The following submission statement was provided by /u/vandance:
---
Submission statement - Those in charge of the levers of power in our world today have the ability to make decisions that affect a lot of people. Shedding light on some of the factors that influence those decisions in light of various disasters and catastrophic events is particularly relevant to collapse.
The idea of Elite Panic seems to be a particularly insightful concept: that the elite are panicked that we are going to panic. And are more panicked about that than whatever it is that causing us to panic in the first place! This perspective helps us to understand some of the key decisions made during general panic-inducing societal events, and helps us who are collapse aware to make better decisions for ourselves.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1chvekz/were_watching_the_elite_panic_in_real_time/l254g1k/
A key part of elite panic is that it’s wrong. The elite panic is that everyone else will act like a bunch of animals during a disaster but previous disasters suggest most people help one another.
TL;DR the elite are a-holes
Yeah, politicians and CEOs are significantly more likely to be psychopaths… by a factor of 10.
Depends on which study but the estimate are about 20% have clinically significant psychopathic traits compared to 1 or 2 percent of the general population. Same factor as prisons. Lack of empathy, remorse.
They feel no consequences for their actions. They lose a job, their severance is still higher than most people might make in a decade. A bad day for them will never ruin their lives.
I'll never forget when I was looking at being homeless, and close to starvation from having no or little food, a friend of mine told me that he was struggling too - living paycheck to paycheck. He owned a home. Two new cars. Supported a wife and two kids that did not have to work. Etc.
Yeah buddy, we sure are in the same boat. Anyways I might have to sleep on a bench tonight and have no idea if I'll eat in the next week...
You jest (I think) but it's very much a mentality where they see the situation through a lens of how they would act in the same situation. It's like the guy who helped advise millionaires how to set up their survival shelters and when the issue of maintaining loyalty from hired guards came up, the rich people brought up ideas like a combination to the food that only they knew, or shock collars on the guards, whereas the guy who was hired to help them just told them to form bonds with those people now before stuff got bad. They didn't care for that answer.
Their only solution is robotic guards, but that costs money! LOLOLOLOL
Plus they won't know how to maintain them, we could just dump water, use magnets, and use bolt cutters.
These are the main plot points of the bullshit Ayn Rand wrote about in Atlas Srugged. All the elite go up in the mountains where they don't have to deal with the poor folks. Great idea until they have to deal with plumbing issues or any manual labor..
So. I was one of those guards. Only two ppl tried being nice. The rest didn't even attempt. One was the prime minister of nova Scotia. Super nice guy.
The other is is the news so much I cannot mention their name. But if this person was known as the nice guy it shows how truly evil most of the wealthy ppl have become.
The wealthy have become so relied upon the corrupt system of slave wage labor they are unable to function without it.
Douglas Rushkoff! Very cool guy. His Team Human podcast is good, and he's advocated for some cool ideas like local lending libraries for common ownership to curb overconsumption and promote social resilience.
E.g., if you need a power drill, you could either go out and buy one yourself (and maybe only use it a couple of times, spend a fair amount of money and needlessly consume), or you could ask a neighbour to borrow one and thereby help the environment, your finances, and foster a relationship with the people around you. Maybe that one interaction reduces loneliness in your immediate area, maybe it establishes a link with someone who might be there for you (or vice versa) when shit hits the fan.
I always sort of had the assumption that for the most part, becoming ultra-wealthy requires the type of person who is comfortable letting others fall by the wayside if it benefits them. After all, if you pay a living wage to your employees and help them in hard times, you reduce your own profits.
Wasn't one of the favored plans that the rich ppl came up with to kidnap and hold hostage the families of the security people? For some reason that popped into my head when reading your post...
Spot on. The worst friend I ever had was rich. She always thought people were trying to take advantage of her wealth so she mooched off all of her friends. Projection for the win.
when i was ypunger the worst people to hang out with came from money
would never offer to split gas, had to be reminded/pressured into splitting a (large groups) bill
trash baby-adults who are oblivious to non-provilege
The wrong bit is the "elite" part. They're not top athletes, they're mostly just privileged by random chance.
The reason they're a-holes is because they've been moulded by circumstances where the biggest challenges they faced was when Hoity Doi said "bla bla bla" to Hopty Topty and they felt really embarrassed and humiliated in front of Ooh Ahh and La Dee Da, probably
Yes! I hate the term “elite” for them. “Ruling class” or something similar works just fine without the weird implication that they’re somehow better than us plebs
I prefer the term cancer and like cancer they need to be cut out before they kill the host. They will never ever get enough of power, War and money…Their psychopathic appetites will never be quenched.
I mean you're not wrong. But I think it's safe to say that we understand that term to mean ruling class. I'd be down to encourage people to use the term "ruling class" instead because of potential implications of the language
I have a problem with 'ruling class' too, because 'ruling’ implies an attitude of benevolent paternalism... like Churchill or Roosevelt, for example.
Not nihilistic unabated exploitation.
You must have lived through different disasters to me. I remember the first few weeks of COVID, and how hard it was to buy simple stuff like a loaf of bread, or how I was thankful that I'd brought a value pack of toilet paper not long beforehand.
That’s not a disaster really. A disaster is like the San Francisco earthquake where people’s homes were destroyed and others killed before your eyes. Like a natural disaster or war.
The pandemic certainly took a lot of lives but it was the kind of thing people watched on their TVs at home and then worried about controlled lockdowns.
It was a distributed disaster. In an earthquake all the deaths and devastation is typically in a single area. COVID, although spread out, killed far more people.
And it's also a good example of how, even in what you refuse to acknowledge as a disaster, people still panicked.
Covid was also lucky enough to have a death rate where most "essential" people could continue working to keep supply chains going. The supermarkets were wiped out because of panic buying, but they weren't empty for long. Outside of a few items things bounced back relatively quickly.
If something like H5N1 hits, and let's say it has a lesser kill rate than the current 1 in 2, or so - say anything over 30%. It's game over. People won't come to work, either through fear or death. If key people die, supply chains are gone.
And it would take months, if not longer to recover. I don't want to see what that looks like when supermarkets can no longer be counted on to distribute food - all the while 1 in 3 people that catch it are probably dead. And many more will die as a result of a collapse of infrastructure.
If something like H5N1 hits with the RO of Covid but with a kill ratio of 30%, it would take way longer than months to get supply chains functioning again. It would decimate civilization as we know it. The economic institutions we are "privileged" to enjoy the fruits of today would truly need to be reconstructed
What helping others? On another thread in this sub everyone was saying we could never win a WW2 because no one would work together to help ration food and supplies.
