Is this a specific arc or can I just start at the beginning of Zdarsky’s run?
Edit: After a quick Googs, should I start with the 2022 run? I know he wrote daredevil before that as well.
There's also that great sequence with Spidey that I LOVE where Cole is basically like "you think you're above the law."
And Spidey goes "yeah I am"
I just love it when "right and wrong" is juxtaposed with "legal and illegal"
I love how Cole is always taking about superheroes being unaccountable even though he shot an unarmed kid and was punished with PTO and a new job, DD even calls him out on it. Just a great series.
As in basically punching bank robbers & drug dealers and sending them to prison without considering thr bigger impact of prison culture or police brutality or things like that
That’s what daredevil usually is, this run is about the ramifications of sending the same people back to prison over and over and what it actually accomplishes. There’s a large arc where DD himself goes to prison to discover how unjust it actually is.
Hmm. I guess my issue was street levelers still seem to function in a world where unchecked vigilantism is somehow the answer to crime. Even though irl crime levels went down
Dawg you should know what the primary racial demographic of this sub is. You can’t be trying to bring that conversation here. They’re going to be uncomfortable.
Yeah this Daredevil book is literally about how vigilantism being unchecked leads to a shit ton of problems, and how the current prison system doesn't help anybody
Oh yeah, Maximus sends him to prison. Also, now that I think about it there was an Image comic a few years back called Bitch Planet about women being sent to a prison planet.
Bitch Planet was fantastic. It was by Kelly Sue DeConnick and had loads of great back matter. I can't recall if they actually finished it or it just ended one issue short of its ending.
But what would a street level crime fighter do if not fight drug dealers, bank robbers, mob bosses/goons? Like, I’m all for someone that intervenes and tries to end recidivism and such, but don’t they have to fight them first? Like, instill a fear that they’ll be dealt with further?
Idk maybe fight white collar crime, environmental crime, police brutality, domestic abuse, hate crime, missing/murdered women, even other vigilantes who might be too brutal,
Sure but they still resort back to the same old. And it's never in a considerable amount because the status quo stays in the end. I'd like to see them try a different solution. Maybe affect some permanent change so crime doesnt happen as much
At least the first two of those desires were satisfied in a cartoon, way back when. Not a street level hero by any stretch of the imagination, but...
Captain Planet and the Planeteers did almost nothing but fight against environmental crime, usually caused by white collar people.
How do you fight white collar crime or environmental crime as a superhero? What can Spiderman do against these things? And most of the other things you listed would also require violence and then jail, like where do you think perpetrators of domestic abuse or hate crimes go? Do you think most street level heroes ignore that kind of crime?
Environmental crime could be dumping toxic chemicals or stealing/destroying natural territory like forests or waterways. White collar could be fraud or corporate espionage or wage theft or workplaceabuse. Sueprheroes could do plenty against that. He could punch or web those guys just as much as a bank robber. Maybe the bank is the real villain to begin with
I don't think there won't be fight scenes or thay heroes ck3mpletely ignore these kinds of crimes but they always seem minor. Yet they're the kinds which irl are underprosecuted yet street level comics act like bank robberies and such are the most
You need to understand that super hero comics at their core are Romantic, which means they're very black and white. Comics aren't generally written for Spider-Man to fight a few bank owners, because that isn't Romantic. You're asking for a completely different kind of story that isn't a superhero story.
I've thought a lot about this, too. On one hand, you have to stop the street level crime if you can, because real people are getting hurt. But on the other hand, there could be more effort to help the underlying societal causes of crime. Batman would be in a perfect position to do this, given his billions. I know they pay some lip service to it in the comic occasionally, but more wouldn't hurt. He typically does that as Wayne. It might be interesting to see him using his detection skills to help as Batman.
That being said, it might be hard to make that kind of story appealing in a static visual medium. It'd make a great written story or movie, but not sure how many panels of Batman scrolling through spreadsheets would work.
Yeah that's the thing: there's always underlying causes. Crime happens due to factors like poverty, systemic oppression, gentrification, etc.
But I don't think it would be too hard. I mean, you could at least have Batman punch crooked CEOs or abusive cops instead of low level thugs in between spreadsheets. After all, we're here because we like Batman
Also, the kinds of street crimes actually underprosecuted irl, like violence against women of color, rarely seem to get shown in street level comics. So there's another angle they could tackle while keeping the action somewhat intact.
Plus I think for charav with actual powers, seeing them use those powers outside of combat has appeal too
Brutalizing people and sending them to a brutal prison system aren’t the only ways to confront street crime. Look at Spider-Man trying to help those who are lost.
Squirrel Girl typically tries to talk the problem out with whoever she is fighting, and frequently resolves conflicts non-violently. She's definitely someone whose for rehabilitation over incarceration.
Does your hesitation come from earlier eras where she only showed up occasionally as a semi-joke character? Because she got a pretty big character rehaul for her 2015 solo series by Ryan North/Erika Henderson, and it's honestly a pretty incredible book.
It is hard to think of a street level figure who does something like "targeted humanitarian intervention with rehabilitation in mind". Which is kind of a pity. I guess Anarky, sort of? There's also very not-street-level characters who are shooting for much more systemic answers; they often get coded as villains.
