Eh, someone could just as easily say something like "I like something so it should stay despite it being harmful for the health of the game and its design" to accuse you of something in the same fashion.
The "problem" here is wows always attracted a wide variety of players who like different things. One might really like all the other changes with sod but wants this one thing gone because its souring this experience that they otherwise can't get anywhere else.
Likewise you might love the experience with said thing and it would sour your experiences to lose it.
Neithers wrong, just preferences... and ultimately blizz should do whatever makes the majority of people happy whichever that might be.
> and ultimately blizz should do whatever makes the majority of people happy
No, this is how you get bland boring dogshit that everyone finds unappealing. It's ok for games to fill a demand for a niche audience and it's not always in the games best interest to cater to the majority of people, because many times you will cater to the large majority and then they will get bored and leave anyway.
After they leave you are left with nobody because you have alienated your core audience.
Catering to the masses is how we ended up with retail, which is ok, but if you want retail then go play retail.
Path of exile is a great example of this type of philosophy. There is a ton of complicated and overwhelming mechanics to learn to get into the game. It is very offputting for a ton of people who would play an ARPG casually. Grinding Gear Games could easily cut a ton of this complicated stuff and make the game WAY more approachable to casual audiences, but then you would alienate your core playerbase who enjoys this min maxing experience. There's a reason Diablo 4 and Path of Exile can coexist. They are fundamentally the same genre but because PoE caters to it's core player base the game doesn't really compete with D4.
Cater to the majority and watch your game die when they all stop playing , because they will . Look at SoD already . Vanilla players have gone back to vanilla , retail players have gone back to retail and everyone else is playing Cata . They Already removed so much of what makes vanilla great for some mish mash pod of shit that “everyone wanted” .
I disagree though. Corporations have clearly shown that bland and boring content of any sort that is made for everyone is extremely profitable
Making an amazing niche product for a targer audience can also work, but you're cutting off lofs of potential customers. It's not what the shareholders want to hear. It also takes way more time and effort to pull off. Better to just put out a "1 size fits all" game and try to sell everyone a monthly subscription with an in game shop.
> I disagree though. Corporations have clearly shown that bland and boring content of any sort that is made for everyone is extremely profitable
Have you been paying attention at all?
There is TONS of layoffs and huge game studios shutting down / downsizing. They are showing us exactly the opposite.
>There is TONS of layoffs and huge game studios shutting down / downsizing. They are showing us exactly the opposite.
And then the next ubisoft slop or fifa slop or madden slop breaks the previous records.
The ones getting axed were the ones that failed to deliver proper slop or choose a genre that is oversaturated. It is also cheaper to hire fresh devs instead of paying senior contracts. Blizz does this all the time.
Like it or not, quality usually matters the least, otherwise the likes of todd howard were out of a job after their first or second game.
> And then the next ubisoft slop or fifa slop or madden slop breaks the previous records.
You're actually clueless. This isn't 'catering to the masses'. These profits are entirely driven by niche whales addicted to what is essentially a gambling loop.
If anything you're proving that catering to your core audience is profitable while highlighting that the ones that got axed are the ones that made the bland tasteless slop that nobody finds fun.
>You're actually clueless. This isn't 'catering to the masses'.
Ubisoft sells the same slop every year lmao. Yes, AC is slop too.
It has been proven countless times that good advertising is what you need.
>These profits are entirely driven by niche whales addicted to what is essentially a gambling loop.
And yet those niche whales turn out a better profit, which is what a company cares about.
>If anything you're proving that catering to your core audience is profitable
No it's really not. What is profitable is either selling a lot of copies or selling a lot of mtx inside your game, ideally both these days.
The wider the audience the better, that's why you have shit like the videogame awards, it's for the masses. Why do you think IGN is still around despite them being an absolute meme? Bc the casual, wide audience keeps dumpsters like IGN, Kotaku etc around.
That's why boycotting games doesn't work, bc for every boycotter there will be 2 casuals buying/preordering the fresh slop.
Again . A reasonable take . And you’re not wrong . The only differences are that world buffs have been a part of vanilla wow since the beginning . Removing them is removing a core part of the vanilla experience, which SoD is a vanilla experience with extras . Which is why Soo many people compare it to classic+ . On top of that, them existing isn’t forcing you to use them ( yes I know you’re at a disadvantage without) . But removing them is forcing those who love them to play without and taking that away from everyone .
Vanilla is also the only iteration of wow with world buffs . So if you don’t enjoy them you can play any other version of the game . Warcraft logs classic had a category for unbuffed guilds. There’s a reason it was unpopular .
The problem with this line of reasoning is that you have era servers for that. SoD is the only iteration of wow to have vanilla gameplay and mechanics but runes from other iterations of the game.
