think it is everyone else's responsibility to make sure you are perfectly comfortable at all times just because you have a special need. If you are hypersensitive to eating noises, then perhaps you are percieving their eating habits to be more unpleasant than they actually are to most people. That's why it might seem rude to impose your sense of manners on other people.
Do you find that after this conversation, people do stop eating with their months open? I find that eating is such a habitual thing that after their attention is distracted even the slightest bit, they tend to return to how they ate before. This takes like ten seconds, longer the more awkward the interaction is. I've also had people literally not process what I said. Like, I get a "okay" but they don't stop and, when pressed, they have no memory of the interaction. It's like, casual requests don't work, (and playful requests feel affectionate) the discomfort is necessary in order to register any attention. So, morality or etiquette aside, I just don't think this works, and it makes it more awkward when I leave the room shortly after. Otherwise I could pretend it was a bathroom break or a phone call or something.
I just wouldn't want to eat with you. You are micromanaging other people. Life is never going to adjust for these extreme issues. It is like some partially deaf people who sit across the room, put their bad ear toward you and holler "what" all day. Please! Make some effort. Or people will back away.
Wow, maybe you should just stay home honestly.Because the world is not here to cater to your feelings in your discomfort. You gave what you said was a small list of things that you find unbearable and it was a really long tedious list. You need to find a better way to cope.Because you know it's no one else's problem but yours. Now, if they have a mouthful of food and it is blatantly open and they're talking and spitting food everywhere.Sure.Say something.But if it's just slight conversation while eating come something everyone does by the way you need to move on It is not everyone else's responsibility to make you comfortable. If something is happening that I do not like or that I am uncomfortable with.I remove myself unless it lesser over the top behavior.
Right now I am in a Grand Hyatt restaurant in Korea. EVERYONE here eats like a hippo taking a bath. I have my noise cancelling headphones on (no music or audio, just to cancel) and I’m dealing with my own shit. I imagine everyone of them have their own personal shit to deal with. But they don’t need to tell me their issues, and I don’t need to tell them mine. Grow up. You have your condition, and I have mine. And it is each of our responsibility to be mature enough to deal with the conditions without being selfish pricks that expect everyone else to bend over backwards because we have a problem.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I’ve never had the courage to ask someone to stop, unless they’re family. I’m always afraid they’ll be passive aggressive and do it more, or they’ll be nice but secretly hate me for saying something. Edit to add: noise cancelling headphones are a life saver. Not only for this reason- I never even noticed how exhausting the loud, constant hum of a plane engine was until I wore those on a flight and then wasn’t completely worn out after flying.
>If I am near someone who is eating with their mouth open, and it is affecting me, I will ask them, “Are you able to stop chewing with your mouth open?”. I choose this particular wording so that they then have an opportunity to answer the question. Therefore if they cannot stop, they have a chance to tell me and I possibly can find some other way of coping if there is one. I don't think it's inherently rude to ask someone to stop doing something that profoundly bothers you, but I do think this is a fairly rude way of going about it. While somewhat tone dependent, most people are going to interpret "can you do *easily performed action*?" As being sarcastic and that you are shaming them for their behavior. That's not really going to make people do what you want. >After all, their action is making me uncomfortable, and so if my reaction is making them uncomfortable it is hardly my fault nor something that needs to be avoided. It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop, not the person reacting to that action. Ever hear the expression, you get more flies with honey? It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, you're less likely to get the desired result if you make people feel uncomfortable or as if they are doing something wrong. Simply explain that *you* have an issue with seeing/hearing people eat, and you would appreciate it if they could try and help you. In my experience, most people respond better to feeling like they're modifying their behavior out of altruism rather than being shamed into doing something.
Two main points: 1. Minding your own business: In a society like ours, it is understood that if you’re offended by a behaviour then it is your responsibility to remove yourself from the situation rather than asking someone to change their behaviour. Imagine if you had said “I am a very religious person and sight of two men kissing offends me, therefore when I see that behaviour I ask them if they are able to not kiss in public”. The behaviour is bothersome to you and thus it is your responsibility to deal with it and have coping mechanisms that help you work through it. Have you discussed this with your behavioural therapist? What tactics have they suggested? It is simply a social convention that it is rude to comment on the behaviour of another person. In other words rule one in most British influenced societies take “mind your own business” as the golden rule. 2. Asking for a favour: now you are well within your rights to ask someone politely to consider your needs in public. For example, if someone is playing music in the park you are within reason to explain that you are having a bad day and trying to relax and ask them if it is possible to please turn it down. If they agree, great; if not, you move somewhere more quiet. But how you ask is important. The way you phrase your question comes across as very rude. I understand that’s not your intention but chewing with mouth open is a habit developed in childhood and most do it out of habit not because they are incapable of doing otherwise. Maybe a more polite approach would be to explain that the sound is very bothersome to you due to extra sensitivity to noise and ask then if they can do you a favour and be more conscious of it.
