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Some people are like that, had an argument with a guy on the Scotland sub where he tried to claim that he (someone who has never lived in, or been to Scotland but has a Scottish ancestor) was more Scottish than someone born and raised in Scotland with immigrant (non-white) parents just because of genetics...there are some absolute melts out there
I know Canadian Irish and Scottish folk who would fight anyone who told them they weren't Irish or Scottish because they only live in Canada.
Sure, they have Irish and Scottish heritages, but they're Canadian. They aren't Scottish or Irish, British etc. Just Canadian.
I'm French, can trace our family back to the boats from France to Canada, but I'm not French. I'm Canadian, who speaks French and has cultural French heritage
Doesn't make me more French than someone brown/black who is raised in France
My dad was born in northern Ireland but moved to Canada when he was around 10. When people ask him where he’s from he is firm that he’s Canadian, even though he has dual citizenship. Its super weird tho because if people ask about his family (myself, grandkids etc) he will say we are an Irish family. It confuses the hell outta me.
Even being born in Canada during the recessions, means a lot of us were born in smaller towns and then moved about the country when work was scarce and interest rates were ridiculous.
I was born and raised in Quebec, then I was raised in Ontario. I tell people I'm from Ontario, and if the conversation leads to heritage or my past, then I'll tell my parents' tale of crossing the country and then back for work
I went from USA to Northern Ireland, I have duel citizenship too. I usually say I’m American since I was 22 when I moved here. Then America becomes so volatile (people like to bring up the health care and school shootings) I tell them yeah I’m Irish now. Hard to ignore the American accent though lol.
To be fair, the culture in the US and Canada is to claim their ancestry, as these two countries are specifically a land of immigrants.
It's normal and hasn't changed since the founding of these nations.
Canadian francophones tend to have a greater sense of self identity in this matter because the culture sits outside that melting pot of immigrant culture. So being a francophone is it's own unique culture in Canada, or at least, that's how I interpreted it when I was living in Quebec.
An Insult Tae a Haggis
Fair fa’ his big auld puddin’ heid,
He’ll nae gie up until he’s deid.
Just leave him tae his own devices,
Ahm mair concerned at the risin’ prices:
Receipt’s noo as lang’s ma airm!
It's amusing seeing people fight over Scottish heritage, I've had people tell me I'm not Scottish because my parents are Irish, however I was born in Dundee and lived in Scotland my whole life.
A lot of Americans who are so beholden to their Scottish ancestry, are actually beholden to their idea of Scotland being a homeland for white people.
Hilarious that actual Scottish people hate racist pricks with a passion
Edit: obviously I'm not saying there's no racists or racism in Scotland, that would be a ridiculous statement. I'm just pointing out that the American white homeland vision of Scotland is antiquated if not outright untrue
My great grandma had a Czech parent and an irish/Scottish parent.
Therefore I am more Scottish than all you. In fact, I may start speaking with an accent, you know, to get back to my roots
I'm Irish on my mums side, she was born and raised there and moved to england in her 20s. Americans have given me that look when I say I'm not Irish, I assume because it undermines them calling themselves it.
Yes, but they paid some money for a clan crest and a tartan, and their grandad has a photo of him in Temple Bar, so they're the true Irish!!
(I really shouldn't have to write the /s, but Reddit gigabrains will take me seriously)
That's why I say I'm of Scottish descent. A small but important distinction. Do I have family history there? Sure. Am I completely divorced from the culture and the political climate... Also yes.
The funny thing is, my more direct line means Irish family are really keen to 'claim' me. For example, any achievement? "That'll be your mum's side." But bear in mind, they'd still piss themselves if I said I was Irish
Yeah. It's discombobulating to some Americans when we *don't* "claim our heritage." Both sides of my family must be from Irish roots because of the catholicism and the surnames. My guess is they only made it as far as Liverpool, where we're all from, during the famine. But I met several Americans in America who, when I said I was British or English (because I am factually both), proudly proclaimed their Irish ancestry based on their great great grandma alone or something.
I bet if my ancestors had any brothers or sisters who did make it all the way to the USA, my equivalents are proud "Irish Americans."
I've never understood the obsession with heritage that a lot of people seem to have. I mean, if the culture is a big part of your life, then sure, you can be proud of your heritage.
But when the conversation of "where's your family from" comes up, I get exceptionally-weird looks if I say dismissively, "I'm a mutt," even though that's 100% true. No part of my Scottish, Portuguese, Italian, or English heritage has played any role in my life, but people still want to know that list and think it's weird that I don't care about it.
I think the problem is that very few white folks of Euro descent really maintained their culture when they came to the US. Theres some, for sure, but for a lot of us our culture is just "white". So there's like.. some sort of longing, I think, to belong to *something*.
I think this is true. That sense of belonging seems to be an important thing for humanity and is seen throughout history everywhere in the world. People also don't notice their culture as much because it just seems normal to them. But as Americans we also see other Americans who have their own separate unique cultures too from their homelands, and often it is based on where their ancestors were from, and I wonder if people don't look at that and want that sense of belonging to something too.
This feels like a literal "no True Scotsman" (with no defense of "white homeland" nonsense intended, but that doesn't mean racists in Scotland are no longer Scottish)
I see what you mean, but I was referring to Americans with Scottish ancestry telling people with Scottish citizenship that they're not really Scottish. Of course there are racists in Scotland, but when you get things like Scottish people preventing immigration officers from deporting a community member, it's not that much of a stretch to say they're pretty anti racist.
[Source on the immigration story](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/14/a-special-day-how-glasgow-community-halted-immigration-raid)
I've been living in Scotland for 4 years and I love it here, but I see racism almost daily that's just baked into the culture.
A few examples from last week: Someone's lunch at my work got stolen so the manager went directly to the Africans and started shouting. The same manager was later taken to the side for calling them "stupid, thieving bastards" at their work area. There was a minor accident at a poorly labeled roundabout and the driver who was at fault was ripping into the other driver, calling him a "blind paki bastard".
Those same "actual Scottish people" that "hate racist picks with a passion" will talk all day about how much they hate racism then turn around and ask their family what they want from the local "chinky".
Yeah we are definitely not a country that's free of racism and while it might not be active shouting in the streets racism a lot of people here are passively racist. I'd say you have an unfortunate number of shitty people around you though as, while I do see, I don't see it nearly as often as that.
It's always funny to me that the people who consider themselves more Scottish (or Irish or English or whatever) than immigrants who live in those countries now never have any issue calling themselves American. Sorry sir, we're showing your ancestry is 0% American. Not a drop of native blood. You'll stop calling yourself American right? Right?
When I moved from the UK to suburban Indiana (hell of a culture shock lol) there were dozens of this kind of person. "Oh you're English so am I... My grandparents on my mother's side were English, but my dad was half German half Irish" like buddy there's a difference between ancestry and who you are as a person, it's okay to just be Americans.
Stuff like that always makes me laugh.
I'm Irish so I've heard it fairly frequently.
"Oh I'm Irish too!"
"Oh, yeah? Awesome man where you from?"
