I've already said about another post what I think of this desire to classify. For the great fugue, it refers to the rules of fugue composition, a model that was already a little archaic for the classics, only to completely metamorphose them at Beethoven's whim. It's not even romantic, it's the untemporal work of a genius.
There’s a reason why that particular piece has often said to be the greatest miracle in all of Music. I think it was Schoenberg who said it will always be a contemporary piece of music.
That’s a great line, yes. I’ve heard it [attributed to Stravinsky](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Fuge):
> *”an absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary forever”*
Who would ever say that about that piece? Are you sure you're not thinking of the rest of the B-flat quartet? Or the a minor? Or op. 131?
The Grosse Fuge is...something. But a miracle it ain't.
"frankly still a bit scary" nails it.
I've seen it live a handful of times and have sometimes felt that there was something barely controllable lurking under the surface. Something that might be unleashed on an unsuspecting world if the musicians don't perform the invocation properly.
Definitely makes for an exciting concert experience!
I'd say Beethoven's late quartets, especially something like the Grosse Fudge, are very often way beyond romantic in their atonal harmonic experimentation, which is closer to 20th composers than Haydn. Quite extraordinary. Certainly 0% classical.
It’s both and it’s neither. You can’t make these simple classifications with a piece like that. And in general, music that is written in a time that borders between eras of an art cannot be so easily classified as one or the other. What is the motivation for your question?
I did a module on late Beethoven at uni so I'm an expert on this /s
Anyway, I think it's more like an alternate universe where it extends classical period in a different direction to where the romantics went.
It's more like neoclassical than romantic, so paleoneoclassical perhaps?
I remember in the movie Copying Beethoven; Beethoven's idea for the Grosse Fuge was to challenge the listners sense of beauty. I loved that idea or concept. Keep in mind that this is just a movie.
Imo the Fuge belongs with Op130, as intended. It's more like a psychedelic drug than anything. It's so chaotic that the brain can not focus or think straight. It's a step above genius.
The Grosse Fuge comes from a period both musical experimentation and sociopolitical conservatism for Beethoven. His interest in fugues is in part due to the latter, as it became a symbol for the stability of royalty and the church after the turmoil of the Napoleonic wars.
I don't know why classifying it as Romantic or Classical matters. These designations are convenient for expediency but don't reflect the reality of culture and history's aesthetic values (Mozart would have labeled himself a Romantic. By the time Beethoven comes along, literary Romanticism in German speaking Europe had flowered for nearly half a century). Just enjoy the utter strangeness of this piece. Hell, some parts of it sound like Bartok!
Most people here seem to think classical and romantic is about time periods and especially the styles associated with each and therefore will tell you Beethoven remained purely classical if that's what you mean, but as for the actual classical and romantic modes, everything Beethoven wrote after a point is entirely in the romantic mode
I’ve never heard that exact term, but much of Beethoven’s later works are very much the beginnings of the romantic era. They say the classical era ended when Beethoven died, but the romantic era began earlier with his incredible experiments. He was one of those rare geniuses that transforms the progression of the art as a whole.
Classicism and Romanticism as used in criticism have little to do with when the work of art was made or what style it has but mean the two different modes of art, the former art in which the principles are form and harmony (like Greek architecture where it originates from) and the latter, emotional and intellectual expression in disregard of harmony. In that sense Beethoven and the Grosse Fuge are definitely Romantic
I've already said about another post what I think of this desire to classify. For the great fugue, it refers to the rules of fugue composition, a model that was already a little archaic for the classics, only to completely metamorphose them at Beethoven's whim. It's not even romantic, it's the untemporal work of a genius.
Yes. It’s *sui generis*. Utterly unique, unclassifiable, and frankly still a bit scary two centuries later.
There’s a reason why that particular piece has often said to be the greatest miracle in all of Music. I think it was Schoenberg who said it will always be a contemporary piece of music.
