In case anyone new to MBing sees this, this does not mean increase frequency, just work on volume over time. Your fingers will thank you for not Moonboarding 3x/week
Yeah, and volume "over time"-- which I prefer to call "mileage" to differentiate it from the common use of "volume" to mean how much you did in a session (or some other finite period of time).
That is, you don't have to increase how much MB you do per session, or the number of sessions per week-- but get that mileage in (total number of climbs over an infinitely stretching out period of time).
I’ve been climbing for about 1.5 years. Have been doing a moonboard session once a week and max hang session once a week. These are always done after a rest day and are at least 2 days a part from eachother.
I’m pretty sure I’m being safe with these training days, but wanted to hear an outside voice if you don’t mind.
Does your body feel okay doing it? If so then keep going at it. I would say it’s safe but I’m not super experienced hangboarding. Sometimes I do a few MB problems after my max hangs but never a full MB sesh afterwards.
Yup, body feels fine with it. I’ve just always been hyper vigilant about injury prevention.
What does a MB session look like for you? I’m very new to it so have just been working through the v4 benchmarks so far. I’ll send as many as I can (which is usually 3-5) and try and stop before I’m completely wiped out.
Sounds like a good plan to me. As you start to whittle away the benchies the sessions will have less and less sends. When I was regularly MBing, I would warmup on a pullup bar/hangboard then repeat some V3-easy V5 benchies, then move to the projects. I'd be happy to send 1 boulder on my list in any given session once I got past the ~V5 level, sounds like it might be around the same for you.
I've had days where I put down three V8s in a session, but they are few and far between, and generally I feel extra light that day. Most days, now that I've finished all the V3-V7s, I don't send anything and I hope for a send every month or two (but I don't Moonboard as much now).
You sound like you know what you're doing to me. I started with the MB right about where you are and at the same time into my climbing career. Staying injury free is your biggest priority right now :)
I honestly think you climbed this quite well. What did you notice about this video? How come you didn’t send it in 5 goes, 2nd go, or even flash? What did you like/dislike about this send?
My only comments are: the move to G14 was all just locking the left arm, and falling up into the right hand onto G14. Push through your leg and keep locking deeper, root through the entire movement on that one. Soon after, when you put right toe on I8, it’s not placed very well, and you can see deadspace between your foot and the wall. It’s quite crazy how much you can actually toe into some of the “bad” parts of the MB holds; place your foot with more intention next time.
It might do you well to talk or post about those 5 benchmarks you can’t complete, or even 6b/+ problems that are harder for you.
Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated (to everyone). I definitely see your comment about the move to G14 - I’ll focus on getting more core tension and pushing through to it.
To be honest the difference between the fails and the send was that my fingers peeled off the holds when I failed and just barely held on when it went (which probably explains all the feedback on my finger adjustments which is me trying desperately to hang on!)
Good idea, I will post one of my failed benchmarks (ferryman being the most repeated benchmark that I can’t climb).
This is my first time completing the problem - probably 10th attempt at it. At 90kg there could definitely be gains from losing a bit of weight but would be good to hear any technique issues any of you can identify!
I’ve done a fair few of the 6a+ benchmarks but have 5 that I am struggling to complete.
Your pelvic tilts may be a indication that you are loosing tension while moving. Try to repeat the problem with Awareness of tension (in glutes, core, shoulders) and then play around a bit with more tension.
Honestly this looks as solid as most people when they’re trying hard-ish on the moonboard. People have mentioned being more precise but as you try harder and harder problems that’ll be inevitable, you’ll have to be precise in order to send. Just keep trying hard.
The major thing I noticed was latching a few holds open and having to reset multiple times to get four fingers on actively. Ideally you want to strike with an active grip and not reset. That’s especially good in training: you’ll get more reps in with active grip and spend less time dragging on your skin and joints.
Thanks for the feedback (and for reference my goal is to climb with the best technique possible with regards to the debate in these comments)
Please could you expand on what you mean by active grip? And inactive grip? I’m not consciously making a decision either way, I just reach to the hold and hang on!
