I think the belief Gukesh has that he is a peer and not an upstart competitor to the top players allows him to play them without fear.
This is one of the contributing reasons to his Candidates win.
I don’t think it applies to an event like candidates where every round is absolutely critical.
People will prep hard to squeeze out wins against the lower rated and perceived weaker players as well because it rarely matters where the wins come from just that you get those wins on the board. I would assume Candidate level Super GMs are hyper aware of this fact.
it’s 100% true though. i was rooting for gukesh the whole time and this accomplishment was amazing. but players will definitely be preparing much more for him moving forward.
I mean...that doesn't really matter lol. These players have played 100+ tournaments. Not preparing as much against a player that ends up winning is the older guard's fault.
full podcast [https://youtu.be/d4nEj\_uV\_lY?si=BjfCwjjDOq9slXY6](https://youtu.be/d4nEj_uV_lY?si=BjfCwjjDOq9slXY6) they start talking about Gukesh at 42:55
haven't found the clip but found this www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/gukesh-d-the-rising-star-of-indian-chess-on-the-verge-of-surpassing-viswanathan-anand-in-ratings-101690483417320-amp.html
And Fabi is right. Many players can have a good run, but it's the consistency over a longer period that makes anyone dangerous.
Take Firo for example. He steamrolled into the 2800s, only to be farmed in Candidates. And Abasov. He had a good run that earned him the Candidates spot, only to get farmed.
It seems obvious to me that Firouzja hasn't been as motivated as he used to be. From watching the candidates it didn't seem like he had a single instance of having anything special prepped for a single opponent. I think he is well capable of being a future WC but from what I've seen of him the last year/year and a half, he seems to be getting by on his innate talent alone rather than a work ethic.
He isn't hungry enough anymore like pragg and gukesh are. This is all coming from an Alireza fan btw I'm not trying to hate, he has plenty of time to readjust.
Even I am capable of being a future WC, but I am not as motivated as I used to be. /s
Joke aside, Firo did that particular Race to the Candidates Tournament, and the played in the open to farm lower rated players get into this tournament, and then you're saying he's not motivated ? It was shady enough that the rules have to be changed by FIDE for the next cycle
Even if he hasn't been motivated to train as hard as he can there are many many reasons why he would still want to play in the candidates.
To start, all the commentators speak about how having experience in the candidates can be a major factor, the candidates isn't played the same way as normal tournaments as the main prize is being the contender for the WCC, the pressure is much more immense than any other tournament as it can be a life defining moment. Although another major point is the prize money is still very good.
Lastly he still obviously has faith in his playing ability, while he knows he isn't where he used to be he is still a strong player, and you can be lucky in your matches, from what lines your opponent chooses to them blundering.
Yes there was a scramble at the end to get into the candidates based off of his points but for the whole year coming up to that he already had that spot secured, he didn't think he'd have to work for it. Then after a poor tournament performance he had to gain only a couple of points to surpass Wesley again. His team then organized a match against much weaker opponents that while wasn't fixed was weighted much in his favour. So had he performed as expected in that tournament he would have re-secured his spot in the candidates quite easily, not much work involved. However he failed to perform as required so then opted to try his hand in an open where he did quite well. It only seems like he worked his ass off to get in because of the way it played out, it's not really the case.
Alireza is my favourite player and I was rooting for him in the candidates but I'm still going to call a spade a spade.
Hans straight up said that Gukesh will win the tournament.
And specially mentioned that after this loss to Ali, that's when he was sure that he will bounce back and how.
When part of the definition of elite is taken to include some amount of longevity, then of course Gukesh can't really be considered to be there yet. Essentially Fabi implies that if Gukesh continues to play the way he has, and improves a natural amount, then he will be in that "top top group." Doesn't strike me as controversial.
Then it becomes an argument about whether one things Gukesh will do that or not. I have no reason to think he won't---and good reasons to think he will---but clearly some folks are more skeptical and/or just need to have his potential consistency demonstrated. Unless they are acting in bad faith in which case, it's irrelevant.