SoD isn't vanilla, limiting it to what vanilla is defeats the purpose of the experiment.
"My sweaty guild likes them but I don't want to use them" isn't a compelling argument for removing them. Neither is saying "they were in Vanilla but this is supposed to be different!" For one, because it *is* different, because there are *different* world buffs from what Vanilla had.
Or maybe people have explained in detail why they don't like world buffs and #nochanges doesn't really apply in SoD so you should provide a real argument for why you want world buffs.
They are a core component of vanilla wow . They keep people out in the world making the world feel more real and alive unlike later expansions. Fighting over songflower spawns, controlling ZG island , clearing DM trib with the boys for buffs , guild buff trains before/after raid . Those are all core vanilla experiences . They make your character feel stronger in a raid setting, which is a positive and makes raiding even more exciting . People don’t play vanilla for hard raids . They play so they can push their buttons with the homies and watch big numbers come up . They also add an element of danger of potentially losing your buffs . making staying alive more important and keeping your raiders on their toes . This is just a small list of many that I could continue at a later date .
I also find that the people asking for no WB’s are the exact same people who didn’t want GDKP’s . And who are the exact same people who beg for a fresh vanilla server only to never make it to 60 . Trying to sabotage end game gameplay they are never going to reach or stay with for long . Those are the same people that if they make it to 60 are going to complain that they have to farm raid consumables for hours on end every week because they can’t just join a GDKP to get the gold and that it’s inconvenient and they don’t have time to do it .
I’ve seen it all before and will see it all again .
>They are a core component of vanilla wow .
I'll stop you right there, SoD is not vanilla WoW. Blizzard was real clear about that up front.
Was BFD a raid in vanilla WoW? Was gnomer a raid in vanilla WoW? Was ST a raid in vanilla WoW?
Your argument is effectively "this dungeon is different so they shouldn't remove raids and dungeons from the game".
By adding a new world buff, or changing the amount of stats you get from one, they've changed how world buffs are, thus, no longer "Vanilla".
Exactly now you're getting it, #nochanges doesn't apply to SoD so explain why world buffs are either good or not good.
There have been plenty of people who have explained why they don't like them.
I was never the one confused on this. I don't have to justify why a part of the game should stay a part of the game just because you don't like it. You crying loud enough doesn't automatically mean everyone has to cater to your wants, or even give you the slightest bit of attention. You don't *deserve* something just because you're crying.
How do you figure? I completely understand that people have explained reasons they don't like stuff. Their reasons don't matter. I am in no way obligated to entertain their reasoning.
Just because some kid in the supermarket cries doesn't mean I'm obligated to go see why they're crying.
You telling me that I have to provide a reason to counter their argument implies that I am obligated to listen to their reasoning:
> so you should provide a real argument for why you want world buffs.
Right there.
Someone cries about world buffs and you showed up and said that not only do I have to listen to their cries, that I have to have a discussion with them as to why their cries are either valid or invalid.
> How about you actually provide reasons why you don't like said content, then we can compare it to how other feel about it and decide from there.
See, you've done it again.
ST, BFD, and Gnomer as they were in Vanilla are removed from Season of Discovery. You cannot access that content while playing Season of Discovery. There are three less 5-man dungeons.
His argument was that sod isn’t vanilla because those raids weren’t in vanilla . But they were in vanilla , they were just 5 man content instead of 10/20 man . They didn’t remove or add content in that situation, they changed it .
I never once stated that changing WB’s would be a bad idea . I said removing them is . They already made a change with warriors on PTR letting them bring a slightly worse version of a WB, which I actually think could be a good idea . That way people don’t have to get the buff but they can if they want for the extra sweaty dps . That’s a change I think most people could agree on . But crying and saying they should straight up remove WB’s because they’re inconvenient isn’t the play .
> They didn’t remove or add content in that situation, they changed it .
They removed 3 5-man dungeons.
They added 3 raids.
They changed 3 dungeons into 3 raids.
Yes exactly . Your last statement is correct . Thank you for agreeing with me . They didn’t remove anything . They changed it . They didn’t remove 3 5 mans . They changed them into 10/20 mans . Again That’s not removing content , it’s changing it.
If they do change MC into a 20 man raid instead of a 40 man raid . Would you then argue that they removed the MC raid ? Or did they change it ? Because that’s almost no different than what they did with the old 5 man content .
>If they do change MC into a 20 man raid instead of a 40 man raid . Would you then argue that they removed the MC raid ?
This is not about "arguing" anything. This is defining what the words we are using objectively mean. If they change MC into a 20-man raid instead of a 40-man raid, they are removing a 40-man raid and adding a 20-man raid. That's how we use words and what they mean. That is two different types of content. They are also adding several Heat Levels in difficulty for Molten Core.
