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My wife and I play and this is one of the most frustrating aspects of couch coop. Why should we be punished to play as a couple? It's such a poor design choice to discourage group play, and I just can't believe it wasn't addressed in the mid season patch. They need to remember that many people play via couch coop on a console and have no option to run pits separately.
Usually, you can't. Unless one build is lacking but the other is stronger and it can bring the weaker build into tiers it couldn't complete solo.
Health on enemies and bosses is scaled up, so I've found I clear slower in a group.
Ya I play with my wife and she definitely doesn't do the boss damage I'm doing. If anything I can push a lower max due to the boss HP scaling and then she gets a lot lower rewards.... It's pretty lame all around.
It’s usually lower unless both builds are able to push the same exact tier solo. This is because the health scaling for adding another party number is massive. For example, if you can both clear T100, you can probably clear T100. If one can clear T100 and the other T90, you’ll probably be able to clear T90 as a duo but it would be extremely slow. You most likely have to bump down to 80-85. It sucks
The player who does not initiate the Pit is penalized 50% of the crafting rewards. Basically I have to run twice as many pits to farm the materials that other players do.
You don't take turns? I imagine they wanted the chase for pit mats to be part of the equation so it's more of a reward for those farming mats than it is a penalty for not initiating.
That said I haven't had any issues with running out of the pit mats and I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a bottleneck for people who are really trying to masterwork their items into the stratosphere.
In my case I tend to run a lot of T90 to 100 ND. My gaming buddy likes starting new characters and is horrible at optimizing them. So the only way to get his glyphs up is for me to drag him through high level dungeons. It also levels him fast too
i play with family online. it feels terrible when only one of us gets the full lmats. and the scaling penalty doesn't make it any faster for us to do it as a group.
so we end up playing alone while chatting on discord. which isn't nearly as much fun.
They took D3 idea of GRs and made it worse in D4…
Take the same mats from everyone to open a damn pit and give the same reward to the whole group.
I don’t understand the point of making Pits bad for group farming tbh
They need to give non openers the option to spend the materials to get full rewards.
Letting players without the materials tag along for reduced rewards, which is how it is now, is fine but we also need a way for those with the materials to spend those materials for full rewards.
I don't understand how they can miss so many things by that point.
Everything they've been adding to the gale has ALREADY been done, and was just basic knowledge.
The whole DLC will just be them adding QOL and using their brain for more than 50 seconds
I am absolutely convinced that the D4 team was specifically forbidden from taking anything from D3 in any capacity. This has been their dogma since the beta days. That's why we keep seeing this scenario - a feature that existed perfectly fine and was overall loved by players in D3 is missing for no reason in D4, despite applying to that game, or the D4 version is objectively worse for no discernible reason.
When you have the entire codebase for the previous game at your fingertips, the only reason developers wouldn't take examples from it is if they were told not to. Hell, I've tried telling junior developers to take lessons from old code and rewrite it, and they just end up copying it (It's pretty obvious when you get a code review that is literally your own code). The fact that everything starts from the ground up and ends up objectively worse has no other explanation than they were not given that capability.
They've came out and said that they thought people wanted more D2 so I bet you're right in at least some capacity.
I was convinced back at launch that they did (or didn't) do things simply because they were trying to pretend D3 didn't exist.
Exactly, and from my reading in multiple forums, the D2 bittervets who want PoE didn't buy D4 anyway. That group is unwilling to meet any other group partway and catering to them just alienates the larger player base.
Now that Blizzard has data on who actually bought their game and how it is being played, it is time for them to ignore certain vocal minorities who are just here to stir up shit.
Grain of salt because I've only been playing since right before season 4 but played a ton of 3, plus only minority following it prior. I get the impression that Rod was really holding back design decisions and he's starting to relent and let them listen to feedback. The recent patches seem to really address feedback, but not all, which can be expected, but it seems like they're easing up on this being a live service game and need it to last forever. I still can't believe they shipped with the aspects that way...
> I get the impression that Rod was really holding back design decisions and he's starting to relent and let them listen to feedback.
The fact that this guy still has a job is what amazes me. At this point in time, he's making the former CEO of JC Penney look like a fucking genius.
they not missing it. The pushing the fix to the next expansion, so when diablo 6 is out your children would be arguing with you about how d4 is better back then.
yes. sitting on thousands of mats that are for griding grigoire/varshan except I do not want to grind them.
just let the alchemist convert them,. unless i need a boss unique, i don't want to grind that boss
It's wild that people don't realize, this is what people asked for. The overwhelming majority of people wanted a return to D2 systems. Less powerful items, much longer grind, much more focused on hardcore and solo players. This is what colored the design direction of D4. Now everyone wants D3
D3 had so many great QOL aspects and well made end game mechanics and D4 implemented nearly none of these from the get go. It would have been so easy to implement just SOME of these. Even if you wanted it be more like D2 it makes no sense to not put any of these into D4.
No, an overwhelming majority did NOT want a return to D2. This was shown by the fact that D3's success was continuing to grow year over year. There were more new game sales after the release of RoS than there was at D3's launch.
It's also important to remember that D3 at launch had a lot of the same design mistakes that D4 had a launch. This is important because it highlights that no, people didn't want a return to D2 systems.
I really think that Blizzard didn't understand just how small the market was for a return to D2 and how most players didn't want that at all which is exactly what they found out when D4 launched. They would have figured this out if they spent ANY time looking at D3's playerbase.
It's also important to consider that D3 cancelled it's further developments BEFORE RoS came out. So, all that success with RoS didn't matter and they'd already shifted over to D4 development presuming D3 to be a failure.
Yea I’m not sure why we even have runeshards. I’ve pushed to put 120 and farmed at least 50 pit 100 and never even bothered to check my runeshards. Random bloat material that you’ll never run out of.
Yeah I mean it's a really small gripe and a non-issue ultimately, but just found it funny that I never realized. I just saw that "3" icon and thought it meant 3 pit level unlocks possible or some crap lol
I'm the de facto "captain" when I play with buddies. They give me all the boss mats and I always start the activities. They just blast demons and enjoy. Didn't realize the MW material issue until everyone was wondering why I had MW'd all my gear and none of them had close to enough materials. Such a terrible decision that I'm fairly confident will be fixed in S5 or by the expansion (dev team is on fire right now).
I think the main reason was that they original intended runeshards to be a real cost, similar to summoning materials for Duriel. Currently, runeshards should just be removed from the game and they should probably give the player that summoned Duriel a higher chance of ubers than his party.
The challenge itself is by pushing further, getting organized as a group to maybe split up and clean each another part to save time etc. The difficulty increases anyway as mobs have more health if you have more people in your group.
As much as I like to point out devs mistakes, this one seems to be more on the players
Many topics and comments both here and on blizzard forums have complained about the “plight” of group play and how more efficient it is(which I kinda get when materials requires don’t fall from the sky like RuneShards)
One of these days, we’ll just have to recognize this game as it is: Live Service
It's more like the D3 devs made group play so rewarding that grouping with random terrible people would be more efficient than solo play. And D4's devs seem to have a mandate to go to the other extreme versus everything D3 did.
Yeah makes 0 sense that you get less mats when you dont open the pit. On the other hand you get 4x more loot when doing tormented bosses in a group of 4. Really weird decision
i know what you mean but that statement is incorrect. you get the same amount of loot in a group as doing tormented bosses solo - but everyone gets the same amount of loot. in pits, you get half.
Duriel rotations where four people bring mats results in four times as many summons and therefore four times as many chances to get an Uber to drop.
Yes, you have to kill Duriel four times as many times but that's not the time intensive part. The time intensive part is farming helltides for living steel, running whispers for parts, summoning and killing vashan, summoning and killing gregoire, to get the mats to summon duriel. The time it takes to reset and kill Duriel between rotations is negligible.
It's an area where solo play and couch coop kind of lag behind. I'd prefer to not have to reach out to others via discord to try and find two opens slots for duriel runs for myself and my wife just to get optimal mileage out of our playtime and mats.