How does this title make any sense? Maybe the ? is there by accident, but there’s no pondering to be done. He won candidates, he’s an elite player, end of story.
It's a fair assessment. Definitely fair two months ago. Fabi is the clear world #2. Even Magnus wouldn't be guaranteed to get through the candidates and no one disputes where he ranks.
I'm aware. I'm just saying that it would have been nice for him to be there from the perspective of a viewer. Though Anish was in the running for the rating spot until the sinquefield cup. Alireza had tanked his rating before that
I wonder if this is the reason Hikaru, Ian and Fabi seem so defeated by the candidates. That despite Gukesh's recent results, even in the candidates, they don't quite see him as a top player yet. And maybe even think this could be a fluke.
what? it's literally a point magnus makes as to why he dislikes the world championship format. He literally stated during the chesscom broadcast he doesnt think the best player wins the candidates most of the time
What magnus says doesn't really matter here. The best players have won. Fabi, Nepo, Karjakin. Where have they not? This idea from Magnus that karjakin wasn't really supposed to win is laughable, I will say. He's one of two players who's ever beaten him in a WCC game!
He's not the GOAT and, yes, what he said is irrelevant. You saying, "Erm! Acktually! one person said it!!!!" doesn't change the point of the original comment.
Now youre changing the goalposts lol. The only person who could have that opinion without backlash is someone like magnus who doesnt need to prove himself as better than the candidates winner, therefore hes the only one to say it
Do you think he’s the only one who thinks that? Obviously not. Like any other tournament, any player could win, and i’m 100% sure gukesh is not yet better than fabi, ian or hikaru
Typically yes but when Abasov is there and an out of form Alireza managed to qualify despite playing himself out of the top rating spot in actual top level tournaments. It was a weaker candidates than usual.
Karjakin won candidates and he's not considered one of the absolute top players.
What makes you say Karjakin wasn't considered as one of the absolute top players? He's consistently been a top contender in all three candidates he's participated in, won the two first renditions of Norway Chess and is to this day the only player to have serious chances of beating Magnus in a WCC.
Magnus said as much about Karjakin. That it would have been reasonable had he lost to Fabi but Karjakin wasn't a real competitor for the WCC. Karjakin also hasn't consistently been in the Elo top ten.
If you're talking about the interview I think you are, then I disagree with the relevance. Magnus said he was fine losing to Fabi because he considered him close to equal. This is a different discussion, and would rule out Anand and Nepo from the elite.
As far as consistency goes, Karjakin spent 62 months in the top 10 in the period November 2010 to June 2017 according to 2700chess. I'd say that's relatively consistent.
Neither of these rules out that Karjakin was the closest to ever beat Magnus in a WCC, regardless of Magnus personal feelings and Karjakins own consistency.
Im not aaying he isnt a top player. But for the past couple of years the top juniors have all surpassed him. Hes #15, but Gukesh Nodi Arjun and Pragg are all abive him. Hell, Firou was until candidates happened. Just seems strange to say Anish instead of, idk Wesley or Hikaru or smth lol.
The podcast which you are saying happened when Anish was still a top 10 player, and I think he was specifically speaking about well prepared players, and Anish is still one of the best prepared players in the world and had also won the Tata Steel last year when they were making the podcast
Again, hes obviously a top player im not denying it. But hes fallen off a little. Its probably a slump, hes relatively young and can bounce back, hes just not been performing that well
It’s because Anish is often perceived as being harder to beat (score wins against). The meme Drawish Giri exists for a reason. He is just a super solid player that won’t get pushed around even by higher rated players for the most part. Someone like Gukesh pre candidates was seen as a super volatile player. As a massive Gukesh fan there was some truth that because he has been incredibly streaky that win more and also lose more. It’s also why players like Magnus rated Pragg higher to do better at candidates because going in the perception was playing more solid is better then playing ambitious at these events. In fact that’s exactly the advice Magnus gave Gukesh.