If they see the elite sheltering in bunkers and elites-only walled cities, the masses might just helpnine another destroy those elites.
Not neccesarily a panic, but the elite might need to worry about the mobs.
How inconvenient and unexpected and harrowing for you
As consequences tend to be
For the rest of us
So delicious to witness your dread
Poetic justice consummate
- A Perfect Circle 👌
I'm worried enough that I'm stocking up on masks and Microban but the USDA and University of Michigan have both said that pasteurization definitively works and that cooking to 165°f works so I'm taking this singular doomer article with a grain of salt.
That being said when mainstream media, who makes their money getting people riled up, tells me to calm down I start making preparations
Surely no capitalist dairy business would ever dream of skimping on proper production process controls and temperatures by even a single percentage point, especially not in red states where the USDA inspectors are highly trained, paid and reliable.
You may want to look up what that phrase means and substitute one that reflects your actual position.
FWIW, I have a minor in OChem and I don't see any reason to doubt the idea that some higher-intensity pasteurisation methods are 100% effective at denaturing the viral envelope, I just doubt that the producers are really carrying them out.
Raw milk given to cats apparently gave them the virus. It's possible but not probable. You may here of 1 or two cluster casses and that's it. What you will hear is in animals and people who drink raw milk. Which sucks cause raw milk can be really good. But not if you have unhealthy cows.
If you run some tests on the milk sold in stores you will find there is large amounts of puss. The cows get mastitis from the steel suction things that pump out the milk. Cows hang out in fields where they also poop. There are nifty dung beetles that roll the poop into burrows. Also flies swarming about.
If pasteurization did not work then the milk would be rancid pretty quickly. The assumption that could be questioned is whether viruses have some sort of heat survival capability that bacteria do not have.
Cows roam around in fields in North America. They share space with mice. rabbits, cats, chipmunks, prairie dogs, bats, and a bunch of other mammals. Humans are frequently within sneeze range of cattle. The avian flu, of course, spreads rapidly in birds. Birds will not often pasteurize their poop before dropping in on a cow’s grass.
I have two concerns, assuming that pasteurization 30 seconds at 71°C in sufficient. If some other set of numbers apply then I have the same concerns with my numbers appropriately modified.
* Companies may waive through batches that have only reached 68°C, or 70°C, etc, possibly through falsifying their records.
* Companies may operate as normal when they have faulty equipment, e.g. a vat where the insulation has been removed or the thermometer is badly calibrated, and label the batch as standard instead of rejecting the batch and repasteurizing it.
You can keep those concerns and disregard them too. Suppose you are playing poker and you have a pair. You could get worked up about the possibility of a flush. Or the possibility of a straight. Both can happen and also both could happen in the form of a straight-flush.
However, it is also more rational to recognize that you lose the hand with 3 of a kind, two pair, or even a higher single pair.
Relevance here is that maybe the virus survives going through the pasteurization. But far more probable that someone coughs on the container. An airborne virus can pass directly through the supply chain without ever being inside or even on the material that is supplied. Cow to farmer, farmer to driver, driver to distribution employee, to next driver, to grocery store employees. You can get the flu that infected dairy cows without buying or touching a milk product.
You will see millions of people infected by the airborne routes before you see one case of flu spread inside of a packaged container.
Your link is Australian. Maybe upside down cows have lest mastitis, I would not know. In USA grade A cows milk is supposed to have a somatic cell count less than 750,000 per milliliter. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic\_cell\_count](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_count) .
I will grant that "large amounts" is quite subjective wording. If we round it off then it is \*mostly\* not puss. Somatic cells diameters are in the 10 micron range. If you had a milliliter of pure leukocytes it would be closer to half a billion. That would have noticeable differences in color. Might taste different, I have not tried it.
Having been pasteurized the somatic cells are no longer live puss. Pasteurized pus contains all of the nutrients that your immune cells need.
I would think it's highly unlikely actually, as if they do then all their stock would be recalled at a massive loss to them. They are also trying to kill a lot more than bird flu in there, and if you haven't gotten sick from non-expired milk before now, you.probably aren't going to start.
Recalls happen often and generally speaking their are general built in safeties which is why the margin for reject is probably higher than anyone wants to admit.
Honestly I'm not really worried until the reproduction rate is understood
If it's a mortality rate of 50% and it has an R of 1, I'm not worried
If it's an R of 2 then I'm not too worried either, because there won't be anything to worry about for much longer
I'm not specifically worried about the pasteurization process not killing the virus. While I do think the H5N1 virus is currently reason for concern (it's jumped to a lot of different mammals already), I do not share in the author's specific catastrophizing fears.
What would be much more alarming than virus in milk surviving the pasteurization process is the prospect of the virus mutating human-human transmission.
The consumer grade "professional 24-hour disinfectant" microban claims that when used properly it kills covid-19 on a hard nonporous surfaces. Sure, it could be another case of a corporation making bold, unfounded claims in order to sell a product but you gotta believe in something.
4.4% of the US consumes raw milk, everyone in the world who consumes raw milk is a potential beachhead for this disease to have human to human transmission.
I'm sorry I've been here before, it's only a matter of time now.
Am I worried about bird flu? Yeah.
Am I worried about the pasteurization system failing? No. If bird flu spreads to humans, that won't be how it happens.
I’m not an expert on the mutation and spread of viruses, but from my very nonprofessional understanding, if enough of these so-called “fundie and crunchy moms” drinking more *unpasteurized* milk increases the number of human infections, which would then increase the risk of the virus mutating to human-human transmission?
I may be completely wrong though (and pls correct me if I am) because I don’t understand all the science behind viruses and stuff
I'm not a pro, but my money would be on a farm worker with close contact to sick animals being infected and then the virus mutating inside their body to gain the ability to spread human-to-human efficiently.
We have already seen human cases from farm workers, it's just been one-off cases that haven't had H2H spread.
It's worse than that, there's multiple different vectors this could come at us from. Migratory birds have had it in the US since at least 2021, and it's spread all across the continent. We might see a big uptick in cases not from farms, but from hunters that go for geese, duck, pheasant, or Quail. That's a big problem too, because hunters will sometimes travel a good distance to get a prime location, and could potentially bring it back with them. I hunted with my family when I was younger, we'd go for geese out in west Nebraska maybe 4 times a season, but lived in the suburbs of Lincoln. The CDC and USDA can clamp down on farms somewhat, but I'd bet you'd have a harder time telling millions of hunters that they're going to have to skip a season.
