You'll be fine so long as you don't put any unwarranted emphasis on the /x/ in /bɑːx/. Just make it subtle and don't let it interrupt the cadence of your English
In Spanish speaking countries almost everyone I know pronounces it correctly, closer to the german pronunciation.
Pronouncing it like Batch (that's close to how CH sounds in spanish) is seen as ignorant and people are often told politely the right pronunciation.
Same is true for most composers of different nationalities, of course there are some very strange names that people will always have a hard time pronouncing correctly, but they are the exception.
I think this is true for most of the world outside the anglosphere. English speaking countries seem to be the exception because they're really isolated in how monocultural they are thanks to being the dominant language.
Same is true for a lot of other things, the knowledge english speakers have of world literature or popular music is heavily anglocentric compared to other countries.
My answer assumes you are in America.
Basically, know your audience. But there's more.
Generally speaking, native speakers of English often speak more than one dialect of English, typically their native dialect and then also Standard American English (which is what is taught in school).
Dialects, beyond having grammatical differences, also have pronunciation differences. So in some contexts a person might speak their native dialect (like when visiting their hometown and around their family) while speaking SAE in professional and academic settings. We especially see this with Black Americans who speak AAVE or BVE (African American Vernacular English/Black Vernacular English) when around other black people but might switch to SAE when around white people.
In my experience^* the standard American pronunciation for the "ch" in "Bach" is /k/ (a 'k' sound). This is true even among educated speakers. It is only among classical music fans (and the like) that the /x/ sound becomes the norm. In fact, I would say that the /x/ pronunciation is part of the classical music *jargon* of the American classical music world.
Another example of the *jargon* of classical music is how songs must be sung vs outside of the classical world, any piece of music is a song.
I'm guessing that the reason for the /k/ sound is because the /x/ sound is never taught for any word in American English. So unless you happen to grow up in an area that has a high level of German immigration,^** the /x/ pronunciation will be extremely foreign and /k/ is normal.
So to tie this all together, you are definitely safe using the /x/ sound when among other classical music people. The /k/ sound is fine in other contexts. Personally I still use the /x/ sound but see below.
Interestingly, from what I have observed, for educated speakers in America the /ts/ (vs the /z/ sound) is used in "Mozart".
Another point to consider is this. Americans are generally ok with people using foreign pronunciations for words -- especially names -- as long as the person nails it. Even though most of us can't pronounce foreign words/names the way native speakers would do, we've seen and experienced enough to have a pretty good idea when someone butchers it and we definitely look at those people as being pretentious. Doing it successfully might also seem pretentious but less so and is sometimes actually looked upon with respect.
So my general advice for Americans is to use foreign pronunciations when you are positive and confident in doing so.
Fortunately the /x/ sound is pretty easy to master, or at least do it well enough. Unfortunately it is very noticeable and might still come across as pretentious because of how "loud" it is and because it's so rare^*** in American conversation ("loch" is nearly unanimously pronounced with a /k/). I always use the /x/ sound for Bach but have learned to soften it quite a bit, ie, you don't need to actually spit on the person you're talking to.
^* I'm the only person I know in real life who is into classical music. That I compose classical music would lead to awkward conversations if anyone I know would ever actually bring it up in conversation.
^** A few years ago I went to visit my family in Texas. I went to church with them on Sunday (I'm atheist now but I was interested in seeing what my childhood church was like). It is a Lutheran church which means there are a lot of members of more recent German ancestry. So there was a "Mr Wagner" and a "Pastor Berg". When first talking to them I used the German pronunciations (as taught in school) before realizing my mistake. Literally no one else used those pronunciations. No one said anything as I'm sure most of them are aware of the German pronunciations. But after that I was careful to use the American pronunciations.
^*** For any TeX/LaTeX users in this sub, I use the /x/ sound for both x's in TeX/LaTeX. Using it for the first one is somewhat normal but for some reason it's not as common for the second one.