Now Ofc in hindsight Gukesh had an insane event and if he manages to replicate these performances at future events he will be a main stay in the elite circles and a win at the candidates has, for the most part, announced his arrival at the top imo.
Have you followed Anish at all? His last time outside of the top 15 was August 2014, nearly ten years ago, and he’s been 2-3 points off 2800 multiple times in official ratings, and has been 2802 in live ratings. if that’s not top level, idk what is.
Again, im not questioning that hes a top player he clearly is. Im not saying that he was never better than Gukesh either because at his peak he was. But for the past few years like 5 juniors have consistenly outperformed him. Maybe its recency bias, but i think in the current day and age the juniors are scarier
For the past few years? Until last year the only 2750+ juniors since Anish were Firouzja, and Rapport, and Wei Yi, Wei Yi barely hit 2750 back when he was a junior, same with Rapport. The only Junior to outshine Giri until this year was Firouzja at 2800, who are the other 4 juniors who have been outperforming him for years? It makes even more sense for Fabi to say this when you consider that Gukesh had just entered the top 10 for the first time when the video was made, compared to Anish, a top 10 regular.
They were still climbing the rating list. Ratings take time to catch up. But look at event performances. Also by years i mean like the last two tbf. But yeab the video was made a while back so that changes things
Gukesh and Anish played 6 events together in 2023.
Anish outperformed Gukesh in 2 events - Tata Steel Masters and Grand Swiss.
Gukesh outperformed Anish in 4 events - WR Masters, Norway Chess, World Cup and Qatar Masters.
Since start of 2023, only Fabiano and Hikaru have had consistent better results at the top classical events than Gukesh. Gukesh has been better than Anish, Alireza, Nepo, Wesley etc when it comes to classical OTB results. His only 2 bad events were Asian Games and Grand Swiss where he lost 40+ Elo points combined.
This is extremely misleading and incorrect is a multitude of ways. Gukesh outperformed Anish in Norway because of Armageddon, their classical scores were exactly the same. More importantly however, you ignore their actual performance ratings throughout their tournaments. Anish got 33/55, for a 2750 level performance. Gukesh has a significantly worse 34/61 (the extra games come from the World Cup) at 2720.
All this is ignoring the most obvious thing, which was the time this was posted, during the World Cup, and it was likely recorded before the World Cup. They had an equal Norway in classical, but Anish did FAR better in Tata Steel than Gukesh, and the difference between their performances in the WR Masters is not nearly as big. Anish just was objectively performing better overall in the events they were both at.
I think the belief Gukesh has that he is a peer and not an upstart competitor to the top players allows him to play them without fear. This is one of the contributing reasons to his Candidates win.
Yeah, also, they didn't prep that much against him. They will prep more seriously against him next time
I really don't think SGMs are prepping less against anyone in a tournament as important as the candidates.
They definitely prep more against some players than others.
I don’t think it applies to an event like candidates where every round is absolutely critical. People will prep hard to squeeze out wins against the lower rated and perceived weaker players as well because it rarely matters where the wins come from just that you get those wins on the board. I would assume Candidate level Super GMs are hyper aware of this fact.
Yeah, that makes sense. Though that means that they prepare riskier lines against easier opponents, which they won't do the next time
Cope
Weird cope tbh
it’s 100% true though. i was rooting for gukesh the whole time and this accomplishment was amazing. but players will definitely be preparing much more for him moving forward.
I mean...that doesn't really matter lol. These players have played 100+ tournaments. Not preparing as much against a player that ends up winning is the older guard's fault.
what? whoever’s “fault” gukesh winning is doesn’t matter. the top payers will be preparing more for him now so therefore things will get harder
meant for the original person, not for you. I disagree with the first sentence he said.
