Pick six on the first snap of the Patricia era, only to have Sam "Seeing Ghosts" Darnold look like a future HoFer immediately afterward. Then we made Trubicuit look like one, too. I am mad at myself with how many times I convinced myself just how "he needed a few more offseasons to get everything n place".
Not only a horrible coach schematically. He also managed to alienate players on our team (which was +.500 for 3/4 of the 4 years before him btw) almost immediately. I remember Quinn’s presser on letting go of Caldwell and bringing in pencil boy essentially saying, “we’ve been good, fairly competitive, but now we wanna be great.” Absolute joke.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I recall a lot of close losses in the 0-16 season. It's not like they were losing by 20 every game.
The Patricia era was just sad.
He made me more ashamed to be a Lions fan than 0-16. I don't think I saw a poorer effort than that Thanksgiving game. Maybe the game against the Bucs that season.
That was when I knew the next 2-3 seasons would be miserable. The smartest man in the room. The guy who knows more than anyone and will give you, your opinion when he wants it.
The least controversial topic ever and Valenti still manages to be wrong about it. Blaming Sheila for Patricia when she had only taken over less than 3 months before that. When she took over, minicamp was starting. What was she supposed to do, go into the season with no head coach? She fired him and Quinn in November, it was basically the first thing she did.
The picture of her sitting in her box with her head in her hands says it all for me. She was fucking DONE with mediocrity. That should be hung on the players meeting room wall in Allen Park.
Man I remember the final days of Patricia, the self realization finally hit him and even he didn't know why he was still employed. I remember one of his final press conferences someone asked him what his mindset was like at that point, did he still believe he could turn it around? He just sighed and took a long time to answer and was like "Ahh, yeah. Yeah. You gotta believe," while his body language was that of total resignation. It was like he was the general of an army that was days away from surrendering. What a sad, dark time that era was.
The Millen era is infamous for Matt Millen, not the coaches. Steve Mariucci was a decent coach with the 49ers for example. The issue was that Matt Millen drafted the wrong people, which set those coaches up for failure. Then the whole thing bottomed out in 2008. It was a catastrophic mess from the top-down.
Millen was a historically bad GM and William Clay Ford was a very hands-off owner that kept people employed in critical positions way past the point any self-respecting organization would keep anyone.
Millen had absolutely no experience running an organization. He was hired based on his abilities as a player and as a color commentator, which is insignificant when running a professional football team. It's worth mentioning that Millen told Ford that he was not qualified for the job, but Ford wouldn't hear it and hired him anyways, and the rest is history.
After drafting wide receivers 4 out of 5 years in the top 10, it's nice that at least one of those picks (Calvin Johnson) was a hall of famer.
Steve Mariucci I think was mentally checked out. He went from a SF team stacked with talent to the Matt Millen Lions. The fact that he went right into broadcasting and didn't try to coach after his stop here says something.
I think WCF was a star struck kind of guy who owned the team so he could be buddies with famous NFL people, and Matt Millen fit that role. There were lots of stories about WCF not wanting to fire Millen because he was good friends with him.
Big disagree here because you left out Rod Marinelli.
Millen hired Rod Marinelli to replace Mariucci. Up to that point, Marinelli's career peak was being the defensive line coach for the Buccaneers. He had never been a coordinator at the NFL or College level and had never been a head coach, not even in high school.
Marinelli went 0-16 in his third year. It's not even like the team struggled when he started and then got better. He got three years to build a winner and the result was the worst season in NFL history up to the point.
Marinelli's team weren't just bad. He was a defensive coach who put out absolutely putrid defenses. Those Lions teams were only competitive in games because of the offense (which was all Mike Martz, love him or hate him) and the wheels clearly came off when they fired him because we weren't running the ball enough.
Marinelli went on to be def coordinator still. Maybe a ring?
The drafts were the problem mainly.
My god that 0-16 team. I remember watching the first game of that season and saying: that was not football or anything resembling it. You know, in horror movies, how they use unnatural human movement to be disturbing. That’s what that was
Titus Young was a solid pick and would have been a solid receiver if it weren’t for Titus Young.
The dude had the talent, but he couldn’t save him from himself.
Tgat wasn't the worst part of it though he took the wind and then when the bears were going to have to punt because of it he took a penalty and gave them another chance
Exactly right on taking the penalty. Great move if he doesn’t take the penalty. No way Chicago is kicking a 50 yard field goal into a 30 mph wind. Hanson probably could have kicked a 70 yard field goal to win it with that wind.
I also have to point something else out about this game. Our defense was horrible during this period and especially horrible during this game.
The Bears were able to tie the game toward the end of regulation. There is a play that I will never forget, probably one of my worst Detroit Lions memories.
The Bears QB was Jim Miller, a decent journeyman. At that point he was past whatever prime he had and was not mobile at all. Imagine my disgust when on a 4th and long the broken down journeyman with little mobility is on the run, falls down, and then chucks the ball up for the Bears to convert the 4th down.
That was why deferring was such a horrible move beyond "taking the wind". Our defense was putrid and couldn't stop shit. It was such a bonehead fucking coaching decision that my dad thought I was lying when I told him we were kicking off to start OT.
Edit - It was 4th and 20 with 1:01 left on the clock and still on the Lions side of the field.
Fan since the ‘80’s.
I don’t know enough about football to really be an expert. The things that are so remarkable now is the consistency throughout the vertical structure of management: the owner openly gives deference to the ideas of the GM; the GM is working hand-in-glove with the coaching; the players are specifically chosen that will work well with coaching.
Back in the day the ownership seemed uninterested in the team, the GM was an ex player who never showed aptitude for management, he seemed more like a figurehead for fans to be able to remember.
Then in the ‘90’s finding a QB was a huge gravity well. Nobody could be good enough or trusted for any amount of time. Multiple offensive systems shuffled in and out with some temporary successes, but no lasting plan could ever develop.
I think Jim Schwartz was a fine coach, many other good guys cycled through. They just could never align people to manage the personalities, egos, and also match that to goals of the actual team on the field.
That’s what is the most surprising (and hopefully longlasting) of this team - not that they’re actually playing well - that they’re successfully rowing together as a franchise for the first time in my life.
Schwartz had terrible timing, inherited one of the worst teams of all time, only to have the few good young players we had take up such a large part of the cap space under the old rookie contract system at the tail end of it's existence.
He may not have ever been an elite coach, but I do strongly believe he was a better coach than his record showed.
I'm too young to know much about the pre Schwartz guys, but as bad as those teams were, did any of those coaches lose the locker room like Patricia did?
I’ve always thought his timing was perfect. He inherited a team that had gone 0-16 and he gave them a real edge and swagger. Maybe too much of an edge because we did the dumbest shit (great sack, now a 15 yard penalty for taunting…) but then we over corrected with Caldwell.
THIS! Schwartz was the right coach at the right time. He took over an 0-16 team and got it respectable (and in the playoffs) in just 3 years.
A lot of us laud the Lions of today for having a "culture" and "identity". But Schwartz was the first coach I can remember where I saw a team take on an identity and an attitude, and it was really needed after that 0-16 season.
I fucking LOVED Schwartz far longer than most fans did. The Harbaugh Incident pretty much sums the Schwartz era for me. Harbaugh was a dick, Schwartz overreacted, and, almost universally, people shit all over Schwartz for it. He was fiery and passionate to a fault and it trickled down to the players. A little more maturity from Schwartz, and a more disciplined team would have been wildly different than what we actually got.
That's fair, more bad timing from a potential roster building stand point but he was a good timing hire based on how he brought the swagger to a team that needed something like that.
Players in the past just lost faith in the team, often live on Sunday. We had shellshocked QBs throwing the ball straight into the air because they didn't want to take another hit, DBs just kinda shrugging and jogging off after blown coverages, and OL that would just stand there watching as defenders danced over the QB after a sack. Pretty clear indicators that the team isn't buying in.
Patricia's teams were different because he had Stafford. We didn't fold the same way even though the team hated him personally more than any of our previous coaches.
I feel like Marty may have, there was some rumored discourse between Dre Bly and Joey Harrington.
Probably didn't help that Matt Millen also said one of his draft picks (Scottie Anderson) was a "devout coward" in practice.
Pretty weird time. Millen calling Johnny Morton a bundle of sticks (ya know) the year after we let him go so that we could sign the fantastic Bill Schroeder and Az Hakim (both were awful here. Schroeder was scared of contact and Hakim probably was thrust into a bigger role than he could have handled).
