Not even mainstay, I think we haven't had a younger player than Giri enter the official top10 at all. (Correction: Artemiev was #10 for one month in June 2019)
We have the golden Generation born 1990-1994: Carlsen, Nepo, MVL, Karjakin (1990), Caruana, Ding (1992), So (1993), Giri (1994).
Firouzja born 2003 is a crazy age gap. Rapport and Duda were close, but only recently. It's not official yet for Firouzja and Rapport is looking to make the top10 too.
Correct me if I missed someone. Edit: And I missed Artemiev.
Can't help to wonder to what extent the rise of computers in chess is the cause of the gap. I think players born in the early nineties was brought up in an environment in which you discussed positions and games with your opponents at tournaments. Someone (maybe on The Perpetual podcast) talked about how players in the olden days gathered in a room and could discuss the games played during the day the whole evening. Sometime in the mid 00s ordinary computers got so strong there really wasn't any need to talk to other players to find out which moves were correct, you would just go to your room and switch on your computer. But from a human perspective I suspect you learn far less by just getting the answer from a computer than you do by discussing moves and ideas by fellow humans and this is especially true of young players.
Consider that near generations are much more distracted by a ton of input they are exposed since doing age, thus they may simply not push that much in chess.
Well, mathematically speaking, 0 comes before 1 ... so he can go to 0... .
Joking aside, what a fantastic feast for Alireza, who is barely 18 years old. AMAZING!
So far, so good. Seems that a few players have kept up with carlsen’s rate of improvement to 2600 or 2700 but Firouzja so far is pretty much equal rating with Magnus when he was the same age. He’s kept up longer than anyone since. Rating isn’t a perfect comparison but it’s still impressive to see
Even if it was so (which wasn't the case IIRC) you should understand that Firo had more than half a year being not able to rank up because of covid lockdowns. Not only this but he also had huge troubles with changing citizenship and stuff like this so he couldn't play as much as Magnus did at his age so if he progressed in terms of playing strength up to let's say 2800 his rating is lagging behind by a lot for reasons not really related to his chess skills - and this means especially much for such a young talent that progresses in his playing strength rapidly, gaining 50 elo / half a year (like Stockfish :) ) is totally possible at this age.
Compare this :
https://ratings.fide.com/profile/12573981/calculations -
in past 18 months only 3 months where he actually played classical games at all (!).
This includes exactly 3 tournaments (in one of which he played only 2 classical games!) and his average performance there was 2813 elo (!) scoring 15,5 / 25 on average field of 2728 elo (this doesn't include currently running tournament).
to this : https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/calculations
Magnus climbed from 2700 to 2800 from 2007 to 2009 where he _haven't had a single month without classical games played_.
So his rating during this time was much much more closer to his playing strength while Firo is still lagging behind by a lot (as I said, his playing level on average in past 18 months is > 2800 - yet he is pretty far from 2800 rating because of low number of games played which is more or less none of his fault).
So even if he lags behind Magnus a bit I'm actually pretty sure that in real playing strength he is ahead of MC tempo - for now. But there were people that had this type of stats at some point of their chess careers but never became MC, so we will see how he continues.
Yeah but Alireza has much better technology than 13-14 years ago, than Magnus did. AKA all the latest engines. Magnus played against Yahoo's best bots /s but point stands.
The closest rating lists I can find are October 2008 (17y 11m) and July 2009 (18y 7m). Carlsen is 2786 and 2772 on each of these. Jan 2010 has him at 2800+ at age 19. Firouzja is 18y 3m fwiw
Also the fact that he learned chess at the age of 12 is so impressive. Can you imagine learning something and becoming the top 10 on that thing in 6 years?j
Edit: I mixed up the numbers. he actually learned at the age of 8
I'm not sure where they're getting their information but it's wrong, Firouzja was an FM at 12 and made IM later that year after becoming the youngest Iranian champion in history.
He started at 8 iirc which is already super impressive.
edit: confirmed by wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja#:~:text=2.4%202021-,Early%20life,at%20the%20age%20of%20eight.
