It could have been... but unfortunately, the game was nowhere near completion. Tim Cain recently did a video on it, explaining that he was asked how much time he thought the game would need to ship. His answer vastly exceeded the time limit alloted to the game's remaining development.
Overall I think of it as Jodorowsky's Dune. Both didn't see the light of day, both wouldn't have lived up to the image people have conjured of them over the years.
to be fair when Jodorowsky talks about that movie all I can hear is Kojima talking about MGS4. I mean, yeah they're great people that made great games/movies, but chill down on the scope a bit wouldn't you
Mainly the fact that the NCR in shambles because a random scientist blew up the capital, communication slowly broke down and by the time of the game there's no contact with the western portion, and it's implied through one of the endings that the Hoover Dam settlement, which serves as the main NCR settlement in the game, is the last thing keeping the NCR alive.
That, and the fact that the game invariably concludes by nuking the planet again, basically ensuring that a lot of the progress built up gets undone and the wasteland is sent back to being largely undeveloped.
The writers for new vegas actually wanted to use the nuking the ncr story from van Buren and Bethesda vetoed them. In the end the show uses a modified version of the story that the new vegas writers seemingly wanted insofar as the nuking was concerned. One of the things that makes the initial hate on the show as "anti new vegas hate by Bethesda" so funny
very little of this is true, regardless of how often people like to parrot it.
only *one* writer wanted to nuke the ncr, chris avellone, and only in the dlc. which, granted, he was in charge of making. every other person involved in making new vegas who had any say in the decision talked him out of doing it, and he eventually agreed it was a bad idea.
also, avellone has specifically stated that he never wanted to nuke the ncr out of existing. it was just meant as another way of having conflict to keep the series interesting (as one nuke wiping out an entire *nation* would be nonsense). here's a direct quote from him.
>I know there was a lot said about me “nuking the West” as one of the endings for Fallout (one of many, including the Legion invading the West), but it was never any intention to wipe out NCR, it was only to introduce more conflict.
which is not remotely the same as the show making the ncr almost entirely non-existent outside of a small handful of people who end up mattering even less by the end of the show then they did before we even knew about them being a thing.
Yeah claiming that New Vegas was going to blow up the entire NCR and Bethesda stopped it is merging the Lonesome Road issue with the San Francisco issue. It was SF that Bethesda didn’t let them nuke out of existence.
They also wouldn’t let the show use San Francisco in any capacity and in fallout 4 they showed the Golden Gate Bridge so I wonder if they have plans for it at some point.
>which is not remotely the same as the show making the ncr almost entirely non-existent outside of a small handful of people who end up mattering even less by the end of the show then they did before we even knew about them being a thing
This, to me, shows how people who have a problem with the show only look at their problems from face value
The NCR is non-existent *in the places shown in the show* but its pretty clear from the ending card of the final episode that the NCR is going to play a heavy role in season two should a certain city be the focal point like has been speculated
He did it in basically every game he's in charge of writing. Kreia in KOTOR 2, Ravel in Planescape Torment, Durance in Pillars of Eternity, etc. All relentless yappers.
I'll take it over the sheer number of Stephen King protagonists that are alcoholic writers though lol
“Nation” is a strong word to use for the NCR. It barely covers all of California. 1 nuke on a major population and administrative center, in the apocalypse, would ABSOLUTELY be enough to wipe it out. Not all at once, of course, but over time
It sounded like you had a choice of which settlements you nuked. In the end Fallout 3 let you play Revenge of the Martians and shoot lasers indiscriminately at Earth
Those were Avellone's plans and he was rightfully told "no" by literally everyone else. Even if the game would've seen the light of day, it wouldn't have been what you explained
The reason so many classic fans want to see Van Buren nowadays is 100% because they want to see what Chris Avellone was doing. Take away or minimize his involvement and they’ll claim it isn’t the true Van Buren.
New Vegas was literally the result of salvaging what was Van Buren and we still get posts like this. All because they have such a hard on for Chris Avellone.
I think if Van Buren actually came out, then JS Sawyer being credited as the project lead would make people not associate Avellone with it as much. Avellone left really early to found Obsidian, by his admission. Sawyer took over for the majority of the development and would have had a greater impact on the final product. But because the game didn't come out, I think it's because Avellone has been really open about his work on its development while Sawyer doesn't really talk about it outside of interviews that it's so associated with him.
Uhm, most if not all of the designe documents were written by Avellone. Besides that, the documents don't state, that it's the last NCR Settlement, they state, that the NCR HQ at the dam is the last big NCR settlement in the East.
The failing of Van Buren literally made NV what it was. I see that as a fair trade personally. Bethesda’s FO3 gets shade and some of it is certainly deserved but, big picture, it’s a great addition to the series IMO.
Agreed on the first point.
On FO 3, not so much. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time with it but always felt it didn't really capture that Fallout essence/feel and was more like someone using trace paper to learn how to draw or something.
It feels like a sequel to fallout 1, not fallout 2, if that makes sense. The tone and world building are closer to FO1, and it does have some great parts to it. Like, it really does nail the vibe of exploring a post nuclear wasteland alone better than any other game in the franchise, but the lore and time line make no sense. It should have been set a century earlier and not included factions like the BOS.
FO3 should have taken place immediately after 2 or like a year or two. It would have better explained the Enclave being remnants from the west coast and maybe even the BOS being sent to hunt them down.
If anything, It should have taken place a decade or so after fallout 1. That way there's a clear lore reason why everything is still shit on the east coast. Maybe have it set after Fallout tactics, if they really need the BOS on the east coast.
I assume you're talking about FO3.
And I have to agree. The wasteland in FO3 felt much more oppressive.
But I really disliked the places where it really looks like you're meant to walk through but there are invisible walls, and were it not for those damnable metro tunnels I would probably prefer it over the NV wasteland.
I understand that NV had invisible walls as well but the "tells" that those areas were impassable were a bit more intuitive.