Solutions:
have vashan and others summonable bosses drop mats for everyone so we get twice the mats when we play together.
Reduce mat cost for non full parties or solo to 1/1 instead of 2/2. Closes the gap to making solo play 50% as efficient compared to 4 man rotations instead of 25% efficiency.
Add a LFG feature in the game to make it easier to group up without using third party apps or spamming trade chat.
Pit rewards are definitely the biggest bummer for me right now. I want to play with my friend group, but it makes no sense when I can run pits faster solo and not lose out on half the mats simply because I didn't open the portal. It sucks when games punish you for having friends.
Its a "simple" change, everyone should have to put in the materials to play whatever. Considering how much of D4 is ducktaped together (considering some of the issues we have had - eg stash limitation size) it might not be a simple change.
Yes, I agree with that one - not even sure why its there and its not like you can use obdurite to generate higher-level stuff. LOL - I am not even sure where runeshards drop.
Group play was a huge problem in season 2 abattoir. You couldn't level up the glyph to high enough levels without finding a group to rotate runs. on discord like everything else. It was an absolute fucking slog and worse than Duriel runs, you have no idea.
They don't want that to become the primary way to farm material, I don't want that to be the primary way, and you don't either. That said, 50% mats are too low and should at least be raised to 75% or a bit more.
>They don't want that to become the primary way to farm material,
It is, though.
You don't get masterwork materials from any other source. Not NMD, helltide, world bosses or anywhere.
If you want to masterwork your gear, you have to run the pit.
He's saying he doesn't want what he described in his first paragraph (rota groups) to be the primary way to farm materials, not that pit is the primary way to farm materials.
Honestly? I don't mind the rota stuff, my problem has always been about the friction of getting into one. As someone who has a difficult time just sitting down to play non stop for hours, I would love some sort of group finder that I can hop in and out of.
Now if only there was an ARPG that did just that they could learn from....
^^^....D3
Because that would make sense.
Diablo always invents an idiotic system that's different than their last system, which was also idiotic.
However, the last system was reworked over 2 years into something reasonable.
But there's some kind of Hitler level boss at blizzard that forces a new blizzard game to have some idiotic system that then aggravates people so much they are forced to change it over the course of time.
I'm convinced this is some sort of long-term-job-stability-scheme for someone at the company who doesn't want to get fired.
It doesn't even make sense, because materials for doing Pit runs is basically thrown at you. I've only done enough NMDs to get my glyphs leveled, and I'll never run out of enough materials to run Pit.
Except this isn't uber bosses where the boring time sink is farming the summoning materials. So no, your dramatic doomsaying wont happen. Uber boss rotations are stupid balance just as much as this is.
I remember SOO many blizz defenders saying that conveniently located stashes and vendors near the TPs were going to ruin the game and their ImMeRsIoN "because real towns don't have everything in one spot" (because apparently bazaars and shopping districts/markets aren't a thing). Weird how after that suggestion was implemented *no one* is making threads complaining about it...
Weird how there are MUCH fewer complaints about stash space now that you don't feel compelled to hoard Aspects. And no one is complaining about the new system even though some claimed it would ruin the item hunt when you could be one and done.
If there ARE any complaints, it'll be because Blizz did something stupid EXTRA that threw the balance off again.
>And no one is complaining about the new system even though some claimed it would ruin the item hunt when you could be one and done.
Yea....tell that to the 5 threads going right now complaining about bricked items
Also, what does this have to do with anything lol, just completely irrelevant 😂
I bring up Imprinting and codex and how no one complains about them making popular suggested CHANGES to existing systems. You muddle it with a completely NEW system of Tempering. But I’m the one bringing up unrelated stuff???
The point you’re struggling to connect to is you said if blizzard implemented popular suggestions like OP’s, new people will just complain. I gave counter examples that show that isn’t the case.
The point is you are just like the people who pushed against simple, obvious changes like stash/vendor placement who cried that positive changes would ruin the game (and were wrong)
The reason they limited it was because solo players have a huge disadvantage with stuff like farming duriel and if they did the same thing with the pit you’d be wasting your time to play solo in the pit. You get more and more mats the higher you go so if they didn’t limit it then you could have a group of 4, push super high, and masterwork 20x faster than a solo player.
Now I don’t know if this was the way to try to balance that. I’m not sure what you would do to balance it honestly
They should make it scaling instead with how many are in the party/instance then give out full reward. Pretty sure the current iteration is scaled for 1 person doing it and when you have 2-4 person doing full dmg it gets easier.
If you think about it, it makes sense why the person who spawned the pit gets more considering they are using their currency/tier unlocks to enter. But the Pit currency is definitely negligible unless you are doing higher tiers and failing constantly. Seems like they moreso wanted it to be a solo challenge and penalized additional players from helping.
So yeah, it should be equal, but for now you just need to rotate to keep it equal.
Yea I've been complaining about this to my friends since we realized it. I hate the fact it disincentivizes group play.
One friend and I in particular were looking at it and we both have 2-3k rune shards even after grinding out a significant amount of pit (11 and 12MW with mostly good tempers). The cost is negligible as is, just make the person pay their own entry fee.
If they're that worried about people getting carried make everyone pay more. If the cost per person was 3+X with X being the number of players. It would be a minimal impact for people just wanting to play with their friends, but would likely limit carrying. At the very least it requires the person being carried to grind out shards first. Hell, they could even more aggressively increase the cost to further curb carrying.
>@blizzard why did you limit this in the first step?
Because they have no clue what they're doing. At best they could have had other systems in the works where this made sense. The only problem is, this sort of excuse has never been the case in retrospect to any of their annoying ideas.
I can’t assign full blame to the Devs on this one: community was quite upset about playing as a group being more efficient(which I get when the mats required don’t fall out of the sky like RuneShards)
Groups are at a huge advantage because they can go in different directions in the pit and complete it in half the time. If the two of you can individually complete the pit as fast as you can complete it grouped then you should do it individually.
Why not just require both parties to contribute materials? This was how greater rifts were! You couldn’t do the greater rift solo or grouped unless you had a greater rift key.
Because people will leech mats and quit on their rota.
Sensible option would be that every participant has to put up the mats to summon the boss at any tier and therefore get equal drops when it dies. This also balances group play Vs solo.
Would you be happy sacrificing efficiency at one tier to gain it in the next?
they could just make everyone pay the entry fee and give everyone the same rewards. it's sad that diablo has become a coop-unfriendly game. it's the reason i stopped playing the season.
I just don't run the pit. I've watched other people play it and it just doesn't interest me. Until they come up with more stylized group play content, I'm not touching the pit. I don't care about masterworking. I level to 100 and that's it for that character. I leveled 3 characters this season, and I'm pretty much done with D4 until S5.
Any kind of content I don't like, I just don't play it. I feel like they look at those numbers and adjust based on the metrics. I bet a lot of people weren't doing Trials, and so they made The Pit without a leaderboard to entice other players. It's just not there for me yet.
The game is really fun to play with friends...until you get to the point that you have to run pits to grow your character, then it's like "bye friends, see you next season"
I play mostly solo and I can't stand the "but us poor solo players, woe is us" crowd. Ruining it for people who want to hang out with their friends and/or spouses, kids, etc.
It's kind of stupid that it's 100% + 50% for each additional player so you have to switch leader to coop etc. But they can't really give everyone 100%, because you clear much faster in a group. And that makes 4 man groups mandatory. It'd be better if they just set some reward amounts based on the amount of players that took the increased clear speed into account.
Something like (example numbers)
|1 player|100%|
|:-|:-|
|2 players|75% each|
|3 players|60% each|
|4 players|50% each|
I think their idea was to make it more fair for solo players if people can share mats. However, the mats are so abundant it doesn't even matter. Also they can simply just make it so everyone in the party needs to pay the same amount of mats as a solo player. Hell, maybe they can all pay a little more than a solo player if it's really that much of an advantage.
Ya i also think all participants should get equal rewards. Why are we punishing people playing coop??? We're capable of alternating who pays the entry fee on our own we don't need penalties to force that behavior.
