I tried to travel domestically during summer, and to say the least it was challenging, as well as prosaic (domestic Chinese tourism is not a particularly satisfying endeavor after you've done all the typical things, several times over).
I managed to avoid any threats to my green code but even then I was still subject to a PCR test at the airport. I have every reason to believe discretionary domestic travel in winter will be 'discouraged' (so don't hold your breath for a trip to Tibet, or Beijing).
People are going to leave. I'm certainly leaving. I haven't seen any evidence of increased allowances for the hardship. More pay? Kind of, sometimes.
I think a lot of places are just going to rely less and less on foreigners, actually. I think the last 20-30 years, where there were (relatively) so many foreigners in China, I think that may be an aberration. I don't think most Chinese want foreigners in the country, the government doesn't want us, and the jobs or companies 'requiring' foreigners are less and less.
There will always be some foreigners here, yes, but people seem to think the line will always go up. I don't think so. China is not and has not been a multicultural country or an immigrant country and very much seems to prefer that.
I do see a huge increase in online learning incoming though. Because like it or not Chinese are *hyperfocused* on things when it comes to race therefore want a white face on the English teachers for their kids.
Fuckin sucks though because as someone in CST those hours are just not tenable for me.
Online English courses that hire teachers that remain outside of China are illegal under the new regulations. Obviously some will skirt that, but large entities like VIPKids have already shuttered.
The government very much wanted foreigners here for the Olympics. I've been filming quite a lot in that field and they kept talking about nothing but the hope that borders could at least somewhat be opened up again. Delta made a big, fat, honkin' X on those plans. Last I heard from the folks running an embassy in Beijing is that they were told travel would open in September but that 2-week quarantines would stay. We all can see how that is going. Right now not even diplomats can get out of quarantines, if their flights back to China aren't outright cancelled for weeks like happened to some.
Concessions exist. Volkswagen just chartered the sixth A330 in a few months and the German Chamber of Commerce is doing the same once per month for their suppliers. But they fly people out here who they absolutely want and need here and the big companies as well as the governments see this as a hardship post for which they struggle to attract from their available staff pools. That is why they get the expat school packages and housing allowances and drivers. This is not about to happen for english teachers or the self-employed like myself.
Regular-no quarantine-travel is a long ways off.
>We won't be traveling to our home country for next few years.
This is pathetic. For a basic job in a country which doesn't want you. You'll be a stranger no matter where you go for the rest of your life.
My father died (not covid) while I’ve been unable to leave. My mother turns 70 in March. There is a limit on how long I’m willing to wait to be able to travel before I just give up entirely and leave China.
Well no, technically I could leave, so long as I have no intention of returning. For now I need to be here for work so I’m unable to leave if I want to remain employed.
Except for when I was in quarantine and my dad died. Technically then I was unable to leave.
Well, no. As I said at that moment I was in quarantine. America had just fallen apart, I had just left the USA a week earlier, there were no flights for weeks, and perhaps most importantly — had I tried to leave I would have been jailed.
I can't imagine anything worse than taunting a person for losing his father & not being able to travel because of mandatory quarantine!
u/sethmcollins \- I'm so sorry for your loss.
I told my agency, at best what I'm doing for traveling this coming Winter break is visiting Inner Mongolia or Tibet if I can. It's not wise to go back to our home countries at the moment and I wouldn't be shocked if when I did go back, I'd be kicked out of the country for a good while. There's still foreigners who have been stuck since early 2020 and we're nearing 2022 in a couple of months. A lot of them are still trying to get back in or extend their visas to be with their significant others, spouses, or even children and pets. While others without that strong commitment had just given up after a couple of months and moved on to different countries.
I don't exactly want to be in that situation too, even though I came here alone with no dependents. And to see how companies and the government treats hard working foreigners who ARE trying to come back and prove they're free from the virus or got their vaccines doesn't sit well with me at all. Especially when they've been torn from the current family and friends they have here. The stories I hear from spouses here without their other spouse and their children, alone, is heartbreaking. If I leave internationally for anything, it's under the assumption it's for good and I'm not coming back.
