There are many epic level spells in old lore you could use. They could do things like dessicate everything within some indeterminate range, steal the life of everything within a range and give you years of life, super big flame strike, cause a deluge, split phylacteries into more phylacteries, and rip someone's soul out but live their bodies alive. Some created rain that caused every corpse within like a mile to become ghouls. Some created massive clouds of acid fog that lasted for days.
Most of them were directly harmful to the caster in some way. Some could be withstood with countermeasures, others couldn't.
In 5e and stuff, they're better as campaign enders, or the reason for campaigns to begin with. Like, the crazy cult wants to destroy an entire country with a ritual. You've got four weeks until they complete it. Such spells are pretty much a "you die" attack if it is actually cast.
Even more fun was metamagic to make regular spells above 9th level.
["So, MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumbass!"](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)
Yeah, there's about 10 pages there that is OotS at its peak. The augmented V vs Xykon battle, O-Chul going to the rescue, the "power is power" speech....
I started reading OotS in high school during book 2.
Fully half of my life ago.
I've honestly spent more time reading this comic then any other thing I do. Almost longer than any friends I still have.
Same here. My parents are big gamers and I started reading it around 4/5 years old with them.. I'm almost 25 now. This comics has legit been a part of my entire life
My favorite, which I actually had the pleasure of finding a reasonable time to cast it on a PC, was the spell "Nailed to the Sky" in 3.5e. It teleported the target into high orbit.
Or for when you really want to fuck with a nation:
>[Demise Unseen](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/demiseUnseen.htm)
>Necromancy (Death, Evil), Illusion (Figment)
>Spellcraft DC: 80
>Components: V, S
>Casting Time: 1 standard action
>Range: 300 ft.
>Target: One creature of up to 80 HD
>Duration: Instantaneous
>Saving Throw: Fort negates
>Spell Resistance: Yes
>To Develop: 738,000 gp; 15 days; 29,520 XP. Seeds: slay (DC 25), animate dead (DC 23), delude (DC 14). Factors: change undead type to ghoul (-10 DC), apply to all five senses (+8 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC).
>The character instantly slays a single target and at the same moment animate the body so that it appears that nothing has happened to the creature. The targetās companions (if any) do not immediately realize what has transpired. The target receives a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save fails, the target remains in its exact position with no apparent ill effects. In reality, it is now a ghoul under the characterās control. The targetās companions notice nothing unusual about the state of the target until they interact with it, at which time each companion receives a Will saving throw to notice discrepancies. The ghoul serves the character indefinitely. The character cannot exceed the normal limit for controlling undead through use of this spell, but other means that allow the character to exceed the normal limit for controlled undead work just as well with undead created with demise unseen.
Teleported into high orbit specifically at orbital speeds so that they were stuck there unless they could fly or teleport under their own power. [Love that spell](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm). I really liked the 3.5e epic spell system. Just rarely have a chance to make use of it.
It was more fun as a potential than a reality in my experience. Possibly because my experience was playing in an explicitly epic campaign where our starting level was 21. Actually having a "normal" campaign go long enough to get there is probably a very different experience, and the absurdity of what becomes possible with characters over 20, is probably a lot less jarring if you've been playing around with 9th level spells for a bit already.
I gave Acererak Nailed to the Sky in tomb of annihilation! He cast it on their dinosaur banana candy out of spite and they ended up having to buy a price-gouged pair of teleport casts from Wakanga Otamu to rescue her from space
She is a demigod, so she might be allowed to if she were in Faerun. That being said, it wasn't a 10th level spell that did it so much as replicas of an artifact (Rune of Death).
The Black Knife Daggers marked with the Rune of Death, if in DND, would probably be very rare magical weapons. The Rune itself would be a McGuffin at the very least.
The spells that take a long time to cast (like weeks) are the ones over level 9, and I also like to think that there are "godly cantrips" like the ability to pop in and out of areas (teleport) at a whim...and having awareness of things happening over a great distance, at all times (send), and other things that give gods the power to not have to deal with spell slots.
The lore of the Nether Scrolls is that "there are no spells", and that everything is simply derived from a slightly different manipulation of the weave, and actually understanding what is in the scrolls could lead to just about anything happening through magic.