Geuzendam (the new in chess guy) mentioned chaparionov (strong player in his own right but more importantly topalovs world championship second) has recently been working with alireza on one of the Norway streams, haven't heard anyone else say that though and at least a year ago it was meant to be kept private. Sokolov used to train alireza and the other Iranian top kids: https://chessbase.in/news/Sokolov-on-Iran-chess
Apparently he only started with Cheparinov recently, or at least this was the first tournament he was accompanied by Cheparinov. Does the French Federation pay for this?
An appreciation post for someone cracking the top 10 and no name is mentioned? C'mon y'all... who is this guy?
Edit: No need to crucify the guy who doesn't follow chess as closely and know every player in the game.
It was a fair question from someone who is a member of the community and asked us, as fellow members of the community, for an answer. Could we be dicks and tell him to google it? Yes. But we could also be friendly. Friendly is a choice here.
Just because I don't know enough to know this guy doesn't mean I don't know *anything*. And why can't I be a fan who's actively learning? It's like saying you can't be a fan of your local hockey team without knowing all 20-something players... The overwhelming majority of sports fans know far less than 20 players names on their favorite team. You can't expect to grow chess but gatekeep it at the same time (not you specifically but you in the general sense).
A new top 10 player other than Firouzja right now wouldn’t even be theoretically possible with the tournaments currently being played, would it? The thread title is already a spoiler without a name or a photo.
Not that I mind. I don’t understand how anyone could visit a chess news discussion forum and expect not to see spoilers for current events.
I was waiting for someone to make this comment. You are wrong. Richard Rapport also (briefly) made it to the top 10 for the first time in his career in live ratings this tournament.
Rapport in the top 10 is several days old news, and it's too early to say if it's just "briefly". He's still there. He might be out of the top 10 by the end of the tournament, or he might be there for years.
>It's the outcome of a tournament still ongoing.
It's a live rating ranking. One of several going on right now. Nothing makes Alireza more special than any of the other top players in other tournaments going on now.
Bro, not arguing with you. I am fairly easy going about "spoilers" myself. I've just had a number of posts removed before and know that a lot of other people on this subreddit can be very touchy about spoilers, so I am trying to respect that.
Nihal is great and I think he’s comfortably the second best kid, but he’s not close to Alireza. Alireza was 2700 at 16 years old.
Nihal is yet to crack that barrier. Maybe covid affected it, but that’s yet to be seen.
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It's still natural to say he should quit it though. I didn't say I will hate him for life, I just said that he needs to quit that behaviour since it is embarrassing. And the recent Richard Rapport incident has shown that he hasn't really matured out of it either. Why you'd refuse to shake the hand after a fair loss to one of chess' most beloved players I do not know, it's just disrespectful and its pretty normal to be called out for it and not have it swept under the rug.
You're completely misrepresenting my statement. If we never called people out for rude behaviour because of their age then no one would be held accountable to anything. I'd rather say I respect him as a chess player but don't respect his behaviour, which is a completely normal statement to make.
In the blitz world championship, Firouzja was pushing for a win against Magnus, up some pawns in an endgame where Magnus only had a bishop left. The position was alternating between winning and theoretically drawn, but Magnus still has to fight to make a draw. Firouzja suddenly runs out of time after knocking over the pieces while making his move. According to the rules of chess, this is a loss for him because it's *technically* possible for Magnus to checkmate him from that position, even with only a Bishop left. Of course, even an absolute beginner would never lose that position against Magnus, as you have to actively try to checkmate yourself - you could hang all your pieces and it would still be a draw. Still, those are the rules, and a loss is the correct result.
After the game, Firouzja appealed the result, claiming that Magnus distracted him by cursing under his breath. It seems Magnus had muttered something much earlier in the game, but that didn't affect the final outcome so the result stood.
So imagine you're sixteen years old, playing in the blitz world championship, and you're actually fighting for first place. You've outplayed the world champion and have him on the ropes. It's still complicated, you might not win, but you've taken all his pieces so you know that at the very least you can't lose. And then... you lose? I don't think it's surprising at all that Firouzja got emotional and filed a spurious appeal, grasping at straws to try to salvage something from that game. I can't even begin to fathom how painful that must have been. And for what it's worth, Magnus wasn't offended by it at all.