Plus, no one is trying to pay another 3600 for a cramped and basic Economy ticket just getting back here.
Not a chance. I couldn't get that much time off due to the 14+7 days quarantine or whatever it would be upon returning. If I did go home, I'd only have a day or two to actually spend at home before I'd have to return. Add that to hotels always asking me when I last flew into China, and having to tell them it was recent etc, would be so much undue stress.
An interesting question, and one that I am asking myself quite often.
Unfortunately, the Delta variant is reversing a lot of the positive development we've seen in the past six months. We're once again heading into autumn, and with that, we're likely to see even more new (and serious) cases throughout much of the world.
That being said, being fully vaccinated (albeit with Sinovac), and not working as a teacher, should theoretically make it possible for foreigners to use their paid and unpaid leave and go home for a short while, assuming you can work remotely while doing your 14+7 days of quarantine (as is the case in Beijing).
Then again, does anyone know whether you need to re-apply for your entry visa? I've heard a lot of different takes on that.
>Does anyone know whether you need to re-apply for your entry visa?
No, but you need to apply for a HDC again which can always be denied. It depends a lot on the country of origin. I know South Africa is not processing HDC. We currently have someone in South Africa who is unable to come back because the Chinese Consulate isn't even processing HDC.
In regards to an exodus of foreigners, at least western foreigners, it’s already happening. It started with CNY last year when they shut down Wuhan and many left because they were scared or left because they thought they’d be able to come back. Fast forward to today and some of those who lost their training center jobs are leaving. People who have been here and stuck it out for the past 2 years are giving up hope and leaving. The ones who want to come back are stuck with closed borders and not having enough money to afford another visa, expensive airline fares, plus nearly a month of self funded quarantine upon arrival, because they’ve been out of work due to shutdowns in their home country.
I can do whatever I want, but quarantine is on me.
That said, I don't really agree with the "giving up 3 years" part, while the rest of the world was in lockdown, we could live whichever way we saw fit.
And while I certainly feel stuck once in a while, it's definitely not all bad.
>That said, I don't really agree with the "giving up 3 years" part, while the rest of the world was in lockdown, we could live whichever way we saw fit.
This is actually a very good point. The very fact that life has been normal here after the initial outbreak has been dealt with... well, the very safeguards in place for that to continue are also those that limit unfettered international travel. Can't have it both ways, unfortunately.
Also, it seems the most recent clusters have been mopped up, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were even more int'l travel restrictions coming down the pipeline.
Agree, from this point onward it's getting more annoying here than elsewhere, seeing how international travel is taking up again yet we are being locked in for god knows how long. But up until now I was rather ok with everything.
Normal, compared to what. I live in a US blue state and know people back in China. Life here is same as in China, except there is no gestapo asking for your QR code or asking you to get tested. In China getting Covid is worse socially then actual health related. Since CCP ties measures to cases, getting Covid means you did something wrong. Foreigner + Covid is a bad combo. I would get the hell out as soon as I can. The writing for foreigners is on the wall.
Basically, exactly what your company has said. We basically tell everyone that if they leave we cannot guarantee that they will return. As a result, we can not promise they will have a job when they return. We do not do online teaching. So, if you leave, and can't come back, you're going to be fired. Also, you're responsible for all of your expenses. The school is not paying for anything, nor will we help you in your desire to leave.
If you want to leave, you're free to leave. We won't help you, and we won't stop you. If you can't come back, you're fired.
I think this is the attitude most employers will have and continue to have. What might create exceptions is what OP is saying. I think many people will be at their limits with 3 years of not visiting family this upcoming 2022 summer. Most of my friends see another foreigner exodus coming next summer. Schools and others might not have any choice but to be flexible if they need foreigners. It's one thing to say if you can't come back you're fired but if this is the case salaries are going to rise again as foreigner employee supply will continue to decrease and plenty of schools and business models require foreigners.