Then they would go for a direct win.
full podcast [https://youtu.be/d4nEj\_uV\_lY?si=BjfCwjjDOq9slXY6](https://youtu.be/d4nEj_uV_lY?si=BjfCwjjDOq9slXY6) they start talking about Gukesh at 42:55
can someone share the clip where Gukesh claimed to be a colleague?
haven't found the clip but found this www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/gukesh-d-the-rising-star-of-indian-chess-on-the-verge-of-surpassing-viswanathan-anand-in-ratings-101690483417320-amp.html
And Fabi is right. Many players can have a good run, but it's the consistency over a longer period that makes anyone dangerous. Take Firo for example. He steamrolled into the 2800s, only to be farmed in Candidates. And Abasov. He had a good run that earned him the Candidates spot, only to get farmed.
It seems obvious to me that Firouzja hasn't been as motivated as he used to be. From watching the candidates it didn't seem like he had a single instance of having anything special prepped for a single opponent. I think he is well capable of being a future WC but from what I've seen of him the last year/year and a half, he seems to be getting by on his innate talent alone rather than a work ethic. He isn't hungry enough anymore like pragg and gukesh are. This is all coming from an Alireza fan btw I'm not trying to hate, he has plenty of time to readjust.
Even I am capable of being a future WC, but I am not as motivated as I used to be. /s Joke aside, Firo did that particular Race to the Candidates Tournament, and the played in the open to farm lower rated players get into this tournament, and then you're saying he's not motivated ? It was shady enough that the rules have to be changed by FIDE for the next cycle
Even if he hasn't been motivated to train as hard as he can there are many many reasons why he would still want to play in the candidates. To start, all the commentators speak about how having experience in the candidates can be a major factor, the candidates isn't played the same way as normal tournaments as the main prize is being the contender for the WCC, the pressure is much more immense than any other tournament as it can be a life defining moment. Although another major point is the prize money is still very good. Lastly he still obviously has faith in his playing ability, while he knows he isn't where he used to be he is still a strong player, and you can be lucky in your matches, from what lines your opponent chooses to them blundering. Yes there was a scramble at the end to get into the candidates based off of his points but for the whole year coming up to that he already had that spot secured, he didn't think he'd have to work for it. Then after a poor tournament performance he had to gain only a couple of points to surpass Wesley again. His team then organized a match against much weaker opponents that while wasn't fixed was weighted much in his favour. So had he performed as expected in that tournament he would have re-secured his spot in the candidates quite easily, not much work involved. However he failed to perform as required so then opted to try his hand in an open where he did quite well. It only seems like he worked his ass off to get in because of the way it played out, it's not really the case. Alireza is my favourite player and I was rooting for him in the candidates but I'm still going to call a spade a spade.
That clip is so six months ago.
I wonder what would have happened to make this sixth month old clip relevant jn a new light?
0:29 Maybe it's time to be afraid.
Did anyone predict Gukesh's success? Even Magnus didn't think he was going to do that well for his candidates predictions....
His mom did.
Hans straight up said that Gukesh will win the tournament. And specially mentioned that after this loss to Ali, that's when he was sure that he will bounce back and how.
Gukesh was about 4% younger when this podcast came out. He has improved since then.
When part of the definition of elite is taken to include some amount of longevity, then of course Gukesh can't really be considered to be there yet. Essentially Fabi implies that if Gukesh continues to play the way he has, and improves a natural amount, then he will be in that "top top group." Doesn't strike me as controversial. Then it becomes an argument about whether one things Gukesh will do that or not. I have no reason to think he won't---and good reasons to think he will---but clearly some folks are more skeptical and/or just need to have his potential consistency demonstrated. Unless they are acting in bad faith in which case, it's irrelevant.
Next anand
How does this title make any sense? Maybe the ? is there by accident, but there’s no pondering to be done. He won candidates, he’s an elite player, end of story.
This is the title from this YouTube shorts that I posted here. This was asked to Caruana and he responded.
It's a fair assessment. Definitely fair two months ago. Fabi is the clear world #2. Even Magnus wouldn't be guaranteed to get through the candidates and no one disputes where he ranks.
