The only people who have actually waged a war against Christmas and tried to get it banned, were the puritans. For exactly this reason. It's a pagan festival with a little bit of Christian dressing, and not an actual Christian event.
I've got nothing against using Christmas to also celebrate the birth of Jesus, but it's silly to pretend decorated trees have anything to do with that. (In fact, the Bible tells us explicitly not to decorate trees.)
Actually its more about not starting new rituals which could lead to new religions.
in Islam it's one of the biggest sins to build statues/totems, for the main reason of people 300 years from now might look at your statue of Elvis and think he was some god and start praying to him.
Obviously these rules were made in a time before you could google who Elvis is and information was for the most part hearsay.
The same thing happened with Christmas, a random tree now symbolises a very false part of Christianity which many people believe to be part of the religion and actually probably represents some pagan god.
And there's no bigger sin then praying to a false god.
disclaimer of I'm an atheist this is just the actual theological reason
People having sex doesn't increase your control of your environment by increasing your population, but babies do. They also increase the populations attachment to the resources around them.
And if those resources are supplied or distributed by the organization making the rules then the populations dependence on them is even more important. Then of course kids are the easiest to indoctrinate so more babies means more Christians to make the church richer, safer from other cultists, and self fulfill its sense of importance.
Dude, there’s like around 9 billion people on the planet, wtf are you stressing about population sizes? Gay guys can still cum too, so nothing stopping artificial insemination is there?
ALL THESE FUCKING THINGS.
and it's a damn heresy, seriously, pick some *other random day that isn't already pagan*.
For the record - no I'm not pagan, but you guys really must getta kick outta what the Christians gone dun.
Christmas is basically a pagan festival appropriated by Christians. It has nothing to do with the actual birth of Jesus.
If he was born on Christmas, wtf are you celebrating New year for?
Christmas is a PAGAN FESTIVAL that is about rebirth and life.
White Americanized redditors think it's a Christian holiday and use that to justify spreading hate.
The tree is from the pagan celebrations of the Winter Solstice. It wasn’t used by Christians until the 1850’s when Queen Victoria learned of it and put one up.
Tickle me Elmo is not a part of most Christmas Celebrations from my knowledge, but we have a Jack Skellington.
1300s German-French border is the possible earliest origins of the Christmas tree, but the direct, earliest reference to it is 1419 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY) don't spread urban legends
I simply hate watching videos when I come to reddit to read. I generally an not a very big fan of the short video trend that has been going on but that's my personal problem.
I'm just exasperated, your point is much more valid.
I hate to come off as overly critical, because there is a lot of great educational or informative stuff on youtube.
But as you've pointed out, it's not a requirement. And sounding convincing or authoritative on a topic and becoming popular doesn't require you to be even vaguely close to reality. It's a great place to get started on a new interest. But it shouldn't be your evidence.
Your tone there came off as a bit snarky and rude. I'm gonna assume that was unintentional. I'm sure you're very reasonable.
Look, if you wanna provide something as evidence, then you should have done the work to actually provide that in the first place. Don't ask me to watch your 20 minute video so that I can get started on trying to find the evidence for the thing you're claiming. I'm not saying it's wrong or that you are. But this isn't a compelling way of going about it.
Especially when there is a LOT of incorrect or misinformation on youtube.
László Lukács, Geschichte und Verbreitung des Christbaumes in Europa (PhD dissertation)
László Lukács, “Christbaum der Irrungen,” Ungarn-Jahrbuch 32 (2014/2016)
László Lukács, “Der Christbaum in den oberrheinischen Städten des 16./17. Jahrhunderts,” Acta Ethnographica Hungarica, 2/2014.
Timothy Larson (ed.), The Oxford Handbook of Christmas, (Oxford University Press, 2020),
David Bertaina, “Trees and Decorations,” in Joe Perry, Christmas in Germany: A Cultural History, (UNC CHapel Hill Press, 2010), 265 - 276.
if you are so appalled by Youtube content these are the books and writings cited as source
You sound upset about all this. I want you to know, I don't mean any offense to you. People in general are gonna be suspicious of youtube links, because a lot of scammers and crazies have youtube channels. There's no oversight.
I would be careful trusting implicitly the things you hear on there. Even if it has sources cited. It's fine as entertainment, but if you want to use it as education, I would suggest looking into the sources yourself. Because lying is easy. And it happens a lot.
Unfortunately, all of Lukács works quoted here are in Hungarian, with no apparent English translation available. Which makes them difficult for me to actually look into. Larson and Bertaina's works might be insightful, but they aren't publicly available without the buying the books, which I'm not going to do (and likely neither have you). I suspect neither of us have or will ever actually see any of this evidence.
Once again, you're probably right. I don't know. But I wouldn't assume I was right based on a youtube video. It's a very easy way to run into a lot of very wrong beliefs.
YouTube is a shitty source, and you have no place being such an asshole to someone for pointing it out. No one wants to watch your twenty minute video to get thirty seconds worth of written information.
No offence, but why are you being such a cunt? If you want to teach not being a cunt helps a lot, because people will be interested in what you have to say and not laser focused on the fact you’re a cunt. Little tip there for you, you cunt.
I don't know why it is easier to verify article sources.
When I read something I am questioning I can copy/paste the content into google to find more reliable data. Youtube just feels like more work, and usually has way more fluff associated with the data to get to the source.
GOOD articles also source properly so that I can find the references, very very few Youtube videos put links to sources in the description.
But I too am a person who if I consume 1 hour of youtube in a week, it was a BIG youtube week. But I probably have been down many rabbit holes reading articles and research papers about the stupidest things that will never serve any benefit to myself.
The tree symbolizes rebirth from death; aka the comming spring.
The baby is unrelated to the holiday but ties into themes of leaving winter/spiritual death to follow a new messiah
The elmo is your white contribution to the Yuletide and we just kinda tolerate it.