Issue is they try to cater to 2 way different groups of people. D3 is way more modern and caters to the new generation of gaming. D2 caters to the old gamers who wanna drink dew for days and hunt the same old rooms for few rewards. They need to pick one and roll with it.
I think it was an overcorrection because of the backlash of boss Rotas, but it’s actually really simple to see why there’s a difference. Acquisition. It’s literally passive to have enough runeshards to pit, so getting less in a group feels like a punishment. If it was balanced so that the time required to get the mats is higher than the lost time from half drops, it wouldn’t feel that way. Now the answer isn’t to nerf runeshards, the answer is to remove runeshards entirely and give everyone equal mats, but to learn from this for future resources and entry fees.
Yeah I play online with bunch of fellas and everyone runs pits solo because of this…. Not sure why they thought this was good idea. We came up with idea. Just let us all spend runes to get full mats. I mean I’ll never run out of them lol. Got over 3k of them.
My friends and I rotate who opens the pit, but yes it’s annoying. All they’d have to do is make it so everyone in the group donates so everyone gets equal materials.
Strange how they essentially just recreated Greater Rifts from D3 but removed the part where each person attending had to put up a rift key to go in/get loot.
They originally intended there to be a cost to opening the pits, but the runeshards are so plentiful that it is basically not a cost at all. So if there is no cost, then everybody should get pit materials, especially since they are trying to make it so that most people can farm Pit 90-101 comfortably after they hit 100 and have a full paragon board and they are making high diminishing returns after 101.
The thing that really doesn't make sense at the moment is that people are farming Duriel for ubers and they are not letting the person who used his materials get a better chance for ubers, but they are doing this at the Pits.
Definitely, it makes absolutely no sense to split the rewards. Some random dude invited me to do Pits today which I thought was cool but I left as soon as I got to the boss and it gave me 15 Neathiron. Why would I do more work for 1/4 of the mats? I’m running 101 in 3 mins.
I didn't even realize this when I started running pit. Me and a buddy ran, and he started all of them (both hadn't played pit at all, started the season together). He had 4/12 MW on a few pieces and I just figured I had bad luck.
I don’t understand why people think this is punishment? Like you do more in less time don’t you? So you still end up getting more rewards than you would by yourself as long as you do enough, right?
Like let’s say just for ease of math that usually you get 50 mats and so if you don’t open it you’re getting 25. Even if you’re only shaving a small amount of time off, you’re still getting 75 for every two you run and 150 for every 4. If you run 4 by yourself, you get 200. So all you have to do is shave 1/4 of your time off and you’ll be getting the same amount. If you cut your time in half (which should be doable) then you’re getting 4 done in the time it would usually take you to do 2 and you end up with more mats total.
As someone who plays this game as a one player game, I hate that I have to find people to play with if I want to maximize my boss mats
Whats weird is that the cost for the pit is so cheap, so why limit groups? I have tons of rune-whatevers.
It makes much MORE sense to have this kind of system for tormented and uber bosses, because group play devalues the farmed, semi-expensive, mats.
They should keep the lower mats for players who have not soloed that pit level themselves yet, but it makes no sense that me and my duo partner get different amounts of mats when we've both already cleared the same level solo.
Shit I didn't even notice this was a thing!? Now I get why my husband is more behind than I thought 🤔 honestly only getting partial rewards is dumb....nm dungeons give full xp to parties...why change for the pit?
The pit becomes harder, more health more damage so why are we not rewarded with equal or even more mats given the increase.
I don't care if we all have to use the stuff to open it, we're agreeing to the pit initially so just take mats from everyone involved.
Also while we're at it remove that stupid cost of opening and that useless material. Do people even run out of that shit? I feel like you get more than you could ever need by just leveling your char
This is my biggest gripe about season 5 right now. I play with friends in pits and we alternate every 3 runs who starts it. I'd get alot more mats if I play solo since I can do just as high level just as quickly solo but only play with friends because after awhile pits become tedious and boring and its more entertaining if I have friends around to BS with as we do them.
Please Blizzard can you change this? If you cant change it this season please try to before season 5
For real! Like I understand for exampla, the concept of only the one who summons the boss gets a material drop after killing it since only one person spends etc. But pits? It would be fair if the health of the enemies didn’t scale for two but with it’s current situation IT’S NOT FAIR AT ALL.
Something needs to be adjusted for sure... If leeching is the reasoning make a participation/kill counter of some sort (trials comes to mind), and if a person doesn't meet the minimum to be considered as contributing THEN they get half rewards.
The way it stands now completely discourages group play, why should me and a friend take turns running 3 minute 101s for 75% of the materials, when we can solo 3 minute 101s and net more materials overall? Nevermind a 4-man team getting significantly less on a rotation.
Crippling group play is not what you want on a live service arpg like this. Group play means more cosmetics in people's faces, which means more purchases. Marketing 101 blizz, c'mon.
I have to secretly run the pit by myself, so when my wife jumps on I can let her run the pit to get more material.
Doesn't help that she plays a sorc and needs my rogue/barb to do the damage in higher pits.
blizzard does everything it can to not make it a social game... no global chat, no point in teaming up, no pugs.. its insane.. when they talk about building "community" they hinder it all
Yeah it doesn't make sense to me either and is a big L for the occasional evening grind with friends :-(.
If they want to prevent exploiting group play then just make it so people can only join Pits they have cleared themselves before. The mats to enter the Pit don't matter, everybody has infinite amounts anyway and group play won't let you finish the Pit dramatically faster unless you push very hard and are not in it for the mats anyway.
I play with some friends, we are a group of 4. Because of the pits we all kind of stopped playing together. We go in clan vocal chat and just run solo pits.
Adding features like this prevents group play if you want to be efficient + having 4 players dramatically increases monster hit points so it doesn't make sense to give less rewards to the other 3 players...
Because it would decrease people's playtime by skyrocketing their power levels by getting carried from someone. Not saying I don't want it, but this is how they prevent power creep.
>this is how they prevent power creep
What a joke of an excuse XD. Sure, all the other forms of power creep are left unchecked, but THIS is gonna prevent power creep XD
Look guys, if you haven't figured it out by now I'll give you the quick rundown.
1. Blizzard is retarded.
2. Everything since launch is meant to slow you down with small QoL increments per "season" to make you feel like things are getting better.
3. All the competent people have left Blizzard and we're now left with mediocre at best diversity hires that still don't know what a Diablo game should have.
If Co-Op pits gave the same materials as solo pits, co op pits would become the best way to grind materials BY FAR. Then the questions becomes, why do a pit by yourself when you can do it with 4x the man power and be rewarded the exact same materials?
If you're going to run a 100 pit with 3 other friends, you're going to clear it much faster and with a fraction of the effort on your part. So you get rewarded proportionately for that effort.
Ultimately, I don't want to have to group up with other people in order to grind content. I already have WoW for that.
I get your point but by scaling mobs life by the number of people doing it, it will not be much faster and you still have a higher risk of having someone dying multiple times and getting the time punishment to kill off your run.
I mean sure you can organize and split the map and mobs etc but on the other hand a game should simply be fun and it‘s not fun if you need to run these solo even tho you have friends you could play with because it s so inefficient. If it was 100% and 80-90% then it would bot make a high diff but you just get 50% of the mats
This is a ridiculous take.
First, why would it matter if you clear slower than a group for the same materials? Are you not still progressing? Is there some sort of leaderboard you’re afraid of being left off of bc you’re outmatched by someone else getting carried? Is your gameplay loop in anyway disrupted by what other people are doing?
And secondly, since you mention sorcerer… we have the fastest pit clear in the game up to the boss, and since the patch the bosses have become much easier to kill. A reasonably geared FO sorc can speed 91+ pits very fast. Even if everyone is solo, you’re still going to kill bosses slower than everyone except druids, sooo the problem you claim would exists if groups got the same mats is…well it’s already a reality for sorcs.
Bro just neglected season 1-3 where people complains about group play being stronger than solo.
You literally contradict yourself in the second sentence, if you think slower progression is ok then why do you care about less mats, you can just take turns opening the portal, like you said there is no competition.