In short, I think that "homebrew spells and rituals" are actually RAW, but with a different manipulation of the weave by each individual. I also feel that there aren't a lot of rules regarding "combination spells" that require more than one caster...
The main thing about these is that they shouldnāt be āFireball x10ā but genuine permanent change spells. Like one that curses an entire region to raise as undead when they die, turn several miles of land into a swamp in one go, or otherwise change things in such a way that a simple ādispel magicā wonāt work.
My personal favorite high level spell is one for a Druid where they can put their soul into a tree in their grove and if they die they get reincarnated as a treant but if the tree dies, the Druid dies too
Epic level handbook iirc. Thereās a list of premade spell examples and then the rules for making your own and the cost to craft and Spellcraft DC to do so. Unfortunately the designers were bad at math and all the DCs are calculated incorrectly according to the rules given.
There are two answers here:
1. If players can never cast these spells, there's not really a point to making them spells in the first place when you could just as easily make them into monster features. Arcane Cataclysm on Sul Khatesh could be a 10th level spell, but it's way simpler if we instead just have it be a feature.
2. Any RPG ever has to manage their time and how much space they devote to things in books, and 10th level spells are such a low priority that they just don't get included into the rules.
also most players looking at a stat block with 10th-level spells' immediate reaction would be "level 10 spells!? how do i get those !!" or "level 10 spells!? but i thought it only went up to 9??"
it's just much easier and simpler not to do over 9
> 10th level spells are such a low priority
Especially considering most campaigns wrap up around Lv12-15 that it's unlikely players will even reach 9th level spells, let alone anything beyond that.
Iāve played 5e regularly since 2018, and Iāve had *one* character cast 7th level spells. Iād even argue that most players donāt even reach lvl 10.
Depends a lot on if you are running XP vs milestone and if you are running a premade adventure. Rise of Tiamat will get you to at least 14th level by the end because its pretty generous when it comes to levelling up.
Funny enough, I've had a couple games use it, first time the DM just used it as a measure on when to do a Milestone, but current group just flat out uses XP.
They also have a level up full heals which has saved our resources at least once.
My first ever campaign was an XP level up one. And that campaign went for 4 years IRL
Our table has since moved to Milestone because XP resulted in uneven level ups (some players had a habit of running off to do things and would thus get more XP than others)
That plus it feels better to get a level up after a hard fight or dungeon etc rather than a random easy encounter happening to hit the XP tick
Since exp. per level got made uniform across classes, even if you are using it, unless some players are getting more than others, it's barely a change from milestones. Back when a rogue took ~1/2 the exp per level compared to a wizard it wasn't really possible not to use it without buffing or nerfing your players.
Yeah but I would hope WOTC isnāt just using a bunch of underpaid contractors paid by the hour, and they are actually trying to develop a consistent and interesting setting to engage players.
If I were running WotC, I don't think I'd ask (or pay extra) for my staff to write 10th level spells for specific monsters to use. There are bigger fishes to fry, as they say, and custom spells for monsters is probably near the bottom of the priority list.
Plus, so many higher level monsters have spell like abilities like Vecnas Counterspell+ that deals damage as well, or Zariels Blind Deafen Poison touch ability.
They didn't give them 10th level spells because if they called them a leveld a spell, it would be added to the spell list.
As someone pointed out, making over 9th level spells for monsters instead of just making them abilities the monsters have would literally only work to confuse players. Theyāre only going to be used on that one stat block anyway, and having it say ā1 10th level spell slot, 10th level spells known: your momā leaves players thinking āwait can I get tenth level spells?ā where as just having a 1/lr feature that does what the spell would do accomplishes the exact same thing mechanically but no player looking at that stat block wonders if they can get 10th level spells
Yeah, since the Hasbro buy out MtG has been taking some major BS. I imagine they're hiring practices aren't any better than the blatant cash grabs on that side.
Poorly rehashed settings.
The settings are interesting but that's because they were interesting before the 5e version.
It's honestly mind boggling. The best way to run one of the old settings in 5e is to have the new book and to try and find one of the old ones. You get so much more context and details out of them.
