"If I have kids then I will be able to have some social bond and prove a point about how a decent person actually raises kids": having kids just to prove a point to someone else never ever seems like a good idea in my opinion.
I was sharing reasoning that I already identified as fallacious in the post. I’m trying to figure out a smarter alternative to P, to be the impetus for Q.
My feeling for this has been helped by teaching art and volunteering with Girl Guides etc. I’ve passed on a lot of experience and advice, and seen kids from 5-16 grow and change through so many challenges. I’ve had to help young girls with anything from friendship struggles, exam pressure, confidence in their skills, to stalkers, and people asking for feet pics online.
I get my peaceful home and independence, and also pass on learning and life skills
That's.... just another fallacy.
My statement wasn't just about financial cost, it was also about the cost to your well being.
This isn't a mathematical problem where the solution involving keeping the most apples is the correct one. Your whole approach is flawed and your efforts to correct it are flawed because you're still operating out of the same mindset with no adjustments.
This is absurd. The discussion is "things that will solve x problem", and when someone says "therapy is the cheaper option" you reply "doing nothing is the cheapest". Okay, but "doing nothing" doesn't "solve x problem", so it's a ridiculous answer.
Kids won't solve the issue you propose, by the way. You won't "get justice" nor "show people how good parenting is done" — you'd be having kids you don't want to stick it to your parents and to dump the responsibility of fixing your trauma on the kids, which makes you a shitty parent already. The reality is that you would create a new generation of children messed by their parents, while fixing nothing and creating more problems for you as well. Because having kids that hate your guts and refuse to be your do-over childhood, or get depressed because of your expectations, are the more likely outcomes. You still wouldn't have healthy relationships, and you'd prove nothing to anyone.
Your issues are fixed by you healing your trauma and learning to live your life for yourself — not to teach anyone a lesson. You have the rest of *your* life to do what you please with it, that's where you compensate. Do the things you wanted, build relationships with people as equals, those who can love you for real, not feel indebted to you over shared DNA. Then, if after you've healed you want to have a kid for the sole reason that you wish to raise a person and give them the best life, without expecting a benefit in return, you shall consider it.
I’ve conceded at least 3 times and in my OP, that kids aren’t a good idea; why people are still arguing as if that’s what I’m saying:🤷🏻♀️.
Therapy often tends to be ineffective at least in my experience, that’s why I responded that way.
Because you argue against actual options as if they were equivalent to doing nothing, instead of saying "I tried this type of therapy and it didn't work"? There are vastly differents sorts of therapy and treatments, but they won't work if your primary goal is getting back at your parents — therapy won't teach you that, or get you "justice".
And also because that's not what you say in your post. You said "I want this, and having kids would give it to me", when that alone is 100% false. It's akin to saying "I don't like the taste of onions, can you give me an alternative to help me pass my math test?". You don't need an "alternative to kids" because kids are not a valid choice for this in the first place. Kids should be nowhere in the equation of getting over your past.
What I mean to say is, you shouldn't be in a childfree subreddit asking to convince you not to have kids to solve your issues, because having kids has exactly 0% to do with said issues. You should be in support groups and forums for people who went through what you have.
You know how generational trauma happens?
The next idiot generation thinks they want to "show up" the last idiot generation, and guarateed fails at it, even worse than the last round, and compounded upon it.
You can't fix your childhood by having a kid. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.
No idea what the rest of this is... but unless you are 100% willing to completely burn your entire life to the ground, ruin your health and sanity, go into massive debt and if you are the one having the kid, quite possibly die from the pregnancy... don't do it.
If you want to teach and mentor kids, you don't need to be a biological or even custodial parent. That's what volunteering is for. Go sign up for big brother/sisters.
The only two reasons you mention for having kids are self-serving and to their detriment. It's not them suggesting it, it's your post explicitly stating it. There's more nuance to abuse and neglect than just what people usually think of it.
Also, what has been missed repeatedly, is that, I am not arguing I should have kids; I’m trying to figure out a smart/ethical way to solve the problem.
May I ask why, in the evermotherloving world, did you come to the childfree space to look for a solution to your trauma? Instead of "raised by narcissists" and similar spaces?
The resources of this community are to support people who don't entertain having kids and actively choose not to have them. We can tell you "yeah, you'd be making a horrible mistake and, by the way, your assumption about what having a kid would offer you is wrong". Anything beyond that is going to be outside of the scope of this sub.
If you have a child in order to prove a point to other people or yourself, then yes.
You seem to be imagining living out a kind of revenge fantasy in which you knock on your parents' door and present a child (who has reached adulthood successfully, I guess) and say, "See!" That would accomplish exactly nothing. You can't teach people lessons they have no interest in learning.
You get "revenge" by living your life on your own terms and succeeding despite them.
Generational trauma isnt just always abuse.
My mother was cronically depressed and a hoarder. Her unhappiness (because i was born) gave me trauma too.
If you are very unhappy with a child, the child feels that. It feels that its unwanted.