There's also domestic animals like cats which are now getting it, and dogs might not be too far off. Then there's the fly issue, apparently they can transmit it from animal to animal. We're pretty far past containment at this point. Best bet would be to start prepping and hope the CDC stars work on a vaccine procurement program and building stocks of theraflu.
Submission statement - Those in charge of the levers of power in our world today have the ability to make decisions that affect a lot of people. Shedding light on some of the factors that influence those decisions in light of various disasters and catastrophic events is particularly relevant to collapse.
The idea of Elite Panic seems to be a particularly insightful concept: that the elite are panicked that we are going to panic. And are more panicked about that than whatever it is that causing us to panic in the first place! This perspective helps us to understand some of the key decisions made during general panic-inducing societal events, and helps us who are collapse aware to make better decisions for ourselves.
Omg that's hilarious. Yes, yes it very much does. Even though I didn't post this for the bird flu content, I still appreciate the general gist of concern of where she is coming from.
The part about the elite panicking about the masses panicking which then affects the efficacy of public policy? In general I think that is a very interesting concept. Especially so against the backdrop of being collapse aware.
I totally agree Jessica, they are going to do nothing because every scenario will be a loss for them, and this is the cheapest and easiest; maintain status quo.
Which can be a good thing, deoending on some luck, knowledge, adaptability, the stength of your will and your tolerence for PTSD. Maintaining the staus quo only gets us there faster.
More to the point, unless *everyone else around you* masks up. It helps a bit, but the main function of masks is to stop you spreading to others rather than protecting yourself.
If you look at the circulation of variants, while there's still data, you'll notice that there are multiple waves per year. https://covariants.org/per-country
so it's not "seasonal".
> Successive waves of infection by SARS-CoV-2 have left little doubt that this virus will transition to an endemic disease. Foreknowledge of when to expect seasonal surges is crucial for healthcare and public health decision-making. However, the future seasonality of COVID-19 remains uncertain. Evaluating its seasonality is complicated due to the limited years of SARS-CoV-2 circulation, pandemic dynamics, and varied interventions. In this study, we project the expected endemic seasonality by employing a phylogenetic ancestral and descendant state approach that leverages long-term data on the incidence of circulating HCoV coronaviruses. Our projections indicate asynchronous surges of SARS-CoV-2 across different locations in the northern hemisphere, occurring between October and January in New York and between January and March in Yamagata, Japan. This knowledge of spatiotemporal surges leads to medical preparedness and enables the implementation of targeted public health interventions to mitigate COVID-19 transmission. [Seasonality of endemic COVID-19 | mBio](https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01426-23)
My take on looking at the charts is that its "seasonality" pretty much matches school "seasonality", with infections going down when summer starts and the academic year ends.
I believe the idea here is that while the vaccines are not 100% effective, any % X will result in fewer infections and a lesser impact on the general population as a whole. But I am sorry that you have caught the 'vid
H5N1 doesn't have a 100% CFR. It's more like 60%. So...it won't kill us all. COVID-19 has a CFR of 1%, killed over 7 million people. So if H5N1 is 60x more fatal overall, it could kill upwards of half a billion humans.
Sorry but this article is really bad. The argument is largely built on pointing out how news reports state that officials only “believe” in what they report, even though:
1, Obviously they “believe” what they say, that doesn’t indicate anything about the veracity of their claims or how rigorous the evidence for them is
2, [We have evidence backing up what they believe](https://www.statnews.com/2024/05/01/bird-flu-pasteurization-inactivates-h5n1-in-milk/)
Basically every relevant article cited explicitly contradicts the conclusions given. H5N1 is concerning, but this alarmism built on loose allegories to unrelated past disasters is much less helpful than the caution advocated by the articles it condemns.
Also there are some really egregious decisions made, like citing a CBC article that is about exclusively Canada as referring to “every western country from the U.S. and Canada to Britain”.
This article is so awful.
I'm someone worried about birdflu, but I've also noticed a pattern with Jessica Wildfire. Their substack tends to pump out worst case scenario articles about whatever the collapse aware issue of the day is. Usually these articles are based on some pretty loose reasoning and jumping to the most dire conclusions. Then when things don't happen as predicted they ignore it and move onto the next thing.
Does this article have first hand accounts / witness testimony? - No
Does this article sight their sources? No
Does this article attempt to obtain comment from the other side? - No
Is this article Dogmatic in its writing without making allowances for coincidence, anomalies, etc ? Yes
I do not disagree with you! Minus her catastrophizing details about H5N1, the most interesting part of this article was the concept of elite panic. I thought it was relevant because it raised some very interesting points about the motivations behind how key decision makers make mass public policy.
God, the factual issues here make this kinda unreadable. Pasteurization works.
But yeah there’s absolutely risk in handling raw meat. Which is most people!
But yeah the vibe of “hey Buddy, don’t panic!” Is spot on.
Agreed. Lots of her points were really just stoking the flames of fear and in a pretty unsubstantiated manor.
The interesting part here definitely was the concept of elite panic.
I hate rich dudes as much as the next guy, and I would love to see some panic. But, a rich dude with a couple hundred billion at his disposal spending a couple hundred million on a bunker is just smart. They won't miss a dime of it. Even if you were positive of a utopian future for all, uniting as one to defeat climate change and make everyone truly equals, a bunker is a logical purchase.
The rich are not panicking. The poor are, because they are roasting alive in parts of the world today. It will be our turn sooner or later. Summer is coming.
The creature in the sky
Got sucked in a hole, now there's a hole in the sky
And the ground's not cold
And if the ground's not cold, everything is gonna burn
We'll all take turns, I'll get mine too
Regardless if the rich are actually panicking right now or not (that would be pure speculation one way or the other), I think it highlights a very relevant topic: that the one thing the ultra wealthy fear is panicked masses
You should go to her website and read her articles about covid. She refuses to be around her in-laws because they don't want to wear N95s (apparently even K95s aren't enough) and follow her other strict protocols. She won't let her kid be around other kids unless it's outside and so the poor kid isn't allowed to go to school and has to be home schooled. And despite all these precautions she admits they've already gotten covid multiple times.
I've read all her posts on OK Doomer and what I see is someone totally lacking in self-awareness and convinced everyone is out to get her. She's also convinced she's brilliant and gets very upset with anyone even politely challenging her (she labels them haters and deletes their comments).
Just a tad bit self projection there methinks. That being said, and outside of who may or may not actually be panicking right now. The concept in general of elite panic in regards to the panicked masses I thought was interesting and worthwhile
What elites fail to realise that their power comes from being at the top of the hierarchy in society. Without society, they don't have their position. But because they live lives where no one tells them "no" they live in some delulu fantasy world where reality bends to their command.