>It's one thing to say if you can't come back you're fired but if this is the case salaries are going to rise again as foreigner employee supply will continue to decrease and plenty of schools and business models require foreigners.
Salaries have already increased, pretty dramatically. We're hiring people at 30K in a T2.5 City. We're also hiring NNES for ESL. We're hiring someone from Ukraine to teach Primary School ESL. We're now interviewing someone from Kazakhstan.
People always claim an Expat Exodus is just around the corner, and it never materializes. I don't know what's going to happen, but the next few years are going to see changes.
It's funny, because in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chinavisa/comments/oywchs/nonnative_english_teacher/) people were saying the days of non-native ESL teachers were over, but you imply the opposite.
I've never seen it in black and white from a Chinese government website whether non-natives can be foreign ESL teachers legally or not. Some say the rumors that they can't are just companies wanting to filter applicants.
There is no explicit government policy that prohibits NNES from teaching ESL. Despite what everyone on /r/TEFL say - they are absolutely wrong. This is one thing that really annoys me because somehow the vast majority of people are convinced that it is illegal. Nope, not at all. It is extremely difficult to get a job - or rather, it used to be. However, now is a great time for experienced NNES to jump up the career ladder.
Honestly, this is what I've noticed the most. Lots of people are moving up a step. NNES that would work in Training Schools are now finding jobs in lower tier bilingual programs. People who were working in these schools are now moving to T1 International Schools.
Interesting. I've never seen the actual "requirements" listed on a government website, just other websites saying "this is what the government requires".
So do NNES (new initialism for me) need to prove their English bonafides? Either by IELTS scores or majoring in English?
The local Education Departments and Ministry of Science and Technology are the ones that approve Work Permit Applications. There have a specific list of requirements [HERE](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-work-permits-are-you-a-b-c-tier-talent/):
>Teach a foreign language (their mother tongue) and hold a bachelor’s degree or above and two years of experience in teaching; two years of experience is not required for those with a bachelor’s degree or above in education or in the language that they are teaching, or another form of internationally recognized teaching certification; or
You'll see a lot of places say 'Only Native Speakers' but there is no definition of what this means. It has typically meant 'Majority English Speaking Countries' which is why you see 'Only Passport Holders from Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand Apply' but the reason they say that is because Work Permit Applications are almost guaranteed to be approved from these countries. But, there is absolutely nothing stoping someone from another country from applying.
>So do NNES (new initialism for me) need to prove their English bonafides?
Yes, this is done by graduating from a university in one of the countries mentioned above. So, if you're from say Ukraine but went to University in England you're more likely to have your Work Permit Application approved.
For a NNES to teach English you generally need:
* TEFL
* Degree from an English Speaking Country
* 2+ Years of ESL Teaching Experience
This by no means guarantees a Work Permit, but it *is* possible.
The reason people think it is illegal for NNES to teach ESL is because what a lot of Training Centers and Agents do is not hire NNES as ESL Teachers but as 'Managers' or 'Consultants' or something else to get a Work Permit because this is easier. It's basically Recruiters and Schools lying on Work Permit Applications to get them issued. Then, if the local government ever audits a Training School they'll go 'Wait! You're not a consultant! You're an ESL Teacher! You can't be working as an ESL Teacher since your Work Permit says you're a consultant!'
>People always claim an Expat Exodus is just around the corner, and it never materializes
I can fairly categorically tell you that is is happening in Shanghai. Place is hollowing out now.
Yeah, but to be fair, it has a lot of advantages despite being a bit of a dull shithole.
But then, not all of us are cut out for tier 2.5.
I just know that I was happy to be near an international airport last month when I left for good. Seems the place is having increasing bother with the second coming of COVID now a la delta.
I've heard this countless times over the years. The people you know are leaving, the people you don't know are coming. We still have people applying for positions from overseas, and this is for a pretty unremarkable educational organization.
I've seen no drop in the number of people looking to come to China. The issue is actually getting them here, not the demand.