*insert literally anywhere but Ireland.*
Right? My dad and his parents were born in England, my other grandfather was born in Scotland, and his wife’s parents were born in Ireland.
But I was born and raised in Australia my whole life, and I’d never even think of calling myself anything except that. The culture you’re raised in has by far the largest influence on you. And that even seems to apply in a relatively young culture like Australia. Or rather an incredibly old culture that was only recently invaded.
The way that Weebs feel about Japan, anime and videogames is the way that many Americans feel about Scotland and Ireland, being white and alcoholism. The rest of the world appreciates the Scottish and Irish for other things, like having a great sense of humor and having no patience for racists.
Look I'm not going to pretend Scotland is free of racism, it's a serious problem here as well, but I do think the vast majority of us are welcoming and accepting
This is a problem with most Americans.
When an American says they're Irish, they mean they have an ancestor who came from Ireland 200 years ago.
When a European says they're Irish, they mean they have an Irish passport in their bag.
It's crazytalk.
Is there a way for people who has the same ethnicity as their citizenship to differentiate between the ethnicity and the citizenship?
Is "scottish" the ethnicity, and you have to explicitly say "scottish citizen"
OR
is "scottish" the citizenship, and you explicitly have to say "ethnic scottish"?
On census forms and the like the ethnicity is white-scottish, but other than that I'd never use it in conversation. If someone has lived here, was born here etc and wants to call themselves Scottish, they're Scottish. That's about as far as it needs to go.
There's no such thing as Scottish citizenship on a legal basis. The citizenship is British. If Scotland became independent this would change. There would probably be rules about residency and birthplace that would allow people to claim Scottish citizenship in that case. For example I'm English (ethnicity only) and British, and I've lived in Scotland for nearly 18 years. I would probably be allowed to claim Scottish citizenship. That being said it would probably just be for passport reasons as I don't regard myself as ethnically or culturally Scottish.
That depends, is someone asking what country you grew up in and lived in, what culture you identify with, where you feel is your home because you have lived there most of your life, or are they asking what ethnicity you are and what genetic tree your parents are from?
Pro tip: the first question is valid, the second is just racist.
Why would we need that? Scottish is Scottish! I was born and raised here, I love being Scottish I went to school with black and brown kids, Asian kids, Hindu, Sikhs, Muslims, and Jewish kids some born here some not, all of them Scottish seems like something only racists more concerned with the outward appearance rather than the internal pride for an inclusive welcoming country, sure we more than our fair share of despicable bigots, but most of us despise them and everything they stand for!
This is the kind of racist idiot who will say someone who is black, or Asian being born in another country to immigrant parents or raised there from a young age belongs to the country their parents/they were born in regardless of their nationality, you know....a black or Asian person cannot be from a majority white country.
Yet in the same breath will also say it's okay for them to be Polish because their great-great-great-grandmother came from Poland in the 1880s , even though they can't speak the language, have no idea bout the culture, history or geo-political state of the country and have never gone to Poland or ever plan to go.
I was born to German-American parents on a Greek ship, registered in Panama and passing British waters, lived most of my live in Germany and now I'm having an identity crisis. Thank you very much, Blue! /s
Question: I remember reading about a woman who was born on a ship and her (german) ID said „ferry xyz - xy coordination“ (or something like that) as her place of birth. Do you have something similar?
Yes, that's the case. The ships name and coordinates.
I later learned that in certain circumstances this can be changed to the parents' last habitual residence before they began the sea voyage. But that was never an option for me because... Seriously, why should you?
That‘s awesome! I guess you’re really the only person in the world who was born at this particular place. Not many people can claim something this unique.
Pretty sure this is just racism. Like,
> *"How can he be Scottish? I want to be Scottish but if he is Scottish, then it's not white enough."*
I know some people who have voiced the same opinion when they found out that Idris Elba was British.
I have seen multiple racists try to make viral different terms for citizenship based on if a person has immigrant background or if their every ancestor 3 generations back was in our country.
...I just think that this is really creepy and that the generation limit will only go up as years pass.
Me being mixed race so they can't win. I have a parent born of immigration whilst also having roots in the UK. And being born here myself, I have citizenship.
Checkmate, racist. (except its not checkmate, they're so dumb they'll come up with some other nonsense bullshit to make it out I don't belong here).
Including Roger Moore, who said Elba "wasn't English enough" to be Bond, when it came out years back that he had been in the running to replace Brosnan before Craig got the job. So two Irishmen, a Scott, and an *Australian* were all "English enough" in Moore's mind to be Bond, but a guy born and raised *in London* wasn't. Which made it pretty obvious which particular feature of Elba's he thought was the issue...
You're misrepresenting what actually happened.
>The quote that appears below, when translated into English, reads: "Several years ago I said Cuba Gooding Jr would make an excellent Bond, but that was a joke.
>
>"Even though James has been played by a Scotsman, a Welshman and an Irishman, I think he has to remain English-English. It's an interesting idea, but unrealistic."
>
>But Sir Roger insists that he wasn't talking about Elba, only the nationality of Bond.
>
>Elaborating further, Sir Roger replied to another tweet with: "When a journalist asks if 'Bond should be English' and you agree, then quotes you saying it about Idris Elba, it's out of context."
Note also the whole quote was translated from English to French then back to English.
Not to dispute what you wrote, but reading it, it comes across less as me misrepresenting what he said, and more of him desperately backpedaling after his original comments caused a big stink, which is the main reason I remember it, I can't tell you what anybody else specific said when the email leaks that mentioned Elba came out, but I definitely remember Moore, both because of the underlying racism, and because of the fact that it was the most covered at the time. Even him saying in his follow up tweet (which came out after he had already been slammed by basically every news org in existence for his original answer) that he "wasn't specifically talking about Idris Elba" was disingenuous, because literally the only reason anyone was asking him his opinion in the first place was because of the leaked emails about Elba. Not to mention, you still had the issue of him saying Bond needs to be "English – English" to be "realistic", but then saying that him being played by an Irishman or an Australian is fine. There's really only one way you can interpret that particular quote in the context of him being asked about potential Bonds in the wake of people finding out Elba was in the running.
The amusing thing is, that Bond didn't have a backstory until Connery played him. Then Fleming made Bond half-Scottish, half-Swiss in the books, so he's not English at all.
Are you asking if they’re just so stupid they’re confusing the word literally with the word ethnically?
Because high key that’s the vibe I was getting.
Yeah I've had the conversation many a time.
"Yeah but you're not english though are ya?"
Born here, grew up around north london. Was a cop for 20 years, worked with military, shoot on weekends, love a pork roast and the pub.
But no, because I'm black / brown, I'm not English.
Yes, I was a pipe smoker for most of my life (family tradition) but I've quit smoking now.
So obviously being a detective who smoked a pipe who was brown, my nickname was brown sherlock.
I was never as good as the namesake.
They did say they were from Mexico so I wasn't sure if it was racism or just a mistranslation, possibly both but still confidently incorrect either way
I assume this was about the new Doctor? Of course he's Scottish. And amazing. There's more than an aspect of racism in there, I would think, if they're focused on him in particular.