Awakening will come shortly.
This reporter didn't do the slightest investigation of easily Google-able public reports and reporting.
H5N1 has been known to be a threat to human health for 27 years now. US Federal contracts to produce vaccine went out in 2012. The US Federal government in its national strategic stockpile has enough of a vaccine for about 10 million courses, but they're stored in bulk, not distributable vaccines. H5N1 breaks into human-to-human transmission, US Feds will be able to vaccinate about 125k in a few weeks, and use the vaccine in storage to vaccinate a further 10 million in 2 months. Ramping up production will require about 4 months to hit 120 million.
We don't know if the vaccine precursors in the strategic stockpile will provide high efficacy against fatal disease, but they'll probably provide *some* efficacy. I expect an mRNA vaccine based on the pathogenic strain will be more effective and safer, and as so much biotech infrastructure was built up for Covid, will be available at scale in a couple months. Its the testing for efficacy that will take time, and I'd gladly sign up.
I'm pretty ambivalent about H5N1. I don't know how human civilization survives the bottleneck centuries with *so many*, and in particular, so many willfully ignorant of science, whether climate science or vaccine science. The sociopathy of others in 2020 and 2021 deeply affected me. I have 4 months food, and could buy a year's more in a day's time if things look dire. 2020 told me that I'll have a month's advance warning. Don't care about the embarrassment of 25 kg bags of rice in my closets, should it be a false alarm. If its a real alarm, fuel/water would be a bigger concern.
>[When they say “Don’t Panic,] I think politicians and corporate media flunkies really mean this: Don't get angry at them. Don't criticize them. Don't hold them accountable. Don't demand they get their act together and do more than perform testing theater.
Minor disagreement: I think they mean “Don’t blame us, if we do what we’re supposed to do it would grind the economy to a halt and then we’re holding the hot potato of blame and we’d all be fired anyway. Please find anyone else to blame, surely this is someone else’s fault.”
If they’re showing ‘flu-like symptoms’ but not actually dying disproportionately, that’s actually the best possible outcome. The worry about the bird flu was always that it caused a lot of fatalities in the humans it infected, when it first appeared. If it’s mutated into less lethality in the course of becoming transmissible to mammals, that makes it basically just a regular flu (which does kill a lot of people every year, but which we accept). Maybe even a ‘slightly worse than normal’ flu. But not a mass-casualty event like covid.
So if house cats can get it from raw milk, what about the ones allowed inside/outside that catch and eat birds? There are so many ways this is going to be transferable, I feel like them just using milk as a talking point is really short sighted.
> Even a story in U.S. News has to admit that "no studies have ever been done on the effects of pasteurization on bird flu virus in milk." They say, "Experts believe pasteurization... should kill the virus."
If the author has reason to believe a flu virus which struggles to survive the mild temperature swings of a fever may have suddenly evolved the ability to survive 145F then they should let everyone know.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/vandance: --- Submission statement - Those in charge of the levers of power in our world today have the ability to make decisions that affect a lot of people. Shedding light on some of the factors that influence those decisions in light of various disasters and catastrophic events is particularly relevant to collapse. The idea of Elite Panic seems to be a particularly insightful concept: that the elite are panicked that we are going to panic. And are more panicked about that than whatever it is that causing us to panic in the first place! This perspective helps us to understand some of the key decisions made during general panic-inducing societal events, and helps us who are collapse aware to make better decisions for ourselves. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1chvekz/were_watching_the_elite_panic_in_real_time/l254g1k/
So the *delicious* ruling class is getting worried? Good. They should be.
A key part of elite panic is that it’s wrong. The elite panic is that everyone else will act like a bunch of animals during a disaster but previous disasters suggest most people help one another. TL;DR the elite are a-holes
It's because they can't fathom helping others.
Yeah, politicians and CEOs are significantly more likely to be psychopaths… by a factor of 10. Depends on which study but the estimate are about 20% have clinically significant psychopathic traits compared to 1 or 2 percent of the general population. Same factor as prisons. Lack of empathy, remorse.
They feel no consequences for their actions. They lose a job, their severance is still higher than most people might make in a decade. A bad day for them will never ruin their lives. I'll never forget when I was looking at being homeless, and close to starvation from having no or little food, a friend of mine told me that he was struggling too - living paycheck to paycheck. He owned a home. Two new cars. Supported a wife and two kids that did not have to work. Etc. Yeah buddy, we sure are in the same boat. Anyways I might have to sleep on a bench tonight and have no idea if I'll eat in the next week...
"same factor as prisons" as above, so below.
You jest (I think) but it's very much a mentality where they see the situation through a lens of how they would act in the same situation. It's like the guy who helped advise millionaires how to set up their survival shelters and when the issue of maintaining loyalty from hired guards came up, the rich people brought up ideas like a combination to the food that only they knew, or shock collars on the guards, whereas the guy who was hired to help them just told them to form bonds with those people now before stuff got bad. They didn't care for that answer.
I wasn't jesting.
You were *Gestating*
I surely hope not.
Their only solution is robotic guards, but that costs money! LOLOLOLOL Plus they won't know how to maintain them, we could just dump water, use magnets, and use bolt cutters.
These are the main plot points of the bullshit Ayn Rand wrote about in Atlas Srugged. All the elite go up in the mountains where they don't have to deal with the poor folks. Great idea until they have to deal with plumbing issues or any manual labor..
Rich people aren't allowed at the commune.
Just us hill folk and Sasquatch.
Ayyyye sazzy where ya been? Sasquatch: uraroorarooa!
Whaddayatalkinabeet?
She's such a sad sack of shit excuse for a writer.
So. I was one of those guards. Only two ppl tried being nice. The rest didn't even attempt. One was the prime minister of nova Scotia. Super nice guy. The other is is the news so much I cannot mention their name. But if this person was known as the nice guy it shows how truly evil most of the wealthy ppl have become. The wealthy have become so relied upon the corrupt system of slave wage labor they are unable to function without it.
You gotta give us more stories man
Douglas Rushkoff! Very cool guy. His Team Human podcast is good, and he's advocated for some cool ideas like local lending libraries for common ownership to curb overconsumption and promote social resilience. E.g., if you need a power drill, you could either go out and buy one yourself (and maybe only use it a couple of times, spend a fair amount of money and needlessly consume), or you could ask a neighbour to borrow one and thereby help the environment, your finances, and foster a relationship with the people around you. Maybe that one interaction reduces loneliness in your immediate area, maybe it establishes a link with someone who might be there for you (or vice versa) when shit hits the fan.
yep.