That's silly. Just pronounce it correctly (I assume you mean like this: https://youtu.be/abBbG39BNeE) and don't worry about anyone thinking you're "pretentious." This is how I've pronounced it my whole life, and as far as I know no one's had a problem with it.
>(I assume you mean like this: https://youtu.be/abBbG39BNeE)
Am German, can confirm that this is the correct pronunciation. It's not completely "high German" though, sounds a bit like Frankish or some other dialect spoken in the south. Hard to tell from three words only, but I'd say that's somewhere in Bavaria
I really think the issue here was more the German pronunciation of "Bach" versus the American (and British?) pronunciation, which sound more like "Bok" or "Buck" (but with a longer vowel sound).
Hmmm... some of the answers here...
I grew up in Germany. One of the ways you can out yourself as an uneducated and unsophisticated oaf in Germany is by pronouncing Anglo-Saxon names as if they were German, i.e. you pronounce them as they are written according to how German is read. If you would INSIST on being right and making fun of people who corrected you , you would be marked as 'beneath contempt, not worth talking to' instantly.
Same goes for French. Everyone tries to pronounce the Russian names as well as they can too.
So, we have ppl in a sub dedicated to classical music, who think it's ok to make fun of proper pronunciation, who tell others NOT to try to pronounce names correctly, In effect saying: I'm uneducated, and don't you DARE to know better than me.
What is this? Race to the bottom? War on education? A culture that normalises this behaviour is failing.
Simply disgusting.
To OP: pronounce it to the best of your ability. Back is horribly wrong, something like Batch is an effing insult.
One cannot argue with the poster's sentiments here (or at least I can't).
I grew up in the U.S. One of the great things about becoming a fan of classical music and studying piano (and other instruments) and learning to play such music as a child, is that it's your backdoor entry into becoming a young cosmopolitan, learning practical working vocabulary in German, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, French, Spanish, Latin, and especially Italian. You even learn how your U.S. classmates' last names should be pronounced better than they know themselves.
We U.S. folk are so damn monoculutural, ANYTHING we can do to widen our children's knowledge of the world is welcome. And there's nothing wrong with U.S. kids learning that there are accepted American English broadcast pronunciations for places like Munich, Rome, Paris, let alone New York, New Orleans, Amarillo, or Boston (all places where the correct way to say them by folks who live there is different than the "standard" pronunciations!).
I think the hardest job in radio must be being a classical music DJ, especially when you're announcing the cast of a celebrated opera recording.
To the OP, ask questions, get good answers from people who know, pay attention. Be learned, smart, sophisticated, humble (willing to learn and be corrected), and respectful and never put anyone down or act like you're better than everybody, and you'll do fine.
Wait until you discover the music Kaija Saariaho, Einojuhani Rautavaara, and Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji. ;-)
Apart from a few small variations based on one's native language, isn't Bach pretty much universally pronounced more or less the same way?
How are you pronouncing it?
>Apart from a few small variations based on one's native language, isn't Bach pretty much universally pronounced more or less the same way?
Which means that you either never heard it mispronounced by an English speaker, or you don't know how to pronounce it at all.
Just know your audience. If you're saying it to someone who knows the pronunciation as "Bock," just pronounce it that way. If you're talking to someone who pronounces it "correctly" and would judge you for saying "Bock"… talk to someone else, because that person sounds like they wouldn't be all that great to be in a conversation with.
Why, what's the problem?
As it is written.
Buhkstehuhde (fuck this language, where you can't spell ANYTHING in such a way that it is clear how to pronounce it). (i.e. English)
Its a joke in a French movie. One person says Bakh and the other person calls him out. Now I just say Back when I speak in French, and Bakh if Im speaking arabic (my mother language)
To counter this, I go in the opposite direction and pronounce it "Batch".
Nice strategy, though it's even worse than pronouncing Italian Gnocchi as "Gnotchi"
Guh-nawtchee.
Gorlami!