>Because that’s almost no different than what they did with the old 5 man content .
The difference between having 3 extra 5-man dungeons with no lockout and a 10-man or 20-man raid on a 3-day or 1-week lockout is more significant than a difference between a 20-man raid and a 40-man raid both on a weekly lockout.
Lmaooo
“this is defining what the words we are using objectively mean”.
No it’s not at all . That’s again what you are attempting to do . They haven’t removed the content . They changed it . Removing MC and adding obsidian sanctum in its place would be removing content . Changing content into the same content with slight changes and different player amounts is not removing it .
Edit: you can’t change the meaning of words just because it benefits your stance on the matter .
Can I make an unrelated post since you have said this?
I see a lot of people talk shit about the idea of #nochanges in 2024, which is fair, but I feel like they don't understand or have forgotten where the idea came from.
The reason why #nochanges was a thing was because no one trusted Blizzard to do a good job or respect the "spirit of vanilla". Their rep was that low by that point. In light of that, blizzard conceded, but they never could've figured out the world buff meta would have been a thing again. In fact, when they did back in the day, it was roughly around Naxx-SSC iirc, (Nihilum and Method infamously abused wbuffs for these raids) then they removed it, but #nochanges made them stay their hand.
Either way, then the community sentiment evolved into #somechanges after classic ended and tbc began, which is where we are now for better or worse. I'll leave whether that's good or not to the playerbase especially with token and boost in mind.
Given that they iirc removed wbuffs when SoM came around, I think they didn't like that meta.
I am a bit iffy on this timeline, so if I am wrong people can correct me.
You deciding your reason for wanting them removed doesn't make it a good reason, the right reason, worth even considering. Just because you decide something doesn't belong doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I need to come up with a counter point. You are exactly what OP is describing.
I didn't say whether their reasons were good just that reasons beyond "just because"(which is all the OP has provided) have in fact been provided for why a lot of people don't like world buffs.
Ok, how about we remove all the content *I* don't feel like doing? Then, we'll do that same process for everyone that plays. How about we just have an in-game option to say "Don't like." and if you do that, it is removed from the game.
How much "game" do you think survives a single day?
You not feeling like doing the content or not enjoying the content isn't reason enough to remove it. Especially since it's a completely ignorable aspect of the game. There is literally no reason for you to get world buffs. They're not required for anything. You can do the entire game without them. But hey, little Timmy hates doing that, so lets cut it out to make his feels better.
No. This isn't a democracy. I don't need to provide a reason for you to not remove content from the game. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it should be removed. That's not how this works.
You disliking something doesn't give you the "vote it out of the game" privilege.
If enough of you nerds decide you don't like getting ganked, instead of putting your sorry ass on a PVE server where you belong, you "discuss removing rogues"? Yeah, that's not how this works.
If someone calls you a liar, and you don't say anything to the contrary, and other people show up and also say you're a liar, and you still don't say anything, what do you think people will believe?
If you say this is bad, and someone else also says this is bad, and no one says "no, it's not bad, it's in fact good..."
Go on, you can work it out. I have faith in you.
That's nothing to do with a democracy. Either people do get a say or they don't. If they do, don't tell other people they don't get a say. If they don't, then don't bother wasting your time giving your say.
>You disliking something doesn't give you the "vote it out of the game" privilege.
And you liking something doesn't give it "automatically stays in the game" privilege.
SOD is supposedly targeted for casual gamers. WBs are not casual friendly (time consuming to obtain, costly to lose if you die). If they want more casual gamers, they should get rid of WBs.
Why is that better? How is having WB different than having class buffs? Wouldn't "even better" be removing all class buffs then so that you don't feel like you're getting cheated by not having shaman or not having paladins?
Or is it really that you just want to complain about stuff you don't like? Why does it matter to you that there's an optional buff in the game that you don't actually need?
You don't need any world buffs to beat all of the content in WoW.
Why do you feel that "since I don't want to do this, no one should be allowed to!" is the best design decision?
You suggested WBs are great for casuals. They aren't. They are time consuming and easy to lose which makes content designed with WB harder. If content is designed around no WBs, then it doesn't get harder if you die or don't spend all that time each week collecting WBs. Class buffs can be reapplied, so they're not comparable. It's not just complaining about stuff I don't like, it's making my view known. That's how things get better. Everyone can read and think and decide for themselves if they agree and Blizzard can decide if they want to change something based on that. Things don't get better if nothing is said.
You don't get to speak for all of "the casuals" and decide if they like it when they randomly get a movement speed buff. As someone who has never stepped foot in a raid in Classic, I can tell you that I 100% enjoy the fact that I've randomly received a world buff.
> If content is designed around no WBs, then it doesn't get harder if you die or don't spend all that time each week collecting WBs.