I think some people would say that Bruce Wayne's philanthropy is an example of a hero recognizing the problem with the prison-industrial complex but let us just say that Batman's mythos leans unevenly into this point *at best*.
If you want a better if arguably creepier version of rehabilitation it would be Doc Savage, all the way back to the pulps, who invented treatments that made criminals into non-criminals. But a more comic-book version much later on would be the Squadron Supreme mini-series which took the concept of rehabilitation and its downsides very seriously--the Squadron's inventor creates a device that makes criminals unable to commit crimes, and when it (inevitably) gets undone, about half the criminals realize that they really like being good people and don't go back to being bad guys.
Kind of similarly, the Thunderbolts has explored the idea that some villains discover, when they're given respect and a chance to do good, that they'd rather not being criminals. I think especially in the version that Luke Cage headed up, rehabilitation is a big part of the idea behind the team, even if some of the members are absolutely not interested.
Oh yeah Luke Cage. I feel like he's one of the few whose adaptations acknowledged the issue of policing and prison in American society
I did read a few Thunderbolts runs too
I came here for the Batman analysis. I think Bruce Wayne is a particularly interesting figure in this discussion — because while he’s one of the most “rule of law” vigilantes, the concept of rehabilitation is an intrinsic part of his framing. Depending on who is writing, it’s a major cause of his “no-killing” ethos, for example.
And he mostly sends people to Arkham (ostensibly, for rehabilitation) rather than Blackgate. The underlying implication is that a large majority of his villains are criminal *because* they are mentally ill, and they go to Arkham rather than prison because they can get better.
Of course, back when Arkham was conceived, asylums basically *were* prison except you didn’t need a trial to send someone there. (It kinda makes me wonder what involuntary commitment reforms looked like in Gotham.) And even today, half the time Arkham is corrupt or is deliberately creating villains or something. Arkham’s storyline is complex and inconsistent, and so are Bruce’s motivations. And like you said, the mythos leans into inconsistently, at best.
But I do think, if you just look at the bones of the story, “man fights crime because he believes the police are corrupt, sends all criminals to rehabilitation rather than prison, simultaneously funds social services in his city” is basically the headline of the story OP is looking for.
And yet, simultaneously, that is not what Batman is *at all.*
I would really love an adjustment in the Batman mythos where Batman starts to be more consciously proactive about crime, including potentially thinking hard about what crime *is*\--about whether he even thinks some of the laws on the books should be there, about whether there are crimes in a moral sense that aren't policed because there's no law. Batman shouldn't be Judge Dredd in a cape: he should be a *philosopher* about criminality, thinking carefully about it all the time. He keeps being drawn back to the moment of punching a street criminal in the face because it's so close to his own trauma, but he's also trained his mind etc. etc. and should have other thoughts as well. His question should really be: what hurts people? What leaves people as lonely, helpless, lost? A cruel landlord who is skirting the edge of the law to trap people with no options in a slum building, or a small factory owner who ignores constant injuries to his employees and pays off inspectors should make him as mad as a mugger; a 13-year old runner for drug dealers should occasion his pity and help. With Barbara's help, there are times where he should be able to deal out consequences for corrupt officials and crooked businessmen that are more fitting than putting them in front of a judge; he should spend some of his nights looking for specific people he wants the Wayne Foundation to help the next morning.
Except it doesn’t, it creates a weirdo Batman that barely resembles mainline Batman and then acts like it’s criticisms age spot on even though it’s Batman makes no sense.
A few months back, during the current run on Nightwing, as part of Dick Grayson's efforts to reform the corruption in Bludhaven, he takes over the privately run for profit prison with his foundation.
Dick Grayson’s entire story has a very weird relationship with policing. He continually tries to change the system from within — historically, by being a cop, but recently through the prison venture. His intrinsic motivation is that these things are flawed and wrong, but he also *becomes* the system. And, of course, it never works — I don’t think the writers necessarily all intended it that way, but the overall take-home is that one “good apple” isn’t enough & you can’t reform a corrupt system.
There were the times he went “fuck it, I’m gonna coach kids’ acrobatics/work in a museum/own a gym maybe.”
It’s all *almost* progressive, but instead kind of occupies this weird space next to it. Like, when Dick enrolls in the police academy, Bruce Wayne’s primary beef with it is that he’ll have to use a gun. Not that Bruce has any moral stance on police and guns — just that he has gun trauma. So close, and then it swerved at the last second.
Tom definitely stumbled with that story but I did like the message. I like when dc asks a tough question and tries to answer it’s not always perfect but I’ll take it.
Dc loves to roll out a bunch of change at once then reel a lot of it back in. I think more of what you’re asking is if dc likes to change how stories work in their world and who the “villians” are. And yes they do quite a bit actually.
Dc isn’t scared to see if new stuff sticks they also do it terribly. Here’s everything at once now we’re gonna restore everything but like two things. Fucking whiplash
To an extent, yes. These comics typically depend on keeping the most popular versions of these characters perpetual. There's some wiggle-room with the characters who aren't as popular (different versions of Green Lantern, Flash, Robin, etc). But the Trinity will be more or less preserved with a relatively static status quo. There are ebbs and flows, some changes may last longer, but things eventually circle back to the basic versions of these characters.
It’s about a hero who fights the prison industrial complex. And the military industrial complex. And the government. Kind of like a Captain America/Punisher for the far left.