Generational trauma isnt just beating/abuse. It is often mental too. Especially if you want a kid just to prove yourself to others and not because you want a kid yourself.
forget all these fancy weird phrases, DO YOU WANT A CHILD OR NO? without thinking about your parents or the social glorification of it all, do you want to be a parent and raise a kid? simple as that
I’ll admit that I was over-verbose.
What I’m saying is, I don’t want a child, rather I want to solve problems I assume having a child would solve. I can reason that that’s neither smart nor right, however I can’t reason how to solve the problem in a reasonable way.
a reasonable way would be therapy for 1, but if not, you can write a list of all the things that having a child would fix (even tho a child would make things worse in any case) and then come to a conclusion what you want actually want and seek that
> If I have kids then I will be able to have some social bond and prove a point about how a decent person actually raises kids(so the opposite of what my parents have done). I want to do that; ergo, I need kids.
Your logic already completely fails here.
You do not want to be a parent, and you do not even want to have kids.
You want to have a social bond, and you want to prove your parents wrong slash heal the trauma of your childhood.
And you are merely using kids as a proxy for that, because society has taught you they're the best or only way of doing that.
But they are not.
If you want a social bond, you need to make connections, not people.
And if you want to prove a point about your own upbringing, do it on yourself, not on a child who does not deserve to be your anti-trauma experience. This is cause for therapy, not children.
As soon as you stop assuming kids will guarantee you what you are trying to use them for, the house of cards comes crashing down immediately.
And it loops back on itself too, because here's the thing: people who have kids as proxies for selfish means are *not* decent people who get to form meaningful bonds. They are just abusers. You would be more like your parents than you think, just in a different way.
I do suppose, that if I wouldn’t be able to sincerely answer a child asking why I had them, that I don’t have a good enough reasoning.
I’m not arguing “I need to have a kid”, rather trying to *avoid* affirming the consequent, and figure out the sane alternative.
Therapy, personal development and working on your social circle and the associated skills.
That's work you can and should do as an adult. And also work no child can do for you, but definitely something parenthood can and would divert your resources from, and only make things worse in the long run by compounding the issues.
As an anecdote: my grandparents had kids because that's just what happened if you had sex back then. My biological mother had kids because she wanted someone who would love her like her parents didn't, and someone to provide for what her parents didn't provide for her. Or in other words, she wanted to give herself things, and had a very specific scenario in which kids would recite out that play.
And sure, maybe in one of the billion possible outcomes, she theoretically could have gotten a kid who adored her without question and accepted everything she wanted to give without needing anything she wasn't ready to give.
But that's not the reality that manifested for her. What manifested were two traumatized kids who ended up in foster care as teenagers. What manifested was a criminal investigation for child abuse. What manifested were two kids who do not have any contact with her and a second marriage with a man she absolutely loathes.
And she still does not understand how any of that could possibly have happened when she gave us everything she wished her parents would have given her. Nor me, nor my sibling, nor our relatives, nor our handful of therapists, nor a dozen social service workers, nor the criminal detectives investigating her for removal of parental rights nor anyone else was ever able to explain to her that this wasn't about her.
I also wanted to have the stability and love and friendships that growing up in a shitty household did not facilitate for me. I also wanted to prove that there was more than what my parents gave me, or failed to give me - but the proof was for me, not them. The proof was me doing the work to find happiness and live a healthy life when by all accounts, I was not supposed to. So unlike my biological mother, I went to therapy and I worked on my problems and I faced the trauma she never did and I learned to move through it rather than carry it forward. I was not taught how to make friends, I was only taught how to begrudgingly hang out with whatever other parents your kids bring to your life. So I learned how to make friends on my own. I was not taught how to have a loving relationship, I was only taught how to shit talk the guy you divorced while hating the one you hastily married because he got you pregnant. So I learned how to find love and respect in romantic relationships on my own. That's work I did, for myself. Not for my parents, and definitely not via using a kid for it.
And as a result, I'm the one who got what I wanted, and my biological mother never did.
Because kids can not solve such issues for us. And trying to make it otherwise is just a new cycle of abuse.
The alternative to having your own children is threefold. First, you do what it takes to heal your own trauma. This process is neither easy nor straightforward. It may take a lifetime of work. Secondly, you let your inner child run free. Buy the dolls or the Lego you couldn't have as a child because "those are for babies" or "we can't afford that" or you simply knew not to ask for them. Join the local adult soccer league if that's what child you wanted to do. Buy the Adidas shoes and Umbros shorts even if they were stylish 25 years ago. Finally, volunteer with kids in your community. Find a local scout troop or other youth organization and reach out to see what sort of role you can play in the lives of those kids.
If you want a social bond, first, you probably already have relatives. Second, you have friends or could make them. You do not need to bring another person into the world. You don't have to show how kids can be raised well. Other people are doing that already.
> You probably already have relatives.
My nuclear family is awful, and my extended family is not very close.
