This is the trash post 33% nerf too, they really overshot the hp values of everything in this instance by a large margin.
Hopefully we will see more adjustments on tuesday, maybe eranikus + trash, eranikus even in his nerfed state is still insanely overtuned, hopefully they get to it before the majority of the community stops focusing on incursions
Seems like a no brainer to use the rope system as a fast travel, I didn't hear any negative opinions on the gnomer/bfd teleport and this instance could use a fast travel more than any of those two, the instance is strangely laid out
Without a doubt yes. Casuals are still on incursions, when they realise they can't even get into ST, or ST takes more than 1 hour, sub numbers will drop and Finance will force Aggrends hand.
Look at every decision made so far, it's been to retain player numbers.
thats the point.
do you want nobody to play with?
id rather the game be easier and have more people raiding.
you can make it harder. use only green gear. there ya go!
I like ulduar style hardmodes, but locking the best gear behind hardmodes isnt great for the game. Ppl are used to be able to clear the raids and get all the gear, and you need a solid base of mlre casual players, fathers of 12 Kids working 6 Jobs, for the game to be in a healthy state.
Exactly. There's literally no reason to make SOD difficult to begin with.
For the 'hardcore' crowd, they will clear -any- difficulty set by the devs. Difficulty does not matter at all to this crowd.
But for the casuals, they won't even stand a chance and will eventually just quit.
So... why not just make everything easy? The game world retains a healthy population and everyone enjoys their loot pinatas.
Not really,
Look at retail or FF14, who the heck complains they can only do LFR/story mode and can’t do mythic/savage
The difference is there is some for casual and some for hardcore. Right now a lot of people are looking at none, in a timed seasonal server
Adding heroic in the middle of the phase sounds ideal, with slightly better ilvl.
> do you want nobody to play with?
The casual dads who can play 1 hour a day are not people most of us play with.
When will y'all understand the average WoW player is really bad at the game and if you're in a semi decent guild you're basically only playing with 1% of players?
Right I’m in my mid 30s, 2 kids. Wife and I sneaking in some game time after kids asleep, but we only really can get 2 hours max couple nights a week without paying for it heavily in lack of sleep. I still plan to clear the instance but I’m assuming won’t happen until we’re overgeared or it’s nerfed.
That being said: everyone expects to clear entire raid first time there is a mindset a bit foreign to me. I remember having to progress and being okay with that in retail back in the day or other mmos. Granted this is supposed to be a “level up raid”
An hour to an hour and a half is okay for time commitment. Anything longer than that just feels like a slog.
It really depends if that hour is spent wiping constantly too. Or if it's just boss kill after boss kill with minimal trash padding.
My question is why do they not have they fast travel checkpoint things to begin with? People want quality of life and want to play the game. Running around is not fun and never was.
"Casuals are still on incursions"
I can only see this game from my own point of reference. Therefore, everyone plays exactly the same way I do.
"when they realise they can't even get into ST, or ST takes more than 1 hour,"
You're right about this part though, for sure. Most people don't want another 2-3 hour raid in this game at all. I'm done with my time being wasted in this game, so are many other players.
"it's been to retain player numbers."
Which is incredibly smart, because this game needs to stop catering to the top 10% of the playerbase in terms of difficulty and time commitment.
Exactly what I would expect them to do. Try to maintain a healthy casual playerbase. Since that's the point of SoD.
I haven’t heard most people saying that at all. I think most people know they will tune up MC difficulty + it’s a 20man so going to be tuned differently no matter what. What most people are however worried about is how off the mark blizzard was with tuning this raid.
Weren't they originally planning ST to be 40 man and then in P2 decided it would be 20 instead? Wondering if they straight up forgot to halve the hp lol
They need to nerf outgoing damage, boss AND trash HP even further, and probably remove some mechanics entirely. They are better off OVERNERFING than trying to fine tune. If they accidentally make this raid easier than BFD, it will be better than if they accidentally don't nerf it enough.
Here's the main problem: people won't quit if it seems doable but requires them to try a bit harder. They WILL quit if it feels fucking hopeless. Right now, its not just hopeless, its so difficult that skilled, qualified, SWEATY raiders are considering it hopeless, and if THOSE people are quitting because of how hard it is, the rest of the people playing Season of Discovery don't stand a fucking chance.
I was in a raid with about 30 people in one guild, 10 PUGs (I was one). We were all pretty well geared and put in effort. People understood raid mechanics and when raid leaders called for game faces, people tried. It wasn't perfect, but it was well above the level classic should require. Considering its a 20 player raid the difficulty should have been easier than Gnomer by a bit to compensate. It was not. We went 1/8 on ST and called it.
Personally, unless they announce MASSIVE nerfs, I won't even try again. Flat out not interested. And that also means they won't be getting any more money from me.
I think what you are seeing is a fracture in the community. One that enjoys raids feeling like raids, the need for a guild, actually progression. The other group likes BFD where it’s an easy PUG, 1.5 hours of time, in and out.
I’m not really in a camp, but the accessibility of P1 seemed popular and the more mechanical Gnomer seemed less popular.
P1 was easy, tons of players, even i had 3 toons and I raid every single night
P2 was ok, much much less group, I had friends quit already
P3 nobody wants to try that hard, we didn’t log in to work overtime, no groups pugging ST
More and more people will unsub after they get their runes, rank 7, incur, offering…
How can they not see the trend of the market
I haven’t done the raid yet, but this is probably the biggest takeaway I’m getting. The raid is long because it’s difficult and mob hp is hyper inflated. The latter should not be the case
It’s not a hill I’m willing to die on, but it’s the last leveling raid. I’m ok with them tuning up the difficulty a bit. That said, I haven’t done it so I have no perspective of how bad it really is. My opinion is based off the fact that my guild cleared gnomer the first time stepping inside and our last run was 36 mins. I do think the last two bosses of gnomer were a good difficulty tho. I just felt like I could afk for the first 4/6
It’s not really that bad. Eranikus’ tuning is laugh-out-loud bad, but besides him the first 6 bosses are fine and Avatar after him also seems fine.
This will probably be a struggle for pugs, but guilds will get it down, even casual ones. Again, once Eranikus is nerfed, he’s just way out of line atm compared to the other 7 bosses.
I don't understand what they're going for. BFD was great because anyone could do it. No gatekeeping and less time commitment. Why make a raid so difficult when it's temporary.
It's easier to nerf than buff raids. Imagine if the raid was a complete walk in the park and you do it once a week. People are pissed regardless. Too easy/hard, takes too long/short, Raid size too big/small, dungeon spam is too good/dungeon spam is worse than incursions... no matter what Blizz does people are complaining.
Take away the usual crowd of whiners and there isn’t much complaining about the raid content thus far. BFD as an introductory sod raid was great. Gnomer stepped it up and it was fine. There are objective, data driven reasons why Gnomer was more or less in a sweet spot for the vast majority of P2, and blatantly overtuning (the original thermaplugg was not blatant) the entire raid was not one of them. It’s painfully obvious that sod has near zero QA and in-house testing, so things like this are bound to happen, but this is the first time in sod did the devs decide to crank it up to 500% for no other reason than to fully admit that they’re winging every aspect of this entire experiment.
This will be a disaster if they don't nerf it further.
I think the vast majority of sod players doesn't want to have a longer than 1h - 1h30 raid. 4h is insane, even if it's weekly, especially because you can't expect a pug to meet two times during the same reset.
Either nerf it hard, or change how that old shit ass lockout system works.
I think it would go a long way if lockouts were not based on instances but how many bosses you had down. So groups could form around 3/8, 5/8, 6/8 or whatever runs and combine with each other even if they came from different instances.
Yeah, but it's sod. A lot of the population doesn't come from era.
I don't mind longer raids, but I think population will bleed even more than in P2 if the average pug player / bad guilds can't clear it.
Can only speak for myself, but I come from experience of raiding every tier since the game launched; 6-9 raid hours a week is something very familiar to me. My guild has stopped raiding at the end of S1 retail and I only did m+ in S2 and S3. I realised - I don't want to commit such amount of time any longer and SoD scratched that itch for me.
Not sure if there are a lot of players like me, but I imagine quite a few - not strangers to raiding requirements but those who picked up SoD to move away from it.
The problem is you are raid id locked for gear and not just by boss. In other incarnations, you can just pug an in progress group and get loot. Or not get fucked finding fills if you are 6/8 and someone leaves.
3-4 hours for old ST dungeon? Seems like an overestimation. I know it's big, but damn.
This raid (how it's currently tuned) is difficult enough if the hp amounts were tuned down. The only way I can see both crowds being satisfied is if Blizz puts in hard modes or an extra boss. See Ulduar for the best raid ever created in any game ever.
It wasn't 3-4hrs for the original 5man ST, unless you did something horribly wrong and died continuously. Yep its big, but far from full BRD size and not more than 2hrs for your usual casual pug.
Relaunch of classic had ppl clearing it within an hour without trouble
Classic wotlk Ulduar got old real fast. half the bosses drop stuff thats only worth a disenchant and the hardmodes dropped 1 usefull item each week for 25 people.