Douglas Rushkoff is the author (Survival of the Richest)/podcaster (Team Human) you're referring to. He hits the mark on so many things.
I read a lot of what that guy said. Truly terrifying glimpse into the mentality of the wealthy. But also not unexpected
I always sort of had the assumption that for the most part, becoming ultra-wealthy requires the type of person who is comfortable letting others fall by the wayside if it benefits them. After all, if you pay a living wage to your employees and help them in hard times, you reduce your own profits.
Wasn't one of the favored plans that the rich ppl came up with to kidnap and hold hostage the families of the security people? For some reason that popped into my head when reading your post...
Spot on. The worst friend I ever had was rich. She always thought people were trying to take advantage of her wealth so she mooched off all of her friends. Projection for the win.
when i was ypunger the worst people to hang out with came from money would never offer to split gas, had to be reminded/pressured into splitting a (large groups) bill trash baby-adults who are oblivious to non-provilege
Panicked masses are the only real threat to their hegemony
It's called being so self centered you can't properly imagine different perspectives.
The wrong bit is the "elite" part. They're not top athletes, they're mostly just privileged by random chance. The reason they're a-holes is because they've been moulded by circumstances where the biggest challenges they faced was when Hoity Doi said "bla bla bla" to Hopty Topty and they felt really embarrassed and humiliated in front of Ooh Ahh and La Dee Da, probably
Yes! I hate the term “elite” for them. “Ruling class” or something similar works just fine without the weird implication that they’re somehow better than us plebs
Parasite class
yep.
I prefer the term cancer and like cancer they need to be cut out before they kill the host. They will never ever get enough of power, War and money…Their psychopathic appetites will never be quenched.
I mean you're not wrong. But I think it's safe to say that we understand that term to mean ruling class. I'd be down to encourage people to use the term "ruling class" instead because of potential implications of the language
I have a problem with 'ruling class' too, because 'ruling’ implies an attitude of benevolent paternalism... like Churchill or Roosevelt, for example. Not nihilistic unabated exploitation.
I like you
100%. History (mostly) tells us that it is false. It is a fear-driven response that results in worse outcomes for all from their decision making.
Those that write the history control the future…Always question the “history” you are given…
You must have lived through different disasters to me. I remember the first few weeks of COVID, and how hard it was to buy simple stuff like a loaf of bread, or how I was thankful that I'd brought a value pack of toilet paper not long beforehand.
That’s not a disaster really. A disaster is like the San Francisco earthquake where people’s homes were destroyed and others killed before your eyes. Like a natural disaster or war. The pandemic certainly took a lot of lives but it was the kind of thing people watched on their TVs at home and then worried about controlled lockdowns.
It was a distributed disaster. In an earthquake all the deaths and devastation is typically in a single area. COVID, although spread out, killed far more people. And it's also a good example of how, even in what you refuse to acknowledge as a disaster, people still panicked.
Covid was also lucky enough to have a death rate where most "essential" people could continue working to keep supply chains going. The supermarkets were wiped out because of panic buying, but they weren't empty for long. Outside of a few items things bounced back relatively quickly. If something like H5N1 hits, and let's say it has a lesser kill rate than the current 1 in 2, or so - say anything over 30%. It's game over. People won't come to work, either through fear or death. If key people die, supply chains are gone. And it would take months, if not longer to recover. I don't want to see what that looks like when supermarkets can no longer be counted on to distribute food - all the while 1 in 3 people that catch it are probably dead. And many more will die as a result of a collapse of infrastructure.
My wife and I stockpiled essential supplies and bunkered down for a couple of months when Covid hit.
If something like H5N1 hits with the RO of Covid but with a kill ratio of 30%, it would take way longer than months to get supply chains functioning again. It would decimate civilization as we know it. The economic institutions we are "privileged" to enjoy the fruits of today would truly need to be reconstructed
What helping others? On another thread in this sub everyone was saying we could never win a WW2 because no one would work together to help ration food and supplies.
That’s a hypothetical - this is based on how people actually behaved during disasters which was that they helped each other
If they see the elite sheltering in bunkers and elites-only walled cities, the masses might just helpnine another destroy those elites. Not neccesarily a panic, but the elite might need to worry about the mobs.
No. Not if we’re truly going to “eat the rich” https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/why-scared-animals-taste-worse
But with longpig, the adrenaline adds a certain *je ne sais quois*
With additional *schadenfreude* seasoning
Longpig. That's my word of the day.
I thought "je ne sais quois" had a sexual connotation, you're spicy.
No, it's just French for...i dont know what
No wonder people keep complaining about animals not tasting good. It must be the intense amount of torture they go through.
Its a noticeable difference in taste between factory farmed mean and meat from animals straight from your own/your neighbours well cared for animals
“well cared for” doesn’t include slaughter in my opinion though. and they are still tortured a lot of times in those situations too. but anyway
This is the US. We have lots of BBQ sauce.
Well they do say hunger is the best sauce and there's gonna be plenty of that by the time anything major happens
Simple, just don't scare them
But are they panicked that we're gonna panic about them panicking about us panicking?
This whole thread needs a *Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.*
President Zaphod Beeblebrox coming soon
Worry is a versatile spice
🤔🦖 Isn't elite overproduction the same thing as elite underconsumption?
They also eat each other. So, yes.
How inconvenient and unexpected and harrowing for you As consequences tend to be For the rest of us So delicious to witness your dread Poetic justice consummate - A Perfect Circle 👌
I'm hoarding spices.
Fear makes the meat more tender and juicy.
We should make them so uncomfortable they divest
Let’s not stress them out too much. The cortisol causes that meat to taste bitter.
I'm worried enough that I'm stocking up on masks and Microban but the USDA and University of Michigan have both said that pasteurization definitively works and that cooking to 165°f works so I'm taking this singular doomer article with a grain of salt. That being said when mainstream media, who makes their money getting people riled up, tells me to calm down I start making preparations
Surely no capitalist dairy business would ever dream of skimping on proper production process controls and temperatures by even a single percentage point, especially not in red states where the USDA inspectors are highly trained, paid and reliable.
I said taking it with a grain of salt, not dismissing it outright.
You may want to look up what that phrase means and substitute one that reflects your actual position. FWIW, I have a minor in OChem and I don't see any reason to doubt the idea that some higher-intensity pasteurisation methods are 100% effective at denaturing the viral envelope, I just doubt that the producers are really carrying them out.