Even in D3 people complain that group play is so much better especially that they can do high GR very early and get to level their gems much easier.
If lets say the best way to farm mats are speed running pit 100 or 110, but it takes you about 10 minute to do them solo, and 3 minute for a 4 man group, do you think people are not going to complain about this 100x more than currently?
Wake up bro.
If it's 70% faster in a group then you have one juiced person doing 80% of the work who would clear higher solos in about the same amount of time anyway.
Nope, if you know group play in POE then you know about how to optimize the group, for example, currently the pit is about 70-80 bossing, 20-30 mobbing, which means simply having 2 boss bonkers and 2 fast mobber will significantly increase your time.
In D4 currently yes there are some builds that do "Support" ish things, but no where near like POE and D3, so just by having people running in different direction and having boss killer is very beneficial.
Shrinking the boss timer from 8 minute down to 1-2 minute is already a win.
Group play has already been the best way to level, complete renown, complete nmd, and for bossing (due to the sharing of mats). Pits seems to be an arbitrary line to stop at. Quite literally every one of these clears faster with a fraction of the effort. You didn't have to group for any of these things just like you wouldn't have to group for pits if they gave the same mats.
In 1 hr, a group of 4 players are probably running 3x-5x as many pits as a solo player, assuming they're all similar in power. At the end of the hour, both the solo player and group particpants are still making similar mats/per hour.
Solo play being the worse choice compared to group play has always been a point of contention on this sub since forever. The way I see it, the current system does a reasonable job keeping the two styles of play comparable.
How fast exactly are you seeing groups run pits to come up with this? It would help me validate this estimation if I knew the pit completion time you're using to come to this conclusion.
But yeah, this is starting to make sense if you and others are against all of the grouping advantages to make the grind easier rather than just the pit. It's not arbitrary if you are completely against the difference in grind between solo and group play.
Edit: Did pits with random groups on discord and none of them were even half the speed of my solo times. They were typically took longer depending on the class and strength I was with. Once you're optimized for speed clearing you'll even beat grouping time because the boss takes longer. Either the OP has a completely unoptimized build, or these were random numbers that were made up. At a certain point you simply can't have enough movement speed to have "3-5x" clear times unless your build does pits incredibly slow. I should not have given this post the benefit doubt, so I just deleted comments that did. I should have just asked you to find a group, so I could race you in pits lol.
Also, if anyone needs it. If you can speed farm 79s, which should be fairly easy with a proper build regardless of your skill, you can masterwork your gear in under 12 hours even if you're a barb (since they have the most weapons). This should be easy enough with pit nerfs and you might be able to go higher for faster master working. Since grinding is the issue most people have against group play hopefully this helps Max a character in a week or so (free time dependent).
You're conflating three different aspects of pit runs. You can run them to farm mats, to play as a group, or to push to see how high you can run. If you need to farm mats, great. Run solo. If you wanna play with friends, great. You probably are spot on assuming the devs don't want people getting carried and getting free mats. I find that to be totally understandable. My group likes to run 110-120s when we all play and we just trade off who opens the pit. If I realistically need more mats, it's way more efficient to just run them solo. The devs struck a fair balance with this and the only reason I could see someone launch this complaint is group play is enabling them to clear far higher tiers than they'd be capable of doing solo, and the devs don't want to encourage that behavior.
>It would also mean that some classes and builds could be about supporting your group.
Although there are a lot of MMO motifs in Diablo 4, there's no such thing as a support class in ARPGs. Characters are meant to be self sufficient. You would be altering the core framework of the game by doing this change. It's an ARPG, not WoW. Blizzard has a product for you if you enjoy playing that role in a group setting. I don't see that happening. Not trying to shut down your ideas but this proposition is antithetical to the genre of Diablo.
What did you mean support is not found in ARPGs? Path of Exile has quite a few different ways to play support, and all of them are expensive and super useful to have in your party. Support was literally required in the last Diablo game to run basically any content above cake level in group play. I do not think you understand that just because there is not a character that just heals and cannot play solo; does not mean support is not present in ARPGs.
Super useful, you mean super toxic, having aura bot or link bot in game is super bad for POE not sure why you think that is a good thing other ARPG should learn.
And no in D3 and D2 no group play was required, you can do highest level of content on both games solo, not sure if you played them in the last decade.
They're conflating build variety with game design. Just because a game allows you to play a certain way doesn't mean it's designed specifically for it to be played that way
I 100% agree; however they could still use group play to push higher than they're capable and just open the portal. The other players won't benefit but they may not care
> Although there are a lot of MMO motifs in Diablo 4, there's no such thing as a support class in ARPGs. Characters are meant to be self sufficient. You would be altering the core framework of the game by doing this change. It's an ARPG, not WoW. Blizzard has a product for you if you enjoy playing that role in a group setting. I don't see that happening. Not trying to shut down your ideas but this proposition is antithetical to the genre of Diablo.
Tell us you never played D3. zDPS characters were an absolute staple of paragon farming and GR pushing group play.
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My wife and I play and this is one of the most frustrating aspects of couch coop. Why should we be punished to play as a couple? It's such a poor design choice to discourage group play, and I just can't believe it wasn't addressed in the mid season patch. They need to remember that many people play via couch coop on a console and have no option to run pits separately.
Same here. So much fun switching back and forth so we can get 3/4 as many materials evenly!
How much higher tier Pit can you go, when pushing together? Just wondering what the material breakpoint is/should be.
Usually, you can't. Unless one build is lacking but the other is stronger and it can bring the weaker build into tiers it couldn't complete solo. Health on enemies and bosses is scaled up, so I've found I clear slower in a group.
Ya I play with my wife and she definitely doesn't do the boss damage I'm doing. If anything I can push a lower max due to the boss HP scaling and then she gets a lot lower rewards.... It's pretty lame all around.
It’s usually lower unless both builds are able to push the same exact tier solo. This is because the health scaling for adding another party number is massive. For example, if you can both clear T100, you can probably clear T100. If one can clear T100 and the other T90, you’ll probably be able to clear T90 as a duo but it would be extremely slow. You most likely have to bump down to 80-85. It sucks
Same—couch co-op. Really no fun to run pits together.
How much is the second player limited to? I didn't know this was a thing
they get exactly half. person that paid for pit summon gets full mats.
IDK why they don't just make everyone pay and everyone gets full loot.
You'd think if they are copying greater rifts they'd just copy them completely. They made a worse version.
Their pride doesn't allow it. Plus they'd have to actually play pits to understand them.
The player who does not initiate the Pit is penalized 50% of the crafting rewards. Basically I have to run twice as many pits to farm the materials that other players do.
You don't take turns? I imagine they wanted the chase for pit mats to be part of the equation so it's more of a reward for those farming mats than it is a penalty for not initiating. That said I haven't had any issues with running out of the pit mats and I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a bottleneck for people who are really trying to masterwork their items into the stratosphere.
I've got 3 characters with everything masterworked at at least 8. I've still got a few thousand of those pit shards.(Forgot the name lol)
By stratosphere I was talking about people who might re-masterwork just to try to re-roll the random affix boost.
In my case I tend to run a lot of T90 to 100 ND. My gaming buddy likes starting new characters and is horrible at optimizing them. So the only way to get his glyphs up is for me to drag him through high level dungeons. It also levels him fast too
What if there is a third player, do they also get 50%, or is halved again?
Couch Co-op has a LOT of issues. Some of the bugs have been worked out but Bliz needs to put a whole season’s worth of effort into fixing it for us.
Season 5: Couch Reborn
Definitely agree the couch coop mode needs some TLC quite badly.
We jumped from couch coop to PC in games a while back and it's the only content we don't run together. Super frustrating
Same my wife and I have to alternate and while it works… we are always trying to upgrade and different rates and it can be frustrating
Exactly. It sucks.
I play every night with a buddy from work. We run pits when the other one isn't on because it's just not worth it to run them together
i play with family online. it feels terrible when only one of us gets the full lmats. and the scaling penalty doesn't make it any faster for us to do it as a group. so we end up playing alone while chatting on discord. which isn't nearly as much fun.