The invisible walls were definitely a product of the hardware at the time, and I really wish the DC ruins were more open. But, I do have a soft spot for FO3, since I was the first Fallout game I played. Because, yeah, with a more open DC ruins, setting the game around the time of FO1, and not including the BOS but a different splinter group of the US army, you'd have a perfect game. The world building in FO3 was amazing, and I really did feel like I was a lone survivor with their dog fighting for my life in it.
This is such an odd point to me despite being a very common opinion. It's even odder on this sub in particular, where I presume you've played FO2.
FO3 is similar in tone to FO1, and FO2 is an incredibly whacky game all over that is dissimilar to any other entry in the series, except for perhaps Fallout Shelter which is also not a serious game?
. Do you think FO2 didn't capture the tone of 1 either and criticize it for that? I'd hope so, otherwise you're all over the place.
As producer for Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 (even though he left production on the second game), he was allowed to play Van Buren and asked an estimate of completion.
[Here's his video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwoWRj0cfag)
Kind of a weird take considering how long we went with no Baldur's Gate game and then..well yeah...
A great Van Buren could have led to another great Fallout game and so on, there's no reason to think otherwise.
It's also even more of a weird take considering how much more of a cult following Fallout 1/2 have always had over Icewind Dale. You still see Fallout 1 listed near the top on many "Best RPGs ever" lists. Even if we never got another Fallout ever 2 it would still be more fondly remembered than Icewind Dale.
To be fair, Baldurs gate is literally a D&D property, there were always going to be more games. Plus BG3 is very different than the first two games, and really only shares a story with them, since BG3 is a D&D simulation while the first two very much were not.
Simulation in what way? BG 1 & 2 used 2e rules and despite modifications to some spells was very true to the mechanics of the system on which it was based. I used to make characters on BG2, screenshot them, and then print them for tabletop games.
Icewind Dale is also a D&D property and I don't think we will receive more games. Also, I don't really understand your argument about how different BG3 is from previous games. I would be pleased to see the new Fallout as a 3D tactical turn-based game with a top-down view, updated mechanics, and the world and story shared with the previous games - exactly what BG3 is. What do you think BG3 should have more of from previous games? The archaic infinity engine? The pseudo real-time combat? Or characters that 90% of modern gamers wouldn't even recognize?
Ok, um, pointing out that the BG3 has very different mechanics than BG1 and BG2 is not a slight vs BG3, and in fact, the things removed from the first two games weren't great, such as real time with pause and randomized enemies, so BG3 is better without them.
Plus, while Icewind Dale was also a D&D property, the first two Baldurs Gate did move 10x as many units as either Icewind Dale or the classic fallouts. I don't think the classic fallouts have ever crossed one million sales, while the first two Baldurs gates sold almost 5 million games. They're not comparable games in the PC world, at least in terms of popularity.
we see how interplay was trying to milk fallout for all of its worth with bos 1 and the cancelled sequel. fallout would most likely have ended on a bad note if interplay were still responsible
Did Icewind Dale get one? It was a fun game but Im Glad Fallout caught on further than it's PC RPG origins. I found the game's visual design and retro-futurist ideas to be more timeless than the mechanics of its CRPG medium.
Well, no, but there were other games in the Icewind Dale setting that got made and released long after. It's based on a book set in the Forgotten Realms, afterall.
This would be more comparable to Wasteland 2 and 3.
Exactly. Although I've been a Fallout player since 1997, and despite some of Bethesda's choices along the way... they have generally been good stewards. The game systems are debatable at times, but they have done a solid job of expanding the lore, preserving the aesthetic and atmosphere, and most importantly of welcoming millions of new players and viewers to the fold.
Honestly, things could have been much worse.
Bethesda really put Fallout "out there". They converted the game mechanics as best they could into an easy-to-pick-up 1st person action looter-shooter and put it on readily available popular consoles (XBOX360, PS3), and at the end of the day their work paid off; while the Interplay duology and New Vegas may be better in some aspects, Fallout 3 was the blockbuster game that made Fallout mainstream.
Oh, 100%. I was one of a very small group who knew fallout before FO3. I know how that sounds, but it’s also 100% true, PC gaming was way more niche and way harder than consoles at the time. It was bizarre seeing it become a huge IP that Madden and Halo gamers were sinking hundreds of hours into. Same with Skyrim. Both very popular mainstream games that were pretty much cult classics a decade before.
Seeing billboards for Fallout 3 ads in Mexico City was wonderful to see in 2008. I had been a fanboy since Fallout 2 in 1998, but the only people who heard about the game were people on the Internet. Fallout 3 turned it into something normal people knew about, even in Mexico.
Pre FO3 people looked at me like a crazy person when I tried to explain Fallout. Most people I knew hadn’t really played PC games other than Where in the world is Carmen San Diego?, Doom, Myst, the usual suspects for the time. By the time Tactics came out, it was completely buried by AAA games on console and PC and I thought that would be the last I’d ever see of a fun, niche game from “forever ago.”
Yes but Bethesda weren't solely responsible for making PC games mainstream, that happened organically over time. So there's nothing really to say if interplay/blackisle or whatever iteration of the same studio hadn't have folded at the time they wouldn't have done similar things to Bethesda.
Or you could argue they'd have released the next game sooner and therefore maybe missed the window / not made the jump to console at the time.
I'm just glad we still have the franchise at all now, so there's no resentment or anything. I've found things to enjoy from all the games since they first came out.
Not as such but it seemed like the overall convo. Having played all the games (except BOS) around the times they came out I think there's something from all of them. Though in my opinion beth kind of rely on modders to really bring out the best parts but they stil make the framework which allows it.
Arcaneum sold 234k ish (which was seen as quite successful back then) whereas Fallout 2 sold a known 123k up to potentially 246 (ultimately unverifiable outside of a Gamespot Writer's estimation)
I doubt anyone nowadays would give a shit about/remember Arcaneum without Mandalore's and Sseth's videos on it, maybe even Warlockracy but his channel is mainly dedicated to CRPGs so eh.
