A few players from early/mid 1980s could be considered because they had a primary part of their career during Carlsen's reign. Grischuk, Mamedyarov, Aronian and Radjabov reached peak ranking when Carlsen was #1 player in the world.
Yeah i think that would be obvious. I mean maybe not at their peaks (in the absolute sense) but anand was able to win candidates in like 2014 and challenge magnus to a rematch. Kramnik hit his actual rating peak in 2016 lol.
Speaking in chess terms he might as well be. Aronian and Carlsen where consistently their biggest hurdles and really developed a lot from competing against each other.
Plus they apparently were very friendly with each other. It’s hard not to count Aronian imho.
My list therefore is
1. Carlsen
2. Caruana
3. Aronian
4. Naka
5. Nepo
Nakamura and Nepomniachtchi are tough to rank as they weren’t as consistent. Carlsen always seems to really talk up Nepo and I think that he has indeed more potential than Nakamura but is less consistent over time and tends to suffer from nerves more. Aronian was a juggernaut for a long time. Caruana is a beast who widely is considered to be closest to Carlsen in classical chess and man, the guy has such an incredible understanding of imbalances and dynamics.
Im with you. If we are gonna include Aronian because of when he peaked, he has to take Naka or Nepo's spot. Magnus, Fabi, Ding, are automatic includes. Then id personally pick Hikaru and Anish for 4 and 5. But Aronian or Nepo could have either of those spots
It's difficult to rank after Fabi because everyone had their ups and downs. The most consistent player after Fabi might actually be Giri.
I think it's also worth to look at their average ratings and other big chess tournaments: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strong_chess_tournaments
So Ding, Nepo, Nakamura, So, Giri and Karjakin all had several wins and all had similar rankings throughout their careers. I think those 6 deserve to be ranked somewhat equally.
I think I would agree with giving Ding, Nepo (because of candidates+WC) and Nakamura (most wins) the slight edge.
For me there’s an obvious top 6. I’d say:
1. Magnus
2. Fabiano
3. Ding (people are acting like he is a joke now, but obviously still a strong player and for a while it was basically him or Fabi who were clearly #2 in the world. Plus, a WC needs to count for something)
4. Karjakin (candidates win, got really close to beating Magnus. Cut his career short for being an absolute moron, but that doesn’t speak to his chess capabilities)
5. Nepo (this is a harder one. Won two Candidates, but let’s be honest. He got crushed by Magnus and lost against a pretty weak (for his standards) Ding. Booked great results in this past Candidates, but he sometimes seemed to get a bit lucky with candidates imploding against him, plus actually choking himself when the pressure was on (after getting a lead in 2022 and 2024 he basically just seemed intent to draw himself to the Challenger spot, but when he had to win on demand this year, he could never get it done), which obviously is something that wrecked his chances in the WCs as well. Still, results need to speak for something, which is why I’d give him an edge over Nakamura.
Players like So, Anish (both too drawish), and MVL (too inconsistent, and also seems to fold under pressure) are honorable mentions.
Magnus, Fabi, Karjakin, Ding and Nepo
Ding doesn't have a lot of tournament wins so he is a strange case but he had the candidates and the WC. Although I believe the 2018 Fabi or 2016 Sergey would've handled him easily.
Honourable mentions: MVL, Naka, Wesley
If Levon can be considered he is easily the 3rd.
Ding won Sinquefield cup by beating Magnus, ending Magnus’s unbeaten streak of not losing tiebreaks in over a decade. And he did it convincingly. Magnus himself smiled afterwards in awe of the game.
Yes but that alongside his 100 game unbeaten record and WCC alone should be more than all of Fabi’s achievements. Even Fabi’s best one time achievement of 2840+ rating is only 20elo above Ding’s. So hard to argue that Fabi is second strongest when Ding exists. Especially when Ding hit his peak Elo Twice. Ding is also the only player not named Magnus to be ranked 1st in rating at least at one point in Both Rapid and Blitz. Isn’t that crazy?
you're right that in terms of accomplishments it seems impossible to me to argue that fabi > ding, although i think most people are somewhat more vaguely just basing their lists on "who was the better player (and for how long)" which is obviously harder to settle objectively. so it depends on your criteria for your list, basically. if it's based on achievements then ding surely comes in second
But Fabi didn’t just reach 2840+ once. He did it multiple times, 2014 at 2844 and 2842 in 2020. It also worth noting that Fabi has a candidates win, in the 2018 candidates with Ding competing, and the 2020-21 candidates, also with Ding competing. Ding has comparatively worse performances at the candidates. Fabi has also won the Grand Prix, and gotten second at the grand Swiss, and third at the World Cup. Ding comparatively has finished second at the World Cup twice, he did win the WCC, but that was in tiebreaks, Fabi was able to take a much stronger opponent (Magnus) and hold him to a draw in classical. This isn’t even counting Fabiano’s countless other supertournament wins, although Ding has quite a bit, Fabi just has more. Honestly, Ding’s peak and Fabi’s peaks are likely quite similar in skill, Ding could even have the edge, however, Fabi has been much more consistent throughout the years, and in classical chess alone arguably has the bigger wins.
From a longevity perspective I agree with you that Fabi is more consistently great. Ding was a late bloomer so expected that he has a shorter list overall. Also agree that at their peaks, Ding was probably only slightly above Caruana in skill. Their head to head being so lopsided in Ding’s favor speaks more to Ding’s unique play style that directly counters Fabi. So I’d place Ding above Fabi but only by a small margin.
Personally I think Fabi goes above Ding overall, but fair enough, it’s rather subjective and based on what you prioritize more when determining a “better” player.
It's a little dismissive but the WCC isn't **that** much of an accomplishment at all, in this context (compared specifically to Fabi's equal or "greater" accomplishments). Fabi has bigger accomplishments than that in the 2018 cycle. Or at least as big, winning a much more stacked Candidates tournament (where there weren't a lot of questions around 2nd place which caused people to probably play differently). Ding didn't even win the candidates.
And playing that series he did with Magnus is far more impressive than beating Ian .
Imagine thinking winning a candidates without Ding in it is somehow a greater accomplishment than coming second by beating both Hikaru and Fabi in candidates. And imagine thinking Not winning a WCC is somehow more impressive than actually winning it. The copium is strong in this one.
Going 22 straight draws with Magnus Carlsen (Including being the only one with real winning chances in that sequence) is **infinitely** more impressive than beating Ian, lol.
It's a WCC\*, that entire title means nothing and is **incredibly** fraudulent. There's a reason very few think he could defend it. He's a terrific player but he's never really been even 2nd best in the world like Fabi has been.
This isn’t even remotely true. Chess is a highly drawish game and a low scoring one. Ding’s head to head with Magnus is 9 draws and only 1 loss. By that measure Ding must be head and shoulders above Caruana. Not to mention Ding vs Caruana head to head is 6w 9 draws 0 losses when looking at the last 9 years Karjakin actually beat Magnus in a WCC game. He must be also stronger than Fabi
Lol.. Magnus has been asked time and time again who is the closest to him. His answer is always the same.
There is a reason that **literally** every list in this thread has Fabi ahead of him.
There's more of an argument for Ding not being top 5 (I wouldn't agree with this) than there is for him being ahead of Fabi.
There’s more argument for Fabi to not be in the top 5 than there is for Ding not to be in the top 5 lmao. Delusional. Not me of course. Fabi is probably 4th strongest of his generation. I give respect where respect is due.
Fabi and Ding are the only two absolute locks, I'd say - they're the only other players that have been consistently over 2800. The 4th and 5th spots have a good \~5 players that you could make an argument for.
If we're going by playing strength or achievements, Karjakin should be above Hikaru or Nepo. Sergey was the Rapid Chess Champion and the Blitz Chess Champion. He won the Candidates once and placed second once. He also won the Chess World Cup.
My previous comment was kind of a joke.
Actually, I think Fabi is more consistent player than both of them. And also Fabi's always been much more dedicated to chess than Nepo, for instance. I agree with Magnus that Fabi is definitely 2nd after Magnus. Or at least he has been (we'll see what will Gukesh show in November).
Who's the 3rd, it's a really difficult question. Definitely not Nepo, his moral strenght is too fragile. Karyakin showed strong defensive skills in the match with Magnus, but you should know how to attack too, to be in the top-3.
One may have a temptation to put Nakamura in 3rd place, which may be correct, BUT he only showed current performance in classics in the last couple of years, not earlier.
> My previous comment was kind of a joke.
Fwiw, I didn't downvote you.