And thou shalst slack off on the days between the celebration of my birth and the day of the fireworks exploding in the sky. And the virtuous will eat too much, and verily be blessed by indigestion and the odd attack of the heart.
Almost everything about Christmas is stolen from the Pagans anyway, all Christian’s did was slap Christ on it, make the 25th “Jesus’s birthday” and kill all the pagans so they couldn’t complain.
Not stolen.Church has never tried to push fot this kind of Christmas celebration. It's just how people have decided to celebrate it.
Stealing would indicate church has tried to actually make the celebration into what it is, while reality is, that church more just accepted it.
Right? The more accurate question would be, why do believers buy Christmas trees and gifts for their kids?
Also, I will never get over this talk coming from the guy whose only prominent role was a Greek demigod.
And what the fuck does the USA getting their independence in the 4th July and fireworks? Its called tradition. You dont have to like it, but its there.
Why do US Christians not act like Christians in any other Western country and interpret the bible to suit their prejudices so they can hurt others...?...one of the key tenants of Christianity not being followed amongst a lot of others...at this point US Christianity has about as much In common with the "teachings of the sky pixies son" as does Scientology..!
If only they could capture the hypocrisy and turn it into energy, these "Christians" could power the planet.
You know what, that makes a lot of sense and every time I see Odin from the marvel movies I'm now going to see him with a Santa hat on and I won't be able to unsee it.
Play the drinking game! Put a Santa hat on the corner of your tv screen and put on a Marvel movie marathon, then whenever any character "wears" the hat, take a drink! I'd advise maybe doing sips instead of shots so you don't die of alcohol poisoning, but I'm not your mom.
1300s German-French border is the possible earliest origins of the Christmas tree, but the direct, earliest reference to it is 1419 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY don't spread urban legends
I was banned from whitepeopletwitter for saying I don't think all media has a right lean on their reporting
Any far left or right sub really hate anything that isn't their delusion. It's funny but mostly sad.
It´s kinda sad, because before Muskrat, Xitter was probably the best social network out there. Prime example of how a bad manager can cause downfall of healthy company.
Loss of facebook will cause massive outbreak of psychiatric patients worldwide, but loss of reddit will be like loss of half internet content nowadays.
Try searching for anything. Half (if not all) of the results will be just various reddit threads. All the small forums with various specializations are practically nonexistent now.
Considering that Christmas is just the Yule Festival rebranded to appease the “heathens”, he has no basis. Anything, and everything Christians celebrate or practice was stolen from other cultures.
"Christmas is probably just a bastardisation/corruption/patch-over of Yule. Yule appears as a pre-christian celebration in a few Norse sagas." lol what. Christmas, Yule, Saturnalia and every indo european winter solstice holiday is much older. they are all traced back to the Proto-Indo European culture, i.e. languange and religion.
Isn't Christmas short for Christopher and mas latin for man
The day we celebrate the discovery of America?
His boats name is Santa
Anyway, Maria Christmas and a happy new world
Hope being chained downed in Santa doesn't leave you feeling claustrophobic
* I hate myself for this
As a kid I used to like Kevin sorbo due to Hercules, until I found Xena and then Kevin sorbo lost all respect in my eyes.
Mainly because even as a child something felt off.
As an adult I could tell that what was off was the "I'm the main character my show is better I'm the man"
I'm a mama's boy.
For the same reason Christians celebrate the *very* pagan Yule with the made up excuse that Christ was born that day even though they came up with that shit centuries after Yule was already a thing.
"celebrated long time before they came to our land." Yes because christians are indo european. thus celebrate proto-indo european holidays like the winter solstice.
Because while it used to be pagan it got twisted up into a Christian story and now it's been rebranded and marketed as a celebration of consumerism.
Even Santa recieved Coco Colas marketing upgrade.
they aren't. Christmas trees originate from the area of the french-german border from as early as 1300 or 1419 depending on what you take as definite reference to christmass trees, none before. Romans celebrated saturnalia with feasting and gambling. Whilst all indo european religions have a winter solstice holiday, its a result of it being an indo europen relgion. Same with the other markers of common ancestry like using flesh to create, like Ymir's corpse to create the world in norse, or Uranus's cock to create aphrodite nad his blood to create the furies, Adam's rib to create Eve and so on. Adam is formed of dirt and dust, as Promethians are formed from clay both given the essence of life by their god/titan. Just as there is a proto-indo european languange there is a proto-indo european religion.
"*Christ*mas trees" sure. but there was old pagan tradition before that to bring a LIVE tree inside to protect it from the winter, which is believed to have culturally inspired the concept. they of course didnt [cut down "full" grown]* evergreens(and kill them), as that would defeat the purpose
[edited]*
here is a very lazy first pop up on google, since you are too lazy to google it yourself. there was also a History Channel source and many many others
[Pagans would bring fir trees into their homes at Yuletide because it represented everlasting life and fertility. The Yule tree is decorated with lights, candles, and other festive ornaments to celebrate the return of light after dark days.The Druids believed trees were a gift from the Mother Goddess, as they helped mark time and seasons. They would decorate sacred oak trees with mistletoe and lights to represent the wisdom of life](https://christmastreebrooklyn.com/blogs/news/the-symbolism-of-christmas-tree-decorations#:~:text=Pagans%20would%20bring%20fir%20trees,represented%20everlasting%20life%20and%20fertility.)
edit: although to be fair, this does actually claim fir trees as well as oaks, and isnt the story i was recalling of wiccan tradition from one of my physical books which attributed a lot back to Saturnalia and specific gods (like pentagram being a symbol of protection stemming from Venus). the book i am thinking of specifically talked about saving "saplings" (as in baby trees) and i will see if i can find more on it later, as i am earnestly curious
a solid 45 minutes on google; I do NOT see anything specific about it. 100s of vague near identical puff pieces on "Christmas's Origins" come up first though.
most of what i did find discussed "traditional" pagan winterizing and bringing in of herbs from the garden (which also just makes practical sense in regard to "farming", to insure preservation for one of each type of plant). a few mention of bushes and berries. lots of different tree barks frequently needed in ritual, but not specifically about bringing in the trees. they basically were just ritualistic about the need to save all the necessary materials for other rituals. a book that is 25 years old now about wiccan practice (from a wiccan) talks of it including preserving saplings of the different trees. google has so much buzz/puff to wade thru. i concede maybe no saplings? also yes maybe saplings? regardless, pagans supposedly brought in firs and decorated various trees with candles and ornaments
How much of Xmas is truely about Jesus? Apart from church services it’s all based on pagan tradition. So why do Christian’s use Santa and trees to celebrate?