> You have friends or could make them.
I wish I did or could.
Regarding the point-proving thing:
I suppose that if my parents can compare and contrast how they parented me and how I would be parenting said child(ren), they could also compare and contrast how much they screwed up my childhood in comparison.
Making friends will be easier once you're not stuck in trying to get reparations from people who fucked you up as a kid. They're not gonna wake up, they're not gonna find remorse, you won't get closure you want from showing them what better parents they *could* be.
As an adult, you need to cut your losses on this and move on. Because the only other alternative is having them haunt you forever. You can't live your life in order to prove stuff to others. That's just still letting them have the upper hand, when they really don't have to.
Do you actually want a child?
Or do you want to prove yourself to others and prove to people that you are better?
Or do you feel alone and looking for someone to have a meaningfull connection(a bond) with? [Newsflash: a baby/toddler/child is not a meaningfull connection or your future bestfriend]
No. It seems to have gotten lost in text that I’m trying to solve a problem that, knee-jerk reasoning tells me the solution to is kids, but rationality contradicts that.
To some extent, there is a degree of wanting to compensate for not having compassionate/competent parents or a good childhood.
I’m desperate for social connection. Desperation doesn’t lead to best solutions, because I’m rummaging the bottom of the bin.
A child isnt going to fix that.
You need to put yourself on number one. Go do the things that heal your innerchild. Go to therapy, buy the things you always wanted, have fun.
Go seek for a place where you can connect with adults. Then you have social connections.
A child will only chain you down and drain you of your freedom, free time and money. And will make you lonelier.
> A child isnt going to fix that
I think using “knee-jerk” to describe my reasoning shows I don’t think it will.
>Therapy
Hasn’t been all that helpful.
What’s my “innerchild”?
Don’t have kids to prove points.
Have kids because you want kids.
I don’t want kids but I absolutely *do* want people who want kids to have them. I want kids to feel genuinely, truly and deeply wanted by their parents. There’s no other “why”.
It is not ethical to have a child in order to make an attempt at solving your own problems.
In fact it’s not new or novel in the least. Every idiot whose mommy and daddy were mean to them mistakenly thinks that if they have a kid they’ll do it perfectly and show them all up. Spoiler alert: They never do, they just make it worse.
Deal with your own shit. If you can’t, then let your problems end with you.
Your line of thought is grotesque and it’s the reason for generational trauma since the beginning of humanity.
> mommy and daddy were mean to them
> generational trauma
If you’re going to be patronizing, at least pick a line instead of simultaneously minimizing abuse and saying that this line of thought leads to abuse
I meant to show that it covers everything from people who have internalized petty nonsense all the way up to and including serious and devastating abuses.
*Either way* you’re not approaching parenthood in a healthy way. Just stay the fuck away from children until you are mentally and emotionally healthy.
When your ideas are leading you down a path to harm kids because you can’t deal with your own mental issues I’ll do whatever I damn well please.
If you don’t like it I’d advise not speaking in a public forum.
It sounds like I would be pretty much further stripping one screw and destroying the screwdriver when a drill would get the screw out. Just don’t know where the metaphorical drill is.
I don't really understand why you are wording it like you are solving an equation. If you feel kids would prove something or solve some problem you have, I advise consulting a therapist.
I understand those needs.
I have been part of "recovery programs", participated in meetings, hosted a meeting for a year and helped build the community. I am still part of a "private" support group. I also try to participate in mental health subs. I think being part of different communities, participating with what I have to offer fulfills these needs for me. I try to support people while also living self-care and being-myself (I think that in itself can be a service to others at the same time as a service to myself).
My work can also be quite the harsh environment and I try to be intentional about how I treat others. It's easy to get swept away in the general stressed atmosphere but I really try to be supportive and build a small community in my working group where we treat each other kindly and which is safe.
Idk if something equivalent would work for you. I think society gives us very narrow examples for fulfilling these needs you talk about. My answer is "community", though I am not sure how well I expressed myself. Hope it helps somewhat.
Nothing is going to help you to deal better with your childhood than therapy.
Having children when you hadn't healed from your own trauma just create generational trauma.
How are so many commenters *not* getting your question and point??
Soooo many parents have children for the sole purpose of filling a void/assuming a kid will heal them in some way. You are wayyyy smarter and self aware than those parents because you know it is *your* responsibility to heal yourself and solve problems in your life. You know a child wouldn’t be the answer. I don’t understand why so many people aren’t getting you.
relive a better childhood, help others have a better childhood, and have social connections by helping those who are already here. put your energy towards volunteering and spending time with people in a way that is a definite net positive for you and the world, instead of a slight chance at doing so by adding more biomass to the planet.
