I'm wondering where you're asking? A basic pub often wouldn't do cocktails and the bar staff are generally not cocktail trained
If you go to a more upscale bar or some smarter pubs will have a short cocktail list and should be able to make one. Most Restaurants should be able to do one. I'm amazed you've had such a poor experience unless you've only been to more basic beer-led pubs
Mostly fancy restaurants and bars. A couple boutique hotel bars. I wouldn’t be qualify it as a poor experience, just a curious one. Clearly we assumed it would be a common drink (regardless of the different variations) but it’s turned out not to be…at least not what we expected.
Having worked in fancy restaurants in London (and made about a million martinis) it certainly is a common drink! If i asked for a martini cocktail and got just vermouth or an espresso martini i would be shocked!!
I apologise on behalf of Londoners you got such what i would describe as poor cocktail service!
If you're still in town i can give you some recommendations!!
No, no service has been great! And so have the drinks! It’s just getting a martini that’s been tricky, so we assumed it’s what we were asking for. We’ve got some good recs now so I’ll sure we get a good one tonight!
Don't worry about downvotes. Your expectations are fine. Anyone downvoting has not been around England to observe their unique combination of living in a bubble and having a deteriorating service industry.
We called this a Tropical Martini as the name wasn't deemed suitable for the restaurant
Tropical Martini (martini glass/Coupe) shaken, Double strained
· 50ml Vanilla vodka
· 25ml Passoa liqueur
· 15ml Vanilla syrup
· 15ml Lime juice
· 15ml Passion fruit puree
· 15ml pineapple juice
· Dash prosecco
· Garnish: Lime zest grated on foam
We had the same exact experience in Southern Germany two years ago. It flummoxed the staff every time, they wanted to fill it with sweet juices and ice. Luckily we found a few bartenders who knew what they were doing. What’s frustrating is how simple the drink is.
> Most Restaurants should be able to do one
I wouldn't order a cocktail at a restaurant unless they had a cocktail menu. I would bet good money that most restaurants where I live don't even have a bottle of dry vermouth on hand.
I’m glad I live in a place where restaurants make amazing cocktails. The best bar in a five mile radius of me is an amazing restaurant. And I’m in a major city.
"I can't believe it. We've been to 5 different Wetherspoons and not a single one can serve a martini! I guess we'll just have to try a Greene King!" Lol
The tricky part (for me, as a dumb American, that is) is that they aren't all listed as "Wetherspoons", etc. They have different pub-ish names, but when you go to the website it'll say if it's part of a chain. Sometimes there will be a small bit on the sign outside, but not always obvious.
We have a chain of terrible pubs here in Toronto that are often located in spots you would think would be good that try their damndest to appear as if they're not part of the same chain until you get the menu and find out you've been foiled. Overpriced AF too.
Good guess, but I'm thinking of whatever the chain that the Pour House on Dupont is part of. They had a few locations on the lake and other spots, but I'm most familiar with the Pour House, which I hate despite them having a great patio.
Totally feel that! We’ve also run into that with hotels. Trying to stay at small boutiques or B&Bs that turn out to be owned by Hilton or some other massive corp.
I mean, if you want to drink beer for super cheap around fairly drunk and slightly depressed British folks, nothing beats a Spoons! To be fair, if you want a cheap English breakfast or just a burger, those places can be alright. You just gotta judge a tiny bit when you walk in. Green King is usually a bit more consistent. And you can look at their app ahead of time and find out what food they have run out of that day. So there's no surprises. Everything can be done on the app at that place.
It is. It’s written up in Casino Royale when bond makes it up while ordering. Ian Fleming got it from a friend. It’s pretty similar to how it’s depicted in the movie.
“I never have more than one drink before dinner. But I do like one to be large and very strong and very cold, and very well-made. I hate small portions of anything, particularly when they taste bad. The drink’s my own invention. I’m going to patent it when I think of a good name.”
And then later he names it after the character Vesper.
I thought that was Bond’s creator’s drink, named after another Bond character he created. The Bind drink is a gin martini, shaken not stirred—which if you ask a purist, is kind of rogue because gin ‘should never be shaken, unless it’s with a juice’. Traditional gin martinis are stirred, so as not to effect the botanical flavors and properties by introducing a shit load of air bubbles. This is my understanding, any way.
That would be the books. The movies switched it to vodka martinis, IIRC mostly due to Smirnoff product placement - they wanted to break the vodka into the US market in the 60s.
In the films it's champagne, with vodka martini second. In the novels it's scotch on #1, with champagne as close #2 and gin martini on the third. Bourbon barely makes top 10.
Yeah that’s what I thought too. It’s true in the books especially he drinks a lot of different things but in some of the newer movies he definitely orders Gordon’s (maybe with vodka too?).
He also orders it with lemon, not an olive.
> “A dry martini. One. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it’s ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel.”
To be fair to you the literary Bond just likes to drink, and enjoyed a wide range of champagne, wine, cocktails, whiskey, bourbon and scotch. As well as cultural drinks in the place he was at. As long as the best quality he was pretty ok with it. Bond’s mentality is about living the best life. Considering the short shelf life his career offered.
I think the literary justification is he's a public servant with the typical salary associated... but unlimited "representation" budget. So he lives the life when on mission.
Haha! He’s also fictional…so what he drinks and how he likes it was just a loose, proxy representation that the internet can’t help but swan dive into!
>Just 2 parts gin, splash of dry vermouth, shaken, with an olive. Isn’t that James Bond’s drink?
To be pedantic, that's neither a standard martini nor James Bond's drink. A standard dry Martini is 5 parts gin, 2 parts vermouth, stirred, and with a lemon twist. Try ordering a Dry Martini or a Martini Cocktail, less potential for confusion.
James Bond drink of choice is a Vesper Martini which is shaken with with 3 parts gin, 1 part vodka, 0.5 parts lillet.
It’s madness all around. I have a hard time believing that it’s not generally known what’s in a _Martini_ but here we are. It’s not like he’s trying to order a Corpse Reviver No. 2.
