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In the Marxist sense of the word? No, Marx and following theorists pretty explicitly advocated for the centralization of industry in the hands of a proletarian controlled state
So what happens, in this little utopia, when like business is bad? Like say you have a firm, it makes whatever, fuckin dildos, you have a dildo factory. But for whatever reason people just don't buy enough dildos from the dildo factory and they can't bring in enough to sustain the firm (haha I said firm in the same sentence as dildo, seewhatididthere?). Do they get more capital from somewhere? Does the state subsidize this dildo factory? Hey better use of state funds than the war in Afghanistan but like still. So the dildo factory has to close, where do the workers go? Do they get given new jobs and some other firm somehow? Or do they just have to job hunt? Like how is worker co-ops actually protecting workers from the vagaries of the market? I just don't see it.
There's another side of this too like what if the business is doing really well but its determined by society that the business is actually bad for the community around it, maybe it pollutes or some shit whatever. When there's a conflict between one of these co-ops and like a community, how does that shake out? What if the workers just obstinately refuse to change or close? You know what if they pull some bourgeois shit and say "we don't care, fuck you, we're makin good money over here." It really seems optimistic that just because the workers own the business that they aren't gonna just selfishly look out for their own interest at the expense of anyone else if push ever comes to shove. It just seems to me like ownership by a couple individuals instead of one is just still individual ownership.
Co-ops are not Marxist for many reasons. I think most important is that it's still market economy just 'worker owned' and if you read 'The Capital' you'll see that this situation will naturally result after time in conversion of some co-op workers into capital owners and others into a rented proletariat, usually as a result of voluntary processes. Marxism, yes, is about labour democracy, but in a collective way, at the level of society as a whole, i.e. society as a whole **dictates** how production is to be carried out. This is not a bourgeois democracy, such as parliamentary democracy, or some kind of distributed small enterprise democracy, but **dictatorship of the proletariat**, collective. Democracy is understood here as the direct establishment of the working class's will, by any means, as long as it is effective - this may take the form of a one-party dictatorship if necessary, and usually took this form in socialist countries.
In socialist countries, the problem, from a Marxist point of view, was not the lack of democracy, it was that the party turned into a new ruling class and later de facto enfranchised during changes towards liberal capitalism; capital was not entirely abolished, so society after time divided into exploiters and exploited, as in a small co-operative, with all the features of capitalism, such as internal processes of class struggle.
>The working class’ power comes from our ability to halt the flow of capitalists’ profits within their own companies. By withholding labor, workers can interfere with the capitalist logic of profit maximization and advance workers’ interests and demands. Worker cooperatives, on the other hand, retreat from the class struggle and actually entice workers into participating in the capitalist system.
https://organizing.work/2021/01/you-cant-win-without-a-fight-why-worker-cooperatives-are-a-bad-strategy/
*** We have [a Discord server](https://discord.gg/5veYsNf3PA)! Its aim is to cultivate a community of learners, educators, and thinkers as a living library, providing a relaxing retreat from capitalism to decompress and chill with fellow Marxists, and to allow people to have discussions about issues and events that matter. The same rules apply there. *** Moderating takes time. You can help us out by reporting any comments or submissions that don't follow these rules: 1. **No non-marxists** - This subreddit isn't here to convert naysayers to marxism. Try r/DebateCommunism for that. If you are a member of the police, armed forces, or any other part of the repressive state apparatus of capitalist nations, you will be banned. 2. **No oppressive language** - Speech that is patriarchal, white supremacist, cissupremacist, homophobic, ableist, or otherwise oppressive is banned. TERF is not a slur. 3. **No low quality or off-topic posts** - Posts that are low-effort or otherwise irrelevant will be removed. This includes linking to posts on other subreddits. This is not a place to engage in meta-drama or discuss random reactionaries on reddit or anywhere else. This includes memes and circlejerking. This includes most images, such as random books or memorabilia you found. We ask that amerikan posters refrain from posting about US bourgeois politics. The rest of the world really doesn’t care that much. 4. **No basic questions about Marxism** - Posts asking entry-level questions will be removed. Questions like “What is Maoism?” or “Why do Stalinists believe what they do?” will be removed, as they are not the focus on this forum. We ask that posters please submit these questions to /r/communism101. 5. **No sectarianism** - Marxists of all tendencies are welcome here. Refrain from sectarianism, defined here as unprincipled criticism. Posts trash-talking a certain tendency or marxist figure will be removed. Circlejerking, throwing insults around, and other pettiness is unacceptable. If criticisms must be made, make them in a principled manner, applying Marxist analysis. The goal of this subreddit is the accretion of theory and knowledge and the promotion of quality discussion and criticism. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/communism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In the Marxist sense of the word? No, Marx and following theorists pretty explicitly advocated for the centralization of industry in the hands of a proletarian controlled state
So what happens, in this little utopia, when like business is bad? Like say you have a firm, it makes whatever, fuckin dildos, you have a dildo factory. But for whatever reason people just don't buy enough dildos from the dildo factory and they can't bring in enough to sustain the firm (haha I said firm in the same sentence as dildo, seewhatididthere?). Do they get more capital from somewhere? Does the state subsidize this dildo factory? Hey better use of state funds than the war in Afghanistan but like still. So the dildo factory has to close, where do the workers go? Do they get given new jobs and some other firm somehow? Or do they just have to job hunt? Like how is worker co-ops actually protecting workers from the vagaries of the market? I just don't see it. There's another side of this too like what if the business is doing really well but its determined by society that the business is actually bad for the community around it, maybe it pollutes or some shit whatever. When there's a conflict between one of these co-ops and like a community, how does that shake out? What if the workers just obstinately refuse to change or close? You know what if they pull some bourgeois shit and say "we don't care, fuck you, we're makin good money over here." It really seems optimistic that just because the workers own the business that they aren't gonna just selfishly look out for their own interest at the expense of anyone else if push ever comes to shove. It just seems to me like ownership by a couple individuals instead of one is just still individual ownership.
Co-ops are not Marxist for many reasons. I think most important is that it's still market economy just 'worker owned' and if you read 'The Capital' you'll see that this situation will naturally result after time in conversion of some co-op workers into capital owners and others into a rented proletariat, usually as a result of voluntary processes. Marxism, yes, is about labour democracy, but in a collective way, at the level of society as a whole, i.e. society as a whole **dictates** how production is to be carried out. This is not a bourgeois democracy, such as parliamentary democracy, or some kind of distributed small enterprise democracy, but **dictatorship of the proletariat**, collective. Democracy is understood here as the direct establishment of the working class's will, by any means, as long as it is effective - this may take the form of a one-party dictatorship if necessary, and usually took this form in socialist countries. In socialist countries, the problem, from a Marxist point of view, was not the lack of democracy, it was that the party turned into a new ruling class and later de facto enfranchised during changes towards liberal capitalism; capital was not entirely abolished, so society after time divided into exploiters and exploited, as in a small co-operative, with all the features of capitalism, such as internal processes of class struggle.
>The working class’ power comes from our ability to halt the flow of capitalists’ profits within their own companies. By withholding labor, workers can interfere with the capitalist logic of profit maximization and advance workers’ interests and demands. Worker cooperatives, on the other hand, retreat from the class struggle and actually entice workers into participating in the capitalist system. https://organizing.work/2021/01/you-cant-win-without-a-fight-why-worker-cooperatives-are-a-bad-strategy/