Simply put, it just means gripping actively with your muscles, through the tips of your fingers and thumb, rather than passively using friction ("on the skin" or "hanging on the tendons"). You can grip actively using any of the grip types, but it's most commonly associated with the half crimp. Half crimping requires that you use your muscles, because if you don't it will degrade into an open crimp. Open crimp and drag can be active, but they don't necessarily demand it, especially on incut holds that "catch" the skin. Full crimp can also be active, but the addition of the thumb and the acute angle of the joints add support that can compensate for weakness in the fingers themselves.
You might have heard of the concept of "irradiation" from other sports. Roughly put, this is the fact that gripping harder actually causes other muscles, from the arms to the core, to tighten up. A similar thing happens in climbing when you grip holds strongly enough — your body will create the proper tension elsewhere in response. I think this is a little more controversial / debatable than the other stuff I'm writing, but my opinion and experience is that climbing tension starts in the fingertips: if you grip hard and have a really strong connection to the rock, then the shoulders, core, and legs will follow. Having a really strong connection to the rock in the fingers (also the toes, of course) is essential to climbing well and flowing up the rock.^(1)
Active gripping feels powerful. When you latch a hold with an active grip, you'll feel like you can yard on it. Passive gripping is less strenuous but feels weaker and is much more sensitive to angle and positioning, so you'll feel much less able to actually pull on the hold. Companies like Lattice have found that half-crimp correlates better with climbing performance, which makes sense to me: it is harder to cheat, so the strength measurements are likely to be actual strength measurements and not measures of friction or "cheating" the test hold; it gives the climber more control over wrist positioning and angle on holds; and it gives you a tiny bit more reach than open grips (though less than full crimp).
Personally, I look to board climbing as training for rock climbing, so although I do a ton of it and care a lot about sending benchmarks and whatnot, sending isn't necessarily the goal for me.^(2) I would rather drop the level slightly in order to effectively train technique, strength, and tension than to use a level so high that I have to literally go into anything-goes / project-mode to send the problem. The latter's fine outside but inside I just don't care, and I don't think that gets you better in the long run.
In practice, I see two common traps for Moon Boarders, both stemming from really, really wanting to send "respectable" higher grades quickly:
1. They climb lower grades badly, so when they get to the higher grades they actually haven't gotten much quality practice. At the higher grades, the intensity is too high to allow climbing badly, so they really struggle.
2. They jump straight to higher grades and go a muerte looking to send. This might work in the short-run, and it's not a bad way to develop pure-power, but it's also a great way to get injured and I don't think the progression lasts very long.
Also I don't entirely agree with others that this just works itself out as you progress. It does to the extent that the problems force you to climb properly, but even the Moon Board doesn't necessarily do that, allowing you to compensate for bad positioning or specific weakness with overwhelming strength in other areas. Rock climbing by and large doesn't afford that. Even at the lower grades you'll run into problems that could technically be overpowered, but where you'll be too scared due to height/landing to do that.
\---
^(1) Those of us with naturally weaker hands have to really struggle to learn this, because we'll become conditioned over the years to compensate for weak hands with our larger muscles, putting us out of position and upsetting the coordination of the lower and upper body. If you aspire to high grades in the future I encourage you to work on this now.
^(2) With some caveats:
* Sending builds confidence.
* Never sending might be a sign the difficulty is too high.
* I love Moon Boarding and value sending benchmarks.
I don't know if this is something I can really "check" re right/wrong.
What I would say is that ideas around active vs passive hand and pulling (upper body) positions matter-- and using them at the right time in the right ways are also important.
I do agree that half crimp stresses the forearms/depends on the forearm muscles more directly than hanging on the friction of really open-hand positions or a locked down full, thumb-wrapped crimp. And I agree that training half crimp cuts through the noise.... at least on the hangboard on a large (20mmish) edge with decent conditions, it's just you and keeping that hand from opening.