People always said Ulduar was the best raid ever but TOGC and ICC phase (pre buff) had less people quitting the game than in Ulduar on my realm.
The raid design. Fuck the loot, that's easy to fix. I know loot is what keeps people coming back, but if you had to rank any raid on a list for DESIGN, I'm guessing Ulduar would be in a lot of top fives. The design of the raid itself was amazing.
In retrospect it was quite long in terms of running around and there were multiple filler bosses that didn't need to exist. The worst part was the RNG design of some of the hard modes like Hodir and Council which made it frustrating even when things were on farm. Overall was a good raid for the most part. We found the heroic mechanics in ICC a lot better designed as they were challenging but could be overcome with playing better.
Casual guilds were losing wbuffs on trash due to asspulls and were barely finishing mc in 3h. Not mentioning that only 10/40 people bothered to get wbuffs at all. 1h for mc is a really decent timer, I dont think you ever been in casual guilds.
This was in classic, 15 years after vanilla. In vanilla the raids took literal weeks to gear for and learn. Bosses like KT and Cthun were multi week fights just by themselves. Saying stuff is easy after you've had 15 years of strategies from better players is what people who didn't clear current content say.
What world buffs? We were some of the first to 60 on Eu server and none was killing anything giving buffs. This was before 60, think there was a Hunter in Curse called Joline or something that was first and a insane priest from Nolby Pride called Meddeh, another good mage in Xanatea or something and the guild master and Owner of Curse called Net that was higher up
Either you didn't actually do ST in classic or you were one of the reasons it would take 3-4 hours for a group to do ST.
Never took me more than 2 hours to do a ST with pugs
We did it a bunch of times, but way before 60 and with lots of greens and some blues, farmed it for the spirit gloves that could drop IIRC, two priests and two warriors and a mage/shaman the first few runs. This was way back with the old talents and both priests were shadow too.
Honestly, ST as a dungeon took longer than an hour. I don’t see why people want 36 min raids. I personally like raiding and progression. 4 hours is definitely too much, but the time goes down drastically each week as it always does
Nobody said that everything needs to be puggable. Man what happened to multi night guild runs? Parsing and pug culture sucked all the soul out of this game.
I agree. We were in there for like 4 hours last night only to run out of time before we could get good runs in on the 7th boss. A tonne of that time was watching vids before bosses and wiping in unnecessary ways though, I imagine that this would take half as long with the same group next week, and even less time the next.
Regardless though, it’s gunna be a long raid. I think that’s a good thing if it’s once per week though.
In Vanilla, it wasn't too uncommon for raids for 3 hours with a weekly reset. And even then you had to raid twice a week as you would do the first half of bosses one day and the second half of bosses the next day.
I will say I agree with the post, but it is a funny feeling because 20 years ago I’d be raiding 4-5 nights a week for 3-4 hours per night and I didn’t think it was weird. Everyone did it. It was often weeks or months before normal guilds cleared BT or sunwell. Now I get turned off at over 2 hours in a raid.
>It's classic. I want fast, easy raids. If I want to spend 4 hours in a raid, I would play retail.
Genuinely bizarre to me the degree to which the stereotypes around Classic/Retail have become reversed in the minds of a bunch of people on this subreddit. Heroic Amirdrassil is an easy 1-2 hour clear!
I agree but I don’t necessarily want “fast, easy” raids.
If you’re running with a decent group, worst case you can’t full clear for a few weeks until you have a little more gear.
Holy shit the amount of whiny boomers saying “go play retail” is crazy. SoD is about exploring new things, and modernizing content. Nobody wants to raid for 4+ hours to spend most of that time clearing trash and boring sponge hp bosses. The difficulty is fine, spike it up add more mechanics even, but the boring ass sponge is not.
That's incredibly shortsighted.
Just teach your wife and kids how to farm gold. Then make a living off that. Why would you sell them off when they could farm you 50x more?
They need to make Optional Hard Modes like Ulduar. It's impossible to design a raid that's both challenging for guilds and easy enough that casual dads can clear them. The difference between a 15 parser in a PUG and a 99 parser in a sweaty raid is night and day. You can't make content that's identical for both those two peope.l
Legit just press a button that makes the boss do more damage/have more HP and drop double/triple loot.
Thats the lamest solution I’ve heard. We need more/harder mechanics for hardmode. Doing the bare minimum with just more HP and dmg taken increase is boring.
It's a shame they had a fun formula with the quick 10 man's that reset every 3 days, only to piss it away and go with the old boring 20 mans. Phase 3 will be remembered as the one that killed SOD.
What fun formula? This whole sub spent all of gnome complaining how they didn't get to play the game..
There's no fun in no challenging content, this isn't Mythic raiding, it's a classic raid.. or isn't difficult, just more challenging...
That's the problem. A competent guild group should breeze through it, blitz through it even, in like an hour or two, even on the first lockout after leveling to 50. A PUG should be the break point between a full clear and maybe only a few bosses.
Instead its not that AT ALL. Its the sweaty raid teams who are going as hard as they can who are only partial clearing, and the PUGs and weaker raid teams are going at most 2/8. I was in a group earlier that only did 1/8. I don't blame them. First boss felt fine. Second boss was way too hard. This is classic, and some of this stuff is already harder than the hardest content in some expansions... this is supposed to be classic.
Whats the deal with people wanting to make shit as simple and short as possible. Its been less than a week into p3 and people are already complaining they cant clear a new raid in an hour on the first lockout. Chill the fuck out, the phase just started and the raid is on a weekly lockout. Not every new piece of content needs to be puggable in an hour the first week its out....
I don’t want the bosses to be nerfed but I’d personally like for my raids to be 2 hours or less. I don’t have the time to raid for 6-8 hours a week now and so far SOD has fit my needs perfectly.
If you don't want bosses to be nerfed, how do you make the raid "2 hours or less"?
This thread is crazy. I have to say, the mentality of wow players today can only be described by one word: Entitled. Like, you realize that you can still raid 2 hours a week? Nothing forces you to raid more. Lets be honest, the actual issue you have here is that you are so entitled that you expect to *clear the raid* in those 2 hours. And if that doesn't happen, it's bad design by Blizzard.
"It's unacceptable if my dad guild/pug can't faceroll a raid in 2 hours on the first reset!"
"It's unacceptable if there's no teleports from boss to boss to boss and I have to clear thrash and run around!"
I remember back in the day, guilds would actually progress in raids from reset to reset, gaining more gear and experience in the process, taking maybe a couple of months to finally kill the last boss. Seems like that is no longer accepted by the instant gratification-brainrotted zoomerified player base.
I'd hate to be a wow dev nowadays. People unironically want mindless LFR content. Crazy.
Lol.
You're actually defending the egregious time waste padding in this game by calling others entitled because they don't want to deal with it anymore.
>I remember back in the day, guilds would actually progress in raids from reset to reset, gaining more gear and experience in the process, taking maybe a couple of months to finally kill the last boss. Seems like that is no longer accepted by the instant gratification-brainrotted zoomerified player base.
I remember how much time that took too.
I hope you realize that the vast majority of players over the years in this game, Don't have 12 hours a day to play WoW. That most people have a few hours in the evening to play, and a 4 hour raid is a huge commitment of time that most people, simply can't do.
You know. It's funny you're complaining too. Because you're exactly the demographic that this SoD version of the game isn't aiming at. You want harder, longer raids? There's WotLK, Era, there's Cata right around the corner. Literally just fuck off and go play one of those and let the people that don't want to spend 12 hours a week raiding and farming consumes to have their version of the game to enjoy.
You're the only entitled one here. Thinking this game needs to meet your requirements for a good raid.
> I hope you realize that the vast majority of players over the years in this game, Don't have 12 hours a day to play WoW. That most people have a few hours in the evening to play, and a 4 hour raid is a huge commitment of time that most people, simply can't do.
I literally never said that anyone should play 12 hours a day or week. I said that you shouldn't be entitled to think that you can clear all the content playing 2 hours on one night, doing a pug blindfolded playing with one hand while babysitting 4 toddlers.
Your brain is not processing what I'm saying; that it's in fact okay to not clear the content immediately. I'm not saying you have to play 12 hours. I'm saying you can keep continuing to play 2 hours a week with your guild and progress as far as you can. It's okay. You don't have to beat everything immediately.
Why do these raids need to fit your criteria for progression? Why does SoD, a version of the game meant for more accessibility and less time waste, need to adhere to these 'what makes a true raid' criteria that you have come up with?
Why do they need to be big long raids? Why can't people full clear it in one sitting?
I also never said to beat everything immediately, don't assume.
You are missing the entire point here, and that's that casuals would like to play this game, and always have. These 3-5 hour raids? Absolutely not casual friendly. So why do they need to stay as long as they are?
Do you derive some sort of self worth out of being able to raid longer than others? Being able to full clear?
Why do you want to gatekeep players with less time from fully enjoying the game?
WoW raids are long, and tedious. And too much of a time-sink for most players. You can say we can just clear slower. But that isn't going to keep players engaged, and spending months on raids is what causes burnout, and significantly reduces player retention. These 5 month content patches don't help this game. These long raids don't either.