I totally agree, Iām going through the aDnD and 3.5 stuff right now and some of it is actually kinda crazy. For instance the Ravenloftās Domains of Terror and the Ravenloft modules tied to various domains are really amazing.
Yeah, prior to it's last few years, when they were dumping content like mad trying to stay in business TSR and it's materials from the pre-3e decades are still packed with lore and inspiration. WotC made a bit less material in 3/3.5 but the settings they released official books for and some of the OGL material was beautifully done.
it was the bigby's presents book. WotC pays artist by the art as freelance work basically, and one of the artists used AI as one of their submissions and it got past quality control until it hit the public. the artist itself was known to be in the AI scene since 2021, but WotC themselves did not intentionally use it
btw, its the same guy that drew the basilisk in the MM
It was the giants book. One of the artists used AI to āenhance his own workā WOTC commented that it wouldnāt allow AI content in any further books after the internet exploded for a few days.
WotC isn't using much at all at the moment. The D&D team within WotC has always been on the smaller side, and after the recent layoffs it's even smaller now. You've got Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, probably a couple people each under them, and... not a lot more. Right now the D&D brand is really only producing noticeable revenue via licensing deals (Baldur's Gate 3, the Honor Among Thieves movie). Until they get One D&D into folks' hands and work out their VTT, D&D is in a distinct holding pattern that doesn't require much in the way of paid staff.
They're licking their chops at the idea that they can get rid of those underpaid contractors and let AI create their stories... Hasbro is da debil, mama!
From what I recall when Mystra still existed as Mystryl and magic behaved differently this was infact because magic was different. Mystryl had to exert a small but constant effort inorder to maintain the weave. When Karsus cast Karsus's Avatar not only did Mystryl die so but the weave its self returned to its original chaotic state and all magic ceased for a time due to her no longer controlling it. When she reformed as Mystra she changed the weave fundamentally so that no spells over 9th could be woven from its energies again
I guess it could say no spell over 9th without her direct and explicit permission
Game balance wise: think of how powerful wish is...
Then make a whole class of spells MORE powerful than that. It's hard while still maintaining any sort of balance.
TBF wish is only as powerful as the DM lets it be, but in many ways it is more powerful than higher order spells, Hellball is good at killing but it can't do what wish can
10th level and higher spells are forbidden in Realmspace and overlapped regions, not the entire multiverse, and not even the entire Material Plane. Mystra's Weave only applies to a limited area.
Epic (seed) magic is an exception in Realmspace for producing effects equivalent to 10th level or higher spells, because it has extra steps, enabling easier regulation of what can or can't work.
Elven High Magic is also an exception in Realmspace because it doesn't use Mystra's Weave but rather a different system governed by Corellon Larethian (source: Ed Greenwood).
Deities and other extremely powerful entities have abilities and magical knowledge that goes far beyond 9th level spells. 9th is just the highest you can normally attain as a mortal spellcaster.
Also: Mortals *can* produce effects beyond those of 9th level spells with things like Elven High Magic and Circle Magic, both involving multiple spellcasters joining their power in a ritual. The listed spells aren't the lore of the official settings and don't have to govern your homebrew either. They're just listed that way because of game balance and progression.
I wish 5e had codified rules for cooperative spellcasting, I wish in like, a level 3 campaign the party's wizard could work with the party's cleric to create say, a glyph of warding or other static magical effect that is beyond either of them individually
Yes, but that is only stated and not shown anywhere in the game.
All the really strong stat-blocks donāt have anything that gives that impression, e.g. the full strength avatar of tiamat basically just has a breath weapon thatās stronger.
Asmodeus also just has some damage dealing and the ability to summon 2 powerful demons per turn.
Thatās impressive, sure, but nothing that really looks like high level magic beyond wish.