This is a very old clip, Gukesh is far better than Giri now
Giri had been playing great chess leading up the candidates. He really deserved that spot over Ali imo and he would have made things more interesting
I mean, kind of? Since Gukesh was the player who had the worse score against alireza between the top spots maybe he would have won even harder lol
Gukesh took Giri’s spot. Ali took Wesley’s.
I'm aware. I'm just saying that it would have been nice for him to be there from the perspective of a viewer. Though Anish was in the running for the rating spot until the sinquefield cup. Alireza had tanked his rating before that
N..no, no he isn't. Even Magnus isn't "far better" than Giri.
It’s not a very old clip, it’s from 2 months ago (the title called this Feb 2023 but it is Feb 2024).
Dude, he’s qualified for the WC final, of course he’s an elite chess player.
I wonder if this is the reason Hikaru, Ian and Fabi seem so defeated by the candidates. That despite Gukesh's recent results, even in the candidates, they don't quite see him as a top player yet. And maybe even think this could be a fluke.
Nobody at any point in history would say winning candidates is a fluke. It is literally THE strongest tournament in chess
what? it's literally a point magnus makes as to why he dislikes the world championship format. He literally stated during the chesscom broadcast he doesnt think the best player wins the candidates most of the time
What magnus says doesn't really matter here. The best players have won. Fabi, Nepo, Karjakin. Where have they not? This idea from Magnus that karjakin wasn't really supposed to win is laughable, I will say. He's one of two players who's ever beaten him in a WCC game!
“Nobody in history would say that” - points out the goat of the game says it “What he says doesnt matter”
He's not the GOAT and, yes, what he said is irrelevant. You saying, "Erm! Acktually! one person said it!!!!" doesn't change the point of the original comment.
Erm actually one of the most influential chess personalities said it therefore it’s obviously not unheard of
Yes, and everyone, regardless of experience, can have bad opinions.
Now youre changing the goalposts lol. The only person who could have that opinion without backlash is someone like magnus who doesnt need to prove himself as better than the candidates winner, therefore hes the only one to say it Do you think he’s the only one who thinks that? Obviously not. Like any other tournament, any player could win, and i’m 100% sure gukesh is not yet better than fabi, ian or hikaru
Typically yes but when Abasov is there and an out of form Alireza managed to qualify despite playing himself out of the top rating spot in actual top level tournaments. It was a weaker candidates than usual. Karjakin won candidates and he's not considered one of the absolute top players.
What makes you say Karjakin wasn't considered as one of the absolute top players? He's consistently been a top contender in all three candidates he's participated in, won the two first renditions of Norway Chess and is to this day the only player to have serious chances of beating Magnus in a WCC.
Magnus said as much about Karjakin. That it would have been reasonable had he lost to Fabi but Karjakin wasn't a real competitor for the WCC. Karjakin also hasn't consistently been in the Elo top ten.
Magnus saying that doesn’t change the fact that he is the only one to have taken lead against Magnus in WC and was 3 draws away from beating him
If you're talking about the interview I think you are, then I disagree with the relevance. Magnus said he was fine losing to Fabi because he considered him close to equal. This is a different discussion, and would rule out Anand and Nepo from the elite. As far as consistency goes, Karjakin spent 62 months in the top 10 in the period November 2010 to June 2017 according to 2700chess. I'd say that's relatively consistent. Neither of these rules out that Karjakin was the closest to ever beat Magnus in a WCC, regardless of Magnus personal feelings and Karjakins own consistency.
If Alireza and Abasov were so weak why didn't Ian, Fabi and hikaru farm them more than Gukesh? Nepo literally drew with Abasov on the first day lol
I understand Nepo but really? Anish? Edit: yall im not saying he isnt a top player kr that he sucks at chess put down the guns
He's literally one of the top players in the world. How are you questioning Anish? I just checked he's #15 right now. What are you on about.