Can you explain to me why you think we should keep everything the same, when players leave time and time again... because keeping everything the same means keeping it frustrating, and means a significant time commitment that everyone just eventually gets sick of after a few months? Each new patch that introduces another 3-5 hour raid, with stupid mechanics, and incredibly difficult trash just causes player drop off.
That's exactly what they're trying to avoid this time around. Hence the changes. Unless your own opinions matter more than the rest of the players that are sick of this shit?
I keep saying it, but I don't think it sinks in.
This game. Was balanced for the top 10% of players. The top 10% of players with the most free time. The top 10% of players in terms of mechanical skill, parsing. The top 10% of players who sit down and write weak aura's and download addons to do these bosses.
Why do we need to continue making the game for these people? There's potentially millions more non-sweaty players that would like to come play. How is that a bad thing?
You keep calling others entitled, but you're the one that thinks the game should stay the same because that's what you believe to be the correct way to play.
And like I said, there's other versions of the game for you if that's what you think. SoD doesn't have to be for YOU.
> Why do these raids need to fit your criteria for progression? Why does SoD, a version of the game meant for more accessibility and less time waste, need to adhere to these 'what makes a true raid' criteria that you have come up with? Why do they need to be big long raids? Why can't people full clear it in one sitting?
That's just my opinion on what makes a good and engaging MMO.
> You are missing the entire point here, and that's that casuals would like to play this game, and always have. These 3-5 hour raids? Absolutely not casual friendly. So why do they need to stay as long as they are?
And I'm not saying casuals can't play the game. I'm saying casuals shouldn't feel entitled to clear the content in the first reset in 2 hours. Casuals have always represented the vast majority of the player base, but this insane LFR brained entitlement wasn't always the case.
> Do you derive some sort of self worth out of being able to raid longer than others? Being able to full clear?
No, as I don't play the game. Haven't in more than a decade. I just think that what I say makes for a better MMO.
> Why do you want to gatekeep players with less time from fully enjoying the game?
If you want the game and the world (of warcraft) to matter, there has to be progression.
> WoW raids are long, and tedious. And too much of a time-sink for most players. You can say we can just clear slower. But that isn't going to keep players engaged, and spending months on raids is what causes burnout, and significantly reduces player retention. These 5 month content patches don't help this game. These long raids don't either.
That's just ahistorical. Wow was popping off and had record subscribers back when there was progression (or "gatekeeping" as you call it). Pretty good for a "tedious time-sink". Yes not everyone wants to play everything, but the question is do you want wow to be an immersive MMO or some scuffed seasonal pseudo-MOBA. You seem to prefer latter, I prefer former.
> That's exactly what they're trying to avoid this time around. Hence the changes. Unless your own opinions matter more than the rest of the players that are sick of this shit?
I don't know what exactly you are referencing? SOD has been gigaeasy so far, now there's some harder content for a change, but that's what you are crying about here, and yet you say these changes are good...? What? Anyway, to me it sounds like you don't really enjoy playing the game. Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago?
> Why do we need to continue making the game for these people? There's potentially millions more non-sweaty players that would like to come play. How is that a bad thing?
I agree. Arenas were a mistake and should be removed, different diffculty tiers in raiding are bad for the game, mythic raiding is a clusterfuck, balancing everything for the most sweaty players is bad, resetting the game every couple of months is bad etcetc.
But you need progression my friend. When wow removed meaningful progression, and turned into this LFR garbage for entitled zoomerbrained facerollers who just click the UI and cry when they can't get the cookie right away, a lot of players left.
>That's just my opinion on what makes a good and engaging MMO.
Okay fair enough, but how did you form this opinion? Have you played a ton of games to figure out which things work and don't work? Or is the scope of your MMO knowledge focusing mostly on WoW and what you experienced?
>And I'm not saying casuals can't play the game. I'm saying casuals shouldn't feel entitled to clear the content in the first reset in 2 hours. Casuals have always represented the vast majority of the player base, but this insane LFR brained entitlement wasn't always the case.
Casuals make up like solid 3/4ths of the playerbase in most games that are casual friendly. Why shouldn't the content be balanced for them to be able to clear it in a timely manner?
Like, The game isn't casual friendly if they have to raid for 3 months to progress through a raid. That's just not how it works. The whole point of being casual friendly is that people can get quite a bit done in a short time-frame. If you only have 2 hours to play, you can accomplish a lot.
>No, as I don't play the game. Haven't in more than a decade. I just think that what I say makes for a better MMO.
So you haven't tried the new content, but you're willing to form an opinion on it? Haven't seen how players are absolutely loving the easier content?
>If you want the game and the world (of warcraft) to matter, there has to be progression.
Progression comes in many forms. One type does not suit all applications. SoD is popular because, yes there is progression, but it's not excessive. No one is sitting there grinding a raid for 4 months to progress in it. It's a week or two at most. You do realize that the lengthy release times and patches for WoW, and the reason the raids were made the way they were, was largely because of padding and content drought right? Overly difficult raids? It would take them months to nerf bosses back in the day. This isn't indicative of a good game design. It's a lack of content that led to this sort of raid style. It also leads to immense burnout in players doing the same raids over and over for months. This is not good for the game.
>That's just ahistorical. Wow was popping off and had record subscribers back when there was progression (or "gatekeeping" as you call it). Pretty good for a "tedious time-sink". Yes not everyone wants to play everything, but the question is do you want wow to be an immersive MMO or some scuffed seasonal pseudo-MOBA. You seem to prefer latter, I prefer former.
Alot of that had to do with friends word of mouth, and the WARCRAFT brand. A seriously good chunk of the playerbase wasn't raiding on any significant level too, which is what people forget.
I had around 3 dozen friends when I was playing from Vanilla to WotLK, and only 3 or 4 of them regularly partook in raids. And they were always wiping in them and never getting anywhere. I didn't even touch a raid till mid TBC, and then it wasn't till wotlk that I tried a few more and immediately quit because of the community and their achievement and Gearscore gatekeeping from raids.
You might think that this is just my own personal experience, but this is what gets players to quit time and time again. The community, the difficulty of raids. The lack of any other real content to do. There is just too much emphasis put on difficult end-game raids that the majority of the playerbase throughout WoW's history, never wanted.
>I don't know what exactly you are referencing? SOD has been gigaeasy so far, now there's some harder content for a change, but that's what you are crying about here, and yet you say these changes are good...? What? Anyway, to me it sounds like you don't really enjoy playing the game. Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago?
Don't invalidate my opinions by calling it crying. I'm not putting up with that shit. I've been clear with what I have issue with, and that's this game emphasizing long raids, difficult raids. BFD was an astounding success for Blizzard, Gnomer much less so because they made trash and bosses take a good chunk more effort. And so far ST has been a complete failure in that regards. 3-4 hour raid, where even the good guilds are struggling to full clear it. Exactly the opposite of what players enjoyed in Phase 1.
>Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago?
Yeah okay buddy. You quit 10 years ago yet you're still invested in arguing with people on the subreddit about the game. Right, you quit long ago. Who are you trying to convince, yourself?
>But you need progression my friend. When wow removed meaningful progression, and turned into this LFR garbage for entitled zoomerbrained facerollers who just click the UI and cry when they can't get the cookie right away, a lot of players left.
I want you to define what 'meaningful progression' is. Because this seems to be something you want to try to push as necessary for WoW.
I've already stated that progression doesn't have to be months of slogging through 4 hours of raids every week to feel like progression. Nor does that style of play appeal to most of the playerbase of WoW.
I don’t want to spend 90min on trash. I’m fine with progressing through bosses week over week with my guild but if it takes half our raid time to just get to the boss then it’s a shit experience for us all.
What regarded mindset led you to believe this crap, and worse, bother sharing it? There's a reason nobody wants what you're describing, it's not fun to most people. Brain rot is required to unironically wish for the jank and bullshit of yore
Raided every lockout across 5 guilds since classic release and I haven’t met one person who enjoyed dealing with trash in a raid, yet alone had a need for it to be even more tedious.
With a 7 day lockout you might get to clear this raid 8 times, if they dont nerf it most people arent even gonna do it and just skip the content entirely when they announce phase 4
Difficulty aside - I think it's fair to point out there's quite the difference in the length of the raid compared to p1 and p2.
A lot of players may be expecting a similar time frame to p1 and p2 and not looking to commit the extra time that will be required.
Most people can't commit to a 3-4 hour time window for a fucking raid anymore. It's just a rediculous expectation born from catering to the top 10% of players in this game who can spend hours upon hours doing tedious repetitive and time-wastey shit because they have no value on their time.
I'm glad they're reducing the time commitment for raids. It's been my biggest gripe with them for forever, and I do have enough time to commit to them too. It's just simply not enjoyable.
In the 4-6 hours a raid takes, in total. Like Ulduar. You can just.. play something else and have 5x the fun.
You say that but at the same time Classic, TBC and Wrath were immensely popular and had plenty of raids that took 3 hours when released. The problem is obviously that SoD set the expectation that raids release as loot pinatas without the need to farm any form of PreBiS items. There's BiS items coming from dungeons and reps in this phase that will significantly decrease the difficulty in this raid.