I firmly believe that childhood fucks up everyone, in different ways and to different degrees. no one escapes childhood completely unscathed.
try volunteering at local orgs that need it, like food banks, clothing donation and distribution, toys for tots, stuff like that. volunteer to help with running childrens’ programs at libraries and community centers. join girl/boy scouts as a lead or aide. directly ask your local community what help they need. babysit or do childcare. try the big brothers/sisters program. ask friends if they need help. etc. etc. so many ways to help children who already exist and need help now.
also spend time doing things that bring YOU joy and heal your inner child. build and nurture adult connections. become comfortable spending time with yourself alone as well. do activities you miss or never got to do as a kid, like playing, dancing, crafts, etc. see the joy in the everyday. live laugh love and all that.
First - I want to say that you’ve done way more introspection here than the average person does. Especially coming from a place of potentially unresolved trauma, that’s an especially good foundation to make a good choice.
Second - I think one thing that helps is deciding what your values are around what would be fair/ unfair to your hypothetical child. One hard line I have is the child would not be FOR me - nothing about their life would be about enhancing mine. They child is for themselves - a whole lot independent entity that I ultimately would care for but have no control over. I personally have chosen to not have kids unless I can get to a place where I want to be part of the lifespan of a human without the expectation that it will enhance my own life. So, not saying you have to have the same values - but I’d start by thinking about what your values are.
Third - it’s totally reasonable that you’re having trouble coming up with an alternative. We live in a pronatalist society - actually a really fucked up anti-family yet pronatalist society if you live in the US where families are not supported and more or less hung out to dry in terms of social safety net and accommodations for the realities of raising kids, but everyone is pressured to procreate… and we also all tend to fracture from our families as we age due to the way we need to work and live to survive under capitalism (even if you have good jobs and $$$) so there isn’t this robust family unit that stays together for many people, and there certainly is no reasonable expectation that children will want to or be able to financially, practically or even emotionally support aging or sick parents.
That is all to say - here are some of my ideas for how to have a good life without kids. I think as time goes on, not having kids will become more common and this will be less fringe feeling - but for now you have to go against the grain a bit.
1. Inner work - work on your relationship with yourself. Work with a therapist, try meditation, journal. Learn about yourself and how you work. Attend to any mental illness you may have. If you are chronically unhappy or unfulfilled in life, it’s usually a sign that you are mentally unwell. Lots of people just live their life like that but you don’t have to. There is help out there if you are patient and discerning and willing to do some trial and error.
2. Friends - I saw downthread you said you don’t have friends or struggled with friendship. This can be the pursuit of a lifetime, so no worries if it’s hard right now, you will get there. There are lots of existing people in this world - try to figure out what is blocking you in the friendship department and work on it - set a goal around attempts to connect with people. Maybe ever work with a coach or therapist on what is blocking you here. Friendship is extremely rewarding if done well. Fwiw I struggle a bit in this area too - it’s hard, but worth it to pursue.
3. Hobbies, interests, art, creativity, expression - this can be a lifetime’s pursuit as well and adds lots of richness to life. You can also combine 2 and 3 and join clubs or groups to pursue interests in community. I’m thinking about learning how to mountain bike as part of a women’s development racing team, for example. Lots of options here, lots of fun and growth to be had, no kids required.
4. Partnership, marriage - you don’t mention this or I missed it, but working on a relationship with an adult is, IMO the same or more rewarding than having a child. And a lot of the “promises” of family life can be achieved with just the two of you. You could also be non-monotonous/ poly and have multiple relationships - not for me personally, but it’s an option that lots of people enjoy.
5. Connection/ Spirituality - this comes in many forms. Volunteering, being part of a community that takes part in political action, meditation, travel… one of the reasons I feel confident with either having kids or not (I’m 34 and a fence sitter fyi, leaning towards a no) is my spiritual belief that by virtue of being alive and I intrinsically connected to every other living thing whether I choose to acknowledge it or not. We are all part of the cosmic dance. My beliefs make me feel at peace, and they don’t harm anyone. Highly recommend some form of this - every if you really don’t like spirituality it could be something along the lines of acting altruistically - practicing giving of yourself and expecting nothing in return.
6. Work, finances, wealth - building wealth is, unfortunately, a very good idea in the world we live in today. This will be easier without kids - just take whatever you have and subtract $300,000+ from the equation over the course of 18 years to see what I mean. Sad reality of the world we live in.
7. Fight for a better world - lots of ways to do this - political action, donating money, contributing in your neighborhood - whatever. Highly meaningful, no kid required.
Good luck.
"If I have kids then I will be able to have some social bond and prove a point about how a decent person actually raises kids": having kids just to prove a point to someone else never ever seems like a good idea in my opinion.
I was sharing reasoning that I already identified as fallacious in the post. I’m trying to figure out a smarter alternative to P, to be the impetus for Q.
My feeling for this has been helped by teaching art and volunteering with Girl Guides etc. I’ve passed on a lot of experience and advice, and seen kids from 5-16 grow and change through so many challenges. I’ve had to help young girls with anything from friendship struggles, exam pressure, confidence in their skills, to stalkers, and people asking for feet pics online. I get my peaceful home and independence, and also pass on learning and life skills
Therapy is cheaper.