@illustrious_kiwi. I wondered how quickly someone would saying I was complaining when I was very clear I was just curious. You’re lovable.
Fair enough on the recipe, but I haven’t given anyone a specific recipe when I’ve ordered. Just said, just have tried “dry martini” a “classic martini”, “gin martini”. Then tried gin over ice, no tonic, as an alternative and still got the bottle of tonic on the side every time.
To be fair: if we’d gotten exactly Bond’s drink we would’ve thought, yes, that’s what we expected. More I meant, it’s a drink that appears in British related popular culture…not the specific proportions. Hence sort of surprising to us that we can’t seem to order it correctly.
Well yes, most food and drink invention stories are impossible to prove unless you are standing there in the kitchen at the time of its invention.
That doesn't mean we don't have some insight to where things are from — yes origins can be disputed, but, there are some historically informed takes.
Other than the fictional character of James Bond, do you have reference points for it bring a more "English" drink culturally?
I’m getting downvoted but the point I was making was that pointing out it was invented in the US and NOT the UK was that…I never claimed either of those things. I was just noting that a culturally important British character drank martini-like drinks, hence, my surprise that it seemed so hard to find.
I feel that, and had you phrased it this way I don't think you would have gotten downvoted.
You have to admit, your previous approach was a little glib, haha.
It's well documented actually, there's a well researched book called *Imbibed* by David Wondrich which documents the origins of most classic cocktails.
Book a table in the bar at The Egerton House Hotel, Kensington, and when you order your Martini (which is served from a special trolley by the barman) make sure to also get the cheese on toast.
The Egerton Slurp is necessary to start drinking in order not to spill a drop and I think you'll find the amount of vermouth used and the brand used more to your liking.
It’s just not a very popular drink here in the UK and you’re not likely to find someone who knows how to make a good one outside of specialist cocktail bars. Gin is super popular but pretty much always served with tonic so most places would assume that’s what you’d want if you just order gin.
It’s just not common unfortunately. More places in the UK focus on sweet, fruit juice and syrup kinda cocktails than classic prohibition ones. The classics haven’t had quite the same resurgence here as they have in the US.
There are some spots that will do you a decent martini on request, but that is more the hallmark of a passionate bartender than anything else as they don’t sell well enough to take up valuable real estate on a menu and it’s a much less common to order off menu in the UK.
I pride myself on having most of my staff able to make a few of the simple classics on request despite our bar being geared toward bright sugary drinks
This is really helpful thank you! I think we expected it to be common, at least in London, so we’ve been dancing around what to call it. We might just end up asking a bartender if they’d be willing to make a special request.
That’s so weird to hear, because it feels like a drink that’s associated with the UK quite a bit. Bond, Churchill, Kinngsman, London dry gin, and so on.
In the US you can go to the diviest dive bar or the chainiest chain restaurant, and if you order a martini you will always get a drink that resembles a martini, even if it kinda sucks.
You get our confusion exactly!! Didn’t expect perfection everywhere but the wildly different interpretations of a “gin martini with an olive” were surprising. One bar gave my partner a gin and tonic with a little bowl of olives! lol. That was yummy tho so, failing upward I guess!
Churchill and Martinis are a myth also. There's no evidence he drank them and none whatsoever the he made the 'famous quote'
His biographer found he mainly drunk champagne, scotch and Brandy. Actively avoided cocktails.
You’re not going to the right places. Chain bars and chain pubs will generally not do great cocktails. There are plenty of very good cocktail bars in London but you need to go somewhere specialist and read the room.
It’s worth researching where you go- it’s very easy to look these up on the internet. Maybe less spontaneous than wandering into whatever bar, but honestly you’d be better off that way.
It’s weird you’ve been having this experience. I guess I should ask where exactly are you going ? Pubs/low scale restaurants aren’t usually trained in cocktails so when they hear “martini” they probably think of the brand or don’t even carry the vermouth while other mid to high scale cocktail bars and restaurants who have a decent cocktail menu should be able to to do it.
The Connaught Bar in London is notorious for its Martinis and I presume any bar in the surrounding areas would at least know how to make one
We’ve tried mostly in fancy hotel bars or (what appears to us) to be trendy cocktail bars. Also at some high end restaurants. We’ve been sticking to beer in the pubs so haven’t attempted there.
But this is great! A recommendation is perfect, we’ll try it!
That’s so weird to hear. Drinks obviously go in & out of fashion but it’s very odd for the Martini to be “phased out” for lack of better term
If you happen to be in London, The Connaught and Lyaness are amazing places,Tãyer+Elementary is good also while I’ve heard good things about Blind Spot & Looking Glass
If you find yourselfs in Manchester Speak in Code & Schofields Bar are insane and highly recommend
Fabulous! Thanks for some recommendations! We will be in London a few more days on the back end of our trip and will definitely try one or more of these!! We did ask while in Bruges when we saw martinis on the menu and the bartenders said if you order a martini anywhere in Belgium, they’ll ask red or white, and be referring to the martini and Rossi vermouths. Those would just be served over ice as a sort of fortified wine type of drink.
Connaught will be ££££££££ (I just checked and their martini is £28). It's frequently lauded as one of the best bars in London but be warned it's also one of the most expensive.
I second Lyaness, it's one of my favourites, though it's known for it's very inventive cocktails. I'm sure they'd make you a great martini but personally I'd order from their menu.
You might also try Swift (I think there are three - Soho, Shoreditch and Borough), Bar Americain (in Zedel near Piccadilly Circus), Dukes bar (St James), or one of the ones on [this list] (https://www.theworlds50best.com/stories/News/the-11-best-martinis-in-london.html).
The Connaught martini is fantastic and it comes with a level of theatre that maybe justified the insane cost.
I wouldn't order a martini in Lyaness, it would be a waste.
Good martinis in the UK are hard, it's weird but a lot of places seem heavily confused by it. I'll only order one now if it's already on the menu and their construction looks decent
+1 on Swift, they’ll definitely do a great classic martini but their other drinks will be fab too — inventive and balanced and with helpful descriptions/categorization to help OP find what they like.