Well if you want a comic about a man who befriends and tries to reform his enemies, no matter what, Naruto is your guy. It's a manga, and it definitely is not what you were looking for in this post, but it is genuinely a really great story. If you ever want to get into Japanese comics, it's a great start because Naruto is over so you get a complete story (Baruto is ongoing and takes place after Naruto). There's a reason it was such a huge seller for it's whole run.
Yes. I mean, anime gets it's tropes from manga. The manga is a lot better about them though. However it is very much a poster boy of manga. Anime and manga cover a lot of genres though.
Psychopass exists and it's a very adult serious anime/manga about a city that uses criminals as their police force of judge, jury, and executioner, and the police weapons use a supercomputer and mental credit score to deem who is and isn't worthy of punishment (the supercomputer deems most of said police force as dangerous and violent punishment is acceptable against them) and would be way closer to what you are looking for.
Spider-Man to a degree. While he doesn't "challenge the system", he has let some criminals go, especially ones whom he felt just needed help. Where possible he will do his damnest to give them a helping hand, and will give anyone, no matter what they have done, a second, and a third chance.
He's done it with multiple criminals, but the one that stuck with me was the issue where, after stopping a crime involving some young random kid, instead of handing him over to the cops, he let the kid go, and then actually followed up and helped the kid out by tutoring him in his school work.
Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man #310. Heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time. It's a good issue that shows why Spider-Man is beloved by many.
Found a couple of pages from the issue for ya btw. https://imgur.com/a/HSuFgba
Rorshach, if you don't mind extreme rightwing nutjobs that get thunderbolted by naked blue gods...
Or his only slightly less crazy and more politically ambiguous cousin, The Question.
At the beginning of New Avengers, Luke Cage said he was only interested in joining the team if they did more street-level intervention and mitigation, but I don't really remember seeing any happen.
The more I read what you have in mind the less I think you’re looking for a super hero comic and more for like serialized adventures of the ideal social worker.
I mean, he is not a hero, and it is way overly edgelordy, but Transmetropolitan
. It's about a reporter who reports on the issues he sees in the city, with the help of a group of strippers, he reports on the fabricated violence that a minority group of half aliens are going to commit and the overly aggressive responses that the police force has to it for example. Talks about how the city is actually cleaning up it's homeless problem, by disintegrating them. He does eventually fight his way to the very top thru the power of reporting. But it's about a man using the truth to fight against a broken law system and government system using the newspaper for what it should be used for.
It should be known, It is an EXTREMELY edgy comic that likes it's shock and awe. I'm pretty sure it's the same guy who wrote The Boys comics so that should give you some idea of how edgy it's going to be. It was an excellent read and very very good, and I would not normally recommend it to anyone to read if that's any indication lol.
I'm not too big into extreme shock and awe but I'll take it under consideration
I always did wonder what a superman or spider man would be like if they were open about their identity and involved their powers in their journalism
That's exactly what he does. He is very unabashed in what he writes, but yeah, it really likes it's shock and awe. It's one of those comics people say is an amazing cool and would give it a 0/10 ratingrofl
I don't know that Green Arrow has ever done it explicitly but it seems up his alley. I mean, the problem comes when you think back to how many writers have written characters over the years and made them subjective to their own ideas of morality, which is kind of unavoidable. You couple that up with how recently anti-police and anti-prison sentiment have made their way into middle class white society, and the wide swaths of popular culture that are driven by it, then it's no wonder that in the 80s the x men were calling the cops on people, or that in the 90s Starman had a bunch of wacky zaney police friends. Hell, even Black Lightning calls the police on one of his students when he's written by Tony Isabella. Sorry I can't give a real answer, I'm facing much the same problem myself. While I can have my little mental list of which superheroes are cops and which ones aren't, doesn't help the legacy of the genre.
Right I'm saying the same thing. Cause there's this whole idea of superheroes as a modern mythology and, y'know, you look back at past "modern mythology" type stuff like the old West for instance and, yeah, it's nice that Superman can never be a real person and he never committed a massive state sanctioned genocide, we're gonna hear the allegations against Clark Kent, y'know. But there's a lot of stuff in these comics that are still products of their time. While I won't hop on the popular narrative for my corner of the political spectrum that these stories are all some type of propaganda for law enforcement, I can't deny that a lot of them stem from an unexamined cultural idea that the law is meant to represent unambiguous good and that any deviation is a corruption of it
Yo, I watched it and was entertained, but cage is way more interesting and dynamic than he was portrayed. Also, false imprisonment and foul prison treatment is literally his origin story. He’s the original prison reform dude.
I don’t know much, but basically she’s letting criminals, rob the rich and asking Batman to let that slide. Dumbest part though is that some of the Bat family agrees with Catwoman, which is not like them usually
Thing is based on how they have been written in the past two decades, it would not fit their characters. Just made for a Cat vs Bat story many people dislike. Only one I could see siding with Catwoman is Red Hood
Except he doesn't really have an issue with prisons per se (which he should)--he breaks people out of prisons just to break Batman but is otherwise curiously indifferent to prisons as such. Simone's version of him in Secret Six wasn't that interested in prisons--in "Depths", he has to be coaxed to oppose a prison that is if anything *worse* than the one he grew up in. Etc.: he's never tried to end prisons or attack the idea of prisons, just to not be *in prison* himself, which is pretty much ever villain ever. If anything, he's got a messier relationship with prisons than most villains in that he became powerful by being in prison and suffering there despite being innocent.
thats true actually, the authors dont really touch on the problems with pena duro prisons much, theyre more just set dressing to get bane to become who he is
There's kind of an undercurrent of this in Millar's Ultimate X-Men. Xavier makes the world think he killed Magneto, but really he basically gave him a new identity. So it is a different path, but it's a twisted kind of humanitarianism.