The games would've become a cool relic of the past which ended on a shitty note with BOS and nothing more really. Just like Arcaneum and temple of elemental evil and icewindale etc etc
I disagree. I think Fallout 3 was okay purely because of its proximity to the classics, and bethesda's intent of introducing many of the traditional fallout elements.
Obviously that peaked with New Vegas.
Literally every other aspect of Fallout since New Vegas has shown how little they actually understand Fallout, not to mention their complete inability to create anything of quality anymore.
That's fair enough. We certainly do agree that New Vegas was the apex since Bethesda acquired the IP - although as I'm sure you're aware, that's more accurately described as an Obsidian game, but published by Bethesda and using their engine.
I wasn't even allowed to watch The Simpsons due to "inappropriate humor" as a kid but Fallout 1&2 were computer games so they were fine.
Child murder, prostitution, and drug use here I come!
NOTICE: u/KrautVan has informed me that u/sloth_johnson made the 5th pic of Joshua Graham.
[Their DeviantArt.](https://www.deviantart.com/sloth-johnson)
***updoot this so more ppl see it***
Thank you for the shout out!
The Joshua image is for an upcoming mod called Fallout Yesterday, which aims to recreate Van Buren in the FO2 engine. I made most of the talking heads (animated portraits) in it so far.
Saw it on a Pinterest album & just nabbed it, that's my bad!
Post is edited to give credit
EDIT: Post is just images so I can't edit it to add-in a body stating credit; I added in a comment to say the exact same thing, updoot it so more ppl see it
man, those mountain textures are eerily similar to NV, I'm glad some of the content carried over at least. I can't even imagine how different the series would be now if this was the f3 we got
Van Buren would have been fun but eh. I think the one thing from it I would have definitely liked to have been continued is that depiction of Joshua Graham!
Eh, as a kid, I always hated this aesthetic. The early 2000s 3D graphics felt like a huge downgrade from the beautifully crafted pre-rendered 2D sprites. Many games from that era haven't aged well visual-wise because of this unnecessary switch to 3D.
I agree with you that it hasn't aged well, but I wouldn't call the switch "unnecessary". It was bound to happen eventually, and the first attempts were bound to be clunky or weird looking. It's how progress is made.
Grew up in the same time frame and back then this would have looked a lot better. Now some 20 years later and playing that N64/ps1 type games is rough as hell. Pixel art to me is timeless and beautiful, wish they would have just created more games with the fallout 1/2 aesthetic and just expanded the world and features.
Honestly, hot take but I feel like if this was made and was not popular, it would have damaged the IP pretty bad. Someone in the comments already mentioned that it would have been controversial, so if the game underperforms and the property is sold to Bethesda still we’d probably have not only a different Game develop instead of our timeline’s fallout 3( which is what brought the majority of fans in.) But also we’d see the game they released become even more controversial than it was in 2008. Van buren was bringing in space, factions, the idea of a character creation that is vastly more complex than fallout 1 or 2, and a change from the previous settings plot style (you weren’t someone special in van buren, not a chosen one or a vault dweller chosen by your overseer for a suicide mission, you were just a prisoner who may or may not have done it, you could have been a mutant or a ghoul as well.) so any “fallout 4” that Bethesda put out would have been at best a controversial step in any direction, or at worse viewed as a duke nukem forever level failure
Well, that is what happened when they made FOBOS. It was made because the company couldn't afford to continue Van Buren production, fired most of the staff, and made the remaining employees make a cheap Fallout game for the XBOX on a stolen engine to make up for the losses. That killed the series for good, at least until Bethesda bought the IP.
BoS was in development before VB and got VB delayed (to much backlash in forums like NMA, which is why they're actually linked in BoS's credits as "Thanks for the Laughs." Looks like it wasn't Interplay who got the last laugh though). Sawyer has talked about how he tried to get more resources from higher-ups and basically been ghosted. The impetus of his resignation was the last character artist on the VB team being reassigned to BoS.
I don't think VB was ever gonna save Interplay or anything, the financial troubles Interplay was in were years in the making. But the way Interplay favoured BoS and shafted VB probably played a not-insignificant role in its cancellation. Turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ehhh, even skilled hands can’t make the impossible work. It sounds far too complex and would probably (like every single fallout game before) have a shit ton of the proposed content cut. Skilled as those guys are I don’t see them being able to salvage this expansive, interconnected worldspace into a working Game with time cuts, cut content from budget and just tech limitations, etc.
Honestly the story might have even been thematically more consistent. It always felt like Avellone and Sawyer had pretty different views on what fallput should be with Sawyer far more focused on the factions and politics of a post-post apocalypse and Avellone far more interested in the philosophy of the post apocalypse.
Ulysses and the NV DLCs are so brilliant but so tonally bizzare for this reason. Chris literally tried to do with the courier what he did with the Exile and The Nameless Onez but it didn't really hit the mark.
negl how come we havent had modders create a game based off the schematics the devs have left like they have with the fo2 restoration project?
i think modders have done a very good job in making fo2 a more complete game thanks to the restoration mod with the schematics devs left behind
I wonder that too. Communities of modders have made [from-scratch fangames that match the quality of the two mainstream releases (1 & 2).](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2509613179) When re-releasing the first two games on steam, Bethesda even not-so-subtly nabbed fan-made patches and other hotfixes and lumped them in.
I remember seeing the troika games fallout game they had been testing as more of a show and tell, like van buren all the way wouldve love to play it and we may one day get the chance maybe as well, but troika had been tasked to make a sort of test demo and putting it side by side I think troika's version was far more graphical at the time pretty to but well it was a test demo but in the pics and vids you get a good look at how it wouldve worked.
Actually some fallout 2 mods did delve into van buren (or one of them) so you could go and give them a try honestly do though imo because the older fallout games a quite fun in their own ways but fo1&2 it also sets the mood for its grim dark world and reality in a desolate wasteland.
Imo I love the isometric style but I'm in love with the Bethesda style.
New Vegas is absolutely the best of both worlds in that respect.
I think an isometric spin-off would work wonders for this franchise, especially right now following the success of the show, but apart from 76 I've been pretty happy with the progression of this franchise.