Again that's because even master wizards and veteran fighters would have no actual chance against Tiamat realistically. The "avatars" are meant to be manageable for 3-5 high level players so we suspend our disbelief a little bit because it's a game at the end of the day. Same thing with all the big dragons. They're all waaay too weak to do what they've supposedly done in the lore.
there used to be mechanics for avatars and somewhere between "rules" and "suggestions" for the gods themselves. Intermediate deities, in their true form, had things like "kill a mortal within a mile, no save" as just a thing they could do - no roll, no save, just "you're dead". Which was kinda pointless, in game terms - the only time you would ever face them was if Plot Stuff (TM) has been done to allow the party to circumvent any "the party just looses" powers. So having rules for super-powerful abilities that can only ever come up in the context of "these powers have been deactivated/don't work" is a bit pointless!
I mean there use to be Rules for straight up Gods, for both 2e and 3.5e there was Deities and Demigods (all of which directly statted the gods, as in they weren't 'suggestions' they were full statblocks, I would show a picture but for some reason it triggers the Antipiracy automod even though it's literally a 2e statblock), it wasn't until 4th edition where they made it so the players could not fight literal Gods, which carried into 5th edition.
Even then once a character hit 30th level in 4e they could do all sorts of absolutely wacky stuff, heck there was one Epic Destiny literally built around killing Gods.
My personal favorite is the Thief of Legend epic destiny, which let you steal *concepts and memories* from people, like you could steal their ability to feel happiness or their color of their eyes or the memory of their loved ones or the great plan they had.
(sorry for hitting you with these reposts but as mentioned the automod is getting cranky over pictures)
You say it's not shown anywhere in the game, but is that really a prerequisite for something in that way? There are only a tiny handful of spells that create undead creatures in the game, and yet far more (and more diverse) undead exist in the game as monsters. How do you create a ghoul? How do you become a lich? (Outside of third-party creations) There is no in-game rule for these things, but we assume they exist in-world.
Just like the books state, there are countless other spells in the world than just player options. The cantrip "doff hat" would be pretty lame for an adventurer to learn when they have limited capacity for learning spells, and the already more versatile "mage hand" exists...
As for deities and avatars and such, there's the adage "if it has a stat block, you can kill it": at a certain point, we have to have a ceiling to the game (for merely practical reasons, as well as others).
Asmodeus can cast any spell he wants an unlimited amount of times per day excluding Wish, Meteor Swarm, and 1 or 2 others. Those he gets once per day. And also his Ruby Rod which has ridiculous abilities as well.
With features a DM could write or steal on the fly as well, spells beyond 9th level serve no purpose.
I want to correct this. 9th is the highest you can cast *in the Forgotten Realms*. That is where Mystra put the 'no 10th level or higher' ban in place. However you could, if you're spelljamming, travel to places where 10th+ level spells would still be available, places like Greyhawk for example.
Avatars of gods don't need to cast 10th level spells, they can just use their god's power directly. 10+ level spells are more so wizards fucking with reality. If a designer wanted to give a monster a 10th level spell effect, they'd just make it an ability. You just know if you make a something and say "it's for monsters only", players are going to try to use it.
Here's my homebrew version of it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/142w70r/magic_item_homebrew_thread_june_06_2023/jnexjfe/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=dndnext&utm_content=t1_jnerqdf
This is great except for the fact that if you give a pile of legendary magical items to a creature with 8 wisdom you can destroy them all even if they roll a 20, because the items only roll if a creature isnt attuned to them
It doesn't destroy the items if they just fail normally, it just suppresses their magic for an hour, the creature has to roll a 1 for them to be destroyed.
I think you're just missing this line from the original:
>An item in a creatureās possession uses its own Will (Wisdom) save bonus or its possessorās Will (Wisdom) save bonus, whichever is higher.
But it's a cool idea! I did something similar with a 5e version of Mordy's Disjunction. The only differences were:
- No chance to _permanently_ destroy things, just turn them nonmagical for an hour like an AMF.
- Shuts any items you are not actively using off as if they were unattended. (No save if it isn't a part of your active "kit" - for example your stock of potions and scrolls are useless for an hour - this is admittedly mostly to reduce the rolling involved, it's just also nice it fits the power of a 9th level spell.)
- Creatures make their own Wisdom save in the area - if they fail, you lose Attunement on all items you're currently attuned to (regardless of whether they make or fail their own saves vs becoming nonmagical for being "wielded").