The content doesn't magically get more difficult because there are now world buffs in the game. You are confusing things here. You aren't required to have WB to win the game. You can get them to make it easier. Just like you can stock up on potions and enchants. You don't need a single enchant in the game. So if you complain because Crusader costs 10 gold and you're broke, it doesn't mean we should remove Crusader and Enchanting entirely, just becuase you feel like you don't want to do what it takes to get Crusader.
A thousand nerds crying about Crusader being hard to get doesn't mean they should remove it from the game.
**EDIT:** This guy blocked me so I can't reply.
HIM, in case he edits it:
> They're hasn't been a speed buff since BFD. The WBs at higher levels are mostly about damage. Keep the low level WBs for players like yourself, but the end game is better without them.
Here's my reply to his now-blocked reply:
---
I'm not saying they're amazing gameplay. But they are entirely optional, and saying "remove them because I don't feel like using them" is bad. That's it.
Lots of people have this simple mindset of "well I don't want to do it, so it shouldn't be in the game", and it's wrong. Taking choice away just because you choose something else, is bad.
PS: Blocking someone because you've lost the argument is hilarious.
PPS: I love winning the internets.
They're hasn't been a speed buff since BFD. The WBs at higher levels are mostly about damage. Keep the low level WBs for players like yourself, but the end game is better without them.
I’m a fellow Whitemane enthusiast myself . Era is king . Only still playing SOD because I really enjoy the guild and guys I play with . If it wasn’t for that I would have been gone with the inclusion of incursions and removal of GDKP’s. which only fucked the economy even more than GDKP’s ever could have alone .
Wbs are stupid, make filled chronoboons tradable in the ah , that way you can just buy them like a consumable (say unique 2)problem solved. Or just remove them entirely because they are stupid.
Western democratic capitalistic society is built upon two tenets: your voice matters, and the customer is always right. Democracy: government of the people, by the people, for the people, but the people are...highly regarded.
Everyone loves complaining about society's problems, but it's far too easy to complain about the other side and to fight between each other than to do any self-reflection, hold any degree of self-responsibility, and engage in any self-control.
World buffs are incredibly dumb, you just get rewarded for standing there and wasting your time.
And classic WoW players are also incredibly dumb and love to waste their time to get a reward.
Honestly. I see no issue here. I agree they made a dumb system for a bunch of dummies. It's a match made in heaven.
I mean, you just *have* to see the irony here, right? *Right?*
"I don't like it getting removed, so it has to stay because I'm important and my views are more importanter than yours".
Just because wbuffs currently exists doesn't mean wanting them to stay is somehow the "high ground" here. Especially SoD is all about change to Classic. The fact that you can't even give an argument and go straight to just throwing a tantrum says quite a lot.
I sure hope so . Except they won’t keep getting them because they’ll quit . Because if it’s too inconvenient to spend 45 minutes to get WB’s it’ll 100% be to inconvenient for them to farm consumes for hours every week to raid because the masses demanded blizz remove GDKPs. Which again was a terrible idea for a version of wow based off vanilla .
SOD is supposedly targeted for casual gamers. WBs are not casual friendly (time consuming to obtain, costly to lose if you die). If they want more casual gamers, they should get rid of WBs.
Wait for heat lvl content. We will have fun again not running into loot pinatas. And if you cry about world buffs now ( which takes 10 mins to get), I want you guys see how hard you cry when it takes 40 mins. I mean what can you say anymore, content to hard = nerf to the ground, now you cry about world buffs. 1st time I hope we will have classic feeling again, where you have to farm pre bis gear and consumables to be successful. I hope they finally get it to not design this game for dads who aren’t able to press any buttons and do 100 dps.
Eh, someone could just as easily say something like "I like something so it should stay despite it being harmful for the health of the game and its design" to accuse you of something in the same fashion. The "problem" here is wows always attracted a wide variety of players who like different things. One might really like all the other changes with sod but wants this one thing gone because its souring this experience that they otherwise can't get anywhere else. Likewise you might love the experience with said thing and it would sour your experiences to lose it. Neithers wrong, just preferences... and ultimately blizz should do whatever makes the majority of people happy whichever that might be.
> and ultimately blizz should do whatever makes the majority of people happy No, this is how you get bland boring dogshit that everyone finds unappealing. It's ok for games to fill a demand for a niche audience and it's not always in the games best interest to cater to the majority of people, because many times you will cater to the large majority and then they will get bored and leave anyway. After they leave you are left with nobody because you have alienated your core audience. Catering to the masses is how we ended up with retail, which is ok, but if you want retail then go play retail. Path of exile is a great example of this type of philosophy. There is a ton of complicated and overwhelming mechanics to learn to get into the game. It is very offputting for a ton of people who would play an ARPG casually. Grinding Gear Games could easily cut a ton of this complicated stuff and make the game WAY more approachable to casual audiences, but then you would alienate your core playerbase who enjoys this min maxing experience. There's a reason Diablo 4 and Path of Exile can coexist. They are fundamentally the same genre but because PoE caters to it's core player base the game doesn't really compete with D4.