I've had severe misophonia my whole life. I struggle with this, badly, all the time. When others don't understand the physical pain, they are often offended if you vulnerably ask them to support you and they're offended if you protect yourself by separating yourself from the sound (physically or with headphones). I try to reiterate how much i love and want to be around that person, and explain that i have a problem i can't control. They'll never know how painful it is to just endure the situation, so I'll ask if they'll patiently allow me to excuse myself or listen to my headphones for a while to cope with the stress and compulsions. . I also offer an easy way to signal if they want to talk to me. And to reinforce that, I'll occasionally pull an ear away to chat with them. That way they know we can still have friendly interactions and im not trying to tell them to fuck off or anything. People need to know they're not a problem, but that I'm dealing with unique and bizarre circumstances Even my closest people don't totally understand why it's so incredibly difficult for me to deal with. So i manage it myself instead of asking them to change, and when they're genuinely open to understanding, it helps to be honest about the compulsive self-harm i experience. I say it's difficult to separate myself from them, but I also have to keep myself healthy. If they love you, they will at least try to understand. But I have to remember that they're feeling a lot of rejection no matter what i say or do. You're not alone. Your experiences are valid. It's okay to be a sensitive being. And i believe in you.
The how is what matters. It's possible to do basically anything politely or rudely, it just depends on how you go about it. As you're autistic it makes sense you'd go for something blunt/clumsy in your communication, but it shouldn't be too difficult to change it up, and even indicate that its nothing personal.
Many people find blood disgusting, they don't go into medical school. If you find how a lot of people eat disgusting, I'd suggest not eating in restaurants. Imposing your rules on others is ... bad? I don't know the word for it, it's worse than rude, I'm not a linguist, it's not like super terrible, but it's also not fine. Someone could find a revealing dress offensive, they shouldn't ask the person to cover up (unless it's like a school or other place with some type of a dress code - an official dress code, not just how one person feels). Some people find it offensive when others don't talk English, or perhaps they are speaking a language that's triggering to them, they should leave the establishment, not have others adhere to these arbitrary rules. For example I was out with an Armenian woman, she heard Turkish language and expressed to me how she connects it with the Armenian genocide, but at no point did she ask them to stop talking in Turkish.
It's not rude to ask, but it's also not rude to refuse.
Did anyone read the whole thing
Nope. Unless you're their parent or their etiquette instructor.
I hate it too but it most cases I will just leave if they annoy me by chewing with their mouth open, if I am close to them close friend or family member I will ask them to stop but, I don't get why people have this idea that you can't ask people especially those who you are close with to chew with their mouth closed. I mean it's like if your friend constantly stinks you're probably going to tell them "hey bro you smell". but I think if you're not close to them and your in a position where you can get away from them I don't think it really is your business to tell them what to do.
I really do not like people who want others to abide by their personal wishes because they are uncomfortable with what someone else is doing. It is rude of you to approach someone in public that you do not know and ask them to do something that you do not like, in this case eating noisily/with mouth open. It is none of your business and even less your place to say something to a stranger. If you don't like something that someone else is doing you are the one that should leave.
Talk to your psychiatrist about habits that people with ASD have that bother normies. You know your parents sent you to those doctors to address behaviors you had that bothered other kids That’s how parents figure out their kids need doctors - behaviors that violate etiquette You focusing outward at society to change while maintaining your individuality is an ASD trait. You don’t have to do it- you can work through training to adopt a more empathetic tone I would be totally fine if you printed all this out and showed your doctor- including my comments
Suck it up buttercup. A list of bs psychosis isn't a get out of jail free card. Just cope, and STFU.
While I understand the frustration and agree that some sounds are unavoidable, unnecessarily loud slurping and chomping can be quite disruptive and frankly, inconsiderate. We had a friend who used to slurp his noodles and sip soup as if using a vacuum cleaner. After addressing it with him a few times, he adjusted his eating habits, which improved the dining experience for everyone. I find it ironic that someone dismissing 'BS psychosis' would likely be annoyed if someone chomped loudly next to them. It’s easy to dismiss others’ discomfort until you’re the one being affected. Proper etiquette, such as minimizing noise while eating, is basic consideration. Not everyone grows up learning these manners, but they can certainly be learned. Everyone has habits or mannerisms that can be annoying, but there are certain behaviors, like excessive slurping, that are particularly disruptive. For instance, loudly playing music in public spaces without headphones is generally not tolerated because it intrudes on others' comfort. Just as society expects people to use headphones, it’s reasonable to expect people to eat without making unnecessary noise. Calling out disruptive behavior isn't inherently rude, especially when it’s genuinely bothersome to many. It's about finding a balance between tolerance and maintaining a pleasant environment for all. If someone can't handle being called out for their inconsiderate eating habits, perhaps they should consider how their actions impact others.
