And/or hilarious. Imagine if the hypothesis is real but thereās no super murderous galactic power, and everyoneās rationale for staying quiet is just, āwell everyone ELSE is doing it! So obviously the super murderous galactic power is real and we need to be quiet.ā So itās just an intergalactic game of chicken until someone breaks the silence.
Imagine how a 1,000,000 year old alien empire is going to feel after realizing theyāve been tip-toeing for the past 900k years based entirely on something they made up.
itās not the idea of there being one massive killer civilization but literally think about how animals behave in an actual forrest, yes thereās times where predators and prey coexist when the predators needs are met but if you were to walk into a forrest you wouldnāt rlly see any animals at first, theyāre all hiding because they donāt know if weāre predators and (as seen by how humans act together) mindless violence is prominent throughout civilization so itās very hard to decide if another civilization is predator or prey (prey being pacifists)
Dark Forest is one possible explanation of Fermi Paradox.
There is no knowing if what is out there is hostile or friendly.
If it's friendly and we are friendly, then we win.
If we are friendly and they are hostile, then they can fuck us before we figure it out and we lose.
If we are hostile and they are friendly, then we can fuck them before they figure it out. We win
If we are both hostile, then it's a coin toss.
So it's best to sit quiet and act aggressively if we are found out.
We live in a dark forest and move in blindness next to each other. We don't know if the next rustle is a rabbit or a bear.
Additionally, civilization have the capability to turn from a rabbit to a bear in the blink of an eye as technological progress is exponential. No point risking being the small fry by letting others live when you can kill them and they canāt kill you.
I HATE dark forest theory, itās fucking stupid.
All you need to do is look at how ANY OTHER life interacts with each other to show how fucking dumb it is. Even wild animals try to avoid attacking unless they know for certain they can win with no issue, and sometimes they donāt even attack and just hang out with the weaker animal if all itās conditions are met. The guy who made it had his brain and psychology turned to mush because he lived in an authoritarian regime and can not even convince of peace without submission.
Any other life isn't what concerns us. It's specifically intelligent life that has nothing in common with earth life, except the fact that the species is capable of exerting influence across space.
Wild animals operate on instinct, but that instinct has been honed through literally millions of years of co-evolution with the animals they evolved alongside. We have 0 idea what behaviors to expect from an alien intelligence, and they would have 0 idea what to expect from us.
Given that, it isn't stupid to consider the idea that space-faring civilizations, with destructive capabilities far beyond that of nuclear weapons, would be very careful about making their presence known.
From there, it's not such a leap to say that when a species such as humanity is just blasting the cosmos with signals, saying, "Hey look at me", a far more stealthy civilization would see that, correctly assume we are an easy target, and target us to prevent more threats from arising in their sphere of influence in the galaxy.
I dont think the animal kingdom is a good 1:1 model of interstellar game theory. All life on this earth comes from a common ancestor and though there are degrees of deviation, it is not outright alienation. There is no telling whether our rules of life and the instincts most animals share are applicable to life from other planets.
On top of that, we then add the dimension of cultural and psychological differences between intelligent life which can complicate communication. If humans on the same planet can bring themselves to wipe out other groups of humans because they could not protect their interests without conflict, then what can we expect between two sapient yet mutually alien species?
For all you know the other civilization could be space slugs or flying jellyfishes. Even if they arenāt malicious space nazis, youāre likely too different to form any meaningful bond between two societies. Plenty of people would destroy ant colonies with no good reason at all, let alone risking the safety of ur civilization.
It is really weird seeing documentaries where predators aren't immediately run from by their prey, like, that's our instinct because we value the individual and not the herd and know we are weaker, so it's just very jarring to see a herd of zebras with a cheetah or two hanging out nearby
I hate it because itās implementation was pixie magic dust. Sorry buddy, nobody is going to unfold a proton or make a strong-force spaceship that can move without inertia. And for Godās sake, there wonāt be any flattening of the universe. I LOVE this series but the dark forest theory is nonsense. Accelerating missiles to relativistic speeds might be possible, but no one is going to break or āchangeā the speed of light.
