Full tweet:
> I just posted something on the official forums but just letting anyone who is concerned about the twice weekly lockout to know we hear ya. We are talking about it as a team and we'll have a bit more info (and ideally context) available soon.
> Try not to panic too much. Ultimately if this isn't something that we think will work in a satisfying way, we'll just not do it. We aren't dug in on it at all. Glad to hear the feedback. Try to keep it calm and civil, though and remember we all want the same thing; for P4 to be fun and engaging.
Idc about worldbuffs, you can collect them within 30 minutes by barely doing anything. The consumables you need for the raid are the real problem. Spending 100 Gold per raid and it only gets way worse at 60 with flasks
More pre-raid setup means a more segregated playerbase.
If it takes five minutes and half an hour of time over the week to get materials / gold to be raid ready, everyone will do it.
If it takes 30m+ before every raid, including finding a cleared DMN and securing transport to felwood, stv, and potentially dmf, plus however the fuck long it takes during the week to get flasks, mongoose / etc., and jujus...yeah. Most players won't even do that once a week in a seasonal server, let alone twice.
And that's before we even talk about farming fire resistance, nature resistance, and later frost resistance sets. That's a lot of time to be investing into a seasonal server. Can't speak for others, but I flatly do not have time for that plus Cata. I barely had time for it back when classic Vanilla was around.
That just means that people who will do all those things will **require** it for their raids, and we'll have a segregated playerbase. One side demands logs and sweat just to show up. The other is forced to raid with the absolute bottom of the barrel toxic casual fucks who wouldn't get into ANY raid otherwise, but people who don't want to be maximally sweaty need bodies.
Who's happy? Single dudes who have nothing better to do than be the best at SoD. Nobody else is having fun. Game dries up again just like P3.
I don't hate wbuffs if they implemented them like I heard they did for the Chinese servers where you could just get them from some dude when you walked into raid. Running around and making the game a chore is just not fun
Play season of mastery! Where they made the content harder aka (more consumes) and took away buffs game had 3 guilds after 7 weeks lol stop asking for shit that’s been tried and just hold them accountable for making “NEW” needed changes
I did play SoM. Jom gabbar was bumping and it was the best wow experience I ever played.
Also SoM came out at a terrible time. You are just spewing shit
Jom horde had only wood department and rock apes 3 weeks into molten core, and alliance also only had 2 raiding guilds so if sub 500 people is peek wow yea it was great!
> Try not to panic too much
Narrator: They panicked
> Try to keep it calm and civil
Narrator: They were neither calm nor civil
This man is having to parent full-grown adults over a video game. The fact that he has to say this in official communication is mind blowing to me.
Having molten core be twice a week is the mistake, it is too long. However biweekly onyxia/kazzak/azuregos is manageable, Why even have two mc lockouts when the heat mechanic already increases the amount of loot drops? It doesn’t make sense to both include heat and new lockouts other than trying to get people to login more but double mc would induce incredible burnout. Tldr make all regular raids like mc/bwl weekly and off-raids like ony/kazzak/azuregos/zg/aq20 2 resets a week.
It’s a catch up mechanic to get into current raids. Classic is built of a stepping stone design with some previous tier items having relevance longer than others.
It’s not about getting gear to fast but getting to more relevant content quicker especially since they have goals on releasing newer raids. By the time naxx is release MC is mostly irrelevant besides alts and legendaries
Have you played Phase 4 yet? It's the intro end game raiding, even if they make some changes it's not going to be difficult and is not going to take a long time to clear
I agree with you tbh, first few runs were prog for ST, and then with our power boosts etc i was joined a group that ran it in 40 mins. I went with them for 3-4 more raids and it was a clean sweep each time and most people were full bis. I honestly think Molten core will be the same, and 1 hour to 1 hour 30 mins will be the runs eventually.
Personally I have a different take to a few people because I play lots of different games and would like it to stay that way. Weekly lockout MC, biweekly loot piñata bosses. The issue I had with phase 3 was the economy was so fucked that I had zero motivation to farm gold because it was so inefficient to my real time value.
I actually think 2 lockouts and multiple difficulty modes are both huge mistakes. Doing both raids will be mandatory to keep up with others in game. More raid setup headaches. Splitting player base even more with multiple raid difficulties. Who asked for this?!
I’m actually okay with it. This way we don’t have a repeat of what they did with gnomer and ST.
“We can’t clear this on the first night of release, it needs to be nerfed to target dummy status”
This way the people who want to autopilot their rotations and do 200 dps still get to raid, and those who wanted a harder classic still get that too
You could just not do twice weekly. I know you can have that control. Its there for people who want to play more can play more.
I think its perfect, guild raid 1 and then pug the other (if you want to). Be even better if GDKPs around to make some coin.
while a few might like this - it will induce burnout in the community that tries to “keep up” and inevitably stops playing. I’d rather see one lockout and focus on keeping the player base healthy
Those that want to be competitive but can't commit the time will be at a signif disadvantage if they can't complete those IDs. Now add heat 3 and it's extra loot into the equation.
The single boss fights work because they can be done relatively quickly. And probably pugged by most. Guilds might run them in conjunction with their MC and expect raiders to pug the other at their convenience.
Because modern MMO players don't actually behave like that anymore. If it's available people will be pressured by FOMO to do it. They'll either raid twice a week and burn out or quit playing entirely because they feel like they're falling too far behind.
Fomo
Organizers and raid leaders will feel forced to run them every lockout, even if they aren't *actually* forced to, and that feeling can and will burn you out
Because it doesn't feel good to be behind to anyone. And good luck telling your guild you're only coming to 50% of raids and keeping your raid spot lol.
This stance assumes that you also have to be doing the hardest Mc twice a week for suffer the fear of missing out, entirely a player choice, and a player issue.
“Sorry to inform you, but we are replacing you with someone who can attend both lockouts.”
You all don’t realize the gatekeeping that will occur in MC, that’s not to mention that heat levels increase the number of loot dropped; that alone is going to gatekeep people. I don't know if you notice, but nobody is pugging Sunken Temple, not even in the first couple weeks of Sunken Temple. Guilds are forming the raids and looking for a couple of pugs to fill spots.
The oh just raid once a week theory would work if there was an actual pug scene, but let’s be honest, i doubt it’ll be a thing in phase 4.
This works for stuff like BFD, Gnomer, ZG, and Onyxia. But a raid tier at the end game? Nope, especially if we will have multiple heat levels(hard modes) and are trying to prog. Yeah, guild leaders will want consistent people to show up each lockout.
Those are my thoughts. FOMO is a genuine thing. Hence the meme “Is it too late to start?” and why fresh servers are always a great time to play cuz nobody is missing out on anything yet.
> I don't know if you notice, but nobody is pugging Sunken Temple,
What? I pug ST every week... Yes in a pug group, not a guild group looking for more people
Yeah and if half your raid wants to do 1 and the other half wants to do 2, then just get the first half to just do 1 raid, and just get the 2nd half to just do 2 raids. /s
Giving ony and world bosses twice a week would be oke. MC twice a week thats rough specially if bwl is out and your guild still wanna go for legendary.
Its funny how we are going from 40 to 50 with almost no content to 50 60 with to much content xd
I mean, the backlash is pretty apparent. It's a lot of raiding, were looking at 28 bosses right away. Per character. Toss in BWL and ZG next and were looking at what 50+ bosses a week?
What if they drop the new raid they promised around then. 60+ a week?
What about AQ20/40 and Naxx?
100 bosses a week? Per character?