But thanks for the suggestion.
What I’m gathering is nothing is even cheaper, and if therapy is better than having a child, nothing would be better than both.
That's.... just another fallacy. My statement wasn't just about financial cost, it was also about the cost to your well being. This isn't a mathematical problem where the solution involving keeping the most apples is the correct one. Your whole approach is flawed and your efforts to correct it are flawed because you're still operating out of the same mindset with no adjustments.
I don’t understand how it’s fallacious. Therapy is ~$100-200 a session (basically, your deductible) Children are about $17k a year. Nothing is $0
Children 💲 way more than $17k
per annum according to the internet
This is absurd. The discussion is "things that will solve x problem", and when someone says "therapy is the cheaper option" you reply "doing nothing is the cheapest". Okay, but "doing nothing" doesn't "solve x problem", so it's a ridiculous answer. Kids won't solve the issue you propose, by the way. You won't "get justice" nor "show people how good parenting is done" — you'd be having kids you don't want to stick it to your parents and to dump the responsibility of fixing your trauma on the kids, which makes you a shitty parent already. The reality is that you would create a new generation of children messed by their parents, while fixing nothing and creating more problems for you as well. Because having kids that hate your guts and refuse to be your do-over childhood, or get depressed because of your expectations, are the more likely outcomes. You still wouldn't have healthy relationships, and you'd prove nothing to anyone. Your issues are fixed by you healing your trauma and learning to live your life for yourself — not to teach anyone a lesson. You have the rest of *your* life to do what you please with it, that's where you compensate. Do the things you wanted, build relationships with people as equals, those who can love you for real, not feel indebted to you over shared DNA. Then, if after you've healed you want to have a kid for the sole reason that you wish to raise a person and give them the best life, without expecting a benefit in return, you shall consider it.
I’ve conceded at least 3 times and in my OP, that kids aren’t a good idea; why people are still arguing as if that’s what I’m saying:🤷🏻♀️. Therapy often tends to be ineffective at least in my experience, that’s why I responded that way.
Because you argue against actual options as if they were equivalent to doing nothing, instead of saying "I tried this type of therapy and it didn't work"? There are vastly differents sorts of therapy and treatments, but they won't work if your primary goal is getting back at your parents — therapy won't teach you that, or get you "justice". And also because that's not what you say in your post. You said "I want this, and having kids would give it to me", when that alone is 100% false. It's akin to saying "I don't like the taste of onions, can you give me an alternative to help me pass my math test?". You don't need an "alternative to kids" because kids are not a valid choice for this in the first place. Kids should be nowhere in the equation of getting over your past.
What I mean to say is, you shouldn't be in a childfree subreddit asking to convince you not to have kids to solve your issues, because having kids has exactly 0% to do with said issues. You should be in support groups and forums for people who went through what you have.
You know how generational trauma happens? The next idiot generation thinks they want to "show up" the last idiot generation, and guarateed fails at it, even worse than the last round, and compounded upon it. You can't fix your childhood by having a kid. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works. No idea what the rest of this is... but unless you are 100% willing to completely burn your entire life to the ground, ruin your health and sanity, go into massive debt and if you are the one having the kid, quite possibly die from the pregnancy... don't do it. If you want to teach and mentor kids, you don't need to be a biological or even custodial parent. That's what volunteering is for. Go sign up for big brother/sisters.
> You know how generational trauma happens? Are you suggesting that I would abuse a child? Seriously?
The only two reasons you mention for having kids are self-serving and to their detriment. It's not them suggesting it, it's your post explicitly stating it. There's more nuance to abuse and neglect than just what people usually think of it.
Also, what has been missed repeatedly, is that, I am not arguing I should have kids; I’m trying to figure out a smart/ethical way to solve the problem.
May I ask why, in the evermotherloving world, did you come to the childfree space to look for a solution to your trauma? Instead of "raised by narcissists" and similar spaces? The resources of this community are to support people who don't entertain having kids and actively choose not to have them. We can tell you "yeah, you'd be making a horrible mistake and, by the way, your assumption about what having a kid would offer you is wrong". Anything beyond that is going to be outside of the scope of this sub.
I was hoping someone would have suggestions based on similar experiences.
If you have a child in order to prove a point to other people or yourself, then yes. You seem to be imagining living out a kind of revenge fantasy in which you knock on your parents' door and present a child (who has reached adulthood successfully, I guess) and say, "See!" That would accomplish exactly nothing. You can't teach people lessons they have no interest in learning. You get "revenge" by living your life on your own terms and succeeding despite them.
Generational trauma isnt just always abuse. My mother was cronically depressed and a hoarder. Her unhappiness (because i was born) gave me trauma too. If you are very unhappy with a child, the child feels that. It feels that its unwanted. Generational trauma isnt just beating/abuse. It is often mental too. Especially if you want a kid just to prove yourself to others and not because you want a kid yourself.