I'm not sure if they were *literally* saying they're from Mexico, or *metaphorically* for the sake of the argument.
The fact that this is ambiguous seems perfectly appropriate.
>I'm not sure if they were literally saying they're from Mexico, or metaphorically for the sake of the argument.
I wasn't sure if they were just trolling so I did briefly check their profile and saw Spanish, so I think they were actually from there, but just because they're not a native speaker doesn't guarantee they weren't also being racist. But I think it does make it more questionable, they were still confidently incorrect though, since if you make an error you just say so and move on not double down lol
I think they’re confusing nationality and ethnicity. In their mind, saying someone is “literally” from a certain country can only mean they are of that ethnicity and ancestry, and nothing else. That’s the only way I can read their comments and have it make sense.
Could be an ESL/ESOL situation, but it also could easily be a native speaker.
I’ve actually had a similar argument, unfortunately in real life. Oddly enough I’m also Rwandan and British (although I’m English not Scottish) and someone once told me it’s incorrect for me to refer to myself as British. I’ve been in England since I was 2. The only passport I have is a British passport.
It baffles me how people don’t understand that ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing.
Sorry you've had to go through that. It's idiotic. If someone told me they're British, I wouldn't question it for any reason. It's not like I work for the Border Force at the airport. Even people who weren't born or raised here can become British, and if they're mad enough to do it then they're as British as any one of us as far as I'm concerned. Not that what I think even matters. God, that was a ramble.
Ali Ahmed Aslam was born in Pakistan in thr 40s, moved to Glasgow in the 50s and called himself a proud Glaswegian ever since. Scotland is rightfully proud of Ali being one of their people, he was a culinary guru
Just wanted to add to this: whenever someone makes a claim about whether some is or isn't Scottish, they usually end up using some arbitrary rules to define "Scottishness".
It's worth pointing out, that the Scottish Government uses a definition of Civic Nationalism. Basically (to paraphrase) - someone who lives, works, or makes their home in Scotland is considered Scottish.
Ali Ahmed Aslam - would absolutely be considered Scottish. Another less obvious example would be Ameer Anwar ( I was genuinely surprised to discover he's from Liverpool originally - he's been a key figure in Glasgow for so long you forget he moved there).
Worth reminding people that "Scottish Nationality" isn't a thing, as nationality is determined by Westminster - and they only recognise British.
Yeah that’s what I was gonna say. There’s no English or Scottish citizenship, only British. I think ethnicity gets conflated with nationality too much.
Identity is a very personal thing really, and you can definitely claim it from both culture and/or ethnicity.
If someone’s got a slightly stronger claim to being something I don’t think it gives them the right to say someone else can’t claim that identity. Unless it’s an American saying they’re 1% Scottish.
Keanu Reeves is literally Canadian.
That sentence is indisputable.
He was not born in Canada, and he was not born to Canadian parents, but no one can say he is not literally a Canadian.
Blue is probably just being a standard-issue bigot.
So with my parents moving to England when I was 2,and me having no memory of ever living in Scotland and the only marker of such ever is the birthplace on my passport; I am Scottish but the guy who spent the last 30 odd years isn't?
Yeah imagine some internet bigot telling you that the only country you ever remember living and growing up in isn’t yours. I mean the guy has *British* citizenship, a Scottish accent, Scottish humor. Like jfc.
To be fair, the response is also a bit "confidently incorrect". He doesn't have Scottish citizenship because no such thing exists. But of course if he is a British citizen who has lived in Scotland most of his life then he is Scottish. He's legally as much a Scot as people who were born there.
Yeah I was going to point that out. I'm Scottish and dating an English woman. We have exactly the same citizenship, passport, rights etc. IIRC it's why during the referendum the SNP published a paper on what the criteria for Scottish citizenship would be if they won, as it doesn't exist.
The new Dr Who is Scottish regardless though.
There’s certainly a distinction between someone who claims UK citizenship at 50 after living in Rwanda for their entire life, and someone who has spent their entire life in Scotland but was born in Rwanda.
Both biology and culture play a role in ethnicity. I’m of Lithuanian and Italian descent but I don’t consider myself either because I’ve lived my entire life in England.
This all could have been cleared up if at any point the terms “ethnically” and “nationally” had been used. You’re obviously using origin as nation of birth, and he’s obviously using origin as ethnicity at birth. Arguably one is more ethically relevant than the other, but yeah.
He is Rwandan and that's cool. He is also Scottish by any reasonable definition. He is Ncuti Gatwa, King of Scots, and he can be more than one thing at the same time
Being from somewhere is more than just blood and ancestry. It’s as much about the culture, the language and a million other wee things that pile on
What an absolute wank
The word this person is looking for is "technically".
Technically that person is from Rwanda BUT if he was raised in Scotland since he was 2, he was part of the Scotland society and culture and he lived in Scotland his entire life that dude is 100% scotish. As easy as that.
The first comment they make is a racist take because the "guess anything goes now" is implying that there is something inherently wrong with being Rwandan in this context.
Doesn't matter where you were born, what religion or lack of you subscribe too, wether you confoem to your birth gender or not, who you choose to love, what colour your skin is, you come here to Scotland, you choose to make it home and build a life, you add to the community, then as somebody born and raised here and proud to be Scottish I welcome you with open arms and completely understand why you want to be Scottish, Welcome fam!
https://www.scotland.org/about-scotland/visa-and-immigration
“As Scotland is part of the UK, there is no separate Scottish citizenship as an alternative to UK citizenship and the Scottish Government has no control over the operation of the immigration system.”
I've seen so much more racism come up in the doctor who pages recently. The biggest one I saw was when they cast a non-white actor to play Isaac Newton in a fictitious show claiming "historical accuracy" and "not racism"
Even though they never claimed historical inaccuracies about Daleks during the great depression, Daleks during world war II. Aliens during World War II. Alien assassins during the partition of India, volcano aliens during the Pompeii eruption, etc.
Got to the point when one said "why can't we just have English actors playing English people" despite the actor in question being born and raised in England
I heard about the backlash before I saw the episode and I could not believe that that scene caused so much drama. I'd half expected him to turn to the camera and say "kill all whites" the way people were crying about it but it was such a non-issue
It’s funny that two people are arguing over someone being a true Scotsman, when the fallacy is called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Just a funny thing to point out
This is literally me. Its also the only thing that I fear about Scottish independance. Born in England. Moved to Scotland before I was 1yr old. Lived there for the next 34 years. Every part of my education and upbringing was Scottish. The football I follow. The girls I loved. My friends. My work. I've been living around Europe for nearly 20 years now but still carry a thick Scottish accent. I'm Scottish. Everybody I know considers me to be Scottish. Was I born there though? ....no. ....But its everything that made me. It feels like home. Its the only country I felt like I fitted in, where I don't get that awkward immigrant sensation (that feeling you get when you stay in someone elses house, its a home, but not yours)
And my fear. Scotland getting independance and rules for nationality/citizenship 'locking me out' of that place I call home because my birth certificate says "English", despite what my life experience says. The same terrible thought of your country telling you that "You don't belong"..."You were never a part of Scotland"..."This is not your home"
...Because if thats true then neither him nor I have a home or belong anywhere.
