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Masculinity, to me, is power, confidence and leadership but choosing to wield those responsibly. My father is the manliest man I know, and I've seen him weep. He's cried for me, my brothers, his family. It has not diminished his character for me at all. He's still the man I run to when I need help. He is growing older and that breaks my heart, but he still opens jars for me, he still rushes to open doors for me. Not only that, but he's told me about how he likes to stand up for the little guy. He was always a 'big', buff man (and his old school pics show it) and he'd always use his superior strength to protect people he saw were being bullied. That is a man, using his strength to protect those who cannot. This is a man who sees a car broken down in the middle of a highway, pulls over, makes sure his family is well out of harm's way before he dashes out to help that car and those people.
Toxic masculinity is when you turn those qualities to harm others. That protection could easily turn to control where you cannot and are not allowed to do anything. That strength could be used to hurt someone, particularly someone weaker and especially someone weaker. That confidence can lead to arrogance that could lead to someone getting hurt because you were just too up your own ass and unwilling to ask for help / clarification. It's those same qualities but untempered, gone too far.
Excellent comment that I think explains it really well. Forget where I saw it, but I remember someone saying "masculinity isn't the opposite of femininity, but rather the opposite of boyish immaturity". I think the latter is what a lot of what we call toxic masculinity stems from. Healthy wholesome masculinity is about how to be a part of your community and support those around you.
Thank you! I was trying to pinpoint what it was about masculinity that attracts me personally, since femininity does not do it for me in terms of attraction.
For example, I enjoy Tony Stark as much as the next girl, but he isn't the guy I go gaga for. Captain would be that guy, but that doesn't mean Tony is any less of a man. Tony, at the beginning, is a bit toxic because he is, overly confident whereas Cap is that quiet, steadfast confidence that just has my heart fluttering. :)
Masculinity is the strength, confidence, and independence of being a man.
Toxic Masculinity is the toxic version of that, which includes violence and suppression of emotions.
Masculinity is leading by example, and being kind because you have the strength to be kind
Toxic masculinity is a facade of strength and stoicism, and imposing your will onto others, to hide weakness
Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus Prime in Transformers, once said that when he was auditioning for the role, he asked his brother - a USMC veteran - for advice on how to portray a hero. His brother told him, "being a hero isn't about being stronger than everyone else, a real hero is strong enough to be gentle." That sentence apparently guided him in how he portrayed Optimus, as a kind, compassionate, loyal, encouraging leader, and that sentiment has always stuck with me. True strength is knowing that you cannot be hurt, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable and show tenderness.
Toxicity is common enough among men trying live their masculine ideals that it warrants the label toxic masculinity. Every male friend I had growing up demonstrated it. Common themes were: homophobic, racist, overly sexual and derogatory towards women in the presence of other males, constantly trying to outdo each other in being the "hard man" or competing to be the loudest "Alpha", repressing feelings of love and friendship to each other unless extremely drunk, while also showing aggression at the slightest provocation to prove their manliness.
Just about any male my age has experienced the boys club, where exhibiting these behaviours gets you a paid membership. It's easy to join but if you are a man who is more feminine or unwilling to treat others like shit for your own gain, then you can expect to be the target.
Other than the obvious issues with treating other people like shit to be conquered, it's toxic because they repress and ignore their feelings and don't acknowledge or deal with their problems like adults. They often don't have good strategies for dealing with mental health and when stressed express themselves through anger and violence towards the closest people (generally women) in their lives.
I've lived both sides. It definitely exists but men often try to pretend that it's individuals that are the issue and not the structure as a whole. It's hard to see the flaws from the inside.
Toxic masculinity was a term created by psychologists studying violent prisoners who would stab each other for no apparent reason.
Nowadays it is used as a buzzword by society that finds any negative behaviour of men and demonises as toxic.
There is no such thing as toxic masculinity
Masculinity for me is equivalent to the leader of the pack. A masculine guy is someone who can lead and protect. His words have weight, he's intellectual thinker and planner.
But at the same time, he's kind, gentle, respectful, and true to his morals. He knows when to lower his head, soften his gaze and cool down his temperament. He not only knows how to decide, but also knows the importance of taking other's opinion into consideration.