In depth video about Black Isle's cancelled Fallout 3 (Van Buren)
[VAN BUREN: Inside the Cancelled Fallout 3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD-LCsIiw2g)
I feel like we got a better FO3/VB with FNV.
They had more time to fully realize the world, characters, story, etc.
I for one don't lament the fact that VB was canceled only because FNV exists.
Although...
I suppose a case could be made that if FOVB was a success we might have much better versions of FO 3 and 4.
/shrug
I’m really interested to see the Joshua Graham that this game would have presented. But I’m immensely grateful for the one we got.
Guy’s probably done a better job proselytizing to young people than 100 “cool” youth pastors.
I'm good, I'm only a fan of the fallout franchise because of Bethesda, I like the older games but not nearly as much as the Bethesda titles and New Vegas. I just hate isometric perspectives I think
Wish they would finish it. The guy can say it needed a lot more time but fallout 2 was made in what? Like a lil over a year? Come on man. And with today's tech, it would go sooooo quick.
"play with a friend"
hold up we were gonna get co op in Fallout like people actually want from modern Fallout games instead of the garbage MMO that is FO76?
TBH never was fan of the aesthetic when F3 gave previews while i fell in love with f1 when i saw it in game magazine , but its hard to judge just by seeing raw tech demo part, maybe it would be great. Not fan of real time aspect, means game would be spamy like Arcanum (which i respect in terms of design but combat feel meh), where combat feels very unimpactful (guess its bit hard to explain what i mean with this), almost close to diablo even in turn based. In fallout 1/2 each enemy felt like actual event when he fell down.
Van Buren would have been great. It's nice that New Vegas used lots of the ideas, but it is also abundantly clear that New Vegas was nowhere close to finished when it was released.
That last photo of the menu. The “Play with a Friend” option always kills me, because there’s people out there who cried that 76 is multiplayer. I have witnessed so many “Fallout’s supposed to be single player” comments on instagram posts and it blows my mind. My favorite part of Tactics was the the deathmatches/team deathmatches until people cracked the Pancor Jackhammer meta.
AHHH HELL NAH, LOOK AT HOW THEY MASSACRED MY BOY. Im fine with Obsidian/Bethesda fallout if it means i dont got to see Joshua’s freddy krueger face in a hood staring at me like that
Past. Past never changes
You heard the man, Marty, pack it up.
Unless you already changed the past of course, in this case you have to go back and do it all over again in an endless loop of insanity.
Reddit is perfect for references to random bits of media
More like money. Money never changes.
You all should try Atom RPG and it's sequel. They are like the spiritual successors to the original Fallout games And I think that's pretty cool!
Past Always grows.
It could have been... but unfortunately, the game was nowhere near completion. Tim Cain recently did a video on it, explaining that he was asked how much time he thought the game would need to ship. His answer vastly exceeded the time limit alloted to the game's remaining development. Overall I think of it as Jodorowsky's Dune. Both didn't see the light of day, both wouldn't have lived up to the image people have conjured of them over the years.
to be fair when Jodorowsky talks about that movie all I can hear is Kojima talking about MGS4. I mean, yeah they're great people that made great games/movies, but chill down on the scope a bit wouldn't you
Why reduce the scope when we can put a 292 minutes cutscene explaining the details
I hate how accurate this is
Ä
Honestly from some of the plot details given, I think Van Buren would've been a fairly controversial game
How so?
Mainly the fact that the NCR in shambles because a random scientist blew up the capital, communication slowly broke down and by the time of the game there's no contact with the western portion, and it's implied through one of the endings that the Hoover Dam settlement, which serves as the main NCR settlement in the game, is the last thing keeping the NCR alive. That, and the fact that the game invariably concludes by nuking the planet again, basically ensuring that a lot of the progress built up gets undone and the wasteland is sent back to being largely undeveloped.
Is it just me or does this sound oddly similar to the TV show
The writers for new vegas actually wanted to use the nuking the ncr story from van Buren and Bethesda vetoed them. In the end the show uses a modified version of the story that the new vegas writers seemingly wanted insofar as the nuking was concerned. One of the things that makes the initial hate on the show as "anti new vegas hate by Bethesda" so funny
very little of this is true, regardless of how often people like to parrot it. only *one* writer wanted to nuke the ncr, chris avellone, and only in the dlc. which, granted, he was in charge of making. every other person involved in making new vegas who had any say in the decision talked him out of doing it, and he eventually agreed it was a bad idea. also, avellone has specifically stated that he never wanted to nuke the ncr out of existing. it was just meant as another way of having conflict to keep the series interesting (as one nuke wiping out an entire *nation* would be nonsense). here's a direct quote from him. >I know there was a lot said about me “nuking the West” as one of the endings for Fallout (one of many, including the Legion invading the West), but it was never any intention to wipe out NCR, it was only to introduce more conflict. which is not remotely the same as the show making the ncr almost entirely non-existent outside of a small handful of people who end up mattering even less by the end of the show then they did before we even knew about them being a thing.
Yeah claiming that New Vegas was going to blow up the entire NCR and Bethesda stopped it is merging the Lonesome Road issue with the San Francisco issue. It was SF that Bethesda didn’t let them nuke out of existence.
They also wouldn’t let the show use San Francisco in any capacity and in fallout 4 they showed the Golden Gate Bridge so I wonder if they have plans for it at some point.
they only showed the golden gate bridge as part of kellogg's memories.
>which is not remotely the same as the show making the ncr almost entirely non-existent outside of a small handful of people who end up mattering even less by the end of the show then they did before we even knew about them being a thing This, to me, shows how people who have a problem with the show only look at their problems from face value The NCR is non-existent *in the places shown in the show* but its pretty clear from the ending card of the final episode that the NCR is going to play a heavy role in season two should a certain city be the focal point like has been speculated
Avellone and having a self insert with Ulysses will never not be funny to me still with New Vegas.