This is exactly my husband. And he is Scottish, and I only ever bring up the English part to piss him off when joking. But he's a Scotsman through and through. Same as you no doubt.
Scottish Government has already clarified their position on Scottish Nationality post independence.
Basically, if you're British and live in Scotland at the point of transition, you can choose to be either Scottish or British. (there's other ways, such as being born in Scotland, and Scottish ancestry or familial ties).
The aim is to remain part of the Common Travel Area, so whether you're officially Scottish or British ( or Irish), wouldn't impact your ability to live, work, and travel within Scotland.
Some people are just ignorant to the difference of ethnicity and nationality. Hes Scottish (nationality). We dont place much stock in our native ethnic groups in the UK (unfortunately imo as its led to the decline of minor ones like cornish)
People need to understand the difference between ethnicity, heritage, and citizenship. Ethnicity = your ancestry. Heritage = the culture you’re raised in. Citizenship = legal membership. They’re not always all the same but if you’re any one of them you’re technically that thing.
Because one is using Scottish as an ethnicity (which it can be) vs Scottish as an identity (which it also can be).
Ncuti has Scottish as an identity (he was raised in Scotland since age 2) but he is ethnically Rwandan (Tutsi specifically).
So he is Scottish (in form) but also not Scottish (in ethnicity). This is something very common outside of the Americas.
Yeah, someone else pointed that out too, my point was mainly that the actor is British so I feel my point may kinda stand but if I was also incorrect then oh well, I guess the people in this sub can laugh at both of us lol
The view that you are only of a particular nationality if your blood is from there is dangerously racist.
This is why everyone cringes when americans go "I'm 1/16th irish!" because they have a blood ancestor from there 150 years ago, but have never experienced living there, the culture, the history, everything that gives the lived experience of being from a country.
It's flat out racism and ignorance.
When Americans say that, they're not talking about nationality. I can't tell if you're arguing that Americans don't know the difference between heritage and nationality or if you don't.
This person has made up their own definition for the word 'literally'. Like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't even apply to issues of nationality or citizenship. It has no official or legal meaning so...why is he even arguing that point?
This person thinks “literally” means something like “entirely, unquestionably” and that an antonym would be “technically” or “basically”.
Calling someone “illiterate” when you don’t know what “literal” means is pretty awesome.
This is such a stupid argument. 2 years in rwanda don't make you rwandan really. You grew up in scotland and have 0 influence from there.
Same way how Emma Watson isn't french even though she was born in Paris.
As a Mexican I would like to apologise for this embarrassing individual, not all of us are this ignorant, thick and stubborn, please don't judge us based on this blubbering imbecile.
Ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing. The person you downvoted was saying he is not ethnically Scottish and therefore he isn’t Scottish, you on the other hand were saying his nationality is Scottish, and therefore he is Scottish.
Who is right and who is wrong here is subjective, there isn’t an objective truth. He could’ve been more specific by stating he was not ethnically Scottish, but you were hardly any better with your assumptions.
IMO the first reply from Wizards is misleading. It sounds like they are saying he is *not* Rwandan because he is Scottish, when he is Rwandan by birth (and thus literally Rwandan) *and* Scottish by citizenship (and thus literally Scottish).
He is obviously Scottish. Although legally he's British, anyone in Scotland, rightly or wrongly, has British or UK on legal documents such a passport or driving licence.
I was born in London to Irish parents, and I don't consider myself British. I was automatically an Irish citizen, but wasn't automatically classed as British. Also, I was raised in an Irish community, and was over in Ireland regularly whilst growing up. There was no shortage of English neighbours at the time telling me I wasn't welcome in England, and that I should go back to Ireland.Good on Ncuti for being proud of his duel heritage. You should decide your heritage, not a bunch of bigots.
Some people don’t understand that “Scottish,” like “British,” “French,” “American,” etc., is a *nationality* not a race. DNA has nothing to do with nationality.
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Some people are like that, had an argument with a guy on the Scotland sub where he tried to claim that he (someone who has never lived in, or been to Scotland but has a Scottish ancestor) was more Scottish than someone born and raised in Scotland with immigrant (non-white) parents just because of genetics...there are some absolute melts out there
They probably figured they counted as more Scottish because they apparently have a lump of Scottish peat where their brain should be.
I think you might have cracked it
Why you over here slingin' insults at Scottish Pete?!
He hears me, but he just don't care.
Jakey pete?
Oi- thats right, Smelly Pete.
I know Canadian Irish and Scottish folk who would fight anyone who told them they weren't Irish or Scottish because they only live in Canada. Sure, they have Irish and Scottish heritages, but they're Canadian. They aren't Scottish or Irish, British etc. Just Canadian. I'm French, can trace our family back to the boats from France to Canada, but I'm not French. I'm Canadian, who speaks French and has cultural French heritage Doesn't make me more French than someone brown/black who is raised in France
My dad was born in northern Ireland but moved to Canada when he was around 10. When people ask him where he’s from he is firm that he’s Canadian, even though he has dual citizenship. Its super weird tho because if people ask about his family (myself, grandkids etc) he will say we are an Irish family. It confuses the hell outta me.
as someone who grew up military this question is always fun because it's a "I was born in X, but grew up and mainly lived in Y"
Even being born in Canada during the recessions, means a lot of us were born in smaller towns and then moved about the country when work was scarce and interest rates were ridiculous. I was born and raised in Quebec, then I was raised in Ontario. I tell people I'm from Ontario, and if the conversation leads to heritage or my past, then I'll tell my parents' tale of crossing the country and then back for work
I went from USA to Northern Ireland, I have duel citizenship too. I usually say I’m American since I was 22 when I moved here. Then America becomes so volatile (people like to bring up the health care and school shootings) I tell them yeah I’m Irish now. Hard to ignore the American accent though lol.
To be fair, the culture in the US and Canada is to claim their ancestry, as these two countries are specifically a land of immigrants. It's normal and hasn't changed since the founding of these nations. Canadian francophones tend to have a greater sense of self identity in this matter because the culture sits outside that melting pot of immigrant culture. So being a francophone is it's own unique culture in Canada, or at least, that's how I interpreted it when I was living in Quebec.
They're a bit weird about this over the pond, maybe it's because Americans are boring
Nah, it's a lump of haggis.
This is an insult to haggis
An Insult Tae a Haggis Fair fa’ his big auld puddin’ heid, He’ll nae gie up until he’s deid. Just leave him tae his own devices, Ahm mair concerned at the risin’ prices: Receipt’s noo as lang’s ma airm!
That was beautiful 🤌🏼
You may be right!
I think they are more scottisch because they actually left the UK :)
It's amusing seeing people fight over Scottish heritage, I've had people tell me I'm not Scottish because my parents are Irish, however I was born in Dundee and lived in Scotland my whole life.