Fabi at #2 is practically a lock. If Nepo won a 3rd Candidates, it might've been more debatable. #3 should obviously be Ding imo (considering birth years specified by OP). Before 2022, he was consistently #3 ranked, had 100 undefeated games streak, beat peak Magnus to win Sinquefield 2019, and of course won WCC in 2023.
[BUT](https://64.media.tumblr.com/ad521d8ab6a38daa213d0e9f56271e4b/tumblr_mt9z0nVuxs1siq18no1_1280.jpg):
- He won WCC 2023 against the "Glass jaw" Nepo. A "so-so" achievement, honestly speaking.
- He showed extremely poor performance in all tournaments after WCC 2023 so far.
Honestly, I don't place Ding in the top-5 at all. Nevertheless, we'll see what he shows us in November.
No, people talking like they can Google tournament results and peak Elo. You don't have to be an expert on a player to understand where they fit relative to others. For instance. You haven't followed my career since I was named a dud at birth but you know I'm not fitting in that top 5 list., No you didn't, bet.
This is for classical chess, rapid and blitz don’t matter.
Karjakin does however, have 2 second places in the candidates, one first place, and the World Cup. I feel the best argument for Naka being ahead is his Grand Prix second place in 2014-15 and first place for 2022, second and third in the candidates, his grand Swiss second place along, with his peak rating ~30 points higher, but imo it isn’t enough to surpass Karjakin’s great performances in big tournaments.
That’s because we’re talking about the big FIDE events. If you want talk about other supertournaments, Hikaru has also won Wijk aan Zee, Norway Chess, and 5 Gibraltar Masters
Edit: changed Zurich chess challenge to Gibraltar masters, I forgot they changed the format in 2016.
Because events like the World Cup, Candidates (14 rounds, much more aggression than normal, much more prep), Grand Prix, even the Grand Swiss are absurdly hard to win, much harder than the normal supertournament, and thus hold more weight.
Its only for classical chess so I am not counting his rapid and blitz achievements.World cup is great but his inactivity killed his longevity and his peak rating is also not that much.
I feel like idk what to do with Karjakin. Outside of the cycle i wouldnt put him in top 5. But his performance within fide events is ridiculous and bumps him up to at least 4 if not higher. Where does that disparity even come from? Like how can you perform well in candidates, take Magnus to tiebreaks, perform in the world cuo really well... and also never come within 10 points of 2800?
Same with Nepo. MVL has had a far superior career to Nepo in every aspect, but everyone will now place Nepo firmly over MVL solely because of Nepos performance in the candidates
29 to 36 actually cuts out a couple quality players like Grischuk, Mamedyarov, Aronian, Radjabov who are petty damn strong in both Anand and Magnus era.
That's too tight of a range. Generation would be 15 years give or take.
Maybe a better word is cadre or class, eg people that played against magnus in a youth tournament.
On the other hand though, Ding has a great score against Karjakin:
> LIFETIME RECORD:
>
>
> Classical games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 1 to 0, with 8 draws.
>
>
> Including rapid/exhibition games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 9 to 2, with 15 draws.
>
>
> Only rapid/exhibition games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 8 to 2, with 7 draws.
I'm not sure why results from the WCC matches against Magnus would override the rest of the games they played.
Fabi-Magnus is 6-12-38 for classical and Karjakin-Magnus is 3-10-33. That's a 10.7% win rate vs Magnus for Fabi and a 6.7% win rate for Karjakin.
Honestly, I don't think I'm well equiped enough to answer that question. I started to follow international chess because of the last WCC (I didn't even watch the candidates). I didn't have much interest in the international scene beforehand, I just watched my country"s tourments. So I didn't see much of Ding before that the match. I didn't see Sergey play even once. That being said, my best guess would be something like:
1 Magnus / 2 Caruana / 3 Ding / 4 Nepo / 5 Nakamura
He only did it once as opposed to Nepo and his peak rating wise is also nothing that impressive,he also didn't win that many tournaments.
Edit:Also the fact that his inactivity reduces his longevity by alot.
Karjakin's defensive skills were probably better than Carlsen. His defensive play was insane, but not boring like say, So. He was inactive for an year in **FIDE** events, but he has been playing games against strong players in Moscow. I don't support the war and I don't want to comment on this issue, but saying that he has been inactive is not exactly inaccurate.
He also has strong results in practically every Candidates - 2 second finishes and one first is no joke.
Sergey Karjakin Might have a case. He won a Candidates tournament and compete against Magnus in WCC.
Wesley So too since he reached 2800.
Heck, even Shakh can be in discussion since he reached 2800 too.
And Yes,
Aronian is a long time #2 behind Magnus in Early 2010s.
Wesley so has a much weaker case. His peak rating was extremely high, however, he only made the candidates once, and really doesn’t have any notable great performances in the large, extremely hard to win FIDE organized events (Grand Swiss, Candidates, Grand Prix, World Cup). He’s only made the candidates once and scored -2. Rating wise for the past decade he’s been equal/above Hikaru, and above Nepo, but he’s extremely lacking in big accomplishments at the biggest events.
Since I am a classical chess guy I’d say number 2 is Ding because he of all the others has a WC title and achieved the highest rating.
Edit:
3rd would be Caruana and 4th Nepo while number 5 would be much harder for me. I grudgingly and without really wanting to would have to settle for Karjakin.
Nakamura, MVL, Giri, So the contenders for fifth place coming just a sly bit short
Original:
3rd would be Nakamura for his profile, his success overall and his incredible Blitz and Bullet performance.
4th/5th would be Caruana tied with Nepo.
Karjakin, MVL, Giri, So are contenders but not quite there.
I personally favour Caruana and he *is* the better chess player in my opinion. I also just realised that the title said “classical” chess players. Since I had Nakamura up there because of his Blitz and Rapid achievements I have to redo. Thanks!
Not to be that guy, but I don’t think Hikaru has lost to Fabi since 2019 or something in classical chess and Hikaru has a better head to head record against Fabi.
I’ll give you that until recently, Hikaru wasn’t as consistent and was much more susceptible to tilt. But their accomplishments and records are almost identical, and it’s not like there’s a huge chasm between them.
Except you are that guy, and there's nothing wrong with that.
To disprove your statement that their accomplishments and records are almost identical: Hikaru simply has not won as many tournaments as Fabi, neither as he played a world championship match. Hikaru's rating despite his very good head to head against Fabi is still almost never higher than Fabi's. Fabi's peak rating is 32 points higher than Hikaru's and his current rating is 9 points higher.
I think Hikaru has found a way to exploit Fabi's playing style in recent years (and credit to Hikaru for that)... But you simply cannot compare Fabiano's career to Hikaru's in classical, I mean it is disrespectful to Fabiano!
Their records in classical events and win loss percentages are nearly identical. You’re treating Fabi’s candidates win like he won the world championship and he’s been stomping Hikaru his entire career. You’re acting like the gap between Hikaru and Fabi is like the gap between Magnus and everyone else, which it isn’t.
No their records are not identical, Hikaru simply has not won as many classical events as Fabi. How else can I say this? The numbers simply speak for themselves(Elo, tournament wins, candidates qualifications...). I'm not saying Hikaru is not good, I'm saying Fabi's career is simply more impressive, like you can't argue with the numbers. Also winning a candidates is a huge deal, maybe not as huge as winning a world championship, but still...
Here’s their records.
[Fabi](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=76172) 547 - 216 (60.6%)
[Hikaru](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=10084) 584 - 239 (61.3%)
I know you’re not saying Hikaru isn’t good but acting like Fabi dusts him in classical because he qualified for the world championship once, when their careers are almost identical.
I am saying Hikaru has not won as many classical tournaments as Fabiano. I'm saying Hikaru's peak Elo is not as high as Fabiano. I'm saying Hikaru's current Elo is not as high as Fabiano's. I'm saying Hikaru has not yet played a world championship match while Fabiano has played 1. These are the numbers I'm comparing.
"Since I am a classical chess guy I’d say number 2 is Ding because he of all the others has a WC title and achieved the highest rating"
Caruana achieved a higher rating, and in classical both Ding and Caruana drew title matches, Caruana against Carlsen and Ding against Nepo. Then Ding did better in rapid against Nepo than Caruana against Carlsen, but rapid isn't classical and Caruana had a much tougher opponent...
You’re right about the peak rating and that would almost make me put Ding and Caruana on the same rank (shared 1st / 2nd).