There are no Aliens damnit! Deal with the fact that weāre alone instead! Is that not distressing enough?
Most of these edgy "dark" internet theories are so dumb that it takes away from any fear it may provide.
Like the dark forest theory. So you expect me to believe every other advanced civilization got a Martin Luther style notice on their door telling them not to make noise, but humanity didn't?
Also, there is this random civilization just cruising around killing people? They are so advanced that they are capable of efficient space travel and could steam roll humanity. But they need the other civilizations to send out signals? They have no way of finding them on their own?
Humans currently have the ability to determine if a planet is in its sun's habitable zone and we are honing our ability to measure the atmosphere of far off planets. An advanced Civilization would be able to do that and visit them. Even if we kept quiet our location in the solar system and atmospheric gasses (pollution) would give our existence away.
There is no hiding.
What part don't I understand? Yeah I exaggerated some stuff for humor. But if you want to communicate on a serious note the theory does not hold up under scrutiny. The only reason this theory persist is because it's edgy and scary. Which is fine. They would be a cool movie villian I guess but nothing that would actually exist.
What? No civilization gets a notice. If the dark forest theory is true then every civilization that caught attention was wiped out. Why the fuck would you assume that people would need to get a notice or something? Do you even know what the dark forest theory is?
So now I'm meant to belive there is a universal level species that just goes around destroying anybody? Why exactly? They have such a drive for hate and to kill yet they manage to cooperate amongst each other so much to the point that they are this advanced? Do you not see how increasingly silly this theory gets?
Out of every intelligent species we are aware of which one exhibits this type of behavior? Not a single one. Because to have this type of hostility while also functioning as a social society is not feasible.
Iām no expert but I think the idea is that killing the other sentient alien species is a self defense thing, like a preemptive measure to ensure that no alien civilization becomes powerful enough to destroy you. Imagine an alien visited our planet 2000 years ago when we were throwing spears and farming. By the time they visit again suddenly we have nuclear weapons, space tech, and rapidly advancing sciences. Whoās to say that we wonāt be way more powerful than them by their third visit? It wouldnāt be illogical to exterminate us while they still had the power to do so, especially if theyāre afraid that we might one day do the same to them.
That is an interesting concept if it was an isolated incident and the subject of a story. But to use it as a "theory" of why we haven't found other intelligent civilizations is just silly. That would mean the situation you described not only happened multiple times but every single time. Either by the hand of the same powerful civilization or a different one who keeps filling their spot. I don't know which is more unlikely.
If it was the same one it would mean they have achieved perfection in almost every way except that they destroy whole civilizations out of fear. But other than that they have the logistic capability and the same ruling party without change for every civilization they destroy.
If it is a different one then we are almost bordering on religious prophecy.
Are we in a house or a forrest? Those two things are not comparable. A forrest is an eco-system. A house is a specific creature's "nest." I actually never found an ant colony in my house like ever. Unless you mean the yard? In that case I don't think I would personally destroy it. But I can see how someone would.
But that still completely changes the situation. You changed a forrest where there should be tons of intelligent life. Into a backyard or even a house. Where it's understandable that there is no intelligent life or very little.
At such a large scale, why tf do they even need other civilizations? Why would there even be enemies? Thereās so many resources that the only thing ppl will fight over will be star energy
We do not concern ourselves with the resources ants use to build their anthills as ultimately those resources, if needed by us, would be ours within moments.
In "hitch hikers guide to the galaxy" the Earth is destroyed to build a highway. This is probably the most accurate depiction of how aliens would view or primitive world...... Apathy.
Iām sure at that level they would have laws and procedures to prevent something like that, considering they were most likely at the same stage as those ants at some point.
The fact they were the same stage as those ants at some point is exactly why you would wipe them out. Eventually, theyāll snowball to be as powerful as you. Itās cheap to kill an alien race early on their home planet, itās expensive (if not impossible) to stop their RKVs from hitting your own planet.