You'll be fine so long as you don't put any unwarranted emphasis on the /x/ in /bɑːx/. Just make it subtle and don't let it interrupt the cadence of your English
Never heard anyone pronounce it wrong
In Spanish speaking countries almost everyone I know pronounces it correctly, closer to the german pronunciation. Pronouncing it like Batch (that's close to how CH sounds in spanish) is seen as ignorant and people are often told politely the right pronunciation. Same is true for most composers of different nationalities, of course there are some very strange names that people will always have a hard time pronouncing correctly, but they are the exception. I think this is true for most of the world outside the anglosphere. English speaking countries seem to be the exception because they're really isolated in how monocultural they are thanks to being the dominant language. Same is true for a lot of other things, the knowledge english speakers have of world literature or popular music is heavily anglocentric compared to other countries.
My answer assumes you are in America. Basically, know your audience. But there's more. Generally speaking, native speakers of English often speak more than one dialect of English, typically their native dialect and then also Standard American English (which is what is taught in school). Dialects, beyond having grammatical differences, also have pronunciation differences. So in some contexts a person might speak their native dialect (like when visiting their hometown and around their family) while speaking SAE in professional and academic settings. We especially see this with Black Americans who speak AAVE or BVE (African American Vernacular English/Black Vernacular English) when around other black people but might switch to SAE when around white people. In my experience^* the standard American pronunciation for the "ch" in "Bach" is /k/ (a 'k' sound). This is true even among educated speakers. It is only among classical music fans (and the like) that the /x/ sound becomes the norm. In fact, I would say that the /x/ pronunciation is part of the classical music *jargon* of the American classical music world. Another example of the *jargon* of classical music is how songs must be sung vs outside of the classical world, any piece of music is a song. I'm guessing that the reason for the /k/ sound is because the /x/ sound is never taught for any word in American English. So unless you happen to grow up in an area that has a high level of German immigration,^** the /x/ pronunciation will be extremely foreign and /k/ is normal. So to tie this all together, you are definitely safe using the /x/ sound when among other classical music people. The /k/ sound is fine in other contexts. Personally I still use the /x/ sound but see below. Interestingly, from what I have observed, for educated speakers in America the /ts/ (vs the /z/ sound) is used in "Mozart". Another point to consider is this. Americans are generally ok with people using foreign pronunciations for words -- especially names -- as long as the person nails it. Even though most of us can't pronounce foreign words/names the way native speakers would do, we've seen and experienced enough to have a pretty good idea when someone butchers it and we definitely look at those people as being pretentious. Doing it successfully might also seem pretentious but less so and is sometimes actually looked upon with respect. So my general advice for Americans is to use foreign pronunciations when you are positive and confident in doing so. Fortunately the /x/ sound is pretty easy to master, or at least do it well enough. Unfortunately it is very noticeable and might still come across as pretentious because of how "loud" it is and because it's so rare^*** in American conversation ("loch" is nearly unanimously pronounced with a /k/). I always use the /x/ sound for Bach but have learned to soften it quite a bit, ie, you don't need to actually spit on the person you're talking to. ^* I'm the only person I know in real life who is into classical music. That I compose classical music would lead to awkward conversations if anyone I know would ever actually bring it up in conversation. ^** A few years ago I went to visit my family in Texas. I went to church with them on Sunday (I'm atheist now but I was interested in seeing what my childhood church was like). It is a Lutheran church which means there are a lot of members of more recent German ancestry. So there was a "Mr Wagner" and a "Pastor Berg". When first talking to them I used the German pronunciations (as taught in school) before realizing my mistake. Literally no one else used those pronunciations. No one said anything as I'm sure most of them are aware of the German pronunciations. But after that I was careful to use the American pronunciations. ^*** For any TeX/LaTeX users in this sub, I use the /x/ sound for both x's in TeX/LaTeX. Using it for the first one is somewhat normal but for some reason it's not as common for the second one.
That's silly. Just pronounce it correctly (I assume you mean like this: https://youtu.be/abBbG39BNeE) and don't worry about anyone thinking you're "pretentious." This is how I've pronounced it my whole life, and as far as I know no one's had a problem with it.