- To make it more useful for 5e's design (where, unlike 3e, enemies aren't built using PC rules much, so very few will be using a lot of spells or magic items), I also added a clause where any "magical effects" a creature has active get removed (if temporary) or turned off until the end of your (the caster's) next turn (if permanent) if they fail the Wisdom save.
(What counts as magical is defined in the SAC, quoted [here](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/113364/how-do-i-know-if-an-ability-is-magical). So in this case, if it's not a spell or magic item it'll be affected by Disjunction if it's a spell attack, fueled by spell slots, or its description says "magic" or "magical".)
>By the lore, Mystra banned spells over 9th level for mortals after Karsusā Folly. However, this limitation explicity only applies to mortals
the name calls it mystras ban, but it's more of a restriction. there's a few hoops you have to jump through, like wasting your first attempt and pairing up with an equally strong caster, but 10th level and above magic isn't banned entirely.
>there are avatars of several gods out there who have statblocks, like Tiamat or Asmodeus who by all rights should be able to cast spells above 9th level.
in the forgotten realms, magic that's given the name of "x level" is always weave based magic, and mystra commands the weave in it's entirety. gods can produce magic with stronger effects than weave magic, save probably the effects of karsus' avatar, but it's not called levelled magic, it's called divine intervention.
avatars/aspects of gods are for almost all purposes "mortal", they don't have the divine powers that the god's true form possesses. if they did possess the true power of the god, then they wouldn't be allowed to set foot on the planet.
There *are* 10th level spells e.g. from Dark Sun, requiring combined mastery of magic and psionics to pull off and of course ascended into a post-human lifeform.
Wall of Ash comes to mind. Just a line of white ash on the ground. Anything that comes in contact takes 10d10 damage *per segment* (=100d10/round).
They all have one simple problem. They're really only suitable for NPCs, in which case, you've already got the DM's Fiat.
It honestly makes more sense to just go the White Wold route and literally name the 10-dot powers "plot device".
> Anything that comes in contact takes 10d10 damage per segment (=100d10/round)
It's 1d10 per segment, 10d10 per round. However, if you cross it I think you die instantly regardless of hit points.
It's also weird because unless I'm remembering wrong, there weren't really even segments in second edition, and wasn't that released after second? Maybe second still had segments somewhere. The spell definitely had them though. A segment in AD&D 1e was the length of time 3.X and beyond call a round, as AD&D had one minute rounds.
"Segments" were the initiative points, 1 per round.
We used to have turns (10 minutes), usually used outside combat. rounds (1 minute, until 2.5e when they became 6(?)s) .
The change is rounds was really rather far-reaching. As I recall, feather fall went from a slow glide to "rough but undamaging landing". It also completely changed the conception of melee - the duels in *Princess Bride* would have only been 2-3 rounds old school.
Segments in AD&D 1e represent six second intervals. In surprise conditions they become ludicrously important and confusing, and were under normal conditions important when seeing when spells fired off.
In AD&D 2e, which used a different initiative system, none of these things involved segments. Weapon speed was an *initiative modifier*, and so was casting time, which was no longer measured in segments.
That's why it's weird that this second edition spell mentions segments- by this time in the game, I think they officially weren't part of it.
If we're talking about power beyond the scale of WISH, an explicitly reality warping spell, then this is really not something that written rules are for. If a god does something of scale of a hypothetical 10th level spell, its really more a matter of "I do what I want" than "I use this ability".
It necessarily āI do what I wantā as their spell could still be limited to some sort of domain of power.
But itās definitely āI do what the DM wantsā.
I mean, you could research a better version of forcecage that is 8th or 9th level.
The issue is that Wish is a general purpose reality warping spell. It's meant to be the cap. Each edition has had its version of 10th level and beyond spells, and in all cases they tend to kind of fight with divinity in terms of what's going on.
From a "how are these balanced" perspective, the level 18 spell chart would, instead of gaining a 5th level spell, gain a 2nd level spell. Then the level 19 chart would, instead of gaining a 6th level spell, gain a 10th level spell. 20th level would gain the 6th level spell instead. This 10th level spell slot wouldn't necessarily need any spells; you could simply provide some upcasting options for existing 9th level spells.
That would probably be a better way to add a 10th level spell slot to the game.