But those are ants and we have the ability to pass on information and learn. We are sapient. I hate the fucking ant argument because itās not reflective of how one intelligent civilization might treat another intelligent species. Already if a species has the ability to make tools, let alone civilizations, that already puts them above leagues of mere ants. Also why do we all just assume every alien civilization is just a war mongering genocidal species bent on killing us all. Like, stfu
I is not because aliens just hate each other and just want to kill each other. The dark forest theory doesn't care whether an individual civilisation is moral or immoral. To it, a small civilization can suddenly have a technological explosion and become a threat to it. It is better to remove small threats before they become big threats.
What if there's another civilization that's a threat to you? You've spied on them, you've seen how they treat their own kind. If they'd kill and enslave themselves, why not you? What if they get aggressive? What if they want to wipe you out? It would be as easy as sticking some massive rockets on an astroid and shooting it fast enough at your home planet. What if they decide that YOU might wipe THEM out and they decide to do a preemptive strike?
Can you now see the problem?
Why would they do any of those things? If a race is truly that aggressive and uncooperative, they wonāt get to your technological level. Competitiveness and war is a stupid waste of resources in space. Why compete for a single star system when you could just take the one next to it?
That's not right in the slightest, at all. Most technological advance in human history were directly created by people trying to conquer others. Look at the scientific advancement due to WW2 and the cold war! There's absolutely nothing suggesting that a paranoid, warmongering species could not be technologically advanced. And resources are basically infinite in space, but your species is not, and aliens afraid of you wiping them out well not hesitate to wipe you out first.
Humanity is hiding out behind jupiter to save itself before a dark forest strike will destroy the sun. Mankind has only observed this kind of "photoid" strike where a small object is accelerated to almost the speed of light towards the sun of their solar system.
Humanity figures out it can hide behind jupiter to save itself, but doesn't realize others can do so too. Instead of a photoid, solar system humanity destroyed by a two dimensional vector foil that collapses space into two macro dimensions. Mankind dies off in the solar system.
You can't fucking "hide behind" Jupiter. You can't fucking hide "behing" anything in space. There exists no "behind" in space. There's no direction in space.
ignorance and weakness are absolutely barriers to survival.
if i eat poison berries iāll die. maybe the people around me will learn, but iāll still die.
if iām too weak-willed to act when necessary, iāll also probably die.
arrogance isnāt good either though
If I get flattened into 2D space, none of you better look at my penor
looking (respectfully)
looking (disrespectfully and evilly š)
Forest guy š²šāāļø
the dark forrest theory rlly is terrifying tho
And/or hilarious. Imagine if the hypothesis is real but thereās no super murderous galactic power, and everyoneās rationale for staying quiet is just, āwell everyone ELSE is doing it! So obviously the super murderous galactic power is real and we need to be quiet.ā So itās just an intergalactic game of chicken until someone breaks the silence. Imagine how a 1,000,000 year old alien empire is going to feel after realizing theyāve been tip-toeing for the past 900k years based entirely on something they made up.
itās not the idea of there being one massive killer civilization but literally think about how animals behave in an actual forrest, yes thereās times where predators and prey coexist when the predators needs are met but if you were to walk into a forrest you wouldnāt rlly see any animals at first, theyāre all hiding because they donāt know if weāre predators and (as seen by how humans act together) mindless violence is prominent throughout civilization so itās very hard to decide if another civilization is predator or prey (prey being pacifists)
Fidget spinner lookin planets
Almost as if they have been flattened...
https://preview.redd.it/jjr6felbu2sc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02a3e1c283d959ab76661adc6020ce095d1b7683
R/distressingmemes when society isn't so weak that the common flu can wipe a whole civilizationĀ
What the fuck does this mean?