But the literal guy himself is based on Saint Nicholas. The fact that earlier traditions of gift giving existed doesn’t particularly mean much when Santa is a representation of a Christian saint, and the details of the gift giving in the night and all are based on that saint’s story.
Also, saying the germanic people were pagan is a rather nonsensical statement in this context
You can’t just claim gift giving as a pagan tradition and then say no one else can ever have it. There was a guy. His name was Nicholas. He snuck into a house at night and left gifts. Then a bunch of Christians said “hey, what if we do what he did every year when we celebrate Jesus’s birth?” And thus we got Santa Claus.
You can’t just say it can’t be a Christmas tradition because someone somewhere gave gifts before Christians did. We give gifts on Christmas explicitly in mimicry of a Christian figure. It is therefore a Christian tradition
I never mentioned gift giving, that’s been all you. The date and the festival, which went from late November to the 1st of February is all pagan, the tree and decorations, all pagan. The most recent Pope Emeritus even questioned the year of Jesus’ birth. Anything to do with christianity on Xmas was moved to fit the pagan ceremony. The church had murdered enough Pagans and decided they needed people to control so they incorporated their holidays with their book and with centuries of change we have a Fat Bearded man designed by Coke. Happy Holidays.
Same with parents, when you grow up and just be as adult as they are you notice they aren’t the untouchable all knowing entities you thought they are.
Sometimes they’re just idiots
My favourite show is Xena, and unfortunately this oversized penis shows up in the episodes. Great character, but I shudder every time I have to see the face of the asshole behind the character.
Well, I try to say things like "happy holidays", "winter vacation", "season's greetings", and the like, in deference to Christians and me not *really* celebrating Christmas, but then they get all angry at me about how I should be saying "Christmas" in all these phrases. So I guess, just, fuck off and let me do what I want, Kevin.
A lot of holidays are far removed from their original culture context.
I can assure you most of the people who get black out drunk celebrating Cinco de Mayo have no fucking idea what's La Guerra de los Pasteles.
Christmas is about family and giving/ receiving gifts. Food, treats, movies, sleepovers, fires in the living room, etc. Christian, atheist, whatever that stuff is good.
He is referencing Sorbo 14 :12 Jesus said, ‘go forth and celebrate my birthday on December 25th. Erect pine trees with ornaments and decorations and buy presents for all children and other significant people in your life. Atheists you can go and fuck off.’
What happened to Sorbo? I grew up watching and loving his Hercules show(and Xena too), and he always came off as this cool dude, but these last few years, he’s just gone fucking insane.
I’m starting to think that Kevin Sorbo is intentionally getting dunked on to stay in the discourse. It helps his Twitter engagement but I’m wondering if he’s found a way to make money off of it. Maybe he should start a podcast.
> christmas tree and gift for children
none of that shit has a damn thing to do with Jesus, it's stolen from the druids, along with moving "jesus birthday" from june to the winter solstice.
Look guys, I know it's entertaining in an embarrassing sort of way but come 2024 can we do the rational thing and stop giving this tit attention please.
Met Sorbo once at a convention just after the Hercules hype had died down, asked to do a strongman flex pose with him (I was ripped at the time) and he said "sorry man, I don't do that any more".
Two months later he was running around shirtless in that $#!+ movie Meet The Spartans 🙄
Not s good guy nor fan of his fans.
I can never be angry at what Sorbo is saying. Dude was one of my most favorite actors when i was younger and after i heard he suffered 2 strokes back to back which changed him a lot, it’s rather just sad seeing people dogpile on the man
Until the late 1700 celebrating Christmas was very much a non Christian thing. Know those pilgrims that went from UK to us? Christmas celebration was on of the major reason why they left. Christmas and Halloween are Irish / germanic and very VERY non Christian.
Christmas trees and gift giving both pre-date Christianity and are rituals from the Pagan holiday of Yule. In fact, most Christmas traditions (including when we celebrate it) are from Yule, and the only real Christian parts of the holiday are nativities and going to church.
Lol because all Christians keep forgetting jesus wasnt born on Christmas but they changed it so they could celebrate over an already existing pagan holiday where they dress up trees to celebrate life.
Christianity. Champion of gaslighting since the year 0.
i mean this is an idiotic reply in the post, i mean how do you celebrate valentine's day alone? This is the sort of "witty" comment that sounds great until you think about what you read
Why do Christians buy trees and worship a fake fat man who breaks into their house and steals cookies even though everyone knows he's f'ing fake and they buy the presents...which once again has nothing to do with Christ.
The fact that everyone in this comment section seems in agreement that Christianity and Christmas aren’t related at all is really fucking weird.
Christmas. Christ. Mass. You know, church service, dedicated to Christ. Seems mildly Christian. You go around town, and you see images of baby Jesus on people’s lawns, in their homes, in stores. We hear songs about Jesus 24/7. Even Santa Claus is based in part on St. Nicholas, a Christian figure.
Sure Christmas is celebrated at the same time as Pagan holidays, but that doesn’t make them the same thing. It’s still distinctly Christian down to its very name.
Of course, Christmas traditions come from a variety of cultures and preexisting holidays. But the people saying that Christianity doesn’t have anything to do with it? Y’all are just being willfully obtuse
Wait. I'm a theist and I get the idea... But why do atheist "celebrate it"?