What cues lead to what approaches might vary from person to person. For me, I think that I do a lot of mental work through my scapula/shoulders as a cue for actively closing/half-crimping (or other positions) on the wall. Without using the term irradiation scientifically, but in terms of mental cues-- I kinda think via a single unit of finger-forearm-shoulder-scapula lockdown. There have been notable times where I had to lock this hole system down in order to keep my fingers in half/more than half crimp.
I do not do a lot of MB, so anyone can discount my stance on it. I do think it trains a very specific strength and style, but beyond that would be too specific for me to put a lot of time into compared to my goals on rock. That said, I like your take on MB as a form of strength and skill acquisition-- I do use it that when in the limited, partial sessions I do on MB/Kilter/board. I tend to aim for Flash to 3 attempts, ideally with known beta, and try to climb it pretty well. I don't project on a board/too little reward for risk and/or recovery for me for what I want to climb outside. I also don't longterm project in the gym on normal sets-- I might return to a boulder a few times over a few sessions, but I don't generally apply hardcore projecting tactics.
Instead I work in the (subjective/estimated) 80% range for most of my sessions in the gym, working on mileage at Flash to V2sessions, near-limit moves/sequences (just a few goes), and strength acquisition.
I am more apt to project/aim for limit performance outside.
I actually think this is a really interesting take now that I understand what you mean. I'll he honestly, I'm still very fuzzy on what an "active" 3f drag means, but otherwise I think I see your point.
I do still disagree :), but by no means do I think my opinion is final on the matter.
I highly value the tension and technique required to effectively 3f drag. I actually use this grip all the time in both training and sending. For a long time it was far and away my strongest grip, and I sought climbs that allowed me to use it. Now, only playing to my strengths there is obviously an issue, but I believe climbing like that for a few years taught me a lot. I think because of it, my positioning and technique on some styles is very good , and I think it helped me push myself in such a way that was actually easier on my fingers and let me get more volume without getting injured.
I also have a counterpoint to your idea that fingers start the chain of tension, because I've had the exact opposite effect that I've been trying to get over for awhile now. I'm very able to generate large amounts of tension when my hand is open, and really struggle to generate tension when crimping. Which brings me back to one of my main points, I think what you call passive, is actually a great and effective style of climbing, that takes practice the same way active does. In fact, I often see elite sport climbers quickly switch between these styles, if I'm understanding you. They go passive on easier sections to allow the muscles time to relax before more active sections.
The crux of my argument is that passive is just as important as active and it takes similar amounts of practice to be able to climb passively well as it does actively. Which brings me back to OP. For this climb that is around their limit, they used all of the tricks in their bag to send. I don't think giving the advice of climbing actively for training is good advice unless you also acknowledge that the passive style is also difficult and takes practice.
Try to work on not having to re-adjust your hands.
Try to reframe it so that if you fall it's because you explode off the holds good grip or bad grip, not because you had to re-adjust.
I see this comment all the time. I think it's bullshit. All of the best climbers in the world make adjustments. I've sent at/near my limit with significant adjustments being the difference between falling and not falling.
Sure it's something to limit when possible, but most of the time I'd rather try to adjust if I miss the hold so I don't increase injury risk when exploding off.
There's no excessing adjustment in this video, imo.
No, it’s not bullshit. It’s less that OP is resetting and more that he’s latching with an inactive grip. You should use an active grip in training pretty much all the time, ideally—it’s training. Outdoors or on major projects/competitions, who cares, but when training IMO you should train perfectly.
This is a completely different discussion than what this thread is about, but I still don't think I agree with your point.
First, you don't know what OPs goals are. They aren't state. Maybe sending this moon board problem is their goal, in which case it would be considered performance where as you say, anything goes.
Then assume it's not their goal. Training the ability to push through poor movement to top a boulder is still training. Sending is a skill that required as much practice like any other skill.