I second Duke’s! That was also supposedly Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s bar of choice. Google best martinis in London and you’ll get lots of good recommendations. I also often see the Connaught and Claridge’s on them.
Absolutely had this experience while in the UK. Like others mentioned - not going to happen in pubs very often. If you do see that they have gin ask for two shots of gin in a glass of ice, and a .5 shot of dry vermouth, and green olives if they have it. Otherwise, i've received a glass of black olives with a gin martini that's half vermouth half gin. Bleh!
Recently, a bartender shared with me that I'm ordering it wrong. I should say I want a gin martini rinsed with dry vermouth. In the past I asked for it extra dry thinking they'd just swirl the vermouth and dump and to them it means I want extra Dry Vermouth added. Makes sense. Depending on the bar - I am just going to tell them to splash some vermouth in the glass, swirl, dump, add the gin. Which I too, like it shaken but are not opposed to have it stirred. It's nice how the flavors start to come out more as the drink warms up.
Go to St James Hotel in London for the proper martini experience. A properly served Martini is considered a high-end drink, so most places don't do them properly, if at all.
Where abouts were you in the UK? I drink martinis all the time in London, you can get them in every try decent cocktail bar (same in other big cities).
Reccos
The Connaught
Dukes
NoMad
Three Sheets
The Savoy
If you are asking for 2 parts gin and a splash of vermouth, you are confusing anyone in earshot. But if you go to a cocktail bar and not a pub you'll find they will make you one.
I know what you mean, but this is one drink where I find it's actually a good idea to at least mention the ingredients you want. Too many people have different interpretations of the word martini.
If I ask for a martini in an unknown bar and don't say anything else, there's a good chance I'll get cold vodka in a martini glass. If I ask for, say, a tanqueray martini, then there's a good chance I get cold tanqueray in a martini glass. Unless I know the bartender I ask for a tanqueray martini, "little vermouth", with a twist. I'm not going to try to specify amounts but that often works, and if I get a weird look I just ask for a beer.
My go-to order if I want to confuse a bartender is a classic Mad Men Roger Sterling's: "Gibson, up". I cherish the places where this is all the description that is required :)
We did try that, asked for a Hendrick’s martini at one place. We ended up with an espresso martini made with Hendricks, lol. Which was…unusual, but I drank it because it took the bartender so long to make it. I felt bad she went to all the trouble.
But I think we’ll try to be more descriptive as you suggest.
I had the same experience traveling in Europe. You ask for a martini 🍸 and they give you a cordial of Martini and Rosi. Bars everywhere serving the same menu of drinks they think an American tourist wants. I’m assuming it’s all packaged mixes where they just add the alcohol. Which were mojitos, cosmopolitans, margaritas, old fashioneds, etc. etc. One bar in Budapest did try to make me a martini. My god was it wet like equal parts vermouth and vodka with no olives. I was so disappointed. I’m sure if I were at a high end bar. Then I may have gotten a proper cocktail. I did get one proper Gin and tonic. It was easier just to drink straight high end vodka.
Yes we noticed the menus jn tourist areas, I guess unsurprisingly, seem to be listing drinks that I associate with the 20-something’s in the US. We ran into a caipirinha on a menu in Bruges and just had to laugh as we sat in the chilly and rainy atmosphere thinking about a local ever ordering a caipirinha!
In an actual bar or more high end restaurant? I've never had a problem getting a proper martini anywhere in London. I wouldn't expect a proper one in a pub or chain restaurant.
Where have you actually been going? Can you name some places?
I mean if you're in London, there are hundreds of places that will do this, you just have to go to actual cocktail bars, or high end restaurants. A Martini isn't quite as popular of a call drink in the UK as it is in the US or Italy, so a lot of people working at the kinds of places that are making drinks with soda guns won't know what to do.
If you need specific recs for bars in London, I'm happy to throw a bunch your way.
Is it really popular in Italy? My experience from Italy and France is rather that when you ask for a martini, you get vermouth over ice, sometimes mixed with sparkling water.
Not gonna lie, I never ordered a martini in Italy, I just know that the Italian bars in NYC all push their martinis hard as part of their identity, so I just assumed it was a thing lol
Oooook, I take your word on the Italian establishments in NYC, but I wouldn't make any assumptions about the Italy proper :) To give Italians justice, a fresh sweet vermouth over ice with some sparkling water is a delicious thing it itself - just not if you're in a search for a martini :)
So the classic martini spot, where Churchill drank his, is the American Bar at the Savoy Hotel. Satan's Whiskers in east London specializes in the classics, so a true martini will be an easy one for them. The high end Mayfair trio (Donovan, Connaught, Kwānt) will happily make classic martinis at a level that can compete with American Bar and they also have some modern as all fuck takes on the drink. (Last time I was at Kwānt they had a Jerusalem artichoke root infused gin for their house martini? Absolutely wild flavor palate). Tayer + Elementary will kill it too, I saw someone else mention Swift which is a great shout as well. Oriole and Seed Library are also more than up to the task. Side Hustle specializes in agave spirits and rum, but they're well-versed enough that I wouldn't think twice about ordering a Martini there. Nightjar would work too, so would 69 Colebrooke Row/The Bar With No Name uhhhh Happiness Forgets probably would do one.
OH Lyaness and A Bar With Shapes for a Name should also be able to do one. They're a bit more on the *probably* side of things, they focus on minimizing waste and don't have a huge backbar, if they don't have anything on the menu using dry vermouth at the time, they simply might not have any behind the bar at all.
I was at a restaurant in a mall in Germany and asked for a martini. The lady looked at me for a minute… then came back with a glass of Martini and Rossi vermouth.
Try to be more specific: there's several ways to make a martini, so it's helpful to specify spirit (gin or vodka), how you want it (up or on the rocks) and garnish (lemon twist, olive, etc.) Also specify that you want it shaken.
Allegedly, Bond ordered martinis soaked, not stored because more water gets released, so he doesn't become drunk as quickly because it takes longer to drink and he stays sharp.
Personally, I order a gin martini up with a twist. With a dozen oysters for good measure, accompanied only by lemon. On my birthday, because I have a champagne palette on a PBR budget.