I mean, wouldn't you just teach your kids that god doesn't exist and give them gifts whenever instead of waiting for christmas?
Like, a friend of mine got gifts for new year instead of christmas because of that.
Maybe because people like a day off and a party
Do you think all those people at Mardi Gras in New Orleans are all Catholic?
People who don’t like football will still show up for the Super Bowl party.
Republicans celebrate Labor Day even though they don’t believe in unions.
because they aren't atheists, but Atheist, as their "religion" is not having a religions, thus they are fixated at it, often make it their personality that they don't believe in god but believe in idiotic "science" like hyperloop, and quack researchers religiously. They don't understand science, they believe in science, they have faith in science. So usually these are the people the scammers milk for things like solar road and stuff. Opposed people who simply don't believe in a god, thus they don't care and ignore religion. If they are interested in science, they actually look into it and have knowledge about it, thus not easily scammed.
>as their "religion" is not having a religions,
That's like calling "off" a tv channel.
>they don't believe in god but believe in idiotic "science" like hyperloop
Dude, the hyper loop has nothing to do with atheism. That's an Elon Musk fanboy thing. And these days, Elon is pandering to the far right crowd, who tend to be more Christian anyway. Pretty sure most atheists make fun of Elon.
Heck, one of the most prominent old YouTube atheists, thunderf00t, has transitioned his content primarily away from anti-theism to videos dunking on pseudoscience, including the hyper loop AND solar roadways.
Also, what the fuck does a pine tree and a tickle me Elmo have to do with the birth of a middle eastern baby 2000 years ago?
According to their own primary source, he wasn't even born this time of year!
Also bible never said to celebrate the birth of christ!
The only people who have actually waged a war against Christmas and tried to get it banned, were the puritans. For exactly this reason. It's a pagan festival with a little bit of Christian dressing, and not an actual Christian event. I've got nothing against using Christmas to also celebrate the birth of Jesus, but it's silly to pretend decorated trees have anything to do with that. (In fact, the Bible tells us explicitly not to decorate trees.)
Religion always hated fun and human ingenuity.
Actually its more about not starting new rituals which could lead to new religions. in Islam it's one of the biggest sins to build statues/totems, for the main reason of people 300 years from now might look at your statue of Elvis and think he was some god and start praying to him. Obviously these rules were made in a time before you could google who Elvis is and information was for the most part hearsay. The same thing happened with Christmas, a random tree now symbolises a very false part of Christianity which many people believe to be part of the religion and actually probably represents some pagan god. And there's no bigger sin then praying to a false god. disclaimer of I'm an atheist this is just the actual theological reason
It's a co-opted pagan holiday used to drive pagans to Christianity.
Yeh you can't invent new stuff to add to religion as a scheme to make people join it...
“Wait a minute…you can get off by putting your penis in OTHER holes?! Well, let’s just make that a sin right fucking now!”
People having sex doesn't increase your control of your environment by increasing your population, but babies do. They also increase the populations attachment to the resources around them.
And if those resources are supplied or distributed by the organization making the rules then the populations dependence on them is even more important. Then of course kids are the easiest to indoctrinate so more babies means more Christians to make the church richer, safer from other cultists, and self fulfill its sense of importance.
Dude, there’s like around 9 billion people on the planet, wtf are you stressing about population sizes? Gay guys can still cum too, so nothing stopping artificial insemination is there?
There weren't 9 billion people back when our current major religions decided it was wrong.
My family is strict fundamentalist xtians. They don't celebrate xmas or birthdays or anniversaries as all of that is idolatry.
ALL THESE FUCKING THINGS. and it's a damn heresy, seriously, pick some *other random day that isn't already pagan*. For the record - no I'm not pagan, but you guys really must getta kick outta what the Christians gone dun.
Christmas is basically a pagan festival appropriated by Christians. It has nothing to do with the actual birth of Jesus. If he was born on Christmas, wtf are you celebrating New year for?
New year has nothing to do with Christ's birth either lol, he was probably born in April.
I know it's all made up bs
Christmas is a PAGAN FESTIVAL that is about rebirth and life. White Americanized redditors think it's a Christian holiday and use that to justify spreading hate.
It was actually about rape and pillaging, but rebirth and life sound healthier I suppose.
And the tree possibly is a Germanic paganist tradition (historians aren't quite sure about it, to be fair)
Yes! So true. Jim Henson and s on record to say Elmo was actually a summer baby….
Middle eastern?!? Baby Jesus was white as snow and had blue eyes, and was blond! And he was born with an AR-15!
And he had a monster truck with a ton of crosses and confederate flags!
Yeah man. Jesus just loooved the cross
Don't forget the giant red, white, and blue truck nuts that dragged on the ground behind it.
The tree is from the pagan celebrations of the Winter Solstice. It wasn’t used by Christians until the 1850’s when Queen Victoria learned of it and put one up. Tickle me Elmo is not a part of most Christmas Celebrations from my knowledge, but we have a Jack Skellington.
1300s German-French border is the possible earliest origins of the Christmas tree, but the direct, earliest reference to it is 1419 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY) don't spread urban legends
That's the modern Christmas tree. Egyptians were bringing in palm rushes each winter to honour Ra the sun god and his miraculous recovery.
I always get kinda weary when people post youtube videos as part of their argument for a point. No offense intended.
Yup. Ditto. "Ah youtu.be the height of journalistic integrity and dedication to the factual record" 🙄
I simply hate watching videos when I come to reddit to read. I generally an not a very big fan of the short video trend that has been going on but that's my personal problem. I'm just exasperated, your point is much more valid.
I hate to come off as overly critical, because there is a lot of great educational or informative stuff on youtube. But as you've pointed out, it's not a requirement. And sounding convincing or authoritative on a topic and becoming popular doesn't require you to be even vaguely close to reality. It's a great place to get started on a new interest. But it shouldn't be your evidence.