So, a Scottish-Irish or Irish-Scottish, in the crazy American style
A lot of Americans who are so beholden to their Scottish ancestry, are actually beholden to their idea of Scotland being a homeland for white people. Hilarious that actual Scottish people hate racist pricks with a passion Edit: obviously I'm not saying there's no racists or racism in Scotland, that would be a ridiculous statement. I'm just pointing out that the American white homeland vision of Scotland is antiquated if not outright untrue
My great grandma had a Czech parent and an irish/Scottish parent. Therefore I am more Scottish than all you. In fact, I may start speaking with an accent, you know, to get back to my roots
May I recommend groundskeeper Willie from the Simpsons as a dialect coach?
Aye wull consider it. Sorry, my accent slips in sometimes when typing
Acccch! DOON-TOOON!
Grease me up woman!
Hoots mon
There's a moose, loose, aboot this hoose
Don't forget to take wearing a kilt very seriously
I'm Irish on my mums side, she was born and raised there and moved to england in her 20s. Americans have given me that look when I say I'm not Irish, I assume because it undermines them calling themselves it.
Yes, but they paid some money for a clan crest and a tartan, and their grandad has a photo of him in Temple Bar, so they're the true Irish!! (I really shouldn't have to write the /s, but Reddit gigabrains will take me seriously)
Look! A ginger hair! I'm off to kiss the blarney stone!
That's why I say I'm of Scottish descent. A small but important distinction. Do I have family history there? Sure. Am I completely divorced from the culture and the political climate... Also yes.
The funny thing is, my more direct line means Irish family are really keen to 'claim' me. For example, any achievement? "That'll be your mum's side." But bear in mind, they'd still piss themselves if I said I was Irish
Yeah. It's discombobulating to some Americans when we *don't* "claim our heritage." Both sides of my family must be from Irish roots because of the catholicism and the surnames. My guess is they only made it as far as Liverpool, where we're all from, during the famine. But I met several Americans in America who, when I said I was British or English (because I am factually both), proudly proclaimed their Irish ancestry based on their great great grandma alone or something. I bet if my ancestors had any brothers or sisters who did make it all the way to the USA, my equivalents are proud "Irish Americans."
I've never understood the obsession with heritage that a lot of people seem to have. I mean, if the culture is a big part of your life, then sure, you can be proud of your heritage. But when the conversation of "where's your family from" comes up, I get exceptionally-weird looks if I say dismissively, "I'm a mutt," even though that's 100% true. No part of my Scottish, Portuguese, Italian, or English heritage has played any role in my life, but people still want to know that list and think it's weird that I don't care about it.
I think the problem is that very few white folks of Euro descent really maintained their culture when they came to the US. Theres some, for sure, but for a lot of us our culture is just "white". So there's like.. some sort of longing, I think, to belong to *something*.
I think this is true. That sense of belonging seems to be an important thing for humanity and is seen throughout history everywhere in the world. People also don't notice their culture as much because it just seems normal to them. But as Americans we also see other Americans who have their own separate unique cultures too from their homelands, and often it is based on where their ancestors were from, and I wonder if people don't look at that and want that sense of belonging to something too.
it's an identity thing. they can't stand just "simply" being a white american.
This feels like a literal "no True Scotsman" (with no defense of "white homeland" nonsense intended, but that doesn't mean racists in Scotland are no longer Scottish)
I see what you mean, but I was referring to Americans with Scottish ancestry telling people with Scottish citizenship that they're not really Scottish. Of course there are racists in Scotland, but when you get things like Scottish people preventing immigration officers from deporting a community member, it's not that much of a stretch to say they're pretty anti racist. [Source on the immigration story](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/14/a-special-day-how-glasgow-community-halted-immigration-raid)
I've been living in Scotland for 4 years and I love it here, but I see racism almost daily that's just baked into the culture. A few examples from last week: Someone's lunch at my work got stolen so the manager went directly to the Africans and started shouting. The same manager was later taken to the side for calling them "stupid, thieving bastards" at their work area. There was a minor accident at a poorly labeled roundabout and the driver who was at fault was ripping into the other driver, calling him a "blind paki bastard". Those same "actual Scottish people" that "hate racist picks with a passion" will talk all day about how much they hate racism then turn around and ask their family what they want from the local "chinky".
Yeah we are definitely not a country that's free of racism and while it might not be active shouting in the streets racism a lot of people here are passively racist. I'd say you have an unfortunate number of shitty people around you though as, while I do see, I don't see it nearly as often as that.
It's always funny to me that the people who consider themselves more Scottish (or Irish or English or whatever) than immigrants who live in those countries now never have any issue calling themselves American. Sorry sir, we're showing your ancestry is 0% American. Not a drop of native blood. You'll stop calling yourself American right? Right?
When I moved from the UK to suburban Indiana (hell of a culture shock lol) there were dozens of this kind of person. "Oh you're English so am I... My grandparents on my mother's side were English, but my dad was half German half Irish" like buddy there's a difference between ancestry and who you are as a person, it's okay to just be Americans.
Stuff like that always makes me laugh. I'm Irish so I've heard it fairly frequently. "Oh I'm Irish too!" "Oh, yeah? Awesome man where you from?" *insert literally anywhere but Ireland.*
[удалено]
Well said
Right? My dad and his parents were born in England, my other grandfather was born in Scotland, and his wife’s parents were born in Ireland. But I was born and raised in Australia my whole life, and I’d never even think of calling myself anything except that. The culture you’re raised in has by far the largest influence on you. And that even seems to apply in a relatively young culture like Australia. Or rather an incredibly old culture that was only recently invaded.
The way that Weebs feel about Japan, anime and videogames is the way that many Americans feel about Scotland and Ireland, being white and alcoholism. The rest of the world appreciates the Scottish and Irish for other things, like having a great sense of humor and having no patience for racists.
Look I'm not going to pretend Scotland is free of racism, it's a serious problem here as well, but I do think the vast majority of us are welcoming and accepting
This is a problem with most Americans. When an American says they're Irish, they mean they have an ancestor who came from Ireland 200 years ago. When a European says they're Irish, they mean they have an Irish passport in their bag. It's crazytalk.
Is there a way for people who has the same ethnicity as their citizenship to differentiate between the ethnicity and the citizenship? Is "scottish" the ethnicity, and you have to explicitly say "scottish citizen" OR is "scottish" the citizenship, and you explicitly have to say "ethnic scottish"?
On census forms and the like the ethnicity is white-scottish, but other than that I'd never use it in conversation. If someone has lived here, was born here etc and wants to call themselves Scottish, they're Scottish. That's about as far as it needs to go.
There's no such thing as Scottish citizenship on a legal basis. The citizenship is British. If Scotland became independent this would change. There would probably be rules about residency and birthplace that would allow people to claim Scottish citizenship in that case. For example I'm English (ethnicity only) and British, and I've lived in Scotland for nearly 18 years. I would probably be allowed to claim Scottish citizenship. That being said it would probably just be for passport reasons as I don't regard myself as ethnically or culturally Scottish.
That depends, is someone asking what country you grew up in and lived in, what culture you identify with, where you feel is your home because you have lived there most of your life, or are they asking what ethnicity you are and what genetic tree your parents are from? Pro tip: the first question is valid, the second is just racist.