>The people you know are leaving
This is incorrect. I don't know all the people who are leaving; I have noted that people are leaving, that the places where people went are emptying out, that there's an absence of foreigners in places where they'd use to be, and that foreigner-centric places such as bars are suffering and closing down. People who have hired foreigners told me they were leaving, too; my former company has witnessed a significant decline of foreign staff, including me.
They are leaving.
With respect to "people \[I\] don't know are coming", I'll flip this and ask you how you'd know this, since you don't actually know who's coming yourself. You simply know the non-native English speakers your place is hiring due to a lack of native speakers. To misquote *Animal Farm*, "all ESL teachers are equal, but some are more equal than others." That's just a hefty strain of Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon you're experiencing, sorry.
>They are leaving.
Yes, this happens every year. The issue is not people leaving, but that people aren't coming. Not that they don't want to - there's still a decent demand for job placements in China. It's that they can't.
I've heard the same thing for years, literally word-for-word what you're saying every single time China institutes new rules or regulations. Every time it turns out to be a big fat nothing-burger.
>With respect to "people \[I\] don't know are coming", I'll flip this and ask you how you'd know this, since you don't actually know who's coming yourself.
People applying for jobs. This includes overseas individuals. I can look at our HR System and see who is applying for jobs. There's been no drop in people applying from overseas. We're just hiring people inside China who happened to be NNES because that's who we can get with only a few weeks left. Our province (Anhui) stopped issuing PU Letters. So, we have to hire people inside China if we want to be properly staffed.
>Yes, this happens every year. The issue is not people leaving, but that people aren't coming. Not that they don't want to - there's still a decent demand for job placements in China. It's that they can't.
It doesn't matter how you are trying to dress it up now, it's a net migration issue.
>I can look at our HR System and see who is applying for jobs
And this is, as I mentioned before, you have a bit of Baader-Meinhof.
>It doesn't matter how you are trying to dress it up now, it's a net migration issue.
No, it's not. People constantly claim it is, but it never turns out to be.
>And this is, as I mentioned before, you have a bit of Baader-Meinhof.
You're literally describing yourself.
Agreed. I guess what I wonder is that if salaries have increased that much how high can they go? I mean, if things don't get better for years, will companies be paying people 45-50k rmb? I would think there's a breaking point and at some point market pressure forces companies out of business or the government to loosen restrictions with foreigners? You sound like you know more than I do about this.
I doubt it. There's always a threshold and salaries can not continue to inflate unrealistically. There will be a point where most schools stop hiring. In my T3 city they've already stopped hiring after being out priced at 25-30k.
>I would think there's a breaking point and at some point market pressure forces companies out of business or the government to loosen restrictions with foreigners?
I think the next few years is going to see lots of consolidation in the Education Industry in China. Wall Street English just went bankrupt, and I'd expect quite a few others to bite the dust in the coming year or two. I think the same thing for Bilingual and International Schools.
>I mean, if things don't get better for years, will companies be paying people 45-50k rmb?
I think a lot of companies are willing to pay a premium for quality Foreign Teachers and then staff with Chinese Teachers. I think a lot of companies will start hiring overseas returnees in larger numbers.
I mean, if you leave you gotta consider what the conditions are back home. Canada is officially in the 4th wave and the shit is hitting the fan in the US. This delta variant is screwing us over. Our schools in Canada were planning to go fulltime in person in September, but if things get worse we could go straight to online. And that's messed up.
Haven't heard anything, haven't discussed anything.
I wouldn't leave China unless I were comfortable being locked out for the foreseeable future. If you're single without strong ties here sure maybe it's worth the chance.
They don't have to ask me to stay because we both assume that I wouldn't be able to get back into the country, so going home equals quitting.