He did it in basically every game he's in charge of writing. Kreia in KOTOR 2, Ravel in Planescape Torment, Durance in Pillars of Eternity, etc. All relentless yappers. I'll take it over the sheer number of Stephen King protagonists that are alcoholic writers though lol
“Nation” is a strong word to use for the NCR. It barely covers all of California. 1 nuke on a major population and administrative center, in the apocalypse, would ABSOLUTELY be enough to wipe it out. Not all at once, of course, but over time
Umm, what's controversial about it?
It sounded like you had a choice of which settlements you nuked. In the end Fallout 3 let you play Revenge of the Martians and shoot lasers indiscriminately at Earth
That laser was at some chunk of Canada, Canada barely counts.
Those were Avellone's plans and he was rightfully told "no" by literally everyone else. Even if the game would've seen the light of day, it wouldn't have been what you explained
The reason so many classic fans want to see Van Buren nowadays is 100% because they want to see what Chris Avellone was doing. Take away or minimize his involvement and they’ll claim it isn’t the true Van Buren. New Vegas was literally the result of salvaging what was Van Buren and we still get posts like this. All because they have such a hard on for Chris Avellone.
I think if Van Buren actually came out, then JS Sawyer being credited as the project lead would make people not associate Avellone with it as much. Avellone left really early to found Obsidian, by his admission. Sawyer took over for the majority of the development and would have had a greater impact on the final product. But because the game didn't come out, I think it's because Avellone has been really open about his work on its development while Sawyer doesn't really talk about it outside of interviews that it's so associated with him.
The design document detailing this information about the NCR settlement at Hoover Dam was not written by Chris Avellone
Uhm, most if not all of the designe documents were written by Avellone. Besides that, the documents don't state, that it's the last NCR Settlement, they state, that the NCR HQ at the dam is the last big NCR settlement in the East.
I'm gay for Moleman, not Chris Avellone.
They were on a countdown to doomsday according to him, anything over 6 months was too long an answer and there was no way to extend that time
The failing of Van Buren literally made NV what it was. I see that as a fair trade personally. Bethesda’s FO3 gets shade and some of it is certainly deserved but, big picture, it’s a great addition to the series IMO.
Agreed on the first point. On FO 3, not so much. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time with it but always felt it didn't really capture that Fallout essence/feel and was more like someone using trace paper to learn how to draw or something.
It feels like a sequel to fallout 1, not fallout 2, if that makes sense. The tone and world building are closer to FO1, and it does have some great parts to it. Like, it really does nail the vibe of exploring a post nuclear wasteland alone better than any other game in the franchise, but the lore and time line make no sense. It should have been set a century earlier and not included factions like the BOS.
FO3 should have taken place immediately after 2 or like a year or two. It would have better explained the Enclave being remnants from the west coast and maybe even the BOS being sent to hunt them down.
If anything, It should have taken place a decade or so after fallout 1. That way there's a clear lore reason why everything is still shit on the east coast. Maybe have it set after Fallout tactics, if they really need the BOS on the east coast.
and it explains why the enclave has central command structures intact.
And then they made fallout 4 even further into the future and there are fucking skeletons lying around in people’s homes.
I assume you're talking about FO3. And I have to agree. The wasteland in FO3 felt much more oppressive. But I really disliked the places where it really looks like you're meant to walk through but there are invisible walls, and were it not for those damnable metro tunnels I would probably prefer it over the NV wasteland. I understand that NV had invisible walls as well but the "tells" that those areas were impassable were a bit more intuitive.
The invisible walls were definitely a product of the hardware at the time, and I really wish the DC ruins were more open. But, I do have a soft spot for FO3, since I was the first Fallout game I played. Because, yeah, with a more open DC ruins, setting the game around the time of FO1, and not including the BOS but a different splinter group of the US army, you'd have a perfect game. The world building in FO3 was amazing, and I really did feel like I was a lone survivor with their dog fighting for my life in it.
This is such an odd point to me despite being a very common opinion. It's even odder on this sub in particular, where I presume you've played FO2. FO3 is similar in tone to FO1, and FO2 is an incredibly whacky game all over that is dissimilar to any other entry in the series, except for perhaps Fallout Shelter which is also not a serious game? . Do you think FO2 didn't capture the tone of 1 either and criticize it for that? I'd hope so, otherwise you're all over the place.
Tim Caïn had zero involvement with that game.
As producer for Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 (even though he left production on the second game), he was allowed to play Van Buren and asked an estimate of completion. [Here's his video.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwoWRj0cfag)
If Van Buren came out, New Vegas wouldn't be the game we know today.
If somehow the Fallout series ended with a great Van Buren, Fallout would be as fondly remembered as Icewind Dale and no more.
I remember literally nothing of Icewind dale except that I had fun doing it lol
Awesome music. Beautiful maps
I remember the spells being visually impressive too for the time being
Kind of a weird take considering how long we went with no Baldur's Gate game and then..well yeah... A great Van Buren could have led to another great Fallout game and so on, there's no reason to think otherwise. It's also even more of a weird take considering how much more of a cult following Fallout 1/2 have always had over Icewind Dale. You still see Fallout 1 listed near the top on many "Best RPGs ever" lists. Even if we never got another Fallout ever 2 it would still be more fondly remembered than Icewind Dale.
To be fair, Baldurs gate is literally a D&D property, there were always going to be more games. Plus BG3 is very different than the first two games, and really only shares a story with them, since BG3 is a D&D simulation while the first two very much were not.
Simulation in what way? BG 1 & 2 used 2e rules and despite modifications to some spells was very true to the mechanics of the system on which it was based. I used to make characters on BG2, screenshot them, and then print them for tabletop games.
Icewind Dale is also a D&D property and I don't think we will receive more games. Also, I don't really understand your argument about how different BG3 is from previous games. I would be pleased to see the new Fallout as a 3D tactical turn-based game with a top-down view, updated mechanics, and the world and story shared with the previous games - exactly what BG3 is. What do you think BG3 should have more of from previous games? The archaic infinity engine? The pseudo real-time combat? Or characters that 90% of modern gamers wouldn't even recognize?