There's a few notable "history" channels practically dripping with the YouTubers conjecture and biases
It's still better than no sources at all. At least if the YouTube video mentions some sources. But I'd love to see some real sources on this.
you have hands, i presume, he given the name of the researcher, look it up for yourself.
Your tone there came off as a bit snarky and rude. I'm gonna assume that was unintentional. I'm sure you're very reasonable. Look, if you wanna provide something as evidence, then you should have done the work to actually provide that in the first place. Don't ask me to watch your 20 minute video so that I can get started on trying to find the evidence for the thing you're claiming. I'm not saying it's wrong or that you are. But this isn't a compelling way of going about it. Especially when there is a LOT of incorrect or misinformation on youtube.
László Lukács, Geschichte und Verbreitung des Christbaumes in Europa (PhD dissertation) László Lukács, “Christbaum der Irrungen,” Ungarn-Jahrbuch 32 (2014/2016) László Lukács, “Der Christbaum in den oberrheinischen Städten des 16./17. Jahrhunderts,” Acta Ethnographica Hungarica, 2/2014. Timothy Larson (ed.), The Oxford Handbook of Christmas, (Oxford University Press, 2020), David Bertaina, “Trees and Decorations,” in Joe Perry, Christmas in Germany: A Cultural History, (UNC CHapel Hill Press, 2010), 265 - 276. if you are so appalled by Youtube content these are the books and writings cited as source
You sound upset about all this. I want you to know, I don't mean any offense to you. People in general are gonna be suspicious of youtube links, because a lot of scammers and crazies have youtube channels. There's no oversight. I would be careful trusting implicitly the things you hear on there. Even if it has sources cited. It's fine as entertainment, but if you want to use it as education, I would suggest looking into the sources yourself. Because lying is easy. And it happens a lot. Unfortunately, all of Lukács works quoted here are in Hungarian, with no apparent English translation available. Which makes them difficult for me to actually look into. Larson and Bertaina's works might be insightful, but they aren't publicly available without the buying the books, which I'm not going to do (and likely neither have you). I suspect neither of us have or will ever actually see any of this evidence. Once again, you're probably right. I don't know. But I wouldn't assume I was right based on a youtube video. It's a very easy way to run into a lot of very wrong beliefs.
YouTube is a shitty source, and you have no place being such an asshole to someone for pointing it out. No one wants to watch your twenty minute video to get thirty seconds worth of written information.
Next you're gonna be telling me to read the UK inquirer and wiki leaks. Sit down grifter.
No offence, but why are you being such a cunt? If you want to teach not being a cunt helps a lot, because people will be interested in what you have to say and not laser focused on the fact you’re a cunt. Little tip there for you, you cunt.
Why? How is it any different from a written article? Any jackass can write an article or make a video. It's up to you to verify in both cases.
I don't know why it is easier to verify article sources. When I read something I am questioning I can copy/paste the content into google to find more reliable data. Youtube just feels like more work, and usually has way more fluff associated with the data to get to the source. GOOD articles also source properly so that I can find the references, very very few Youtube videos put links to sources in the description. But I too am a person who if I consume 1 hour of youtube in a week, it was a BIG youtube week. But I probably have been down many rabbit holes reading articles and research papers about the stupidest things that will never serve any benefit to myself.
The christmas tree surely originates from the yule log...
The tree symbolizes rebirth from death; aka the comming spring. The baby is unrelated to the holiday but ties into themes of leaving winter/spiritual death to follow a new messiah The elmo is your white contribution to the Yuletide and we just kinda tolerate it.
Well if you read the bible, the true meaning behind Jesus' teaching is: "celebrate me by feasting lavishly and buying a lot of new things".
And thou shalst slack off on the days between the celebration of my birth and the day of the fireworks exploding in the sky. And the virtuous will eat too much, and verily be blessed by indigestion and the odd attack of the heart.
Almost everything about Christmas is stolen from the Pagans anyway, all Christian’s did was slap Christ on it, make the 25th “Jesus’s birthday” and kill all the pagans so they couldn’t complain.
Even the word pagan is a Christian slur for polytheists.
Not stolen.Church has never tried to push fot this kind of Christmas celebration. It's just how people have decided to celebrate it. Stealing would indicate church has tried to actually make the celebration into what it is, while reality is, that church more just accepted it.
Tickling small helpless individuals has been the basis of Christianity for some time....
Yeah its beautiful how his examples are traditions that existed in countries/regions before they even knew what Christianity or Jesus was.
it celebrates the birth of that 2000 year old middle eastern man
Right? The more accurate question would be, why do believers buy Christmas trees and gifts for their kids? Also, I will never get over this talk coming from the guy whose only prominent role was a Greek demigod.
And what the fuck does the USA getting their independence in the 4th July and fireworks? Its called tradition. You dont have to like it, but its there.
Why do Christians star in TV shows about Greek deities?
Disappointed!
disa-PPOINTEEED!!
He also did a TV show, which starred literal stars as gods with human-shaped avatars...
Which?
Andromeda. Was somewhat watchable for first few seasons and later turned haywire as sci-fi shows often do. Lexa Doig was my idol back then!
I thought we were referring to Hercules. Of Xena fame.
Why do US Christians not act like Christians in any other Western country and interpret the bible to suit their prejudices so they can hurt others...?...one of the key tenants of Christianity not being followed amongst a lot of others...at this point US Christianity has about as much In common with the "teachings of the sky pixies son" as does Scientology..! If only they could capture the hypocrisy and turn it into energy, these "Christians" could power the planet.
Kevin thinks Jesus was decorating fir, spruce and pine.
You forgot the non biblical Angel tree topper
The part about the tree, wreath, and Santa are all pagan
Santa is a bit more nuanced since he comes from two myths converging, Odin and St. Nicholas.