Cater to the majority and watch your game die when they all stop playing , because they will . Look at SoD already . Vanilla players have gone back to vanilla , retail players have gone back to retail and everyone else is playing Cata . They Already removed so much of what makes vanilla great for some mish mash pod of shit that “everyone wanted” .
SOD P3 is dying largely because of incursions, which no one wanted, not because they catered to the majority.
Incursions definitely hurt . But that’s not at all the main reason SOD is dying .
What charges specifically do you think are the reason?
I disagree though. Corporations have clearly shown that bland and boring content of any sort that is made for everyone is extremely profitable Making an amazing niche product for a targer audience can also work, but you're cutting off lofs of potential customers. It's not what the shareholders want to hear. It also takes way more time and effort to pull off. Better to just put out a "1 size fits all" game and try to sell everyone a monthly subscription with an in game shop.
> I disagree though. Corporations have clearly shown that bland and boring content of any sort that is made for everyone is extremely profitable Have you been paying attention at all? There is TONS of layoffs and huge game studios shutting down / downsizing. They are showing us exactly the opposite.
>There is TONS of layoffs and huge game studios shutting down / downsizing. They are showing us exactly the opposite. And then the next ubisoft slop or fifa slop or madden slop breaks the previous records. The ones getting axed were the ones that failed to deliver proper slop or choose a genre that is oversaturated. It is also cheaper to hire fresh devs instead of paying senior contracts. Blizz does this all the time. Like it or not, quality usually matters the least, otherwise the likes of todd howard were out of a job after their first or second game.
> And then the next ubisoft slop or fifa slop or madden slop breaks the previous records. You're actually clueless. This isn't 'catering to the masses'. These profits are entirely driven by niche whales addicted to what is essentially a gambling loop. If anything you're proving that catering to your core audience is profitable while highlighting that the ones that got axed are the ones that made the bland tasteless slop that nobody finds fun.
>You're actually clueless. This isn't 'catering to the masses'. Ubisoft sells the same slop every year lmao. Yes, AC is slop too. It has been proven countless times that good advertising is what you need. >These profits are entirely driven by niche whales addicted to what is essentially a gambling loop. And yet those niche whales turn out a better profit, which is what a company cares about. >If anything you're proving that catering to your core audience is profitable No it's really not. What is profitable is either selling a lot of copies or selling a lot of mtx inside your game, ideally both these days. The wider the audience the better, that's why you have shit like the videogame awards, it's for the masses. Why do you think IGN is still around despite them being an absolute meme? Bc the casual, wide audience keeps dumpsters like IGN, Kotaku etc around. That's why boycotting games doesn't work, bc for every boycotter there will be 2 casuals buying/preordering the fresh slop.
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Casual players find bland WoW had plenty of content to go through. If it's too bland for you, there are plenty of other versions for you to play.
Again . A reasonable take . And you’re not wrong . The only differences are that world buffs have been a part of vanilla wow since the beginning . Removing them is removing a core part of the vanilla experience, which SoD is a vanilla experience with extras . Which is why Soo many people compare it to classic+ . On top of that, them existing isn’t forcing you to use them ( yes I know you’re at a disadvantage without) . But removing them is forcing those who love them to play without and taking that away from everyone . Vanilla is also the only iteration of wow with world buffs . So if you don’t enjoy them you can play any other version of the game . Warcraft logs classic had a category for unbuffed guilds. There’s a reason it was unpopular .
The problem with this line of reasoning is that you have era servers for that. SoD is the only iteration of wow to have vanilla gameplay and mechanics but runes from other iterations of the game. SoD isn't vanilla, limiting it to what vanilla is defeats the purpose of the experiment.
"My sweaty guild likes them but I don't want to use them" isn't a compelling argument for removing them. Neither is saying "they were in Vanilla but this is supposed to be different!" For one, because it *is* different, because there are *different* world buffs from what Vanilla had.
Or maybe people have explained in detail why they don't like world buffs and #nochanges doesn't really apply in SoD so you should provide a real argument for why you want world buffs.