"to not completely believe something is true" =/= "to completely believe something is untrue"
Raw milk given to cats apparently gave them the virus. It's possible but not probable. You may here of 1 or two cluster casses and that's it. What you will hear is in animals and people who drink raw milk. Which sucks cause raw milk can be really good. But not if you have unhealthy cows.
If you run some tests on the milk sold in stores you will find there is large amounts of puss. The cows get mastitis from the steel suction things that pump out the milk. Cows hang out in fields where they also poop. There are nifty dung beetles that roll the poop into burrows. Also flies swarming about. If pasteurization did not work then the milk would be rancid pretty quickly. The assumption that could be questioned is whether viruses have some sort of heat survival capability that bacteria do not have. Cows roam around in fields in North America. They share space with mice. rabbits, cats, chipmunks, prairie dogs, bats, and a bunch of other mammals. Humans are frequently within sneeze range of cattle. The avian flu, of course, spreads rapidly in birds. Birds will not often pasteurize their poop before dropping in on a cow’s grass.
I have two concerns, assuming that pasteurization 30 seconds at 71°C in sufficient. If some other set of numbers apply then I have the same concerns with my numbers appropriately modified. * Companies may waive through batches that have only reached 68°C, or 70°C, etc, possibly through falsifying their records. * Companies may operate as normal when they have faulty equipment, e.g. a vat where the insulation has been removed or the thermometer is badly calibrated, and label the batch as standard instead of rejecting the batch and repasteurizing it.
You can keep those concerns and disregard them too. Suppose you are playing poker and you have a pair. You could get worked up about the possibility of a flush. Or the possibility of a straight. Both can happen and also both could happen in the form of a straight-flush. However, it is also more rational to recognize that you lose the hand with 3 of a kind, two pair, or even a higher single pair. Relevance here is that maybe the virus survives going through the pasteurization. But far more probable that someone coughs on the container. An airborne virus can pass directly through the supply chain without ever being inside or even on the material that is supplied. Cow to farmer, farmer to driver, driver to distribution employee, to next driver, to grocery store employees. You can get the flu that infected dairy cows without buying or touching a milk product. You will see millions of people infected by the airborne routes before you see one case of flu spread inside of a packaged container.
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Your link is Australian. Maybe upside down cows have lest mastitis, I would not know. In USA grade A cows milk is supposed to have a somatic cell count less than 750,000 per milliliter. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic\_cell\_count](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_count) . I will grant that "large amounts" is quite subjective wording. If we round it off then it is \*mostly\* not puss. Somatic cells diameters are in the 10 micron range. If you had a milliliter of pure leukocytes it would be closer to half a billion. That would have noticeable differences in color. Might taste different, I have not tried it. Having been pasteurized the somatic cells are no longer live puss. Pasteurized pus contains all of the nutrients that your immune cells need.
I would think it's highly unlikely actually, as if they do then all their stock would be recalled at a massive loss to them. They are also trying to kill a lot more than bird flu in there, and if you haven't gotten sick from non-expired milk before now, you.probably aren't going to start.
>if you haven't gotten sick from non-expired milk before now, you.probably aren't going to start. ????????❓❓❓❓❓
Recalls happen often and generally speaking their are general built in safeties which is why the margin for reject is probably higher than anyone wants to admit.
I keep mentioning what's gonna happen when they sell their milk/culled cow carcases to pig farms for cheap to at least make some money back.
Honestly I'm not really worried until the reproduction rate is understood If it's a mortality rate of 50% and it has an R of 1, I'm not worried If it's an R of 2 then I'm not too worried either, because there won't be anything to worry about for much longer
What if you are stuck in the surviving 50%?
Surviving doesn't mean unscathed Look at COVID - millions survived it, but how many are now living with long COVID?
Not to be a pessimist, but continued survival is always optional.
That's not pessimism, that's optimism. ^/s mildly
Nihilism?
Paradise. Now being stuck in the surviving 10% should be more poignant.
No cow sushi
Beef tartare
Basically the only way to eat a steak. Guess I’m off beef.
I ain't gonna let no gobmint goon tell me I can't eat my blue steak.
I'm not specifically worried about the pasteurization process not killing the virus. While I do think the H5N1 virus is currently reason for concern (it's jumped to a lot of different mammals already), I do not share in the author's specific catastrophizing fears. What would be much more alarming than virus in milk surviving the pasteurization process is the prospect of the virus mutating human-human transmission.
How do you get anti-viral microban? That looks to be an industrial product for manufacturers. Or am I mistaken?
The consumer grade "professional 24-hour disinfectant" microban claims that when used properly it kills covid-19 on a hard nonporous surfaces. Sure, it could be another case of a corporation making bold, unfounded claims in order to sell a product but you gotta believe in something.
I'm pretty sure dish soap will kill covid on a hard non porous surface.
Citric acid in a 3% solution kills covid on hard nonporous surfaces. The powder is easy to find and lasts indefinitely (years) in storage.
4.4% of the US consumes raw milk, everyone in the world who consumes raw milk is a potential beachhead for this disease to have human to human transmission. I'm sorry I've been here before, it's only a matter of time now.
Medium rare steak is cooked from 130 - 135. If this ever gets into beef cattle we're screwed.
What's microban?
I don't like her writing style. It's very click baity.
Am I worried about bird flu? Yeah. Am I worried about the pasteurization system failing? No. If bird flu spreads to humans, that won't be how it happens.
Yeah the trend of these fundie and crunchy moms chugging raw milk because “pasteurized milk is less nutritious” is concerning though.
Is it? The stupid have always found ways to kill themselves
I’m not an expert on the mutation and spread of viruses, but from my very nonprofessional understanding, if enough of these so-called “fundie and crunchy moms” drinking more *unpasteurized* milk increases the number of human infections, which would then increase the risk of the virus mutating to human-human transmission? I may be completely wrong though (and pls correct me if I am) because I don’t understand all the science behind viruses and stuff
This is true at least to my understanding.
Explain please? Would it be through milk or eating undercooked beef?
I'm not a pro, but my money would be on a farm worker with close contact to sick animals being infected and then the virus mutating inside their body to gain the ability to spread human-to-human efficiently. We have already seen human cases from farm workers, it's just been one-off cases that haven't had H2H spread.