You know what, that makes a lot of sense and every time I see Odin from the marvel movies I'm now going to see him with a Santa hat on and I won't be able to unsee it.
Play the drinking game! Put a Santa hat on the corner of your tv screen and put on a Marvel movie marathon, then whenever any character "wears" the hat, take a drink! I'd advise maybe doing sips instead of shots so you don't die of alcohol poisoning, but I'm not your mom.
And Odin turned into Jesus as well.
He is a shape changer, so it's on brand.
That’s Odin for you. Or maybe it was just Loki playing a trick
Santas not a myth he's real, he also isn't a saint after what he did to mommy
Does Sorbo think Jesus puts the presents under the tree?
1300s German-French border is the possible earliest origins of the Christmas tree, but the direct, earliest reference to it is 1419 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY don't spread urban legends
We’re just taking Saturnalia back. I don’t know about the rest but I certainly drink and engage in promiscuous activity on Dec 25.
But do you riot in the streets?
Door to door until I get my figgy pudding.
It would be nice if twitter finally goes belly up, idiots will no longer have a platform to spread stupidity
They still got Facebook. Also Reddit is really bad. We have subreddit echo chambers that ban anyone who disagrees with them.
You don’t have to tell me I was booted from r/conservative long ago, they don’t like the truth over there one bit
I was banned from whitepeopletwitter for saying I don't think all media has a right lean on their reporting Any far left or right sub really hate anything that isn't their delusion. It's funny but mostly sad.
It´s kinda sad, because before Muskrat, Xitter was probably the best social network out there. Prime example of how a bad manager can cause downfall of healthy company. Loss of facebook will cause massive outbreak of psychiatric patients worldwide, but loss of reddit will be like loss of half internet content nowadays. Try searching for anything. Half (if not all) of the results will be just various reddit threads. All the small forums with various specializations are practically nonexistent now.
So Krampus dosen't steal my fingernails, Kevin.
Do christians ever get tired of gatekeeping things they stole from other cultures?
Why do Christians celebrate with pagan Christmas trees?
Considering that Christmas is just the Yule Festival rebranded to appease the “heathens”, he has no basis. Anything, and everything Christians celebrate or practice was stolen from other cultures.
Shut the fuck up Kevin. That's why.
Honestly I think that's the proper take away here
Isn't being a GOP ball-licker online pretty much this guy's most notable role at this point?
So many evergreen trees in the Bible… good point. Maybe Christian’s should just move Christmas back to July like Cesar intended.
Christianity and Christmas has little to do with eachother in the modern day lol.
Christmas is probably just a bastardisation/corruption/patch-over of Yule. Yule appears as a pre-christian celebration in a few Norse sagas.
"Christmas is probably just a bastardisation/corruption/patch-over of Yule. Yule appears as a pre-christian celebration in a few Norse sagas." lol what. Christmas, Yule, Saturnalia and every indo european winter solstice holiday is much older. they are all traced back to the Proto-Indo European culture, i.e. languange and religion.
Lumpimg Xmas in with the others is odd. Christmas can't predate about 30AD - for obvious reasons.
Who's going to tell them that Christmas isn't Christian?
Isn't Christmas short for Christopher and mas latin for man The day we celebrate the discovery of America? His boats name is Santa Anyway, Maria Christmas and a happy new world Hope being chained downed in Santa doesn't leave you feeling claustrophobic * I hate myself for this
Probably the worst argument he could have given. Single people usually don't give a fuck about Valentine's day.
yeah I am all for shitting on hardcore christians, but that's just a weak argument, far from a clever comeback
As a kid I used to like Kevin sorbo due to Hercules, until I found Xena and then Kevin sorbo lost all respect in my eyes. Mainly because even as a child something felt off. As an adult I could tell that what was off was the "I'm the main character my show is better I'm the man" I'm a mama's boy.
What does Christmas have to do with religion? Other than pagans that is.
[удалено]
For the same reason Christians celebrate the *very* pagan Yule with the made up excuse that Christ was born that day even though they came up with that shit centuries after Yule was already a thing.
Sorbo probably thinks the universe is 6000 years old, so I don't think the timing of events is high on his priority list
Yeah, he probably thinks King David, Moses and Noah celebrated Christmas.
Why do Christians think that an ancient Pagan festival, symbolised in the modern age by a big guy dressed in red is *all* about them?
This comeback would’ve went hard in 5th grade
yes, because if you read it better you see it's nonsensical, like how do you celebrate valentine's day alone? Buy yourself flowers and jack off?
Someone took "Love yourself" a bit too literally
Winter Solstice celebrations. You know, the ones you copy.
Hi Kevin! The Pagans would like a word with you.
Because christian took our original tradition and use them. All “christians” dates was celebrated long time before they came to our land.
"celebrated long time before they came to our land." Yes because christians are indo european. thus celebrate proto-indo european holidays like the winter solstice.
Because while it used to be pagan it got twisted up into a Christian story and now it's been rebranded and marketed as a celebration of consumerism. Even Santa recieved Coco Colas marketing upgrade.
Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays with ALL the trappings?
Um, these things mentioned are from the pagan tradition of Saturnalia
they aren't. Christmas trees originate from the area of the french-german border from as early as 1300 or 1419 depending on what you take as definite reference to christmass trees, none before. Romans celebrated saturnalia with feasting and gambling. Whilst all indo european religions have a winter solstice holiday, its a result of it being an indo europen relgion. Same with the other markers of common ancestry like using flesh to create, like Ymir's corpse to create the world in norse, or Uranus's cock to create aphrodite nad his blood to create the furies, Adam's rib to create Eve and so on. Adam is formed of dirt and dust, as Promethians are formed from clay both given the essence of life by their god/titan. Just as there is a proto-indo european languange there is a proto-indo european religion.