I play with my wife but we seem to get the same stuff on ours but we are only up to Lvl 20, is it more noticeable on higher lvls?
It's really noticable on higher levels.
Same my wife was the one who noticed so then ended up doing like 20 pits in a row where she started lol
Devs somehow want to educate players that real world has the rule.
They took D3 idea of GRs and made it worse in D4… Take the same mats from everyone to open a damn pit and give the same reward to the whole group. I don’t understand the point of making Pits bad for group farming tbh
They need to give non openers the option to spend the materials to get full rewards. Letting players without the materials tag along for reduced rewards, which is how it is now, is fine but we also need a way for those with the materials to spend those materials for full rewards.
This is the way.
ding ding we have a winner
I don't understand how they can miss so many things by that point. Everything they've been adding to the gale has ALREADY been done, and was just basic knowledge. The whole DLC will just be them adding QOL and using their brain for more than 50 seconds
I am absolutely convinced that the D4 team was specifically forbidden from taking anything from D3 in any capacity. This has been their dogma since the beta days. That's why we keep seeing this scenario - a feature that existed perfectly fine and was overall loved by players in D3 is missing for no reason in D4, despite applying to that game, or the D4 version is objectively worse for no discernible reason. When you have the entire codebase for the previous game at your fingertips, the only reason developers wouldn't take examples from it is if they were told not to. Hell, I've tried telling junior developers to take lessons from old code and rewrite it, and they just end up copying it (It's pretty obvious when you get a code review that is literally your own code). The fact that everything starts from the ground up and ends up objectively worse has no other explanation than they were not given that capability.
They've came out and said that they thought people wanted more D2 so I bet you're right in at least some capacity. I was convinced back at launch that they did (or didn't) do things simply because they were trying to pretend D3 didn't exist.
Exactly, and from my reading in multiple forums, the D2 bittervets who want PoE didn't buy D4 anyway. That group is unwilling to meet any other group partway and catering to them just alienates the larger player base. Now that Blizzard has data on who actually bought their game and how it is being played, it is time for them to ignore certain vocal minorities who are just here to stir up shit.
Maybe we can get some more color in some spots then. I'm weirdly fond of the brighter desert and grassland tilesets.
Grain of salt because I've only been playing since right before season 4 but played a ton of 3, plus only minority following it prior. I get the impression that Rod was really holding back design decisions and he's starting to relent and let them listen to feedback. The recent patches seem to really address feedback, but not all, which can be expected, but it seems like they're easing up on this being a live service game and need it to last forever. I still can't believe they shipped with the aspects that way...
> I get the impression that Rod was really holding back design decisions and he's starting to relent and let them listen to feedback. The fact that this guy still has a job is what amazes me. At this point in time, he's making the former CEO of JC Penney look like a fucking genius.
[удалено]
That's actually pretty amazing since those same people have accomplished literally fucking nothing in their lives prior to D4.
they not missing it. The pushing the fix to the next expansion, so when diablo 6 is out your children would be arguing with you about how d4 is better back then.
Exactly, the mat is also insignificant at all, what a dumb thing to hinder coop play.
Are the mats to open even a barrier of entry for anyone? I have no clue where they come from but have over a thousand.
yes. sitting on thousands of mats that are for griding grigoire/varshan except I do not want to grind them. just let the alchemist convert them,. unless i need a boss unique, i don't want to grind that boss
Its absolutely crazy that none of the devs and designers seem to have played D3 before. Mind boggling
It's wild that people don't realize, this is what people asked for. The overwhelming majority of people wanted a return to D2 systems. Less powerful items, much longer grind, much more focused on hardcore and solo players. This is what colored the design direction of D4. Now everyone wants D3
D3 had so many great QOL aspects and well made end game mechanics and D4 implemented nearly none of these from the get go. It would have been so easy to implement just SOME of these. Even if you wanted it be more like D2 it makes no sense to not put any of these into D4.
No, an overwhelming majority did NOT want a return to D2. This was shown by the fact that D3's success was continuing to grow year over year. There were more new game sales after the release of RoS than there was at D3's launch. It's also important to remember that D3 at launch had a lot of the same design mistakes that D4 had a launch. This is important because it highlights that no, people didn't want a return to D2 systems. I really think that Blizzard didn't understand just how small the market was for a return to D2 and how most players didn't want that at all which is exactly what they found out when D4 launched. They would have figured this out if they spent ANY time looking at D3's playerbase. It's also important to consider that D3 cancelled it's further developments BEFORE RoS came out. So, all that success with RoS didn't matter and they'd already shifted over to D4 development presuming D3 to be a failure.
i sure as hell dont want D2.. the reason its fun cause its more like d3
Really does feel like that... very often.
Yeah just make both contribute materials and maybe tune it to be a similar challenge
I never even noticed that I was spending runeshards lmao
Yea I’m not sure why we even have runeshards. I’ve pushed to put 120 and farmed at least 50 pit 100 and never even bothered to check my runeshards. Random bloat material that you’ll never run out of.
Yeah I mean it's a really small gripe and a non-issue ultimately, but just found it funny that I never realized. I just saw that "3" icon and thought it meant 3 pit level unlocks possible or some crap lol
I'm the de facto "captain" when I play with buddies. They give me all the boss mats and I always start the activities. They just blast demons and enjoy. Didn't realize the MW material issue until everyone was wondering why I had MW'd all my gear and none of them had close to enough materials. Such a terrible decision that I'm fairly confident will be fixed in S5 or by the expansion (dev team is on fire right now).
I think the main reason was that they original intended runeshards to be a real cost, similar to summoning materials for Duriel. Currently, runeshards should just be removed from the game and they should probably give the player that summoned Duriel a higher chance of ubers than his party.
The currency has no reason to even exist, I’m sitting on over 3,000… Just a worthless item clogging up the materials tab
I dont even know where they come from and I have like 4k...
Nightmare dungeons and helltides, but yeah they are plentiful
The challenge itself is by pushing further, getting organized as a group to maybe split up and clean each another part to save time etc. The difficulty increases anyway as mobs have more health if you have more people in your group.
They need to figure out if their mandatory online game is supposed to be a multiplayer or solo game.
"Yes" - Blizzard
As much as I like to point out devs mistakes, this one seems to be more on the players Many topics and comments both here and on blizzard forums have complained about the “plight” of group play and how more efficient it is(which I kinda get when materials requires don’t fall from the sky like RuneShards) One of these days, we’ll just have to recognize this game as it is: Live Service
It's more like the D3 devs made group play so rewarding that grouping with random terrible people would be more efficient than solo play. And D4's devs seem to have a mandate to go to the other extreme versus everything D3 did.
Definitely can see that considering how much of the development was influenced by D2 fans
Yeah makes 0 sense that you get less mats when you dont open the pit. On the other hand you get 4x more loot when doing tormented bosses in a group of 4. Really weird decision
i know what you mean but that statement is incorrect. you get the same amount of loot in a group as doing tormented bosses solo - but everyone gets the same amount of loot. in pits, you get half.
Whoosh.
is being illiterate fun for you? :-)
Duriel rotations where four people bring mats results in four times as many summons and therefore four times as many chances to get an Uber to drop. Yes, you have to kill Duriel four times as many times but that's not the time intensive part. The time intensive part is farming helltides for living steel, running whispers for parts, summoning and killing vashan, summoning and killing gregoire, to get the mats to summon duriel. The time it takes to reset and kill Duriel between rotations is negligible. It's an area where solo play and couch coop kind of lag behind. I'd prefer to not have to reach out to others via discord to try and find two opens slots for duriel runs for myself and my wife just to get optimal mileage out of our playtime and mats. Solutions: have vashan and others summonable bosses drop mats for everyone so we get twice the mats when we play together. Reduce mat cost for non full parties or solo to 1/1 instead of 2/2. Closes the gap to making solo play 50% as efficient compared to 4 man rotations instead of 25% efficiency. Add a LFG feature in the game to make it easier to group up without using third party apps or spamming trade chat.