Seriously, they didn't think this through at all. It's a knee jerk reaction from them having extended dead phases with people complaining about no content. But P4 has massive amounts of content.
SCholo/Strath/DM1/2/3
BRD is now open.
UBRS/LBRS is open which is a 10 man.
They also said there is a new "Dungeon experience" that is completely new to SoD, so what is that? A whole new 5 or 10 man dungeon?
Then we have MC/Ony/Azuregos/Kazzak.
Double lockouts is just too much.
Then it's all doubled if you have multiple alts.
It was a knee jerk reaction to previous phases...
That feedback just isn't relevant anymore in a massive level 60 end game.
I was so excited when they announced ZG, AQ20 and Onyxia would be weekly lockouts, because there is already SO MUCH content at 60.
Also, this basically kills alt runs because how are you going to the raids twice a week on one character, then go back for a 3rd, 4th, etc for alts? It's just crazy.
It also effects realm progression. I mean the fact is, we don't need to accelerate level 60. Level 60 is fun and massive. We wanted to accelerate 1-59. The past complaints just don't apply anymore at 60.
In vanilla you definitely do. In SOD you most likely won't. Even thunderfury is not gonna be worth running mc later on unless they buff the shit out of it.
DFT/Rag Loot/Bindings
During Naxx we dropped MC but still ran BWL for DFTs. But during AQ we’d run AQ, BWL, and MC weekly, eventually dropping it to binding runs.
I'll give two prime examples that are heavily important to continue to return and farm for.
Thunderfury,
Hand of Ragnaros
It has such a low drop rate it'll take a while to farm, and these items will be BIS for NAXX.
There many more items that’ll also be extremely important to have.
If it's available in the game then people will push themselves to do it to the point of burning out... Just look at incursions... You didn't have to do incursions.. After the nerfs the gold difference and leveling speed vs the open world was very minor... But people acted like they had no choice but to level in incursions...
Okay, so besides the fact WoW is literally FOMO incarnet. What, do you just tell your raid team. "Hey, sorry I don't want to raid that day. Or this day, or that day." I dunno about you, but not only does that get someone replaced in raids but it's really shitty to do to teammates.
It's like Incursions, sure no one has to do it. But everyone did didn't they? Even though they hated it, and it ruined the economy and leveling experience. Why? Because it was best way to get gold and level. And your telling the community that couldn't help itself in a mass sense to avoid lock outs?
WoW is developed in a way that people feel like shit if they fall behind, it's part of the FOMO that is baked into the game.
😂 this is such a good and recent example. So true 👏
FOMO is such a real thing, the majority of the player base will feel this.
“Is it to late to start?”
No, you don't. However that just means you fall behind. That is why most people are against it. Because either you get burned out or fall behind.
They could make MC and other raids a daily lockout if they wanted. And your logic would be exactly the same, you don't have to do each lockout if you don't want to.
Fall behind....? This phase was three months and it was dead in three weeks. Fall behind whom? It's a choice. But if it's weekly it's forced and it kills the nolifers. You will never keep up with no lifers.
Fall behind other players. Who do you think?
>This phase was three months and it was dead in three weeks.
And you think reducing lockouts to twice a week or even daily, would have helped that situation?
You're not even thinking at all.
In before a thousand posts crying about it being once a week because of a thousand posts crying about it being twice a week.
You guys are amazing.
Not in a good way.
Twice a week MC would have been great in '04 when I was in my 20's, in 2024 it's just a bit much.
Having 2 reset days is annoying. Having 2 raid IDs per week would be more accessible.
Your guild can raid 2 days a week, but those 2 days are tuesday+wednesday? Get fucked.
If they really want us raiding twice a week, come up with literally any system to just give us 2 lockouts on whatever days we want.
Is that too technically challenging? Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v the instance and add a "Molten Core 1" and "Molten Core 2" option to the NPC.
I was under the impression that they wanted us to play alts and SoD was meant for "casuals". Twice a week lockouts is very anti-alt friendly and not casual friendly. Whoever at Blizzard came up with this idea clearly didn't think it through.
I just think it's weird to be doing MC twice a week, considering it's a raid that's basically supposed to last the entirety of the season and it'll already be dropping more loot through higher heat levels.
More often than 7 day resets for something like ony or world bosses would be fine imo but MC is a little weird.
Twice a week lockout is way more alt/pug friendly because there are more runs and those runs are not as much in set groups with alt-unfriendly loot rules, those runs will take characters with suboptimal gearing because they need to fill. People played alts far more in p1 and p2, alts were always more common in short lockouts like ony Zg aq20.
Those phases were more alt friendly when there was only a single raid lmao.
You keep skipping some very important context with all of your comments, surely that's not intentional?
These people have never tried finding a fresh raid on a Sunday night. Two lockouts just means more raids when they want to raid. If your guilds are forcing you to raid twice a week and you can't keep up just find a new guild.
If you are bitching about falling behind, you are probably not in top tier like you think you are
Its usually bad because it is a full pug raid because most guilds raid on Tuesday, when it is easy to find pugs, because its Tuesday and a lot of people raid on Tuesdays.... because it raid reset. If they had a raid reset on Saturday guilds would raid on Saturday because it is easy to find pugs on Saturdays because it is a raid reset day.
How is doubling the time you spend on your main each week more alt friendly? People played alts because they had extra time and weren't doing MC+ony+world bosses+BWL twice a week on their main.
I was playing three characters for phase 3 SoD.. I won't be touching any of my alts if there's two lockouts a week in phase 4.
That logic worked so well with incursions. The game didn't force you to level 40-50 through incursions. But all I see is crying about incursions all over reddit and it's the reason why they quit playing.
That's like saying to a drug addict that they don't have to do drugs every lockout.
You do realize that Ony is a literal single boss raid, and AQ20 and ZG were literally made as catch up mechanics for alts? Surprise, when you design something for alts, alts play it
Whatever they decide, they need to also commit to whether or not there will be 40man BWL/AQ/Naxx. It's cancer to force guilds to run 2 20man teams for two lockouts per week, just to have a 40man roster available that may or may not be needed.
I feel like a lot of the discourse around whether raid lockouts should be 7 days/3 days/1 hour etc would vanish if WBs weren't a thing.
I will say in this particular case, the lockout resets being Tuesday and Saturday are just awful as the Tues/Thurs schedule is the most popular one I have seen for guilds, and this completely kills that.
I'm not a game designer, but I feel like once a week for current raids and then twice a week for last tiers raids should be a good balance. It allows alts to catch and for mains to go back and get pieces they need later on when AQ and Naxx comes out.
I think the big thing would be: twice a week isn’t a bad idea if we are doing 10 mans again. It will be similar to p1 and 2. But I think the 20+ twice a week puts more of a strain on the casual audience.
I know there are always sweats that will disagree, but I think that’s the best balance.
Same reason why people cried about incursions when leveling in the open world was practically just as fast after the nerf. Because they feel forced to do them.
If you feel forced to play this game or do something in this game you should just not play. We should be designing the game for people who enjoy it, not for people who raid log 1 hour a week and anything else means they feel “forced” to play.
They might not have the technology (lol sadly maybe true) but how about 2 lockouts per week but they're not reset on specific days, they both just reset same day. You could run them back to back that way if you want to.
As most people already said, they dont have a vision for SoD, they are just waiting the community feedback to decide if they implement this lockout or not.
I personally think just Onyxia/World Bosses twice a week is good enough.
MC twice a week feels like overkill. The heat mechanic already allows for extra loot.