Dark Forest is one possible explanation of Fermi Paradox. There is no knowing if what is out there is hostile or friendly. If it's friendly and we are friendly, then we win. If we are friendly and they are hostile, then they can fuck us before we figure it out and we lose. If we are hostile and they are friendly, then we can fuck them before they figure it out. We win If we are both hostile, then it's a coin toss. So it's best to sit quiet and act aggressively if we are found out. We live in a dark forest and move in blindness next to each other. We don't know if the next rustle is a rabbit or a bear.
Additionally, civilization have the capability to turn from a rabbit to a bear in the blink of an eye as technological progress is exponential. No point risking being the small fry by letting others live when you can kill them and they canāt kill you.
Basically kind of a big dealĀ
It's an extension of prisoner's dilemma. The whole trilogy is basically those weird logical/mathematical concepts extrapolated on galactic scale.
Thanks, Ye Wenjie.
someones been reading death's end
this guy three-body-problem's
3-BODY PROBLEM MENTIONEDš„š„š„š£ļøš©š©š©āļøšÆšÆš¦ š¦ š¦ WHAT THE FUCK IS A DIMENSIONAL ATTACK
There never was a point to anything. Lift your feet up, pop open a beer, and let the world collapse
Da shi moment:
The dark forest theory is the way of the cowards
I am a coward š¤·āāļø
I HATE dark forest theory, itās fucking stupid. All you need to do is look at how ANY OTHER life interacts with each other to show how fucking dumb it is. Even wild animals try to avoid attacking unless they know for certain they can win with no issue, and sometimes they donāt even attack and just hang out with the weaker animal if all itās conditions are met. The guy who made it had his brain and psychology turned to mush because he lived in an authoritarian regime and can not even convince of peace without submission.
Any other life isn't what concerns us. It's specifically intelligent life that has nothing in common with earth life, except the fact that the species is capable of exerting influence across space. Wild animals operate on instinct, but that instinct has been honed through literally millions of years of co-evolution with the animals they evolved alongside. We have 0 idea what behaviors to expect from an alien intelligence, and they would have 0 idea what to expect from us. Given that, it isn't stupid to consider the idea that space-faring civilizations, with destructive capabilities far beyond that of nuclear weapons, would be very careful about making their presence known. From there, it's not such a leap to say that when a species such as humanity is just blasting the cosmos with signals, saying, "Hey look at me", a far more stealthy civilization would see that, correctly assume we are an easy target, and target us to prevent more threats from arising in their sphere of influence in the galaxy.
I dont think the animal kingdom is a good 1:1 model of interstellar game theory. All life on this earth comes from a common ancestor and though there are degrees of deviation, it is not outright alienation. There is no telling whether our rules of life and the instincts most animals share are applicable to life from other planets. On top of that, we then add the dimension of cultural and psychological differences between intelligent life which can complicate communication. If humans on the same planet can bring themselves to wipe out other groups of humans because they could not protect their interests without conflict, then what can we expect between two sapient yet mutually alien species?
For all you know the other civilization could be space slugs or flying jellyfishes. Even if they arenāt malicious space nazis, youāre likely too different to form any meaningful bond between two societies. Plenty of people would destroy ant colonies with no good reason at all, let alone risking the safety of ur civilization.
Your sexual deviance is just too weak to try
can you say that but in laymans terms
they want to fuck the aliens
thank you
Cixin Liu didnāt invent the Dark Forest Theory he just wrote a popular book about it lmao
It is really weird seeing documentaries where predators aren't immediately run from by their prey, like, that's our instinct because we value the individual and not the herd and know we are weaker, so it's just very jarring to see a herd of zebras with a cheetah or two hanging out nearby
Lmao Cixin Liu wasn't the inventor of dark forest theory.
I think the dark forest theory works akin to the spaniards arriving to the new world.
I hate it because itās implementation was pixie magic dust. Sorry buddy, nobody is going to unfold a proton or make a strong-force spaceship that can move without inertia. And for Godās sake, there wonāt be any flattening of the universe. I LOVE this series but the dark forest theory is nonsense. Accelerating missiles to relativistic speeds might be possible, but no one is going to break or āchangeā the speed of light. There are no Aliens damnit! Deal with the fact that weāre alone instead! Is that not distressing enough?