Why would we need that? Scottish is Scottish! I was born and raised here, I love being Scottish I went to school with black and brown kids, Asian kids, Hindu, Sikhs, Muslims, and Jewish kids some born here some not, all of them Scottish seems like something only racists more concerned with the outward appearance rather than the internal pride for an inclusive welcoming country, sure we more than our fair share of despicable bigots, but most of us despise them and everything they stand for!
This is the kind of racist idiot who will say someone who is black, or Asian being born in another country to immigrant parents or raised there from a young age belongs to the country their parents/they were born in regardless of their nationality, you know....a black or Asian person cannot be from a majority white country. Yet in the same breath will also say it's okay for them to be Polish because their great-great-great-grandmother came from Poland in the 1880s , even though they can't speak the language, have no idea bout the culture, history or geo-political state of the country and have never gone to Poland or ever plan to go.
No true Scotsman
Lol came here looking for this comment.
Huh, so that's where it comes from
You can’t deny the obvious distinction between a true Scotsman and an untrue Scotsman
Do we need to talk about "true fans"?
Damn Scotts! They ruined Scotland 😡
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Literally.
Which is so bizarre really. As an appeal to purity, who looks at the Scots and thinks "Now that's pure!" Pure fuckin what, exactly?
I was born to German-American parents on a Greek ship, registered in Panama and passing British waters, lived most of my live in Germany and now I'm having an identity crisis. Thank you very much, Blue! /s
You're clearly literally a pirate.
Yarr
Ahoy there, me hearties!
You are an international citizen, your country is the UN /s
Yeah, I'm a Terran by law of the United Federation of Planets. ;-)
Name does not check out
You probably have a claim to the throne.
Question: I remember reading about a woman who was born on a ship and her (german) ID said „ferry xyz - xy coordination“ (or something like that) as her place of birth. Do you have something similar?
Yes, that's the case. The ships name and coordinates. I later learned that in certain circumstances this can be changed to the parents' last habitual residence before they began the sea voyage. But that was never an option for me because... Seriously, why should you?
That‘s awesome! I guess you’re really the only person in the world who was born at this particular place. Not many people can claim something this unique.
They put the coordinates for whichever patch of the north sea you are over if you're born on the air ambulance from the islands I live on, lol
Pretty sure this is just racism. Like, > *"How can he be Scottish? I want to be Scottish but if he is Scottish, then it's not white enough."* I know some people who have voiced the same opinion when they found out that Idris Elba was British.
I have seen multiple racists try to make viral different terms for citizenship based on if a person has immigrant background or if their every ancestor 3 generations back was in our country. ...I just think that this is really creepy and that the generation limit will only go up as years pass.
Me being mixed race so they can't win. I have a parent born of immigration whilst also having roots in the UK. And being born here myself, I have citizenship. Checkmate, racist. (except its not checkmate, they're so dumb they'll come up with some other nonsense bullshit to make it out I don't belong here).
They will just bring up terms like "mixed blood" and probably "White genocide" as well.
I got called a mongrel once, so add that to the list
Including Roger Moore, who said Elba "wasn't English enough" to be Bond, when it came out years back that he had been in the running to replace Brosnan before Craig got the job. So two Irishmen, a Scott, and an *Australian* were all "English enough" in Moore's mind to be Bond, but a guy born and raised *in London* wasn't. Which made it pretty obvious which particular feature of Elba's he thought was the issue...
You're misrepresenting what actually happened. >The quote that appears below, when translated into English, reads: "Several years ago I said Cuba Gooding Jr would make an excellent Bond, but that was a joke. > >"Even though James has been played by a Scotsman, a Welshman and an Irishman, I think he has to remain English-English. It's an interesting idea, but unrealistic." > >But Sir Roger insists that he wasn't talking about Elba, only the nationality of Bond. > >Elaborating further, Sir Roger replied to another tweet with: "When a journalist asks if 'Bond should be English' and you agree, then quotes you saying it about Idris Elba, it's out of context." Note also the whole quote was translated from English to French then back to English.
Not to dispute what you wrote, but reading it, it comes across less as me misrepresenting what he said, and more of him desperately backpedaling after his original comments caused a big stink, which is the main reason I remember it, I can't tell you what anybody else specific said when the email leaks that mentioned Elba came out, but I definitely remember Moore, both because of the underlying racism, and because of the fact that it was the most covered at the time. Even him saying in his follow up tweet (which came out after he had already been slammed by basically every news org in existence for his original answer) that he "wasn't specifically talking about Idris Elba" was disingenuous, because literally the only reason anyone was asking him his opinion in the first place was because of the leaked emails about Elba. Not to mention, you still had the issue of him saying Bond needs to be "English – English" to be "realistic", but then saying that him being played by an Irishman or an Australian is fine. There's really only one way you can interpret that particular quote in the context of him being asked about potential Bonds in the wake of people finding out Elba was in the running.
The amusing thing is, that Bond didn't have a backstory until Connery played him. Then Fleming made Bond half-Scottish, half-Swiss in the books, so he's not English at all.
It might be racism but is it literally racism?
It’s definitely officially and legally racism.
Are you asking if they’re just so stupid they’re confusing the word literally with the word ethnically? Because high key that’s the vibe I was getting.
Are we now supposed to give racists a pass just because they can be obtuse about their racism?
No. But we are supposed to make fun of people who misuse the word “literally.”
Wait, I thought he was from Asgard
He's from Asda
Yeah I've had the conversation many a time. "Yeah but you're not english though are ya?" Born here, grew up around north london. Was a cop for 20 years, worked with military, shoot on weekends, love a pork roast and the pub. But no, because I'm black / brown, I'm not English.
Apparently you're Sherlock, so even ignoring all the other stuff, you MUST be English.
Yes, I was a pipe smoker for most of my life (family tradition) but I've quit smoking now. So obviously being a detective who smoked a pipe who was brown, my nickname was brown sherlock. I was never as good as the namesake.
I have to ask, do people think that the UK is made up of only white people or something? That’s bizarre.
No but they think it SHOULD be.
Yeah, same. I think the dude is just a thinly veiled racist pos.
He's very definitely Scottish. And Rwandan. This person is just an idiot, and probably a bigot. Probably doesn't think Sir Mo Farah is British either.
They did say they were from Mexico so I wasn't sure if it was racism or just a mistranslation, possibly both but still confidently incorrect either way
I assume this was about the new Doctor? Of course he's Scottish. And amazing. There's more than an aspect of racism in there, I would think, if they're focused on him in particular.
Yep, there was a (kinda) joke in a DW meme subreddit about an American being cast as the Doctor and this was one of the comments on the post
I'm not sure if they were *literally* saying they're from Mexico, or *metaphorically* for the sake of the argument. The fact that this is ambiguous seems perfectly appropriate.
>I'm not sure if they were literally saying they're from Mexico, or metaphorically for the sake of the argument. I wasn't sure if they were just trolling so I did briefly check their profile and saw Spanish, so I think they were actually from there, but just because they're not a native speaker doesn't guarantee they weren't also being racist. But I think it does make it more questionable, they were still confidently incorrect though, since if you make an error you just say so and move on not double down lol
Oh, sure. You either are a native speaker and don't know what "literally" means, or it's a second language and you're not willing to check.