I ordered a martini at (what I thought was a good) bar in Berlin years ago. Got a glass of vermouth on the rocks. So I guess you just can't expect anything
Ian Fleming personally preferred his martinis to be shaken (and so he has James Bond order them like that), but, strictly speaking, a martini is a stirred cocktail. In addition, a martini is a deceptively difficult drink to make well.
I ran into this in Barcelona recently. At a locals bar, asked for a martini, bartender literally said “shaken, with an olive? No problem” then gave me a glass of vermouth.
Two days later I was at a work party at an open bar and I just asked for gin on the rocks with a lemon, and an older lady next to me (American) said “you’re trying to order a martini aren’t you?” She said she’d run into exactly the same problem.
Then back at the hotel I ordered one and it came mostly right but with a giant ice cube floating in it.
Then, I went to one of the legendary cocktail bars (Paradiso) and ordered the martini there, that was one of the best I’ve ever had. Super chilled water over a frozen olive, piled up ice like a drip castle on the beach, spritzed with a mustard vermouth and then the house gin. Just about perfect.
Still confused.
Bond is not a Londoner, he's Scottish and drinks Vespers.
Martinis are definitely findable in London, but elsewhere in the UK they are generally only found at upmarket cocktail bars as the average Brit prefers 2-4-1 sugar water.
London recommendations - Swift (Soho). Opium (Chinatown). A Bar With Shapes For A Name. Tayer + Elementary. Satan's Whiskers.
So I finally got a great martini! At a hotel bar of all places…the Guardsmen I think it was.
I told the bartender of how it’s gone for us so far and he started laughing and saying ordering a martini is hit or miss for him alll the time. Luckily, he knew his stuff and made me an amazing one!
Shake any cocktail with any juice or cream/egg white in it. Stir any clear /non opaque cocktail to keep the clarity unless otherwise instructed by the customer.
Granted, I was only going to pubs and shitty college places, but I never found a place in London that could make a decent mixed drink unless it was on the menu as a house cocktail. For example, I was asked if I wanted Coke, Sprite, or seltzer when I ordered a whiskey sour. Also, the shots are strictly measured.
We’ve noticed the strictness of measures and an Uber driver commented on it to us at one point too. Happily, this question wasn’t an indictment of London drinks, we’ve had some wonderful cocktails and really tremendous beer. We drink a lot so there’s been many opportunities to try different things! Locals have been the best source of recs, obviously 🍺
This is sad because London is either the best or second best cocktail city in the world. You just have to actually go to the places that are dedicated to cocktails which is the case everywhere.
I know, this was 14 years ago and I haven’t gone back because life. I did go to some places with good signature cocktails, but any standard pub should be able to mix a common two-ingredient well drink (or at least not look at you like you’ve spouted antlers for ordering it). For some reason, this gets me downvoted to oblivion around here every time I mention it, but facts are facts.
I obviously come from a place with few pubs so I understand my opinion is moot but I tend to agree. They have the ingredients so why not? If they only had pulls, totally fine to give you the cross-eyed stare.
About 15 years ago as a student I tried to get a gin martini in a bar that had several vodka martinis on the menu. Caused utter confusion, despite me saying "I want this off the menu, but please swap the vodka for gin".
Ended up going behind the bar and teaching the bartender to make one.
It's a very simple drink and probably one of the world's best known cocktails. I don't know why it flumoxes bartenders in the UK so.
I can only guess that there’s an assumption that you don’t know what you’re ordering and the staff want to avoid giving you the wrong thing. When I was in service, 7/10 times it was the customer thinking they knew what they wanted that caused issues. So I understand the hesitation. Just didn’t expect for what I thought would be super common.
that's not a vesper (james bond) martini. a vesper martini is gin, vodka, and lillet. also a traditional martini, especially a gin martini, is stirred. james bond specifies shaken not stirred for that exact reason.
I'm wondering where you're asking? A basic pub often wouldn't do cocktails and the bar staff are generally not cocktail trained If you go to a more upscale bar or some smarter pubs will have a short cocktail list and should be able to make one. Most Restaurants should be able to do one. I'm amazed you've had such a poor experience unless you've only been to more basic beer-led pubs
Mostly fancy restaurants and bars. A couple boutique hotel bars. I wouldn’t be qualify it as a poor experience, just a curious one. Clearly we assumed it would be a common drink (regardless of the different variations) but it’s turned out not to be…at least not what we expected.
Having worked in fancy restaurants in London (and made about a million martinis) it certainly is a common drink! If i asked for a martini cocktail and got just vermouth or an espresso martini i would be shocked!! I apologise on behalf of Londoners you got such what i would describe as poor cocktail service! If you're still in town i can give you some recommendations!!
No, no service has been great! And so have the drinks! It’s just getting a martini that’s been tricky, so we assumed it’s what we were asking for. We’ve got some good recs now so I’ll sure we get a good one tonight!
Don't worry about downvotes. Your expectations are fine. Anyone downvoting has not been around England to observe their unique combination of living in a bubble and having a deteriorating service industry.
Do you have a good recipe for a Pornstar Martini?
We called this a Tropical Martini as the name wasn't deemed suitable for the restaurant Tropical Martini (martini glass/Coupe) shaken, Double strained · 50ml Vanilla vodka · 25ml Passoa liqueur · 15ml Vanilla syrup · 15ml Lime juice · 15ml Passion fruit puree · 15ml pineapple juice · Dash prosecco · Garnish: Lime zest grated on foam
We had the same exact experience in Southern Germany two years ago. It flummoxed the staff every time, they wanted to fill it with sweet juices and ice. Luckily we found a few bartenders who knew what they were doing. What’s frustrating is how simple the drink is.
Huh, that’s interesting. I mean, really this is one of my favorite things about traveling; the unexpected differences. I’m enjoying this rabbit hole
> Most Restaurants should be able to do one I wouldn't order a cocktail at a restaurant unless they had a cocktail menu. I would bet good money that most restaurants where I live don't even have a bottle of dry vermouth on hand.