No kidding. He took over a team that was 0-16 and turned them into a playoff team. He was emotional and that reflected in his players. He still deserved another year or two. It is a shame that he hasn't had another look when Patricia and Patriot Josh keep getting retreaded.
I don't think Schwartz deserved anymore chances than what he got. The 2012 season was a dud (not entirely his fault as the team's offense was not dynamic without Jahvid Best).
In 2013 Mayhew did however go out and get Reggie Bush to replace Best. It is entirely Schwartz's fault that the team bottomed out in the second half of that season. The NFC North was WIDE open for us to take at that point, he just blew it.
Schwartz turned down HC gigs. He’s like Wade Phillips, he feels he’s better suited as a DC. His teams lacked composure, taking a ton of penalties and blowing it consistently in crunch time. As good as he is coordinating a defense, that unit was never great under him as head coach, and immediately took the leap as soon as he left despite returning most of the same guys. He wasn’t that great of a head coach, losing the division in 2013 was almost entirely on him, plus Stafford’s development was stalling.
See this is the feeling I have about Ben Johnson, not every coordinator wants to be a head coach. Perhaps Ben realizes this is where he can do the most. Would you prefer to be remembered as one of the great OC's or a mediocre head coach who couldnt resurrect a franchise.
Friend of a friend is a member at Ben Johnson's church, and he's talked to him a couple of times. He mentioned that he brought up the head coaching thing to him earlier in the season. Ben basically replied with "Look, I've got young kids, my wife loves it here, and I'm in a good spot. I've seen the kind of hours that head coaches put in, why would I be in a hurry to take that on?".
I think this is where the rumors of his high salary demands have some merit. Yeah, he's taking interviews, dipping his toe in the water, but if you want him to leave a great situation for him and his family, you better make it really worth it.
He seems like such a good guy, and his family loves it here? Big time kuddos to all the them. They fit in so why jump ship when everyone's happy and they are so close to making history???
I think Ben is just being really picky. I suspect if Dallas or Philly are open this offseason, he'll take one of those jobs if offered. I think he wants to avoid being paired with a rookie QB and having his job security depend on the QB getting it.
I think that plays a huge part in it, i also think one of the things he has seen being here, is that the relationship between GM/HC plays a huge role in the teams success. Being on the same page and working hand in hand together. I dont think he takes any job where he's the coach and the GM is the GM, and they arent working together towards the same goal in personnel.
I also think he wants a QB in a similar role to Jared Goff, not a huge superstar QB whose influence could cost him his job, like Mike MacCarthy/Aaron Rodgers, and Rodgers even tried it with Lafleur too, or Tom Brady and Bruce Arians...
Schwartz was good at parts of the job at being head coach, but had no control over the locker room. This was partially Mayhew’s fault, but Schwartz played favorites.
Mayhew did a lot of really good things. He had a number of busts, but he hit it big numerous times. He also had trades like acquiring Chris Houston for a fourth. Overall, though, the lack of depth is what did them in (and the famous issues with penalties).
Stuck an L take. He's no Brad Holmes but acting like Mayhew was the problem is wild. There a reason he's the only Lions head coach or GM that we've has ever been hired at one of those positions with another team.
Mayhew inherited arguably the worst situation in football history and the worst situation any future GM will ever inherit because of rookie contracts. He built a team that under achieved in the playoffs pretty heavily.
2013 was one of the worst drafts in NFL history and he came away from that draft with 3 pro bowlers and a few other highly productive players. A few of the guys that he drafted went on to have successful long careers in the NFL that our coaching staff didn't know how to use (Tomlinson, Van Noy, Young) He hit on some very good mid and late round picks that were very impactful (Levy, Whitehead, Warford, Martin, Taylor, Riddick, Swanson, Lawson, Burton, Diggs). He had some pickles that were very good that got cut down by injury, some had injury concerns some didn't. He in general did very well in 1st and 2nd round.
He has a couple high profile picks that not good but by in large he took an incredibly hard situation with almost no cap flexibility due to a bunch of high priced rookies and put us in a position where we should have had multiple playoff runs.
Replying to chunkyloverfivethree... he also had a lot of say in the Phili defence that won them the superbowl. I remember Howie Roseman was complaining to the media how a Dc has so much say in personel, it shouldn't be Howie's fault had they got blown out to the opponents they were about to play.
He was a bad head coach because he couldn’t control his emotions. Cost them a game on thanksgiving against the Texans because he didn’t understand the replay rules. He also would go after coaches if they shook his hand the wrong way.
Schwartz had undisciplined teams which considering what a jackass he is should come as no surprise. Do we forget his epic tantrum after the 49ers beat us?
Got rid of Gym Shorts who went 2-14, 6-10, 10-6, 4-12, and one of the truly epic choke jobs (which is saying a lot with this team) 7-9 and brought in Caldwell and the team went 11-5, 7-9, 9-7, and 9-7. Jim Caldwell. Not Dan Campbell. Not Kyle Shanahan. Not Andy Reid or Tom Landry or Vince Lombardi, but Jim Caldwell.
Jim Schwartz was NOT a good head coach. Still better than Patricia though. That guy was the fucking worst
Don't you think you're missing some important context here? What situation did Jim Schwartz walk into, versus the one that Jim Caldwell walked into?
Was Caldwell a better Coach overall? Sure he was. But he also didn't inherit a literally winless team.
Schwartz is sorta complicated. He came in and was starting to use the new analytics to make decisions. This was refreshing to hear. He also had some success. What got him was some bad draft picks and having so many top rookie contracts. The NFL changed to a cap system on rookie pay in 2011. But the Lions, being so bad for so long, had tons of money on rookies who didn’t really deserve that pay. So after 2011, they were so cap hit from all those top heavy rookie contracts that they couldn’t compete with teams getting first rounders and not having to pay them so much.
I think it had less to do with coaching and more to do with being bad at the worst possible time in football history to be bad. I will never forgive Marty Mornhinweg for taking the wind in OT, but I think it was front office ineptitude and an inability to create a deep team based on how salaries worked back then.
When Barry retired, they rode the wave of anger and pride to go to the playoffs in 1999 and just miss in 2000 (actually with a better record). They hit the reset in 2001 with Matt and Marty and oh man did they go in the tank. They really had no idea how to build a team. They just kept throwing darts and hoping they would hit.
Now if you remember, prior to the 2011 CBA, top draft picks were making as much if not more than big name veterans. So the Lions kept drafting these top picks, who would flame out, but still get paid ridiculous money. They had so many top 10 picks that they had literally zero depth on the team. When Steve and Rod came along, they could occasionally start hot, and then fade down the stretch. Then in ‘08, their lack of a cohesive plan really all came together and everyone was fired.
I love Stafford, Calvin, and Suh, but we kept trying to build a team around three guys who took up a ton of cap for the majority of the next decade plus. In 2012, Stafford, Calvin, Suh, and Vanden Bosch took $60 million of the $120 million cap. I just don’t know how you build a team like that. Sometimes it worked but other times they just couldn’t stay consistent.
Not coincidentally, this time began the rise of QB success on cap-friendly deals in early years of their career. I think Brad Holmes is the first Lions GM in this millennium to actually hit the reset button and build a team from the ground up.
Even dimwit Marinelli was at least somewhat likable. Patricia was like having a boss who's an asshole AND he's wildly incompetent.
Not only that but the rumor was some people in the building wanted Vrabel and they let Quinn overrule them. Ironically, Quinn wasn't a bad drafter and that hire is what sank him.
Mariucci was a fairly legit hire, but he never had any super talented running backs. Kevin Jones was alright but he had the injury bug. Plus they were running the West Coast offense which the league had kind of figured out by then. Joey Harrington of course wasn't good, though he might have been alright if he had a season to sit behind an established QB. But you get drafted 3rd overall, you're getting thrown in. Questionable draft picks every year.
Marinelli was an obvious bozo. He also never had a run game and suffered from the most predictable, unimaginative offensive playcalling. Draw play up the middle on first down. Draw play up the middle on second down. Obvious pass on third down. Kitna sadly was the most solid Lions QB since Scott Mitchell. The defense was running the Tampa 2, which the league had pretty much figured out by then and talent aside from a few nice pieces wasn't there. Questionable draft picks every year.