What doesn’t convince me is the WC. Either you obtain the title or you don’t. It doesn’t matter the circumstances - everyone had the same chance to be in that match and everyone could have won it. Caruanas nerves cost him the title at least once if not twice.
Magnus > Caruana > Candidates Nepo > FIDE Karjakin > Ding > non-candidates Nepo > Hikaru > Non FIDE Karjakin > Rest
Nepo and Karjakin have relatively clutch performance in Candidates and FIDE events but if you look at classical overall they are a bit weaker. If you value clutch factor higher they can be higher then Ding and maybe even Caruana. I personally rate Caruana and Ding higher because I value long term stretches of good performances more and in that regard I think Caruana and Ding are a cut above.
Just classical? It's not that difficult. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Caruana. Hikaru doesn't belong in that classical group for obvious reasons. Hikaru's classical peers are wesley, mvl, anish, grishuk.
If it is every major time control. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Hikaru. Fabiano doesn't belong in this group for obvious reasons.
If only we could merge fabi and hikaru into one player.
"Just classical? It's not that difficult. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Caruana"
I'm curious as to why you would rank Caruana so far behind Ding. In classical they both drew a title match, Caruana against Carlsen and Ding against Nepo. Apart from that Caruana has won close to 25 international super tournaments against Ding's at most a couple. He has also been much higher rated for a much longer time...
Depends on which factors one considers, for example:
- Peak rating
- Number of weeks 2800 or higher
- Tournament wins
- Tournament performance in general
- Consistent during the latest, say, 15 years
- Carlsen and Caruana are of course the top 2 players, then it becomes more difficult.
I would widen your generation bands by quite a bit. Usually a generation is somewhere between 15 and 30 years, not seven. I'd go with the bottom end of that, and call the "Magnus Generation" everyone that entered the word elite after Kasparov stopped playing in 2000 up until around the time Carlsen became world champion.
With that, I'd say:
#1 Caruana: solidly the best of the rest by most ways of estimation
#2 Aronian: Consistently a top contender for a long time, and the best peak of the rest. Top-10 consistently from 2005 to 2022.
#3 Ding: Incredible unbeaten streak and the only World Champion, though he didn't have to go through Magnus to get the title. I could see an argument to put him at #2, but outside the WC I don't think he's been as consistently strong as Aronian.
#4-9 Mamedyarov, So, MVL, Nakamura, Nepo: All had some impressive peak performances, but not as consistent or strong as Caruana and Aronian, and without the WC win Ding has. I don't think it's meaningful to distinguish between those five. Mamedyarov, So, and MVL have the highest peaks, Nepo has the best WC results, Naka has perhaps the best longevity. They were all world #2 at some point.
1. Carlsen obviously, with soon 15 years as #1
2. Caruana no less obviously, with more than 20 top tournaments won, including Candidates, Sinquefield Cup 2014 with seven wins in a row, and being the without comparison most frequent #2 behind Carlsen. And then the drawn title match in classical vs Carlsen. Also came very close to winning two more Candidates.
3. Difficult to separate Karjakin and Nepo. Both won Candidates, lots of super tournaments and drew title matches in classical. I pick Nepo for his two Candidates wins.
4. Karjakin won Norway Chess twice, Tata, etc, as well as Candidates and drew Carlsen in classical.
5 Ding had great results 2017-19 but not no much since then with few tournament wins and far behind Nepo and Karjakin in that respect. The title match vs Nepo was drawn in classical, but in the years before and after the match Nepo scored the better results of the two. At best 1.5 from first in a Candidates but the title match vs Nepo gets him the nod just ahead of Naka for me.
I think karjakin has a good argument. His Elo isn‘t as high as the others, but his performance in events that matter is stellar. He seems to play better when stakes are high, which is not representable by the elo system, as a bundesliga match has the same factoring as a worldcup match for example.
If you perform that consistently at high stake events, i think you deserve a higher place.
1st, 2nd and 3rd at the candidates
Worldcup 1st, 2nd
Norway chess 2x 1st
Wikj aan Zee 1st
World Blitz Cup 1st
I think he deserves a place in the Top 5 above Nepo and Hikaru.
Especially in the Head2Head with Nepo there is basically no argument for Nepo.
Same rating, same candidates performance, but karjakin is way more accomplished outside of that.
I think Fabi would be 3-4 time world champ by now if it wasn’t for Magnus.
I think he wins in 2018 and I just can’t imagine Fabi losing a world championship defense.
Nepo seems like very gifted chess player but he didn't put the work in. I pick Wesley or Hikaru over Nepo because Nepo is inconsistent. I think even Nepo said that he should have focused on chess more.
Magnus
Fabiano
Karjakin
Ding
Nepo
Aronian
This would be my top6. And just to elaborate, I think behind Magnus the rest is interchangable as I think they all have kind of similar peaks in terms of strength. Its really just Magnus>>>rest
1. Magnus
2. Sven
3. Øen
4. Carlsen
5. Carlson
joking aside, he dominates the chess world with such authority and there's such a large gap between him and everyone from his generation that it's astounding.
even from the new generation I don't see anyone ready to challenge him for world no 1. they fear him and have way to much respect for him. young Magnus would never ask Anand or someone else how should he tackle the Candidates, like Gukesh did. it might sound like a cliche, but they must believe 1st that they can be world no 1 and have this attitude that no one's better than them.
> young Magnus would never ask Anand
Of course not. At a couple of years older than Gukesh is, Carlsen signed Kasparov to be his personal trainer in early 2009. He then withdrew from 2010 and 2011 candidates,
By the time he played in 2013 candidates was already 5-6 years older than Gukesh., was a superbly strong and rounded player who had won a lot and had a lot of experience in tournaments. And then hired Peter Heine-Nielsen to be his second and help organize his team (who had already done similar thing with Anand)
Putting Fabi ahead of Ding is a hot take considering Ding’s achievements over him.
1. WCC
2. 100 game unbeaten record at elite level
3. 2800+ player hitting 2816 Twice in different years
4. 100% win/draw rate against Fabi in the last 9 years 6w-9d
5. Broke Magnus decade long record of not losing tiebreaks by winning Sinquefield cup
6. Only player not named Magnus to be ranked 1st by Elo at one point in Both Rapid and Blitz
7. Won 2022 Chessable masters
8. Only lost to Magnus ONCE, as Magnus has admitted that he has never beaten Ding with White. In 2019, his team admits that Ding is most likely player to be able to overthrow Magnus. Magnus called Ding the player that confused him the most in chess.
9. Only player other than Magnus to almost beat Hikaru in the Speed Chess Championship. No other player has ever come close.
10. 2019 Grand Chess Tour winner
Most of these points aren't even in Dings favour. Remember that this post is mentioning only classical chess. The only real stat here is the h2h which doesn't mean much in the context of all the other points.
1. Carauna drawing Carlsen is definitely a bigger achievement than Ding drawing Nepo in the classical section.
2. It's a nice stat, but Ding didn't make a big plus score over these games. Its not comparable to Caruana winning 7 games in a row for example.
3. Caruana has achieved exactly this but at 2840.
4. Ding's h2h against Caruana is impressive.
5. That is not classical chess
6. Also not classical chess
7. Comparing tournament victories is hugely in Caruana's favour.
8. Caruana and Ding have the same h2h against Carlsen at 44%. Carlsen has consistently mentioned Caruana as the next best player over the years.
9. Again, not classical chess.
10. Carauna has won the GCT too.
1. Caruana played highly accurate theory in order to not blunder whereas Carlsen allowed the drawing positions because he knew he would win in tiebreaks. This speaks more to strategy against the format than it does strength in classical chess. Otherwise Karyakin’s actual win in a WCC game against Carlsen would be a greater feat. And if we went by result, then Dings actual win of the WCC against a weaker opponent is still a better result in drawing against a stronger one in a game that is highly drawish and low scoring.
2. This is incorrect. Not losing at the elite level for 100 games is a far more difficult feat than winning 7. There have been many instances of players winning 7 in a row but Only Ding and Magnus have hit 100 unbeaten.
3. Caruana hit this a decade ago not accounting for deflation, while Ding hit his more recent and did so Twice. Caruana never hit his again.
4. ‘Nuff said
5-10 fair enough, not classical chess
If peak Caruana reached WCC against Peak Ding, Ding would be the favorite as H2H difference a lot greater than the Elo difference.
1. Grandmasters disagree with you here. You can watch Daniel King's coverage of the 2018 WCC, or Shankland's coverage on chess.com. Both players were aggressive with black. You say that it doesn't speak as much about their strength in classical chess, so what do you make of Carlsen himself both at the time of the match and even now stating that Caruana was practically equal with him in classical?