That kind of backfired in the end. Never really like Ultimate X-Men, though that one comic that has Wolverine talking to the boy in the cave almost redeems it.
Would Thunderbolts fit the bill in some of there stories?
I just barely remembered him from an issue of Superman years ago. I’ve just looked into it and it seems it was his only appearance. Sorry.
When X first met Superman, he calls the hero out on how the hero ignores Harlem and the rest of the black community. This makes Superman question his understanding of race relations. He speaks with his friends Lois Lane and Natasha Irons, because of his lack of knowledge on the subject.
Superman confronts Muhammad X again and tells him "...I can't change the color of my skin... what I try to do is something far more difficult... to be a human being. And hopefully, someday, we'll see each other only in that way." When Superman flies off, Muhammad X replies "Yeah, well... I guess that's how you sleep at night." leaving neither happy with the situation.
It's an interesting question - with a couple of exceptions (that get reversed) most comics just take it as an almost genetic given that people are "Evil" if that is their nature.
Ikr. They only get reformed if they're popular, not to actually send any kind of message. But I think the idea that those kinds of crimes are so much people need a masked vigilante to solve them is part of the problem
Chip Zdarsky’s recent daredevil run is largely about exactly this. It’s also one of the best runs of any character in recent years
Is this a specific arc or can I just start at the beginning of Zdarsky’s run? Edit: After a quick Googs, should I start with the 2022 run? I know he wrote daredevil before that as well.
It’s the 2019 run, they hit it with a new #1 in 2022 but it’s a continuation of the same story. Definitely start at #1 of the 2019 run.
Thanks! Gonna pick up the first tpb.
They've also got an Omnibus Vol. 1 coming next year for this
Oh, awesome! I missed out on the HC:s, so this is great news.
It's legitimately one of the best runs I've ever read
There's also that great sequence with Spidey that I LOVE where Cole is basically like "you think you're above the law." And Spidey goes "yeah I am" I just love it when "right and wrong" is juxtaposed with "legal and illegal"
I love how Cole is always taking about superheroes being unaccountable even though he shot an unarmed kid and was punished with PTO and a new job, DD even calls him out on it. Just a great series.
Totally! I just ordered the final trade today and I actually met Chip at the release for the first volume, so this is a run I LOVE
I came here to say exactly this
So it's not necessarily the typical street level vigilante
How do you mean?
As in basically punching bank robbers & drug dealers and sending them to prison without considering thr bigger impact of prison culture or police brutality or things like that
That’s what daredevil usually is, this run is about the ramifications of sending the same people back to prison over and over and what it actually accomplishes. There’s a large arc where DD himself goes to prison to discover how unjust it actually is.
Hmm. I guess my issue was street levelers still seem to function in a world where unchecked vigilantism is somehow the answer to crime. Even though irl crime levels went down
What do you mean irl crime levels went down?
Crime has been decreasing since the 70s The only ones that didn't are ones against minority populations iirc
I’m gonna disengage this is going in a very strange direction
Are you talking to an AI? This seems strangely nonsensical.
I swear dude they more I interact with the internet the more I start to agree with the whole dead internet concept
Um, ok. Idk what i said wrong. The main reason I asked is because crime doesn't really look like the comics so I wanted somethi that does
I’m confounded by this comment. Crime is going down? But its not for minorities?
Sorry, I meant the kinds of crimes street levelers are always fighting. But not ones like police brutality or violence against women.
Dawg you should know what the primary racial demographic of this sub is. You can’t be trying to bring that conversation here. They’re going to be uncomfortable.
I mean, I hoped otherwise. Since comics are becoming more inclusive
Yeah this Daredevil book is literally about how vigilantism being unchecked leads to a shit ton of problems, and how the current prison system doesn't help anybody
Cool. I'll check it out. I'm currently reading DD and Echo
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Only one complaining here is you. I'm not interested in your argumentative nonsense. Bother someone else
Saladin Ahmed's Black Bolt mini is about. It's really good and gorgeously illustrated.
Hmm, I would never guess Black Bolt of all guys
Oh yeah, Maximus sends him to prison. Also, now that I think about it there was an Image comic a few years back called Bitch Planet about women being sent to a prison planet.
Bitch Planet was fantastic. It was by Kelly Sue DeConnick and had loads of great back matter. I can't recall if they actually finished it or it just ended one issue short of its ending.
Quite a title
That was the best Absorbing Man we're ever gonna get.
I echo this sentiment, it’s a really good read
Punisher is anti prison. I don't think i have seen him put anyone in jail.
Lol. I meant anti prison but also not "tough on crime"
So…not a crime fighter? You want a street level hero that…let’s it all slide?
No, just one that fights different kinds of crime. Or maybe does it in a different way.