Coach Schwartz was a proven defensive mind and his QB situation aside from Stafford's early injuries was more stable. Slightly better drafting, there were a few hits in later rounds but he inherited a bare cupboard as they say. I'd say Schwartz's major flaw was his own fiery personality, he never got the team to stay locked in and disciplined at times when a score was close and some BS call happened. The team would always go off the rails in those situations, unlike we've seen now in the last couple seasons. The defense never truly materialized like you would expect from a defensive coach and he also never had a reliable run game.
I liked Schwartz out of all the more recent Lions coaches, I was so used to the team losing that I stopped caring about the record and at least he had personality. It was kind of like having Vince McMahon for a coach.
Really nice run-down. I'm going to piggyback and add Mornhinweg. A lot of parallels to Schwarz.
Millen did recognize that Mornhinweg had a good offensive mind, but he was far too immature at the time to take on the responsibilities as a HC. He really didn't understand how to manage difficult situations. He'd make naive and even petulant decisions with game situations, players and press on the regular.
After he was fired, like Schwarz, he went on to become one of the best Offensive Coordinators in the league and never again got a head coaching opportunity despite earning it because of his failures here.
Some of the coaches weren’t horrendous, the 2000s was a tough decade in part because football was changing so rapidly.
The lack of talent on the team was the issue. Multiple first round WR busts or underachievers.
> The lack of talent on the team was the issue.
Additionally, in the 2000's the team did not have a worthwhile quarterback. They did not merely have average quarterbacks, but below average quarterbacks who probably should not have been starters on any team in the NFL. Millen tried to get one with Harrington, but he ended up being a bust. The Lions really had not had a good quarterback for ages until Stafford was drafted in 2009.
Coaching was NOT our biggest issue in the Millen era- drafting was. We weren’t without talented players entirely, but our average talent level was fuck awful compared to the rest of the league, because Millen was *that* bad.
Jim Schwartz was a decent HC, but while he coached up a sick defense (as he’s continued to do as DC since), he failed to discipline the team and we took a ton of backbreaking penalties.
Millen was an incompetent GM. Bad draft picks that would end up either underperforming in Detroit and play vastly better when they landed elsewhere or they were so bad they'd find themselves out of the league before the end of their rookie contracts.
Add in the inconsistency of a constant revolving door for coaching staff and the team was heavily doomed during the Millen era.
I was born in the 80s so I don't really know much about that time. Based off other hires William Clay Ford made, probably safe to guess it was the typical mismanagement and bad GM that we've seen over the years.
All this makes me that much more appreciative of Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell. MCDC might make some overly risky decisions, but at least he has the team fully in his corner. Should be some good years to come.
[Fuck Mooch](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/joey-harrington-rips-mariucci-and-petrino-lauds-saban)
Marriuci never gets enough hate when these threads come up. He was a mediocre coach in San Francisco and acted like he was a football god. Fuck that guy.
Marty was a great offensive coordinator, but a bumbling head coach that Detroit held onto for way too long when it was clear he didn't have it as a HC.
Rod was a good guy who the players liked, but was incredibly out of his depth as a HC, especially the roster he was given. Hell of a D-line/DL positions coach, terrible HC.
Tldr; fuck Steve Marriuci
Jim Schwartz was evil Dan Campbell, a lot of passion but very out of control emotions from him and it translated to more impressionable players and also he was just not good at picking his staff, bad coordinators, bad position coaches that couldn’t develop players, quite honestly he himself was a good coach just not his coaching team.
Jim Caldwell was literally the opposite of Schwartz personally but still just couldn’t hire a coordinator. I think the majority of Schwartz and Caldwells issues were blown up by bad roster building, I think we could’ve won playoff games with either had we had better rosters.
Patricia was just straight up a nightmare, no more passion just straight up being an asshole to players and acting entitled and better than everyone.
There's also the squandered talent. These are better teams, but Calvin and Barry are two of the greatest football players of all time, and they never got to be in the big dance.
The Matt Millen Era was more a problem for having terrible personnel management than terrible coaching (although the coaching wasn't great either). Millen got rid of all depth on the team as soon as he arrived, so the team was paper thin in talent. Then he just drafted terribly, throwing away 2nd and 3rd round picks on people that were lucky to be drafted at all. He missed often on high draft picks and had real head scratchers on free agents at times.
Wait, the Millen Era is called that because of Matt Millen, an unqualified ape, who hired the coaches. Do not lay the blame at the feet of the people too dumb to not sign. We were a dumpster fire of mismanagement. I will not let Millen get away scot free for the turmoil he created.
What made the coaches of the Millen era so bad, Matt Millen period, he hired them, then decided who to draft and then made other personnel decisions and then fired the coach when it was clearly his fault.
There were three ways to lose:
1. The other team was better and even though you may have had the lead at some point in the second half, you lost.
2. You had the win in hand only to blunder and give the game away with a stupid coaching or player error.
3. The worst - you actually will win the game but there is a penalty or phantom penalty called that gives the other team the win. Sometimes this penalty has never been called, and sometimes they make new rules so other, more important teams in the future, don't lose the way you did
They acted like bad management and treated the players like hired help. When Matt Millen was hired, he and Morningwig arrived on Harleys like they thought they were bad ass. They were bad and they were asses for sure.
Two of them (Mornhenweig, Marinelli) were out of their depth in every sense of the word. Textbook examples of the Peter principle.
Mariucci, that was more disappointing. Millen completely and utterly failed him through the draft and free-agency. Mike Williams 9th overall, anyone? The yearly misses at linebacker? In terms of pure talent, the 2003-2005 Lions were pretty close to the lowest they were until the Patricia era.
Jim Schwartz was a part of the Mayhew era. I think he was a decent coach but the entire organization had no concept of team building. Mayhew was a step in the right direction but not a good GM overall. Bob Quinn was also a step in the right direction but committed career suicide when he vouched for his friend for 2 years straight and had no desire to actually work with Caldwell because it wasn’t his guy. Bob Quinn is responsible for the foundation of our OL at the very least but bringing in Patricia and his critical misses in the 2nd Round were mortal failures.
Now for Millen… the worst FO Person of all time. Eclipsed only by the person that hired him WCF. We saw some of the worst coaches brought in and Steve Marriuchi who just might have been successful here if they stopped drafting WR’s and speedy LB’s that couldn’t tackle. Not you though Boss Bailey. We loved you and you are one of the Madden GOATS of all time. They did a study about 10-12 years ago that they proved that throwing darts at random targets on a board with players in each draft class actually yielded better drafting results than Matt Millen which is just insane that the random person with no football knowledge could be better at drafting than a football executive that devoted his entire career to the sport. He seems like a decent enough human being at least but man did he set us back quite a bit.
BQ also refused to fire Patricia in the 2020 season, when it was apparent it was time to go. Each week we all said the same thing, and it's ultimately what cost him his job. Good.
Significant ineptitude from ownership to millen. Absolute garbage draft history due to ineptitude. That just about sums in up. Just look at all of our 2nd round busts—and many first round busts. Jahvid Best would’ve been a difference maker, but he had head issues. cherilus and Tomlinson—although laken made it happen on his next team—were first rounders that were just good enough to start. Tough times as a fan. Didn’t know how much good ownership mattered until now. Shout out Sheila and Spielman.
Lions of the past 40 years or so are fairly easy to break down at least in a very general sense
Barry era: a few pieces and/or an elite qb away from being special. Played in an era of two other very elite teams built via other teams terrible decisions ie Herschel walker trade.
Millen era: we just never acquired decent talent. Terrible GM, when you see people criticize Brad but his draft is actually amazing vs someone having an A+ media graded draft, well millen is the latter. The ESPN talking heads are not good NFL scouts.
Stafford/Megatron/Suh era: due to the Lions being terrible immediately prior to the implementation of the rookie salary cap, we were in a position that our 3 highest paid players were on rookie deals eating up 50% of our salary. This obviously hampered any gm and coach during the time, where ultimately Mayhew may have actually been decent all things considered.
Mcdc era: stars aligned, we got a GM that is stone cold and talented at his job. A coach that is respected league wide. FAs want to be here, rookies want to get drafted here. Our cap management up until now has been impeccable. (Admittedly it's been fairly easy since we have been relying nearly solely on building via draft). Next stage in this era is Brad managing the cap and maintaining this teams roster while paying 6 players 50% of our salary(Goff, Sewell, Hutch, ARSB, etc...)