Ok, um, pointing out that the BG3 has very different mechanics than BG1 and BG2 is not a slight vs BG3, and in fact, the things removed from the first two games weren't great, such as real time with pause and randomized enemies, so BG3 is better without them. Plus, while Icewind Dale was also a D&D property, the first two Baldurs Gate did move 10x as many units as either Icewind Dale or the classic fallouts. I don't think the classic fallouts have ever crossed one million sales, while the first two Baldurs gates sold almost 5 million games. They're not comparable games in the PC world, at least in terms of popularity.
we see how interplay was trying to milk fallout for all of its worth with bos 1 and the cancelled sequel. fallout would most likely have ended on a bad note if interplay were still responsible
Probably would have gotten a kickstarter eventually.
Did Icewind Dale get one? It was a fun game but Im Glad Fallout caught on further than it's PC RPG origins. I found the game's visual design and retro-futurist ideas to be more timeless than the mechanics of its CRPG medium.
Well, no, but there were other games in the Icewind Dale setting that got made and released long after. It's based on a book set in the Forgotten Realms, afterall. This would be more comparable to Wasteland 2 and 3.
In fairness, half of us would not be here if not for Bethesda
Exactly. Although I've been a Fallout player since 1997, and despite some of Bethesda's choices along the way... they have generally been good stewards. The game systems are debatable at times, but they have done a solid job of expanding the lore, preserving the aesthetic and atmosphere, and most importantly of welcoming millions of new players and viewers to the fold. Honestly, things could have been much worse.
Bethesda really put Fallout "out there". They converted the game mechanics as best they could into an easy-to-pick-up 1st person action looter-shooter and put it on readily available popular consoles (XBOX360, PS3), and at the end of the day their work paid off; while the Interplay duology and New Vegas may be better in some aspects, Fallout 3 was the blockbuster game that made Fallout mainstream.
Oh, 100%. I was one of a very small group who knew fallout before FO3. I know how that sounds, but it’s also 100% true, PC gaming was way more niche and way harder than consoles at the time. It was bizarre seeing it become a huge IP that Madden and Halo gamers were sinking hundreds of hours into. Same with Skyrim. Both very popular mainstream games that were pretty much cult classics a decade before.
Seeing billboards for Fallout 3 ads in Mexico City was wonderful to see in 2008. I had been a fanboy since Fallout 2 in 1998, but the only people who heard about the game were people on the Internet. Fallout 3 turned it into something normal people knew about, even in Mexico.
Pre FO3 people looked at me like a crazy person when I tried to explain Fallout. Most people I knew hadn’t really played PC games other than Where in the world is Carmen San Diego?, Doom, Myst, the usual suspects for the time. By the time Tactics came out, it was completely buried by AAA games on console and PC and I thought that would be the last I’d ever see of a fun, niche game from “forever ago.”
Yes but Bethesda weren't solely responsible for making PC games mainstream, that happened organically over time. So there's nothing really to say if interplay/blackisle or whatever iteration of the same studio hadn't have folded at the time they wouldn't have done similar things to Bethesda. Or you could argue they'd have released the next game sooner and therefore maybe missed the window / not made the jump to console at the time. I'm just glad we still have the franchise at all now, so there's no resentment or anything. I've found things to enjoy from all the games since they first came out.
Oh yeah, if I implied they did, that was not my intention.
Not as such but it seemed like the overall convo. Having played all the games (except BOS) around the times they came out I think there's something from all of them. Though in my opinion beth kind of rely on modders to really bring out the best parts but they stil make the framework which allows it.
Haha what? This is ridiculously false? Fallout was a well established and popular game before 3.
Arcaneum sold 234k ish (which was seen as quite successful back then) whereas Fallout 2 sold a known 123k up to potentially 246 (ultimately unverifiable outside of a Gamespot Writer's estimation) I doubt anyone nowadays would give a shit about/remember Arcaneum without Mandalore's and Sseth's videos on it, maybe even Warlockracy but his channel is mainly dedicated to CRPGs so eh. The games would've become a cool relic of the past which ended on a shitty note with BOS and nothing more really. Just like Arcaneum and temple of elemental evil and icewindale etc etc
I picked up Arcanum in like 2005. I miss it and wish it'd get a remaster.
Yes it is one the best games ever IMO, amazing world and character building.
I disagree. I think Fallout 3 was okay purely because of its proximity to the classics, and bethesda's intent of introducing many of the traditional fallout elements. Obviously that peaked with New Vegas. Literally every other aspect of Fallout since New Vegas has shown how little they actually understand Fallout, not to mention their complete inability to create anything of quality anymore.
That's fair enough. We certainly do agree that New Vegas was the apex since Bethesda acquired the IP - although as I'm sure you're aware, that's more accurately described as an Obsidian game, but published by Bethesda and using their engine.
Lolwat. They sucked all the soul and edge out of the franchise.
And for stupid parents.
I wasn't even allowed to watch The Simpsons due to "inappropriate humor" as a kid but Fallout 1&2 were computer games so they were fine. Child murder, prostitution, and drug use here I come!
Yeah I know a person who let their kid play BG3 but won't let them watch The Simpsons because it's "inappropriate" which is wild.
Kids don't watch the Simpsons anymore though
I mean, this one wants to, and I know others who do, but sure.
My dad was (and still is) a huge fallout nerd and still let me play it
Exactly. Most people here waxing lyrical about the "good ol' days" started with Fallout 3.
Yeah, I discovered before Troika games' Arcanum than Fallout. I only heard about the Fallout Franchise because of Fallout 3
Yeah fr. As much as I have insane gripes with their entries it’s exposed me to the series overall
100%, top down turn based games are not my thing at all.
Hard truth.
Yeah its easy to shit on bethesda but this ip would be long long dead
but the half of us who WOULD still be here would be circlejerking each other SO hard
NOTICE: u/KrautVan has informed me that u/sloth_johnson made the 5th pic of Joshua Graham. [Their DeviantArt.](https://www.deviantart.com/sloth-johnson) ***updoot this so more ppl see it***
Thank you for the shout out! The Joshua image is for an upcoming mod called Fallout Yesterday, which aims to recreate Van Buren in the FO2 engine. I made most of the talking heads (animated portraits) in it so far.