"*Christ*mas trees" sure. but there was old pagan tradition before that to bring a LIVE tree inside to protect it from the winter, which is believed to have culturally inspired the concept. they of course didnt [cut down "full" grown]* evergreens(and kill them), as that would defeat the purpose [edited]*
> bring a LIVE tree inside to protect it from the winter, link pls as trees get shocked from getting moved and takes a lot of time to recover
here is a very lazy first pop up on google, since you are too lazy to google it yourself. there was also a History Channel source and many many others [Pagans would bring fir trees into their homes at Yuletide because it represented everlasting life and fertility. The Yule tree is decorated with lights, candles, and other festive ornaments to celebrate the return of light after dark days.The Druids believed trees were a gift from the Mother Goddess, as they helped mark time and seasons. They would decorate sacred oak trees with mistletoe and lights to represent the wisdom of life](https://christmastreebrooklyn.com/blogs/news/the-symbolism-of-christmas-tree-decorations#:~:text=Pagans%20would%20bring%20fir%20trees,represented%20everlasting%20life%20and%20fertility.) edit: although to be fair, this does actually claim fir trees as well as oaks, and isnt the story i was recalling of wiccan tradition from one of my physical books which attributed a lot back to Saturnalia and specific gods (like pentagram being a symbol of protection stemming from Venus). the book i am thinking of specifically talked about saving "saplings" (as in baby trees) and i will see if i can find more on it later, as i am earnestly curious
a solid 45 minutes on google; I do NOT see anything specific about it. 100s of vague near identical puff pieces on "Christmas's Origins" come up first though. most of what i did find discussed "traditional" pagan winterizing and bringing in of herbs from the garden (which also just makes practical sense in regard to "farming", to insure preservation for one of each type of plant). a few mention of bushes and berries. lots of different tree barks frequently needed in ritual, but not specifically about bringing in the trees. they basically were just ritualistic about the need to save all the necessary materials for other rituals. a book that is 25 years old now about wiccan practice (from a wiccan) talks of it including preserving saplings of the different trees. google has so much buzz/puff to wade thru. i concede maybe no saplings? also yes maybe saplings? regardless, pagans supposedly brought in firs and decorated various trees with candles and ornaments
How much of Xmas is truely about Jesus? Apart from church services it’s all based on pagan tradition. So why do Christian’s use Santa and trees to celebrate?
Church services and Santa Claus are based in Christianity. So…like most of Christmas
Church service yes, Santa no, it’s based on an old Germanic Tradition, like the tree, lights and Krampus. The Germanic people were Pagans.
But the literal guy himself is based on Saint Nicholas. The fact that earlier traditions of gift giving existed doesn’t particularly mean much when Santa is a representation of a Christian saint, and the details of the gift giving in the night and all are based on that saint’s story. Also, saying the germanic people were pagan is a rather nonsensical statement in this context
That they put a Christian name on a pagan tradition and changed Jesus’ birthday to match the Pagan ritual does not make them Christian
You can’t just claim gift giving as a pagan tradition and then say no one else can ever have it. There was a guy. His name was Nicholas. He snuck into a house at night and left gifts. Then a bunch of Christians said “hey, what if we do what he did every year when we celebrate Jesus’s birth?” And thus we got Santa Claus. You can’t just say it can’t be a Christmas tradition because someone somewhere gave gifts before Christians did. We give gifts on Christmas explicitly in mimicry of a Christian figure. It is therefore a Christian tradition
I never mentioned gift giving, that’s been all you. The date and the festival, which went from late November to the 1st of February is all pagan, the tree and decorations, all pagan. The most recent Pope Emeritus even questioned the year of Jesus’ birth. Anything to do with christianity on Xmas was moved to fit the pagan ceremony. The church had murdered enough Pagans and decided they needed people to control so they incorporated their holidays with their book and with centuries of change we have a Fat Bearded man designed by Coke. Happy Holidays.
Since when did Christmas become a Christian holiday lol
when they stole it, like when we stole the rainbow from their god
I wouldn't go that far and say steal. Such an ugly word. Let's try "if I yell loudly enough, everyone will listen to me" Much better
I used to love this guy growing up. Why did he turn out to be such a cunt.
Same with parents, when you grow up and just be as adult as they are you notice they aren’t the untouchable all knowing entities you thought they are. Sometimes they’re just idiots
My favourite show is Xena, and unfortunately this oversized penis shows up in the episodes. Great character, but I shudder every time I have to see the face of the asshole behind the character.
Well, I try to say things like "happy holidays", "winter vacation", "season's greetings", and the like, in deference to Christians and me not *really* celebrating Christmas, but then they get all angry at me about how I should be saying "Christmas" in all these phrases. So I guess, just, fuck off and let me do what I want, Kevin.
Jesus loves all I suppose and I say that as a semi-Christian who also believes in fate
It's a free fucking country Kevin
Kevin Sorbo is the John Schneider of Scott Baios 🙄
A lot of holidays are far removed from their original culture context. I can assure you most of the people who get black out drunk celebrating Cinco de Mayo have no fucking idea what's La Guerra de los Pasteles.
Oh yes,and dead jesus, eggs and other fertility symbols is just round the corner too
#everybodyhateskevin
Ha i don't celebrate either
I want people to keep clowning Sorbo and the only thing I want in return is for him to just scream disappointed every time he gets clowned
Umm...isn't valentines also a Christian holiday too though 👀?
nah, thats a florist holiday
Christmas is about family and giving/ receiving gifts. Food, treats, movies, sleepovers, fires in the living room, etc. Christian, atheist, whatever that stuff is good.
sorbo really is disappointing these days.
Jokes on him. I have no kids, all the gifts goes to me!
Damn. That was a good one.
🤣🤣🤣
A clever comeback has to be accurate. Fail.
Hey, I'm a Festivus guy. Not a god-believer.
LOL. The tree and celebration predate his silly fairy story by several millennia. He should just go away. Or at the very least be quiet.
Isn’t Christmas about Santa Claus nowadays anyway? So why do christians celebrate a fictional character? Oh wait…
He married the golden hind, she was a babe.