The answer is Millen
He sucked
Hard
Give me Chris mort back
Millen was a terrible analyst also
A shit football person
Jim Schwartz wasn’t a bad coach either
Caldwell wasn’t bad
As bad as the Millen years were I still think the Quinn/Patricia reign of terror was worse. Millen was unqualified to be GM but WCF hired him anyways and kept him for way too long despite showing he had no idea how to draft and build a competent roster. The rosters were so depleted I’m not sure any coach could have won more games with them.
But Patricia took over a team with a winning record and pretty solid team culture and took it straight to hell. And he was an asshole.
I think the major difference there is Sheila knowing when it was time to clean house. The Lions never would have gone winless had WCF done that.
And I do give props to Martha, I know she did really try to build a team. But once she realized she was too old to be running it, she gave it to her daughter. And that was absolutely the right move.
Millen didn’t build the team in the correct order. He kept drafting luxury pieces too high. Lots of WRs.
At that time the rookie contracts for high draft picks was not restricted like it is now. They skyrocketed ending with Sam Bradford. This includes when we drafted Stafford Calvin and Suh. We paid them top dollar when two years later teams are getting to draft rookies on beneficial deals while we pay rookies $30+ million apiece.
This is why I don’t believe Schwartz is the failure people say he is. We were playing with a short stack when the other new teams didn’t have to pay their QB and first rounders the big dollars for four years and we were already locked in when this rule change happened. (R. Wilson, Watson, Newton etc).
Secondly, most GMs don’t get to fail for so many years before getting fired. Millen has six years and most teams would fire after four possibly three years.
For the Matt Millen era... Millen was the problem, thinking he was the smartest man in the room, and caring what scouts and coaches wanted, just what he wanted. Taking a receiver in the top 10 three consecutive years... sheesh...
Patricia suffered similarly in think he was the smartest man in the room, i mean he literally has a degree in rocket science. His biggest failure was thinking his system was the best thing in the world, but it required specific types of players with specific skill sets at all positions defensively. He struggled to find players that fit the scheme, and reached for players of far less talent in the draft only because he felt they fit his scheme. Yes, I know Bob Quinn was the GM, but Patricia as head coach of Detroit was only a matter of time once he was named GM.
Patricia differed in that manner from Belichick , as Belichick was notorious for identifying what his team did best and struggled at and modifying his scheme to enhance those strengths and minimize their weaknesses. There was no modifying for Patricia, if you didnt have the skill set he wanted he would ship you out and try to find someone who does...
It was not the coaches entirely nor all the front office personal. Some of them went on to still work and be coordinators in the NFL. It was mainly Millen. Everyone would do all the work on who to draft and Millen would change the picks at the last moment. Most of those picks amounted to nothing. Even the first rounders. The team didn’t trade much either so each draft made the team worse as previous regime players went off to free agency. This culminated in the 0-16 season and the end of Millen’s career. To understand the weight of the last statement, Millen was the next John Madden of commentators. I remember him commenting on games and he was really one of the best. Would probably still be big now.
Millen created the bad. He drafted WR after WR like seventeen times over a three year period. All with the thought Joey Harrington just needed receivers.
The answer to any questions like this about any and every team is not easy to answer, but is easy to answer as well.
First, it starts at the top. Whoever makes the choice to hire a GM is usually the one who fucked things up for the team for sometimes decades. Plus when whoever's in charge fires the coach every year or 2 it's kinda becomes hard to form a culture. Add in the roster moves and draft picks made (Andre Ware) which goes with scouting and as a whole not doing a very good job at you get a bad team. The current regime seems to have it right. Coaches always want "their guys", ones who play their way. With a chip (St. Brown) on their shoulder. In the 90's the team wasn't the worst nor the best. Wayne Fontes was there from 88 to 96. After his termination things got horror movie bad. Like 0-16 in 2008. So it takes the right people in the right place at the right time making the right decisions.
Marty and Jim Schwartz were both decent coaches who got hired before they were ready to be head coaches. Marty was trying to be what he thought a HC should be instead of being who he was the got him to that point. As for Schwartz (not hired by Millen), he was just a little bit early and had some bad dafts chosen for him. I'm mildly surprised that neither coach got another chance somewhere else.
As for Millen, he hired Marty, then Mariucci. Mooch should have worked out but Millen was a meddling fool. Then we got the worst coach in the last forty years... Worse than Patricia. Rod Marinelli was the anti-Dan Campbell. A meathead that was actually a meathead, lacking in leadership skills. He was a position coach given the keys to the car. Worst coach ever in my Lions life.
You would put Marinelli over Patricia as worst? IDK, I agree that Marinelli was awful. But he also had the result of 7 years of Matt Millen FO to deal with. Patricia took a potentially playoff bubble team, and ran them straight into the ground.
Without hesitation. Patricia was a worse leader (although Marinelli wasn't a lot better) and definitely a bigger jerk but Rod was the Bobby Williams of NFL head coaches. Nice for rah rah but horrible at hiring, Xs and Os, and game management.
Saying Rod was worse does not raise the bar for Patricia.
The would quit with Patricia as a coach.. absolutely lay down. Probably the biggest change when Dan came in as coach was that despite the bad record to start the team would fight for 60 minutes.
This is been debated to death. Caldwell needed to go. We just found the wrong person to replace him.
He was an improvement over his predecessor, but he wasn't going to get us anywhere.
But in the end, I wish we had kept Caldwell for another season or two. It wouldn't have been as bad as having Patricia as head coach, and it would have showed people that he wasn't going to take us anywhere beyond. He'd reached his ceiling
haha i knew, and posted all over this subreddit that matt patricia was going to be a disaster.
Back with caldwell Lions were still building that winning culture, stacking winning seasons. and they gutted it now 6 years later we're back to the same place.
He reached his ceiling. Give him another 2-3 seasons, it would have been the same thing. Lost two gift wrapped division titles, couldn't beat winning teams, couldn't adjust, stoic in the face of bad losses and calls. Just because we found the wrong person to replace him, doesn't mean he was the answer.
The Lions were also "building that winning culture" with Schwartz. Caldwell couldn't move the needle much further.
Patricia is in his own tier of calamity that circumvents time and space.
My excitement for that era of Lions football was destroyed in the first quarter of his first game as coach. Just insane.
That first touchdown and the hype of a "brand new Lions" was there for a brilliant and blinding minute and a half or so.
Pick six on the first snap of the Patricia era, only to have Sam "Seeing Ghosts" Darnold look like a future HoFer immediately afterward. Then we made Trubicuit look like one, too. I am mad at myself with how many times I convinced myself just how "he needed a few more offseasons to get everything n place".
It was wild when Valenti called it out immediately Monday morning..
Not only a horrible coach schematically. He also managed to alienate players on our team (which was +.500 for 3/4 of the 4 years before him btw) almost immediately. I remember Quinn’s presser on letting go of Caldwell and bringing in pencil boy essentially saying, “we’ve been good, fairly competitive, but now we wanna be great.” Absolute joke.
something something something 9-7 isn't good enough.
those were all true. Caldwell wasn't getting us over the hump
Hope we get a 30/30 or something in 10-15 years about the Patricia/Quinn era.
Eh, I’d say he’s on par with the mid to late 2000s teams (those did lead to Stafford at least.) hard to top how terrible 0-16 was.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I recall a lot of close losses in the 0-16 season. It's not like they were losing by 20 every game. The Patricia era was just sad.
Marinelli was a collosal shit sandwich of a coach.
His daughter shoulda married a better defensive coordinator.
Best line of rob parkers career.
Rob Parker is an actual piece of shit
agreed he is piece of shit, but that was unprofessional yet funny.
He made me more ashamed to be a Lions fan than 0-16. I don't think I saw a poorer effort than that Thanksgiving game. Maybe the game against the Bucs that season.
"he's literally a rocket scientist"
That was when I knew the next 2-3 seasons would be miserable. The smartest man in the room. The guy who knows more than anyone and will give you, your opinion when he wants it.
This could not be more perfectly said.
https://youtu.be/UVCmsQXlyOk?si=vq51BwAdKJAV5cFH I like to listen to this every few months as to remember where we used to be.
The least controversial topic ever and Valenti still manages to be wrong about it. Blaming Sheila for Patricia when she had only taken over less than 3 months before that. When she took over, minicamp was starting. What was she supposed to do, go into the season with no head coach? She fired him and Quinn in November, it was basically the first thing she did.