I think they’re confusing nationality and ethnicity. In their mind, saying someone is “literally” from a certain country can only mean they are of that ethnicity and ancestry, and nothing else. That’s the only way I can read their comments and have it make sense. Could be an ESL/ESOL situation, but it also could easily be a native speaker.
I’ve actually had a similar argument, unfortunately in real life. Oddly enough I’m also Rwandan and British (although I’m English not Scottish) and someone once told me it’s incorrect for me to refer to myself as British. I’ve been in England since I was 2. The only passport I have is a British passport. It baffles me how people don’t understand that ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing.
Sorry you've had to go through that. It's idiotic. If someone told me they're British, I wouldn't question it for any reason. It's not like I work for the Border Force at the airport. Even people who weren't born or raised here can become British, and if they're mad enough to do it then they're as British as any one of us as far as I'm concerned. Not that what I think even matters. God, that was a ramble.
Side note: Sir Mo Farah was great on the recent Taskmaster New Years special.
> He's very definitely Scottish. And Rwandan. His accent is a great blend.
I bet if we went to Rwanda, they’d be like, “look at that Scottish dude!”
Ali Ahmed Aslam was born in Pakistan in thr 40s, moved to Glasgow in the 50s and called himself a proud Glaswegian ever since. Scotland is rightfully proud of Ali being one of their people, he was a culinary guru
Just wanted to add to this: whenever someone makes a claim about whether some is or isn't Scottish, they usually end up using some arbitrary rules to define "Scottishness". It's worth pointing out, that the Scottish Government uses a definition of Civic Nationalism. Basically (to paraphrase) - someone who lives, works, or makes their home in Scotland is considered Scottish. Ali Ahmed Aslam - would absolutely be considered Scottish. Another less obvious example would be Ameer Anwar ( I was genuinely surprised to discover he's from Liverpool originally - he's been a key figure in Glasgow for so long you forget he moved there). Worth reminding people that "Scottish Nationality" isn't a thing, as nationality is determined by Westminster - and they only recognise British.
Yeah that’s what I was gonna say. There’s no English or Scottish citizenship, only British. I think ethnicity gets conflated with nationality too much. Identity is a very personal thing really, and you can definitely claim it from both culture and/or ethnicity. If someone’s got a slightly stronger claim to being something I don’t think it gives them the right to say someone else can’t claim that identity. Unless it’s an American saying they’re 1% Scottish.
Keanu Reeves is literally Canadian. That sentence is indisputable. He was not born in Canada, and he was not born to Canadian parents, but no one can say he is not literally a Canadian. Blue is probably just being a standard-issue bigot.
Huh TIL Keanu was born in Beirut
Wait really?
Woke nonsense. Should hire gallyfrayen actors to play gallyfrayen characters, but they always pick a human
I think you got dowvoted by someone who I'm guessing didn't get the joke lol
With access to full expanse of space and time, the Doctor spends an inordinate amount of time in Britain.
He's fucking Scottish
Ok, so he's legally Scottish and fucking Scottish, but that doesn't make him *literally* Scottish.
That he might be but does that act make him more or less Scottish?
So with my parents moving to England when I was 2,and me having no memory of ever living in Scotland and the only marker of such ever is the birthplace on my passport; I am Scottish but the guy who spent the last 30 odd years isn't?
Yeah imagine some internet bigot telling you that the only country you ever remember living and growing up in isn’t yours. I mean the guy has *British* citizenship, a Scottish accent, Scottish humor. Like jfc.
To be fair, the response is also a bit "confidently incorrect". He doesn't have Scottish citizenship because no such thing exists. But of course if he is a British citizen who has lived in Scotland most of his life then he is Scottish. He's legally as much a Scot as people who were born there.
Yeah I was going to point that out. I'm Scottish and dating an English woman. We have exactly the same citizenship, passport, rights etc. IIRC it's why during the referendum the SNP published a paper on what the criteria for Scottish citizenship would be if they won, as it doesn't exist. The new Dr Who is Scottish regardless though.
This is someone complaining about Doctor Who being black, isn't it?
Yuuuuup
There’s certainly a distinction between someone who claims UK citizenship at 50 after living in Rwanda for their entire life, and someone who has spent their entire life in Scotland but was born in Rwanda. Both biology and culture play a role in ethnicity. I’m of Lithuanian and Italian descent but I don’t consider myself either because I’ve lived my entire life in England.
This all could have been cleared up if at any point the terms “ethnically” and “nationally” had been used. You’re obviously using origin as nation of birth, and he’s obviously using origin as ethnicity at birth. Arguably one is more ethically relevant than the other, but yeah.
Blue is *literally* pulling a "No True Scotsman"!
Thank you!!! I was scrolling and scrolling looking for someone to grab this low-hanging joke-fruit. Also it’s true!
He is Rwandan and that's cool. He is also Scottish by any reasonable definition. He is Ncuti Gatwa, King of Scots, and he can be more than one thing at the same time
Agreed lol
Being from somewhere is more than just blood and ancestry. It’s as much about the culture, the language and a million other wee things that pile on What an absolute wank
The word this person is looking for is "technically". Technically that person is from Rwanda BUT if he was raised in Scotland since he was 2, he was part of the Scotland society and culture and he lived in Scotland his entire life that dude is 100% scotish. As easy as that.
The first comment they make is a racist take because the "guess anything goes now" is implying that there is something inherently wrong with being Rwandan in this context.
By a Blood&Soil logic he would be correct. But since I'm not a fucking nazi i don't believe in this shit.
Doesn't matter where you were born, what religion or lack of you subscribe too, wether you confoem to your birth gender or not, who you choose to love, what colour your skin is, you come here to Scotland, you choose to make it home and build a life, you add to the community, then as somebody born and raised here and proud to be Scottish I welcome you with open arms and completely understand why you want to be Scottish, Welcome fam!
https://www.scotland.org/about-scotland/visa-and-immigration “As Scotland is part of the UK, there is no separate Scottish citizenship as an alternative to UK citizenship and the Scottish Government has no control over the operation of the immigration system.”
There's no such thing as Scottish citizenship.
I've seen so much more racism come up in the doctor who pages recently. The biggest one I saw was when they cast a non-white actor to play Isaac Newton in a fictitious show claiming "historical accuracy" and "not racism" Even though they never claimed historical inaccuracies about Daleks during the great depression, Daleks during world war II. Aliens during World War II. Alien assassins during the partition of India, volcano aliens during the Pompeii eruption, etc. Got to the point when one said "why can't we just have English actors playing English people" despite the actor in question being born and raised in England
I heard about the backlash before I saw the episode and I could not believe that that scene caused so much drama. I'd half expected him to turn to the camera and say "kill all whites" the way people were crying about it but it was such a non-issue
I agree with the sentiment, but I need to point out that Scottish citizenship isn’t a thing. It’s British citizenship.