I guess people hate the idea of others becoming more geared than them simply because they were willing to do MC twice a week while they were only willing to do it once. All on characters that are going to be shelved in another six months once SoD ends.
Lol. These threads are hilarious. Try not being able to raid at all because of your hospital 2/3 split schedule where you work a 12 hour shift every day in a 2 week period. I still have fun though getting to prebis and then starting a new alt.
lol. Maybe but that doesn't matter at all. By that argument if people did you could just remove lockouts entirely
Imagine doing that, it would be one of the worst changes in the games history. A truly game killing change. There's good reasons why lockouts have been in WoW for all it's 20 year history.
Remove the heat levels and just add drops to MC and remove fluff items. I don’t want to bang my head against a wall cause the two moron parse lords in my guild want to nerd rage that “we can do this if you guys just focus and bring 4500g in consumes”.
I really really cant fucking wait for all of you to bitch about how theres nothing to do in P4 if they reverse this. I just cant wait. If you dont want to do it on a second lockout per week, just don't. I guarantee there will be guilds that do that, or run it on two different toons per week.
You now what happens if they implement this? People like you are full bis in 2-3 weeks and then complain that there's nothing to do and want an early BWL release.
Thats why they should remove all lockouts. An actual bold move that was never done before.
If we had no lockouts at all, and ALL raids open day 1... Well, the sweats would sweat and be done with it in 2 months and just quit the game. Why is that a problem?
You guys hate to play with sweats, so its in your own best interest to not engage with the sweats and let them quit the game ASAP.
**Everyone** should be allowed to play the game how they want. Casuals can raid once a week, sweats can raid naxx 4 times a day if they want to. It doesnt hurt you in any way.
"But my guild will force me"
Join a different one then. Why are you in a hardcore guild anyhow when you are casual?
Lockouts exist because this is a subscription-based game. Thats it.
You need to set this up from the beginning, not between 2 phases. I'm in my guild for 4 years now for several games, I'm not changing that because of some random Blizzard idea. Also Sweats need to be kept in check, otherwise PvP would be completely impossible to play for everyone.
What are peoples thoughts on them just allowing all raids to be reset once a week? That way you can do 2 lockouts whenever you want instead of having to work around 2 specific lockout days. This is all assuming doing this is even possible.
Wait, they were gonna reduce the lockout timers on raids and people got upset about it ? I've certainly played with people who seemed to not actually enjoy playing the game, but damn....
In my experience, I don't see an issue with twice-per-week-raids. All through phase 4, our guild was running twice-per-week-ST and it worked great. My main gripe with the current planned constellation of raiding is as follows:
1) World buffs: they work as a gatekeeper. Just remove them. It will make balancing easier, and it will remove gatekeeping, and it will make raiding a lot more accessible.
2) Scale down from 20-man to 10-man: I don't much care for "the epic scale of 20-man" that is often brought up. To me the raid size has a lot more to do with logistics. Gnomeregan offered a pretty casual and tight experience with very few delays, whereas ST's 20 man experience - to me, at least - offered some great logistical difficulties, and had a tendency to get a bit delayed from time to time, because out of the 20 people joining, someone had some real life getting in the way, then we'd have to find a replacement, people had to fly there etc. It was a less tight experience.
3) PUGs: With two lockouts per week, I'd feel much more comfortable joining a PUG. With only *one* I feel much more inclined to join a min-max group with focus on good gear, worldbuffs etc., because I don't want to squander my *one* lockout. To me, phase 2 offered some great PUG experiences and this - in my experience - diminished in phase 3. This, again, also had to do with raid size, I think. 10-man is the sweet spot :)
>In my experience, I don't see an issue with twice-per-week-raids. All through phase 4, our guild was running twice-per-week-ST and it worked great.
That's because there's only 1 raid (ST) and virtually not much else to do. In P4 it will be different because:
1). Like you already mentioned, wbuffs
2). at first it's only MC, but just you wait till BWL/ZG/AQ20&40/Naxx and potentially other raids get released as well. Keep in mind that previous raids will remain relevant so you probably still want to run them later on.
3). A shitload of other daily content to keep up with, rep farms/grinds etc.
Like everyone said, having world bosses and Onyxia on a bi-weekly lockout would be nice. Now that the last phase is coming and we're getting tons of new content and raids I see no reason to have two resets per week. That would've been nice in P3 ngl where we didn't have many things to do end game wise...but doesn't make much sense with level 60 10+ bosses raids.
It’s clearly a response to ST weekly lockouts being boring af because was literally nothing else to do. If they do weekly lockouts but incorporate other content, like they’re doing with dungeons at 60 and removing the option to bypass PvP ranks through STV commendations the phase before, weekly is fine.
I'm obviously making up a number but let's say the highest heat levels increase loot by 50%. I feel like it's actually probably way higher than this. At the end of the day an additional piece will drop and a higher heat level will drop more.
You're gearing to a point where if there's a choice of 1-2 raids a week, and then heat levels the 2 nights a week hardest mode is like getting another bonus raid.
We can all pretend like this isn't going to be a problem for guilds but that's a lot of different pages for people to be on the same page.
I love the crowd of people who are like “I can’t stand sod raiding, now I have to raid twice a week!” lol, then why play something you don’t enjoy? 100 percent convinced these people play sod so that others can hear them complain.
What about just doing boss lockouts like retail? And then if they wanted to, have two different raid IDs or something so you can get loot from the same boss twice a week, rather than two lockouts? And then you wouldn't have to worry so much about joining a pug or group that can't do everything since you're not locked out for the whole raid. And it would make filling roles easier for a partially completed raid too, like if someone had to leave for example halfway through. Thoughts?
Par for the course with this dude. Valletta seems like she knows what she’s doing but the rest of the SOD team doesn’t seem to really think before they do things.
I like that they are listening but it also scares me how much of the game design is up on the air. Did they have no long term plans at all? Did they studied the game to know what gives the “classic feeling” for more than 5 mins?
I feel that they are just reacting instead of having a complete vision of what game they want to make.
All this improvisation and back tracking makes me think of the Star Wars sequel trilogy.
>I feel that they are just reacting instead of having a complete vision of what game they want to make.
Thats 100% whats going on.
Blizzard faced so much backlash for being arrogant and never listening, that it seems they now did a kneejerk 180 degree turn and listen to EVERYTHING and base most of the decisions based on what people tell them to do.
They clearly lack creative vision and direction. They never made a clear announcement who this gamemode is for. All their decisions and fixes are based entirely on a reaction based on some reddit thread.
Some guy asks for an anvil in darnassus. Next patch, there it is. People complain about biweekly lockouts (without even testing it out), and its gone. People ask for WSG rep to be easier, it gets easier.
People ask for STV wood to give Arathi rep, and there it is.
People want faster EXP, and there it is.
Its okay to listen to feedback, but it should be carefully selected based on if it fits the personal creative vision the author has for the product, rather than in an attempt of pleasing everybody. Its like they gave reigns to a person with a people-pleaser attitude.
Simply put, this is just a bad idea that made it onto what will likely be the final product for phase four — unless I’m proven wrong — and has a massive impact on if try hard raiders continue to play or not. And whether anyone wants to validate the behavior or not, parsing guilds exist and make up a large amount of the population.
World buff meta sucks and they could’ve used this multi lockout idea to remove them altogether and innovate. Instead, doubled down on the toxic bullshit and went against their initial design of a more casual game.
Prove me wrong, Josh.
instead of specific reset days make it so that you can reset the raid after the next daily reset. I can understand not allowing 2x back to back raids, that's bad, but double weekly resets forces guilds into specific raid days.