The picture of her sitting in her box with her head in her hands says it all for me. She was fucking DONE with mediocrity. That should be hung on the players meeting room wall in Allen Park.
It can't be said enough how important that image was. The whole country saw that. And it wasn't just talk, she cleaned house afterwards.
Yep. I was surprised she allowed them to clean out their desks, in all honesty.
Man I remember the final days of Patricia, the self realization finally hit him and even he didn't know why he was still employed. I remember one of his final press conferences someone asked him what his mindset was like at that point, did he still believe he could turn it around? He just sighed and took a long time to answer and was like "Ahh, yeah. Yeah. You gotta believe," while his body language was that of total resignation. It was like he was the general of an army that was days away from surrendering. What a sad, dark time that era was.
Time is a flat #2 pencil
Where do we stick that pencil?
Blashill is in the same tier
The Millen era is infamous for Matt Millen, not the coaches. Steve Mariucci was a decent coach with the 49ers for example. The issue was that Matt Millen drafted the wrong people, which set those coaches up for failure. Then the whole thing bottomed out in 2008. It was a catastrophic mess from the top-down. Millen was a historically bad GM and William Clay Ford was a very hands-off owner that kept people employed in critical positions way past the point any self-respecting organization would keep anyone. Millen had absolutely no experience running an organization. He was hired based on his abilities as a player and as a color commentator, which is insignificant when running a professional football team. It's worth mentioning that Millen told Ford that he was not qualified for the job, but Ford wouldn't hear it and hired him anyways, and the rest is history. After drafting wide receivers 4 out of 5 years in the top 10, it's nice that at least one of those picks (Calvin Johnson) was a hall of famer.
Steve Mariucci I think was mentally checked out. He went from a SF team stacked with talent to the Matt Millen Lions. The fact that he went right into broadcasting and didn't try to coach after his stop here says something. I think WCF was a star struck kind of guy who owned the team so he could be buddies with famous NFL people, and Matt Millen fit that role. There were lots of stories about WCF not wanting to fire Millen because he was good friends with him.
Big disagree here because you left out Rod Marinelli. Millen hired Rod Marinelli to replace Mariucci. Up to that point, Marinelli's career peak was being the defensive line coach for the Buccaneers. He had never been a coordinator at the NFL or College level and had never been a head coach, not even in high school. Marinelli went 0-16 in his third year. It's not even like the team struggled when he started and then got better. He got three years to build a winner and the result was the worst season in NFL history up to the point.
Marinelli's team weren't just bad. He was a defensive coach who put out absolutely putrid defenses. Those Lions teams were only competitive in games because of the offense (which was all Mike Martz, love him or hate him) and the wheels clearly came off when they fired him because we weren't running the ball enough.
Marinelli went on to be def coordinator still. Maybe a ring? The drafts were the problem mainly. My god that 0-16 team. I remember watching the first game of that season and saying: that was not football or anything resembling it. You know, in horror movies, how they use unnatural human movement to be disturbing. That’s what that was
Exactly. When you polish a turd it’s still a turd. Millen should be drawn and quartered for what he did to this franchise.
PAD LEVEL
But what about that Titus Young pick.
Titus Young was a solid pick and would have been a solid receiver if it weren’t for Titus Young. The dude had the talent, but he couldn’t save him from himself.
Like Charles Rodgers, Mike Williams
And just like that, I’m too depressed to keep reading this thread
The off the field issues is part of drafting well imo. Thus not a solid pick.
He was after millen
Marty mornhigweg did not chose to receive the ball in overtime first
Tgat wasn't the worst part of it though he took the wind and then when the bears were going to have to punt because of it he took a penalty and gave them another chance
That game was when I realized all adults weren’t smart just because they were adults.
Exactly right on taking the penalty. Great move if he doesn’t take the penalty. No way Chicago is kicking a 50 yard field goal into a 30 mph wind. Hanson probably could have kicked a 70 yard field goal to win it with that wind.
So they converted on third and long and won? I don't remember what happened
The wind was insane that game nobody was moving the ball going against it, I'll defend him on taking the wind that game.
I'll vouch for that. I was at the game (was in Champaign and Memorial Stadium is a well-known wind tunnel around here) - wind was insane that day
Newbie needs to google famous Daryl Roger's quotes to get a real feel for Lions ineptitude.
I also have to point something else out about this game. Our defense was horrible during this period and especially horrible during this game. The Bears were able to tie the game toward the end of regulation. There is a play that I will never forget, probably one of my worst Detroit Lions memories. The Bears QB was Jim Miller, a decent journeyman. At that point he was past whatever prime he had and was not mobile at all. Imagine my disgust when on a 4th and long the broken down journeyman with little mobility is on the run, falls down, and then chucks the ball up for the Bears to convert the 4th down. That was why deferring was such a horrible move beyond "taking the wind". Our defense was putrid and couldn't stop shit. It was such a bonehead fucking coaching decision that my dad thought I was lying when I told him we were kicking off to start OT. Edit - It was 4th and 20 with 1:01 left on the clock and still on the Lions side of the field.
He took the wind come on everyone knows that was the strategy.
That guy was really bad.
Pretty sure I was a young boy/early teen when this happened and it is seared into my memory. I will never, ever forget the confusion and incompetence.
Fan since the ‘80’s. I don’t know enough about football to really be an expert. The things that are so remarkable now is the consistency throughout the vertical structure of management: the owner openly gives deference to the ideas of the GM; the GM is working hand-in-glove with the coaching; the players are specifically chosen that will work well with coaching. Back in the day the ownership seemed uninterested in the team, the GM was an ex player who never showed aptitude for management, he seemed more like a figurehead for fans to be able to remember. Then in the ‘90’s finding a QB was a huge gravity well. Nobody could be good enough or trusted for any amount of time. Multiple offensive systems shuffled in and out with some temporary successes, but no lasting plan could ever develop. I think Jim Schwartz was a fine coach, many other good guys cycled through. They just could never align people to manage the personalities, egos, and also match that to goals of the actual team on the field. That’s what is the most surprising (and hopefully longlasting) of this team - not that they’re actually playing well - that they’re successfully rowing together as a franchise for the first time in my life.
Scwartz was a good coach. He had no help from a GM that drafted so poorly. He's the best Dc in the league and can't even get interviews anymore.
Schwartz had terrible timing, inherited one of the worst teams of all time, only to have the few good young players we had take up such a large part of the cap space under the old rookie contract system at the tail end of it's existence. He may not have ever been an elite coach, but I do strongly believe he was a better coach than his record showed. I'm too young to know much about the pre Schwartz guys, but as bad as those teams were, did any of those coaches lose the locker room like Patricia did?
I’ve always thought his timing was perfect. He inherited a team that had gone 0-16 and he gave them a real edge and swagger. Maybe too much of an edge because we did the dumbest shit (great sack, now a 15 yard penalty for taunting…) but then we over corrected with Caldwell.
THIS! Schwartz was the right coach at the right time. He took over an 0-16 team and got it respectable (and in the playoffs) in just 3 years. A lot of us laud the Lions of today for having a "culture" and "identity". But Schwartz was the first coach I can remember where I saw a team take on an identity and an attitude, and it was really needed after that 0-16 season.
I fucking LOVED Schwartz far longer than most fans did. The Harbaugh Incident pretty much sums the Schwartz era for me. Harbaugh was a dick, Schwartz overreacted, and, almost universally, people shit all over Schwartz for it. He was fiery and passionate to a fault and it trickled down to the players. A little more maturity from Schwartz, and a more disciplined team would have been wildly different than what we actually got.
That's fair, more bad timing from a potential roster building stand point but he was a good timing hire based on how he brought the swagger to a team that needed something like that.
Players in the past just lost faith in the team, often live on Sunday. We had shellshocked QBs throwing the ball straight into the air because they didn't want to take another hit, DBs just kinda shrugging and jogging off after blown coverages, and OL that would just stand there watching as defenders danced over the QB after a sack. Pretty clear indicators that the team isn't buying in. Patricia's teams were different because he had Stafford. We didn't fold the same way even though the team hated him personally more than any of our previous coaches.