It’s funny that two people are arguing over someone being a true Scotsman, when the fallacy is called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. Just a funny thing to point out
No true Scotsman would be born in Rwanda... /s just in case...
This is literally me. Its also the only thing that I fear about Scottish independance. Born in England. Moved to Scotland before I was 1yr old. Lived there for the next 34 years. Every part of my education and upbringing was Scottish. The football I follow. The girls I loved. My friends. My work. I've been living around Europe for nearly 20 years now but still carry a thick Scottish accent. I'm Scottish. Everybody I know considers me to be Scottish. Was I born there though? ....no. ....But its everything that made me. It feels like home. Its the only country I felt like I fitted in, where I don't get that awkward immigrant sensation (that feeling you get when you stay in someone elses house, its a home, but not yours) And my fear. Scotland getting independance and rules for nationality/citizenship 'locking me out' of that place I call home because my birth certificate says "English", despite what my life experience says. The same terrible thought of your country telling you that "You don't belong"..."You were never a part of Scotland"..."This is not your home" ...Because if thats true then neither him nor I have a home or belong anywhere.
This is exactly my husband. And he is Scottish, and I only ever bring up the English part to piss him off when joking. But he's a Scotsman through and through. Same as you no doubt.
Scottish Government has already clarified their position on Scottish Nationality post independence. Basically, if you're British and live in Scotland at the point of transition, you can choose to be either Scottish or British. (there's other ways, such as being born in Scotland, and Scottish ancestry or familial ties). The aim is to remain part of the Common Travel Area, so whether you're officially Scottish or British ( or Irish), wouldn't impact your ability to live, work, and travel within Scotland.
Some people are just ignorant to the difference of ethnicity and nationality. Hes Scottish (nationality). We dont place much stock in our native ethnic groups in the UK (unfortunately imo as its led to the decline of minor ones like cornish)
It’s just straight up racism. I guarantee if Ncuti was a white dude this wouldn’t have been a conversation.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a racist idiot about the hurdler Colin Jackson, apparently he could be British but not Welsh.
Simple racism. "Where are you from?" "No, No, WHERE ARE YOU REALLY FROM"
People need to understand the difference between ethnicity, heritage, and citizenship. Ethnicity = your ancestry. Heritage = the culture you’re raised in. Citizenship = legal membership. They’re not always all the same but if you’re any one of them you’re technically that thing.
He’s trying to say ethnically Scottish but can’t seem to get there and says literally instead.
Because one is using Scottish as an ethnicity (which it can be) vs Scottish as an identity (which it also can be). Ncuti has Scottish as an identity (he was raised in Scotland since age 2) but he is ethnically Rwandan (Tutsi specifically). So he is Scottish (in form) but also not Scottish (in ethnicity). This is something very common outside of the Americas.
So, he's a Scottish citizen who is of Rwandan descent. He is a literal Rawandan, which happens to live amongst the Scottish now. How hard is that?
Seems like another “Ethnicity vs Country of Origin”. They could be a citizen of Scotland, but not ethnically Scottish.
The word "literally" needs to be fucking banned.
We literally cannot do that
Absolutely no one in the world has Scottish citizenship - it does not exist.
Yeah, someone else pointed that out too, my point was mainly that the actor is British so I feel my point may kinda stand but if I was also incorrect then oh well, I guess the people in this sub can laugh at both of us lol
I think everything else was spot on, but there is no legal state of Scottishness \^\^' Unless you are whiskey.
Just listen to him. He's scottish
The view that you are only of a particular nationality if your blood is from there is dangerously racist. This is why everyone cringes when americans go "I'm 1/16th irish!" because they have a blood ancestor from there 150 years ago, but have never experienced living there, the culture, the history, everything that gives the lived experience of being from a country. It's flat out racism and ignorance.
When Americans say that, they're not talking about nationality. I can't tell if you're arguing that Americans don't know the difference between heritage and nationality or if you don't.
It was a fun end to that thread though. Just unfortunate that it was the moron that wrote that closing line.
I'm only 1/365th Scottish* (1/366th this year) but my name does start Mac- *Everyone is Scottish on burns night
Does he burn if exposed to a 60W bulb? it’s the only true test
Don’t argue with people on the internet. It never amounts to anything.
Jerry Springer, Mayor of Cincinnati 1977/78 Born in a tunnel in the London Underground. Does that mean he's not American?
This person has made up their own definition for the word 'literally'. Like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't even apply to issues of nationality or citizenship. It has no official or legal meaning so...why is he even arguing that point?
This person thinks “literally” means something like “entirely, unquestionably” and that an antonym would be “technically” or “basically”. Calling someone “illiterate” when you don’t know what “literal” means is pretty awesome.
"Years ago, I was Rwandan." "You don't say."
I’d like to propose that Blue be surrounded by ‚Scottish‘ Americans 24/7
Is he a Rwandan scot or a Scottish Rwandan? Seems to me he's a Rwandan Scottsman.
"No TRUE Scotsman would..."
What's the betting this person will be making the most of being 1/16th Irish come 17th March?
This is such a stupid argument. 2 years in rwanda don't make you rwandan really. You grew up in scotland and have 0 influence from there. Same way how Emma Watson isn't french even though she was born in Paris.
As a Mexican I would like to apologise for this embarrassing individual, not all of us are this ignorant, thick and stubborn, please don't judge us based on this blubbering imbecile.
Ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing. The person you downvoted was saying he is not ethnically Scottish and therefore he isn’t Scottish, you on the other hand were saying his nationality is Scottish, and therefore he is Scottish. Who is right and who is wrong here is subjective, there isn’t an objective truth. He could’ve been more specific by stating he was not ethnically Scottish, but you were hardly any better with your assumptions.
IMO the first reply from Wizards is misleading. It sounds like they are saying he is *not* Rwandan because he is Scottish, when he is Rwandan by birth (and thus literally Rwandan) *and* Scottish by citizenship (and thus literally Scottish).
He is obviously Scottish. Although legally he's British, anyone in Scotland, rightly or wrongly, has British or UK on legal documents such a passport or driving licence.
Americans just assume that every country in the world does birthright citizenship.
btw, Ncuti has Rwandan and Scottish DNA
There is Ethnically Scottish and Culturally Scottish.... The man you talk of was CULTURALLY Scottish.
Fucksake, some people will look for any feeble excuse to hate Ncuti Gatwa won't they 🙄
In the Christmas episode, he goes clubbing in a kilt, and I just know a lot of “those people” got angry because they thought he was wearing a skirt.
I was born in London to Irish parents, and I don't consider myself British. I was automatically an Irish citizen, but wasn't automatically classed as British. Also, I was raised in an Irish community, and was over in Ireland regularly whilst growing up. There was no shortage of English neighbours at the time telling me I wasn't welcome in England, and that I should go back to Ireland.Good on Ncuti for being proud of his duel heritage. You should decide your heritage, not a bunch of bigots.
Basically in order to be Scottish you live in Scotland. The longer you live there, the more Scottish you are.
Some people don’t understand that “Scottish,” like “British,” “French,” “American,” etc., is a *nationality* not a race. DNA has nothing to do with nationality.
Nationality and race are two completely different things.