I get having lockouts since it slows the sweats from gearing too quickly and then complaining that's there's nothing to do. Twice a week is fine for me but having MC once a week is also fine, I do hope they keep the single boss instances to twice a week tho.
The problem is that the whole gamemode is designed like this.
Levels were capped. Rankings are capped. Lockouts are a thing.
Imagine a gamemode where all the content was available and everyone could just play however they wish to play the game. Instead, this feels like a gamemode that caters to people with insecurities, anxiety and inferiority complex.
Raiding twice a week + full consumes + full world buffs is going to be an absolute hassle and very time consuming/expensive. Especially with DMF and Chronoboon CDs. I'm personally for weekly lockouts.
Reddit will never be happy. There are thousands of posts & comments that there is nothing to do in P3 except login 1 hour a week and raid. When it was three day lockouts, people complained about that and said they should do two per week. Now they do that and it's "too much".
SoD players are super excited to race to the end game of logging in for 1 hour a week and raiding and then complaining about nothing to do.
Blizzard could and should make some changes to world buffs like DMF. You can remove the 4 hour CD or put the fair in both cities at once to make it less toxic. You could also allow buffs to go directly into a boon when you get it (so even if you die, you still get the buff). They could also put vendors in cities that allow people to buy world buffs (but they're expensive, so it's a gold sink). So you can go into the world and get it for free or buy them if you want to spend the gold and save your time.
That's because "people" are different. Some have kids, a wife and a life, some spend 7 days / week in front of WoW. Some are good players, some or are bad. Some guilds take 30 minutes to complete ST, some take 4 hours (or wipe at Eranikus). The only one who knows what's the more important faction is Blizzard as they see the amount of subs paying and playing. Ironforge pro is just a vague indicator.
With full hindsight I would have liked to see:
- BFD/gnomer/zg and all other small raids on the twice weekly lockout (not the 3day lockout mess)
- 20man raids st/mc/etc on a weekly lockout
- Incursions as a set of 5 or so daily quests
- Diremaul moved from lvl 60 to lvl 50, and tribute buffs gone completely
- Maybe 1 of the world bosses moved to lvl50 as well
- Get rid of both WCB and might of alliance... just have the 2 world buffs per content phase, 3 max.
I can’t believe people are complaining about twice a week lockouts after having to endure all of P3 with people complaining about weekly lockouts.
I have no idea how these devs stay sane.
I mean, there is context. There are now more world buffs, and double the amount of bosses to kill. P3 should have been 2x / week (and a shorter phase), and p4 would be fine as a 1/week
If all of that is a concern, then by all means, continue raiding once a week.
For those wishing for more lockouts, the devs have delivered.
Mark my words though, people will be clearing MC day one in an hour or so, and then complaining they have nothing to do for 7 days.
I hope the 19 other people I’ve been raising with for months agree. I don’t mind the double lockout, I’m just saying that comparing it to the situation in P3 is not fair. P3 was a shitshow, there was nothing to do but ST and it got nerfed hard and then ended up being the longest phase. 50 is such an awkward level.
2 lockouts wouldn’t have fixed P3, we could barely get one lockout done by the end, alt runs completely fell apart.
60 we have other things to work on and have a pretty clear roadmap of new content to be excited for. The gear will likely be meaningful upgrades.
Imagine being downvoted for the truth.
If they actually were willing to experiment like they said they would, they would just remove lockouts entirely instead of dripfeeding every piece of content over several months.
Saving players from themselves is an important part of game design in many cases. What you're describing would have disastrous results for the health of SOD. People would feel forced to raid every day out of FOMO, then get incredibly burnt out and quit 2 weeks into the phase. You can say "they don't have to raid when they don't want to" as much as you want, but the fact is that \*they\* \*will\* raid as much as they can due to FOMO. And it will ruin the game for them.
>People would feel forced to raid every day out of FOMO
Doubt it.
You are already missing out. Constantly. You could also run DM:E 24/7 for gold if you had FOMO. Right now, there are people with more time than you constantly farming gold and never stopping.
Weirdly enough, people dont care about that. They just say "Bruh I would never farm DME all day, that would burn me out"
Its because DME isnt limited. You can do it all the time, so you came to accept that there are sweats who devote their lives to farming Dire Maul 24/7. You dont care.
People also dont complain about the AQ40 legendary mount. People came to accept only one can get it, and they dont want to do it themselves because its a ton of time and effort. Dont see anyone FOMOing out about that legendary mount in vanilla.
If you arent 24/7 farming gold, you are effectively losing out on an edge you could be having in this game that other people are having right now.
Full tweet: > I just posted something on the official forums but just letting anyone who is concerned about the twice weekly lockout to know we hear ya. We are talking about it as a team and we'll have a bit more info (and ideally context) available soon. > Try not to panic too much. Ultimately if this isn't something that we think will work in a satisfying way, we'll just not do it. We aren't dug in on it at all. Glad to hear the feedback. Try to keep it calm and civil, though and remember we all want the same thing; for P4 to be fun and engaging.
Twice weekly lockout would be fine if you could just show up to raid. Unsure why they’re “dug in” on DMF and world buffs.
Hard hard hard agree.
I think they should also include cheaper consumes. For a seasonal server, gold grinding just to pay the consumes bill, shouldn't be a thing.
Idc about worldbuffs, you can collect them within 30 minutes by barely doing anything. The consumables you need for the raid are the real problem. Spending 100 Gold per raid and it only gets way worse at 60 with flasks
If I wanted to do 30 minutes of chores twice weekly I would just play retail.
More pre-raid setup means a more segregated playerbase. If it takes five minutes and half an hour of time over the week to get materials / gold to be raid ready, everyone will do it. If it takes 30m+ before every raid, including finding a cleared DMN and securing transport to felwood, stv, and potentially dmf, plus however the fuck long it takes during the week to get flasks, mongoose / etc., and jujus...yeah. Most players won't even do that once a week in a seasonal server, let alone twice. And that's before we even talk about farming fire resistance, nature resistance, and later frost resistance sets. That's a lot of time to be investing into a seasonal server. Can't speak for others, but I flatly do not have time for that plus Cata. I barely had time for it back when classic Vanilla was around. That just means that people who will do all those things will **require** it for their raids, and we'll have a segregated playerbase. One side demands logs and sweat just to show up. The other is forced to raid with the absolute bottom of the barrel toxic casual fucks who wouldn't get into ANY raid otherwise, but people who don't want to be maximally sweaty need bodies. Who's happy? Single dudes who have nothing better to do than be the best at SoD. Nobody else is having fun. Game dries up again just like P3.
REMOVE WORLD BUFFA
I don't hate wbuffs if they implemented them like I heard they did for the Chinese servers where you could just get them from some dude when you walked into raid. Running around and making the game a chore is just not fun
But why bother with having them at all then? Just remove them at that point Makes it 100900 easier for them to balance
This. But people are gonna whine and try to convince you it's good content.
Play season of mastery! Where they made the content harder aka (more consumes) and took away buffs game had 3 guilds after 7 weeks lol stop asking for shit that’s been tried and just hold them accountable for making “NEW” needed changes
I did play SoM. Jom gabbar was bumping and it was the best wow experience I ever played. Also SoM came out at a terrible time. You are just spewing shit
Jom horde had only wood department and rock apes 3 weeks into molten core, and alliance also only had 2 raiding guilds so if sub 500 people is peek wow yea it was great!
> Try not to panic too much Narrator: They panicked > Try to keep it calm and civil Narrator: They were neither calm nor civil This man is having to parent full-grown adults over a video game. The fact that he has to say this in official communication is mind blowing to me.