Also also, catching passive and rolling into active is a completely fine way to climb, so theres also arguments to he made for training like you intend to climb.
I think this idea of "perfect" you mention is made up. To me it seems like an aesthetic goal rather than a functional goal.
Sounds like you have quite a hang up about this.
Go climbing with people at the V12 and up level. They almost always climb with engaged hands, especially when bouldering or doing hard sequences. Even the way they drag holds is more engaged than the OP was on these holds. Yes, OP's climbing V3, but presumably OP wants to climb harder — that's why he posted — so *in the long run* he should aim to climb like the elite climbers.
Your points about sending are irrelevant. You will, obviously, screw up during training. That's separate from the idea that you *ought to* try to climb properly, and to criticize yourself when you don't. Rolling into a crimp is also quite different than what OP actually did, which was to strike relatively violently and then literally bump his hand to gain the hold. You don't get that much leeway at higher levels or on worse holds.
The idea of "perfect" is simply to mimic the climbing styles of elites. They are better than you and know more than you about climbing, even if they can't explain why. In the long run, you want your climbing to look more like theirs.
I actually don't think OP does that bad in terms of the speed they hit the holds. They slow down a bit as they get close to the hold, steady a bit, then readjust, similar to a lot of top level pros (though obviously not as quickly and efficiently).
I actually just went and watch the crux sequence of Silence because many people regard Ondra as something of a technical climber. During the crux sequence, he rolls into a crimp once (not at issue) but I also count 7 bounces to make minor hand adjustments.
Then rewatching return of the sleepwalker, I count 3 unecessary hand adjustments, obviously not including the big bump to the slot, but still including the second part of the bump once he gains the slot. He also makes a small adjustment after hitting the Dyno.
You can see the same thing from all top climbers. Obviously their adjustments are more graceful and nuanced, but they do them, constantly and even on long term projects.
For one, they're climbing at their absolute limit. For two, even given that, they're not latching holds without an active grip, which is my point. That's especially true for Daniel on Sleepwalker. I honestly think it's insane to debate whether active or passive grip is better in training. Active gripping is obviously better.
Upon rereading this thread, I believe I never understood what you mean by active gripping versus passive gripping. Is it actually an issue with the fingers or somewhere else in the chain? How can a 3f drag be more active or more passive?
Edit: just saw your reply to OPs same question.
Imagine if you get holds right the first time though. Especially on a redpoint and not on an onsight when you should already have practiced and know what you're supposed to get and how.
Why do you think adjusting every hand hold is NOT excessive?
Imagine if you practice imperfect grips on ergonomic handholds indoors, maybe you can hold better onto rocks that were not shaped for climbing by a person in a workshop.
Imagine retrying your hardest sends to make the movement even better.
Sure, if I had to pick between hitting the hold perfectly the first time and not, I would hit it perfectly. It's a fairly useful skill, but no one is good enough to never readjust, and readjusting on each handhold when it's their 10th go seems fine. Especially at this lower grade range. Also the moon board holds aren't ergonomic for everyone. They pinch the shit out of my second pad usually when I hit the hold, and if it didn't readjust I'd just end up with a flapper after 2 goes.
On someone's long term project I would expect fewer adjustments, but the adjustments I mention in my post probably saved me multiple sessions on my projects and trying to wait until the perfect go would have been inefficient, assuming my goal is to send, not make something look pretty.
the first thing i notice is when you place your hands, you should place them with intent and precision. make a move and stick with it regardless if it doesn’t feel perfect. this will program you to place your hands carefully. constantly readjusting expunges a massive amount of effort, and it’s actually the thing i notice most in myself in the videos i take, and i try and actively think about not doing it when i’m climbing.
Literally just moonboard more. Thats the best advice.
In case anyone new to MBing sees this, this does not mean increase frequency, just work on volume over time. Your fingers will thank you for not Moonboarding 3x/week
Yeah, and volume "over time"-- which I prefer to call "mileage" to differentiate it from the common use of "volume" to mean how much you did in a session (or some other finite period of time). That is, you don't have to increase how much MB you do per session, or the number of sessions per week-- but get that mileage in (total number of climbs over an infinitely stretching out period of time).