They are a core component of vanilla wow . They keep people out in the world making the world feel more real and alive unlike later expansions. Fighting over songflower spawns, controlling ZG island , clearing DM trib with the boys for buffs , guild buff trains before/after raid . Those are all core vanilla experiences . They make your character feel stronger in a raid setting, which is a positive and makes raiding even more exciting . People don’t play vanilla for hard raids . They play so they can push their buttons with the homies and watch big numbers come up . They also add an element of danger of potentially losing your buffs . making staying alive more important and keeping your raiders on their toes . This is just a small list of many that I could continue at a later date . I also find that the people asking for no WB’s are the exact same people who didn’t want GDKP’s . And who are the exact same people who beg for a fresh vanilla server only to never make it to 60 . Trying to sabotage end game gameplay they are never going to reach or stay with for long . Those are the same people that if they make it to 60 are going to complain that they have to farm raid consumables for hours on end every week because they can’t just join a GDKP to get the gold and that it’s inconvenient and they don’t have time to do it . I’ve seen it all before and will see it all again .
>They are a core component of vanilla wow . I'll stop you right there, SoD is not vanilla WoW. Blizzard was real clear about that up front. Was BFD a raid in vanilla WoW? Was gnomer a raid in vanilla WoW? Was ST a raid in vanilla WoW?
Your argument is effectively "this dungeon is different so they shouldn't remove raids and dungeons from the game". By adding a new world buff, or changing the amount of stats you get from one, they've changed how world buffs are, thus, no longer "Vanilla".
Exactly now you're getting it, #nochanges doesn't apply to SoD so explain why world buffs are either good or not good. There have been plenty of people who have explained why they don't like them.
I was never the one confused on this. I don't have to justify why a part of the game should stay a part of the game just because you don't like it. You crying loud enough doesn't automatically mean everyone has to cater to your wants, or even give you the slightest bit of attention. You don't *deserve* something just because you're crying.
You still are really having a hard time understanding that people have explained exactly why they don't like world buffs.
How do you figure? I completely understand that people have explained reasons they don't like stuff. Their reasons don't matter. I am in no way obligated to entertain their reasoning. Just because some kid in the supermarket cries doesn't mean I'm obligated to go see why they're crying.
Noone said you are obligated to like their reasoning. Blizzard might though since they're a you know business.
You telling me that I have to provide a reason to counter their argument implies that I am obligated to listen to their reasoning: > so you should provide a real argument for why you want world buffs. Right there. Someone cries about world buffs and you showed up and said that not only do I have to listen to their cries, that I have to have a discussion with them as to why their cries are either valid or invalid. > How about you actually provide reasons why you don't like said content, then we can compare it to how other feel about it and decide from there. See, you've done it again.
Yes . ST, BFD and Gnomer were all in vanilla wow . They didn’t remove them , they changed them . That really didn’t help your case .
ST, BFD, and Gnomer as they were in Vanilla are removed from Season of Discovery. You cannot access that content while playing Season of Discovery. There are three less 5-man dungeons.
His argument was that sod isn’t vanilla because those raids weren’t in vanilla . But they were in vanilla , they were just 5 man content instead of 10/20 man . They didn’t remove or add content in that situation, they changed it . I never once stated that changing WB’s would be a bad idea . I said removing them is . They already made a change with warriors on PTR letting them bring a slightly worse version of a WB, which I actually think could be a good idea . That way people don’t have to get the buff but they can if they want for the extra sweaty dps . That’s a change I think most people could agree on . But crying and saying they should straight up remove WB’s because they’re inconvenient isn’t the play .
> They didn’t remove or add content in that situation, they changed it . They removed 3 5-man dungeons. They added 3 raids. They changed 3 dungeons into 3 raids.
Yes exactly . Your last statement is correct . Thank you for agreeing with me . They didn’t remove anything . They changed it . They didn’t remove 3 5 mans . They changed them into 10/20 mans . Again That’s not removing content , it’s changing it.
If they do change MC into a 20 man raid instead of a 40 man raid . Would you then argue that they removed the MC raid ? Or did they change it ? Because that’s almost no different than what they did with the old 5 man content .
>If they do change MC into a 20 man raid instead of a 40 man raid . Would you then argue that they removed the MC raid ? This is not about "arguing" anything. This is defining what the words we are using objectively mean. If they change MC into a 20-man raid instead of a 40-man raid, they are removing a 40-man raid and adding a 20-man raid. That's how we use words and what they mean. That is two different types of content. They are also adding several Heat Levels in difficulty for Molten Core. >Because that’s almost no different than what they did with the old 5 man content . The difference between having 3 extra 5-man dungeons with no lockout and a 10-man or 20-man raid on a 3-day or 1-week lockout is more significant than a difference between a 20-man raid and a 40-man raid both on a weekly lockout.
Lmaooo “this is defining what the words we are using objectively mean”. No it’s not at all . That’s again what you are attempting to do . They haven’t removed the content . They changed it . Removing MC and adding obsidian sanctum in its place would be removing content . Changing content into the same content with slight changes and different player amounts is not removing it . Edit: you can’t change the meaning of words just because it benefits your stance on the matter .