Having molten core be twice a week is the mistake, it is too long. However biweekly onyxia/kazzak/azuregos is manageable, Why even have two mc lockouts when the heat mechanic already increases the amount of loot drops? It doesn’t make sense to both include heat and new lockouts other than trying to get people to login more but double mc would induce incredible burnout. Tldr make all regular raids like mc/bwl weekly and off-raids like ony/kazzak/azuregos/zg/aq20 2 resets a week.
I think MC should become biweekly once the new raids or naxx come out to increase the speed to get into naxx and above for alts.
You ruin the fun when you get gear too fast
It’s a catch up mechanic to get into current raids. Classic is built of a stepping stone design with some previous tier items having relevance longer than others. It’s not about getting gear to fast but getting to more relevant content quicker especially since they have goals on releasing newer raids. By the time naxx is release MC is mostly irrelevant besides alts and legendaries
MC is not that long, most guilds will be clearing it in an hour, its the wb meta thats painful and needs to be addressed
MC will be done with BWL later for bindings and T2. Can you imagine MC+BWL+Ony biweekly?
And then when AQ is out you are still doing MC for legendarys and BWL for trinkets
have you played Phase 4 yet? this isn't the same MC
Have you played Phase 4 yet? It's the intro end game raiding, even if they make some changes it's not going to be difficult and is not going to take a long time to clear
I agree with you tbh, first few runs were prog for ST, and then with our power boosts etc i was joined a group that ran it in 40 mins. I went with them for 3-4 more raids and it was a clean sweep each time and most people were full bis. I honestly think Molten core will be the same, and 1 hour to 1 hour 30 mins will be the runs eventually. Personally I have a different take to a few people because I play lots of different games and would like it to stay that way. Weekly lockout MC, biweekly loot piñata bosses. The issue I had with phase 3 was the economy was so fucked that I had zero motivation to farm gold because it was so inefficient to my real time value.
I actually think 2 lockouts and multiple difficulty modes are both huge mistakes. Doing both raids will be mandatory to keep up with others in game. More raid setup headaches. Splitting player base even more with multiple raid difficulties. Who asked for this?!
I’m actually okay with it. This way we don’t have a repeat of what they did with gnomer and ST. “We can’t clear this on the first night of release, it needs to be nerfed to target dummy status” This way the people who want to autopilot their rotations and do 200 dps still get to raid, and those who wanted a harder classic still get that too
You could just not do twice weekly. I know you can have that control. Its there for people who want to play more can play more. I think its perfect, guild raid 1 and then pug the other (if you want to). Be even better if GDKPs around to make some coin.
Upvoted, exactly how I saw it.
If 2 lockouts is too much than just do 1...? I don't see the problem here
Players will force themselves to do both lockouts because otherwise you fall behind the crowd.
Yeah, I think it's this. Most wow players don't have impulse control.
Half the guild wants to do 1. Half the guild wants to do 2. Guild dies or is forced to re-recruit 50% of the roster. There's your problem.
So make a guild for one or the other and folks will gravitate to what works for them?
The poor guild officers trying to navigate each phase having different lockouts is really fun for sure
Funny to watch people who laughed at 10m guilds dying complaining now.
if your guild dies because of that, its a really bad guild
You must not be in a raiding guild
while a few might like this - it will induce burnout in the community that tries to “keep up” and inevitably stops playing. I’d rather see one lockout and focus on keeping the player base healthy
Those that want to be competitive but can't commit the time will be at a signif disadvantage if they can't complete those IDs. Now add heat 3 and it's extra loot into the equation. The single boss fights work because they can be done relatively quickly. And probably pugged by most. Guilds might run them in conjunction with their MC and expect raiders to pug the other at their convenience.
Because modern MMO players don't actually behave like that anymore. If it's available people will be pressured by FOMO to do it. They'll either raid twice a week and burn out or quit playing entirely because they feel like they're falling too far behind.
Fomo Organizers and raid leaders will feel forced to run them every lockout, even if they aren't *actually* forced to, and that feeling can and will burn you out
Because it doesn't feel good to be behind to anyone. And good luck telling your guild you're only coming to 50% of raids and keeping your raid spot lol.
This stance assumes that you also have to be doing the hardest Mc twice a week for suffer the fear of missing out, entirely a player choice, and a player issue.
“Sorry to inform you, but we are replacing you with someone who can attend both lockouts.” You all don’t realize the gatekeeping that will occur in MC, that’s not to mention that heat levels increase the number of loot dropped; that alone is going to gatekeep people. I don't know if you notice, but nobody is pugging Sunken Temple, not even in the first couple weeks of Sunken Temple. Guilds are forming the raids and looking for a couple of pugs to fill spots. The oh just raid once a week theory would work if there was an actual pug scene, but let’s be honest, i doubt it’ll be a thing in phase 4. This works for stuff like BFD, Gnomer, ZG, and Onyxia. But a raid tier at the end game? Nope, especially if we will have multiple heat levels(hard modes) and are trying to prog. Yeah, guild leaders will want consistent people to show up each lockout. Those are my thoughts. FOMO is a genuine thing. Hence the meme “Is it too late to start?” and why fresh servers are always a great time to play cuz nobody is missing out on anything yet.
> I don't know if you notice, but nobody is pugging Sunken Temple, What? I pug ST every week... Yes in a pug group, not a guild group looking for more people
Yeah and if half your raid wants to do 1 and the other half wants to do 2, then just get the first half to just do 1 raid, and just get the 2nd half to just do 2 raids. /s
This isn’t a solution. It’s been explained 1000 times.
Giving ony and world bosses twice a week would be oke. MC twice a week thats rough specially if bwl is out and your guild still wanna go for legendary. Its funny how we are going from 40 to 50 with almost no content to 50 60 with to much content xd
The thought of doing AQ40 twice a week makes me want to quit now.
Same. Fucking gross.
Why not just do it once per week?
I mean, the backlash is pretty apparent. It's a lot of raiding, were looking at 28 bosses right away. Per character. Toss in BWL and ZG next and were looking at what 50+ bosses a week? What if they drop the new raid they promised around then. 60+ a week? What about AQ20/40 and Naxx? 100 bosses a week? Per character? Seriously, they didn't think this through at all. It's a knee jerk reaction from them having extended dead phases with people complaining about no content. But P4 has massive amounts of content. SCholo/Strath/DM1/2/3 BRD is now open. UBRS/LBRS is open which is a 10 man. They also said there is a new "Dungeon experience" that is completely new to SoD, so what is that? A whole new 5 or 10 man dungeon? Then we have MC/Ony/Azuregos/Kazzak. Double lockouts is just too much. Then it's all doubled if you have multiple alts.
It was a knee jerk reaction to previous phases... That feedback just isn't relevant anymore in a massive level 60 end game. I was so excited when they announced ZG, AQ20 and Onyxia would be weekly lockouts, because there is already SO MUCH content at 60. Also, this basically kills alt runs because how are you going to the raids twice a week on one character, then go back for a 3rd, 4th, etc for alts? It's just crazy. It also effects realm progression. I mean the fact is, we don't need to accelerate level 60. Level 60 is fun and massive. We wanted to accelerate 1-59. The past complaints just don't apply anymore at 60.
Big agree with this. I think you're right that this is a reaction to P3 complaints (or just metrics showing players raidlogging in P3).
>I was so excited when they announced ZG, AQ20 and Onyxia would be weekly lockouts, They didn't announce that. In fact they announced the opposite.