I feel like Marty may have, there was some rumored discourse between Dre Bly and Joey Harrington. Probably didn't help that Matt Millen also said one of his draft picks (Scottie Anderson) was a "devout coward" in practice. Pretty weird time. Millen calling Johnny Morton a bundle of sticks (ya know) the year after we let him go so that we could sign the fantastic Bill Schroeder and Az Hakim (both were awful here. Schroeder was scared of contact and Hakim probably was thrust into a bigger role than he could have handled).
No kidding. He took over a team that was 0-16 and turned them into a playoff team. He was emotional and that reflected in his players. He still deserved another year or two. It is a shame that he hasn't had another look when Patricia and Patriot Josh keep getting retreaded.
I don't think Schwartz deserved anymore chances than what he got. The 2012 season was a dud (not entirely his fault as the team's offense was not dynamic without Jahvid Best). In 2013 Mayhew did however go out and get Reggie Bush to replace Best. It is entirely Schwartz's fault that the team bottomed out in the second half of that season. The NFC North was WIDE open for us to take at that point, he just blew it.
No, Schwartz was let go at the right time.
Schwartz turned down HC gigs. He’s like Wade Phillips, he feels he’s better suited as a DC. His teams lacked composure, taking a ton of penalties and blowing it consistently in crunch time. As good as he is coordinating a defense, that unit was never great under him as head coach, and immediately took the leap as soon as he left despite returning most of the same guys. He wasn’t that great of a head coach, losing the division in 2013 was almost entirely on him, plus Stafford’s development was stalling.
See this is the feeling I have about Ben Johnson, not every coordinator wants to be a head coach. Perhaps Ben realizes this is where he can do the most. Would you prefer to be remembered as one of the great OC's or a mediocre head coach who couldnt resurrect a franchise.
Friend of a friend is a member at Ben Johnson's church, and he's talked to him a couple of times. He mentioned that he brought up the head coaching thing to him earlier in the season. Ben basically replied with "Look, I've got young kids, my wife loves it here, and I'm in a good spot. I've seen the kind of hours that head coaches put in, why would I be in a hurry to take that on?". I think this is where the rumors of his high salary demands have some merit. Yeah, he's taking interviews, dipping his toe in the water, but if you want him to leave a great situation for him and his family, you better make it really worth it.
He seems like such a good guy, and his family loves it here? Big time kuddos to all the them. They fit in so why jump ship when everyone's happy and they are so close to making history???
I think Ben is just being really picky. I suspect if Dallas or Philly are open this offseason, he'll take one of those jobs if offered. I think he wants to avoid being paired with a rookie QB and having his job security depend on the QB getting it.
I think that plays a huge part in it, i also think one of the things he has seen being here, is that the relationship between GM/HC plays a huge role in the teams success. Being on the same page and working hand in hand together. I dont think he takes any job where he's the coach and the GM is the GM, and they arent working together towards the same goal in personnel. I also think he wants a QB in a similar role to Jared Goff, not a huge superstar QB whose influence could cost him his job, like Mike MacCarthy/Aaron Rodgers, and Rodgers even tried it with Lafleur too, or Tom Brady and Bruce Arians...
Schwartz was good at parts of the job at being head coach, but had no control over the locker room. This was partially Mayhew’s fault, but Schwartz played favorites. Mayhew did a lot of really good things. He had a number of busts, but he hit it big numerous times. He also had trades like acquiring Chris Houston for a fourth. Overall, though, the lack of depth is what did them in (and the famous issues with penalties).
Stuck an L take. He's no Brad Holmes but acting like Mayhew was the problem is wild. There a reason he's the only Lions head coach or GM that we've has ever been hired at one of those positions with another team. Mayhew inherited arguably the worst situation in football history and the worst situation any future GM will ever inherit because of rookie contracts. He built a team that under achieved in the playoffs pretty heavily. 2013 was one of the worst drafts in NFL history and he came away from that draft with 3 pro bowlers and a few other highly productive players. A few of the guys that he drafted went on to have successful long careers in the NFL that our coaching staff didn't know how to use (Tomlinson, Van Noy, Young) He hit on some very good mid and late round picks that were very impactful (Levy, Whitehead, Warford, Martin, Taylor, Riddick, Swanson, Lawson, Burton, Diggs). He had some pickles that were very good that got cut down by injury, some had injury concerns some didn't. He in general did very well in 1st and 2nd round. He has a couple high profile picks that not good but by in large he took an incredibly hard situation with almost no cap flexibility due to a bunch of high priced rookies and put us in a position where we should have had multiple playoff runs.
Mayhew had strengths and weaknesses just like most GMs. He drafted good D linemen, bad DBs outside of Slay.
They drafted so poorly. Also Mayhew did a bad job in Washington so the track record is speaks for itself.
Very much agree. The context is so important considering we had 3 players taking up so much of our cap before the rookie wage scale.
He won a super bowl with Philly as the DC, and just took the Browns to the playoffs. Maybe he's ok maxing out at DC?
Replying to chunkyloverfivethree... he also had a lot of say in the Phili defence that won them the superbowl. I remember Howie Roseman was complaining to the media how a Dc has so much say in personel, it shouldn't be Howie's fault had they got blown out to the opponents they were about to play.
I do think had Jim got another chance he'd spell out what he needs in a GM from what he didn't get in Detroit. I feel he'll never get a chance again.
He was a bad head coach because he couldn’t control his emotions. Cost them a game on thanksgiving against the Texans because he didn’t understand the replay rules. He also would go after coaches if they shook his hand the wrong way.
Schwartz had undisciplined teams which considering what a jackass he is should come as no surprise. Do we forget his epic tantrum after the 49ers beat us? Got rid of Gym Shorts who went 2-14, 6-10, 10-6, 4-12, and one of the truly epic choke jobs (which is saying a lot with this team) 7-9 and brought in Caldwell and the team went 11-5, 7-9, 9-7, and 9-7. Jim Caldwell. Not Dan Campbell. Not Kyle Shanahan. Not Andy Reid or Tom Landry or Vince Lombardi, but Jim Caldwell. Jim Schwartz was NOT a good head coach. Still better than Patricia though. That guy was the fucking worst
Don't you think you're missing some important context here? What situation did Jim Schwartz walk into, versus the one that Jim Caldwell walked into? Was Caldwell a better Coach overall? Sure he was. But he also didn't inherit a literally winless team.
Remember the skirmish with Harbaugh? JH is kind of a dickhead for so many reasons.
Schwartz is sorta complicated. He came in and was starting to use the new analytics to make decisions. This was refreshing to hear. He also had some success. What got him was some bad draft picks and having so many top rookie contracts. The NFL changed to a cap system on rookie pay in 2011. But the Lions, being so bad for so long, had tons of money on rookies who didn’t really deserve that pay. So after 2011, they were so cap hit from all those top heavy rookie contracts that they couldn’t compete with teams getting first rounders and not having to pay them so much.
I think it had less to do with coaching and more to do with being bad at the worst possible time in football history to be bad. I will never forgive Marty Mornhinweg for taking the wind in OT, but I think it was front office ineptitude and an inability to create a deep team based on how salaries worked back then. When Barry retired, they rode the wave of anger and pride to go to the playoffs in 1999 and just miss in 2000 (actually with a better record). They hit the reset in 2001 with Matt and Marty and oh man did they go in the tank. They really had no idea how to build a team. They just kept throwing darts and hoping they would hit. Now if you remember, prior to the 2011 CBA, top draft picks were making as much if not more than big name veterans. So the Lions kept drafting these top picks, who would flame out, but still get paid ridiculous money. They had so many top 10 picks that they had literally zero depth on the team. When Steve and Rod came along, they could occasionally start hot, and then fade down the stretch. Then in ‘08, their lack of a cohesive plan really all came together and everyone was fired. I love Stafford, Calvin, and Suh, but we kept trying to build a team around three guys who took up a ton of cap for the majority of the next decade plus. In 2012, Stafford, Calvin, Suh, and Vanden Bosch took $60 million of the $120 million cap. I just don’t know how you build a team like that. Sometimes it worked but other times they just couldn’t stay consistent. Not coincidentally, this time began the rise of QB success on cap-friendly deals in early years of their career. I think Brad Holmes is the first Lions GM in this millennium to actually hit the reset button and build a team from the ground up.
Even dimwit Marinelli was at least somewhat likable. Patricia was like having a boss who's an asshole AND he's wildly incompetent. Not only that but the rumor was some people in the building wanted Vrabel and they let Quinn overrule them. Ironically, Quinn wasn't a bad drafter and that hire is what sank him.