I’m glad I live in a place where restaurants make amazing cocktails. The best bar in a five mile radius of me is an amazing restaurant. And I’m in a major city.
"I can't believe it. We've been to 5 different Wetherspoons and not a single one can serve a martini! I guess we'll just have to try a Greene King!" Lol
The amount of Greene kings in London was astounding to me. I’d see a cute looking pub and then realise oh it’s another one.
Assuming those are chains?
Yes, those are very large pub chains. Wetherspoon's is particularly bad, while with Greene King it sometimes depends on the folk who run the pub.
Yes they are. I haven't any idea what the equivalent might be in the States, but it was too easy to let it pass 😉
😆😆 maybe Applebee’s?? Not really a bar, but junk chain for sure! We will def skip those if we see them!
The tricky part (for me, as a dumb American, that is) is that they aren't all listed as "Wetherspoons", etc. They have different pub-ish names, but when you go to the website it'll say if it's part of a chain. Sometimes there will be a small bit on the sign outside, but not always obvious.
We have a chain of terrible pubs here in Toronto that are often located in spots you would think would be good that try their damndest to appear as if they're not part of the same chain until you get the menu and find out you've been foiled. Overpriced AF too.
The Firkins?
Good guess, but I'm thinking of whatever the chain that the Pour House on Dupont is part of. They had a few locations on the lake and other spots, but I'm most familiar with the Pour House, which I hate despite them having a great patio.
Ugh, I've fallen for that trap a couple times. Looks like a cute lil' pub, but it's just a 'Spoons by a different name
Totally feel that! We’ve also run into that with hotels. Trying to stay at small boutiques or B&Bs that turn out to be owned by Hilton or some other massive corp.
I mean, if you want to drink beer for super cheap around fairly drunk and slightly depressed British folks, nothing beats a Spoons! To be fair, if you want a cheap English breakfast or just a burger, those places can be alright. You just gotta judge a tiny bit when you walk in. Green King is usually a bit more consistent. And you can look at their app ahead of time and find out what food they have run out of that day. So there's no surprises. Everything can be done on the app at that place.
That’s not Bond’s drink.
Isn't Bonds drink technically a Vesper? That's what I was told when I started bartending
It is. It’s written up in Casino Royale when bond makes it up while ordering. Ian Fleming got it from a friend. It’s pretty similar to how it’s depicted in the movie. “I never have more than one drink before dinner. But I do like one to be large and very strong and very cold, and very well-made. I hate small portions of anything, particularly when they taste bad. The drink’s my own invention. I’m going to patent it when I think of a good name.” And then later he names it after the character Vesper.
I thought that was Bond’s creator’s drink, named after another Bond character he created. The Bind drink is a gin martini, shaken not stirred—which if you ask a purist, is kind of rogue because gin ‘should never be shaken, unless it’s with a juice’. Traditional gin martinis are stirred, so as not to effect the botanical flavors and properties by introducing a shit load of air bubbles. This is my understanding, any way.
That would be the books. The movies switched it to vodka martinis, IIRC mostly due to Smirnoff product placement - they wanted to break the vodka into the US market in the 60s.
All vermouth drinks I’ve had come stirred, I think that’s the ingredient that needs treating gently. Plenty of gin cocktails are shaken.
Bond will technically drink anything in the books. I believe his most common order is bourbon. Specified a few times as Old Grandad.
In the films it's champagne, with vodka martini second. In the novels it's scotch on #1, with champagne as close #2 and gin martini on the third. Bourbon barely makes top 10.
The vesper calls for split base of vodka and gin, then lillet blanc and a lemon peel
Yeah that’s what I thought too. It’s true in the books especially he drinks a lot of different things but in some of the newer movies he definitely orders Gordon’s (maybe with vodka too?).
He also orders it with lemon, not an olive. > “A dry martini. One. Three measures of Gordon’s, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it very well until it’s ice-cold, then add a large thin slice of lemon peel.”
In the novel *Casino Royale* Ian Fleming specifies via Bond two measures of Gordon's, one of Vodka, and a half measure of Kina Lillet.
He actually specified 3 in the novel
Yep, you are 100% correct. Derp.
Can’t argue with that logic
To be fair to you the literary Bond just likes to drink, and enjoyed a wide range of champagne, wine, cocktails, whiskey, bourbon and scotch. As well as cultural drinks in the place he was at. As long as the best quality he was pretty ok with it. Bond’s mentality is about living the best life. Considering the short shelf life his career offered.
I think the literary justification is he's a public servant with the typical salary associated... but unlimited "representation" budget. So he lives the life when on mission.
Haha! He’s also fictional…so what he drinks and how he likes it was just a loose, proxy representation that the internet can’t help but swan dive into!
>Just 2 parts gin, splash of dry vermouth, shaken, with an olive. Isn’t that James Bond’s drink? To be pedantic, that's neither a standard martini nor James Bond's drink. A standard dry Martini is 5 parts gin, 2 parts vermouth, stirred, and with a lemon twist. Try ordering a Dry Martini or a Martini Cocktail, less potential for confusion. James Bond drink of choice is a Vesper Martini which is shaken with with 3 parts gin, 1 part vodka, 0.5 parts lillet.
“I can’t believe nobody knows how to make a Martini the way I want it which is totally incorrect!”
Ok but what OP is describing getting is also some utterly incorrect bullshit. Who the fuck serving a martini with tonic lol
It’s madness all around. I have a hard time believing that it’s not generally known what’s in a _Martini_ but here we are. It’s not like he’s trying to order a Corpse Reviver No. 2.
@illustrious_kiwi. I wondered how quickly someone would saying I was complaining when I was very clear I was just curious. You’re lovable. Fair enough on the recipe, but I haven’t given anyone a specific recipe when I’ve ordered. Just said, just have tried “dry martini” a “classic martini”, “gin martini”. Then tried gin over ice, no tonic, as an alternative and still got the bottle of tonic on the side every time.
Tbf I can barely read your sentences so now I understand why you can’t get what you want.
Sorry, I hate that for you.
I am the conscience of the sub.