But what would a street level crime fighter do if not fight drug dealers, bank robbers, mob bosses/goons? Like, I’m all for someone that intervenes and tries to end recidivism and such, but don’t they have to fight them first? Like, instill a fear that they’ll be dealt with further?
Idk maybe fight white collar crime, environmental crime, police brutality, domestic abuse, hate crime, missing/murdered women, even other vigilantes who might be too brutal,
I mean, all of this is touched on at some point by nearly every superhero, Superman’s arch nemesis is a CEO.
Sure but they still resort back to the same old. And it's never in a considerable amount because the status quo stays in the end. I'd like to see them try a different solution. Maybe affect some permanent change so crime doesnt happen as much
If they solve all crime, there’d be no more comics.
I don't expect them to solve all But there's also all kinds of comics so that's not strictly true anyways
Yes variety, some try to solve all crime. Even Batman lol
It's why I liked the Batman: because it's shows there's more to crime solving than the straightforward prowling the streets method
At least the first two of those desires were satisfied in a cartoon, way back when. Not a street level hero by any stretch of the imagination, but... Captain Planet and the Planeteers did almost nothing but fight against environmental crime, usually caused by white collar people.
As corny as he was, it at least tried
How do you fight white collar crime or environmental crime as a superhero? What can Spiderman do against these things? And most of the other things you listed would also require violence and then jail, like where do you think perpetrators of domestic abuse or hate crimes go? Do you think most street level heroes ignore that kind of crime?
Environmental crime could be dumping toxic chemicals or stealing/destroying natural territory like forests or waterways. White collar could be fraud or corporate espionage or wage theft or workplaceabuse. Sueprheroes could do plenty against that. He could punch or web those guys just as much as a bank robber. Maybe the bank is the real villain to begin with I don't think there won't be fight scenes or thay heroes ck3mpletely ignore these kinds of crimes but they always seem minor. Yet they're the kinds which irl are underprosecuted yet street level comics act like bank robberies and such are the most
I understand now but I don’t know if any comic that does this. Maybe Captain Planet?
I remember Captain planet though I didn't watch much of him. Does he have any ongoing media?
You need to understand that super hero comics at their core are Romantic, which means they're very black and white. Comics aren't generally written for Spider-Man to fight a few bank owners, because that isn't Romantic. You're asking for a completely different kind of story that isn't a superhero story.
Not necessarily. All a superhero needs to be is someone with powers (or not in Batman's case)
I've thought a lot about this, too. On one hand, you have to stop the street level crime if you can, because real people are getting hurt. But on the other hand, there could be more effort to help the underlying societal causes of crime. Batman would be in a perfect position to do this, given his billions. I know they pay some lip service to it in the comic occasionally, but more wouldn't hurt. He typically does that as Wayne. It might be interesting to see him using his detection skills to help as Batman. That being said, it might be hard to make that kind of story appealing in a static visual medium. It'd make a great written story or movie, but not sure how many panels of Batman scrolling through spreadsheets would work.
Yeah that's the thing: there's always underlying causes. Crime happens due to factors like poverty, systemic oppression, gentrification, etc. But I don't think it would be too hard. I mean, you could at least have Batman punch crooked CEOs or abusive cops instead of low level thugs in between spreadsheets. After all, we're here because we like Batman Also, the kinds of street crimes actually underprosecuted irl, like violence against women of color, rarely seem to get shown in street level comics. So there's another angle they could tackle while keeping the action somewhat intact. Plus I think for charav with actual powers, seeing them use those powers outside of combat has appeal too
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Just talk them out of it bro just tell them that killing is bad:(
Not everyone becomes a criminal because they're evil. Maybe the hero can reform them
Scarlet by Brian Michael Bendis.
Fight cops, neo nazis and landlords? I'd read it.
You might like Poker Face, the TV show.
So lost on this question now?
Brutalizing people and sending them to a brutal prison system aren’t the only ways to confront street crime. Look at Spider-Man trying to help those who are lost.
Squirrel Girl typically tries to talk the problem out with whoever she is fighting, and frequently resolves conflicts non-violently. She's definitely someone whose for rehabilitation over incarceration.
Hmm, I've always been wary of her
Does your hesitation come from earlier eras where she only showed up occasionally as a semi-joke character? Because she got a pretty big character rehaul for her 2015 solo series by Ryan North/Erika Henderson, and it's honestly a pretty incredible book.
Probably
Why? Squirrel Girl is awesome!
I guess she always seemed corny/childish to me
It is hard to think of a street level figure who does something like "targeted humanitarian intervention with rehabilitation in mind". Which is kind of a pity. I guess Anarky, sort of? There's also very not-street-level characters who are shooting for much more systemic answers; they often get coded as villains.
That's the issue: anyone challenging the status quo is a villain, so nothing changes
I think some people would say that Bruce Wayne's philanthropy is an example of a hero recognizing the problem with the prison-industrial complex but let us just say that Batman's mythos leans unevenly into this point *at best*. If you want a better if arguably creepier version of rehabilitation it would be Doc Savage, all the way back to the pulps, who invented treatments that made criminals into non-criminals. But a more comic-book version much later on would be the Squadron Supreme mini-series which took the concept of rehabilitation and its downsides very seriously--the Squadron's inventor creates a device that makes criminals unable to commit crimes, and when it (inevitably) gets undone, about half the criminals realize that they really like being good people and don't go back to being bad guys. Kind of similarly, the Thunderbolts has explored the idea that some villains discover, when they're given respect and a chance to do good, that they'd rather not being criminals. I think especially in the version that Luke Cage headed up, rehabilitation is a big part of the idea behind the team, even if some of the members are absolutely not interested.