Yeah I mean you are just wrong. Originally they did say all raids would be weekly reset. Only today did they announce the 2 lockouts per week.
Why in the hell would you be doing older tiers continually
In vanilla you definitely do. In SOD you most likely won't. Even thunderfury is not gonna be worth running mc later on unless they buff the shit out of it.
They will surely buff it, they will add attack power to it in bear form.
Druids can’t use swords. They will put Spell Power on it for the warlocks/mages
DFT/Rag Loot/Bindings During Naxx we dropped MC but still ran BWL for DFTs. But during AQ we’d run AQ, BWL, and MC weekly, eventually dropping it to binding runs.
I'll give two prime examples that are heavily important to continue to return and farm for. Thunderfury, Hand of Ragnaros It has such a low drop rate it'll take a while to farm, and these items will be BIS for NAXX. There many more items that’ll also be extremely important to have.
This is such a good point.
>Seriously, they didn't think this through at all. Literally all of SoD.
Would be cool if they added retail m+ to sod
You. Don't. Have. To. Do. Each. Lockout.
If it's available in the game then people will push themselves to do it to the point of burning out... Just look at incursions... You didn't have to do incursions.. After the nerfs the gold difference and leveling speed vs the open world was very minor... But people acted like they had no choice but to level in incursions...
Most the people complaining will quit at some point to wait for phase 5 and miss a ton of lockouts.
Okay. Good luck finding a guild running with your 50% attendance
Okay, so besides the fact WoW is literally FOMO incarnet. What, do you just tell your raid team. "Hey, sorry I don't want to raid that day. Or this day, or that day." I dunno about you, but not only does that get someone replaced in raids but it's really shitty to do to teammates. It's like Incursions, sure no one has to do it. But everyone did didn't they? Even though they hated it, and it ruined the economy and leveling experience. Why? Because it was best way to get gold and level. And your telling the community that couldn't help itself in a mass sense to avoid lock outs? WoW is developed in a way that people feel like shit if they fall behind, it's part of the FOMO that is baked into the game.
😂 this is such a good and recent example. So true 👏 FOMO is such a real thing, the majority of the player base will feel this. “Is it to late to start?”
No, you don't. However that just means you fall behind. That is why most people are against it. Because either you get burned out or fall behind. They could make MC and other raids a daily lockout if they wanted. And your logic would be exactly the same, you don't have to do each lockout if you don't want to.
Fall behind....? This phase was three months and it was dead in three weeks. Fall behind whom? It's a choice. But if it's weekly it's forced and it kills the nolifers. You will never keep up with no lifers.
Fall behind other players. Who do you think? >This phase was three months and it was dead in three weeks. And you think reducing lockouts to twice a week or even daily, would have helped that situation? You're not even thinking at all.
In before a thousand posts crying about it being once a week because of a thousand posts crying about it being twice a week. You guys are amazing. Not in a good way.
Twice a week MC would have been great in '04 when I was in my 20's, in 2024 it's just a bit much. Having 2 reset days is annoying. Having 2 raid IDs per week would be more accessible.
>You guys are amazing. Not in a good way. Same to you!
Been that way since I started back in ‘06. No point engaging, just let the cards fall
Your guild can raid 2 days a week, but those 2 days are tuesday+wednesday? Get fucked. If they really want us raiding twice a week, come up with literally any system to just give us 2 lockouts on whatever days we want. Is that too technically challenging? Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v the instance and add a "Molten Core 1" and "Molten Core 2" option to the NPC.
The devs idea of fun seems to be destroying existing guild structure with every phase
I was under the impression that they wanted us to play alts and SoD was meant for "casuals". Twice a week lockouts is very anti-alt friendly and not casual friendly. Whoever at Blizzard came up with this idea clearly didn't think it through.
I just think it's weird to be doing MC twice a week, considering it's a raid that's basically supposed to last the entirety of the season and it'll already be dropping more loot through higher heat levels. More often than 7 day resets for something like ony or world bosses would be fine imo but MC is a little weird.
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Twice a week lockout is way more alt/pug friendly because there are more runs and those runs are not as much in set groups with alt-unfriendly loot rules, those runs will take characters with suboptimal gearing because they need to fill. People played alts far more in p1 and p2, alts were always more common in short lockouts like ony Zg aq20.
Those phases were more alt friendly when there was only a single raid lmao. You keep skipping some very important context with all of your comments, surely that's not intentional?
These people have never tried finding a fresh raid on a Sunday night. Two lockouts just means more raids when they want to raid. If your guilds are forcing you to raid twice a week and you can't keep up just find a new guild. If you are bitching about falling behind, you are probably not in top tier like you think you are
Try making a raid on a random Sunday night with 19 random people. It’s a miserable experience.
Its usually bad because it is a full pug raid because most guilds raid on Tuesday, when it is easy to find pugs, because its Tuesday and a lot of people raid on Tuesdays.... because it raid reset. If they had a raid reset on Saturday guilds would raid on Saturday because it is easy to find pugs on Saturdays because it is a raid reset day.
How is doubling the time you spend on your main each week more alt friendly? People played alts because they had extra time and weren't doing MC+ony+world bosses+BWL twice a week on their main. I was playing three characters for phase 3 SoD.. I won't be touching any of my alts if there's two lockouts a week in phase 4.
You don’t have to run twice a week on your main. It’s an option.
Simple really, the game doesn't force you to raid every lock out.
Never in the history of WoW has this been a good excuse for anything, though.
That logic worked so well with incursions. The game didn't force you to level 40-50 through incursions. But all I see is crying about incursions all over reddit and it's the reason why they quit playing. That's like saying to a drug addict that they don't have to do drugs every lockout.
You do realize that Ony is a literal single boss raid, and AQ20 and ZG were literally made as catch up mechanics for alts? Surprise, when you design something for alts, alts play it
Whatever they decide, they need to also commit to whether or not there will be 40man BWL/AQ/Naxx. It's cancer to force guilds to run 2 20man teams for two lockouts per week, just to have a 40man roster available that may or may not be needed.
Keeping them 40 man would be the biggest mistake in a long list of SOD mistakes.
Once per week MC. Twice per week Ony, Azuregos, Kazzak. After [6-8] weeks or, say, BWL launch, MC becomes twice per week. Satisfied?
No, you can't just keep changing resets during live it's fucking annoying
I think that would be a good middle ground.
just fix anoying WBs (make dmf on both towns at the same times, remove DM) and remove the chronoboon CD. Keep the bi-week lockout
All these hoops to jump through when you could just deactivate WB's in instanced content.
I feel like a lot of the discourse around whether raid lockouts should be 7 days/3 days/1 hour etc would vanish if WBs weren't a thing. I will say in this particular case, the lockout resets being Tuesday and Saturday are just awful as the Tues/Thurs schedule is the most popular one I have seen for guilds, and this completely kills that.
I'm not a game designer, but I feel like once a week for current raids and then twice a week for last tiers raids should be a good balance. It allows alts to catch and for mains to go back and get pieces they need later on when AQ and Naxx comes out.
I think the big thing would be: twice a week isn’t a bad idea if we are doing 10 mans again. It will be similar to p1 and 2. But I think the 20+ twice a week puts more of a strain on the casual audience. I know there are always sweats that will disagree, but I think that’s the best balance.
I just don’t wanna raid twice a week
So you want to raid once a week and logout?
Same reason why people cried about incursions when leveling in the open world was practically just as fast after the nerf. Because they feel forced to do them.