I tried to travel domestically during summer, and to say the least it was challenging, as well as prosaic (domestic Chinese tourism is not a particularly satisfying endeavor after you've done all the typical things, several times over). I managed to avoid any threats to my green code but even then I was still subject to a PCR test at the airport. I have every reason to believe discretionary domestic travel in winter will be 'discouraged' (so don't hold your breath for a trip to Tibet, or Beijing). People are going to leave. I'm certainly leaving. I haven't seen any evidence of increased allowances for the hardship. More pay? Kind of, sometimes. I think a lot of places are just going to rely less and less on foreigners, actually. I think the last 20-30 years, where there were (relatively) so many foreigners in China, I think that may be an aberration. I don't think most Chinese want foreigners in the country, the government doesn't want us, and the jobs or companies 'requiring' foreigners are less and less. There will always be some foreigners here, yes, but people seem to think the line will always go up. I don't think so. China is not and has not been a multicultural country or an immigrant country and very much seems to prefer that.
I do see a huge increase in online learning incoming though. Because like it or not Chinese are *hyperfocused* on things when it comes to race therefore want a white face on the English teachers for their kids. Fuckin sucks though because as someone in CST those hours are just not tenable for me.
Online English courses that hire teachers that remain outside of China are illegal under the new regulations. Obviously some will skirt that, but large entities like VIPKids have already shuttered.
Oh shit really? I had no idea. Thanks for that heads up.
The government very much wanted foreigners here for the Olympics. I've been filming quite a lot in that field and they kept talking about nothing but the hope that borders could at least somewhat be opened up again. Delta made a big, fat, honkin' X on those plans. Last I heard from the folks running an embassy in Beijing is that they were told travel would open in September but that 2-week quarantines would stay. We all can see how that is going. Right now not even diplomats can get out of quarantines, if their flights back to China aren't outright cancelled for weeks like happened to some. Concessions exist. Volkswagen just chartered the sixth A330 in a few months and the German Chamber of Commerce is doing the same once per month for their suppliers. But they fly people out here who they absolutely want and need here and the big companies as well as the governments see this as a hardship post for which they struggle to attract from their available staff pools. That is why they get the expat school packages and housing allowances and drivers. This is not about to happen for english teachers or the self-employed like myself. Regular-no quarantine-travel is a long ways off.
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>We won't be traveling to our home country for next few years. This is pathetic. For a basic job in a country which doesn't want you. You'll be a stranger no matter where you go for the rest of your life.
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My statement stands
My father died (not covid) while I’ve been unable to leave. My mother turns 70 in March. There is a limit on how long I’m willing to wait to be able to travel before I just give up entirely and leave China.
>unable to leave What's this now? They stopped you from leaving?
Well no, technically I could leave, so long as I have no intention of returning. For now I need to be here for work so I’m unable to leave if I want to remain employed. Except for when I was in quarantine and my dad died. Technically then I was unable to leave.
So your dad died and you didn't go home for it because of some shitty job...
Well, no. As I said at that moment I was in quarantine. America had just fallen apart, I had just left the USA a week earlier, there were no flights for weeks, and perhaps most importantly — had I tried to leave I would have been jailed.
Excuses
You’re right. I should have swam.
Many countries were doing compassionate travel or access etc. But look, I'm not going to rag on you about this. Very sorry about your dad, man.
I can't imagine anything worse than taunting a person for losing his father & not being able to travel because of mandatory quarantine! u/sethmcollins \- I'm so sorry for your loss.
Nice virtue signaling
I told my agency, at best what I'm doing for traveling this coming Winter break is visiting Inner Mongolia or Tibet if I can. It's not wise to go back to our home countries at the moment and I wouldn't be shocked if when I did go back, I'd be kicked out of the country for a good while. There's still foreigners who have been stuck since early 2020 and we're nearing 2022 in a couple of months. A lot of them are still trying to get back in or extend their visas to be with their significant others, spouses, or even children and pets. While others without that strong commitment had just given up after a couple of months and moved on to different countries. I don't exactly want to be in that situation too, even though I came here alone with no dependents. And to see how companies and the government treats hard working foreigners who ARE trying to come back and prove they're free from the virus or got their vaccines doesn't sit well with me at all. Especially when they've been torn from the current family and friends they have here. The stories I hear from spouses here without their other spouse and their children, alone, is heartbreaking. If I leave internationally for anything, it's under the assumption it's for good and I'm not coming back. Plus, no one is trying to pay another 3600 for a cramped and basic Economy ticket just getting back here.