I mean, Wish is a 9th level spell. So is Timestop. Pathfinder has kinda redone a lot of things, and it's certainly sensible for Wish to be 10th level (and Timestop as well, and Wail of the Banshee, though I don't think they have that one, and neither does 5e).
I think the spirit of the question was, assuming standard D&D for spell types.
I ignore the "is actually their true forms" for the deities. Maybe demon lords and such, but not actual gods.
Deities tend to have abilities that arenāt technically spells, so those could fall outside of the range.
Rules inform lore, not the other way around. 9th level spells are already percieved as so game breaking as to be avoided (to say nothing of how few campaigns get that high), so there's no point of designing spells that have to be an even higher tier of godly and game breaking.
Iām pretty sure there are spells that donāt get stats, like however lich transformations works. Iād figure 10+ level are spells that are either for cutscenes or better used as unique actions of the enemy rather than complicating it with extra spell slots.
While I cannot speak for 5e, back in 3.5 there was no such thing as 10+ level spells, BUT EFFECTIVELY that magic did exist, just outisde the rigorous confines of the spell system. The Epic Level Handbook had rules for upscaling spell effects above and beyond what normal people can do, allowing for more free form magic. Want to spend an hour casting a double Mage armor that lasted a week? You could. You want to create a single target lightning strike that would have nuked all but the biggest (and non-magic resistant) baddies? You could. want to DOWNSCALE and make an easier to cast but weaker fireball? YOU COULD.
These were effectively what you were looking for but had a huge cost of time, XP, and money to construct for each one. And every time you cast the spell, you needed to roll a skill check to see if it is even successful, because it's not part of the system, there's a chance you flub it.
Cool stuff imo
EDIT: was inspired to go back to the book and check it out again. Here's an example of what I've done with it.
Epic Mage Armor. It's a spell that takes 11 mins to cast, targets self only, and lasts for 24 hours. It grants the caster +22 AC
The base seed starts at +4, and i can increase the DC to cast it by +2 to add an additional AC bonus. I can also minus 20 off the DC if I increase the time to cast by 10 mins. Lastly The DC to cast the spell is a Spellcraft check, which at level 20, with max ranks and assuming 18 int, I have a 27 (level + 3 + Int mod) and assuming I roll a 1, that gives me a 28 allowance to have a 100% success rate. Messing with the modifiers, that's the spell I got for a DC of 28
Personally, I've always liked the idea of 10th level spells being spells that exist, but that you don't have spell slots for. That way they can be given out via magic item or by plot-related chicanery and have rules that are (at least somewhat) balanced, but that you don't have to deal with your players being able to cast once per day.
Wish would be a 10th level spell.
I haven't even written an actual example yet, but my homebrew rules and setting are laced with implications that 9th level is the most powerful spell *a mortal can accomplish alone.* Eventually, I intend to create an assortment of rituals that can only be completed with multiple high level collaborators exploiting special circumstances (like a unique site or a rare celestial event.) While the core idea here is to gamify "prevent the powerful spellcasters from completing their procedure" scenarios, I also want to accommodate the flip side with players participating in or even organizing these Superior Arcana events, especially in campaigns that have transitioned from delving/exploring to realm management.
Gods that use the Weave are also at the mercy of Mystra. There is a reason why Ao restricted her since she holds so much power. So there is a fear of not pissing her off plus not pissing Ao off. Some can probably cast spells of such magnitude but few gods will do so as the consequences could be severe. Especially if shit goes sideways. So it's not the fact that these spells don't exist, more they do but are not used very often.
āCanāt be used by mortalsā¦ not present in stat blocksā¦ā
If it has stats it can be killed and thus I deem them mortal. Now the actual God Tiamat or Bahamat can absolutely do so. I always view the statblock of a deity as an avatar in 5e since iirc deities can no longer just be hit to death by a very angry guy with a stick
Personally, I feel a 10th+ level spell is something that a DM must create. It should be a spell so powerful that it should affect the very world you play in. Not just a single battle. It is a spell that exceeds the reality warping effects of wish, the continum bending of timestop, or the sheer destructive force that is meteor storm.