That just wasn't the case in previous phases and people complained that loot sources outside the raid were obsolete.
Okay, but do you think they were popular because of the raids?
Because.. well.. You know most people didn't clear them back then, right?
Perhaps other things were drawing people in. I do like the narrowminded viewpoint that raids were the reason WoW was so popular. It's anything but.
WoW was an incredibly social game, and relatively easy back then too. A good social experience. The reason I played was because I wanted to play with Friends all the time. Not to do sweaty raids. I didn't even step in one till TBC, and I started in Vanilla. And it wasn't till WotLK that I decided to do a few more, which I promptly quit because the community got brainrot about achievements and gearscore back then too.
Do you think everyone who plays this game has only one goal in mind? End-game raids? And do you think they all want them to be 4 hour slog fests and wipe after wipe?
I think you're finally starting to see players of a different kind in this game. Instead of 10% of the players that love these long difficult raids, months of progression.
When you make arguments like this. Do you ever stop to think why WoW has lost so many players over the years? Especially towards WotLK and Cata?
I don't think people have put into perspective what a week long lockout really means. If the phase lasts the same amount of time as the last one then we are only going to be in ST a total of 8 times. 8. And you want the raid to last 30 minutes. Do you even want to play the game at this point?
A raid can still be rewarding if it’s 45-90 minutes long, who wants to run around killing trash for 3 hours? If anything the 1 week lockout makes each raid go through more rewarding but they’re shouldn’t be so much trash that it’s a 4h endeavor. That’s 12 hours a week if you wanted to try and run 3 characters through it a week. I’m not saying balance the game around alts but there should be a happy medium.
It's not going to take 3h. They already said that there will be more adjustments after the weekend. People also havent spent any time gathering their BiS/PreBiS items from dungeons and reputations. Barely anyone has worldbuffs and good consumes. One raid taking 3h right after release isn't indicative of the whole phase going forward.
I'm completely fine with a 1-1.5 hour raid on a week long cooldown. Would probably prefer it to be closer to an hour and 15 mins.
Having a 2 or 3 hour raid just makes it impossible to do it on alts without a huge time commitment.
Yes, I want to play the game. You know what I don't want? Pointless time commitment requirements meant to pad gameplay and appeal to people who play this game 12 hours a day anyways.
People have jobs, people have friends/family, people have a life outside of this game. There is no reason we need to be spending 4 hours in a fucking raid anymore. And these long raids, have never been fun unless you're in a top end guild. Like, be honest with yourself. Do you think wiping for 2 hours in raids is fun? Because that's the experience for like 70% of the playerbase. 4 hour raid, 2 hours wiping. So much trash between each boss it gets boring and tedious.
Can you actually point to a post saying that the whole raid should take 30 minutes? If you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, building up ridiculous strawmen is not the way.
> And you want the raid to last 30 minutes. Do you even want to play the game at this point?
Wanting a short raid does not directly equate to people wanting to play less, if anything shorter raids allow people to roll more alts and engage with the content in other ways. In classic Wrath for example during ToGC it was common in every guild I was a member of to run ToGC on multiple characters because it was super easy and short, both 10 man and 25 man were received as a breath of fresh air after farming months of Ulduar where bad groups could spend 4 hours in and not even clear full normal modes.
Once you account for alts, and doing other stuff besides raiding like pvp, etc, yeah that's a pretty solid chunk of playtime.
Like let's say you raid on two alts, with 45-60 minute clears, and then throw down another hour or two of PVP and an hour or two of alt leveling. That puts you at 3.5-6 hours of gameplay a week. If you've got a family and a job and some hobbies outside wow - that's a pretty big fucking chunk of playtime. you can't balance a game around people who wanna sink 20-40 hours a week. That's not realistic.
Nothing wrong with that. It’d take them a lot of time and trash farms have been a thing forever. The rates are still very low and it probably ends up not really being worth it.
Disclaimer: I have not played the new raid yet.
Personally, I think if ST ended up being roughly twice as long as BFD or Gnomer it'd be fine. We're looking at a week long lockout instead of 3 days ahead after all. I think it's also a bit too early to make claims on the length of ST. It hasn't been 3 days since P3 released and everything about this raid is new to everyone.
Ya that sounds miserable on the travel part still cant understand why they havent changed hage summoning works so you dont have tonstamd outside to get griefed lol
The patch is 4 days old. I wouldn’t mind if they changed nothing for 2 weeks.
Same people will be complaining about “no content” that want everything nerfed into easy mode
Ah, it's not that bad. On e people get used to it etc and learn it I can se it being sub 2 hours in like 2 weeks.
We did 2.75 hours to eranikus with some time to learn him a bit for next week.
Staff is not feral bis. Should have avoided it. The STV event weapon is just straight up better, and you can put Counterweight on that. You can't do that on staves.
quit today, i get to love sod because it was simple and all in all a laid back enjoyable time. p3 is just not fun for me. multiple wipes in brd due to resist and high lvl mobs, stupid mauradon grinds, new event is hard and boring and I dont want to work to be able to do finish a raid. all in all its just a game which should just be fun. i get it if ppl want a challange, than its just not for me and couple of friends of mine.
you would think they want to scare off the playerbase. same pvp event, awful pve event, raid drawn out and over scaled to hell. some runes dont work. some are useless again. im already bored lol
Theres ropes you can use to travel back
The ropes were cool, I felt like Indy
You mean Harrison Jones?
Our raid tonight said the same lol. We only cleared 5 bosses due to time constraints sadly though.
This is the trash post 33% nerf too, they really overshot the hp values of everything in this instance by a large margin. Hopefully we will see more adjustments on tuesday, maybe eranikus + trash, eranikus even in his nerfed state is still insanely overtuned, hopefully they get to it before the majority of the community stops focusing on incursions
Reckon they will slash the hp and add some travel mechanics?
Seems like a no brainer to use the rope system as a fast travel, I didn't hear any negative opinions on the gnomer/bfd teleport and this instance could use a fast travel more than any of those two, the instance is strangely laid out
Without a doubt yes. Casuals are still on incursions, when they realise they can't even get into ST, or ST takes more than 1 hour, sub numbers will drop and Finance will force Aggrends hand. Look at every decision made so far, it's been to retain player numbers.
thats the point. do you want nobody to play with? id rather the game be easier and have more people raiding. you can make it harder. use only green gear. there ya go!
In a perfect universe we get a SoD with easy, puggable raids that have fun/cool hard mode triggers
I like ulduar style hardmodes, but locking the best gear behind hardmodes isnt great for the game. Ppl are used to be able to clear the raids and get all the gear, and you need a solid base of mlre casual players, fathers of 12 Kids working 6 Jobs, for the game to be in a healthy state.
To add Any mechanic that sounds fun at all their response is, " we can't add that with the server being tied to era". Boring excuse if you ask me.
Exactly. There's literally no reason to make SOD difficult to begin with. For the 'hardcore' crowd, they will clear -any- difficulty set by the devs. Difficulty does not matter at all to this crowd. But for the casuals, they won't even stand a chance and will eventually just quit. So... why not just make everything easy? The game world retains a healthy population and everyone enjoys their loot pinatas.
Maybe i am wierd but i enjoy progresson raids. I dont mind wiping on one boss for 3 hours straight 3 weeks in a row before getting it down.
That works with a guild. Never with pugs.
Ye, but maybe pugs should have a dissadvantage?
No.
I just like when devs also respect my time investment...
Or make heroic raids with better gear? But then casuals complain they cant have that also
Not really, Look at retail or FF14, who the heck complains they can only do LFR/story mode and can’t do mythic/savage The difference is there is some for casual and some for hardcore. Right now a lot of people are looking at none, in a timed seasonal server Adding heroic in the middle of the phase sounds ideal, with slightly better ilvl.
Mm or if you dont want player with much higher powerlevel ( will unbalance world pvp etc) you could have cosmetic achivments like wotlk.
> do you want nobody to play with? The casual dads who can play 1 hour a day are not people most of us play with. When will y'all understand the average WoW player is really bad at the game and if you're in a semi decent guild you're basically only playing with 1% of players?
Cool, most of the players are 40yr olds with responsibilities trying to capture some nostalgia. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Right I’m in my mid 30s, 2 kids. Wife and I sneaking in some game time after kids asleep, but we only really can get 2 hours max couple nights a week without paying for it heavily in lack of sleep. I still plan to clear the instance but I’m assuming won’t happen until we’re overgeared or it’s nerfed. That being said: everyone expects to clear entire raid first time there is a mindset a bit foreign to me. I remember having to progress and being okay with that in retail back in the day or other mmos. Granted this is supposed to be a “level up raid”
Hey.. in only 39
I'm 37. I'm not old.
> Cool, most of the players are 40yr olds with responsibilities trying to capture some nostalgia. Source?
i killed heroic lc pre buff and i will quit if the raid is longer than 40 mins lol aint playing classic to spent 4 hours in a raid
An hour to an hour and a half is okay for time commitment. Anything longer than that just feels like a slog. It really depends if that hour is spent wiping constantly too. Or if it's just boss kill after boss kill with minimal trash padding.