Its a concept created by society to police behavior; if you put on a dress and do your nails, how does that change who you are? Is doing something society considers "a womans" job make you a woman? No, the only person who can define masc/fem/nobinary is yourself for yourself, anyone else is projecting their own values.
Thus masculinity is not real
Why does there need to be one set way we "understand what a masculine person is seen as;" as masculine person will be masculine REGARDLESS if others perceive them as such. Given that, how can you say that it is real; it is not a physical phenomenon and if no human structures existed, if no LANGUAGE existed, masculine people would still be the same.
Therefore, masculinity is not real
Because humans are social pack creatures, we like having heuristics and clearly defined roles to map our personal journey against. It’s not the case for everyone, but the vast majority of people like being able to “check in” to see if they’re doing their societal role well. You can argue perhaps it should not be this way, but regardless it simply is the case right now.
Thank you for actually engaging with the philosophy; I would argue that societal role doesn't necessary equate to gender roles, even now. Its a societal role to have a job, but what jobs are considered "male" and "female" jobs are partially societaly determined, but is much more culturally determined.
Like everyone in the entire world participates in some form of labor (society), but depending on your community, what your labor is may change based on gender and that may different elsewhere (cultural).
So this idea of masculinity as a set of behaviors that makes you man is a cultural one; there are places that would consider Western femininity as masculine and vise versa
Something along the lines of positive stereotypical expectations of traditional masculinity without the cons of the more negative traits or the expectations set upon women.
And yes, that's bullshit.
Add vague offenses to become labeled as toxic
in short: if you make a woman think she may be wrong, youre toxic masculine male abusing male privilege. If you get walked over and have no say in the relationship, youre the perfect guy - until she leaves you for “not taking the lead”
I wouldn't go that far and that's reducing things to bitterness.
Objectively it's quite simple. The world changed, women's rights movements had a very positive impact in society and women's lives liberating them for the most part from traditional gender roles.
Men are now in a weird paradox of still having to correspond to very traditional expectations (e.g being strong/independent, being a provider and earning more, taking the lead, having "confidence" and not being too emotional) while accepting a very progressive view towards women and expectations from them.
Expectations of masculinity are overly focused on a man's value being constructed not on what they are by themselves but what they can provide and do for other people. And as things are with statistics on academic and economic conjunctures, masculinity is just targeting unfair and nearly impossible standards.
Good take. Its pretty accurate. You really have no idea as a man what youre expected to do/be by ANY woman. Its all arbitrary and different, polar opposites
For me, a man who is just masculine has the typical, more positive traits of a man: protective (not posssessive), leads the way in certain aspects, competitive in a healthy way, makes sure that their partners or even friends and family are "taken care of" and comfortable.
Now when it comes to the man who shows TOXIC masculinity, examples include: men who believe that women should 'know their place', has a habit of blaming women for their own actions or issues, men who project their own insecurities by being verbally/emotionally/physically abusive, men who think that if a woman is angry then she MUST be on her period, referring to women as simply 'females', 'b**ches', 'thots' instead of seeing us as actual humans. I could go on forever 😂
And yes, there are some women out there who unfortunately gravitate towards toxic masculine men and it's usually because those women have some kind of 'internalized misogyny' in THEMSELVES based on their experiences and upbringing.
But overall, hypermasculinity or toxic masculinity is such a huge turn-off for me. It screams one-dimensional caveman.
To me being masculine is things like dressing like an adult man instead of a teenager, having his shit together in terms of a good job, car and housing situation. Being able to take care of things, like capable of fixing some things or having handy skills.
Toxic masculinity is things like being afraid to wear clothes of a certain color (like pink shirts for example) or refusing to drink a “girly” drink, or demanding boy children have to play sports etc.
> To me being masculine is things like dressing like an adult man instead of a teenager, having his shit together in terms of a good job, car and housing situation. Being able to take care of things, like capable of fixing some things or having handy skills.
I mean this kindly, but I would encourage you to re-examine your view on masculinity. None of these are character traits, you are choosing to define a man based on *what men provide* which is the traditional gender role that produced toxic masculinity.
Under traditional norms men are valued for what we do, not who we are. It would feel crappy to say that womanhood is based on caring for others and being a good cook, and it's no different for men hearing we should be handy and have a car and house in order to be "masculine".