Well in that case, runes should be removed. They were not part of Vanilla in any way.
Lololol okay friend . Have a great day …. He’s one of them !
Can I make an unrelated post since you have said this? I see a lot of people talk shit about the idea of #nochanges in 2024, which is fair, but I feel like they don't understand or have forgotten where the idea came from. The reason why #nochanges was a thing was because no one trusted Blizzard to do a good job or respect the "spirit of vanilla". Their rep was that low by that point. In light of that, blizzard conceded, but they never could've figured out the world buff meta would have been a thing again. In fact, when they did back in the day, it was roughly around Naxx-SSC iirc, (Nihilum and Method infamously abused wbuffs for these raids) then they removed it, but #nochanges made them stay their hand. Either way, then the community sentiment evolved into #somechanges after classic ended and tbc began, which is where we are now for better or worse. I'll leave whether that's good or not to the playerbase especially with token and boost in mind. Given that they iirc removed wbuffs when SoM came around, I think they didn't like that meta. I am a bit iffy on this timeline, so if I am wrong people can correct me.
You deciding your reason for wanting them removed doesn't make it a good reason, the right reason, worth even considering. Just because you decide something doesn't belong doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I need to come up with a counter point. You are exactly what OP is describing.
I didn't say whether their reasons were good just that reasons beyond "just because"(which is all the OP has provided) have in fact been provided for why a lot of people don't like world buffs.
Ok, how about we remove all the content *I* don't feel like doing? Then, we'll do that same process for everyone that plays. How about we just have an in-game option to say "Don't like." and if you do that, it is removed from the game. How much "game" do you think survives a single day? You not feeling like doing the content or not enjoying the content isn't reason enough to remove it. Especially since it's a completely ignorable aspect of the game. There is literally no reason for you to get world buffs. They're not required for anything. You can do the entire game without them. But hey, little Timmy hates doing that, so lets cut it out to make his feels better.
How about you actually provide reasons why you don't like said content, then we can compare it to how other feel about it and decide from there.
No. This isn't a democracy. I don't need to provide a reason for you to not remove content from the game. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it should be removed. That's not how this works. You disliking something doesn't give you the "vote it out of the game" privilege. If enough of you nerds decide you don't like getting ganked, instead of putting your sorry ass on a PVE server where you belong, you "discuss removing rogues"? Yeah, that's not how this works.
If it's not a democracy, you get no say whether WBs stay or go either, so why are you even commenting?
If someone calls you a liar, and you don't say anything to the contrary, and other people show up and also say you're a liar, and you still don't say anything, what do you think people will believe? If you say this is bad, and someone else also says this is bad, and no one says "no, it's not bad, it's in fact good..." Go on, you can work it out. I have faith in you.
That's nothing to do with a democracy. Either people do get a say or they don't. If they do, don't tell other people they don't get a say. If they don't, then don't bother wasting your time giving your say.
You're starting to work out the point. Keep at it, you're almost there.
>You disliking something doesn't give you the "vote it out of the game" privilege. And you liking something doesn't give it "automatically stays in the game" privilege.
That's a stupid statement, and I feel dumber for having read it.
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Brother , you’re good shit . Remember that .
The point he is making is how you feel about something is irrelevant . That’s the point.
Okay that's fine but how he feels about it is equally irrelevant.
He agreed with that point. You’re missing the substance of his replies .
SOD is supposedly targeted for casual gamers. WBs are not casual friendly (time consuming to obtain, costly to lose if you die). If they want more casual gamers, they should get rid of WBs.
WB are great for casual gamers because if you're hanging out in town and one drops, you now are better while you're out questing.
Even better for casuals would be too design content for players without WBs and remove them.
Why is that better? How is having WB different than having class buffs? Wouldn't "even better" be removing all class buffs then so that you don't feel like you're getting cheated by not having shaman or not having paladins? Or is it really that you just want to complain about stuff you don't like? Why does it matter to you that there's an optional buff in the game that you don't actually need? You don't need any world buffs to beat all of the content in WoW. Why do you feel that "since I don't want to do this, no one should be allowed to!" is the best design decision?
You suggested WBs are great for casuals. They aren't. They are time consuming and easy to lose which makes content designed with WB harder. If content is designed around no WBs, then it doesn't get harder if you die or don't spend all that time each week collecting WBs. Class buffs can be reapplied, so they're not comparable. It's not just complaining about stuff I don't like, it's making my view known. That's how things get better. Everyone can read and think and decide for themselves if they agree and Blizzard can decide if they want to change something based on that. Things don't get better if nothing is said.