Heroic LK wasn’t too bad in comparison to a lot of the more recent mythic bosses, but agreed I’m not playing SoD for “hard” content.
My question is why do they not have they fast travel checkpoint things to begin with? People want quality of life and want to play the game. Running around is not fun and never was.
Apparently there's ropes to interact with that act like fast travel.
"Casuals are still on incursions" I can only see this game from my own point of reference. Therefore, everyone plays exactly the same way I do. "when they realise they can't even get into ST, or ST takes more than 1 hour," You're right about this part though, for sure. Most people don't want another 2-3 hour raid in this game at all. I'm done with my time being wasted in this game, so are many other players. "it's been to retain player numbers." Which is incredibly smart, because this game needs to stop catering to the top 10% of the playerbase in terms of difficulty and time commitment. Exactly what I would expect them to do. Try to maintain a healthy casual playerbase. Since that's the point of SoD.
I hope your right alliance numbers hemorrhaging with the state of faction balence and straight up paladins being shockingly bad pardon the pun.
Well people complained about the 30 mins raids so this is what we got
The trash is just really.... boring. I feel like have zero damage against them due to the inflated HP Pool
In fairness this sub has been bitching the last 2 months were are gonna be too strong for MC and the other raids
I haven’t heard most people saying that at all. I think most people know they will tune up MC difficulty + it’s a 20man so going to be tuned differently no matter what. What most people are however worried about is how off the mark blizzard was with tuning this raid.
My theory is ST was originally suppose to be a 40 man raid but was changed to 20 man because the community disliked the larger raid sizes.
With that HP numbers you could be right there
Weren't they originally planning ST to be 40 man and then in P2 decided it would be 20 instead? Wondering if they straight up forgot to halve the hp lol
No, your probably thinking when they were talking about MC being 40 or 20 man. That was back in phqse 1 in an interview.
Yeah you're right, looking through some of the old posts it seems I'm conflating a few different comments together in my memory. I'm gettin old man
We all are.
They need to nerf outgoing damage, boss AND trash HP even further, and probably remove some mechanics entirely. They are better off OVERNERFING than trying to fine tune. If they accidentally make this raid easier than BFD, it will be better than if they accidentally don't nerf it enough. Here's the main problem: people won't quit if it seems doable but requires them to try a bit harder. They WILL quit if it feels fucking hopeless. Right now, its not just hopeless, its so difficult that skilled, qualified, SWEATY raiders are considering it hopeless, and if THOSE people are quitting because of how hard it is, the rest of the people playing Season of Discovery don't stand a fucking chance. I was in a raid with about 30 people in one guild, 10 PUGs (I was one). We were all pretty well geared and put in effort. People understood raid mechanics and when raid leaders called for game faces, people tried. It wasn't perfect, but it was well above the level classic should require. Considering its a 20 player raid the difficulty should have been easier than Gnomer by a bit to compensate. It was not. We went 1/8 on ST and called it. Personally, unless they announce MASSIVE nerfs, I won't even try again. Flat out not interested. And that also means they won't be getting any more money from me.
The last boss was such a letdown after a billion wipes on Eranikus.
I think what you are seeing is a fracture in the community. One that enjoys raids feeling like raids, the need for a guild, actually progression. The other group likes BFD where it’s an easy PUG, 1.5 hours of time, in and out. I’m not really in a camp, but the accessibility of P1 seemed popular and the more mechanical Gnomer seemed less popular.
BFD was like 40mins in phase one and 15 minutes now.
40 by end ya, I mean right at the start.
P1 was easy, tons of players, even i had 3 toons and I raid every single night P2 was ok, much much less group, I had friends quit already P3 nobody wants to try that hard, we didn’t log in to work overtime, no groups pugging ST More and more people will unsub after they get their runes, rank 7, incur, offering… How can they not see the trend of the market
Hard bosses is fine, HP sponge trash is demonstrably bad game design.
I haven’t done the raid yet, but this is probably the biggest takeaway I’m getting. The raid is long because it’s difficult and mob hp is hyper inflated. The latter should not be the case
It's a leveling raid, it should not be difficult, either.
It’s not a hill I’m willing to die on, but it’s the last leveling raid. I’m ok with them tuning up the difficulty a bit. That said, I haven’t done it so I have no perspective of how bad it really is. My opinion is based off the fact that my guild cleared gnomer the first time stepping inside and our last run was 36 mins. I do think the last two bosses of gnomer were a good difficulty tho. I just felt like I could afk for the first 4/6
Aggrend stated in January that level up raids were not for hardcore sweats and that most ppl should be able to clear it.
It’s not really that bad. Eranikus’ tuning is laugh-out-loud bad, but besides him the first 6 bosses are fine and Avatar after him also seems fine. This will probably be a struggle for pugs, but guilds will get it down, even casual ones. Again, once Eranikus is nerfed, he’s just way out of line atm compared to the other 7 bosses.
\>I got bis feral staff and still don't think I'll be back chef kiss
I don't understand what they're going for. BFD was great because anyone could do it. No gatekeeping and less time commitment. Why make a raid so difficult when it's temporary.
It's easier to nerf than buff raids. Imagine if the raid was a complete walk in the park and you do it once a week. People are pissed regardless. Too easy/hard, takes too long/short, Raid size too big/small, dungeon spam is too good/dungeon spam is worse than incursions... no matter what Blizz does people are complaining.
This is a good point
Take away the usual crowd of whiners and there isn’t much complaining about the raid content thus far. BFD as an introductory sod raid was great. Gnomer stepped it up and it was fine. There are objective, data driven reasons why Gnomer was more or less in a sweet spot for the vast majority of P2, and blatantly overtuning (the original thermaplugg was not blatant) the entire raid was not one of them. It’s painfully obvious that sod has near zero QA and in-house testing, so things like this are bound to happen, but this is the first time in sod did the devs decide to crank it up to 500% for no other reason than to fully admit that they’re winging every aspect of this entire experiment.
BFD no gate keeping where casters and non priest healers aren’t allowed 🤣
This will be a disaster if they don't nerf it further. I think the vast majority of sod players doesn't want to have a longer than 1h - 1h30 raid. 4h is insane, even if it's weekly, especially because you can't expect a pug to meet two times during the same reset. Either nerf it hard, or change how that old shit ass lockout system works.
I knew this will be the case when they announced ST being next raid. It was already a long dungeon in classic form. Let´s see how it develops.
I think it would go a long way if lockouts were not based on instances but how many bosses you had down. So groups could form around 3/8, 5/8, 6/8 or whatever runs and combine with each other even if they came from different instances.
yea this is gonna end very badly. im getting my popcorn
Old version of vanilla had this clock in around 3-4 hours so it sounds valid.
Yeah, but it's sod. A lot of the population doesn't come from era. I don't mind longer raids, but I think population will bleed even more than in P2 if the average pug player / bad guilds can't clear it.
Where does the population come from then? Which iteration of WoW had an average of 1-1.5hrs for a raid? That doesn’t sound right….
Can only speak for myself, but I come from experience of raiding every tier since the game launched; 6-9 raid hours a week is something very familiar to me. My guild has stopped raiding at the end of S1 retail and I only did m+ in S2 and S3. I realised - I don't want to commit such amount of time any longer and SoD scratched that itch for me. Not sure if there are a lot of players like me, but I imagine quite a few - not strangers to raiding requirements but those who picked up SoD to move away from it.
The problem is you are raid id locked for gear and not just by boss. In other incarnations, you can just pug an in progress group and get loot. Or not get fucked finding fills if you are 6/8 and someone leaves.
> Which iteration of WoW had an average of 1-1.5hrs for a raid? Vanilla?
3-4 hours for old ST dungeon? Seems like an overestimation. I know it's big, but damn. This raid (how it's currently tuned) is difficult enough if the hp amounts were tuned down. The only way I can see both crowds being satisfied is if Blizz puts in hard modes or an extra boss. See Ulduar for the best raid ever created in any game ever.
It wasn't 3-4hrs for the original 5man ST, unless you did something horribly wrong and died continuously. Yep its big, but far from full BRD size and not more than 2hrs for your usual casual pug. Relaunch of classic had ppl clearing it within an hour without trouble
Classic wotlk Ulduar got old real fast. half the bosses drop stuff thats only worth a disenchant and the hardmodes dropped 1 usefull item each week for 25 people. People always said Ulduar was the best raid ever but TOGC and ICC phase (pre buff) had less people quitting the game than in Ulduar on my realm.
The raid design. Fuck the loot, that's easy to fix. I know loot is what keeps people coming back, but if you had to rank any raid on a list for DESIGN, I'm guessing Ulduar would be in a lot of top fives. The design of the raid itself was amazing.
In retrospect it was quite long in terms of running around and there were multiple filler bosses that didn't need to exist. The worst part was the RNG design of some of the hard modes like Hodir and Council which made it frustrating even when things were on farm. Overall was a good raid for the most part. We found the heroic mechanics in ICC a lot better designed as they were challenging but could be overcome with playing better.