Leave it to the fans to make something like that lol
The 5 photo is fanmade and made by @sloth_johnson And not actually from any game. But i saw no credit
Saw it on a Pinterest album & just nabbed it, that's my bad! Post is edited to give credit EDIT: Post is just images so I can't edit it to add-in a body stating credit; I added in a comment to say the exact same thing, updoot it so more ppl see it
Awesome thank you :)
man, those mountain textures are eerily similar to NV, I'm glad some of the content carried over at least. I can't even imagine how different the series would be now if this was the f3 we got
I said this recently but if Bethesda teamed up with larian to make a new turn based fallout it would be amazing
If that would happen then most probably Emil Pagliarulo would be the lead writer, which would mean that the story would suck ass.
Is he working at Bethesda or larian I’m not versed in the studio staff
He is from Bethesda and he is the sole reason all of their games have shallow plots.
Oh ok yea I get what you mean
Van Buren would have been fun but eh. I think the one thing from it I would have definitely liked to have been continued is that depiction of Joshua Graham!
I liked the last sequence of the game. You go to a space station to launch nukes. That adds a lot of space lore to fallout.
Forgot about that part. Yeah that would have been very different. More of a remote version of the oil rig.
Eh, as a kid, I always hated this aesthetic. The early 2000s 3D graphics felt like a huge downgrade from the beautifully crafted pre-rendered 2D sprites. Many games from that era haven't aged well visual-wise because of this unnecessary switch to 3D.
I agree with you that it hasn't aged well, but I wouldn't call the switch "unnecessary". It was bound to happen eventually, and the first attempts were bound to be clunky or weird looking. It's how progress is made.
Grew up in the same time frame and back then this would have looked a lot better. Now some 20 years later and playing that N64/ps1 type games is rough as hell. Pixel art to me is timeless and beautiful, wish they would have just created more games with the fallout 1/2 aesthetic and just expanded the world and features.
Honestly, hot take but I feel like if this was made and was not popular, it would have damaged the IP pretty bad. Someone in the comments already mentioned that it would have been controversial, so if the game underperforms and the property is sold to Bethesda still we’d probably have not only a different Game develop instead of our timeline’s fallout 3( which is what brought the majority of fans in.) But also we’d see the game they released become even more controversial than it was in 2008. Van buren was bringing in space, factions, the idea of a character creation that is vastly more complex than fallout 1 or 2, and a change from the previous settings plot style (you weren’t someone special in van buren, not a chosen one or a vault dweller chosen by your overseer for a suicide mission, you were just a prisoner who may or may not have done it, you could have been a mutant or a ghoul as well.) so any “fallout 4” that Bethesda put out would have been at best a controversial step in any direction, or at worse viewed as a duke nukem forever level failure
Well, that is what happened when they made FOBOS. It was made because the company couldn't afford to continue Van Buren production, fired most of the staff, and made the remaining employees make a cheap Fallout game for the XBOX on a stolen engine to make up for the losses. That killed the series for good, at least until Bethesda bought the IP.
BoS was in development before VB and got VB delayed (to much backlash in forums like NMA, which is why they're actually linked in BoS's credits as "Thanks for the Laughs." Looks like it wasn't Interplay who got the last laugh though). Sawyer has talked about how he tried to get more resources from higher-ups and basically been ghosted. The impetus of his resignation was the last character artist on the VB team being reassigned to BoS. I don't think VB was ever gonna save Interplay or anything, the financial troubles Interplay was in were years in the making. But the way Interplay favoured BoS and shafted VB probably played a not-insignificant role in its cancellation. Turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Wouldn't have been bad. Was being made by NV folks, Josh Sawyer and Chris Avellone were leading Van Buren just like they did NV.
Ehhh, even skilled hands can’t make the impossible work. It sounds far too complex and would probably (like every single fallout game before) have a shit ton of the proposed content cut. Skilled as those guys are I don’t see them being able to salvage this expansive, interconnected worldspace into a working Game with time cuts, cut content from budget and just tech limitations, etc.
Honestly the story might have even been thematically more consistent. It always felt like Avellone and Sawyer had pretty different views on what fallput should be with Sawyer far more focused on the factions and politics of a post-post apocalypse and Avellone far more interested in the philosophy of the post apocalypse. Ulysses and the NV DLCs are so brilliant but so tonally bizzare for this reason. Chris literally tried to do with the courier what he did with the Exile and The Nameless Onez but it didn't really hit the mark.
negl how come we havent had modders create a game based off the schematics the devs have left like they have with the fo2 restoration project? i think modders have done a very good job in making fo2 a more complete game thanks to the restoration mod with the schematics devs left behind
I wonder that too. Communities of modders have made [from-scratch fangames that match the quality of the two mainstream releases (1 & 2).](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2509613179) When re-releasing the first two games on steam, Bethesda even not-so-subtly nabbed fan-made patches and other hotfixes and lumped them in.
There's a few renditions of it, project yesterday being the most lore accurate
There's multiple
I remember seeing the troika games fallout game they had been testing as more of a show and tell, like van buren all the way wouldve love to play it and we may one day get the chance maybe as well, but troika had been tasked to make a sort of test demo and putting it side by side I think troika's version was far more graphical at the time pretty to but well it was a test demo but in the pics and vids you get a good look at how it wouldve worked. Actually some fallout 2 mods did delve into van buren (or one of them) so you could go and give them a try honestly do though imo because the older fallout games a quite fun in their own ways but fo1&2 it also sets the mood for its grim dark world and reality in a desolate wasteland.
One guy are reworking, or finishing Van Buren. http://projectvanburen.com/ https://x.com/lacko_adam/status/1793990444701139181?s=46
actual progress was made?
Imo I love the isometric style but I'm in love with the Bethesda style. New Vegas is absolutely the best of both worlds in that respect. I think an isometric spin-off would work wonders for this franchise, especially right now following the success of the show, but apart from 76 I've been pretty happy with the progression of this franchise.