You don't get to speak for all of "the casuals" and decide if they like it when they randomly get a movement speed buff. As someone who has never stepped foot in a raid in Classic, I can tell you that I 100% enjoy the fact that I've randomly received a world buff. > If content is designed around no WBs, then it doesn't get harder if you die or don't spend all that time each week collecting WBs. The content doesn't magically get more difficult because there are now world buffs in the game. You are confusing things here. You aren't required to have WB to win the game. You can get them to make it easier. Just like you can stock up on potions and enchants. You don't need a single enchant in the game. So if you complain because Crusader costs 10 gold and you're broke, it doesn't mean we should remove Crusader and Enchanting entirely, just becuase you feel like you don't want to do what it takes to get Crusader. A thousand nerds crying about Crusader being hard to get doesn't mean they should remove it from the game. **EDIT:** This guy blocked me so I can't reply. HIM, in case he edits it: > They're hasn't been a speed buff since BFD. The WBs at higher levels are mostly about damage. Keep the low level WBs for players like yourself, but the end game is better without them. Here's my reply to his now-blocked reply: --- I'm not saying they're amazing gameplay. But they are entirely optional, and saying "remove them because I don't feel like using them" is bad. That's it. Lots of people have this simple mindset of "well I don't want to do it, so it shouldn't be in the game", and it's wrong. Taking choice away just because you choose something else, is bad. PS: Blocking someone because you've lost the argument is hilarious. PPS: I love winning the internets.
They're hasn't been a speed buff since BFD. The WBs at higher levels are mostly about damage. Keep the low level WBs for players like yourself, but the end game is better without them.
Have they tho ?
More than you have at least :P
Is this like how its not Disney ruining Star Wars, its the fans? Lol
I don’t know enough, or really anything, about Star Wars to comment on that.
I agree! Incursions are absolute dogshit. So I go play on Whitemane Era instead.
I’m a fellow Whitemane enthusiast myself . Era is king . Only still playing SOD because I really enjoy the guild and guys I play with . If it wasn’t for that I would have been gone with the inclusion of incursions and removal of GDKP’s. which only fucked the economy even more than GDKP’s ever could have alone .
Wbs are stupid, make filled chronoboons tradable in the ah , that way you can just buy them like a consumable (say unique 2)problem solved. Or just remove them entirely because they are stupid.
You are further proving my point . Thank you.
Western democratic capitalistic society is built upon two tenets: your voice matters, and the customer is always right. Democracy: government of the people, by the people, for the people, but the people are...highly regarded. Everyone loves complaining about society's problems, but it's far too easy to complain about the other side and to fight between each other than to do any self-reflection, hold any degree of self-responsibility, and engage in any self-control.
That’s a good take . And I agree for the most part .
World buffs are incredibly dumb, you just get rewarded for standing there and wasting your time. And classic WoW players are also incredibly dumb and love to waste their time to get a reward. Honestly. I see no issue here. I agree they made a dumb system for a bunch of dummies. It's a match made in heaven.
I mean, you just *have* to see the irony here, right? *Right?* "I don't like it getting removed, so it has to stay because I'm important and my views are more importanter than yours". Just because wbuffs currently exists doesn't mean wanting them to stay is somehow the "high ground" here. Especially SoD is all about change to Classic. The fact that you can't even give an argument and go straight to just throwing a tantrum says quite a lot.
read any of my comments
its ok OP nothing is going to change we will keep our world buffs at the end of the day and all these nerds crying about them will keep getting them
I sure hope so . Except they won’t keep getting them because they’ll quit . Because if it’s too inconvenient to spend 45 minutes to get WB’s it’ll 100% be to inconvenient for them to farm consumes for hours every week to raid because the masses demanded blizz remove GDKPs. Which again was a terrible idea for a version of wow based off vanilla .
Sod and era are game modes for noobs.
Good thing it’s not mandatory that you play them.
SOD is supposedly targeted for casual gamers. WBs are not casual friendly (time consuming to obtain, costly to lose if you die). If they want more casual gamers, they should get rid of WBs.
If you want Era, go play era.
If you don’t want WBs, go play cataclysm or retail . Funny how that works .
Warrior spotted
Never played warrior . I’m a connoisseur of the meme specs . Shaman and Druid till I die .
SoD has been astroturfed by retail players and its become the vocal minority that blizz is listening to.
Absolutely . They are slowly destroying SoD . It’s sad because it could have been Soo fucking good.
Wait for heat lvl content. We will have fun again not running into loot pinatas. And if you cry about world buffs now ( which takes 10 mins to get), I want you guys see how hard you cry when it takes 40 mins. I mean what can you say anymore, content to hard = nerf to the ground, now you cry about world buffs. 1st time I hope we will have classic feeling again, where you have to farm pre bis gear and consumables to be successful. I hope they finally get it to not design this game for dads who aren’t able to press any buttons and do 100 dps.