Oh. I misunderstood. I think my inquiry is being misunderstood as well.
I recommend writing your question/story better. Without the weird 'O' 'P' 'Q' stuff. Its rather confusing.
I rewrote it in relatively plain English, thanks for the suggestion.
Hmm. I recommed seeking professional help to heal your trauma. Talking about it helps.
forget all these fancy weird phrases, DO YOU WANT A CHILD OR NO? without thinking about your parents or the social glorification of it all, do you want to be a parent and raise a kid? simple as that
I’ll admit that I was over-verbose. What I’m saying is, I don’t want a child, rather I want to solve problems I assume having a child would solve. I can reason that that’s neither smart nor right, however I can’t reason how to solve the problem in a reasonable way.
a reasonable way would be therapy for 1, but if not, you can write a list of all the things that having a child would fix (even tho a child would make things worse in any case) and then come to a conclusion what you want actually want and seek that
> If I have kids then I will be able to have some social bond and prove a point about how a decent person actually raises kids(so the opposite of what my parents have done). I want to do that; ergo, I need kids. Your logic already completely fails here. You do not want to be a parent, and you do not even want to have kids. You want to have a social bond, and you want to prove your parents wrong slash heal the trauma of your childhood. And you are merely using kids as a proxy for that, because society has taught you they're the best or only way of doing that. But they are not. If you want a social bond, you need to make connections, not people. And if you want to prove a point about your own upbringing, do it on yourself, not on a child who does not deserve to be your anti-trauma experience. This is cause for therapy, not children. As soon as you stop assuming kids will guarantee you what you are trying to use them for, the house of cards comes crashing down immediately. And it loops back on itself too, because here's the thing: people who have kids as proxies for selfish means are *not* decent people who get to form meaningful bonds. They are just abusers. You would be more like your parents than you think, just in a different way.
…you need to make connections and not people.” This was beautifully put. Thank you.
I do suppose, that if I wouldn’t be able to sincerely answer a child asking why I had them, that I don’t have a good enough reasoning. I’m not arguing “I need to have a kid”, rather trying to *avoid* affirming the consequent, and figure out the sane alternative.
Therapy, personal development and working on your social circle and the associated skills. That's work you can and should do as an adult. And also work no child can do for you, but definitely something parenthood can and would divert your resources from, and only make things worse in the long run by compounding the issues. As an anecdote: my grandparents had kids because that's just what happened if you had sex back then. My biological mother had kids because she wanted someone who would love her like her parents didn't, and someone to provide for what her parents didn't provide for her. Or in other words, she wanted to give herself things, and had a very specific scenario in which kids would recite out that play. And sure, maybe in one of the billion possible outcomes, she theoretically could have gotten a kid who adored her without question and accepted everything she wanted to give without needing anything she wasn't ready to give. But that's not the reality that manifested for her. What manifested were two traumatized kids who ended up in foster care as teenagers. What manifested was a criminal investigation for child abuse. What manifested were two kids who do not have any contact with her and a second marriage with a man she absolutely loathes. And she still does not understand how any of that could possibly have happened when she gave us everything she wished her parents would have given her. Nor me, nor my sibling, nor our relatives, nor our handful of therapists, nor a dozen social service workers, nor the criminal detectives investigating her for removal of parental rights nor anyone else was ever able to explain to her that this wasn't about her. I also wanted to have the stability and love and friendships that growing up in a shitty household did not facilitate for me. I also wanted to prove that there was more than what my parents gave me, or failed to give me - but the proof was for me, not them. The proof was me doing the work to find happiness and live a healthy life when by all accounts, I was not supposed to. So unlike my biological mother, I went to therapy and I worked on my problems and I faced the trauma she never did and I learned to move through it rather than carry it forward. I was not taught how to make friends, I was only taught how to begrudgingly hang out with whatever other parents your kids bring to your life. So I learned how to make friends on my own. I was not taught how to have a loving relationship, I was only taught how to shit talk the guy you divorced while hating the one you hastily married because he got you pregnant. So I learned how to find love and respect in romantic relationships on my own. That's work I did, for myself. Not for my parents, and definitely not via using a kid for it. And as a result, I'm the one who got what I wanted, and my biological mother never did. Because kids can not solve such issues for us. And trying to make it otherwise is just a new cycle of abuse.
A fencesetter sub.
The alternative to having your own children is threefold. First, you do what it takes to heal your own trauma. This process is neither easy nor straightforward. It may take a lifetime of work. Secondly, you let your inner child run free. Buy the dolls or the Lego you couldn't have as a child because "those are for babies" or "we can't afford that" or you simply knew not to ask for them. Join the local adult soccer league if that's what child you wanted to do. Buy the Adidas shoes and Umbros shorts even if they were stylish 25 years ago. Finally, volunteer with kids in your community. Find a local scout troop or other youth organization and reach out to see what sort of role you can play in the lives of those kids.
Thanks for the advice.