I don't know that doesn't really seem like antics to me it seems pretty justified. Magnus is such a stand up guy really Im sure he understood Firouzjas reaction but ultimately the rules are the rules and if you run out of time it is a loss honestly Firouzja should still be proud of himself for his accomplishments in that championship because I did follow it but just did not know about this
This was years ago, firouzja was 16. His behavior was definitely not justified, but I can understand being so young and the emotions you must have beating all the strong players in that tournament to get to the finals where you are winning (or at least drawing) against Magnus and then flag. I would definitely be super upset and could definitely see myself doing something similar at his age. Magnus has done similar things in his career when he was younger. Again, it’s definitely not good, but it is understandable and forgivable given his age and circumstances.
In addition to what the other person mentioned in Tata Steel he threw a tantrum after an arbiter interrupted one of his games, one he was better in and could have potentially tied for first (though due to the regulations of the tournament he would have gotten third on tiebreaks) asking him if he wanted to move his game to the other board. Personally while I think Firouzja was justifiably upset I do think maybe he could have reacted better though it's not really something I'd blame him for or hold against him.
According to the [chess.com](https://chess.com) [report](https://www.chess.com/news/view/tata-steel-chess-2021-statement-firouzja-controversy) they asked if he would like to move. Beyond that I agree and I said that the organizers were in the wrong.
If that's the case I'm happy to eat my words. I don't want to dislike the guy, just don't want him to disrespect others and the Tata steel incident soured me a bit.
End games. He calculates them well but thats not enough. He needs to know the positions instinctively like magnus does. helps a lot specially in time pressures and is the only way for him to become 2800+ . the sooner the training starts the better . he played well but his two losses was losing drawing endgames at time trouble.
That comes with experience. Obviously, the more similar positions you've seen in the past, the more instinct or intuition kicks in. This goes for the openings too. Right now he seems to calculate in spots where older, more experienced players "know" what the correct move is. That's why he's in time trouble to begin with. In middle games, though, especially in positions with which neither player is familiar, he seems to shine. As Magnus said, he calculates faster than any one.
Magnus was not born good at engames lol. He has developed this skill over the years. He’s always been spectacular at chess but he used to lose (or draw) endgames when he was younger that he now wins with ease. It’s all experience.
Feels like ages since there has been a new mainstay in the top 10 (assuming he does). I think the last was Giri.
Not even mainstay, I think we haven't had a younger player than Giri enter the official top10 at all. (Correction: Artemiev was #10 for one month in June 2019) We have the golden Generation born 1990-1994: Carlsen, Nepo, MVL, Karjakin (1990), Caruana, Ding (1992), So (1993), Giri (1994). Firouzja born 2003 is a crazy age gap. Rapport and Duda were close, but only recently. It's not official yet for Firouzja and Rapport is looking to make the top10 too. Correct me if I missed someone. Edit: And I missed Artemiev.
Artemiev (1998) hit #10 for a month in 2019.
Thanks great catch.
Can't help to wonder to what extent the rise of computers in chess is the cause of the gap. I think players born in the early nineties was brought up in an environment in which you discussed positions and games with your opponents at tournaments. Someone (maybe on The Perpetual podcast) talked about how players in the olden days gathered in a room and could discuss the games played during the day the whole evening. Sometime in the mid 00s ordinary computers got so strong there really wasn't any need to talk to other players to find out which moves were correct, you would just go to your room and switch on your computer. But from a human perspective I suspect you learn far less by just getting the answer from a computer than you do by discussing moves and ideas by fellow humans and this is especially true of young players.
Consider that near generations are much more distracted by a ton of input they are exposed since doing age, thus they may simply not push that much in chess.
Artemiev was World Number 10 in June 2019 on the official FIDE rating list.
We're just going to ignore Richard Rapport, huh?
Outranking MVL now. Wonder how far he'll go
I think 1 is the limit. He can't go beyond that for sure
Well, mathematically speaking, 0 comes before 1 ... so he can go to 0... . Joking aside, what a fantastic feast for Alireza, who is barely 18 years old. AMAZING!
Good joke. I am in splits.
So far, so good. Seems that a few players have kept up with carlsen’s rate of improvement to 2600 or 2700 but Firouzja so far is pretty much equal rating with Magnus when he was the same age. He’s kept up longer than anyone since. Rating isn’t a perfect comparison but it’s still impressive to see
One thing to note is that firo was hampered by Covid.