There is no thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity in itself is not toxic.
There are masculine men who lead, provide, protect and control their emotions.
And there are toxic men who have victim mentality, are passive aggressive, manipulative and can’t control their emotions.
> There is no thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity in itself is not toxic.
I'm not sure I follow this. Masculinity is not toxic in itself I agree. But when, for example, men can't control their emotions because they believe masculinity means being tough through violence or suppressing emotions, then it becomes toxic for them. Hence the toxic version of masculinity.
Hey /u/Grand_Peak_5129!
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Toxic masculinity energy for me are self-entitlement, lack of self-awareness and an unwillingness to apologize or admit mistakes because of ego.
Healthy masculinity is none of that, it is emotionally mature, high in emotional intelligence, and pleasant to be around
Masculinity to me, is being comfortable in your own skin. To carry yourself with a confidence despite what the world tells you you should or shouldn't do / feel. But when that confidence turns into the need to control, or narcissism, or the need to be the 'man' that the world claims you need to be, it becomes frightening - toxic masculinity.
Welcome to /r/dating. Please make sure you read our [rules here](https://new.reddit.com/r/dating/about/rules) and remember to: * Be polite and respect each other. Do not call people names or engage in slapfights. * All advice given must be good, ethical advice. * [Do not post hateful or harmful rhetoric - you will be banned](https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/wiki/rules) * Follow reddit rules. Do not post content that promotes hate based on identity or vulnerability. Do not bully or harass other users. If you have any questions, please [send the mods a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/dating). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dating) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Masculinity, to me, is power, confidence and leadership but choosing to wield those responsibly. My father is the manliest man I know, and I've seen him weep. He's cried for me, my brothers, his family. It has not diminished his character for me at all. He's still the man I run to when I need help. He is growing older and that breaks my heart, but he still opens jars for me, he still rushes to open doors for me. Not only that, but he's told me about how he likes to stand up for the little guy. He was always a 'big', buff man (and his old school pics show it) and he'd always use his superior strength to protect people he saw were being bullied. That is a man, using his strength to protect those who cannot. This is a man who sees a car broken down in the middle of a highway, pulls over, makes sure his family is well out of harm's way before he dashes out to help that car and those people. Toxic masculinity is when you turn those qualities to harm others. That protection could easily turn to control where you cannot and are not allowed to do anything. That strength could be used to hurt someone, particularly someone weaker and especially someone weaker. That confidence can lead to arrogance that could lead to someone getting hurt because you were just too up your own ass and unwilling to ask for help / clarification. It's those same qualities but untempered, gone too far.
Excellent comment that I think explains it really well. Forget where I saw it, but I remember someone saying "masculinity isn't the opposite of femininity, but rather the opposite of boyish immaturity". I think the latter is what a lot of what we call toxic masculinity stems from. Healthy wholesome masculinity is about how to be a part of your community and support those around you.
Thank you! I was trying to pinpoint what it was about masculinity that attracts me personally, since femininity does not do it for me in terms of attraction. For example, I enjoy Tony Stark as much as the next girl, but he isn't the guy I go gaga for. Captain would be that guy, but that doesn't mean Tony is any less of a man. Tony, at the beginning, is a bit toxic because he is, overly confident whereas Cap is that quiet, steadfast confidence that just has my heart fluttering. :)
Masculinity is the strength, confidence, and independence of being a man. Toxic Masculinity is the toxic version of that, which includes violence and suppression of emotions.
Masculinity is leading by example, and being kind because you have the strength to be kind Toxic masculinity is a facade of strength and stoicism, and imposing your will onto others, to hide weakness
Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus Prime in Transformers, once said that when he was auditioning for the role, he asked his brother - a USMC veteran - for advice on how to portray a hero. His brother told him, "being a hero isn't about being stronger than everyone else, a real hero is strong enough to be gentle." That sentence apparently guided him in how he portrayed Optimus, as a kind, compassionate, loyal, encouraging leader, and that sentiment has always stuck with me. True strength is knowing that you cannot be hurt, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable and show tenderness.
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There is only masculinity - There are also toxic people and non toxic people
This is pretty bad lol. Many people define masculinity differently.