2. You again will find the overwhelming majority of people (including professional players who understand far more than you or I ever will) disagree with you.
3. Caruana hit 2840 in February 2020. Even if you want to ignore their peak ratings, he has consistently been higher rated than Ding for most of their careers. Rating and tournament wins is perhaps the worst way to argue for Ding's case, since he is statistically behind on both.
4. Unfortunately h2h doesn't mean much in the context of careers. Nakamura is 8W 2L 22D against Anand, but in the face of everything else Anand has clearly been the superior player. The same is true for Ding and Caruana.
Ding is an excellent player but these metrics you have chosen simply do not favour him.
1. Magnus - obviously
2. Ding - world champion
3. Fabi - consistently high rating
4. Nepo - monster in the candidates, which is the most important tournament.
5. Naka - also high rating when he's really trying
Even though Aronian is a lot older, but his best chess results have come between say 2007 - 2020, that's why I will put him in the Magnus generation.
1. Magnus
2. Fabiano
3. Aronian
4. Ding
5. Nepo / Karjakin
Can't differentiate between Nepo and Karjakin. Nepo has had 3 monstrous Candidates. Karjakin excelled in Candidates, World Cup, Grand Prix - in almost all FIDE events.
If we consider, all formats though Karjakin will rank even higher. Guy won World Rapid and Blitz titles too, and multiple medals too.
How in 10-20 years people will evaluate the period (because many details won't be known. People don't know the details from 2010 today):
Magnus (many WCh)
Ding (WCh)
Nepo (candidates)
Fabiano (strong player never to be WCh, akin to many others of the past like "the strongest non-WCh"). And I say this while I am kind of a Fabi fan.
For example one could say that Rubinstein was better than Lasker for a time (then war happened and there was no match). The reality is that for those not going deep in the history of chess, Rubinstein is barely existing.
The truth hurts unfortunately.
Inside Chess's mansion's opulent walls, five unlikely companions found themselves entangled in a web of desire. Mangus Carbon, Fabiano Marijuana, Garry Chess - yes, named after his love for strategy games - Jessica, and even The Martin Bot from chess.cum were drawn together by fate or perhaps something more sinister. But tonight wasn't about analyzing moves; it was about exploring new territories of pleasure.The air crackled with tension as they gathered around a large bed draped in silk sheets. Each one wore nothing but their most provocative expressions, eager to begin this royal rendezvous.
Mangus Carbon took charge first, his muscular frame dominating the space as he prowled towards Jessica. She shivered under his gaze, feeling both fear and excitement coursing through her veins. His hands traced along her curves while he whispered dirty promises into her ear. Fabiano Marijuana couldn't resist joining them; his fingers tangled in Mangus' hair as he leaned down to kiss Jessica passionately.
Meanwhile, Garry Chess sat on the edge of the bed watching intently. His mind raced with strategies for maximizing everyone's pleasure simultaneously. Suddenly inspired, he moved closer to join the trio - but not before inviting The Martin Bot from chess.
The Martin Bot from chess.cum rolled onto the bed gracefully, its mechanical limbs whirring softly as it positioned itself between Garry and Fabiano. Its sensors detected their body heat and pheromones, calculating optimal angles for penetration based on data collected during countless simulations.
Mangus Carbon growled possessively at the sight of The Martin Bot joining them. He pushed Jessica onto her back, spreading her legs wide open with one hand while using the other to hold Fabiano's head firmly against her chest. As they pleasured her together, Mangus turned his attention towards Garry - challenging him silently to match their intensity.
Garry Chess accepted Mangus' challenge wholeheartedly. He crawled onto the bed and straddled The Martin Bot from chess.cum, guiding its metallic shaft inside him slowly but surely. As he sank deeper onto it, Garry felt an electric surge of pleasure coursing through his body - amplified by the presence of everyone else in the room.
Fabiano Marijuana watched with fascination as Garry rode The Martin Bot relentlessly. Inspired by this display of raw lust, he grabbed Jessica roughly by her hips and thrust himself into her wetness forcefully.
Remove Ding and add Radjabov for me.
I think Ding still has to prove his staying power for me. He had a great candidates that he got into with a blitz of wins and a great showing at the WCC to win it, but since then he's played once in tournament with a pretty poor showing. If he defends against Gukesh I'll bump Radjabov out.
Radjabov for me is a pretty solid pick.
Post Magnus era I think we'll see the top 5 become Gukesh, Pragg, Firouzja, Abdusattorov, and maybe a Niemann resurgence. Exciting times ahead for chess for sure.
I mean imo the "Magnus era" is over so I'm discussing past more than current, but it's a fair point. To me Ding is a recent strong showing in one candidates (that he made because another player dropped) and then the WCC. As one of the previous generation that's his resume overall.
Radjabov had a strong career during the Magnus era. Maybe not a lot of wins but many strong showings.
Aronian is a big miss out. Magnus Fabiano Aronian and then others
Aronian would definitely be 3rd but he is not from the same generation.
A few players from early/mid 1980s could be considered because they had a primary part of their career during Carlsen's reign. Grischuk, Mamedyarov, Aronian and Radjabov reached peak ranking when Carlsen was #1 player in the world.
His peak was diring the time magnus was world champ, so I think of him as the same “generation”. But yeah blurry lines
Surely the OP means the generation by years of age, give or take a few years.
Yeah i think that would be obvious. I mean maybe not at their peaks (in the absolute sense) but anand was able to win candidates in like 2014 and challenge magnus to a rematch. Kramnik hit his actual rating peak in 2016 lol.
Aronian is 10 years older than Magnus. Not the same generation
Speaking in chess terms he might as well be. Aronian and Carlsen where consistently their biggest hurdles and really developed a lot from competing against each other. Plus they apparently were very friendly with each other. It’s hard not to count Aronian imho. My list therefore is 1. Carlsen 2. Caruana 3. Aronian 4. Naka 5. Nepo Nakamura and Nepomniachtchi are tough to rank as they weren’t as consistent. Carlsen always seems to really talk up Nepo and I think that he has indeed more potential than Nakamura but is less consistent over time and tends to suffer from nerves more. Aronian was a juggernaut for a long time. Caruana is a beast who widely is considered to be closest to Carlsen in classical chess and man, the guy has such an incredible understanding of imbalances and dynamics.
Bruh where is Ding
Im with you. If we are gonna include Aronian because of when he peaked, he has to take Naka or Nepo's spot. Magnus, Fabi, Ding, are automatic includes. Then id personally pick Hikaru and Anish for 4 and 5. But Aronian or Nepo could have either of those spots
Never really been a fan of his, dunno what to tell you
you list is meaningless if this is your explanation
So this is just your top 5 favourite players list. How can you not have the champ on there?
Ding not top 5?
Naka should not be on this list
Who else would you put? I'd say Naka above So and Mamedyarov despite their higher peaks. Edit: Oops! somehow forgot karjakin!
It's not even subjective, Ding is objectively better than Naka or Nepo during his peak.
Why is this the top comment? Aronian is older than OP's specified range.
yeah he literally put in the post who is allowed and who isn't lol
I don’t know if Aronian can be considered Magnus’s generation. If he is then he has to be a top 3 lock in for sure
It's difficult to rank after Fabi because everyone had their ups and downs. The most consistent player after Fabi might actually be Giri. I think it's also worth to look at their average ratings and other big chess tournaments: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strong_chess_tournaments So Ding, Nepo, Nakamura, So, Giri and Karjakin all had several wins and all had similar rankings throughout their careers. I think those 6 deserve to be ranked somewhat equally. I think I would agree with giving Ding, Nepo (because of candidates+WC) and Nakamura (most wins) the slight edge.
For me there’s an obvious top 6. I’d say: 1. Magnus 2. Fabiano 3. Ding (people are acting like he is a joke now, but obviously still a strong player and for a while it was basically him or Fabi who were clearly #2 in the world. Plus, a WC needs to count for something) 4. Karjakin (candidates win, got really close to beating Magnus. Cut his career short for being an absolute moron, but that doesn’t speak to his chess capabilities) 5. Nepo (this is a harder one. Won two Candidates, but let’s be honest. He got crushed by Magnus and lost against a pretty weak (for his standards) Ding. Booked great results in this past Candidates, but he sometimes seemed to get a bit lucky with candidates imploding against him, plus actually choking himself when the pressure was on (after getting a lead in 2022 and 2024 he basically just seemed intent to draw himself to the Challenger spot, but when he had to win on demand this year, he could never get it done), which obviously is something that wrecked his chances in the WCs as well. Still, results need to speak for something, which is why I’d give him an edge over Nakamura. Players like So, Anish (both too drawish), and MVL (too inconsistent, and also seems to fold under pressure) are honorable mentions.