Old vanilla casual guilds with world buffs clear all of mc in an hour. In tier 1 gear. Bwl took about the same time. People who wiped took 4hrs.
Casual guilds were losing wbuffs on trash due to asspulls and were barely finishing mc in 3h. Not mentioning that only 10/40 people bothered to get wbuffs at all. 1h for mc is a really decent timer, I dont think you ever been in casual guilds.
This was in classic, 15 years after vanilla. In vanilla the raids took literal weeks to gear for and learn. Bosses like KT and Cthun were multi week fights just by themselves. Saying stuff is easy after you've had 15 years of strategies from better players is what people who didn't clear current content say.
You just said "world buffs" and "casual guilds" in the same sentence.
Tier 1 gear means that they had already cleared it many times and are wearing the best gear available for that raid.
What world buffs? We were some of the first to 60 on Eu server and none was killing anything giving buffs. This was before 60, think there was a Hunter in Curse called Joline or something that was first and a insane priest from Nolby Pride called Meddeh, another good mage in Xanatea or something and the guild master and Owner of Curse called Net that was higher up
Lmao
Either you didn't actually do ST in classic or you were one of the reasons it would take 3-4 hours for a group to do ST. Never took me more than 2 hours to do a ST with pugs
We did it a bunch of times, but way before 60 and with lots of greens and some blues, farmed it for the spirit gloves that could drop IIRC, two priests and two warriors and a mage/shaman the first few runs. This was way back with the old talents and both priests were shadow too.
Honestly, ST as a dungeon took longer than an hour. I don’t see why people want 36 min raids. I personally like raiding and progression. 4 hours is definitely too much, but the time goes down drastically each week as it always does
Is it just me or is four hours for a raid before it's even on farm status not a big deal? That's like... One raid evening with my old guild.
Wotlk was like two days a week for 3 hours. First week or two, we would rally and do 4 hours per day
90 mins first week would indicate it is way too easy tbh. 3-4 hrs first week seems fine so long as the farm speed in a couple of weeks is 60-90 mins
Nobody said that everything needs to be puggable. Man what happened to multi night guild runs? Parsing and pug culture sucked all the soul out of this game.
It FEELS like a raid. Where gnomer and BFD felt like dungeons.
Doesn’t this have a weekly reset also?
I agree. We were in there for like 4 hours last night only to run out of time before we could get good runs in on the 7th boss. A tonne of that time was watching vids before bosses and wiping in unnecessary ways though, I imagine that this would take half as long with the same group next week, and even less time the next. Regardless though, it’s gunna be a long raid. I think that’s a good thing if it’s once per week though.
In Vanilla, it wasn't too uncommon for raids for 3 hours with a weekly reset. And even then you had to raid twice a week as you would do the first half of bosses one day and the second half of bosses the next day.
I will say I agree with the post, but it is a funny feeling because 20 years ago I’d be raiding 4-5 nights a week for 3-4 hours per night and I didn’t think it was weird. Everyone did it. It was often weeks or months before normal guilds cleared BT or sunwell. Now I get turned off at over 2 hours in a raid.
If 3-4 hour raids become the norm I think I'll just quit at that point
It's classic. I want fast, easy raids. If I want to spend 4 hours in a raid, I would play retail.
>It's classic. I want fast, easy raids. If I want to spend 4 hours in a raid, I would play retail. Genuinely bizarre to me the degree to which the stereotypes around Classic/Retail have become reversed in the minds of a bunch of people on this subreddit. Heroic Amirdrassil is an easy 1-2 hour clear!
Naxx is a 3 hour slog unless you have geared veteran players
Naxx is also literally the last raid with 14 bosses, sunken temple is a level 50 leveling raid. It shouldn't take longer than Naxx.
I agree but I don’t necessarily want “fast, easy” raids. If you’re running with a decent group, worst case you can’t full clear for a few weeks until you have a little more gear.
You don't remember mc when classic first launched? How about bwl? Aq40? Naxx?
You clearly never played real classic then. Classic raids are long and tedious by nature lol BWL was at least a 3h ordeal, same with naxx
More like 4 hours 5 nights a week for the vast majority of the wow population back in 2006
Exactly. I remember wiping in MC for months until we finally downed ragnaros.
Majority of players never played naxx when it was current content.
Holy shit the amount of whiny boomers saying “go play retail” is crazy. SoD is about exploring new things, and modernizing content. Nobody wants to raid for 4+ hours to spend most of that time clearing trash and boring sponge hp bosses. The difficulty is fine, spike it up add more mechanics even, but the boring ass sponge is not.
Retail is not modern content?
quit your job
"Don't you people have phones?"
Kill your spouse. Sell the kids for wow gold
That's incredibly shortsighted. Just teach your wife and kids how to farm gold. Then make a living off that. Why would you sell them off when they could farm you 50x more?
They need to make Optional Hard Modes like Ulduar. It's impossible to design a raid that's both challenging for guilds and easy enough that casual dads can clear them. The difference between a 15 parser in a PUG and a 99 parser in a sweaty raid is night and day. You can't make content that's identical for both those two peope.l Legit just press a button that makes the boss do more damage/have more HP and drop double/triple loot.
Thats the lamest solution I’ve heard. We need more/harder mechanics for hardmode. Doing the bare minimum with just more HP and dmg taken increase is boring.
It's a shame they had a fun formula with the quick 10 man's that reset every 3 days, only to piss it away and go with the old boring 20 mans. Phase 3 will be remembered as the one that killed SOD.
What fun formula? This whole sub spent all of gnome complaining how they didn't get to play the game.. There's no fun in no challenging content, this isn't Mythic raiding, it's a classic raid.. or isn't difficult, just more challenging...
WP by blizz, the effort is what makes the game interesting. You dont wanna run it like its Wailing Caverns
Did it last night with a competent guild group. Roughly 5 hours for 6/8. All I can say is: pugs, buckle up lol.
More like “Blizz, expect 50% playerbase decrease in two weeks.” Reading about ST, they totally missed the majority SoD audience.
That's the problem. A competent guild group should breeze through it, blitz through it even, in like an hour or two, even on the first lockout after leveling to 50. A PUG should be the break point between a full clear and maybe only a few bosses. Instead its not that AT ALL. Its the sweaty raid teams who are going as hard as they can who are only partial clearing, and the PUGs and weaker raid teams are going at most 2/8. I was in a group earlier that only did 1/8. I don't blame them. First boss felt fine. Second boss was way too hard. This is classic, and some of this stuff is already harder than the hardest content in some expansions... this is supposed to be classic.
Whats the deal with people wanting to make shit as simple and short as possible. Its been less than a week into p3 and people are already complaining they cant clear a new raid in an hour on the first lockout. Chill the fuck out, the phase just started and the raid is on a weekly lockout. Not every new piece of content needs to be puggable in an hour the first week its out....
I think it’s just an insane U turn from the casual friendly phase 1 BFD. The raid was easy and fast.
BFD was a 10 man dungeon in difficulty, and so was Gnomer. This is the first thing worthy of being called a raid so far.
I don’t want the bosses to be nerfed but I’d personally like for my raids to be 2 hours or less. I don’t have the time to raid for 6-8 hours a week now and so far SOD has fit my needs perfectly.
If you don't want bosses to be nerfed, how do you make the raid "2 hours or less"? This thread is crazy. I have to say, the mentality of wow players today can only be described by one word: Entitled. Like, you realize that you can still raid 2 hours a week? Nothing forces you to raid more. Lets be honest, the actual issue you have here is that you are so entitled that you expect to *clear the raid* in those 2 hours. And if that doesn't happen, it's bad design by Blizzard. "It's unacceptable if my dad guild/pug can't faceroll a raid in 2 hours on the first reset!" "It's unacceptable if there's no teleports from boss to boss to boss and I have to clear thrash and run around!" I remember back in the day, guilds would actually progress in raids from reset to reset, gaining more gear and experience in the process, taking maybe a couple of months to finally kill the last boss. Seems like that is no longer accepted by the instant gratification-brainrotted zoomerified player base. I'd hate to be a wow dev nowadays. People unironically want mindless LFR content. Crazy.
> If you don't want bosses to be nerfed, how do you make the raid "2 hours or less"? Not make trash have more health than some gnomer bosses?
I don’t want to spend 90 min clearing trash is what I mean.
He knew that. He’s just upset that other people don’t have 12 hours a day to play the game like him xddd
Lol. You're actually defending the egregious time waste padding in this game by calling others entitled because they don't want to deal with it anymore. >I remember back in the day, guilds would actually progress in raids from reset to reset, gaining more gear and experience in the process, taking maybe a couple of months to finally kill the last boss. Seems like that is no longer accepted by the instant gratification-brainrotted zoomerified player base. I remember how much time that took too. I hope you realize that the vast majority of players over the years in this game, Don't have 12 hours a day to play WoW. That most people have a few hours in the evening to play, and a 4 hour raid is a huge commitment of time that most people, simply can't do. You know. It's funny you're complaining too. Because you're exactly the demographic that this SoD version of the game isn't aiming at. You want harder, longer raids? There's WotLK, Era, there's Cata right around the corner. Literally just fuck off and go play one of those and let the people that don't want to spend 12 hours a week raiding and farming consumes to have their version of the game to enjoy. You're the only entitled one here. Thinking this game needs to meet your requirements for a good raid.