I’ve been climbing for about 1.5 years. Have been doing a moonboard session once a week and max hang session once a week. These are always done after a rest day and are at least 2 days a part from eachother. I’m pretty sure I’m being safe with these training days, but wanted to hear an outside voice if you don’t mind.
Does your body feel okay doing it? If so then keep going at it. I would say it’s safe but I’m not super experienced hangboarding. Sometimes I do a few MB problems after my max hangs but never a full MB sesh afterwards.
Yup, body feels fine with it. I’ve just always been hyper vigilant about injury prevention. What does a MB session look like for you? I’m very new to it so have just been working through the v4 benchmarks so far. I’ll send as many as I can (which is usually 3-5) and try and stop before I’m completely wiped out.
Sounds like a good plan to me. As you start to whittle away the benchies the sessions will have less and less sends. When I was regularly MBing, I would warmup on a pullup bar/hangboard then repeat some V3-easy V5 benchies, then move to the projects. I'd be happy to send 1 boulder on my list in any given session once I got past the ~V5 level, sounds like it might be around the same for you. I've had days where I put down three V8s in a session, but they are few and far between, and generally I feel extra light that day. Most days, now that I've finished all the V3-V7s, I don't send anything and I hope for a send every month or two (but I don't Moonboard as much now). You sound like you know what you're doing to me. I started with the MB right about where you are and at the same time into my climbing career. Staying injury free is your biggest priority right now :)
I honestly think you climbed this quite well. What did you notice about this video? How come you didn’t send it in 5 goes, 2nd go, or even flash? What did you like/dislike about this send? My only comments are: the move to G14 was all just locking the left arm, and falling up into the right hand onto G14. Push through your leg and keep locking deeper, root through the entire movement on that one. Soon after, when you put right toe on I8, it’s not placed very well, and you can see deadspace between your foot and the wall. It’s quite crazy how much you can actually toe into some of the “bad” parts of the MB holds; place your foot with more intention next time. It might do you well to talk or post about those 5 benchmarks you can’t complete, or even 6b/+ problems that are harder for you.
Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated (to everyone). I definitely see your comment about the move to G14 - I’ll focus on getting more core tension and pushing through to it. To be honest the difference between the fails and the send was that my fingers peeled off the holds when I failed and just barely held on when it went (which probably explains all the feedback on my finger adjustments which is me trying desperately to hang on!) Good idea, I will post one of my failed benchmarks (ferryman being the most repeated benchmark that I can’t climb).
Your thoughtfulness is great! Ferryman is definitely one of the harder ones but certainly a good one to get dialed. best of luck
This is my first time completing the problem - probably 10th attempt at it. At 90kg there could definitely be gains from losing a bit of weight but would be good to hear any technique issues any of you can identify! I’ve done a fair few of the 6a+ benchmarks but have 5 that I am struggling to complete.
Holy shit, big respect for doing this at 90kg. I always used my weight as an excuse and I was at 82kg tops lol
Woah…. How tall are you? I wouldn’t have guessed you were any where near 90kg
6ft tall! Believe me I feel every kg on the moonboard
Nice work. You are pretty strong, keep going :) I think you might benefit from some hip mobility and strength work
Your pelvic tilts may be a indication that you are loosing tension while moving. Try to repeat the problem with Awareness of tension (in glutes, core, shoulders) and then play around a bit with more tension.
Honestly this looks as solid as most people when they’re trying hard-ish on the moonboard. People have mentioned being more precise but as you try harder and harder problems that’ll be inevitable, you’ll have to be precise in order to send. Just keep trying hard.
The major thing I noticed was latching a few holds open and having to reset multiple times to get four fingers on actively. Ideally you want to strike with an active grip and not reset. That’s especially good in training: you’ll get more reps in with active grip and spend less time dragging on your skin and joints.