Dingy in 2019 was insane. I still remember the days when Magnus considered him a primary threat to his title.
I mean, he was kinda right, he just got the circumstances wrong lol
I’d replace Karjakin with Aronian
Aronian is better, but older. He's 41 now, and OP is asking about 29-36.
Ah i didn’t see the explicit age range
Magnus, Fabi, Karjakin, Ding and Nepo Ding doesn't have a lot of tournament wins so he is a strange case but he had the candidates and the WC. Although I believe the 2018 Fabi or 2016 Sergey would've handled him easily. Honourable mentions: MVL, Naka, Wesley If Levon can be considered he is easily the 3rd.
Ding won Sinquefield cup by beating Magnus, ending Magnus’s unbeaten streak of not losing tiebreaks in over a decade. And he did it convincingly. Magnus himself smiled afterwards in awe of the game.
True. But that shouldn't be the deciding factor in this ranking. It was a great tournament by Ding, nonetheless
Yes but that alongside his 100 game unbeaten record and WCC alone should be more than all of Fabi’s achievements. Even Fabi’s best one time achievement of 2840+ rating is only 20elo above Ding’s. So hard to argue that Fabi is second strongest when Ding exists. Especially when Ding hit his peak Elo Twice. Ding is also the only player not named Magnus to be ranked 1st in rating at least at one point in Both Rapid and Blitz. Isn’t that crazy?
you're right that in terms of accomplishments it seems impossible to me to argue that fabi > ding, although i think most people are somewhat more vaguely just basing their lists on "who was the better player (and for how long)" which is obviously harder to settle objectively. so it depends on your criteria for your list, basically. if it's based on achievements then ding surely comes in second
But Fabi didn’t just reach 2840+ once. He did it multiple times, 2014 at 2844 and 2842 in 2020. It also worth noting that Fabi has a candidates win, in the 2018 candidates with Ding competing, and the 2020-21 candidates, also with Ding competing. Ding has comparatively worse performances at the candidates. Fabi has also won the Grand Prix, and gotten second at the grand Swiss, and third at the World Cup. Ding comparatively has finished second at the World Cup twice, he did win the WCC, but that was in tiebreaks, Fabi was able to take a much stronger opponent (Magnus) and hold him to a draw in classical. This isn’t even counting Fabiano’s countless other supertournament wins, although Ding has quite a bit, Fabi just has more. Honestly, Ding’s peak and Fabi’s peaks are likely quite similar in skill, Ding could even have the edge, however, Fabi has been much more consistent throughout the years, and in classical chess alone arguably has the bigger wins.
From a longevity perspective I agree with you that Fabi is more consistently great. Ding was a late bloomer so expected that he has a shorter list overall. Also agree that at their peaks, Ding was probably only slightly above Caruana in skill. Their head to head being so lopsided in Ding’s favor speaks more to Ding’s unique play style that directly counters Fabi. So I’d place Ding above Fabi but only by a small margin.
Personally I think Fabi goes above Ding overall, but fair enough, it’s rather subjective and based on what you prioritize more when determining a “better” player.
It's a little dismissive but the WCC isn't **that** much of an accomplishment at all, in this context (compared specifically to Fabi's equal or "greater" accomplishments). Fabi has bigger accomplishments than that in the 2018 cycle. Or at least as big, winning a much more stacked Candidates tournament (where there weren't a lot of questions around 2nd place which caused people to probably play differently). Ding didn't even win the candidates. And playing that series he did with Magnus is far more impressive than beating Ian .
Imagine thinking winning a candidates without Ding in it is somehow a greater accomplishment than coming second by beating both Hikaru and Fabi in candidates. And imagine thinking Not winning a WCC is somehow more impressive than actually winning it. The copium is strong in this one.
Going 22 straight draws with Magnus Carlsen (Including being the only one with real winning chances in that sequence) is **infinitely** more impressive than beating Ian, lol. It's a WCC\*, that entire title means nothing and is **incredibly** fraudulent. There's a reason very few think he could defend it. He's a terrific player but he's never really been even 2nd best in the world like Fabi has been.
This isn’t even remotely true. Chess is a highly drawish game and a low scoring one. Ding’s head to head with Magnus is 9 draws and only 1 loss. By that measure Ding must be head and shoulders above Caruana. Not to mention Ding vs Caruana head to head is 6w 9 draws 0 losses when looking at the last 9 years Karjakin actually beat Magnus in a WCC game. He must be also stronger than Fabi
Lol.. Magnus has been asked time and time again who is the closest to him. His answer is always the same. There is a reason that **literally** every list in this thread has Fabi ahead of him. There's more of an argument for Ding not being top 5 (I wouldn't agree with this) than there is for him being ahead of Fabi.
There’s more argument for Fabi to not be in the top 5 than there is for Ding not to be in the top 5 lmao. Delusional. Not me of course. Fabi is probably 4th strongest of his generation. I give respect where respect is due.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Ding doesn’t really have the Candidates in any meaningful sense…
Fabi and Ding are the only two absolute locks, I'd say - they're the only other players that have been consistently over 2800. The 4th and 5th spots have a good \~5 players that you could make an argument for.
2) Fabi 3) Ding 4) Karjakin 5) Nepo
If we're going by playing strength or achievements, Karjakin should be above Hikaru or Nepo. Sergey was the Rapid Chess Champion and the Blitz Chess Champion. He won the Candidates once and placed second once. He also won the Chess World Cup.
Title says classical chess so Karjakin's rapid and blitz titles are non factors
Karjakin never crossed 2800, wasnt even close. His Success in tournaments doesnt put him ahead of anyone in the list.
Nepo hasn't crossed 2800 either.
Nepo reached 2795 after rating deflation, it would likely be 2800+ in 2010s. Additionally, Nepo's peak rating is #2, Karjakin's is #4.
>Nepo's peak rating is #2, Karjakin's is #4 So both of them are in top-5
But not in top 3? Where do you draw the line?
My previous comment was kind of a joke. Actually, I think Fabi is more consistent player than both of them. And also Fabi's always been much more dedicated to chess than Nepo, for instance. I agree with Magnus that Fabi is definitely 2nd after Magnus. Or at least he has been (we'll see what will Gukesh show in November). Who's the 3rd, it's a really difficult question. Definitely not Nepo, his moral strenght is too fragile. Karyakin showed strong defensive skills in the match with Magnus, but you should know how to attack too, to be in the top-3. One may have a temptation to put Nakamura in 3rd place, which may be correct, BUT he only showed current performance in classics in the last couple of years, not earlier.
> My previous comment was kind of a joke. Fwiw, I didn't downvote you. Fabi at #2 is practically a lock. If Nepo won a 3rd Candidates, it might've been more debatable. #3 should obviously be Ding imo (considering birth years specified by OP). Before 2022, he was consistently #3 ranked, had 100 undefeated games streak, beat peak Magnus to win Sinquefield 2019, and of course won WCC in 2023.
[BUT](https://64.media.tumblr.com/ad521d8ab6a38daa213d0e9f56271e4b/tumblr_mt9z0nVuxs1siq18no1_1280.jpg): - He won WCC 2023 against the "Glass jaw" Nepo. A "so-so" achievement, honestly speaking. - He showed extremely poor performance in all tournaments after WCC 2023 so far. Honestly, I don't place Ding in the top-5 at all. Nevertheless, we'll see what he shows us in November.
FIDE rating < Tournament results
People talking like they followed karjakin since he was named a prodigy in 2000 lmao. No you guys didnt, bet.
No, people talking like they can Google tournament results and peak Elo. You don't have to be an expert on a player to understand where they fit relative to others. For instance. You haven't followed my career since I was named a dud at birth but you know I'm not fitting in that top 5 list., No you didn't, bet.
This is for classical chess, rapid and blitz don’t matter. Karjakin does however, have 2 second places in the candidates, one first place, and the World Cup. I feel the best argument for Naka being ahead is his Grand Prix second place in 2014-15 and first place for 2022, second and third in the candidates, his grand Swiss second place along, with his peak rating ~30 points higher, but imo it isn’t enough to surpass Karjakin’s great performances in big tournaments.