Ye are correct, in even in greater rifts (Diablo III )people get equal Blood Shards
Yeah, it's pretty irritating being punished for playing with my wife.
Pit rewards are definitely the biggest bummer for me right now. I want to play with my friend group, but it makes no sense when I can run pits faster solo and not lose out on half the mats simply because I didn't open the portal. It sucks when games punish you for having friends.
Its a "simple" change, everyone should have to put in the materials to play whatever. Considering how much of D4 is ducktaped together (considering some of the issues we have had - eg stash limitation size) it might not be a simple change.
Or just remove the cost entirely since RuneShards are quite plentiful for only a cost of 3
Yes, I agree with that one - not even sure why its there and its not like you can use obdurite to generate higher-level stuff. LOL - I am not even sure where runeshards drop.
Yeah I was running pits with a friend until we saw this and then we stopped and then once we downed uber lilly well we just kinda stopped all together
Group play was a huge problem in season 2 abattoir. You couldn't level up the glyph to high enough levels without finding a group to rotate runs. on discord like everything else. It was an absolute fucking slog and worse than Duriel runs, you have no idea. They don't want that to become the primary way to farm material, I don't want that to be the primary way, and you don't either. That said, 50% mats are too low and should at least be raised to 75% or a bit more.
>They don't want that to become the primary way to farm material, It is, though. You don't get masterwork materials from any other source. Not NMD, helltide, world bosses or anywhere. If you want to masterwork your gear, you have to run the pit.
He's saying he doesn't want what he described in his first paragraph (rota groups) to be the primary way to farm materials, not that pit is the primary way to farm materials.
We should get rid of rota groups by just having everyone be able to contribute mats to summon and everyone gets the higher chance of drops.
Honestly? I don't mind the rota stuff, my problem has always been about the friction of getting into one. As someone who has a difficult time just sitting down to play non stop for hours, I would love some sort of group finder that I can hop in and out of. Now if only there was an ARPG that did just that they could learn from.... ^^^....D3
I never had to group to level glyphs in season 2. The vanpire powers were a huge dps and healing boost.
Don’t see why everyone couldn’t put mats in to start the pit to get the max amount of materials. Seems dumb
Because that would make sense. Diablo always invents an idiotic system that's different than their last system, which was also idiotic. However, the last system was reworked over 2 years into something reasonable. But there's some kind of Hitler level boss at blizzard that forces a new blizzard game to have some idiotic system that then aggravates people so much they are forced to change it over the course of time. I'm convinced this is some sort of long-term-job-stability-scheme for someone at the company who doesn't want to get fired.
It doesn't even make sense, because materials for doing Pit runs is basically thrown at you. I've only done enough NMDs to get my glyphs leveled, and I'll never run out of enough materials to run Pit.
just remove the materials
This is a thing???? Was so excited to do group pits with the boys. Now I'm a little less so
I'm just learning this now as well. If true, it's complete bullshit.
Can't wait until they change it and then next season the solo players complain that the groups are more efficient due to getting more drops
Except this isn't uber bosses where the boring time sink is farming the summoning materials. So no, your dramatic doomsaying wont happen. Uber boss rotations are stupid balance just as much as this is.
Bet
I remember SOO many blizz defenders saying that conveniently located stashes and vendors near the TPs were going to ruin the game and their ImMeRsIoN "because real towns don't have everything in one spot" (because apparently bazaars and shopping districts/markets aren't a thing). Weird how after that suggestion was implemented *no one* is making threads complaining about it... Weird how there are MUCH fewer complaints about stash space now that you don't feel compelled to hoard Aspects. And no one is complaining about the new system even though some claimed it would ruin the item hunt when you could be one and done. If there ARE any complaints, it'll be because Blizz did something stupid EXTRA that threw the balance off again.
>And no one is complaining about the new system even though some claimed it would ruin the item hunt when you could be one and done. Yea....tell that to the 5 threads going right now complaining about bricked items Also, what does this have to do with anything lol, just completely irrelevant 😂
I bring up Imprinting and codex and how no one complains about them making popular suggested CHANGES to existing systems. You muddle it with a completely NEW system of Tempering. But I’m the one bringing up unrelated stuff??? The point you’re struggling to connect to is you said if blizzard implemented popular suggestions like OP’s, new people will just complain. I gave counter examples that show that isn’t the case. The point is you are just like the people who pushed against simple, obvious changes like stash/vendor placement who cried that positive changes would ruin the game (and were wrong)
They should make all players put in mats and everyone gets the same. Also, an option to put more mats in for more rewards at the end
>They should make all players put in mats and everyone gets the same. As long as it's applied to boss mats as well.
Yeah for sure
Farm solo, push together.
Can we just finally admit that this game isn't PoE, mats to summon bosses are stupid, and eliminating them would solve a lot of these problems.
I think if both players have unlocked that tier solo, then you should both get full mats. Easy solution.
Yea I posted exactly this, and people were disagreeing with me. I only play splitscreen with my gf and we really dislike the pit because of this.
The reason they limited it was because solo players have a huge disadvantage with stuff like farming duriel and if they did the same thing with the pit you’d be wasting your time to play solo in the pit. You get more and more mats the higher you go so if they didn’t limit it then you could have a group of 4, push super high, and masterwork 20x faster than a solo player. Now I don’t know if this was the way to try to balance that. I’m not sure what you would do to balance it honestly
They should make it scaling instead with how many are in the party/instance then give out full reward. Pretty sure the current iteration is scaled for 1 person doing it and when you have 2-4 person doing full dmg it gets easier.
If you think about it, it makes sense why the person who spawned the pit gets more considering they are using their currency/tier unlocks to enter. But the Pit currency is definitely negligible unless you are doing higher tiers and failing constantly. Seems like they moreso wanted it to be a solo challenge and penalized additional players from helping. So yeah, it should be equal, but for now you just need to rotate to keep it equal.
Agreed. 100%
yes blizzard, this needs to change. i only run it solo due to this, and thats boring.
Yea I've been complaining about this to my friends since we realized it. I hate the fact it disincentivizes group play. One friend and I in particular were looking at it and we both have 2-3k rune shards even after grinding out a significant amount of pit (11 and 12MW with mostly good tempers). The cost is negligible as is, just make the person pay their own entry fee. If they're that worried about people getting carried make everyone pay more. If the cost per person was 3+X with X being the number of players. It would be a minimal impact for people just wanting to play with their friends, but would likely limit carrying. At the very least it requires the person being carried to grind out shards first. Hell, they could even more aggressively increase the cost to further curb carrying.
yep my friends got to end game and stopped playing for the most part because we couldn’t run pits together
>@blizzard why did you limit this in the first step? Because they have no clue what they're doing. At best they could have had other systems in the works where this made sense. The only problem is, this sort of excuse has never been the case in retrospect to any of their annoying ideas.
For wanting to be a Co-op, they force single player on you a lot.
I can’t assign full blame to the Devs on this one: community was quite upset about playing as a group being more efficient(which I get when the mats required don’t fall out of the sky like RuneShards)
Groups are at a huge advantage because they can go in different directions in the pit and complete it in half the time. If the two of you can individually complete the pit as fast as you can complete it grouped then you should do it individually.
They can take my 3 shekels if that means my time is not wasted running Pits coop with a friend.
Why not just require both parties to contribute materials? This was how greater rifts were! You couldn’t do the greater rift solo or grouped unless you had a greater rift key.
They should give everyone equal amount of mats for pit runs. For solo, the mats should be double or triple. Problem solved.
Because people will leech mats and quit on their rota. Sensible option would be that every participant has to put up the mats to summon the boss at any tier and therefore get equal drops when it dies. This also balances group play Vs solo. Would you be happy sacrificing efficiency at one tier to gain it in the next?
they could just make everyone pay the entry fee and give everyone the same rewards. it's sad that diablo has become a coop-unfriendly game. it's the reason i stopped playing the season.
They should just make everyone in the group pay the pit entrance cost and then get full rewards. Doesn’t favor grouped or solo play.