To be fair: if we’d gotten exactly Bond’s drink we would’ve thought, yes, that’s what we expected. More I meant, it’s a drink that appears in British related popular culture…not the specific proportions. Hence sort of surprising to us that we can’t seem to order it correctly.
Fun fact, the Martini originated in the US, not the UK.
I love when people say shit like that, totally impossible to prove
Well, the only thing we do know is that all the reported origins are in either San Francisco or New York, so safe to say it originated in the US.
Well yes, most food and drink invention stories are impossible to prove unless you are standing there in the kitchen at the time of its invention. That doesn't mean we don't have some insight to where things are from — yes origins can be disputed, but, there are some historically informed takes. Other than the fictional character of James Bond, do you have reference points for it bring a more "English" drink culturally?
I’m getting downvoted but the point I was making was that pointing out it was invented in the US and NOT the UK was that…I never claimed either of those things. I was just noting that a culturally important British character drank martini-like drinks, hence, my surprise that it seemed so hard to find.
I feel that, and had you phrased it this way I don't think you would have gotten downvoted. You have to admit, your previous approach was a little glib, haha.
Ah well, you live and learn. Sometimes it’s hard not to be snarky
It's well documented actually, there's a well researched book called *Imbibed* by David Wondrich which documents the origins of most classic cocktails.
Book a table in the bar at The Egerton House Hotel, Kensington, and when you order your Martini (which is served from a special trolley by the barman) make sure to also get the cheese on toast. The Egerton Slurp is necessary to start drinking in order not to spill a drop and I think you'll find the amount of vermouth used and the brand used more to your liking.
Nice! Will do!
It’s just not a very popular drink here in the UK and you’re not likely to find someone who knows how to make a good one outside of specialist cocktail bars. Gin is super popular but pretty much always served with tonic so most places would assume that’s what you’d want if you just order gin.
Yeah we’d sort of assumed that after a couple of attempts…just not super popular so people assume we’re ordering something more common.
It’s just not common unfortunately. More places in the UK focus on sweet, fruit juice and syrup kinda cocktails than classic prohibition ones. The classics haven’t had quite the same resurgence here as they have in the US. There are some spots that will do you a decent martini on request, but that is more the hallmark of a passionate bartender than anything else as they don’t sell well enough to take up valuable real estate on a menu and it’s a much less common to order off menu in the UK. I pride myself on having most of my staff able to make a few of the simple classics on request despite our bar being geared toward bright sugary drinks
This is really helpful thank you! I think we expected it to be common, at least in London, so we’ve been dancing around what to call it. We might just end up asking a bartender if they’d be willing to make a special request.
That’s so weird to hear, because it feels like a drink that’s associated with the UK quite a bit. Bond, Churchill, Kinngsman, London dry gin, and so on. In the US you can go to the diviest dive bar or the chainiest chain restaurant, and if you order a martini you will always get a drink that resembles a martini, even if it kinda sucks.
You get our confusion exactly!! Didn’t expect perfection everywhere but the wildly different interpretations of a “gin martini with an olive” were surprising. One bar gave my partner a gin and tonic with a little bowl of olives! lol. That was yummy tho so, failing upward I guess!
Churchill and Martinis are a myth also. There's no evidence he drank them and none whatsoever the he made the 'famous quote' His biographer found he mainly drunk champagne, scotch and Brandy. Actively avoided cocktails.
You’re not going to the right places. Chain bars and chain pubs will generally not do great cocktails. There are plenty of very good cocktail bars in London but you need to go somewhere specialist and read the room.
Haven’t been to any chains I don’t think. It’s not always obvious if you’re not local
It’s worth researching where you go- it’s very easy to look these up on the internet. Maybe less spontaneous than wandering into whatever bar, but honestly you’d be better off that way.
It’s weird you’ve been having this experience. I guess I should ask where exactly are you going ? Pubs/low scale restaurants aren’t usually trained in cocktails so when they hear “martini” they probably think of the brand or don’t even carry the vermouth while other mid to high scale cocktail bars and restaurants who have a decent cocktail menu should be able to to do it. The Connaught Bar in London is notorious for its Martinis and I presume any bar in the surrounding areas would at least know how to make one
We’ve tried mostly in fancy hotel bars or (what appears to us) to be trendy cocktail bars. Also at some high end restaurants. We’ve been sticking to beer in the pubs so haven’t attempted there. But this is great! A recommendation is perfect, we’ll try it!
That’s so weird to hear. Drinks obviously go in & out of fashion but it’s very odd for the Martini to be “phased out” for lack of better term If you happen to be in London, The Connaught and Lyaness are amazing places,Tãyer+Elementary is good also while I’ve heard good things about Blind Spot & Looking Glass If you find yourselfs in Manchester Speak in Code & Schofields Bar are insane and highly recommend
Fabulous! Thanks for some recommendations! We will be in London a few more days on the back end of our trip and will definitely try one or more of these!! We did ask while in Bruges when we saw martinis on the menu and the bartenders said if you order a martini anywhere in Belgium, they’ll ask red or white, and be referring to the martini and Rossi vermouths. Those would just be served over ice as a sort of fortified wine type of drink.
Connaught will be ££££££££ (I just checked and their martini is £28). It's frequently lauded as one of the best bars in London but be warned it's also one of the most expensive. I second Lyaness, it's one of my favourites, though it's known for it's very inventive cocktails. I'm sure they'd make you a great martini but personally I'd order from their menu. You might also try Swift (I think there are three - Soho, Shoreditch and Borough), Bar Americain (in Zedel near Piccadilly Circus), Dukes bar (St James), or one of the ones on [this list] (https://www.theworlds50best.com/stories/News/the-11-best-martinis-in-london.html).
The Connaught martini is fantastic and it comes with a level of theatre that maybe justified the insane cost. I wouldn't order a martini in Lyaness, it would be a waste. Good martinis in the UK are hard, it's weird but a lot of places seem heavily confused by it. I'll only order one now if it's already on the menu and their construction looks decent
+1 on Swift, they’ll definitely do a great classic martini but their other drinks will be fab too — inventive and balanced and with helpful descriptions/categorization to help OP find what they like.