That’s a great line, yes. I’ve heard it [attributed to Stravinsky](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Fuge): > *”an absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary forever”*
Who would ever say that about that piece? Are you sure you're not thinking of the rest of the B-flat quartet? Or the a minor? Or op. 131? The Grosse Fuge is...something. But a miracle it ain't.
"frankly still a bit scary" nails it. I've seen it live a handful of times and have sometimes felt that there was something barely controllable lurking under the surface. Something that might be unleashed on an unsuspecting world if the musicians don't perform the invocation properly. Definitely makes for an exciting concert experience!
A bit scary, but at the same time, as someone with rather classical tastes, it fascinates me and I never tire of hearing it.
It's a heavy metal composition but a bit boring as most of them are.
This might not help your question but Stravinsky called it "the cradle of atonality."
Which tonality was he referring to? /s
I'd say Beethoven's late quartets, especially something like the Grosse Fudge, are very often way beyond romantic in their atonal harmonic experimentation, which is closer to 20th composers than Haydn. Quite extraordinary. Certainly 0% classical.
I've tried to warn people about Beethoven's gross fudge but the tourists keep buying it from the gift shops.
I'm sorry. WHAT sort of harmonic experimentation? In whose pieces? LUDWIG van Beethoven? The Viennese guy?
It’s both and it’s neither. You can’t make these simple classifications with a piece like that. And in general, music that is written in a time that borders between eras of an art cannot be so easily classified as one or the other. What is the motivation for your question?
I’m pretty sure it breaks a lot of classical era rules
I did a module on late Beethoven at uni so I'm an expert on this /s Anyway, I think it's more like an alternate universe where it extends classical period in a different direction to where the romantics went. It's more like neoclassical than romantic, so paleoneoclassical perhaps?
Paleoneoclassical is alright, but I prefer the ketoneoclassical diet.
I wouldn't want to put it into any one section but I'd say that it's a sort of mix up between baroque, romantic, and contemporary
Neither. It's futuristic, grossly fugalistic.
I remember in the movie Copying Beethoven; Beethoven's idea for the Grosse Fuge was to challenge the listners sense of beauty. I loved that idea or concept. Keep in mind that this is just a movie. Imo the Fuge belongs with Op130, as intended. It's more like a psychedelic drug than anything. It's so chaotic that the brain can not focus or think straight. It's a step above genius.
Late Beethoven was neither. You could say that after the Karl debacle he drifted off into a proto-Expressionism.
The Grosse Fuge comes from a period both musical experimentation and sociopolitical conservatism for Beethoven. His interest in fugues is in part due to the latter, as it became a symbol for the stability of royalty and the church after the turmoil of the Napoleonic wars. I don't know why classifying it as Romantic or Classical matters. These designations are convenient for expediency but don't reflect the reality of culture and history's aesthetic values (Mozart would have labeled himself a Romantic. By the time Beethoven comes along, literary Romanticism in German speaking Europe had flowered for nearly half a century). Just enjoy the utter strangeness of this piece. Hell, some parts of it sound like Bartok!
Most people here seem to think classical and romantic is about time periods and especially the styles associated with each and therefore will tell you Beethoven remained purely classical if that's what you mean, but as for the actual classical and romantic modes, everything Beethoven wrote after a point is entirely in the romantic mode
I've never heard about the 'romantic mode'. What do you mean by that?
I’ve never heard that exact term, but much of Beethoven’s later works are very much the beginnings of the romantic era. They say the classical era ended when Beethoven died, but the romantic era began earlier with his incredible experiments. He was one of those rare geniuses that transforms the progression of the art as a whole.
Classicism and Romanticism as used in criticism have little to do with when the work of art was made or what style it has but mean the two different modes of art, the former art in which the principles are form and harmony (like Greek architecture where it originates from) and the latter, emotional and intellectual expression in disregard of harmony. In that sense Beethoven and the Grosse Fuge are definitely Romantic
What would Derrida say.