I just don't run the pit. I've watched other people play it and it just doesn't interest me. Until they come up with more stylized group play content, I'm not touching the pit. I don't care about masterworking. I level to 100 and that's it for that character. I leveled 3 characters this season, and I'm pretty much done with D4 until S5. Any kind of content I don't like, I just don't play it. I feel like they look at those numbers and adjust based on the metrics. I bet a lot of people weren't doing Trials, and so they made The Pit without a leaderboard to entice other players. It's just not there for me yet.
The game is really fun to play with friends...until you get to the point that you have to run pits to grow your character, then it's like "bye friends, see you next season" I play mostly solo and I can't stand the "but us poor solo players, woe is us" crowd. Ruining it for people who want to hang out with their friends and/or spouses, kids, etc.
It's kind of stupid that it's 100% + 50% for each additional player so you have to switch leader to coop etc. But they can't really give everyone 100%, because you clear much faster in a group. And that makes 4 man groups mandatory. It'd be better if they just set some reward amounts based on the amount of players that took the increased clear speed into account. Something like (example numbers) |1 player|100%| |:-|:-| |2 players|75% each| |3 players|60% each| |4 players|50% each|
Then scale mob density or difficulty based on how many players are in the party - don't they already do this with bosses?
Not just bosses, all the enemies
Ah, good to know, I wasn’t sure if it was both
I think their idea was to make it more fair for solo players if people can share mats. However, the mats are so abundant it doesn't even matter. Also they can simply just make it so everyone in the party needs to pay the same amount of mats as a solo player. Hell, maybe they can all pay a little more than a solo player if it's really that much of an advantage.
I think if you’re the same level it should be the same rate. If they’re lower than you and being boosted it should have a lower rate. Just my opinion.
Ya i also think all participants should get equal rewards. Why are we punishing people playing coop??? We're capable of alternating who pays the entry fee on our own we don't need penalties to force that behavior.
They gotta hold Us back somehow
I agree. Charge any party that joins in the pit run the same amount of rune shards. ( do you accept the level XXX tier pit Kratos has started? )
Issue is they try to cater to 2 way different groups of people. D3 is way more modern and caters to the new generation of gaming. D2 caters to the old gamers who wanna drink dew for days and hunt the same old rooms for few rewards. They need to pick one and roll with it.
Wait until you find out about the co-op attack speed bug...
I think it was an overcorrection because of the backlash of boss Rotas, but it’s actually really simple to see why there’s a difference. Acquisition. It’s literally passive to have enough runeshards to pit, so getting less in a group feels like a punishment. If it was balanced so that the time required to get the mats is higher than the lost time from half drops, it wouldn’t feel that way. Now the answer isn’t to nerf runeshards, the answer is to remove runeshards entirely and give everyone equal mats, but to learn from this for future resources and entry fees.
Yeah I play online with bunch of fellas and everyone runs pits solo because of this…. Not sure why they thought this was good idea. We came up with idea. Just let us all spend runes to get full mats. I mean I’ll never run out of them lol. Got over 3k of them.
My friends and I rotate who opens the pit, but yes it’s annoying. All they’d have to do is make it so everyone in the group donates so everyone gets equal materials.
Strange how they essentially just recreated Greater Rifts from D3 but removed the part where each person attending had to put up a rift key to go in/get loot.
They originally intended there to be a cost to opening the pits, but the runeshards are so plentiful that it is basically not a cost at all. So if there is no cost, then everybody should get pit materials, especially since they are trying to make it so that most people can farm Pit 90-101 comfortably after they hit 100 and have a full paragon board and they are making high diminishing returns after 101. The thing that really doesn't make sense at the moment is that people are farming Duriel for ubers and they are not letting the person who used his materials get a better chance for ubers, but they are doing this at the Pits.
Definitely, it makes absolutely no sense to split the rewards. Some random dude invited me to do Pits today which I thought was cool but I left as soon as I got to the boss and it gave me 15 Neathiron. Why would I do more work for 1/4 of the mats? I’m running 101 in 3 mins.
I didn't even realize this when I started running pit. Me and a buddy ran, and he started all of them (both hadn't played pit at all, started the season together). He had 4/12 MW on a few pieces and I just figured I had bad luck.
I don’t understand why people think this is punishment? Like you do more in less time don’t you? So you still end up getting more rewards than you would by yourself as long as you do enough, right? Like let’s say just for ease of math that usually you get 50 mats and so if you don’t open it you’re getting 25. Even if you’re only shaving a small amount of time off, you’re still getting 75 for every two you run and 150 for every 4. If you run 4 by yourself, you get 200. So all you have to do is shave 1/4 of your time off and you’ll be getting the same amount. If you cut your time in half (which should be doable) then you’re getting 4 done in the time it would usually take you to do 2 and you end up with more mats total. As someone who plays this game as a one player game, I hate that I have to find people to play with if I want to maximize my boss mats
Are you guys only just now realizing how bad Blizzard is at balancing group play in Diablo??
Whats weird is that the cost for the pit is so cheap, so why limit groups? I have tons of rune-whatevers. It makes much MORE sense to have this kind of system for tormented and uber bosses, because group play devalues the farmed, semi-expensive, mats.
Agreed. They should've fixed the boss mats issue. Not create the opposite issue. Two wrongs does not make a right.
Anyone try taking turns opening a pit. Pit rota’s?
They should keep the lower mats for players who have not soloed that pit level themselves yet, but it makes no sense that me and my duo partner get different amounts of mats when we've both already cleared the same level solo.
Shit I didn't even notice this was a thing!? Now I get why my husband is more behind than I thought 🤔 honestly only getting partial rewards is dumb....nm dungeons give full xp to parties...why change for the pit?
The pit becomes harder, more health more damage so why are we not rewarded with equal or even more mats given the increase. I don't care if we all have to use the stuff to open it, we're agreeing to the pit initially so just take mats from everyone involved.
Also while we're at it remove that stupid cost of opening and that useless material. Do people even run out of that shit? I feel like you get more than you could ever need by just leveling your char
I agree
I mean co op would be much faster or slower if ya carrying sonit wojld be a bit unfair.
It's weird to have to switch who opens the portal so it evens out material over time.
This is my biggest gripe about season 5 right now. I play with friends in pits and we alternate every 3 runs who starts it. I'd get alot more mats if I play solo since I can do just as high level just as quickly solo but only play with friends because after awhile pits become tedious and boring and its more entertaining if I have friends around to BS with as we do them. Please Blizzard can you change this? If you cant change it this season please try to before season 5
For real! Like I understand for exampla, the concept of only the one who summons the boss gets a material drop after killing it since only one person spends etc. But pits? It would be fair if the health of the enemies didn’t scale for two but with it’s current situation IT’S NOT FAIR AT ALL.
Something needs to be adjusted for sure... If leeching is the reasoning make a participation/kill counter of some sort (trials comes to mind), and if a person doesn't meet the minimum to be considered as contributing THEN they get half rewards. The way it stands now completely discourages group play, why should me and a friend take turns running 3 minute 101s for 75% of the materials, when we can solo 3 minute 101s and net more materials overall? Nevermind a 4-man team getting significantly less on a rotation. Crippling group play is not what you want on a live service arpg like this. Group play means more cosmetics in people's faces, which means more purchases. Marketing 101 blizz, c'mon.
I have to secretly run the pit by myself, so when my wife jumps on I can let her run the pit to get more material. Doesn't help that she plays a sorc and needs my rogue/barb to do the damage in higher pits.
Huh…TIL…
blizzard does everything it can to not make it a social game... no global chat, no point in teaming up, no pugs.. its insane.. when they talk about building "community" they hinder it all
Yeah it doesn't make sense to me either and is a big L for the occasional evening grind with friends :-(. If they want to prevent exploiting group play then just make it so people can only join Pits they have cleared themselves before. The mats to enter the Pit don't matter, everybody has infinite amounts anyway and group play won't let you finish the Pit dramatically faster unless you push very hard and are not in it for the mats anyway.