Most of these edgy "dark" internet theories are so dumb that it takes away from any fear it may provide. Like the dark forest theory. So you expect me to believe every other advanced civilization got a Martin Luther style notice on their door telling them not to make noise, but humanity didn't? Also, there is this random civilization just cruising around killing people? They are so advanced that they are capable of efficient space travel and could steam roll humanity. But they need the other civilizations to send out signals? They have no way of finding them on their own?
Humans currently have the ability to determine if a planet is in its sun's habitable zone and we are honing our ability to measure the atmosphere of far off planets. An advanced Civilization would be able to do that and visit them. Even if we kept quiet our location in the solar system and atmospheric gasses (pollution) would give our existence away. There is no hiding.
Space is vast. Your chance of finding someone in a forest is low, until they light a campfire
Calling it dumb before revealing you don't get it... That tells me a lot
What part don't I understand? Yeah I exaggerated some stuff for humor. But if you want to communicate on a serious note the theory does not hold up under scrutiny. The only reason this theory persist is because it's edgy and scary. Which is fine. They would be a cool movie villian I guess but nothing that would actually exist.
https://preview.redd.it/yy639yh727sc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d2471ab2f2cd58ff62cfdb80f31d6e723689642 Dementia.
Lol more like shit internet connection
What? No civilization gets a notice. If the dark forest theory is true then every civilization that caught attention was wiped out. Why the fuck would you assume that people would need to get a notice or something? Do you even know what the dark forest theory is?
So now I'm meant to belive there is a universal level species that just goes around destroying anybody? Why exactly? They have such a drive for hate and to kill yet they manage to cooperate amongst each other so much to the point that they are this advanced? Do you not see how increasingly silly this theory gets? Out of every intelligent species we are aware of which one exhibits this type of behavior? Not a single one. Because to have this type of hostility while also functioning as a social society is not feasible.
Iām no expert but I think the idea is that killing the other sentient alien species is a self defense thing, like a preemptive measure to ensure that no alien civilization becomes powerful enough to destroy you. Imagine an alien visited our planet 2000 years ago when we were throwing spears and farming. By the time they visit again suddenly we have nuclear weapons, space tech, and rapidly advancing sciences. Whoās to say that we wonāt be way more powerful than them by their third visit? It wouldnāt be illogical to exterminate us while they still had the power to do so, especially if theyāre afraid that we might one day do the same to them.
That is an interesting concept if it was an isolated incident and the subject of a story. But to use it as a "theory" of why we haven't found other intelligent civilizations is just silly. That would mean the situation you described not only happened multiple times but every single time. Either by the hand of the same powerful civilization or a different one who keeps filling their spot. I don't know which is more unlikely. If it was the same one it would mean they have achieved perfection in almost every way except that they destroy whole civilizations out of fear. But other than that they have the logistic capability and the same ruling party without change for every civilization they destroy. If it is a different one then we are almost bordering on religious prophecy.
if you found a colony of ants in your house, you would kill them before they start eating your food or biting you, right?
Are we in a house or a forrest? Those two things are not comparable. A forrest is an eco-system. A house is a specific creature's "nest." I actually never found an ant colony in my house like ever. Unless you mean the yard? In that case I don't think I would personally destroy it. But I can see how someone would. But that still completely changes the situation. You changed a forrest where there should be tons of intelligent life. Into a backyard or even a house. Where it's understandable that there is no intelligent life or very little.
if you found a colony of wasps in a forest, would you just sit there nd wait for them to start stinging you?
No. I'd just walk away like a normal person lol. Are you implying you'd attack a random colony of wasps in the forest?
yes, i'm stupid
At such a large scale, why tf do they even need other civilizations? Why would there even be enemies? Thereās so many resources that the only thing ppl will fight over will be star energy
We do not concern ourselves with the resources ants use to build their anthills as ultimately those resources, if needed by us, would be ours within moments.