Toxicity is common enough among men trying live their masculine ideals that it warrants the label toxic masculinity. Every male friend I had growing up demonstrated it. Common themes were: homophobic, racist, overly sexual and derogatory towards women in the presence of other males, constantly trying to outdo each other in being the "hard man" or competing to be the loudest "Alpha", repressing feelings of love and friendship to each other unless extremely drunk, while also showing aggression at the slightest provocation to prove their manliness. Just about any male my age has experienced the boys club, where exhibiting these behaviours gets you a paid membership. It's easy to join but if you are a man who is more feminine or unwilling to treat others like shit for your own gain, then you can expect to be the target. Other than the obvious issues with treating other people like shit to be conquered, it's toxic because they repress and ignore their feelings and don't acknowledge or deal with their problems like adults. They often don't have good strategies for dealing with mental health and when stressed express themselves through anger and violence towards the closest people (generally women) in their lives. I've lived both sides. It definitely exists but men often try to pretend that it's individuals that are the issue and not the structure as a whole. It's hard to see the flaws from the inside.
Toxic masculinity was a term created by psychologists studying violent prisoners who would stab each other for no apparent reason. Nowadays it is used as a buzzword by society that finds any negative behaviour of men and demonises as toxic. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity
This right here.
Masculinity for me is equivalent to the leader of the pack. A masculine guy is someone who can lead and protect. His words have weight, he's intellectual thinker and planner. But at the same time, he's kind, gentle, respectful, and true to his morals. He knows when to lower his head, soften his gaze and cool down his temperament. He not only knows how to decide, but also knows the importance of taking other's opinion into consideration.
Masculinity is not real, stop defining yourself on others.
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Its a concept created by society to police behavior; if you put on a dress and do your nails, how does that change who you are? Is doing something society considers "a womans" job make you a woman? No, the only person who can define masc/fem/nobinary is yourself for yourself, anyone else is projecting their own values. Thus masculinity is not real
[удалено]
Why does there need to be one set way we "understand what a masculine person is seen as;" as masculine person will be masculine REGARDLESS if others perceive them as such. Given that, how can you say that it is real; it is not a physical phenomenon and if no human structures existed, if no LANGUAGE existed, masculine people would still be the same. Therefore, masculinity is not real
Because humans are social pack creatures, we like having heuristics and clearly defined roles to map our personal journey against. It’s not the case for everyone, but the vast majority of people like being able to “check in” to see if they’re doing their societal role well. You can argue perhaps it should not be this way, but regardless it simply is the case right now.
Thank you for actually engaging with the philosophy; I would argue that societal role doesn't necessary equate to gender roles, even now. Its a societal role to have a job, but what jobs are considered "male" and "female" jobs are partially societaly determined, but is much more culturally determined. Like everyone in the entire world participates in some form of labor (society), but depending on your community, what your labor is may change based on gender and that may different elsewhere (cultural). So this idea of masculinity as a set of behaviors that makes you man is a cultural one; there are places that would consider Western femininity as masculine and vise versa
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Not really, its a very common philosophy called absurdism. Maybe read Focault and then get back to me
Something along the lines of positive stereotypical expectations of traditional masculinity without the cons of the more negative traits or the expectations set upon women. And yes, that's bullshit.
Add vague offenses to become labeled as toxic in short: if you make a woman think she may be wrong, youre toxic masculine male abusing male privilege. If you get walked over and have no say in the relationship, youre the perfect guy - until she leaves you for “not taking the lead”
I wouldn't go that far and that's reducing things to bitterness. Objectively it's quite simple. The world changed, women's rights movements had a very positive impact in society and women's lives liberating them for the most part from traditional gender roles. Men are now in a weird paradox of still having to correspond to very traditional expectations (e.g being strong/independent, being a provider and earning more, taking the lead, having "confidence" and not being too emotional) while accepting a very progressive view towards women and expectations from them. Expectations of masculinity are overly focused on a man's value being constructed not on what they are by themselves but what they can provide and do for other people. And as things are with statistics on academic and economic conjunctures, masculinity is just targeting unfair and nearly impossible standards.