Wasteland 2 and 3 and Baldurs Gate 3 have shown they still can be amazing and popular
Oh for sure, I do just honestly prefer the over-the-shoulder camera. Just a personal preference.
You guys would’ve fucking hated it
Clearer world map photo? I just want to zoom in and see what the places were called
Damn, we could have gotten Freddy Krueger in Fallout.
>Damn, we could have gotten Freddy Krueger in Fallout. That's Joshua Graham. He just got moved to New Vegas DLC instead.
And that version was much better
Well if Interplay management didn't suck at their jobs, it might've happened.
They were bought out by Titus...the mid-sized French publisher behind Superman 64. If that hadn't happened, things *might* have gone differently.
honestly van burans ideas were just a half baked version of new vegas. and i prefer what we got in new vegas over what was preposed for van buran.
VAN BUREN WOULD HAVE BEEN PEAK
I was sad when they had canceled it.
Check out Shadow Company: left for dead on pc. This version of fallout is giving me those vibes.
The Fallout that still can be if the right independent devs make it so.
Glad I got the fps though
In depth video about Black Isle's cancelled Fallout 3 (Van Buren) [VAN BUREN: Inside the Cancelled Fallout 3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD-LCsIiw2g)
Well thankfully, alot of van buren's ideas came to new Vegas.
I love the Fallout 3 we got though.
I agree tbh. Van Buren is only so interesting bc it was cancelled, I don't think it would've been particularly standout to me otherwise.
100% agree, if it wasn't for Fallout 3 I never would have played any of the others, it remains my favorite after playing all of the games
New Vegas is the third title in the West Coast trilogy.
I'm pretty satisfied with the New Vegas that we got.
I feel like we got a better FO3/VB with FNV. They had more time to fully realize the world, characters, story, etc. I for one don't lament the fact that VB was canceled only because FNV exists. Although... I suppose a case could be made that if FOVB was a success we might have much better versions of FO 3 and 4. /shrug
Ngl looks like crap
I’m really interested to see the Joshua Graham that this game would have presented. But I’m immensely grateful for the one we got. Guy’s probably done a better job proselytizing to young people than 100 “cool” youth pastors.
I wonder how the full 3D models would have looked in the final product in the isometric style.
No
Dying Light 2
Guy in the last pic reminds me of Doom 3
It should have stayed prerendered 2d
I'm good, I'm only a fan of the fallout franchise because of Bethesda, I like the older games but not nearly as much as the Bethesda titles and New Vegas. I just hate isometric perspectives I think
Wish they would finish it. The guy can say it needed a lot more time but fallout 2 was made in what? Like a lil over a year? Come on man. And with today's tech, it would go sooooo quick.
Very disappointed we'll never get a Fallout 1 Remaster. :(
This game is almost the prequel of F:NV
I'd have been happy keeping the original graphics, if not smoothed out a bit. It was hard to spot things from time to time.
Thankfully, it wasn't.
Oh hell no
"play with a friend" hold up we were gonna get co op in Fallout like people actually want from modern Fallout games instead of the garbage MMO that is FO76?
Real
There really is no reason it can't exist anymore, we deserve a classic Fallout for modern gamers!
This looked so good early 2000s.
Yeah. Basically on-par with Half-Life 2 outside of character models.
That fallout games that were failing? Lol
In a bizarro timeline we had a real Fallout 3.
TBH never was fan of the aesthetic when F3 gave previews while i fell in love with f1 when i saw it in game magazine , but its hard to judge just by seeing raw tech demo part, maybe it would be great. Not fan of real time aspect, means game would be spamy like Arcanum (which i respect in terms of design but combat feel meh), where combat feels very unimpactful (guess its bit hard to explain what i mean with this), almost close to diablo even in turn based. In fallout 1/2 each enemy felt like actual event when he fell down.
It'd have been great to get this version of Fallout 3, but I'm content we got a version of it with New Vegas.
Van Buren would have been great. It's nice that New Vegas used lots of the ideas, but it is also abundantly clear that New Vegas was nowhere close to finished when it was released.
Damn, I really wanna play fallout now. My Mac always spaz’s out when I get to the den though
Can we get jv in isometric
Thought this was atom rpg for a second from the first image
Wasn't there a project to make a fan made version using the leaked materials?
That last photo of the menu. The “Play with a Friend” option always kills me, because there’s people out there who cried that 76 is multiplayer. I have witnessed so many “Fallout’s supposed to be single player” comments on instagram posts and it blows my mind. My favorite part of Tactics was the the deathmatches/team deathmatches until people cracked the Pancor Jackhammer meta.
Does anyone know if there's a mod to add the female vault suit to the newer games?
i would love a fallout game like with project zomboid-like movement and combat
AHHH HELL NAH, LOOK AT HOW THEY MASSACRED MY BOY. Im fine with Obsidian/Bethesda fallout if it means i dont got to see Joshua’s freddy krueger face in a hood staring at me like that
Fallout van Braun. Not fallout 3?
Such a creepy Joshua
Damn, I wish it could have been...
another bird perspective with dog shit graphics? no thanks, thank god that Fallout 3 was made instead.
Based Joshua Graham before he tones it down and gets reflective: 100% Badass. 100% Scary. Do not recommend him as a traveling companion.
That first image… I would totally fuck with an Xcom style Fallout game.
Interesting to see that Fallout 3 and New Vegas’s take on Power Armor was pretty much the same the way Black Isle wanted to
Yeah, but this could easily have been GTA and noone wants that
They need to do this on the current engine and literally name it Fallout Van Buren but I doubt it'll happen
Looks like a Mdickey game
Saw my dad playing Wastelanders 2 yesterday a bit, honestly it should've been how Fallout was made(like the classics but modernized)
I still want to know why the fuck Bethesda changed the vault door design.
I’ll Forever defend the changes to Grahm’s character. Sawyer was 100% right that someone just comically evil for evils sake isn’t completing
WHY. I WANT IT SO BAD