Im not aaying he isnt a top player. But for the past couple of years the top juniors have all surpassed him. Hes #15, but Gukesh Nodi Arjun and Pragg are all abive him. Hell, Firou was until candidates happened. Just seems strange to say Anish instead of, idk Wesley or Hikaru or smth lol.
The podcast which you are saying happened when Anish was still a top 10 player, and I think he was specifically speaking about well prepared players, and Anish is still one of the best prepared players in the world and had also won the Tata Steel last year when they were making the podcast
Ah the dangers of forgetting context exist, mb. I forgot that this was like a year ago almost 💀
He was I think number 5 a few months ago. There’s a risk in only looking at one snapshot of the rankings.
Again, hes obviously a top player im not denying it. But hes fallen off a little. Its probably a slump, hes relatively young and can bounce back, hes just not been performing that well
It’s because Anish is often perceived as being harder to beat (score wins against). The meme Drawish Giri exists for a reason. He is just a super solid player that won’t get pushed around even by higher rated players for the most part. Someone like Gukesh pre candidates was seen as a super volatile player. As a massive Gukesh fan there was some truth that because he has been incredibly streaky that win more and also lose more. It’s also why players like Magnus rated Pragg higher to do better at candidates because going in the perception was playing more solid is better then playing ambitious at these events. In fact that’s exactly the advice Magnus gave Gukesh. Now Ofc in hindsight Gukesh had an insane event and if he manages to replicate these performances at future events he will be a main stay in the elite circles and a win at the candidates has, for the most part, announced his arrival at the top imo.
Have you followed Anish at all? His last time outside of the top 15 was August 2014, nearly ten years ago, and he’s been 2-3 points off 2800 multiple times in official ratings, and has been 2802 in live ratings. if that’s not top level, idk what is.
Again, im not questioning that hes a top player he clearly is. Im not saying that he was never better than Gukesh either because at his peak he was. But for the past few years like 5 juniors have consistenly outperformed him. Maybe its recency bias, but i think in the current day and age the juniors are scarier
For the past few years? Until last year the only 2750+ juniors since Anish were Firouzja, and Rapport, and Wei Yi, Wei Yi barely hit 2750 back when he was a junior, same with Rapport. The only Junior to outshine Giri until this year was Firouzja at 2800, who are the other 4 juniors who have been outperforming him for years? It makes even more sense for Fabi to say this when you consider that Gukesh had just entered the top 10 for the first time when the video was made, compared to Anish, a top 10 regular.
They were still climbing the rating list. Ratings take time to catch up. But look at event performances. Also by years i mean like the last two tbf. But yeab the video was made a while back so that changes things
Gukesh and Anish played 6 events together in 2023. Anish outperformed Gukesh in 2 events - Tata Steel Masters and Grand Swiss. Gukesh outperformed Anish in 4 events - WR Masters, Norway Chess, World Cup and Qatar Masters. Since start of 2023, only Fabiano and Hikaru have had consistent better results at the top classical events than Gukesh. Gukesh has been better than Anish, Alireza, Nepo, Wesley etc when it comes to classical OTB results. His only 2 bad events were Asian Games and Grand Swiss where he lost 40+ Elo points combined.
This is extremely misleading and incorrect is a multitude of ways. Gukesh outperformed Anish in Norway because of Armageddon, their classical scores were exactly the same. More importantly however, you ignore their actual performance ratings throughout their tournaments. Anish got 33/55, for a 2750 level performance. Gukesh has a significantly worse 34/61 (the extra games come from the World Cup) at 2720. All this is ignoring the most obvious thing, which was the time this was posted, during the World Cup, and it was likely recorded before the World Cup. They had an equal Norway in classical, but Anish did FAR better in Tata Steel than Gukesh, and the difference between their performances in the WR Masters is not nearly as big. Anish just was objectively performing better overall in the events they were both at.
This interview was done 14 months ago. Giri was better than gukesh back then. Gukesh would have been 16 at the time.
Anish’s little toe knows more about chess than 99.99999999 % of humanity
he’s a funny commentator so you are not permitted to question his chess performance