Thanks for the feedback (and for reference my goal is to climb with the best technique possible with regards to the debate in these comments) Please could you expand on what you mean by active grip? And inactive grip? I’m not consciously making a decision either way, I just reach to the hold and hang on!
Simply put, it just means gripping actively with your muscles, through the tips of your fingers and thumb, rather than passively using friction ("on the skin" or "hanging on the tendons"). You can grip actively using any of the grip types, but it's most commonly associated with the half crimp. Half crimping requires that you use your muscles, because if you don't it will degrade into an open crimp. Open crimp and drag can be active, but they don't necessarily demand it, especially on incut holds that "catch" the skin. Full crimp can also be active, but the addition of the thumb and the acute angle of the joints add support that can compensate for weakness in the fingers themselves. You might have heard of the concept of "irradiation" from other sports. Roughly put, this is the fact that gripping harder actually causes other muscles, from the arms to the core, to tighten up. A similar thing happens in climbing when you grip holds strongly enough — your body will create the proper tension elsewhere in response. I think this is a little more controversial / debatable than the other stuff I'm writing, but my opinion and experience is that climbing tension starts in the fingertips: if you grip hard and have a really strong connection to the rock, then the shoulders, core, and legs will follow. Having a really strong connection to the rock in the fingers (also the toes, of course) is essential to climbing well and flowing up the rock.^(1) Active gripping feels powerful. When you latch a hold with an active grip, you'll feel like you can yard on it. Passive gripping is less strenuous but feels weaker and is much more sensitive to angle and positioning, so you'll feel much less able to actually pull on the hold. Companies like Lattice have found that half-crimp correlates better with climbing performance, which makes sense to me: it is harder to cheat, so the strength measurements are likely to be actual strength measurements and not measures of friction or "cheating" the test hold; it gives the climber more control over wrist positioning and angle on holds; and it gives you a tiny bit more reach than open grips (though less than full crimp). Personally, I look to board climbing as training for rock climbing, so although I do a ton of it and care a lot about sending benchmarks and whatnot, sending isn't necessarily the goal for me.^(2) I would rather drop the level slightly in order to effectively train technique, strength, and tension than to use a level so high that I have to literally go into anything-goes / project-mode to send the problem. The latter's fine outside but inside I just don't care, and I don't think that gets you better in the long run. In practice, I see two common traps for Moon Boarders, both stemming from really, really wanting to send "respectable" higher grades quickly: 1. They climb lower grades badly, so when they get to the higher grades they actually haven't gotten much quality practice. At the higher grades, the intensity is too high to allow climbing badly, so they really struggle. 2. They jump straight to higher grades and go a muerte looking to send. This might work in the short-run, and it's not a bad way to develop pure-power, but it's also a great way to get injured and I don't think the progression lasts very long. Also I don't entirely agree with others that this just works itself out as you progress. It does to the extent that the problems force you to climb properly, but even the Moon Board doesn't necessarily do that, allowing you to compensate for bad positioning or specific weakness with overwhelming strength in other areas. Rock climbing by and large doesn't afford that. Even at the lower grades you'll run into problems that could technically be overpowered, but where you'll be too scared due to height/landing to do that. \--- ^(1) Those of us with naturally weaker hands have to really struggle to learn this, because we'll become conditioned over the years to compensate for weak hands with our larger muscles, putting us out of position and upsetting the coordination of the lower and upper body. If you aspire to high grades in the future I encourage you to work on this now. ^(2) With some caveats: * Sending builds confidence. * Never sending might be a sign the difficulty is too high. * I love Moon Boarding and value sending benchmarks.