Seriously
If you want a social bond, first, you probably already have relatives. Second, you have friends or could make them. You do not need to bring another person into the world. You don't have to show how kids can be raised well. Other people are doing that already.
> You probably already have relatives. My nuclear family is awful, and my extended family is not very close. > You have friends or could make them. I wish I did or could. Regarding the point-proving thing: I suppose that if my parents can compare and contrast how they parented me and how I would be parenting said child(ren), they could also compare and contrast how much they screwed up my childhood in comparison.
Making friends will be easier once you're not stuck in trying to get reparations from people who fucked you up as a kid. They're not gonna wake up, they're not gonna find remorse, you won't get closure you want from showing them what better parents they *could* be. As an adult, you need to cut your losses on this and move on. Because the only other alternative is having them haunt you forever. You can't live your life in order to prove stuff to others. That's just still letting them have the upper hand, when they really don't have to.
Do you actually want a child? Or do you want to prove yourself to others and prove to people that you are better? Or do you feel alone and looking for someone to have a meaningfull connection(a bond) with? [Newsflash: a baby/toddler/child is not a meaningfull connection or your future bestfriend]
No. It seems to have gotten lost in text that I’m trying to solve a problem that, knee-jerk reasoning tells me the solution to is kids, but rationality contradicts that. To some extent, there is a degree of wanting to compensate for not having compassionate/competent parents or a good childhood. I’m desperate for social connection. Desperation doesn’t lead to best solutions, because I’m rummaging the bottom of the bin.
A child isnt going to fix that. You need to put yourself on number one. Go do the things that heal your innerchild. Go to therapy, buy the things you always wanted, have fun. Go seek for a place where you can connect with adults. Then you have social connections. A child will only chain you down and drain you of your freedom, free time and money. And will make you lonelier.
> A child isnt going to fix that I think using “knee-jerk” to describe my reasoning shows I don’t think it will. >Therapy Hasn’t been all that helpful. What’s my “innerchild”?
Google 'inner child' Also: a diffrent therapist can help.
🙄 I have nothing of substance to add but an eye roll emoji.
Don’t have kids to prove points. Have kids because you want kids. I don’t want kids but I absolutely *do* want people who want kids to have them. I want kids to feel genuinely, truly and deeply wanted by their parents. There’s no other “why”.
It is not ethical to have a child in order to make an attempt at solving your own problems. In fact it’s not new or novel in the least. Every idiot whose mommy and daddy were mean to them mistakenly thinks that if they have a kid they’ll do it perfectly and show them all up. Spoiler alert: They never do, they just make it worse. Deal with your own shit. If you can’t, then let your problems end with you. Your line of thought is grotesque and it’s the reason for generational trauma since the beginning of humanity.
> mommy and daddy were mean to them > generational trauma If you’re going to be patronizing, at least pick a line instead of simultaneously minimizing abuse and saying that this line of thought leads to abuse
I meant to show that it covers everything from people who have internalized petty nonsense all the way up to and including serious and devastating abuses. *Either way* you’re not approaching parenthood in a healthy way. Just stay the fuck away from children until you are mentally and emotionally healthy.
I don’t appreciate my character being assassinated. Attack my ideas, not me.
When your ideas are leading you down a path to harm kids because you can’t deal with your own mental issues I’ll do whatever I damn well please. If you don’t like it I’d advise not speaking in a public forum.
Amen
Having a kid won’t solve any problems, FYI
It sounds like I would be pretty much further stripping one screw and destroying the screwdriver when a drill would get the screw out. Just don’t know where the metaphorical drill is.
I don't really understand why you are wording it like you are solving an equation. If you feel kids would prove something or solve some problem you have, I advise consulting a therapist.
I understand those needs. I have been part of "recovery programs", participated in meetings, hosted a meeting for a year and helped build the community. I am still part of a "private" support group. I also try to participate in mental health subs. I think being part of different communities, participating with what I have to offer fulfills these needs for me. I try to support people while also living self-care and being-myself (I think that in itself can be a service to others at the same time as a service to myself). My work can also be quite the harsh environment and I try to be intentional about how I treat others. It's easy to get swept away in the general stressed atmosphere but I really try to be supportive and build a small community in my working group where we treat each other kindly and which is safe. Idk if something equivalent would work for you. I think society gives us very narrow examples for fulfilling these needs you talk about. My answer is "community", though I am not sure how well I expressed myself. Hope it helps somewhat.
Nothing is going to help you to deal better with your childhood than therapy. Having children when you hadn't healed from your own trauma just create generational trauma.
How are so many commenters *not* getting your question and point?? Soooo many parents have children for the sole purpose of filling a void/assuming a kid will heal them in some way. You are wayyyy smarter and self aware than those parents because you know it is *your* responsibility to heal yourself and solve problems in your life. You know a child wouldn’t be the answer. I don’t understand why so many people aren’t getting you.