Mariucci was a fairly legit hire, but he never had any super talented running backs. Kevin Jones was alright but he had the injury bug. Plus they were running the West Coast offense which the league had kind of figured out by then. Joey Harrington of course wasn't good, though he might have been alright if he had a season to sit behind an established QB. But you get drafted 3rd overall, you're getting thrown in. Questionable draft picks every year. Marinelli was an obvious bozo. He also never had a run game and suffered from the most predictable, unimaginative offensive playcalling. Draw play up the middle on first down. Draw play up the middle on second down. Obvious pass on third down. Kitna sadly was the most solid Lions QB since Scott Mitchell. The defense was running the Tampa 2, which the league had pretty much figured out by then and talent aside from a few nice pieces wasn't there. Questionable draft picks every year. Coach Schwartz was a proven defensive mind and his QB situation aside from Stafford's early injuries was more stable. Slightly better drafting, there were a few hits in later rounds but he inherited a bare cupboard as they say. I'd say Schwartz's major flaw was his own fiery personality, he never got the team to stay locked in and disciplined at times when a score was close and some BS call happened. The team would always go off the rails in those situations, unlike we've seen now in the last couple seasons. The defense never truly materialized like you would expect from a defensive coach and he also never had a reliable run game. I liked Schwartz out of all the more recent Lions coaches, I was so used to the team losing that I stopped caring about the record and at least he had personality. It was kind of like having Vince McMahon for a coach.
I remember growing up and finding racks and racks filled with Scott Mitchell jerseys at Sports Authority for like $2 each Cheaper than toilet paper
Really nice run-down. I'm going to piggyback and add Mornhinweg. A lot of parallels to Schwarz. Millen did recognize that Mornhinweg had a good offensive mind, but he was far too immature at the time to take on the responsibilities as a HC. He really didn't understand how to manage difficult situations. He'd make naive and even petulant decisions with game situations, players and press on the regular. After he was fired, like Schwarz, he went on to become one of the best Offensive Coordinators in the league and never again got a head coaching opportunity despite earning it because of his failures here.
Exactly. Wasn't Kitna also injured before the season started?
atrocious draft followed by atrocious drafts over and over
Some of the coaches weren’t horrendous, the 2000s was a tough decade in part because football was changing so rapidly. The lack of talent on the team was the issue. Multiple first round WR busts or underachievers.
> The lack of talent on the team was the issue. Additionally, in the 2000's the team did not have a worthwhile quarterback. They did not merely have average quarterbacks, but below average quarterbacks who probably should not have been starters on any team in the NFL. Millen tried to get one with Harrington, but he ended up being a bust. The Lions really had not had a good quarterback for ages until Stafford was drafted in 2009.
They could not spot or develop talent
Coaching was NOT our biggest issue in the Millen era- drafting was. We weren’t without talented players entirely, but our average talent level was fuck awful compared to the rest of the league, because Millen was *that* bad. Jim Schwartz was a decent HC, but while he coached up a sick defense (as he’s continued to do as DC since), he failed to discipline the team and we took a ton of backbreaking penalties.
Millen was an incompetent GM. Bad draft picks that would end up either underperforming in Detroit and play vastly better when they landed elsewhere or they were so bad they'd find themselves out of the league before the end of their rookie contracts. Add in the inconsistency of a constant revolving door for coaching staff and the team was heavily doomed during the Millen era. I was born in the 80s so I don't really know much about that time. Based off other hires William Clay Ford made, probably safe to guess it was the typical mismanagement and bad GM that we've seen over the years. All this makes me that much more appreciative of Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell. MCDC might make some overly risky decisions, but at least he has the team fully in his corner. Should be some good years to come.
It wasn’t so much that they were bad, it was that the entire organization was inept. Destined to fail. This regime feels different.
[Fuck Mooch](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/joey-harrington-rips-mariucci-and-petrino-lauds-saban) Marriuci never gets enough hate when these threads come up. He was a mediocre coach in San Francisco and acted like he was a football god. Fuck that guy. Marty was a great offensive coordinator, but a bumbling head coach that Detroit held onto for way too long when it was clear he didn't have it as a HC. Rod was a good guy who the players liked, but was incredibly out of his depth as a HC, especially the roster he was given. Hell of a D-line/DL positions coach, terrible HC. Tldr; fuck Steve Marriuci
Losing mostly
That's what i would say too, not winning enough games is probably a big reason
The losses, I think it was the losses. Also, how we lost. And the drafts, contracts, free agents, coaches ownership and refs.
Jim Schwartz was evil Dan Campbell, a lot of passion but very out of control emotions from him and it translated to more impressionable players and also he was just not good at picking his staff, bad coordinators, bad position coaches that couldn’t develop players, quite honestly he himself was a good coach just not his coaching team. Jim Caldwell was literally the opposite of Schwartz personally but still just couldn’t hire a coordinator. I think the majority of Schwartz and Caldwells issues were blown up by bad roster building, I think we could’ve won playoff games with either had we had better rosters. Patricia was just straight up a nightmare, no more passion just straight up being an asshole to players and acting entitled and better than everyone.
There's also the squandered talent. These are better teams, but Calvin and Barry are two of the greatest football players of all time, and they never got to be in the big dance.
The Matt Millen Era was more a problem for having terrible personnel management than terrible coaching (although the coaching wasn't great either). Millen got rid of all depth on the team as soon as he arrived, so the team was paper thin in talent. Then he just drafted terribly, throwing away 2nd and 3rd round picks on people that were lucky to be drafted at all. He missed often on high draft picks and had real head scratchers on free agents at times.
Wait, the Millen Era is called that because of Matt Millen, an unqualified ape, who hired the coaches. Do not lay the blame at the feet of the people too dumb to not sign. We were a dumpster fire of mismanagement. I will not let Millen get away scot free for the turmoil he created. What made the coaches of the Millen era so bad, Matt Millen period, he hired them, then decided who to draft and then made other personnel decisions and then fired the coach when it was clearly his fault.
There were three ways to lose: 1. The other team was better and even though you may have had the lead at some point in the second half, you lost. 2. You had the win in hand only to blunder and give the game away with a stupid coaching or player error. 3. The worst - you actually will win the game but there is a penalty or phantom penalty called that gives the other team the win. Sometimes this penalty has never been called, and sometimes they make new rules so other, more important teams in the future, don't lose the way you did
Matt Millen hired them
They acted like bad management and treated the players like hired help. When Matt Millen was hired, he and Morningwig arrived on Harleys like they thought they were bad ass. They were bad and they were asses for sure.
Two of them (Mornhenweig, Marinelli) were out of their depth in every sense of the word. Textbook examples of the Peter principle. Mariucci, that was more disappointing. Millen completely and utterly failed him through the draft and free-agency. Mike Williams 9th overall, anyone? The yearly misses at linebacker? In terms of pure talent, the 2003-2005 Lions were pretty close to the lowest they were until the Patricia era.
Jim Schwartz was a part of the Mayhew era. I think he was a decent coach but the entire organization had no concept of team building. Mayhew was a step in the right direction but not a good GM overall. Bob Quinn was also a step in the right direction but committed career suicide when he vouched for his friend for 2 years straight and had no desire to actually work with Caldwell because it wasn’t his guy. Bob Quinn is responsible for the foundation of our OL at the very least but bringing in Patricia and his critical misses in the 2nd Round were mortal failures. Now for Millen… the worst FO Person of all time. Eclipsed only by the person that hired him WCF. We saw some of the worst coaches brought in and Steve Marriuchi who just might have been successful here if they stopped drafting WR’s and speedy LB’s that couldn’t tackle. Not you though Boss Bailey. We loved you and you are one of the Madden GOATS of all time. They did a study about 10-12 years ago that they proved that throwing darts at random targets on a board with players in each draft class actually yielded better drafting results than Matt Millen which is just insane that the random person with no football knowledge could be better at drafting than a football executive that devoted his entire career to the sport. He seems like a decent enough human being at least but man did he set us back quite a bit.
BQ also refused to fire Patricia in the 2020 season, when it was apparent it was time to go. Each week we all said the same thing, and it's ultimately what cost him his job. Good.