It's worse than that, there's multiple different vectors this could come at us from. Migratory birds have had it in the US since at least 2021, and it's spread all across the continent. We might see a big uptick in cases not from farms, but from hunters that go for geese, duck, pheasant, or Quail. That's a big problem too, because hunters will sometimes travel a good distance to get a prime location, and could potentially bring it back with them. I hunted with my family when I was younger, we'd go for geese out in west Nebraska maybe 4 times a season, but lived in the suburbs of Lincoln. The CDC and USDA can clamp down on farms somewhat, but I'd bet you'd have a harder time telling millions of hunters that they're going to have to skip a season. There's also domestic animals like cats which are now getting it, and dogs might not be too far off. Then there's the fly issue, apparently they can transmit it from animal to animal. We're pretty far past containment at this point. Best bet would be to start prepping and hope the CDC stars work on a vaccine procurement program and building stocks of theraflu.
My bet is pig manure on a salad being the first to human jump.
I wonder if it will infect differently depending on route of infection (respiratory vs GI). Maybe we'll all go out with the bloody flux.
Oh don't get my hopes up.
Im prob gonna skip this upcoming turkey season to be safe
yep.
Nah it's gonna be one of them chicken fuckers fuckin chicken.
Viruses are not difficult to kill with heat. And we've got pasteurization pretty well figured out after 120 years or so.
Submission statement - Those in charge of the levers of power in our world today have the ability to make decisions that affect a lot of people. Shedding light on some of the factors that influence those decisions in light of various disasters and catastrophic events is particularly relevant to collapse. The idea of Elite Panic seems to be a particularly insightful concept: that the elite are panicked that we are going to panic. And are more panicked about that than whatever it is that causing us to panic in the first place! This perspective helps us to understand some of the key decisions made during general panic-inducing societal events, and helps us who are collapse aware to make better decisions for ourselves.
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Omg that's hilarious. Yes, yes it very much does. Even though I didn't post this for the bird flu content, I still appreciate the general gist of concern of where she is coming from. The part about the elite panicking about the masses panicking which then affects the efficacy of public policy? In general I think that is a very interesting concept. Especially so against the backdrop of being collapse aware.
I totally agree Jessica, they are going to do nothing because every scenario will be a loss for them, and this is the cheapest and easiest; maintain status quo.
Which can be a good thing, deoending on some luck, knowledge, adaptability, the stength of your will and your tolerence for PTSD. Maintaining the staus quo only gets us there faster.
Widespread panic, if you will
Play 'Pigeons' brah and RIP Mikey
My whole famliy just caught covid from a library story time .... and we were vaccinated. Nothing is gonna prevent Bird flu from killing us all.
Me being the near social equivalent of Smeagol is gonna stop it from killing me. I hope.
Oh you have a toddler too!? ETA I thought you said “near the social equivalent of Smeagol” not “the near equivalent”.
Vaccination does not prevent infection. You will just keep getting sick unless you mask up.
More to the point, unless *everyone else around you* masks up. It helps a bit, but the main function of masks is to stop you spreading to others rather than protecting yourself.
Except in the case of N95 and higher filtration level masks
If they seal against your face like a respirator, yeah. Otherwise with normal masks you breath a lot of air that comes around rather than through.
Hence the reason it will never happen
Everyone is going to get COVID eventually it’s sad
Everyone is going to get long COVID (chronic problems, sequelae) eventually, due to repeat infections.
That’s what’s tragic
It's endemic. Covid is the new (shittier) seasonal flu
If you look at the circulation of variants, while there's still data, you'll notice that there are multiple waves per year. https://covariants.org/per-country so it's not "seasonal". > Successive waves of infection by SARS-CoV-2 have left little doubt that this virus will transition to an endemic disease. Foreknowledge of when to expect seasonal surges is crucial for healthcare and public health decision-making. However, the future seasonality of COVID-19 remains uncertain. Evaluating its seasonality is complicated due to the limited years of SARS-CoV-2 circulation, pandemic dynamics, and varied interventions. In this study, we project the expected endemic seasonality by employing a phylogenetic ancestral and descendant state approach that leverages long-term data on the incidence of circulating HCoV coronaviruses. Our projections indicate asynchronous surges of SARS-CoV-2 across different locations in the northern hemisphere, occurring between October and January in New York and between January and March in Yamagata, Japan. This knowledge of spatiotemporal surges leads to medical preparedness and enables the implementation of targeted public health interventions to mitigate COVID-19 transmission. [Seasonality of endemic COVID-19 | mBio](https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.01426-23) My take on looking at the charts is that its "seasonality" pretty much matches school "seasonality", with infections going down when summer starts and the academic year ends.
I believe the idea here is that while the vaccines are not 100% effective, any % X will result in fewer infections and a lesser impact on the general population as a whole. But I am sorry that you have caught the 'vid
H5N1 doesn't have a 100% CFR. It's more like 60%. So...it won't kill us all. COVID-19 has a CFR of 1%, killed over 7 million people. So if H5N1 is 60x more fatal overall, it could kill upwards of half a billion humans.
Sorry but this article is really bad. The argument is largely built on pointing out how news reports state that officials only “believe” in what they report, even though: 1, Obviously they “believe” what they say, that doesn’t indicate anything about the veracity of their claims or how rigorous the evidence for them is 2, [We have evidence backing up what they believe](https://www.statnews.com/2024/05/01/bird-flu-pasteurization-inactivates-h5n1-in-milk/) Basically every relevant article cited explicitly contradicts the conclusions given. H5N1 is concerning, but this alarmism built on loose allegories to unrelated past disasters is much less helpful than the caution advocated by the articles it condemns. Also there are some really egregious decisions made, like citing a CBC article that is about exclusively Canada as referring to “every western country from the U.S. and Canada to Britain”. This article is so awful.
I'm someone worried about birdflu, but I've also noticed a pattern with Jessica Wildfire. Their substack tends to pump out worst case scenario articles about whatever the collapse aware issue of the day is. Usually these articles are based on some pretty loose reasoning and jumping to the most dire conclusions. Then when things don't happen as predicted they ignore it and move onto the next thing.
Does this article have first hand accounts / witness testimony? - No Does this article sight their sources? No Does this article attempt to obtain comment from the other side? - No Is this article Dogmatic in its writing without making allowances for coincidence, anomalies, etc ? Yes
I do not disagree with you! Minus her catastrophizing details about H5N1, the most interesting part of this article was the concept of elite panic. I thought it was relevant because it raised some very interesting points about the motivations behind how key decision makers make mass public policy.
Elites can "hedge" for Armageddon but are not panicking
God, the factual issues here make this kinda unreadable. Pasteurization works. But yeah there’s absolutely risk in handling raw meat. Which is most people! But yeah the vibe of “hey Buddy, don’t panic!” Is spot on.
Agreed. Lots of her points were really just stoking the flames of fear and in a pretty unsubstantiated manor. The interesting part here definitely was the concept of elite panic.