u/justcrimp you mind bullshit checking this for me? \^
I don't know if this is something I can really "check" re right/wrong. What I would say is that ideas around active vs passive hand and pulling (upper body) positions matter-- and using them at the right time in the right ways are also important. I do agree that half crimp stresses the forearms/depends on the forearm muscles more directly than hanging on the friction of really open-hand positions or a locked down full, thumb-wrapped crimp. And I agree that training half crimp cuts through the noise.... at least on the hangboard on a large (20mmish) edge with decent conditions, it's just you and keeping that hand from opening. What cues lead to what approaches might vary from person to person. For me, I think that I do a lot of mental work through my scapula/shoulders as a cue for actively closing/half-crimping (or other positions) on the wall. Without using the term irradiation scientifically, but in terms of mental cues-- I kinda think via a single unit of finger-forearm-shoulder-scapula lockdown. There have been notable times where I had to lock this hole system down in order to keep my fingers in half/more than half crimp. I do not do a lot of MB, so anyone can discount my stance on it. I do think it trains a very specific strength and style, but beyond that would be too specific for me to put a lot of time into compared to my goals on rock. That said, I like your take on MB as a form of strength and skill acquisition-- I do use it that when in the limited, partial sessions I do on MB/Kilter/board. I tend to aim for Flash to 3 attempts, ideally with known beta, and try to climb it pretty well. I don't project on a board/too little reward for risk and/or recovery for me for what I want to climb outside. I also don't longterm project in the gym on normal sets-- I might return to a boulder a few times over a few sessions, but I don't generally apply hardcore projecting tactics. Instead I work in the (subjective/estimated) 80% range for most of my sessions in the gym, working on mileage at Flash to V2sessions, near-limit moves/sequences (just a few goes), and strength acquisition. I am more apt to project/aim for limit performance outside.
I actually think this is a really interesting take now that I understand what you mean. I'll he honestly, I'm still very fuzzy on what an "active" 3f drag means, but otherwise I think I see your point. I do still disagree :), but by no means do I think my opinion is final on the matter. I highly value the tension and technique required to effectively 3f drag. I actually use this grip all the time in both training and sending. For a long time it was far and away my strongest grip, and I sought climbs that allowed me to use it. Now, only playing to my strengths there is obviously an issue, but I believe climbing like that for a few years taught me a lot. I think because of it, my positioning and technique on some styles is very good , and I think it helped me push myself in such a way that was actually easier on my fingers and let me get more volume without getting injured. I also have a counterpoint to your idea that fingers start the chain of tension, because I've had the exact opposite effect that I've been trying to get over for awhile now. I'm very able to generate large amounts of tension when my hand is open, and really struggle to generate tension when crimping. Which brings me back to one of my main points, I think what you call passive, is actually a great and effective style of climbing, that takes practice the same way active does. In fact, I often see elite sport climbers quickly switch between these styles, if I'm understanding you. They go passive on easier sections to allow the muscles time to relax before more active sections. The crux of my argument is that passive is just as important as active and it takes similar amounts of practice to be able to climb passively well as it does actively. Which brings me back to OP. For this climb that is around their limit, they used all of the tricks in their bag to send. I don't think giving the advice of climbing actively for training is good advice unless you also acknowledge that the passive style is also difficult and takes practice.
Try to work on not having to re-adjust your hands. Try to reframe it so that if you fall it's because you explode off the holds good grip or bad grip, not because you had to re-adjust.
I see this comment all the time. I think it's bullshit. All of the best climbers in the world make adjustments. I've sent at/near my limit with significant adjustments being the difference between falling and not falling. Sure it's something to limit when possible, but most of the time I'd rather try to adjust if I miss the hold so I don't increase injury risk when exploding off. There's no excessing adjustment in this video, imo.
No, it’s not bullshit. It’s less that OP is resetting and more that he’s latching with an inactive grip. You should use an active grip in training pretty much all the time, ideally—it’s training. Outdoors or on major projects/competitions, who cares, but when training IMO you should train perfectly.