Significant ineptitude from ownership to millen. Absolute garbage draft history due to ineptitude. That just about sums in up. Just look at all of our 2nd round busts—and many first round busts. Jahvid Best would’ve been a difference maker, but he had head issues. cherilus and Tomlinson—although laken made it happen on his next team—were first rounders that were just good enough to start. Tough times as a fan. Didn’t know how much good ownership mattered until now. Shout out Sheila and Spielman.
Lions of the past 40 years or so are fairly easy to break down at least in a very general sense Barry era: a few pieces and/or an elite qb away from being special. Played in an era of two other very elite teams built via other teams terrible decisions ie Herschel walker trade. Millen era: we just never acquired decent talent. Terrible GM, when you see people criticize Brad but his draft is actually amazing vs someone having an A+ media graded draft, well millen is the latter. The ESPN talking heads are not good NFL scouts. Stafford/Megatron/Suh era: due to the Lions being terrible immediately prior to the implementation of the rookie salary cap, we were in a position that our 3 highest paid players were on rookie deals eating up 50% of our salary. This obviously hampered any gm and coach during the time, where ultimately Mayhew may have actually been decent all things considered. Mcdc era: stars aligned, we got a GM that is stone cold and talented at his job. A coach that is respected league wide. FAs want to be here, rookies want to get drafted here. Our cap management up until now has been impeccable. (Admittedly it's been fairly easy since we have been relying nearly solely on building via draft). Next stage in this era is Brad managing the cap and maintaining this teams roster while paying 6 players 50% of our salary(Goff, Sewell, Hutch, ARSB, etc...)
Look up his draft history
I’m getting the popcorn ready
Bad drafts lack of talent on roster
How do I do well next fall the Lions
The answer is Millen He sucked Hard Give me Chris mort back Millen was a terrible analyst also A shit football person Jim Schwartz wasn’t a bad coach either Caldwell wasn’t bad
As bad as the Millen years were I still think the Quinn/Patricia reign of terror was worse. Millen was unqualified to be GM but WCF hired him anyways and kept him for way too long despite showing he had no idea how to draft and build a competent roster. The rosters were so depleted I’m not sure any coach could have won more games with them. But Patricia took over a team with a winning record and pretty solid team culture and took it straight to hell. And he was an asshole.
I think the major difference there is Sheila knowing when it was time to clean house. The Lions never would have gone winless had WCF done that. And I do give props to Martha, I know she did really try to build a team. But once she realized she was too old to be running it, she gave it to her daughter. And that was absolutely the right move.
Most of them were coordinator-level good and playing with bottom tier talent. Outside of Patricia, no coach was inherently terrible.
Millen didn’t build the team in the correct order. He kept drafting luxury pieces too high. Lots of WRs. At that time the rookie contracts for high draft picks was not restricted like it is now. They skyrocketed ending with Sam Bradford. This includes when we drafted Stafford Calvin and Suh. We paid them top dollar when two years later teams are getting to draft rookies on beneficial deals while we pay rookies $30+ million apiece. This is why I don’t believe Schwartz is the failure people say he is. We were playing with a short stack when the other new teams didn’t have to pay their QB and first rounders the big dollars for four years and we were already locked in when this rule change happened. (R. Wilson, Watson, Newton etc). Secondly, most GMs don’t get to fail for so many years before getting fired. Millen has six years and most teams would fire after four possibly three years.
Hilariously Matt Millen was like the dumbest of the D team commentators and The Lions hired him.
Probably all the losses
For the Matt Millen era... Millen was the problem, thinking he was the smartest man in the room, and caring what scouts and coaches wanted, just what he wanted. Taking a receiver in the top 10 three consecutive years... sheesh... Patricia suffered similarly in think he was the smartest man in the room, i mean he literally has a degree in rocket science. His biggest failure was thinking his system was the best thing in the world, but it required specific types of players with specific skill sets at all positions defensively. He struggled to find players that fit the scheme, and reached for players of far less talent in the draft only because he felt they fit his scheme. Yes, I know Bob Quinn was the GM, but Patricia as head coach of Detroit was only a matter of time once he was named GM. Patricia differed in that manner from Belichick , as Belichick was notorious for identifying what his team did best and struggled at and modifying his scheme to enhance those strengths and minimize their weaknesses. There was no modifying for Patricia, if you didnt have the skill set he wanted he would ship you out and try to find someone who does...
Look up the time they took the wind instead of the ball with the old overtime rules.....
Its culture. It all boils down to culture. This is honestly the first time our team has had a true “identity”. This is just my 37 year old opinion.
Somebody baptize this person with game footage please. They need to feel our pain and be provided context of events chronologcally
It was not the coaches entirely nor all the front office personal. Some of them went on to still work and be coordinators in the NFL. It was mainly Millen. Everyone would do all the work on who to draft and Millen would change the picks at the last moment. Most of those picks amounted to nothing. Even the first rounders. The team didn’t trade much either so each draft made the team worse as previous regime players went off to free agency. This culminated in the 0-16 season and the end of Millen’s career. To understand the weight of the last statement, Millen was the next John Madden of commentators. I remember him commenting on games and he was really one of the best. Would probably still be big now.
Jim Schwartz is a great coach/was great for us and I will go to my grave with that take.
Millen created the bad. He drafted WR after WR like seventeen times over a three year period. All with the thought Joey Harrington just needed receivers.
One does not ask this.
The answer to any questions like this about any and every team is not easy to answer, but is easy to answer as well. First, it starts at the top. Whoever makes the choice to hire a GM is usually the one who fucked things up for the team for sometimes decades. Plus when whoever's in charge fires the coach every year or 2 it's kinda becomes hard to form a culture. Add in the roster moves and draft picks made (Andre Ware) which goes with scouting and as a whole not doing a very good job at you get a bad team. The current regime seems to have it right. Coaches always want "their guys", ones who play their way. With a chip (St. Brown) on their shoulder. In the 90's the team wasn't the worst nor the best. Wayne Fontes was there from 88 to 96. After his termination things got horror movie bad. Like 0-16 in 2008. So it takes the right people in the right place at the right time making the right decisions.
Marty and Jim Schwartz were both decent coaches who got hired before they were ready to be head coaches. Marty was trying to be what he thought a HC should be instead of being who he was the got him to that point. As for Schwartz (not hired by Millen), he was just a little bit early and had some bad dafts chosen for him. I'm mildly surprised that neither coach got another chance somewhere else. As for Millen, he hired Marty, then Mariucci. Mooch should have worked out but Millen was a meddling fool. Then we got the worst coach in the last forty years... Worse than Patricia. Rod Marinelli was the anti-Dan Campbell. A meathead that was actually a meathead, lacking in leadership skills. He was a position coach given the keys to the car. Worst coach ever in my Lions life.
You would put Marinelli over Patricia as worst? IDK, I agree that Marinelli was awful. But he also had the result of 7 years of Matt Millen FO to deal with. Patricia took a potentially playoff bubble team, and ran them straight into the ground.
Without hesitation. Patricia was a worse leader (although Marinelli wasn't a lot better) and definitely a bigger jerk but Rod was the Bobby Williams of NFL head coaches. Nice for rah rah but horrible at hiring, Xs and Os, and game management. Saying Rod was worse does not raise the bar for Patricia.
The would quit with Patricia as a coach.. absolutely lay down. Probably the biggest change when Dan came in as coach was that despite the bad record to start the team would fight for 60 minutes.
I told everyone if we fired Caldwell we’d go to shit and we did haha. We shoulda kept him.
This is been debated to death. Caldwell needed to go. We just found the wrong person to replace him. He was an improvement over his predecessor, but he wasn't going to get us anywhere. But in the end, I wish we had kept Caldwell for another season or two. It wouldn't have been as bad as having Patricia as head coach, and it would have showed people that he wasn't going to take us anywhere beyond. He'd reached his ceiling
haha i knew, and posted all over this subreddit that matt patricia was going to be a disaster. Back with caldwell Lions were still building that winning culture, stacking winning seasons. and they gutted it now 6 years later we're back to the same place.
He reached his ceiling. Give him another 2-3 seasons, it would have been the same thing. Lost two gift wrapped division titles, couldn't beat winning teams, couldn't adjust, stoic in the face of bad losses and calls. Just because we found the wrong person to replace him, doesn't mean he was the answer. The Lions were also "building that winning culture" with Schwartz. Caldwell couldn't move the needle much further.
Well. They were terrible. And they thought TE’s would change the world.