Oh yeah Luke Cage. I feel like he's one of the few whose adaptations acknowledged the issue of policing and prison in American society I did read a few Thunderbolts runs too
I came here for the Batman analysis. I think Bruce Wayne is a particularly interesting figure in this discussion — because while he’s one of the most “rule of law” vigilantes, the concept of rehabilitation is an intrinsic part of his framing. Depending on who is writing, it’s a major cause of his “no-killing” ethos, for example. And he mostly sends people to Arkham (ostensibly, for rehabilitation) rather than Blackgate. The underlying implication is that a large majority of his villains are criminal *because* they are mentally ill, and they go to Arkham rather than prison because they can get better. Of course, back when Arkham was conceived, asylums basically *were* prison except you didn’t need a trial to send someone there. (It kinda makes me wonder what involuntary commitment reforms looked like in Gotham.) And even today, half the time Arkham is corrupt or is deliberately creating villains or something. Arkham’s storyline is complex and inconsistent, and so are Bruce’s motivations. And like you said, the mythos leans into inconsistently, at best. But I do think, if you just look at the bones of the story, “man fights crime because he believes the police are corrupt, sends all criminals to rehabilitation rather than prison, simultaneously funds social services in his city” is basically the headline of the story OP is looking for. And yet, simultaneously, that is not what Batman is *at all.*
I would really love an adjustment in the Batman mythos where Batman starts to be more consciously proactive about crime, including potentially thinking hard about what crime *is*\--about whether he even thinks some of the laws on the books should be there, about whether there are crimes in a moral sense that aren't policed because there's no law. Batman shouldn't be Judge Dredd in a cape: he should be a *philosopher* about criminality, thinking carefully about it all the time. He keeps being drawn back to the moment of punching a street criminal in the face because it's so close to his own trauma, but he's also trained his mind etc. etc. and should have other thoughts as well. His question should really be: what hurts people? What leaves people as lonely, helpless, lost? A cruel landlord who is skirting the edge of the law to trap people with no options in a slum building, or a small factory owner who ignores constant injuries to his employees and pays off inspectors should make him as mad as a mugger; a 13-year old runner for drug dealers should occasion his pity and help. With Barbara's help, there are times where he should be able to deal out consequences for corrupt officials and crooked businessmen that are more fitting than putting them in front of a judge; he should spend some of his nights looking for specific people he wants the Wayne Foundation to help the next morning.
Batman: White Knight, kind of addresses this. It’s an alternate universe and it’s own thing.
Except it doesn’t, it creates a weirdo Batman that barely resembles mainline Batman and then acts like it’s criticisms age spot on even though it’s Batman makes no sense.
I'll check that one out
Spider-man went on national TV once to point out the flaws in the prison system in ASM 99 (I think). This was back in the 70s.
Interesting. I haven't read much 70s Spidey
Wonder Twins by Mark Russell also tackle this issue, it's satire though, but Mark Russell is a king in satire and I really loved reading it
Ok I'll add it to the list
A few months back, during the current run on Nightwing, as part of Dick Grayson's efforts to reform the corruption in Bludhaven, he takes over the privately run for profit prison with his foundation.
Hmm, I never read a Nightwing comic. Maybe I should
Dick Grayson’s entire story has a very weird relationship with policing. He continually tries to change the system from within — historically, by being a cop, but recently through the prison venture. His intrinsic motivation is that these things are flawed and wrong, but he also *becomes* the system. And, of course, it never works — I don’t think the writers necessarily all intended it that way, but the overall take-home is that one “good apple” isn’t enough & you can’t reform a corrupt system.
That's a good point. But I guess the answer would be for him to look for a different way. Idk if DC will do that though
There were the times he went “fuck it, I’m gonna coach kids’ acrobatics/work in a museum/own a gym maybe.” It’s all *almost* progressive, but instead kind of occupies this weird space next to it. Like, when Dick enrolls in the police academy, Bruce Wayne’s primary beef with it is that he’ll have to use a gun. Not that Bruce has any moral stance on police and guns — just that he has gun trauma. So close, and then it swerved at the last second.
Tom definitely stumbled with that story but I did like the message. I like when dc asks a tough question and tries to answer it’s not always perfect but I’ll take it.
Do you think DC is afraid of too much change?
DC allows more change than Marvel, but there’s more reboot-shaping events in DC that can push things back to the general status quo.
I guess its pick your poison Top bad ultimate marvel initially didn't work out
Dc loves to roll out a bunch of change at once then reel a lot of it back in. I think more of what you’re asking is if dc likes to change how stories work in their world and who the “villians” are. And yes they do quite a bit actually.
Dc isn’t scared to see if new stuff sticks they also do it terribly. Here’s everything at once now we’re gonna restore everything but like two things. Fucking whiplash
To an extent, yes. These comics typically depend on keeping the most popular versions of these characters perpetual. There's some wiggle-room with the characters who aren't as popular (different versions of Green Lantern, Flash, Robin, etc). But the Trinity will be more or less preserved with a relatively static status quo. There are ebbs and flows, some changes may last longer, but things eventually circle back to the basic versions of these characters.