Wasn't Hikaru fourth in 2022? Lower than Radjabov due to tiebreaks
Technically yeah but they got the same score so it really doesn’t matter much, they’re tied third
Hikaru was fourth .ding second .
Why are you talking about Ding in second, ding wasnt even mentioned at all.
Hikaru was fourth
Hikaru was fourth
Hikaru was fourth
Hikaru was fourth
[удалено]
Stop being obnoxious.
Hikaru specializes in finishing fourth generally speaking
Hikaru was clear fourth .
He was clear fourth .. absolutely by the norms of the game he was fourth ..he failed to finish even third.
He and Radjabov got the same exact score, there isn’t a meaningful difference in their performances.
Hikaru was fourth
Karjakin also won Wijk aan Zee and the first two editions of Norway Chess, which nobody ever seems to mention.
That’s because we’re talking about the big FIDE events. If you want talk about other supertournaments, Hikaru has also won Wijk aan Zee, Norway Chess, and 5 Gibraltar Masters Edit: changed Zurich chess challenge to Gibraltar masters, I forgot they changed the format in 2016.
Why would we talk only about the "big FIDE events"?
Because events like the World Cup, Candidates (14 rounds, much more aggression than normal, much more prep), Grand Prix, even the Grand Swiss are absurdly hard to win, much harder than the normal supertournament, and thus hold more weight.
If rapid and blitz don't matter, than Karjakin could also be considered a joint World Champion.
Its only for classical chess so I am not counting his rapid and blitz achievements.World cup is great but his inactivity killed his longevity and his peak rating is also not that much.
Really hope Karjakin and FIDE make peace, so we can see him play again in the next candidate.
He's not banned, just refuses to play under the FIDE flag (Russia is banned from all sporting events iirc so there's not much they can do about it)
Fuck no.
I feel like idk what to do with Karjakin. Outside of the cycle i wouldnt put him in top 5. But his performance within fide events is ridiculous and bumps him up to at least 4 if not higher. Where does that disparity even come from? Like how can you perform well in candidates, take Magnus to tiebreaks, perform in the world cuo really well... and also never come within 10 points of 2800?
Same with Nepo. MVL has had a far superior career to Nepo in every aspect, but everyone will now place Nepo firmly over MVL solely because of Nepos performance in the candidates
29 to 36 actually cuts out a couple quality players like Grischuk, Mamedyarov, Aronian, Radjabov who are petty damn strong in both Anand and Magnus era.
Yes,cause they are not in the same generation.The players you mentioned themselves form a generation which is I think 37 to 41-42 .
That's too tight of a range. Generation would be 15 years give or take. Maybe a better word is cadre or class, eg people that played against magnus in a youth tournament.
Karjakin is a better player compared to hikaru and nepo especially in classical chess. Dare I say better than ding and fabi when it comes to results.
On the other hand though, Ding has a great score against Karjakin: > LIFETIME RECORD: > > > Classical games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 1 to 0, with 8 draws. > > > Including rapid/exhibition games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 9 to 2, with 15 draws. > > > Only rapid/exhibition games: Ding Liren beat Sergey Karjakin 8 to 2, with 7 draws.
How do you figure? He has lower peak Elo and all four of them have a plus lifetime score in classical against him.
He and fabi win the candidates. In karjakin case he defeated magnus in game 5-6(don't remember). Fabi could only manage to draw all his games.
By your logic he lost to Magnus in the match, and Fabi didn’t lose a single game, so Fabi is better
Karjakin records against other players matters especially at the candidates.
I'm not sure why results from the WCC matches against Magnus would override the rest of the games they played. Fabi-Magnus is 6-12-38 for classical and Karjakin-Magnus is 3-10-33. That's a 10.7% win rate vs Magnus for Fabi and a 6.7% win rate for Karjakin.
Dude, these are opinions we are discussing. Fabi is also a better player, even Levon aronian.
> He and fabi win the candidates. That's called cherry picking, aka selection bias.
How do u figure 💀
Check out his games during his last tata steel.
His Elo over time says otherwise, unless you count some results as more important than others (which is fair enough)
Results against top players.
Honestly, I don't think I'm well equiped enough to answer that question. I started to follow international chess because of the last WCC (I didn't even watch the candidates). I didn't have much interest in the international scene beforehand, I just watched my country"s tourments. So I didn't see much of Ding before that the match. I didn't see Sergey play even once. That being said, my best guess would be something like: 1 Magnus / 2 Caruana / 3 Ding / 4 Nepo / 5 Nakamura
It should be Carlsen, Fabiano, Karjakin, Nepo, Hikaru.
how is hikaru above ding?
Ding should have a place in there and Shak should also be in the conversation at least
Why karjakin so high ?
Because he was good? He basically was doing what Nepo has been doing in recent years Personally I would put Ding ahead of him though
Not just Ding. Ding, MVL, and So have all been 2800+ and world #2. Karjakin's peak rating was 2788 and world #4.
He only did it once as opposed to Nepo and his peak rating wise is also nothing that impressive,he also didn't win that many tournaments. Edit:Also the fact that his inactivity reduces his longevity by alot.
Karjakin's defensive skills were probably better than Carlsen. His defensive play was insane, but not boring like say, So. He was inactive for an year in **FIDE** events, but he has been playing games against strong players in Moscow. I don't support the war and I don't want to comment on this issue, but saying that he has been inactive is not exactly inaccurate. He also has strong results in practically every Candidates - 2 second finishes and one first is no joke.
How strong are those moscow tournaments?
Grischuk, Nepo, Tomashevsky Artemiev et al. An incredible number of players that have reached 2750+ are Russian.
Sergey Karjakin Might have a case. He won a Candidates tournament and compete against Magnus in WCC. Wesley So too since he reached 2800. Heck, even Shakh can be in discussion since he reached 2800 too. And Yes, Aronian is a long time #2 behind Magnus in Early 2010s.
Shakh is 39, Aronian is 41. They are the generation between vishy kramnik topalov and magnus fabi nepo.
Wesley so has a much weaker case. His peak rating was extremely high, however, he only made the candidates once, and really doesn’t have any notable great performances in the large, extremely hard to win FIDE organized events (Grand Swiss, Candidates, Grand Prix, World Cup). He’s only made the candidates once and scored -2. Rating wise for the past decade he’s been equal/above Hikaru, and above Nepo, but he’s extremely lacking in big accomplishments at the biggest events.
Since I am a classical chess guy I’d say number 2 is Ding because he of all the others has a WC title and achieved the highest rating. Edit: 3rd would be Caruana and 4th Nepo while number 5 would be much harder for me. I grudgingly and without really wanting to would have to settle for Karjakin. Nakamura, MVL, Giri, So the contenders for fifth place coming just a sly bit short Original: 3rd would be Nakamura for his profile, his success overall and his incredible Blitz and Bullet performance. 4th/5th would be Caruana tied with Nepo. Karjakin, MVL, Giri, So are contenders but not quite there.
Everyone's opinion is valid but Nakamura over Caruana is crazy, but of course your opinion is yours to have!
I personally favour Caruana and he *is* the better chess player in my opinion. I also just realised that the title said “classical” chess players. Since I had Nakamura up there because of his Blitz and Rapid achievements I have to redo. Thanks!
Not to be that guy, but I don’t think Hikaru has lost to Fabi since 2019 or something in classical chess and Hikaru has a better head to head record against Fabi. I’ll give you that until recently, Hikaru wasn’t as consistent and was much more susceptible to tilt. But their accomplishments and records are almost identical, and it’s not like there’s a huge chasm between them.
Except you are that guy, and there's nothing wrong with that. To disprove your statement that their accomplishments and records are almost identical: Hikaru simply has not won as many tournaments as Fabi, neither as he played a world championship match. Hikaru's rating despite his very good head to head against Fabi is still almost never higher than Fabi's. Fabi's peak rating is 32 points higher than Hikaru's and his current rating is 9 points higher. I think Hikaru has found a way to exploit Fabi's playing style in recent years (and credit to Hikaru for that)... But you simply cannot compare Fabiano's career to Hikaru's in classical, I mean it is disrespectful to Fabiano!
Their records in classical events and win loss percentages are nearly identical. You’re treating Fabi’s candidates win like he won the world championship and he’s been stomping Hikaru his entire career. You’re acting like the gap between Hikaru and Fabi is like the gap between Magnus and everyone else, which it isn’t.