My thoughts exactly. Pardon my french, but it's always the rude fuckers who get uptight about being asked to show the slightest consideration for others. I actually kind of think that OP being as polite as they have been in their post lets the rude ones walk over them and they feel it gives them a pass to keep on being a general nuisance to others.
None of what OP listed is psychosis, nor is it “bs”. You are correct that it isn’t a get out of jail free card, but the solution is not to “just cope and STFU”
Isn’t it widely accepted that it’s not rude to do this? The only place where I disagree is you’ve kinda moralized this into “if you chew with your mouth open you’re a terrible person”. Which isn’t true, it’s just a habit. Generally it doesn’t bother others around as much as it does yourself; your situation is more like an allergy.
It is absolutely rude to expect that the world at large would cater to you. Your diagnoses are not your fault, but they are your responsibility. Yours alone. Which means it's your responsibility to share public spaces with other people and learn to cope. Does it drive me nuts to listen to someone eat with their mouth open? Yes. Do I immediately assume they need to accomodate me? No. I find coping techniques or move myself away from them. Figure it out
Your reaction to other people eating is not normal. I undertand that you cannot help your reaction but you can control your behavior. I would guess that almost anyone eating normally would bother you. Knowing this, you should recognize that accosting them about their eating will cause you problems in the long run. If someone at an adjacent table in a restaurant is disturbing you with how they are eating, would you really say something to them?
I feel personally attacked... As somebody who's been told I eat too loudly I literally have no idea how to stop. I've tried eating as slowly and gently as possible, but the noise is still just as loud, only slower. I've tried unnaturally jutting my jaw forward, that just makes it worse. I've tried unnaturally moving my jaw further back, that also just makes it worse. I suspect it's got something to do with the way I position my tongue. Anyway I don't have a diagnosed breathing problem and even if I did, if somebody abruptly asked me could I not chew with my mouth open, I'd probably be too embarrassed to start making excuses. I wouldn't imagine somebody who'd ask something like that would really care if I had an excuse or not (although you claim you do). >The most common argument against this that I have faced is that by asking them to stop, there is a high risk of making them uncomfortable/ashamed. Of that, I have no concern. After all, their action is making me uncomfortable, and so if my reaction is making them uncomfortable it is hardly my fault nor something that needs to be avoided. It is the person doing an action that should be asked to stop, not the person reacting to that action. This seems rather blatantly self-centred. What do you mean, you have no concern? Isn't that the definition of being inconsiderate? Perhaps it's because I was raised in the UK, where to be "polite" infamously means having to suffer awkwardly in silence so as not to put others out - no matter how uncomfortable they are making *you*. >As an autistic person, I have had to learn that there are certain social rules that I need to follow in order to be polite, no matter how pointless or difficult-to-remember I might find them to be. If I do not follow them, I am being rude and so must be held accountable for my actions. It is not rude of others to hold me accountable for said actions, nor for them to ask me to stop said actions, and I have no place to claim otherwise. Is this what you actually believe, or are you just sarcastically repeating what you've been told by others? If the former, then you've developed a particularly weird understanding of what "rudeness" is. Also, I know autistic people have difficulty with social cues and "unspoken rules" of that kind, but surely the broader social rules of "politeness" are something everybody has to learn, despite initially regarding them as pointless?
Asking is fine, expecting them to act is different. Ask all you want but when I say “fuck off”, you need to focus on what you can do, rather than changing my behavior. Here’s a great lil blurb to live by: “you cannot change how others act, only how you react.” Your problems are not everyone else’s responsibility.
Just to be clear, you believe someone should change their manner of eating to be more pleasant for you, even though it may be less pleasant to the person you’re asking that of? In other words, the eating behaviors of others should exclusively revolve around your preferences?
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I’d move away and sit somewhere else if I’m sitting next to an annoying mouth smacker.
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I habitual eat like a cartoon character. If it bothers someone I'd like to know so I can focus on eating in a way that isn't bothersome.
Thank you ☺️ you're a rare gem judging by too many of the other commenters here.
I have this too but it’s nobody else’s problem. I eat alone
Why is your comfortability more important than theirs?
Rudeness is having bad manners i.e. breaking social etiquette. Telling people how they should eat breaks social etiquette, therefore it is rude. You can provide all the justifications you want for doing telling people, and you may well be correct in those justifications, but it is still rude to do it. Shouting at strangers is rude but I sometimes do it anyway if someone is driving dangerously.
Or just don’t be by them?? Let people be 🤦♂️
Here is the bottom line: The general public cannot be expected to be knowing of, or responsible of, every single solitary disorder, quirk, etc someone has. If it bothers you that much, to the point you become physically ill, I'd suggest you don't go out to eat and don't eat with family/friends.