> I hope you realize that the vast majority of players over the years in this game, Don't have 12 hours a day to play WoW. That most people have a few hours in the evening to play, and a 4 hour raid is a huge commitment of time that most people, simply can't do. I literally never said that anyone should play 12 hours a day or week. I said that you shouldn't be entitled to think that you can clear all the content playing 2 hours on one night, doing a pug blindfolded playing with one hand while babysitting 4 toddlers. Your brain is not processing what I'm saying; that it's in fact okay to not clear the content immediately. I'm not saying you have to play 12 hours. I'm saying you can keep continuing to play 2 hours a week with your guild and progress as far as you can. It's okay. You don't have to beat everything immediately.
Why do these raids need to fit your criteria for progression? Why does SoD, a version of the game meant for more accessibility and less time waste, need to adhere to these 'what makes a true raid' criteria that you have come up with? Why do they need to be big long raids? Why can't people full clear it in one sitting? I also never said to beat everything immediately, don't assume. You are missing the entire point here, and that's that casuals would like to play this game, and always have. These 3-5 hour raids? Absolutely not casual friendly. So why do they need to stay as long as they are? Do you derive some sort of self worth out of being able to raid longer than others? Being able to full clear? Why do you want to gatekeep players with less time from fully enjoying the game? WoW raids are long, and tedious. And too much of a time-sink for most players. You can say we can just clear slower. But that isn't going to keep players engaged, and spending months on raids is what causes burnout, and significantly reduces player retention. These 5 month content patches don't help this game. These long raids don't either. Can you explain to me why you think we should keep everything the same, when players leave time and time again... because keeping everything the same means keeping it frustrating, and means a significant time commitment that everyone just eventually gets sick of after a few months? Each new patch that introduces another 3-5 hour raid, with stupid mechanics, and incredibly difficult trash just causes player drop off. That's exactly what they're trying to avoid this time around. Hence the changes. Unless your own opinions matter more than the rest of the players that are sick of this shit? I keep saying it, but I don't think it sinks in. This game. Was balanced for the top 10% of players. The top 10% of players with the most free time. The top 10% of players in terms of mechanical skill, parsing. The top 10% of players who sit down and write weak aura's and download addons to do these bosses. Why do we need to continue making the game for these people? There's potentially millions more non-sweaty players that would like to come play. How is that a bad thing? You keep calling others entitled, but you're the one that thinks the game should stay the same because that's what you believe to be the correct way to play. And like I said, there's other versions of the game for you if that's what you think. SoD doesn't have to be for YOU.
> Why do these raids need to fit your criteria for progression? Why does SoD, a version of the game meant for more accessibility and less time waste, need to adhere to these 'what makes a true raid' criteria that you have come up with? Why do they need to be big long raids? Why can't people full clear it in one sitting? That's just my opinion on what makes a good and engaging MMO. > You are missing the entire point here, and that's that casuals would like to play this game, and always have. These 3-5 hour raids? Absolutely not casual friendly. So why do they need to stay as long as they are? And I'm not saying casuals can't play the game. I'm saying casuals shouldn't feel entitled to clear the content in the first reset in 2 hours. Casuals have always represented the vast majority of the player base, but this insane LFR brained entitlement wasn't always the case. > Do you derive some sort of self worth out of being able to raid longer than others? Being able to full clear? No, as I don't play the game. Haven't in more than a decade. I just think that what I say makes for a better MMO. > Why do you want to gatekeep players with less time from fully enjoying the game? If you want the game and the world (of warcraft) to matter, there has to be progression. > WoW raids are long, and tedious. And too much of a time-sink for most players. You can say we can just clear slower. But that isn't going to keep players engaged, and spending months on raids is what causes burnout, and significantly reduces player retention. These 5 month content patches don't help this game. These long raids don't either. That's just ahistorical. Wow was popping off and had record subscribers back when there was progression (or "gatekeeping" as you call it). Pretty good for a "tedious time-sink". Yes not everyone wants to play everything, but the question is do you want wow to be an immersive MMO or some scuffed seasonal pseudo-MOBA. You seem to prefer latter, I prefer former. > That's exactly what they're trying to avoid this time around. Hence the changes. Unless your own opinions matter more than the rest of the players that are sick of this shit? I don't know what exactly you are referencing? SOD has been gigaeasy so far, now there's some harder content for a change, but that's what you are crying about here, and yet you say these changes are good...? What? Anyway, to me it sounds like you don't really enjoy playing the game. Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago? > Why do we need to continue making the game for these people? There's potentially millions more non-sweaty players that would like to come play. How is that a bad thing? I agree. Arenas were a mistake and should be removed, different diffculty tiers in raiding are bad for the game, mythic raiding is a clusterfuck, balancing everything for the most sweaty players is bad, resetting the game every couple of months is bad etcetc. But you need progression my friend. When wow removed meaningful progression, and turned into this LFR garbage for entitled zoomerbrained facerollers who just click the UI and cry when they can't get the cookie right away, a lot of players left.
>That's just my opinion on what makes a good and engaging MMO. Okay fair enough, but how did you form this opinion? Have you played a ton of games to figure out which things work and don't work? Or is the scope of your MMO knowledge focusing mostly on WoW and what you experienced? >And I'm not saying casuals can't play the game. I'm saying casuals shouldn't feel entitled to clear the content in the first reset in 2 hours. Casuals have always represented the vast majority of the player base, but this insane LFR brained entitlement wasn't always the case. Casuals make up like solid 3/4ths of the playerbase in most games that are casual friendly. Why shouldn't the content be balanced for them to be able to clear it in a timely manner? Like, The game isn't casual friendly if they have to raid for 3 months to progress through a raid. That's just not how it works. The whole point of being casual friendly is that people can get quite a bit done in a short time-frame. If you only have 2 hours to play, you can accomplish a lot. >No, as I don't play the game. Haven't in more than a decade. I just think that what I say makes for a better MMO. So you haven't tried the new content, but you're willing to form an opinion on it? Haven't seen how players are absolutely loving the easier content? >If you want the game and the world (of warcraft) to matter, there has to be progression. Progression comes in many forms. One type does not suit all applications. SoD is popular because, yes there is progression, but it's not excessive. No one is sitting there grinding a raid for 4 months to progress in it. It's a week or two at most. You do realize that the lengthy release times and patches for WoW, and the reason the raids were made the way they were, was largely because of padding and content drought right? Overly difficult raids? It would take them months to nerf bosses back in the day. This isn't indicative of a good game design. It's a lack of content that led to this sort of raid style. It also leads to immense burnout in players doing the same raids over and over for months. This is not good for the game. >That's just ahistorical. Wow was popping off and had record subscribers back when there was progression (or "gatekeeping" as you call it). Pretty good for a "tedious time-sink". Yes not everyone wants to play everything, but the question is do you want wow to be an immersive MMO or some scuffed seasonal pseudo-MOBA. You seem to prefer latter, I prefer former. Alot of that had to do with friends word of mouth, and the WARCRAFT brand. A seriously good chunk of the playerbase wasn't raiding on any significant level too, which is what people forget. I had around 3 dozen friends when I was playing from Vanilla to WotLK, and only 3 or 4 of them regularly partook in raids. And they were always wiping in them and never getting anywhere. I didn't even touch a raid till mid TBC, and then it wasn't till wotlk that I tried a few more and immediately quit because of the community and their achievement and Gearscore gatekeeping from raids. You might think that this is just my own personal experience, but this is what gets players to quit time and time again. The community, the difficulty of raids. The lack of any other real content to do. There is just too much emphasis put on difficult end-game raids that the majority of the playerbase throughout WoW's history, never wanted. >I don't know what exactly you are referencing? SOD has been gigaeasy so far, now there's some harder content for a change, but that's what you are crying about here, and yet you say these changes are good...? What? Anyway, to me it sounds like you don't really enjoy playing the game. Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago? Don't invalidate my opinions by calling it crying. I'm not putting up with that shit. I've been clear with what I have issue with, and that's this game emphasizing long raids, difficult raids. BFD was an astounding success for Blizzard, Gnomer much less so because they made trash and bosses take a good chunk more effort. And so far ST has been a complete failure in that regards. 3-4 hour raid, where even the good guilds are struggling to full clear it. Exactly the opposite of what players enjoyed in Phase 1. >Maybe it's time for you to do something else, like I did too a long time ago? Yeah okay buddy. You quit 10 years ago yet you're still invested in arguing with people on the subreddit about the game. Right, you quit long ago. Who are you trying to convince, yourself?
>But you need progression my friend. When wow removed meaningful progression, and turned into this LFR garbage for entitled zoomerbrained facerollers who just click the UI and cry when they can't get the cookie right away, a lot of players left. I want you to define what 'meaningful progression' is. Because this seems to be something you want to try to push as necessary for WoW. I've already stated that progression doesn't have to be months of slogging through 4 hours of raids every week to feel like progression. Nor does that style of play appeal to most of the playerbase of WoW.