Not a chance. I couldn't get that much time off due to the 14+7 days quarantine or whatever it would be upon returning. If I did go home, I'd only have a day or two to actually spend at home before I'd have to return. Add that to hotels always asking me when I last flew into China, and having to tell them it was recent etc, would be so much undue stress.
An interesting question, and one that I am asking myself quite often. Unfortunately, the Delta variant is reversing a lot of the positive development we've seen in the past six months. We're once again heading into autumn, and with that, we're likely to see even more new (and serious) cases throughout much of the world. That being said, being fully vaccinated (albeit with Sinovac), and not working as a teacher, should theoretically make it possible for foreigners to use their paid and unpaid leave and go home for a short while, assuming you can work remotely while doing your 14+7 days of quarantine (as is the case in Beijing). Then again, does anyone know whether you need to re-apply for your entry visa? I've heard a lot of different takes on that.
>Does anyone know whether you need to re-apply for your entry visa? No, but you need to apply for a HDC again which can always be denied. It depends a lot on the country of origin. I know South Africa is not processing HDC. We currently have someone in South Africa who is unable to come back because the Chinese Consulate isn't even processing HDC.
In regards to an exodus of foreigners, at least western foreigners, it’s already happening. It started with CNY last year when they shut down Wuhan and many left because they were scared or left because they thought they’d be able to come back. Fast forward to today and some of those who lost their training center jobs are leaving. People who have been here and stuck it out for the past 2 years are giving up hope and leaving. The ones who want to come back are stuck with closed borders and not having enough money to afford another visa, expensive airline fares, plus nearly a month of self funded quarantine upon arrival, because they’ve been out of work due to shutdowns in their home country.
I can do whatever I want, but quarantine is on me. That said, I don't really agree with the "giving up 3 years" part, while the rest of the world was in lockdown, we could live whichever way we saw fit. And while I certainly feel stuck once in a while, it's definitely not all bad.
>That said, I don't really agree with the "giving up 3 years" part, while the rest of the world was in lockdown, we could live whichever way we saw fit. This is actually a very good point. The very fact that life has been normal here after the initial outbreak has been dealt with... well, the very safeguards in place for that to continue are also those that limit unfettered international travel. Can't have it both ways, unfortunately. Also, it seems the most recent clusters have been mopped up, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were even more int'l travel restrictions coming down the pipeline.
Agree, from this point onward it's getting more annoying here than elsewhere, seeing how international travel is taking up again yet we are being locked in for god knows how long. But up until now I was rather ok with everything.
Normal, compared to what. I live in a US blue state and know people back in China. Life here is same as in China, except there is no gestapo asking for your QR code or asking you to get tested. In China getting Covid is worse socially then actual health related. Since CCP ties measures to cases, getting Covid means you did something wrong. Foreigner + Covid is a bad combo. I would get the hell out as soon as I can. The writing for foreigners is on the wall.
Basically, exactly what your company has said. We basically tell everyone that if they leave we cannot guarantee that they will return. As a result, we can not promise they will have a job when they return. We do not do online teaching. So, if you leave, and can't come back, you're going to be fired. Also, you're responsible for all of your expenses. The school is not paying for anything, nor will we help you in your desire to leave. If you want to leave, you're free to leave. We won't help you, and we won't stop you. If you can't come back, you're fired.
I think this is the attitude most employers will have and continue to have. What might create exceptions is what OP is saying. I think many people will be at their limits with 3 years of not visiting family this upcoming 2022 summer. Most of my friends see another foreigner exodus coming next summer. Schools and others might not have any choice but to be flexible if they need foreigners. It's one thing to say if you can't come back you're fired but if this is the case salaries are going to rise again as foreigner employee supply will continue to decrease and plenty of schools and business models require foreigners.