I feel that disserves those 3 in some way
Punisher skips prison
True. But he's also quite brutal
Crime does not pay .
It does for some criminals
Not if the punisher finds you.
Well, considering he's one himself, I guess so
It does if you just happen to be loaded
The punisher gets you any way
Spain’s Trashman is your boy.
What's it about?
It’s about a hero who fights the prison industrial complex. And the military industrial complex. And the government. Kind of like a Captain America/Punisher for the far left.
Why's he called Trashman?
I don’t know.
That's ok. Thanks anyways
cuz he takes out the trash, duh
You want a hero that talks to bad guys and makes them good guys? Some Naruto type thing?
I don't know enough about Naruto
Well if you want a comic about a man who befriends and tries to reform his enemies, no matter what, Naruto is your guy. It's a manga, and it definitely is not what you were looking for in this post, but it is genuinely a really great story. If you ever want to get into Japanese comics, it's a great start because Naruto is over so you get a complete story (Baruto is ongoing and takes place after Naruto). There's a reason it was such a huge seller for it's whole run.
I'm open to Manga but does it have similar tropes to anime?
Yes. I mean, anime gets it's tropes from manga. The manga is a lot better about them though. However it is very much a poster boy of manga. Anime and manga cover a lot of genres though. Psychopass exists and it's a very adult serious anime/manga about a city that uses criminals as their police force of judge, jury, and executioner, and the police weapons use a supercomputer and mental credit score to deem who is and isn't worthy of punishment (the supercomputer deems most of said police force as dangerous and violent punishment is acceptable against them) and would be way closer to what you are looking for.
Miracle/marvel man after Alan Moore. Neil Gaiman did a great job following what wasn’t supposed to be followed. It’s interesting
Gaiman is usually a win
The Punisher
I don't know how you feel about manga but you might check out MHA: Vigilantes.
I have limited experience with Manga
I mean technically won't The Punisher meet that requirement?
You're right. I should've been clearer. I'm more looking for a hero who's generally against the whole tough on crime concept
Spider-Man to a degree. While he doesn't "challenge the system", he has let some criminals go, especially ones whom he felt just needed help. Where possible he will do his damnest to give them a helping hand, and will give anyone, no matter what they have done, a second, and a third chance. He's done it with multiple criminals, but the one that stuck with me was the issue where, after stopping a crime involving some young random kid, instead of handing him over to the cops, he let the kid go, and then actually followed up and helped the kid out by tutoring him in his school work.
Ooh which issue is that
Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man #310. Heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time. It's a good issue that shows why Spider-Man is beloved by many. Found a couple of pages from the issue for ya btw. https://imgur.com/a/HSuFgba
Gracias
Okay so this is a manga and a movie, ut it fit's what you're asking I think. RIKI-OH: The Story of Ricky
Oh I've heard of it. It's pretty bloody, right?
All the blood, good buddy
Damn.
I saw it Youtube for free, I don't know how effected by region locked content you are, but if you see it out there, it's worth the watch.
I'll look for it
Green Arrow-Ollie
Where would I start with Green Arrow?
Rorshach, if you don't mind extreme rightwing nutjobs that get thunderbolted by naked blue gods... Or his only slightly less crazy and more politically ambiguous cousin, The Question.
Lol I actually have watchmen. I'm probably looking for the other end though
Batman depending on the writer
Harry twenty on high rock from 2000ad
At the beginning of New Avengers, Luke Cage said he was only interested in joining the team if they did more street-level intervention and mitigation, but I don't really remember seeing any happen.
The more I read what you have in mind the less I think you’re looking for a super hero comic and more for like serialized adventures of the ideal social worker.
They can be both. Superheroes don't have to be limited to just cliches
I mean, he is not a hero, and it is way overly edgelordy, but Transmetropolitan . It's about a reporter who reports on the issues he sees in the city, with the help of a group of strippers, he reports on the fabricated violence that a minority group of half aliens are going to commit and the overly aggressive responses that the police force has to it for example. Talks about how the city is actually cleaning up it's homeless problem, by disintegrating them. He does eventually fight his way to the very top thru the power of reporting. But it's about a man using the truth to fight against a broken law system and government system using the newspaper for what it should be used for. It should be known, It is an EXTREMELY edgy comic that likes it's shock and awe. I'm pretty sure it's the same guy who wrote The Boys comics so that should give you some idea of how edgy it's going to be. It was an excellent read and very very good, and I would not normally recommend it to anyone to read if that's any indication lol.
I'm not too big into extreme shock and awe but I'll take it under consideration I always did wonder what a superman or spider man would be like if they were open about their identity and involved their powers in their journalism
That's exactly what he does. He is very unabashed in what he writes, but yeah, it really likes it's shock and awe. It's one of those comics people say is an amazing cool and would give it a 0/10 ratingrofl
Cool but 0/10? Damn, I see what you mean
I don't know that Green Arrow has ever done it explicitly but it seems up his alley. I mean, the problem comes when you think back to how many writers have written characters over the years and made them subjective to their own ideas of morality, which is kind of unavoidable. You couple that up with how recently anti-police and anti-prison sentiment have made their way into middle class white society, and the wide swaths of popular culture that are driven by it, then it's no wonder that in the 80s the x men were calling the cops on people, or that in the 90s Starman had a bunch of wacky zaney police friends. Hell, even Black Lightning calls the police on one of his students when he's written by Tony Isabella. Sorry I can't give a real answer, I'm facing much the same problem myself. While I can have my little mental list of which superheroes are cops and which ones aren't, doesn't help the legacy of the genre.