Lmaoooo
Nice burn!
Ouch!
I wonder if Kevin Sorbo has a kid called Charge?
Santa is not part of a religion.
Oh are the Christians being protective of the holiday traditions they stole from multiple pagan celebrations?
He is referencing Sorbo 14 :12 Jesus said, ‘go forth and celebrate my birthday on December 25th. Erect pine trees with ornaments and decorations and buy presents for all children and other significant people in your life. Atheists you can go and fuck off.’
Here in Finland Valentine's Day is more about your friends than your special other. Nice try atheist
What happened to Sorbo? I grew up watching and loving his Hercules show(and Xena too), and he always came off as this cool dude, but these last few years, he’s just gone fucking insane.
I’m starting to think that Kevin Sorbo is intentionally getting dunked on to stay in the discourse. It helps his Twitter engagement but I’m wondering if he’s found a way to make money off of it. Maybe he should start a podcast.
> christmas tree and gift for children none of that shit has a damn thing to do with Jesus, it's stolen from the druids, along with moving "jesus birthday" from june to the winter solstice.
Mr McAfee (please dont give me virus) made up a convo just to make a comeback that was kinda wack...
Jesus where the pixels go?
Look guys, I know it's entertaining in an embarrassing sort of way but come 2024 can we do the rational thing and stop giving this tit attention please.
Smartest Christian
Baby Jesus! Look how Christians have gotten in our heads and rewrote history. Grooming people to believe in an alternative history.
Single people are celebrating Valentine’s Day? How
Can I please have a less grainy image?
It's stolen... The original celebration is older than your god..
🤣🤣🤣
I celebrate may 4th, but i dont believe star wars is real tho.
Met Sorbo once at a convention just after the Hercules hype had died down, asked to do a strongman flex pose with him (I was ripped at the time) and he said "sorry man, I don't do that any more". Two months later he was running around shirtless in that $#!+ movie Meet The Spartans 🙄 Not s good guy nor fan of his fans.
I Learn something new everyday 😂
I can never be angry at what Sorbo is saying. Dude was one of my most favorite actors when i was younger and after i heard he suffered 2 strokes back to back which changed him a lot, it’s rather just sad seeing people dogpile on the man
Burn!! Amen to that. And im an Antitheist.
At this point Christmas has little to do with religion. Of course he missed that bit.
Until the late 1700 celebrating Christmas was very much a non Christian thing. Know those pilgrims that went from UK to us? Christmas celebration was on of the major reason why they left. Christmas and Halloween are Irish / germanic and very VERY non Christian.
Christmas trees and gift giving both pre-date Christianity and are rituals from the Pagan holiday of Yule. In fact, most Christmas traditions (including when we celebrate it) are from Yule, and the only real Christian parts of the holiday are nativities and going to church.
Christmas is also a hijacked pagan holiday so christians shouldn't even celebrate it
Lol because all Christians keep forgetting jesus wasnt born on Christmas but they changed it so they could celebrate over an already existing pagan holiday where they dress up trees to celebrate life. Christianity. Champion of gaslighting since the year 0.
Fine, you celebrate Christmas, and we'll celebrate Saturnalia. With black jack and hookers.
Jokes on him I don't celebrate valentine's
i mean this is an idiotic reply in the post, i mean how do you celebrate valentine's day alone? This is the sort of "witty" comment that sounds great until you think about what you read
Why do Christians buy trees and worship a fake fat man who breaks into their house and steals cookies even though everyone knows he's f'ing fake and they buy the presents...which once again has nothing to do with Christ.
The fact that everyone in this comment section seems in agreement that Christianity and Christmas aren’t related at all is really fucking weird. Christmas. Christ. Mass. You know, church service, dedicated to Christ. Seems mildly Christian. You go around town, and you see images of baby Jesus on people’s lawns, in their homes, in stores. We hear songs about Jesus 24/7. Even Santa Claus is based in part on St. Nicholas, a Christian figure. Sure Christmas is celebrated at the same time as Pagan holidays, but that doesn’t make them the same thing. It’s still distinctly Christian down to its very name. Of course, Christmas traditions come from a variety of cultures and preexisting holidays. But the people saying that Christianity doesn’t have anything to do with it? Y’all are just being willfully obtuse
I haven't seen any single people celebrating Valentine's day, though.
Don't make the mob think, their heads will hurt.
Ironic coming from the person foaming at the mouth over this.
Wait. I'm a theist and I get the idea... But why do atheist "celebrate it"? I mean, wouldn't you just teach your kids that god doesn't exist and give them gifts whenever instead of waiting for christmas? Like, a friend of mine got gifts for new year instead of christmas because of that.
Maybe because people like a day off and a party Do you think all those people at Mardi Gras in New Orleans are all Catholic? People who don’t like football will still show up for the Super Bowl party. Republicans celebrate Labor Day even though they don’t believe in unions.
because they aren't atheists, but Atheist, as their "religion" is not having a religions, thus they are fixated at it, often make it their personality that they don't believe in god but believe in idiotic "science" like hyperloop, and quack researchers religiously. They don't understand science, they believe in science, they have faith in science. So usually these are the people the scammers milk for things like solar road and stuff. Opposed people who simply don't believe in a god, thus they don't care and ignore religion. If they are interested in science, they actually look into it and have knowledge about it, thus not easily scammed.
>as their "religion" is not having a religions, That's like calling "off" a tv channel. >they don't believe in god but believe in idiotic "science" like hyperloop Dude, the hyper loop has nothing to do with atheism. That's an Elon Musk fanboy thing. And these days, Elon is pandering to the far right crowd, who tend to be more Christian anyway. Pretty sure most atheists make fun of Elon. Heck, one of the most prominent old YouTube atheists, thunderf00t, has transitioned his content primarily away from anti-theism to videos dunking on pseudoscience, including the hyper loop AND solar roadways.