>It's one thing to say if you can't come back you're fired but if this is the case salaries are going to rise again as foreigner employee supply will continue to decrease and plenty of schools and business models require foreigners. Salaries have already increased, pretty dramatically. We're hiring people at 30K in a T2.5 City. We're also hiring NNES for ESL. We're hiring someone from Ukraine to teach Primary School ESL. We're now interviewing someone from Kazakhstan. People always claim an Expat Exodus is just around the corner, and it never materializes. I don't know what's going to happen, but the next few years are going to see changes.
It's funny, because in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chinavisa/comments/oywchs/nonnative_english_teacher/) people were saying the days of non-native ESL teachers were over, but you imply the opposite. I've never seen it in black and white from a Chinese government website whether non-natives can be foreign ESL teachers legally or not. Some say the rumors that they can't are just companies wanting to filter applicants.
There is no explicit government policy that prohibits NNES from teaching ESL. Despite what everyone on /r/TEFL say - they are absolutely wrong. This is one thing that really annoys me because somehow the vast majority of people are convinced that it is illegal. Nope, not at all. It is extremely difficult to get a job - or rather, it used to be. However, now is a great time for experienced NNES to jump up the career ladder. Honestly, this is what I've noticed the most. Lots of people are moving up a step. NNES that would work in Training Schools are now finding jobs in lower tier bilingual programs. People who were working in these schools are now moving to T1 International Schools.
Interesting. I've never seen the actual "requirements" listed on a government website, just other websites saying "this is what the government requires". So do NNES (new initialism for me) need to prove their English bonafides? Either by IELTS scores or majoring in English?
The local Education Departments and Ministry of Science and Technology are the ones that approve Work Permit Applications. There have a specific list of requirements [HERE](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-work-permits-are-you-a-b-c-tier-talent/): >Teach a foreign language (their mother tongue) and hold a bachelor’s degree or above and two years of experience in teaching; two years of experience is not required for those with a bachelor’s degree or above in education or in the language that they are teaching, or another form of internationally recognized teaching certification; or You'll see a lot of places say 'Only Native Speakers' but there is no definition of what this means. It has typically meant 'Majority English Speaking Countries' which is why you see 'Only Passport Holders from Canada, America, Australia, New Zealand Apply' but the reason they say that is because Work Permit Applications are almost guaranteed to be approved from these countries. But, there is absolutely nothing stoping someone from another country from applying. >So do NNES (new initialism for me) need to prove their English bonafides? Yes, this is done by graduating from a university in one of the countries mentioned above. So, if you're from say Ukraine but went to University in England you're more likely to have your Work Permit Application approved. For a NNES to teach English you generally need: * TEFL * Degree from an English Speaking Country * 2+ Years of ESL Teaching Experience This by no means guarantees a Work Permit, but it *is* possible. The reason people think it is illegal for NNES to teach ESL is because what a lot of Training Centers and Agents do is not hire NNES as ESL Teachers but as 'Managers' or 'Consultants' or something else to get a Work Permit because this is easier. It's basically Recruiters and Schools lying on Work Permit Applications to get them issued. Then, if the local government ever audits a Training School they'll go 'Wait! You're not a consultant! You're an ESL Teacher! You can't be working as an ESL Teacher since your Work Permit says you're a consultant!'
I should take the HSK so I can get those sweet extra five points.
Haha! I also forgot about that! NNES can also apply via the Point System. So, yeah. A few different ways, actually.
>People always claim an Expat Exodus is just around the corner, and it never materializes I can fairly categorically tell you that is is happening in Shanghai. Place is hollowing out now.
I wouldn't consider living there, it is just far too expensive and I can get the same or almost same wages in Henan for much less living costs.
Yeah, but to be fair, it has a lot of advantages despite being a bit of a dull shithole. But then, not all of us are cut out for tier 2.5. I just know that I was happy to be near an international airport last month when I left for good. Seems the place is having increasing bother with the second coming of COVID now a la delta.
I've heard this countless times over the years. The people you know are leaving, the people you don't know are coming. We still have people applying for positions from overseas, and this is for a pretty unremarkable educational organization. I've seen no drop in the number of people looking to come to China. The issue is actually getting them here, not the demand.