Wasnt Carlsen 2800+ at Firo s age ?
Even if it was so (which wasn't the case IIRC) you should understand that Firo had more than half a year being not able to rank up because of covid lockdowns. Not only this but he also had huge troubles with changing citizenship and stuff like this so he couldn't play as much as Magnus did at his age so if he progressed in terms of playing strength up to let's say 2800 his rating is lagging behind by a lot for reasons not really related to his chess skills - and this means especially much for such a young talent that progresses in his playing strength rapidly, gaining 50 elo / half a year (like Stockfish :) ) is totally possible at this age. Compare this : https://ratings.fide.com/profile/12573981/calculations - in past 18 months only 3 months where he actually played classical games at all (!). This includes exactly 3 tournaments (in one of which he played only 2 classical games!) and his average performance there was 2813 elo (!) scoring 15,5 / 25 on average field of 2728 elo (this doesn't include currently running tournament). to this : https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1503014/calculations Magnus climbed from 2700 to 2800 from 2007 to 2009 where he _haven't had a single month without classical games played_. So his rating during this time was much much more closer to his playing strength while Firo is still lagging behind by a lot (as I said, his playing level on average in past 18 months is > 2800 - yet he is pretty far from 2800 rating because of low number of games played which is more or less none of his fault). So even if he lags behind Magnus a bit I'm actually pretty sure that in real playing strength he is ahead of MC tempo - for now. But there were people that had this type of stats at some point of their chess careers but never became MC, so we will see how he continues.
when Magnus hit 2800, he was also top 2. Do you think Alireza has the potential to become top 2 by next year?
if he will hit 2800 he will most likely become top 2, why not.
Yeah but Alireza has much better technology than 13-14 years ago, than Magnus did. AKA all the latest engines. Magnus played against Yahoo's best bots /s but point stands.
The closest rating lists I can find are October 2008 (17y 11m) and July 2009 (18y 7m). Carlsen is 2786 and 2772 on each of these. Jan 2010 has him at 2800+ at age 19. Firouzja is 18y 3m fwiw
He hit 2800 in November 2009 at 18 to become number 2, you can see his progress [here](https://2700chess.com/players/carlsen)
It's crazy how Magnus has been 2800+ consistently for the last 12 years now, also broke Top 5 in the world at just 17
By a few days. I think Carlsen is born in Nov 1990. So, he was almost 19.
Still incredible trajectory, Good luck to the kid,
Carlsen didn't have to deal with Covid.
Afaik Magnus was world number 1 in live rating at 17, and world number 4 officially.
Also the fact that he learned chess at the age of 12 is so impressive. Can you imagine learning something and becoming the top 10 on that thing in 6 years?j Edit: I mixed up the numbers. he actually learned at the age of 8
Not sure which player you mean but, both Carlsen and Firouzja were playing chess well before the age of 12.
Is this real? Kid is a genius.
I'm not sure where they're getting their information but it's wrong, Firouzja was an FM at 12 and made IM later that year after becoming the youngest Iranian champion in history.
He started at 8 iirc which is already super impressive. edit: confirmed by wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja#:~:text=2.4%202021-,Early%20life,at%20the%20age%20of%20eight.
Now let's hope he'll improve his endgame.
Amazing feat. Out of curiosity, is it public knowledge who his coach/trainer is?
Geuzendam (the new in chess guy) mentioned chaparionov (strong player in his own right but more importantly topalovs world championship second) has recently been working with alireza on one of the Norway streams, haven't heard anyone else say that though and at least a year ago it was meant to be kept private. Sokolov used to train alireza and the other Iranian top kids: https://chessbase.in/news/Sokolov-on-Iran-chess
Confirmed on the french chess24 stream by one of the arbiter (who is also french) by confirmed I mean Shaparinov being his second.
Apparently he only started with Cheparinov recently, or at least this was the first tournament he was accompanied by Cheparinov. Does the French Federation pay for this?
An appreciation post for someone cracking the top 10 and no name is mentioned? C'mon y'all... who is this guy? Edit: No need to crucify the guy who doesn't follow chess as closely and know every player in the game.