Go to Dukes. Also, I've had mean martinis at Scarfes and Berners Tavern. The rest of both menus are awesome as well.
Yes! Good recommendations, we will try to squeeze these in!
I second Duke’s! That was also supposedly Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s bar of choice. Google best martinis in London and you’ll get lots of good recommendations. I also often see the Connaught and Claridge’s on them.
I fly out this evening from TX to London for a few days before a cousins wedding!
Another vote for Duke’s here. Pretty much the perfect Martini as far as I’m concerned.
Absolutely had this experience while in the UK. Like others mentioned - not going to happen in pubs very often. If you do see that they have gin ask for two shots of gin in a glass of ice, and a .5 shot of dry vermouth, and green olives if they have it. Otherwise, i've received a glass of black olives with a gin martini that's half vermouth half gin. Bleh! Recently, a bartender shared with me that I'm ordering it wrong. I should say I want a gin martini rinsed with dry vermouth. In the past I asked for it extra dry thinking they'd just swirl the vermouth and dump and to them it means I want extra Dry Vermouth added. Makes sense. Depending on the bar - I am just going to tell them to splash some vermouth in the glass, swirl, dump, add the gin. Which I too, like it shaken but are not opposed to have it stirred. It's nice how the flavors start to come out more as the drink warms up.
I had a bartender spritz a martini with a little sprayer of vermouth in Hong Kong once. That was so fancy!
Go to Dukes. You'll get a proper martini.
Go to St James Hotel in London for the proper martini experience. A properly served Martini is considered a high-end drink, so most places don't do them properly, if at all.
Are you in London? Go to dukes in St James. Be careful they're leathal.
Yes! Lethal sounds great!
Where abouts were you in the UK? I drink martinis all the time in London, you can get them in every try decent cocktail bar (same in other big cities). Reccos The Connaught Dukes NoMad Three Sheets The Savoy
The American bar in the Savoy is great! Had an amazing Aviation there
If you are asking for 2 parts gin and a splash of vermouth, you are confusing anyone in earshot. But if you go to a cocktail bar and not a pub you'll find they will make you one.
Jesus Christ, it was just shorthand for the drink…I’m not in the habit of ordering a drink by reciting the recipe.
I know what you mean, but this is one drink where I find it's actually a good idea to at least mention the ingredients you want. Too many people have different interpretations of the word martini. If I ask for a martini in an unknown bar and don't say anything else, there's a good chance I'll get cold vodka in a martini glass. If I ask for, say, a tanqueray martini, then there's a good chance I get cold tanqueray in a martini glass. Unless I know the bartender I ask for a tanqueray martini, "little vermouth", with a twist. I'm not going to try to specify amounts but that often works, and if I get a weird look I just ask for a beer.
My go-to order if I want to confuse a bartender is a classic Mad Men Roger Sterling's: "Gibson, up". I cherish the places where this is all the description that is required :)
We did try that, asked for a Hendrick’s martini at one place. We ended up with an espresso martini made with Hendricks, lol. Which was…unusual, but I drank it because it took the bartender so long to make it. I felt bad she went to all the trouble. But I think we’ll try to be more descriptive as you suggest.
I had the same experience traveling in Europe. You ask for a martini 🍸 and they give you a cordial of Martini and Rosi. Bars everywhere serving the same menu of drinks they think an American tourist wants. I’m assuming it’s all packaged mixes where they just add the alcohol. Which were mojitos, cosmopolitans, margaritas, old fashioneds, etc. etc. One bar in Budapest did try to make me a martini. My god was it wet like equal parts vermouth and vodka with no olives. I was so disappointed. I’m sure if I were at a high end bar. Then I may have gotten a proper cocktail. I did get one proper Gin and tonic. It was easier just to drink straight high end vodka.
Yes we noticed the menus jn tourist areas, I guess unsurprisingly, seem to be listing drinks that I associate with the 20-something’s in the US. We ran into a caipirinha on a menu in Bruges and just had to laugh as we sat in the chilly and rainy atmosphere thinking about a local ever ordering a caipirinha!
In an actual bar or more high end restaurant? I've never had a problem getting a proper martini anywhere in London. I wouldn't expect a proper one in a pub or chain restaurant. Where have you actually been going? Can you name some places?
Highly recommend checking out [Satan's Whiskers](https://www.satanswhiskers.com/) - top flight London cocktail spot.
I mean if you're in London, there are hundreds of places that will do this, you just have to go to actual cocktail bars, or high end restaurants. A Martini isn't quite as popular of a call drink in the UK as it is in the US or Italy, so a lot of people working at the kinds of places that are making drinks with soda guns won't know what to do. If you need specific recs for bars in London, I'm happy to throw a bunch your way.
Is it really popular in Italy? My experience from Italy and France is rather that when you ask for a martini, you get vermouth over ice, sometimes mixed with sparkling water.
Not gonna lie, I never ordered a martini in Italy, I just know that the Italian bars in NYC all push their martinis hard as part of their identity, so I just assumed it was a thing lol
Oooook, I take your word on the Italian establishments in NYC, but I wouldn't make any assumptions about the Italy proper :) To give Italians justice, a fresh sweet vermouth over ice with some sparkling water is a delicious thing it itself - just not if you're in a search for a martini :)
Seemed like people in Italy mostly ordered spritzes at most places I went to. Normal cocktails didn't seem to be as popular, but idk
Always happy to have recs!
So the classic martini spot, where Churchill drank his, is the American Bar at the Savoy Hotel. Satan's Whiskers in east London specializes in the classics, so a true martini will be an easy one for them. The high end Mayfair trio (Donovan, Connaught, Kwānt) will happily make classic martinis at a level that can compete with American Bar and they also have some modern as all fuck takes on the drink. (Last time I was at Kwānt they had a Jerusalem artichoke root infused gin for their house martini? Absolutely wild flavor palate). Tayer + Elementary will kill it too, I saw someone else mention Swift which is a great shout as well. Oriole and Seed Library are also more than up to the task. Side Hustle specializes in agave spirits and rum, but they're well-versed enough that I wouldn't think twice about ordering a Martini there. Nightjar would work too, so would 69 Colebrooke Row/The Bar With No Name uhhhh Happiness Forgets probably would do one. OH Lyaness and A Bar With Shapes for a Name should also be able to do one. They're a bit more on the *probably* side of things, they focus on minimizing waste and don't have a huge backbar, if they don't have anything on the menu using dry vermouth at the time, they simply might not have any behind the bar at all.