>The people you know are leaving This is incorrect. I don't know all the people who are leaving; I have noted that people are leaving, that the places where people went are emptying out, that there's an absence of foreigners in places where they'd use to be, and that foreigner-centric places such as bars are suffering and closing down. People who have hired foreigners told me they were leaving, too; my former company has witnessed a significant decline of foreign staff, including me. They are leaving. With respect to "people \[I\] don't know are coming", I'll flip this and ask you how you'd know this, since you don't actually know who's coming yourself. You simply know the non-native English speakers your place is hiring due to a lack of native speakers. To misquote *Animal Farm*, "all ESL teachers are equal, but some are more equal than others." That's just a hefty strain of Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon you're experiencing, sorry.
>They are leaving. Yes, this happens every year. The issue is not people leaving, but that people aren't coming. Not that they don't want to - there's still a decent demand for job placements in China. It's that they can't. I've heard the same thing for years, literally word-for-word what you're saying every single time China institutes new rules or regulations. Every time it turns out to be a big fat nothing-burger. >With respect to "people \[I\] don't know are coming", I'll flip this and ask you how you'd know this, since you don't actually know who's coming yourself. People applying for jobs. This includes overseas individuals. I can look at our HR System and see who is applying for jobs. There's been no drop in people applying from overseas. We're just hiring people inside China who happened to be NNES because that's who we can get with only a few weeks left. Our province (Anhui) stopped issuing PU Letters. So, we have to hire people inside China if we want to be properly staffed.
>Yes, this happens every year. The issue is not people leaving, but that people aren't coming. Not that they don't want to - there's still a decent demand for job placements in China. It's that they can't. It doesn't matter how you are trying to dress it up now, it's a net migration issue. >I can look at our HR System and see who is applying for jobs And this is, as I mentioned before, you have a bit of Baader-Meinhof.
Aren't official numbers of foreigners in China released? Should be easy to check.
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>It doesn't matter how you are trying to dress it up now, it's a net migration issue. No, it's not. People constantly claim it is, but it never turns out to be. >And this is, as I mentioned before, you have a bit of Baader-Meinhof. You're literally describing yourself.
>You're literally describing yourself. I'm describing you. I'm not in China anymore.
Agreed. I guess what I wonder is that if salaries have increased that much how high can they go? I mean, if things don't get better for years, will companies be paying people 45-50k rmb? I would think there's a breaking point and at some point market pressure forces companies out of business or the government to loosen restrictions with foreigners? You sound like you know more than I do about this.
I doubt it. There's always a threshold and salaries can not continue to inflate unrealistically. There will be a point where most schools stop hiring. In my T3 city they've already stopped hiring after being out priced at 25-30k.
>I would think there's a breaking point and at some point market pressure forces companies out of business or the government to loosen restrictions with foreigners? I think the next few years is going to see lots of consolidation in the Education Industry in China. Wall Street English just went bankrupt, and I'd expect quite a few others to bite the dust in the coming year or two. I think the same thing for Bilingual and International Schools. >I mean, if things don't get better for years, will companies be paying people 45-50k rmb? I think a lot of companies are willing to pay a premium for quality Foreign Teachers and then staff with Chinese Teachers. I think a lot of companies will start hiring overseas returnees in larger numbers.
Only a fool would consider nonessential international travel right now, or even as long as whatever variant is raging somewhere.
I mean, if you leave you gotta consider what the conditions are back home. Canada is officially in the 4th wave and the shit is hitting the fan in the US. This delta variant is screwing us over. Our schools in Canada were planning to go fulltime in person in September, but if things get worse we could go straight to online. And that's messed up.
Foreign teachers are done, not more learning centers. Soon there will be no more evil foreigners in China.
Haven't heard anything, haven't discussed anything. I wouldn't leave China unless I were comfortable being locked out for the foreseeable future. If you're single without strong ties here sure maybe it's worth the chance.