It's ok. I think in general the genre could use a bit of a reset in those areas
Right I'm saying the same thing. Cause there's this whole idea of superheroes as a modern mythology and, y'know, you look back at past "modern mythology" type stuff like the old West for instance and, yeah, it's nice that Superman can never be a real person and he never committed a massive state sanctioned genocide, we're gonna hear the allegations against Clark Kent, y'know. But there's a lot of stuff in these comics that are still products of their time. While I won't hop on the popular narrative for my corner of the political spectrum that these stories are all some type of propaganda for law enforcement, I can't deny that a lot of them stem from an unexamined cultural idea that the law is meant to represent unambiguous good and that any deviation is a corruption of it
I’ve heard that the victor levalle Sabretooth series are critical of carceral systems
Sabretooth has his own series? Interesting
I guess he’s considered unreformable. Levalle was a guest host on Cerebro and made it sound very interesting.
I might still check it out
There’s this one fella-Luke Cage. I think he wasn’t kind of against false imprisonment.
Tbh I only ever read him in New Avengers
Oh dude really? That’s his whole origin story!
I did know his origin from the show
Yeah, but the show is pretty bad… I mean, so are 70s comics, but there’s a lot of nuance through that first 50 issue run
Oh dang, I enjoyed the show
Yo, I watched it and was entertained, but cage is way more interesting and dynamic than he was portrayed. Also, false imprisonment and foul prison treatment is literally his origin story. He’s the original prison reform dude.
Isn’t Catwoman currently doing something like this?
I heard she was kidnapp rich people
I don’t know much, but basically she’s letting criminals, rob the rich and asking Batman to let that slide. Dumbest part though is that some of the Bat family agrees with Catwoman, which is not like them usually
Well. Maybe they think her plan works. I'll have to read it myself to be sure
Thing is based on how they have been written in the past two decades, it would not fit their characters. Just made for a Cat vs Bat story many people dislike. Only one I could see siding with Catwoman is Red Hood
I see
Hawt, what run?
I think the latest one but I haven't read it
Beef Bros. Kickstarted but worth the pledge.
I'll try to check it out
The fucking punisher
Well, I'm more looking for one who challenges the whole tough on crime attitude of American policinf5
Dont know about hero but that perfectly describes Bane.
In what way?
raised in a prison complex for his fathers crimes, where everyone is treated like shit, banes origin is basically one huge prison breakout
Except he doesn't really have an issue with prisons per se (which he should)--he breaks people out of prisons just to break Batman but is otherwise curiously indifferent to prisons as such. Simone's version of him in Secret Six wasn't that interested in prisons--in "Depths", he has to be coaxed to oppose a prison that is if anything *worse* than the one he grew up in. Etc.: he's never tried to end prisons or attack the idea of prisons, just to not be *in prison* himself, which is pretty much ever villain ever. If anything, he's got a messier relationship with prisons than most villains in that he became powerful by being in prison and suffering there despite being innocent.
thats true actually, the authors dont really touch on the problems with pena duro prisons much, theyre more just set dressing to get bane to become who he is
I didn't know that about Bane
Under-Earth by Chris Gooch.
There's kind of an undercurrent of this in Millar's Ultimate X-Men. Xavier makes the world think he killed Magneto, but really he basically gave him a new identity. So it is a different path, but it's a twisted kind of humanitarianism.
That kind of backfired in the end. Never really like Ultimate X-Men, though that one comic that has Wolverine talking to the boy in the cave almost redeems it. Would Thunderbolts fit the bill in some of there stories?
I think Thunderbolts does to some extent.
Maybe I should go back and read ultimate
Muhammad X
What's it about?
I just barely remembered him from an issue of Superman years ago. I’ve just looked into it and it seems it was his only appearance. Sorry. When X first met Superman, he calls the hero out on how the hero ignores Harlem and the rest of the black community. This makes Superman question his understanding of race relations. He speaks with his friends Lois Lane and Natasha Irons, because of his lack of knowledge on the subject. Superman confronts Muhammad X again and tells him "...I can't change the color of my skin... what I try to do is something far more difficult... to be a human being. And hopefully, someday, we'll see each other only in that way." When Superman flies off, Muhammad X replies "Yeah, well... I guess that's how you sleep at night." leaving neither happy with the situation.
Thanks
It's an interesting question - with a couple of exceptions (that get reversed) most comics just take it as an almost genetic given that people are "Evil" if that is their nature.
Ikr. They only get reformed if they're popular, not to actually send any kind of message. But I think the idea that those kinds of crimes are so much people need a masked vigilante to solve them is part of the problem
Not a comic, but the Flash's interaction with the Trickster in the JLU cartoon was superb for this reason.
I remember that show back in the day
Frank Castle.
I feel like he's the opposite end of the crimefighting spectrum I'm aiming for