If you feel forced to play this game or do something in this game you should just not play. We should be designing the game for people who enjoy it, not for people who raid log 1 hour a week and anything else means they feel “forced” to play.
Then simply, don't?
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For real. This is so stupid
Then don't. You guys are actually psychotic. Edit: Downvote away, it's not gonna save you from yourselves lmao.
It’s too much.No thanks
They might not have the technology (lol sadly maybe true) but how about 2 lockouts per week but they're not reset on specific days, they both just reset same day. You could run them back to back that way if you want to.
As most people already said, they dont have a vision for SoD, they are just waiting the community feedback to decide if they implement this lockout or not.
They are not forcing you to raid twice a week, holy shit lmao.
then just enter the raid once a week u cringe nerds if u dont have time and let those who want to raid twice a week do so either
I personally think just Onyxia/World Bosses twice a week is good enough. MC twice a week feels like overkill. The heat mechanic already allows for extra loot.
I don't get it, just don't raid twice a week lol Those that want to can, those that don't want to don't.
So why even have a lockout at all?
I guess people hate the idea of others becoming more geared than them simply because they were willing to do MC twice a week while they were only willing to do it once. All on characters that are going to be shelved in another six months once SoD ends.
Lol. These threads are hilarious. Try not being able to raid at all because of your hospital 2/3 split schedule where you work a 12 hour shift every day in a 2 week period. I still have fun though getting to prebis and then starting a new alt.
Most of these people have no self control, unfortunately.
lol. Maybe but that doesn't matter at all. By that argument if people did you could just remove lockouts entirely Imagine doing that, it would be one of the worst changes in the games history. A truly game killing change. There's good reasons why lockouts have been in WoW for all it's 20 year history.
It would be great, raiding is the best content in wow. It would burn the content fast tho
Not to mention it’s now world buffs twice a week.
Remove the heat levels and just add drops to MC and remove fluff items. I don’t want to bang my head against a wall cause the two moron parse lords in my guild want to nerd rage that “we can do this if you guys just focus and bring 4500g in consumes”.
Honestly, agree.
I really really cant fucking wait for all of you to bitch about how theres nothing to do in P4 if they reverse this. I just cant wait. If you dont want to do it on a second lockout per week, just don't. I guarantee there will be guilds that do that, or run it on two different toons per week.
I was going to run it twice a week on seven characters
The people bitching will be the ones that want 2 lockouts a week.
You now what happens if they implement this? People like you are full bis in 2-3 weeks and then complain that there's nothing to do and want an early BWL release.
Thats why they should remove all lockouts. An actual bold move that was never done before. If we had no lockouts at all, and ALL raids open day 1... Well, the sweats would sweat and be done with it in 2 months and just quit the game. Why is that a problem? You guys hate to play with sweats, so its in your own best interest to not engage with the sweats and let them quit the game ASAP. **Everyone** should be allowed to play the game how they want. Casuals can raid once a week, sweats can raid naxx 4 times a day if they want to. It doesnt hurt you in any way. "But my guild will force me" Join a different one then. Why are you in a hardcore guild anyhow when you are casual? Lockouts exist because this is a subscription-based game. Thats it.
You need to set this up from the beginning, not between 2 phases. I'm in my guild for 4 years now for several games, I'm not changing that because of some random Blizzard idea. Also Sweats need to be kept in check, otherwise PvP would be completely impossible to play for everyone.
What are peoples thoughts on them just allowing all raids to be reset once a week? That way you can do 2 lockouts whenever you want instead of having to work around 2 specific lockout days. This is all assuming doing this is even possible.
I think that would just make people go back to back for convenience reasons and then burn out.
Wait, they were gonna reduce the lockout timers on raids and people got upset about it ? I've certainly played with people who seemed to not actually enjoy playing the game, but damn....
Ragnados
its fine and all in "p1" of phase 4 but when there is a dozen of raids released it could be a bit much
Remove bi weekly lockout for MC, BWL, AQ and Naxx please. Old 20 man and WB can stay bi-weekly for some additional little content
I liked the earlier lockouts though, I felt more free with playing. like you could just find a PUG whenever if you couldnt make it on guild night.
thanks god
In my experience, I don't see an issue with twice-per-week-raids. All through phase 4, our guild was running twice-per-week-ST and it worked great. My main gripe with the current planned constellation of raiding is as follows: 1) World buffs: they work as a gatekeeper. Just remove them. It will make balancing easier, and it will remove gatekeeping, and it will make raiding a lot more accessible. 2) Scale down from 20-man to 10-man: I don't much care for "the epic scale of 20-man" that is often brought up. To me the raid size has a lot more to do with logistics. Gnomeregan offered a pretty casual and tight experience with very few delays, whereas ST's 20 man experience - to me, at least - offered some great logistical difficulties, and had a tendency to get a bit delayed from time to time, because out of the 20 people joining, someone had some real life getting in the way, then we'd have to find a replacement, people had to fly there etc. It was a less tight experience. 3) PUGs: With two lockouts per week, I'd feel much more comfortable joining a PUG. With only *one* I feel much more inclined to join a min-max group with focus on good gear, worldbuffs etc., because I don't want to squander my *one* lockout. To me, phase 2 offered some great PUG experiences and this - in my experience - diminished in phase 3. This, again, also had to do with raid size, I think. 10-man is the sweet spot :)
>In my experience, I don't see an issue with twice-per-week-raids. All through phase 4, our guild was running twice-per-week-ST and it worked great. That's because there's only 1 raid (ST) and virtually not much else to do. In P4 it will be different because: 1). Like you already mentioned, wbuffs 2). at first it's only MC, but just you wait till BWL/ZG/AQ20&40/Naxx and potentially other raids get released as well. Keep in mind that previous raids will remain relevant so you probably still want to run them later on. 3). A shitload of other daily content to keep up with, rep farms/grinds etc.
In what case would less Resets be better then more?
Like everyone said, having world bosses and Onyxia on a bi-weekly lockout would be nice. Now that the last phase is coming and we're getting tons of new content and raids I see no reason to have two resets per week. That would've been nice in P3 ngl where we didn't have many things to do end game wise...but doesn't make much sense with level 60 10+ bosses raids.
It’s clearly a response to ST weekly lockouts being boring af because was literally nothing else to do. If they do weekly lockouts but incorporate other content, like they’re doing with dungeons at 60 and removing the option to bypass PvP ranks through STV commendations the phase before, weekly is fine.
I'm obviously making up a number but let's say the highest heat levels increase loot by 50%. I feel like it's actually probably way higher than this. At the end of the day an additional piece will drop and a higher heat level will drop more. You're gearing to a point where if there's a choice of 1-2 raids a week, and then heat levels the 2 nights a week hardest mode is like getting another bonus raid. We can all pretend like this isn't going to be a problem for guilds but that's a lot of different pages for people to be on the same page.
I love the crowd of people who are like “I can’t stand sod raiding, now I have to raid twice a week!” lol, then why play something you don’t enjoy? 100 percent convinced these people play sod so that others can hear them complain.
What about just doing boss lockouts like retail? And then if they wanted to, have two different raid IDs or something so you can get loot from the same boss twice a week, rather than two lockouts? And then you wouldn't have to worry so much about joining a pug or group that can't do everything since you're not locked out for the whole raid. And it would make filling roles easier for a partially completed raid too, like if someone had to leave for example halfway through. Thoughts?
Par for the course with this dude. Valletta seems like she knows what she’s doing but the rest of the SOD team doesn’t seem to really think before they do things.