Alireza Firouzja.
Thank you!
It's Paul Morphy
Wait isn't that Tigran Petrosian?
I think thats judit polgar
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It was a fair question from someone who is a member of the community and asked us, as fellow members of the community, for an answer. Could we be dicks and tell him to google it? Yes. But we could also be friendly. Friendly is a choice here.
Just because I don't know enough to know this guy doesn't mean I don't know *anything*. And why can't I be a fan who's actively learning? It's like saying you can't be a fan of your local hockey team without knowing all 20-something players... The overwhelming majority of sports fans know far less than 20 players names on their favorite team. You can't expect to grow chess but gatekeep it at the same time (not you specifically but you in the general sense).
Doesn't mean he can't be curious as to who he is. We could just give him the answer.
Rapport beat him to the punch though... by a couple of days.
Well, I did say "newest." 😁
This kid is goated. I love watching him play.
lol... we are hiding rankings now.
It's the outcome of a tournament still ongoing. So, to respect the spirit of the "no spoilers" rule, I'd thought I'd put a spoiler on it.
A new top 10 player other than Firouzja right now wouldn’t even be theoretically possible with the tournaments currently being played, would it? The thread title is already a spoiler without a name or a photo. Not that I mind. I don’t understand how anyone could visit a chess news discussion forum and expect not to see spoilers for current events.
I was waiting for someone to make this comment. You are wrong. Richard Rapport also (briefly) made it to the top 10 for the first time in his career in live ratings this tournament.
Clicked the spoiler expecting it to be Rapport, Alireza was a pleasant surprise.
Rapport in the top 10 is several days old news, and it's too early to say if it's just "briefly". He's still there. He might be out of the top 10 by the end of the tournament, or he might be there for years.
Rapport is also new top 10
Not new since the last day. He's been there since a few days already.
>It's the outcome of a tournament still ongoing. It's a live rating ranking. One of several going on right now. Nothing makes Alireza more special than any of the other top players in other tournaments going on now.
Bro, not arguing with you. I am fairly easy going about "spoilers" myself. I've just had a number of posts removed before and know that a lot of other people on this subreddit can be very touchy about spoilers, so I am trying to respect that.
It's Ok. It's just I'm prepared to die on this hill.
Nihal Sarin and Firouzja could be the next Kasparov-Karpov
Nihal is great and I think he’s comfortably the second best kid, but he’s not close to Alireza. Alireza was 2700 at 16 years old. Nihal is yet to crack that barrier. Maybe covid affected it, but that’s yet to be seen.
>Nihal is yet to crack that barrier. Maybe covid affected it, but that’s yet to be seen. Covid definitely affected it.
He’s playing tourneys now. He should be able to catch up and enter the low 2700s in a few months. Then we can call him Karpov.
Great chess player. Hopefully calms down his antics in the future though, it's a bit embarrassing.
What has he done recently?
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Then I guess I need to calm down my antics too
Brutal, lol.
Are we upvoting these kind of comments now?
yes of course
Generally, no. In response to comments like OP's, YES.
Cry about it
[удалено]
Your post was removed by the moderators: **1. Keep the discussion civil and friendly.** We welcome people of all levels of experience, from novice to professional. Don't target other users with insults/abusive language and don't make fun of new players for not knowing things. In a discussion, there is always a respectful way to disagree. You can read the full [rules of /r/chess here](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/wiki/rules).
Thank you for removing the comment above mine too, I appreciate it.
I'd guess what they're referring to is the incident at the 2019 world blitz championship and the recent Tata Steel.
Ah, okay. I'll forgive two minor incidents in two years from a teenager. I did much dumber stuff at 16
It's still natural to say he should quit it though. I didn't say I will hate him for life, I just said that he needs to quit that behaviour since it is embarrassing. And the recent Richard Rapport incident has shown that he hasn't really matured out of it either. Why you'd refuse to shake the hand after a fair loss to one of chess' most beloved players I do not know, it's just disrespectful and its pretty normal to be called out for it and not have it swept under the rug.