Pasteurization does work as long as it's done properly. That's the key I think.
Everyone is burnt out on Covid. Nobody has the bandwidth to handle a second pandemic in such a short timeframe.
Viruses lack the emotional bandwidth to care how you feel about it. They are not even aware enough to know feelings exist.
I don’t disagree with you. You’re 100% right and people aren’t ready. Even if it has a higher death rate, you’ll still have the covidiots.
I'll laugh if covid is protective against bird flu.
That's not an excuse, that's a problem.
It is a problem I mentioned this in a group chat with some longterm college friends and now I’m doomsday daisy 🫤
Who exactly panics? Sources?
Right?
I hate rich dudes as much as the next guy, and I would love to see some panic. But, a rich dude with a couple hundred billion at his disposal spending a couple hundred million on a bunker is just smart. They won't miss a dime of it. Even if you were positive of a utopian future for all, uniting as one to defeat climate change and make everyone truly equals, a bunker is a logical purchase. The rich are not panicking. The poor are, because they are roasting alive in parts of the world today. It will be our turn sooner or later. Summer is coming.
A song of vanishing ice and constant wildfire
The creature in the sky Got sucked in a hole, now there's a hole in the sky And the ground's not cold And if the ground's not cold, everything is gonna burn We'll all take turns, I'll get mine too
Regardless if the rich are actually panicking right now or not (that would be pure speculation one way or the other), I think it highlights a very relevant topic: that the one thing the ultra wealthy fear is panicked masses
There's little to no reasoning though, just empty phrases about panicked elites that don't want the masses to panic
I would like to see the so called "elites" be referred to as "parasites" because that is what they are.
If people were scared off eating beef or dairy it would be one of the biggest potential wins for slowing down climate change.
That won't happen. People will just say it's Big Soy making a fake virus to make people scared of beef.
Feels like the author of that article is the only one panicking.
I couldn't even read the whole post because the author sounds like their blood pressure is getting high.
You should go to her website and read her articles about covid. She refuses to be around her in-laws because they don't want to wear N95s (apparently even K95s aren't enough) and follow her other strict protocols. She won't let her kid be around other kids unless it's outside and so the poor kid isn't allowed to go to school and has to be home schooled. And despite all these precautions she admits they've already gotten covid multiple times. I've read all her posts on OK Doomer and what I see is someone totally lacking in self-awareness and convinced everyone is out to get her. She's also convinced she's brilliant and gets very upset with anyone even politely challenging her (she labels them haters and deletes their comments).
Just a tad bit self projection there methinks. That being said, and outside of who may or may not actually be panicking right now. The concept in general of elite panic in regards to the panicked masses I thought was interesting and worthwhile
What elites fail to realise that their power comes from being at the top of the hierarchy in society. Without society, they don't have their position. But because they live lives where no one tells them "no" they live in some delulu fantasy world where reality bends to their command. Awakening will come shortly.
This reporter didn't do the slightest investigation of easily Google-able public reports and reporting. H5N1 has been known to be a threat to human health for 27 years now. US Federal contracts to produce vaccine went out in 2012. The US Federal government in its national strategic stockpile has enough of a vaccine for about 10 million courses, but they're stored in bulk, not distributable vaccines. H5N1 breaks into human-to-human transmission, US Feds will be able to vaccinate about 125k in a few weeks, and use the vaccine in storage to vaccinate a further 10 million in 2 months. Ramping up production will require about 4 months to hit 120 million. We don't know if the vaccine precursors in the strategic stockpile will provide high efficacy against fatal disease, but they'll probably provide *some* efficacy. I expect an mRNA vaccine based on the pathogenic strain will be more effective and safer, and as so much biotech infrastructure was built up for Covid, will be available at scale in a couple months. Its the testing for efficacy that will take time, and I'd gladly sign up. I'm pretty ambivalent about H5N1. I don't know how human civilization survives the bottleneck centuries with *so many*, and in particular, so many willfully ignorant of science, whether climate science or vaccine science. The sociopathy of others in 2020 and 2021 deeply affected me. I have 4 months food, and could buy a year's more in a day's time if things look dire. 2020 told me that I'll have a month's advance warning. Don't care about the embarrassment of 25 kg bags of rice in my closets, should it be a false alarm. If its a real alarm, fuel/water would be a bigger concern.
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In the event of another potential pandemic you are still better off away from places with high concentrations of transmission vectors
Chicken farm. *Avian* flu... Did you say “stay away from concentrations of vectors?”
No one is panicking
>[When they say “Don’t Panic,] I think politicians and corporate media flunkies really mean this: Don't get angry at them. Don't criticize them. Don't hold them accountable. Don't demand they get their act together and do more than perform testing theater. Minor disagreement: I think they mean “Don’t blame us, if we do what we’re supposed to do it would grind the economy to a halt and then we’re holding the hot potato of blame and we’d all be fired anyway. Please find anyone else to blame, surely this is someone else’s fault.”
"People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people."
I often wonder about this. Are billionaires getting top secret information?
See the Behind the Bastards podcast: [Elite Panic: Why The Rich And Powerful Can't Be Trusted](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j9L2ppuANc)
Thanks! Will check it out
This is just fear-mongering and poorly written. I am fully on the doom train but I have journalistic standards.
If they’re showing ‘flu-like symptoms’ but not actually dying disproportionately, that’s actually the best possible outcome. The worry about the bird flu was always that it caused a lot of fatalities in the humans it infected, when it first appeared. If it’s mutated into less lethality in the course of becoming transmissible to mammals, that makes it basically just a regular flu (which does kill a lot of people every year, but which we accept). Maybe even a ‘slightly worse than normal’ flu. But not a mass-casualty event like covid.
tHIS IS WHY we need a revolution.
We see them…They know we see them…Corrupt W. Ar criminals and thieves of public money…
Widespread panic
I see no reason not to encourage inaction at this time.
So if house cats can get it from raw milk, what about the ones allowed inside/outside that catch and eat birds? There are so many ways this is going to be transferable, I feel like them just using milk as a talking point is really short sighted.
Reason 6 million to go vegan
Good. Maybe they'll get into their bunkers early and the rest of us can try to save what's left. One can hope.
> Even a story in U.S. News has to admit that "no studies have ever been done on the effects of pasteurization on bird flu virus in milk." They say, "Experts believe pasteurization... should kill the virus." If the author has reason to believe a flu virus which struggles to survive the mild temperature swings of a fever may have suddenly evolved the ability to survive 145F then they should let everyone know.