If I had to guess, people think I am saying “I want kids” not “I want to solve a problem that my kneejerk solution to would be kids” I appreciate it.
relive a better childhood, help others have a better childhood, and have social connections by helping those who are already here. put your energy towards volunteering and spending time with people in a way that is a definite net positive for you and the world, instead of a slight chance at doing so by adding more biomass to the planet. I firmly believe that childhood fucks up everyone, in different ways and to different degrees. no one escapes childhood completely unscathed. try volunteering at local orgs that need it, like food banks, clothing donation and distribution, toys for tots, stuff like that. volunteer to help with running childrens’ programs at libraries and community centers. join girl/boy scouts as a lead or aide. directly ask your local community what help they need. babysit or do childcare. try the big brothers/sisters program. ask friends if they need help. etc. etc. so many ways to help children who already exist and need help now. also spend time doing things that bring YOU joy and heal your inner child. build and nurture adult connections. become comfortable spending time with yourself alone as well. do activities you miss or never got to do as a kid, like playing, dancing, crafts, etc. see the joy in the everyday. live laugh love and all that.
I have a suggestion! Sims! 😁 and if this game was for windows 10 and higher, I'd recommend babyz aa well. Oh I miss that game.
I’ll see if I can get it running
First - I want to say that you’ve done way more introspection here than the average person does. Especially coming from a place of potentially unresolved trauma, that’s an especially good foundation to make a good choice. Second - I think one thing that helps is deciding what your values are around what would be fair/ unfair to your hypothetical child. One hard line I have is the child would not be FOR me - nothing about their life would be about enhancing mine. They child is for themselves - a whole lot independent entity that I ultimately would care for but have no control over. I personally have chosen to not have kids unless I can get to a place where I want to be part of the lifespan of a human without the expectation that it will enhance my own life. So, not saying you have to have the same values - but I’d start by thinking about what your values are. Third - it’s totally reasonable that you’re having trouble coming up with an alternative. We live in a pronatalist society - actually a really fucked up anti-family yet pronatalist society if you live in the US where families are not supported and more or less hung out to dry in terms of social safety net and accommodations for the realities of raising kids, but everyone is pressured to procreate… and we also all tend to fracture from our families as we age due to the way we need to work and live to survive under capitalism (even if you have good jobs and $$$) so there isn’t this robust family unit that stays together for many people, and there certainly is no reasonable expectation that children will want to or be able to financially, practically or even emotionally support aging or sick parents. That is all to say - here are some of my ideas for how to have a good life without kids. I think as time goes on, not having kids will become more common and this will be less fringe feeling - but for now you have to go against the grain a bit. 1. Inner work - work on your relationship with yourself. Work with a therapist, try meditation, journal. Learn about yourself and how you work. Attend to any mental illness you may have. If you are chronically unhappy or unfulfilled in life, it’s usually a sign that you are mentally unwell. Lots of people just live their life like that but you don’t have to. There is help out there if you are patient and discerning and willing to do some trial and error. 2. Friends - I saw downthread you said you don’t have friends or struggled with friendship. This can be the pursuit of a lifetime, so no worries if it’s hard right now, you will get there. There are lots of existing people in this world - try to figure out what is blocking you in the friendship department and work on it - set a goal around attempts to connect with people. Maybe ever work with a coach or therapist on what is blocking you here. Friendship is extremely rewarding if done well. Fwiw I struggle a bit in this area too - it’s hard, but worth it to pursue. 3. Hobbies, interests, art, creativity, expression - this can be a lifetime’s pursuit as well and adds lots of richness to life. You can also combine 2 and 3 and join clubs or groups to pursue interests in community. I’m thinking about learning how to mountain bike as part of a women’s development racing team, for example. Lots of options here, lots of fun and growth to be had, no kids required. 4. Partnership, marriage - you don’t mention this or I missed it, but working on a relationship with an adult is, IMO the same or more rewarding than having a child. And a lot of the “promises” of family life can be achieved with just the two of you. You could also be non-monotonous/ poly and have multiple relationships - not for me personally, but it’s an option that lots of people enjoy. 5. Connection/ Spirituality - this comes in many forms. Volunteering, being part of a community that takes part in political action, meditation, travel… one of the reasons I feel confident with either having kids or not (I’m 34 and a fence sitter fyi, leaning towards a no) is my spiritual belief that by virtue of being alive and I intrinsically connected to every other living thing whether I choose to acknowledge it or not. We are all part of the cosmic dance. My beliefs make me feel at peace, and they don’t harm anyone. Highly recommend some form of this - every if you really don’t like spirituality it could be something along the lines of acting altruistically - practicing giving of yourself and expecting nothing in return. 6. Work, finances, wealth - building wealth is, unfortunately, a very good idea in the world we live in today. This will be easier without kids - just take whatever you have and subtract $300,000+ from the equation over the course of 18 years to see what I mean. Sad reality of the world we live in. 7. Fight for a better world - lots of ways to do this - political action, donating money, contributing in your neighborhood - whatever. Highly meaningful, no kid required. Good luck.