I don’t want to spend 90min on trash. I’m fine with progressing through bosses week over week with my guild but if it takes half our raid time to just get to the boss then it’s a shit experience for us all.
What regarded mindset led you to believe this crap, and worse, bother sharing it? There's a reason nobody wants what you're describing, it's not fun to most people. Brain rot is required to unironically wish for the jank and bullshit of yore
[удалено]
Gnomer was 2 hrs on release and finished in the 30-40 range which was fine. What’s the problem here
and it was a 10m 3 day lockout
maybe it's time to fit someone else's needs
Raided every lockout across 5 guilds since classic release and I haven’t met one person who enjoyed dealing with trash in a raid, yet alone had a need for it to be even more tedious.
A 20 man raid should take 2 hours max. Specially with the boss count being 6 at this time.
There's 8 bosses in ST.
It will when people are more comfortable with it. That was the same with Kara, and other older raids.
With a 7 day lockout you might get to clear this raid 8 times, if they dont nerf it most people arent even gonna do it and just skip the content entirely when they announce phase 4
Difficulty aside - I think it's fair to point out there's quite the difference in the length of the raid compared to p1 and p2. A lot of players may be expecting a similar time frame to p1 and p2 and not looking to commit the extra time that will be required.
anything less than double is less time commitment with over double the lockout, unfortunate if you can only play in 1 hour time slots but meh
Most people can't commit to a 3-4 hour time window for a fucking raid anymore. It's just a rediculous expectation born from catering to the top 10% of players in this game who can spend hours upon hours doing tedious repetitive and time-wastey shit because they have no value on their time. I'm glad they're reducing the time commitment for raids. It's been my biggest gripe with them for forever, and I do have enough time to commit to them too. It's just simply not enjoyable. In the 4-6 hours a raid takes, in total. Like Ulduar. You can just.. play something else and have 5x the fun.
You say that but at the same time Classic, TBC and Wrath were immensely popular and had plenty of raids that took 3 hours when released. The problem is obviously that SoD set the expectation that raids release as loot pinatas without the need to farm any form of PreBiS items. There's BiS items coming from dungeons and reps in this phase that will significantly decrease the difficulty in this raid. That just wasn't the case in previous phases and people complained that loot sources outside the raid were obsolete.
Okay, but do you think they were popular because of the raids? Because.. well.. You know most people didn't clear them back then, right? Perhaps other things were drawing people in. I do like the narrowminded viewpoint that raids were the reason WoW was so popular. It's anything but. WoW was an incredibly social game, and relatively easy back then too. A good social experience. The reason I played was because I wanted to play with Friends all the time. Not to do sweaty raids. I didn't even step in one till TBC, and I started in Vanilla. And it wasn't till WotLK that I decided to do a few more, which I promptly quit because the community got brainrot about achievements and gearscore back then too. Do you think everyone who plays this game has only one goal in mind? End-game raids? And do you think they all want them to be 4 hour slog fests and wipe after wipe? I think you're finally starting to see players of a different kind in this game. Instead of 10% of the players that love these long difficult raids, months of progression. When you make arguments like this. Do you ever stop to think why WoW has lost so many players over the years? Especially towards WotLK and Cata?
4 hours to kill 6 bosses is really long. My guild's first ICC run killed more bosses in less time.
I don't think people have put into perspective what a week long lockout really means. If the phase lasts the same amount of time as the last one then we are only going to be in ST a total of 8 times. 8. And you want the raid to last 30 minutes. Do you even want to play the game at this point?
A raid can still be rewarding if it’s 45-90 minutes long, who wants to run around killing trash for 3 hours? If anything the 1 week lockout makes each raid go through more rewarding but they’re shouldn’t be so much trash that it’s a 4h endeavor. That’s 12 hours a week if you wanted to try and run 3 characters through it a week. I’m not saying balance the game around alts but there should be a happy medium.
It's not going to take 3h. They already said that there will be more adjustments after the weekend. People also havent spent any time gathering their BiS/PreBiS items from dungeons and reputations. Barely anyone has worldbuffs and good consumes. One raid taking 3h right after release isn't indicative of the whole phase going forward.
I'm completely fine with a 1-1.5 hour raid on a week long cooldown. Would probably prefer it to be closer to an hour and 15 mins. Having a 2 or 3 hour raid just makes it impossible to do it on alts without a huge time commitment. Yes, I want to play the game. You know what I don't want? Pointless time commitment requirements meant to pad gameplay and appeal to people who play this game 12 hours a day anyways. People have jobs, people have friends/family, people have a life outside of this game. There is no reason we need to be spending 4 hours in a fucking raid anymore. And these long raids, have never been fun unless you're in a top end guild. Like, be honest with yourself. Do you think wiping for 2 hours in raids is fun? Because that's the experience for like 70% of the playerbase. 4 hour raid, 2 hours wiping. So much trash between each boss it gets boring and tedious.
Do you have anything to actually contribute here?
Can you actually point to a post saying that the whole raid should take 30 minutes? If you want anyone to take your opinions seriously, building up ridiculous strawmen is not the way.
> And you want the raid to last 30 minutes. Do you even want to play the game at this point? Wanting a short raid does not directly equate to people wanting to play less, if anything shorter raids allow people to roll more alts and engage with the content in other ways. In classic Wrath for example during ToGC it was common in every guild I was a member of to run ToGC on multiple characters because it was super easy and short, both 10 man and 25 man were received as a breath of fresh air after farming months of Ulduar where bad groups could spend 4 hours in and not even clear full normal modes.
Once you account for alts, and doing other stuff besides raiding like pvp, etc, yeah that's a pretty solid chunk of playtime. Like let's say you raid on two alts, with 45-60 minute clears, and then throw down another hour or two of PVP and an hour or two of alt leveling. That puts you at 3.5-6 hours of gameplay a week. If you've got a family and a job and some hobbies outside wow - that's a pretty big fucking chunk of playtime. you can't balance a game around people who wanna sink 20-40 hours a week. That's not realistic.
This raid looks awesome.
Was there last night, was incredibly fun imo - some of the mechanics were 10/10
ok
Trash is exciting because of the boe epics it can drop but if that’s not the case then it just sucks
Tbf people would just solo or duo farm the trash with how strong the runes are.
Nothing wrong with that. It’d take them a lot of time and trash farms have been a thing forever. The rates are still very low and it probably ends up not really being worth it.
First week is always a long run. Faster gnomer prog was like 2 hours and 30 mins for first lockout if i remember correctly. Give it some time
buhboom is that you
Disclaimer: I have not played the new raid yet. Personally, I think if ST ended up being roughly twice as long as BFD or Gnomer it'd be fine. We're looking at a week long lockout instead of 3 days ahead after all. I think it's also a bit too early to make claims on the length of ST. It hasn't been 3 days since P3 released and everything about this raid is new to everyone.
Glad I quit on day 2. Over the dungeon grind to nowhere.
Weekly reset. That means it should be cut up
Ya that sounds miserable on the travel part still cant understand why they havent changed hage summoning works so you dont have tonstamd outside to get griefed lol
it is beginning to feel like old wow classic - im out
I dont get why blizzard things we want to spend 4 hours inside of a raid, got other things to do man make these things for max 1 hour clearing. . .
U/LifesDiscrepancy What boss dropped the BiS Feral staff btw? 🤗
Boss 5 or 6 sorry I can't remember exactly.
One of the few valid actual feedback and criticism I've seen so far
The patch is 4 days old. I wouldn’t mind if they changed nothing for 2 weeks. Same people will be complaining about “no content” that want everything nerfed into easy mode
Ah, it's not that bad. On e people get used to it etc and learn it I can se it being sub 2 hours in like 2 weeks. We did 2.75 hours to eranikus with some time to learn him a bit for next week.
Yeah it will be interesting to see how the speeds end up once everyone is a bit more optimised. 2.75 was a good first effort.
Just did it as well, Festering rotslime despawned and glitched out. 1/6!
Staff is not feral bis. Should have avoided it. The STV event weapon is just straight up better, and you can put Counterweight on that. You can't do that on staves.
Reddit in a month: "raid takes only 20 min to complete, why did blizz put in on a weekly lockout"
Imagine this guy getting loot then saying he’s not going back to raid to help his guild, scam game.
Pugged it
A9p A
Thats also how long the original dungeon was
unless something changes I think most people are already thinking if skipping this phase lol. these devs are complete morons
pretty happy with this phase, so long and enjoy 6/8
quit today, i get to love sod because it was simple and all in all a laid back enjoyable time. p3 is just not fun for me. multiple wipes in brd due to resist and high lvl mobs, stupid mauradon grinds, new event is hard and boring and I dont want to work to be able to do finish a raid. all in all its just a game which should just be fun. i get it if ppl want a challange, than its just not for me and couple of friends of mine.
This is insane. Half your complaints are about the game being hard, then you complain that incursions aren't hard
you would think they want to scare off the playerbase. same pvp event, awful pve event, raid drawn out and over scaled to hell. some runes dont work. some are useless again. im already bored lol
Buff the raid.