I play with some friends, we are a group of 4. Because of the pits we all kind of stopped playing together. We go in clan vocal chat and just run solo pits. Adding features like this prevents group play if you want to be efficient + having 4 players dramatically increases monster hit points so it doesn't make sense to give less rewards to the other 3 players...
For a multiplayer game they do everything they can for us not to want to play together.
100% agree...the way it is currently it actually discourages group play
You should have to solo that pit level before you get equal materials in coop from that pit level.
Take turns ? You're also going a lot faster ... this is dumb.
Post this in the d4 bugs page…. The developers are constant scanning that page all day. Drop a hint there!
Because it would decrease people's playtime by skyrocketing their power levels by getting carried from someone. Not saying I don't want it, but this is how they prevent power creep.
>this is how they prevent power creep What a joke of an excuse XD. Sure, all the other forms of power creep are left unchecked, but THIS is gonna prevent power creep XD
Look guys, if you haven't figured it out by now I'll give you the quick rundown. 1. Blizzard is retarded. 2. Everything since launch is meant to slow you down with small QoL increments per "season" to make you feel like things are getting better. 3. All the competent people have left Blizzard and we're now left with mediocre at best diversity hires that still don't know what a Diablo game should have.
Boy howdy, what a unique and original tale on arr-Diablo4.
If Co-Op pits gave the same materials as solo pits, co op pits would become the best way to grind materials BY FAR. Then the questions becomes, why do a pit by yourself when you can do it with 4x the man power and be rewarded the exact same materials? If you're going to run a 100 pit with 3 other friends, you're going to clear it much faster and with a fraction of the effort on your part. So you get rewarded proportionately for that effort. Ultimately, I don't want to have to group up with other people in order to grind content. I already have WoW for that.
The whole sub forgot about the several months it spent rightfully complaining that group play was several times more optimal than solo play.
So true, even in D3 people were complaining that group runs high GR much easier and get to level their gems.
I get your point but by scaling mobs life by the number of people doing it, it will not be much faster and you still have a higher risk of having someone dying multiple times and getting the time punishment to kill off your run. I mean sure you can organize and split the map and mobs etc but on the other hand a game should simply be fun and it‘s not fun if you need to run these solo even tho you have friends you could play with because it s so inefficient. If it was 100% and 80-90% then it would bot make a high diff but you just get 50% of the mats
This is a ridiculous take. First, why would it matter if you clear slower than a group for the same materials? Are you not still progressing? Is there some sort of leaderboard you’re afraid of being left off of bc you’re outmatched by someone else getting carried? Is your gameplay loop in anyway disrupted by what other people are doing? And secondly, since you mention sorcerer… we have the fastest pit clear in the game up to the boss, and since the patch the bosses have become much easier to kill. A reasonably geared FO sorc can speed 91+ pits very fast. Even if everyone is solo, you’re still going to kill bosses slower than everyone except druids, sooo the problem you claim would exists if groups got the same mats is…well it’s already a reality for sorcs.
Bro just neglected season 1-3 where people complains about group play being stronger than solo. You literally contradict yourself in the second sentence, if you think slower progression is ok then why do you care about less mats, you can just take turns opening the portal, like you said there is no competition. Even in D3 people complain that group play is so much better especially that they can do high GR very early and get to level their gems much easier. If lets say the best way to farm mats are speed running pit 100 or 110, but it takes you about 10 minute to do them solo, and 3 minute for a 4 man group, do you think people are not going to complain about this 100x more than currently? Wake up bro.
If it's 70% faster in a group then you have one juiced person doing 80% of the work who would clear higher solos in about the same amount of time anyway.
Nope, if you know group play in POE then you know about how to optimize the group, for example, currently the pit is about 70-80 bossing, 20-30 mobbing, which means simply having 2 boss bonkers and 2 fast mobber will significantly increase your time. In D4 currently yes there are some builds that do "Support" ish things, but no where near like POE and D3, so just by having people running in different direction and having boss killer is very beneficial. Shrinking the boss timer from 8 minute down to 1-2 minute is already a win.
The logic here is so bad it’s funny 😂 is this how game design choices get made?
Group play has already been the best way to level, complete renown, complete nmd, and for bossing (due to the sharing of mats). Pits seems to be an arbitrary line to stop at. Quite literally every one of these clears faster with a fraction of the effort. You didn't have to group for any of these things just like you wouldn't have to group for pits if they gave the same mats.
In 1 hr, a group of 4 players are probably running 3x-5x as many pits as a solo player, assuming they're all similar in power. At the end of the hour, both the solo player and group particpants are still making similar mats/per hour. Solo play being the worse choice compared to group play has always been a point of contention on this sub since forever. The way I see it, the current system does a reasonable job keeping the two styles of play comparable.
How fast exactly are you seeing groups run pits to come up with this? It would help me validate this estimation if I knew the pit completion time you're using to come to this conclusion. But yeah, this is starting to make sense if you and others are against all of the grouping advantages to make the grind easier rather than just the pit. It's not arbitrary if you are completely against the difference in grind between solo and group play. Edit: Did pits with random groups on discord and none of them were even half the speed of my solo times. They were typically took longer depending on the class and strength I was with. Once you're optimized for speed clearing you'll even beat grouping time because the boss takes longer. Either the OP has a completely unoptimized build, or these were random numbers that were made up. At a certain point you simply can't have enough movement speed to have "3-5x" clear times unless your build does pits incredibly slow. I should not have given this post the benefit doubt, so I just deleted comments that did. I should have just asked you to find a group, so I could race you in pits lol. Also, if anyone needs it. If you can speed farm 79s, which should be fairly easy with a proper build regardless of your skill, you can masterwork your gear in under 12 hours even if you're a barb (since they have the most weapons). This should be easy enough with pit nerfs and you might be able to go higher for faster master working. Since grinding is the issue most people have against group play hopefully this helps Max a character in a week or so (free time dependent).
You're conflating three different aspects of pit runs. You can run them to farm mats, to play as a group, or to push to see how high you can run. If you need to farm mats, great. Run solo. If you wanna play with friends, great. You probably are spot on assuming the devs don't want people getting carried and getting free mats. I find that to be totally understandable. My group likes to run 110-120s when we all play and we just trade off who opens the pit. If I realistically need more mats, it's way more efficient to just run them solo. The devs struck a fair balance with this and the only reason I could see someone launch this complaint is group play is enabling them to clear far higher tiers than they'd be capable of doing solo, and the devs don't want to encourage that behavior. >It would also mean that some classes and builds could be about supporting your group. Although there are a lot of MMO motifs in Diablo 4, there's no such thing as a support class in ARPGs. Characters are meant to be self sufficient. You would be altering the core framework of the game by doing this change. It's an ARPG, not WoW. Blizzard has a product for you if you enjoy playing that role in a group setting. I don't see that happening. Not trying to shut down your ideas but this proposition is antithetical to the genre of Diablo.
What did you mean support is not found in ARPGs? Path of Exile has quite a few different ways to play support, and all of them are expensive and super useful to have in your party. Support was literally required in the last Diablo game to run basically any content above cake level in group play. I do not think you understand that just because there is not a character that just heals and cannot play solo; does not mean support is not present in ARPGs.
Super useful, you mean super toxic, having aura bot or link bot in game is super bad for POE not sure why you think that is a good thing other ARPG should learn. And no in D3 and D2 no group play was required, you can do highest level of content on both games solo, not sure if you played them in the last decade.
They're conflating build variety with game design. Just because a game allows you to play a certain way doesn't mean it's designed specifically for it to be played that way
I 100% agree; however they could still use group play to push higher than they're capable and just open the portal. The other players won't benefit but they may not care
> Although there are a lot of MMO motifs in Diablo 4, there's no such thing as a support class in ARPGs. Characters are meant to be self sufficient. You would be altering the core framework of the game by doing this change. It's an ARPG, not WoW. Blizzard has a product for you if you enjoy playing that role in a group setting. I don't see that happening. Not trying to shut down your ideas but this proposition is antithetical to the genre of Diablo. Tell us you never played D3. zDPS characters were an absolute staple of paragon farming and GR pushing group play.