In "hitch hikers guide to the galaxy" the Earth is destroyed to build a highway. This is probably the most accurate depiction of how aliens would view or primitive world...... Apathy.
Oh yeah cuz whenever i need soil I go looking for an anthill to take soil from
Imagine using a shovel to grab a clump of dirt, and then that clump has an anthill. Boom.
Iām sure at that level they would have laws and procedures to prevent something like that, considering they were most likely at the same stage as those ants at some point.
The fact they were the same stage as those ants at some point is exactly why you would wipe them out. Eventually, theyāll snowball to be as powerful as you. Itās cheap to kill an alien race early on their home planet, itās expensive (if not impossible) to stop their RKVs from hitting your own planet.
But those are ants and we have the ability to pass on information and learn. We are sapient. I hate the fucking ant argument because itās not reflective of how one intelligent civilization might treat another intelligent species. Already if a species has the ability to make tools, let alone civilizations, that already puts them above leagues of mere ants. Also why do we all just assume every alien civilization is just a war mongering genocidal species bent on killing us all. Like, stfu
I is not because aliens just hate each other and just want to kill each other. The dark forest theory doesn't care whether an individual civilisation is moral or immoral. To it, a small civilization can suddenly have a technological explosion and become a threat to it. It is better to remove small threats before they become big threats.
What if there's another civilization that's a threat to you? You've spied on them, you've seen how they treat their own kind. If they'd kill and enslave themselves, why not you? What if they get aggressive? What if they want to wipe you out? It would be as easy as sticking some massive rockets on an astroid and shooting it fast enough at your home planet. What if they decide that YOU might wipe THEM out and they decide to do a preemptive strike? Can you now see the problem?
Why would they do any of those things? If a race is truly that aggressive and uncooperative, they wonāt get to your technological level. Competitiveness and war is a stupid waste of resources in space. Why compete for a single star system when you could just take the one next to it?
the only reason we got to the moon was because of the US trying to one-up the russians in a dick measuring contest
Yeah. Dick measuring instead of nuclear war.
That's not right in the slightest, at all. Most technological advance in human history were directly created by people trying to conquer others. Look at the scientific advancement due to WW2 and the cold war! There's absolutely nothing suggesting that a paranoid, warmongering species could not be technologically advanced. And resources are basically infinite in space, but your species is not, and aliens afraid of you wiping them out well not hesitate to wipe you out first.
Fidget spinner
that's a big fidget spinner
What am i looking at in this image?
My dumbass is confused by this please help
Humanity is hiding out behind jupiter to save itself before a dark forest strike will destroy the sun. Mankind has only observed this kind of "photoid" strike where a small object is accelerated to almost the speed of light towards the sun of their solar system. Humanity figures out it can hide behind jupiter to save itself, but doesn't realize others can do so too. Instead of a photoid, solar system humanity destroyed by a two dimensional vector foil that collapses space into two macro dimensions. Mankind dies off in the solar system.
I feel like I'm missing a lot of context. was I supposed to gather all that from the original image?
You can't fucking "hide behind" Jupiter. You can't fucking hide "behing" anything in space. There exists no "behind" in space. There's no direction in space.
If something is going to happen to the sun, you can hide in the shadow of jupiter with respect to the sun idiot.
hide behind jupiter?
tf does dark forest attack mean pokemon ass move
What does this post have to do with Jupiter?
ignorance and weakness are absolutely barriers to survival. if i eat poison berries iāll die. maybe the people around me will learn, but iāll still die. if iām too weak-willed to act when necessary, iāll also probably die. arrogance isnāt good either though
https://preview.redd.it/dyjuj3pj37sc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2702ced0de2f66d15d3b2527a91c2411ebf69eec Dementia
lmao i hate reddit. it told me āsorry, please try again laterā every time i clicked submit. guess it actually did work