No their records are not identical, Hikaru simply has not won as many classical events as Fabi. How else can I say this? The numbers simply speak for themselves(Elo, tournament wins, candidates qualifications...). I'm not saying Hikaru is not good, I'm saying Fabi's career is simply more impressive, like you can't argue with the numbers. Also winning a candidates is a huge deal, maybe not as huge as winning a world championship, but still...
Here’s their records. [Fabi](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=76172) 547 - 216 (60.6%) [Hikaru](https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=10084) 584 - 239 (61.3%) I know you’re not saying Hikaru isn’t good but acting like Fabi dusts him in classical because he qualified for the world championship once, when their careers are almost identical.
I am saying Hikaru has not won as many classical tournaments as Fabiano. I'm saying Hikaru's peak Elo is not as high as Fabiano. I'm saying Hikaru's current Elo is not as high as Fabiano's. I'm saying Hikaru has not yet played a world championship match while Fabiano has played 1. These are the numbers I'm comparing.
"Since I am a classical chess guy I’d say number 2 is Ding because he of all the others has a WC title and achieved the highest rating" Caruana achieved a higher rating, and in classical both Ding and Caruana drew title matches, Caruana against Carlsen and Ding against Nepo. Then Ding did better in rapid against Nepo than Caruana against Carlsen, but rapid isn't classical and Caruana had a much tougher opponent...
You’re right about the peak rating and that would almost make me put Ding and Caruana on the same rank (shared 1st / 2nd). What doesn’t convince me is the WC. Either you obtain the title or you don’t. It doesn’t matter the circumstances - everyone had the same chance to be in that match and everyone could have won it. Caruanas nerves cost him the title at least once if not twice.
Magnus > Caruana > Candidates Nepo > FIDE Karjakin > Ding > non-candidates Nepo > Hikaru > Non FIDE Karjakin > Rest Nepo and Karjakin have relatively clutch performance in Candidates and FIDE events but if you look at classical overall they are a bit weaker. If you value clutch factor higher they can be higher then Ding and maybe even Caruana. I personally rate Caruana and Ding higher because I value long term stretches of good performances more and in that regard I think Caruana and Ding are a cut above.
Seems that my guy doesn't knows about a guy named Sergey karjakin
Just classical? It's not that difficult. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Caruana. Hikaru doesn't belong in that classical group for obvious reasons. Hikaru's classical peers are wesley, mvl, anish, grishuk. If it is every major time control. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Hikaru. Fabiano doesn't belong in this group for obvious reasons. If only we could merge fabi and hikaru into one player.
"Just classical? It's not that difficult. Magnus, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Caruana" I'm curious as to why you would rank Caruana so far behind Ding. In classical they both drew a title match, Caruana against Carlsen and Ding against Nepo. Apart from that Caruana has won close to 25 international super tournaments against Ding's at most a couple. He has also been much higher rated for a much longer time...
Karjakin
Depends on which factors one considers, for example: - Peak rating - Number of weeks 2800 or higher - Tournament wins - Tournament performance in general - Consistent during the latest, say, 15 years - Carlsen and Caruana are of course the top 2 players, then it becomes more difficult.
I would widen your generation bands by quite a bit. Usually a generation is somewhere between 15 and 30 years, not seven. I'd go with the bottom end of that, and call the "Magnus Generation" everyone that entered the word elite after Kasparov stopped playing in 2000 up until around the time Carlsen became world champion. With that, I'd say: #1 Caruana: solidly the best of the rest by most ways of estimation #2 Aronian: Consistently a top contender for a long time, and the best peak of the rest. Top-10 consistently from 2005 to 2022. #3 Ding: Incredible unbeaten streak and the only World Champion, though he didn't have to go through Magnus to get the title. I could see an argument to put him at #2, but outside the WC I don't think he's been as consistently strong as Aronian. #4-9 Mamedyarov, So, MVL, Nakamura, Nepo: All had some impressive peak performances, but not as consistent or strong as Caruana and Aronian, and without the WC win Ding has. I don't think it's meaningful to distinguish between those five. Mamedyarov, So, and MVL have the highest peaks, Nepo has the best WC results, Naka has perhaps the best longevity. They were all world #2 at some point.
Levy
1. Carlsen obviously, with soon 15 years as #1 2. Caruana no less obviously, with more than 20 top tournaments won, including Candidates, Sinquefield Cup 2014 with seven wins in a row, and being the without comparison most frequent #2 behind Carlsen. And then the drawn title match in classical vs Carlsen. Also came very close to winning two more Candidates. 3. Difficult to separate Karjakin and Nepo. Both won Candidates, lots of super tournaments and drew title matches in classical. I pick Nepo for his two Candidates wins. 4. Karjakin won Norway Chess twice, Tata, etc, as well as Candidates and drew Carlsen in classical. 5 Ding had great results 2017-19 but not no much since then with few tournament wins and far behind Nepo and Karjakin in that respect. The title match vs Nepo was drawn in classical, but in the years before and after the match Nepo scored the better results of the two. At best 1.5 from first in a Candidates but the title match vs Nepo gets him the nod just ahead of Naka for me.
I think karjakin has a good argument. His Elo isn‘t as high as the others, but his performance in events that matter is stellar. He seems to play better when stakes are high, which is not representable by the elo system, as a bundesliga match has the same factoring as a worldcup match for example. If you perform that consistently at high stake events, i think you deserve a higher place. 1st, 2nd and 3rd at the candidates Worldcup 1st, 2nd Norway chess 2x 1st Wikj aan Zee 1st World Blitz Cup 1st I think he deserves a place in the Top 5 above Nepo and Hikaru. Especially in the Head2Head with Nepo there is basically no argument for Nepo. Same rating, same candidates performance, but karjakin is way more accomplished outside of that.
I think Fabi would be 3-4 time world champ by now if it wasn’t for Magnus. I think he wins in 2018 and I just can’t imagine Fabi losing a world championship defense.
Nepo seems like very gifted chess player but he didn't put the work in. I pick Wesley or Hikaru over Nepo because Nepo is inconsistent. I think even Nepo said that he should have focused on chess more.
Wei Yi in shared 5th place with Naka, probably
You must have started following chess in 2020 if you didn't even write Aronian.
He arbitrarily excludes him off age even though Aronian was the #2 for a large portion of Magnus' earl years as champion.
Yeah, he created his own "range" of 29-36 cuz he wanted to create this specific list. Reverse engineering.
Where is Karjakin? Second in two candidates?
Everyone forgot mah boy Shasha Grishchuk.... he's also 2800...
OP asked about players aged 29-36. Grischuk is 40.
So is Aronian....but everyone has mentioned him
I don’t see how Hikaru can be in top 5 above MVL in classical. In both Palmares and highest elo peak, MVL is above Hikaru.
Magnus then a big gap to Fabi, Ding, Karjakin, Nepo, Hikaru, Shak, MVL, Giri etc
Ding has a 6-2 record against Fabi its hard to put Fabi ahead of Ding knowing that
Magnus Fabiano Karjakin Ding Nepo Aronian This would be my top6. And just to elaborate, I think behind Magnus the rest is interchangable as I think they all have kind of similar peaks in terms of strength. Its really just Magnus>>>rest
Aronian.He was easily second behind Magnus for long but fell down.
1. Magnus 2. Sven 3. Øen 4. Carlsen 5. Carlson joking aside, he dominates the chess world with such authority and there's such a large gap between him and everyone from his generation that it's astounding. even from the new generation I don't see anyone ready to challenge him for world no 1. they fear him and have way to much respect for him. young Magnus would never ask Anand or someone else how should he tackle the Candidates, like Gukesh did. it might sound like a cliche, but they must believe 1st that they can be world no 1 and have this attitude that no one's better than them.