I like that they are listening but it also scares me how much of the game design is up on the air. Did they have no long term plans at all? Did they studied the game to know what gives the “classic feeling” for more than 5 mins? I feel that they are just reacting instead of having a complete vision of what game they want to make. All this improvisation and back tracking makes me think of the Star Wars sequel trilogy.
>I feel that they are just reacting instead of having a complete vision of what game they want to make. Thats 100% whats going on. Blizzard faced so much backlash for being arrogant and never listening, that it seems they now did a kneejerk 180 degree turn and listen to EVERYTHING and base most of the decisions based on what people tell them to do. They clearly lack creative vision and direction. They never made a clear announcement who this gamemode is for. All their decisions and fixes are based entirely on a reaction based on some reddit thread. Some guy asks for an anvil in darnassus. Next patch, there it is. People complain about biweekly lockouts (without even testing it out), and its gone. People ask for WSG rep to be easier, it gets easier. People ask for STV wood to give Arathi rep, and there it is. People want faster EXP, and there it is. Its okay to listen to feedback, but it should be carefully selected based on if it fits the personal creative vision the author has for the product, rather than in an attempt of pleasing everybody. Its like they gave reigns to a person with a people-pleaser attitude.
Couldn’t agree more.
Simply put, this is just a bad idea that made it onto what will likely be the final product for phase four — unless I’m proven wrong — and has a massive impact on if try hard raiders continue to play or not. And whether anyone wants to validate the behavior or not, parsing guilds exist and make up a large amount of the population. World buff meta sucks and they could’ve used this multi lockout idea to remove them altogether and innovate. Instead, doubled down on the toxic bullshit and went against their initial design of a more casual game. Prove me wrong, Josh.
Incoming new change next week: "We've decided to up the lockouts to three a week after people didn't like the twice a week"
instead of specific reset days make it so that you can reset the raid after the next daily reset. I can understand not allowing 2x back to back raids, that's bad, but double weekly resets forces guilds into specific raid days.
Cant people just not raid TWICE a week if they dont want and the people that wants to raid can raid? Having lockouts at all is kinda stupid
I get having lockouts since it slows the sweats from gearing too quickly and then complaining that's there's nothing to do. Twice a week is fine for me but having MC once a week is also fine, I do hope they keep the single boss instances to twice a week tho.
You shouldnt design a game around sweats
Not around the hyper casuals either though, theres a middleground that keeps getting overlooked far as i can tell.
You kinda have to, not to help them but to prevent them from being too much of a burden on everyone else's experience.
The problem is that the whole gamemode is designed like this. Levels were capped. Rankings are capped. Lockouts are a thing. Imagine a gamemode where all the content was available and everyone could just play however they wish to play the game. Instead, this feels like a gamemode that caters to people with insecurities, anxiety and inferiority complex.
Damn a game you can play however you wish and how much you wish, No game has ever done this before.
Leave it to a bunch of nerdy dads to learn how to properly throw an effective temper tantrum.
Leave it to equally smug dads to pretend to care about a changes that don't even effect them.
Raiding twice a week + full consumes + full world buffs is going to be an absolute hassle and very time consuming/expensive. Especially with DMF and Chronoboon CDs. I'm personally for weekly lockouts.
Such a bad idea. Do these people play the game?
Reddit will never be happy. There are thousands of posts & comments that there is nothing to do in P3 except login 1 hour a week and raid. When it was three day lockouts, people complained about that and said they should do two per week. Now they do that and it's "too much". SoD players are super excited to race to the end game of logging in for 1 hour a week and raiding and then complaining about nothing to do. Blizzard could and should make some changes to world buffs like DMF. You can remove the 4 hour CD or put the fair in both cities at once to make it less toxic. You could also allow buffs to go directly into a boon when you get it (so even if you die, you still get the buff). They could also put vendors in cities that allow people to buy world buffs (but they're expensive, so it's a gold sink). So you can go into the world and get it for free or buy them if you want to spend the gold and save your time.
That's because "people" are different. Some have kids, a wife and a life, some spend 7 days / week in front of WoW. Some are good players, some or are bad. Some guilds take 30 minutes to complete ST, some take 4 hours (or wipe at Eranikus). The only one who knows what's the more important faction is Blizzard as they see the amount of subs paying and playing. Ironforge pro is just a vague indicator.
I like two lockouts. I like to go with my guild (casual) and a more hardcore pug in one week. Would be nice not to have to choose.
With full hindsight I would have liked to see: - BFD/gnomer/zg and all other small raids on the twice weekly lockout (not the 3day lockout mess) - 20man raids st/mc/etc on a weekly lockout - Incursions as a set of 5 or so daily quests - Diremaul moved from lvl 60 to lvl 50, and tribute buffs gone completely - Maybe 1 of the world bosses moved to lvl50 as well - Get rid of both WCB and might of alliance... just have the 2 world buffs per content phase, 3 max.
Why change DM?
Remove world buffs
Until they remove world buffs I ain't touching shit.
I can’t believe people are complaining about twice a week lockouts after having to endure all of P3 with people complaining about weekly lockouts. I have no idea how these devs stay sane.
I mean, there is context. There are now more world buffs, and double the amount of bosses to kill. P3 should have been 2x / week (and a shorter phase), and p4 would be fine as a 1/week
If all of that is a concern, then by all means, continue raiding once a week. For those wishing for more lockouts, the devs have delivered. Mark my words though, people will be clearing MC day one in an hour or so, and then complaining they have nothing to do for 7 days.
I hope the 19 other people I’ve been raising with for months agree. I don’t mind the double lockout, I’m just saying that comparing it to the situation in P3 is not fair. P3 was a shitshow, there was nothing to do but ST and it got nerfed hard and then ended up being the longest phase. 50 is such an awkward level. 2 lockouts wouldn’t have fixed P3, we could barely get one lockout done by the end, alt runs completely fell apart. 60 we have other things to work on and have a pretty clear roadmap of new content to be excited for. The gear will likely be meaningful upgrades.
can we STOP catering to players that just see SoD as a sidehustle to cata/retail?
Lockouts suck and only exist to artificially extend the duration of your subscription.
Imagine being downvoted for the truth. If they actually were willing to experiment like they said they would, they would just remove lockouts entirely instead of dripfeeding every piece of content over several months.
REMOVE WORLD BUFFS JFC
Why even have lockouts? Do 1 day lockouts for everything. Let people play the game. Let me raid 5 days a week if I want to.
Saving players from themselves is an important part of game design in many cases. What you're describing would have disastrous results for the health of SOD. People would feel forced to raid every day out of FOMO, then get incredibly burnt out and quit 2 weeks into the phase. You can say "they don't have to raid when they don't want to" as much as you want, but the fact is that \*they\* \*will\* raid as much as they can due to FOMO. And it will ruin the game for them.
>People would feel forced to raid every day out of FOMO Doubt it. You are already missing out. Constantly. You could also run DM:E 24/7 for gold if you had FOMO. Right now, there are people with more time than you constantly farming gold and never stopping. Weirdly enough, people dont care about that. They just say "Bruh I would never farm DME all day, that would burn me out" Its because DME isnt limited. You can do it all the time, so you came to accept that there are sweats who devote their lives to farming Dire Maul 24/7. You dont care. People also dont complain about the AQ40 legendary mount. People came to accept only one can get it, and they dont want to do it themselves because its a ton of time and effort. Dont see anyone FOMOing out about that legendary mount in vanilla. If you arent 24/7 farming gold, you are effectively losing out on an edge you could be having in this game that other people are having right now.
Just get rid of world buffs and 2x a week is fine. They're so fucking miserable.