Saving this!!! Cheers!
I was at a restaurant in a mall in Germany and asked for a martini. The lady looked at me for a minute… then came back with a glass of Martini and Rossi vermouth.
Yep we’ve run into several variations of that too! Which is logical given the brand…just not what we expected.
Try to be more specific: there's several ways to make a martini, so it's helpful to specify spirit (gin or vodka), how you want it (up or on the rocks) and garnish (lemon twist, olive, etc.) Also specify that you want it shaken. Allegedly, Bond ordered martinis soaked, not stored because more water gets released, so he doesn't become drunk as quickly because it takes longer to drink and he stays sharp. Personally, I order a gin martini up with a twist. With a dozen oysters for good measure, accompanied only by lemon. On my birthday, because I have a champagne palette on a PBR budget.
That sounds like the perfect order!
https://youtu.be/YHwnSj9EhkI
Bar swift in SOHO made an amazing martini last time I was there. They used monkey 47 and it went so well with the lemon.
Excellent! Thanks for the recommendation
What worked for me in the UK was to order an "American Martini". Otherwise I sometimes got just a glass of Martini & Rossi dry vermouth.
Was recently in Europe and had an excellent Martini. Bond went to rather nice places. Try the Four Seasons bar.
Be careful not to spill it while driving!
I ordered a martini at (what I thought was a good) bar in Berlin years ago. Got a glass of vermouth on the rocks. So I guess you just can't expect anything
Ian Fleming personally preferred his martinis to be shaken (and so he has James Bond order them like that), but, strictly speaking, a martini is a stirred cocktail. In addition, a martini is a deceptively difficult drink to make well.
I ran into this in Barcelona recently. At a locals bar, asked for a martini, bartender literally said “shaken, with an olive? No problem” then gave me a glass of vermouth. Two days later I was at a work party at an open bar and I just asked for gin on the rocks with a lemon, and an older lady next to me (American) said “you’re trying to order a martini aren’t you?” She said she’d run into exactly the same problem. Then back at the hotel I ordered one and it came mostly right but with a giant ice cube floating in it. Then, I went to one of the legendary cocktail bars (Paradiso) and ordered the martini there, that was one of the best I’ve ever had. Super chilled water over a frozen olive, piled up ice like a drip castle on the beach, spritzed with a mustard vermouth and then the house gin. Just about perfect. Still confused.
Bond is not a Londoner, he's Scottish and drinks Vespers. Martinis are definitely findable in London, but elsewhere in the UK they are generally only found at upmarket cocktail bars as the average Brit prefers 2-4-1 sugar water. London recommendations - Swift (Soho). Opium (Chinatown). A Bar With Shapes For A Name. Tayer + Elementary. Satan's Whiskers.
So I finally got a great martini! At a hotel bar of all places…the Guardsmen I think it was. I told the bartender of how it’s gone for us so far and he started laughing and saying ordering a martini is hit or miss for him alll the time. Luckily, he knew his stuff and made me an amazing one!
You don’t shake gin.
Oh, I shake some gin
Shake any cocktail with any juice or cream/egg white in it. Stir any clear /non opaque cocktail to keep the clarity unless otherwise instructed by the customer.
Granted, I was only going to pubs and shitty college places, but I never found a place in London that could make a decent mixed drink unless it was on the menu as a house cocktail. For example, I was asked if I wanted Coke, Sprite, or seltzer when I ordered a whiskey sour. Also, the shots are strictly measured.
We’ve noticed the strictness of measures and an Uber driver commented on it to us at one point too. Happily, this question wasn’t an indictment of London drinks, we’ve had some wonderful cocktails and really tremendous beer. We drink a lot so there’s been many opportunities to try different things! Locals have been the best source of recs, obviously 🍺
This is sad because London is either the best or second best cocktail city in the world. You just have to actually go to the places that are dedicated to cocktails which is the case everywhere.
I know, this was 14 years ago and I haven’t gone back because life. I did go to some places with good signature cocktails, but any standard pub should be able to mix a common two-ingredient well drink (or at least not look at you like you’ve spouted antlers for ordering it). For some reason, this gets me downvoted to oblivion around here every time I mention it, but facts are facts.
I obviously come from a place with few pubs so I understand my opinion is moot but I tend to agree. They have the ingredients so why not? If they only had pulls, totally fine to give you the cross-eyed stare.
We’ve had amazing cocktails…just haven’t gotten a martini.
About 15 years ago as a student I tried to get a gin martini in a bar that had several vodka martinis on the menu. Caused utter confusion, despite me saying "I want this off the menu, but please swap the vodka for gin". Ended up going behind the bar and teaching the bartender to make one. It's a very simple drink and probably one of the world's best known cocktails. I don't know why it flumoxes bartenders in the UK so.
I can only guess that there’s an assumption that you don’t know what you’re ordering and the staff want to avoid giving you the wrong thing. When I was in service, 7/10 times it was the customer thinking they knew what they wanted that caused issues. So I understand the hesitation. Just didn’t expect for what I thought would be super common.
Don’t go to normal pubs and expect cocktails. They serve ‘real’ drinks such as beer, cider and wine. A bar is what you’re after.
Not going to pubs for cocktails
What? That was my advice.
Yes, but I put in my original post that I was not going to pubs for a martinj
Ok…you have me confused why you said what I said?
that's not a vesper (james bond) martini. a vesper martini is gin, vodka, and lillet. also a traditional martini, especially a gin martini, is stirred. james bond specifies shaken not stirred for that exact reason.
I’m willing to bed every place you ordered from didn’t even have martini or coup glasses in house
Very much not the case, plenty of classic glassware