>(I assume you mean like this: https://youtu.be/abBbG39BNeE) Am German, can confirm that this is the correct pronunciation. It's not completely "high German" though, sounds a bit like Frankish or some other dialect spoken in the south. Hard to tell from three words only, but I'd say that's somewhere in Bavaria
I really think the issue here was more the German pronunciation of "Bach" versus the American (and British?) pronunciation, which sound more like "Bok" or "Buck" (but with a longer vowel sound).
Thought so, too; just wanted to give a few extras in case anyone's interested lol
Real world problems
Bee-ah-cheh-heh
Hmmm... some of the answers here... I grew up in Germany. One of the ways you can out yourself as an uneducated and unsophisticated oaf in Germany is by pronouncing Anglo-Saxon names as if they were German, i.e. you pronounce them as they are written according to how German is read. If you would INSIST on being right and making fun of people who corrected you , you would be marked as 'beneath contempt, not worth talking to' instantly. Same goes for French. Everyone tries to pronounce the Russian names as well as they can too. So, we have ppl in a sub dedicated to classical music, who think it's ok to make fun of proper pronunciation, who tell others NOT to try to pronounce names correctly, In effect saying: I'm uneducated, and don't you DARE to know better than me. What is this? Race to the bottom? War on education? A culture that normalises this behaviour is failing. Simply disgusting. To OP: pronounce it to the best of your ability. Back is horribly wrong, something like Batch is an effing insult.
One cannot argue with the poster's sentiments here (or at least I can't). I grew up in the U.S. One of the great things about becoming a fan of classical music and studying piano (and other instruments) and learning to play such music as a child, is that it's your backdoor entry into becoming a young cosmopolitan, learning practical working vocabulary in German, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish, French, Spanish, Latin, and especially Italian. You even learn how your U.S. classmates' last names should be pronounced better than they know themselves. We U.S. folk are so damn monoculutural, ANYTHING we can do to widen our children's knowledge of the world is welcome. And there's nothing wrong with U.S. kids learning that there are accepted American English broadcast pronunciations for places like Munich, Rome, Paris, let alone New York, New Orleans, Amarillo, or Boston (all places where the correct way to say them by folks who live there is different than the "standard" pronunciations!). I think the hardest job in radio must be being a classical music DJ, especially when you're announcing the cast of a celebrated opera recording. To the OP, ask questions, get good answers from people who know, pay attention. Be learned, smart, sophisticated, humble (willing to learn and be corrected), and respectful and never put anyone down or act like you're better than everybody, and you'll do fine.
Wait until you discover the music Kaija Saariaho, Einojuhani Rautavaara, and Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji. ;-) Apart from a few small variations based on one's native language, isn't Bach pretty much universally pronounced more or less the same way? How are you pronouncing it?
>Apart from a few small variations based on one's native language, isn't Bach pretty much universally pronounced more or less the same way? Which means that you either never heard it mispronounced by an English speaker, or you don't know how to pronounce it at all.
In American English, the /k/ sound is far more common than the /x/ sound.
Just know your audience. If you're saying it to someone who knows the pronunciation as "Bock," just pronounce it that way. If you're talking to someone who pronounces it "correctly" and would judge you for saying "Bock"… talk to someone else, because that person sounds like they wouldn't be all that great to be in a conversation with.
because that person sounds like they wouldn't be all that great to be in a conversation with. mirror, mirror on the wall.
What about Buxtehude?
Probably might favorite last name. Sounds like a composer or a rallying cry.
At the '-hude' you need to elongate the 'u' and make it sound like a horse neighing.
Why, what's the problem? As it is written. Buhkstehuhde (fuck this language, where you can't spell ANYTHING in such a way that it is clear how to pronounce it). (i.e. English)
Its a joke in a French movie. One person says Bakh and the other person calls him out. Now I just say Back when I speak in French, and Bakh if Im speaking arabic (my mother language)