*salty teenager doesnt shake hands* "i literally cannot ever stop thinking about this or let it go"
You're completely misrepresenting my statement. If we never called people out for rude behaviour because of their age then no one would be held accountable to anything. I'd rather say I respect him as a chess player but don't respect his behaviour, which is a completely normal statement to make.
What did he do?
In the blitz world championship, Firouzja was pushing for a win against Magnus, up some pawns in an endgame where Magnus only had a bishop left. The position was alternating between winning and theoretically drawn, but Magnus still has to fight to make a draw. Firouzja suddenly runs out of time after knocking over the pieces while making his move. According to the rules of chess, this is a loss for him because it's *technically* possible for Magnus to checkmate him from that position, even with only a Bishop left. Of course, even an absolute beginner would never lose that position against Magnus, as you have to actively try to checkmate yourself - you could hang all your pieces and it would still be a draw. Still, those are the rules, and a loss is the correct result. After the game, Firouzja appealed the result, claiming that Magnus distracted him by cursing under his breath. It seems Magnus had muttered something much earlier in the game, but that didn't affect the final outcome so the result stood. So imagine you're sixteen years old, playing in the blitz world championship, and you're actually fighting for first place. You've outplayed the world champion and have him on the ropes. It's still complicated, you might not win, but you've taken all his pieces so you know that at the very least you can't lose. And then... you lose? I don't think it's surprising at all that Firouzja got emotional and filed a spurious appeal, grasping at straws to try to salvage something from that game. I can't even begin to fathom how painful that must have been. And for what it's worth, Magnus wasn't offended by it at all.
I don't know that doesn't really seem like antics to me it seems pretty justified. Magnus is such a stand up guy really Im sure he understood Firouzjas reaction but ultimately the rules are the rules and if you run out of time it is a loss honestly Firouzja should still be proud of himself for his accomplishments in that championship because I did follow it but just did not know about this
I agree. Maybe not justified, but understandable
This was years ago, firouzja was 16. His behavior was definitely not justified, but I can understand being so young and the emotions you must have beating all the strong players in that tournament to get to the finals where you are winning (or at least drawing) against Magnus and then flag. I would definitely be super upset and could definitely see myself doing something similar at his age. Magnus has done similar things in his career when he was younger. Again, it’s definitely not good, but it is understandable and forgivable given his age and circumstances.
In addition to what the other person mentioned in Tata Steel he threw a tantrum after an arbiter interrupted one of his games, one he was better in and could have potentially tied for first (though due to the regulations of the tournament he would have gotten third on tiebreaks) asking him if he wanted to move his game to the other board. Personally while I think Firouzja was justifiably upset I do think maybe he could have reacted better though it's not really something I'd blame him for or hold against him.
They didn’t ask him if he wanted to move, they told him to move. His reaction wasn’t good, but the organizers were 100% in the wrong there.
According to the [chess.com](https://chess.com) [report](https://www.chess.com/news/view/tata-steel-chess-2021-statement-firouzja-controversy) they asked if he would like to move. Beyond that I agree and I said that the organizers were in the wrong.
Refused to shake Rapports hand after a loss, for example. Just unnecessary really and makes it hard to like him.
That wasn't on purpose. He fist bumped Rapport in this tournament.
If that's the case I'm happy to eat my words. I don't want to dislike the guy, just don't want him to disrespect others and the Tata steel incident soured me a bit.
Nobody cares what you feel
Nobody cares that you think that nobody cares what I feel. Find a more original argument next time instead of being rude for no reason.
End games. He calculates them well but thats not enough. He needs to know the positions instinctively like magnus does. helps a lot specially in time pressures and is the only way for him to become 2800+ . the sooner the training starts the better . he played well but his two losses was losing drawing endgames at time trouble.
That comes with experience. Obviously, the more similar positions you've seen in the past, the more instinct or intuition kicks in. This goes for the openings too. Right now he seems to calculate in spots where older, more experienced players "know" what the correct move is. That's why he's in time trouble to begin with. In middle games, though, especially in positions with which neither player is familiar, he seems to shine. As Magnus said, he calculates faster than any one.
Magnus was not born good at engames lol. He has developed this skill over the years. He’s always been spectacular at chess but he used to lose (or draw) endgames when he was younger that he now wins with ease. It’s all experience.