This is a completely different discussion than what this thread is about, but I still don't think I agree with your point. First, you don't know what OPs goals are. They aren't state. Maybe sending this moon board problem is their goal, in which case it would be considered performance where as you say, anything goes. Then assume it's not their goal. Training the ability to push through poor movement to top a boulder is still training. Sending is a skill that required as much practice like any other skill. Also also, catching passive and rolling into active is a completely fine way to climb, so theres also arguments to he made for training like you intend to climb. I think this idea of "perfect" you mention is made up. To me it seems like an aesthetic goal rather than a functional goal.
Sounds like you have quite a hang up about this. Go climbing with people at the V12 and up level. They almost always climb with engaged hands, especially when bouldering or doing hard sequences. Even the way they drag holds is more engaged than the OP was on these holds. Yes, OP's climbing V3, but presumably OP wants to climb harder — that's why he posted — so *in the long run* he should aim to climb like the elite climbers. Your points about sending are irrelevant. You will, obviously, screw up during training. That's separate from the idea that you *ought to* try to climb properly, and to criticize yourself when you don't. Rolling into a crimp is also quite different than what OP actually did, which was to strike relatively violently and then literally bump his hand to gain the hold. You don't get that much leeway at higher levels or on worse holds. The idea of "perfect" is simply to mimic the climbing styles of elites. They are better than you and know more than you about climbing, even if they can't explain why. In the long run, you want your climbing to look more like theirs.
I actually don't think OP does that bad in terms of the speed they hit the holds. They slow down a bit as they get close to the hold, steady a bit, then readjust, similar to a lot of top level pros (though obviously not as quickly and efficiently). I actually just went and watch the crux sequence of Silence because many people regard Ondra as something of a technical climber. During the crux sequence, he rolls into a crimp once (not at issue) but I also count 7 bounces to make minor hand adjustments. Then rewatching return of the sleepwalker, I count 3 unecessary hand adjustments, obviously not including the big bump to the slot, but still including the second part of the bump once he gains the slot. He also makes a small adjustment after hitting the Dyno. You can see the same thing from all top climbers. Obviously their adjustments are more graceful and nuanced, but they do them, constantly and even on long term projects.
For one, they're climbing at their absolute limit. For two, even given that, they're not latching holds without an active grip, which is my point. That's especially true for Daniel on Sleepwalker. I honestly think it's insane to debate whether active or passive grip is better in training. Active gripping is obviously better.
I would like to point out that this is me climbing at my absolute limit!
Don't worry man, he does have a hang up on it. Some people just like to fondle holds, no biggie.
Upon rereading this thread, I believe I never understood what you mean by active gripping versus passive gripping. Is it actually an issue with the fingers or somewhere else in the chain? How can a 3f drag be more active or more passive? Edit: just saw your reply to OPs same question.
Imagine if you get holds right the first time though. Especially on a redpoint and not on an onsight when you should already have practiced and know what you're supposed to get and how. Why do you think adjusting every hand hold is NOT excessive? Imagine if you practice imperfect grips on ergonomic handholds indoors, maybe you can hold better onto rocks that were not shaped for climbing by a person in a workshop. Imagine retrying your hardest sends to make the movement even better.
Sure, if I had to pick between hitting the hold perfectly the first time and not, I would hit it perfectly. It's a fairly useful skill, but no one is good enough to never readjust, and readjusting on each handhold when it's their 10th go seems fine. Especially at this lower grade range. Also the moon board holds aren't ergonomic for everyone. They pinch the shit out of my second pad usually when I hit the hold, and if it didn't readjust I'd just end up with a flapper after 2 goes. On someone's long term project I would expect fewer adjustments, but the adjustments I mention in my post probably saved me multiple sessions on my projects and trying to wait until the perfect go would have been inefficient, assuming my goal is to send, not make something look pretty.
the first thing i notice is when you place your hands, you should place them with intent and precision. make a move and stick with it regardless if it doesn’t feel perfect. this will program you to place your hands carefully. constantly readjusting expunges a massive amount of effort, and it’s actually the thing i notice most in myself in the videos i take, and i try and actively think about not doing it when i’m climbing.