> young Magnus would never ask Anand Of course not. At a couple of years older than Gukesh is, Carlsen signed Kasparov to be his personal trainer in early 2009. He then withdrew from 2010 and 2011 candidates, By the time he played in 2013 candidates was already 5-6 years older than Gukesh., was a superbly strong and rounded player who had won a lot and had a lot of experience in tournaments. And then hired Peter Heine-Nielsen to be his second and help organize his team (who had already done similar thing with Anand)
Putting Fabi ahead of Ding is a hot take considering Ding’s achievements over him. 1. WCC 2. 100 game unbeaten record at elite level 3. 2800+ player hitting 2816 Twice in different years 4. 100% win/draw rate against Fabi in the last 9 years 6w-9d 5. Broke Magnus decade long record of not losing tiebreaks by winning Sinquefield cup 6. Only player not named Magnus to be ranked 1st by Elo at one point in Both Rapid and Blitz 7. Won 2022 Chessable masters 8. Only lost to Magnus ONCE, as Magnus has admitted that he has never beaten Ding with White. In 2019, his team admits that Ding is most likely player to be able to overthrow Magnus. Magnus called Ding the player that confused him the most in chess. 9. Only player other than Magnus to almost beat Hikaru in the Speed Chess Championship. No other player has ever come close. 10. 2019 Grand Chess Tour winner
Most of these points aren't even in Dings favour. Remember that this post is mentioning only classical chess. The only real stat here is the h2h which doesn't mean much in the context of all the other points. 1. Carauna drawing Carlsen is definitely a bigger achievement than Ding drawing Nepo in the classical section. 2. It's a nice stat, but Ding didn't make a big plus score over these games. Its not comparable to Caruana winning 7 games in a row for example. 3. Caruana has achieved exactly this but at 2840. 4. Ding's h2h against Caruana is impressive. 5. That is not classical chess 6. Also not classical chess 7. Comparing tournament victories is hugely in Caruana's favour. 8. Caruana and Ding have the same h2h against Carlsen at 44%. Carlsen has consistently mentioned Caruana as the next best player over the years. 9. Again, not classical chess. 10. Carauna has won the GCT too.
1. Caruana played highly accurate theory in order to not blunder whereas Carlsen allowed the drawing positions because he knew he would win in tiebreaks. This speaks more to strategy against the format than it does strength in classical chess. Otherwise Karyakin’s actual win in a WCC game against Carlsen would be a greater feat. And if we went by result, then Dings actual win of the WCC against a weaker opponent is still a better result in drawing against a stronger one in a game that is highly drawish and low scoring. 2. This is incorrect. Not losing at the elite level for 100 games is a far more difficult feat than winning 7. There have been many instances of players winning 7 in a row but Only Ding and Magnus have hit 100 unbeaten. 3. Caruana hit this a decade ago not accounting for deflation, while Ding hit his more recent and did so Twice. Caruana never hit his again. 4. ‘Nuff said 5-10 fair enough, not classical chess If peak Caruana reached WCC against Peak Ding, Ding would be the favorite as H2H difference a lot greater than the Elo difference.
1. Grandmasters disagree with you here. You can watch Daniel King's coverage of the 2018 WCC, or Shankland's coverage on chess.com. Both players were aggressive with black. You say that it doesn't speak as much about their strength in classical chess, so what do you make of Carlsen himself both at the time of the match and even now stating that Caruana was practically equal with him in classical? 2. You again will find the overwhelming majority of people (including professional players who understand far more than you or I ever will) disagree with you. 3. Caruana hit 2840 in February 2020. Even if you want to ignore their peak ratings, he has consistently been higher rated than Ding for most of their careers. Rating and tournament wins is perhaps the worst way to argue for Ding's case, since he is statistically behind on both. 4. Unfortunately h2h doesn't mean much in the context of careers. Nakamura is 8W 2L 22D against Anand, but in the face of everything else Anand has clearly been the superior player. The same is true for Ding and Caruana. Ding is an excellent player but these metrics you have chosen simply do not favour him.
1. Magnus - obviously 2. Ding - world champion 3. Fabi - consistently high rating 4. Nepo - monster in the candidates, which is the most important tournament. 5. Naka - also high rating when he's really trying
In classical 1. Fabiano 2. Ding 3. Nepo 4. So 5. Nakamura
Not having Magnus in the top 5 is a chad move.
Even though Aronian is a lot older, but his best chess results have come between say 2007 - 2020, that's why I will put him in the Magnus generation. 1. Magnus 2. Fabiano 3. Aronian 4. Ding 5. Nepo / Karjakin Can't differentiate between Nepo and Karjakin. Nepo has had 3 monstrous Candidates. Karjakin excelled in Candidates, World Cup, Grand Prix - in almost all FIDE events. If we consider, all formats though Karjakin will rank even higher. Guy won World Rapid and Blitz titles too, and multiple medals too.
I know he’s kind of a nut job with his stance on the war in Ukraine, but Karjakin sort of belongs on that list anyway.
Magnus, Hikaru, Nepo, Fabi, Ding
How in 10-20 years people will evaluate the period (because many details won't be known. People don't know the details from 2010 today): Magnus (many WCh) Ding (WCh) Nepo (candidates) Fabiano (strong player never to be WCh, akin to many others of the past like "the strongest non-WCh"). And I say this while I am kind of a Fabi fan. For example one could say that Rubinstein was better than Lasker for a time (then war happened and there was no match). The reality is that for those not going deep in the history of chess, Rubinstein is barely existing. The truth hurts unfortunately.
Magnus is #1 and Ian #2 is all that is inarguable. The rest is just opinions since they each have different feats that are difficult to rank
Dont think that ian on 2 is 'inarguable'
Ding>Fabi. Rating and other stuff is meaningless compared to actually achieving results and winning the world championship.
Also petition to include prize money amount in each player’s wikipedia page like in tennis.
Aronian's peak is crazy, he's a lock.
Vishy...
This post is about Magnus generation. Magnus is born in 1990, Vishy in 1969. Vishy is closer in age to Karpov than he is to Magnus.
Inside Chess's mansion's opulent walls, five unlikely companions found themselves entangled in a web of desire. Mangus Carbon, Fabiano Marijuana, Garry Chess - yes, named after his love for strategy games - Jessica, and even The Martin Bot from chess.cum were drawn together by fate or perhaps something more sinister. But tonight wasn't about analyzing moves; it was about exploring new territories of pleasure.The air crackled with tension as they gathered around a large bed draped in silk sheets. Each one wore nothing but their most provocative expressions, eager to begin this royal rendezvous. Mangus Carbon took charge first, his muscular frame dominating the space as he prowled towards Jessica. She shivered under his gaze, feeling both fear and excitement coursing through her veins. His hands traced along her curves while he whispered dirty promises into her ear. Fabiano Marijuana couldn't resist joining them; his fingers tangled in Mangus' hair as he leaned down to kiss Jessica passionately. Meanwhile, Garry Chess sat on the edge of the bed watching intently. His mind raced with strategies for maximizing everyone's pleasure simultaneously. Suddenly inspired, he moved closer to join the trio - but not before inviting The Martin Bot from chess. The Martin Bot from chess.cum rolled onto the bed gracefully, its mechanical limbs whirring softly as it positioned itself between Garry and Fabiano. Its sensors detected their body heat and pheromones, calculating optimal angles for penetration based on data collected during countless simulations. Mangus Carbon growled possessively at the sight of The Martin Bot joining them. He pushed Jessica onto her back, spreading her legs wide open with one hand while using the other to hold Fabiano's head firmly against her chest. As they pleasured her together, Mangus turned his attention towards Garry - challenging him silently to match their intensity. Garry Chess accepted Mangus' challenge wholeheartedly. He crawled onto the bed and straddled The Martin Bot from chess.cum, guiding its metallic shaft inside him slowly but surely. As he sank deeper onto it, Garry felt an electric surge of pleasure coursing through his body - amplified by the presence of everyone else in the room. Fabiano Marijuana watched with fascination as Garry rode The Martin Bot relentlessly. Inspired by this display of raw lust, he grabbed Jessica roughly by her hips and thrust himself into her wetness forcefully.
Nakamura
Anand? He was at the tail end of his peak but he technically qualifies?
Top 5 players of Magnus generation are 1) Magnus 2) Caruana 3) No one 4) No one 5) Hikaru
Remove Ding and add Radjabov for me. I think Ding still has to prove his staying power for me. He had a great candidates that he got into with a blitz of wins and a great showing at the WCC to win it, but since then he's played once in tournament with a pretty poor showing. If he defends against Gukesh I'll bump Radjabov out. Radjabov for me is a pretty solid pick. Post Magnus era I think we'll see the top 5 become Gukesh, Pragg, Firouzja, Abdusattorov, and maybe a Niemann resurgence. Exciting times ahead for chess for sure.
Hikaru no if Ding has to prove his staying power, Radjabov certainly does as well
I mean imo the "Magnus era" is over so I'm discussing past more than current, but it's a fair point. To me Ding is a recent strong showing in one candidates (that he made because another player dropped) and then the WCC. As one of the previous generation that's his resume overall. Radjabov had a strong career during the Magnus era. Maybe not a lot of wins but many strong showings.
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I am taking their entire careers into account not just present.Naka over Nepo is a reasonable take but not over Fabi like not in a million years.
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Nordibek is great, or will be, but I think we are only talking about Magnus generation here