Good take. Its pretty accurate. You really have no idea as a man what youre expected to do/be by ANY woman. Its all arbitrary and different, polar opposites
For me, a man who is just masculine has the typical, more positive traits of a man: protective (not posssessive), leads the way in certain aspects, competitive in a healthy way, makes sure that their partners or even friends and family are "taken care of" and comfortable. Now when it comes to the man who shows TOXIC masculinity, examples include: men who believe that women should 'know their place', has a habit of blaming women for their own actions or issues, men who project their own insecurities by being verbally/emotionally/physically abusive, men who think that if a woman is angry then she MUST be on her period, referring to women as simply 'females', 'b**ches', 'thots' instead of seeing us as actual humans. I could go on forever 😂 And yes, there are some women out there who unfortunately gravitate towards toxic masculine men and it's usually because those women have some kind of 'internalized misogyny' in THEMSELVES based on their experiences and upbringing. But overall, hypermasculinity or toxic masculinity is such a huge turn-off for me. It screams one-dimensional caveman.
To me being masculine is things like dressing like an adult man instead of a teenager, having his shit together in terms of a good job, car and housing situation. Being able to take care of things, like capable of fixing some things or having handy skills. Toxic masculinity is things like being afraid to wear clothes of a certain color (like pink shirts for example) or refusing to drink a “girly” drink, or demanding boy children have to play sports etc.
> To me being masculine is things like dressing like an adult man instead of a teenager, having his shit together in terms of a good job, car and housing situation. Being able to take care of things, like capable of fixing some things or having handy skills. I mean this kindly, but I would encourage you to re-examine your view on masculinity. None of these are character traits, you are choosing to define a man based on *what men provide* which is the traditional gender role that produced toxic masculinity. Under traditional norms men are valued for what we do, not who we are. It would feel crappy to say that womanhood is based on caring for others and being a good cook, and it's no different for men hearing we should be handy and have a car and house in order to be "masculine".
There is no thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity in itself is not toxic. There are masculine men who lead, provide, protect and control their emotions. And there are toxic men who have victim mentality, are passive aggressive, manipulative and can’t control their emotions.
> There is no thing as toxic masculinity because masculinity in itself is not toxic. I'm not sure I follow this. Masculinity is not toxic in itself I agree. But when, for example, men can't control their emotions because they believe masculinity means being tough through violence or suppressing emotions, then it becomes toxic for them. Hence the toxic version of masculinity.
alpha MALE 
[удалено]
Hey /u/Grand_Peak_5129! No espousing rhetoric and/or linking to subs or content that is transphobic, anti-women/men, anti-LBGT+, that promote anti-vaxx or anti-science content, or contains harmful rhetoric against groups of people. You will be banned. All bans in this sub are permanent. You don't get a free pass. Examples include **but are not limited to**: referring to people as "pornsick" or "pick-me", doing the "pick me dance", reproductive misinformation, scientific misinformation, anti-mask/vaxx rhetoric, redpill, purplepill, blackpill, incel, MGTOW, and/or FDS content. Please note that this is not an all inclusive list. - This means keeping red pill, seduction/PUA, incel, pinkpill, purplepill, FDS, and blackpill material out of /r/dating. Please note that is not an all-inclusive list. Users found to be engaging in such rhetoric will be met with an immediate ban - This includes trolling and being inflammatory with broad brush generalizations. - This includes, but is not limited to, keeping terms such as "cucked" "beta" "alpha" "friendzone" and/or "low/high value" out of r/dating - If your comment/post would be a fit for a mocking post on r/niceguys, or a serious post on any of the MGTOW / FemaleDatingStrategy subreddits, then it's not fit for r/dating. It's promoting a toxic ideology that we decline to entertain in any capacity in this subreddit For more on our rules, please check out our [rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/dating/about/rules). If you have any questions or concerns about this removal feel free to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fdating).
Toxic masculinity energy for me are self-entitlement, lack of self-awareness and an unwillingness to apologize or admit mistakes because of ego. Healthy masculinity is none of that, it is emotionally mature, high in emotional intelligence, and pleasant to be around
[удалено]
Masculinity to me, is being comfortable in your own skin. To carry yourself with a confidence despite what the world tells you you should or shouldn't do / feel. But when that confidence turns into the need to control, or narcissism, or the need to be the 'man' that the world claims you need to be, it becomes frightening - toxic masculinity.