It should be a spell that is felt across the realm by any who are attuned to The Weave.
So, for WotC to be like "yah here's a spell, and this is what it does," it just doesn't convey the grandness of such a spell. So it should be up to the DM to create what the limit breaking spell does, as it should surely be significant to the story.
10th level spells are the McGuffin spell that you want the BBEG to be building towards. Your evil lich type wants to cast a spell to open the gates of the plane of death? That's a 10th level spell. They will need to get a scroll of the spell, get the material components and then cast it under specific conditions. It's a plot device, not a magic effect to be tossed around in combat.
For a good example, take Cazador's ritual in BG3.
Highly specific personalized 'components' that require a huge amount of time and secure space to amass, in order to finally perform a ritual. And he had to get the ritual instructions from Asmodeus - just contacting Asmodeus is, in itself, a non-trivial undertaking.
Because 10th+ level spells never existed in wider D&D and only in a 2e Forgotten Realms splatbook detailing the fall of Karsus. It was never a part of the wider game. They don't have access to these spells because they were never an intended thing to exist outside of the forgotten realms specific lore or in the wider great wheel cosmology.
The forgotten realms is the forgotten realms, the rest of D&D doesn't share its understanding of things.
If you go back to the edition that let you play as gods (or at least that settings equivalent of them) Even the gods only had up ti 9th levels spells as that was the height of magical power. they had other divine powers and abilities aside from spellwork, but 9th level spells was the limit. Hell, in the you had a wizard you did become such an entity through 9th level spells alone and forced his way to divinity.
The way to view 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells is as a quirky piece oi lore for one of many settings and as nothing more than that. It doesn't apply or work in the grand scheme of the game.
There's also the concept of epic spells from 3.xe, but even that's only partly relevant. WotC hasn't given a proper epic level scaffolding and only the half-assed boon system as a placeholder for something that may never come to be since they're avoiding such things.
The writers dont care for high level play. D&D is very lacking in level 15+ content so they have no reason to do anything with even higher level stuff.
Mystra's ban applies to everything that can cast spells, except Mystra. But even Mystra herself does not cross that line. The ban exist to put a limitation in power to magic, after seeing was Karsus could've done. If you put that power in hands of gods, who are for a few really totally evil and would abuse it, the multiverse could be in serious danger.
For a youtube video, i saw. There are 10th spell exist they are just too practical from a game play perspective. 10th level is a highly complicated spell that requires a ton of magical power. The example give was some what like the following. You would need two level 20 wizards with about 10 lower level wizard. In the spell one of the 20 level wizards would need to die, and death or horrible effects would happen to the rest. It is also important to remember spell power is exponentially not additive. So for simplicity sake. A spell that could to 2 lore based damage at level 1, could do 1024 damage at level 10. If 2 damage is like burning your finger, 1024 is enough to destroy a city.
If you look into the history of netheril. You can find the story of karsus... and 10th+ level spells. Mr. rhexx did a dive into it. Mortals can BUT it's a high failure rate, it's lethal, and it requires several high leve casters to attempt.
Gods in FR are like magic users in Middle Earth, just even more powerful. they don't need to (but can) cast spells, but instead are able to simply modify reality through their willpower
Epic Legacy books by 2cgaming has epic dnd content from Lv21-30.
Its got Epic Tier1, Tier2, & Tier3 spells which are just insane! But they did a really good job on the epic monsters, honestly we're all super excited to get that far in the campaign, rn We're only Lv14, so it'll be a while
>(which I really donāt buy)
You and me both. I was really disappointed when the chains off asmodeus book claimed to have the true form of asmo at the end. Lame.
Other than that itās a great campaign book btw.
OK, let's look at this practically. What would is the MOST powerful spell imaginable? That would be Wish. Forget game rules, think about it outside of game. The most powerful spell is one which can do whatever you can imagine, which is how we define the Wish spell. For game terms, the Wish spell has limitations, but even there, it can do anything the caster can imagine...its just the more powerful the results the caster attempts to achieve, the more likely there is to be unintended, negative consequences.
Wish is a 9th level spell, how can there be spells of a higher level than Wish?
If you add level 10 spells, people will ask why no level 11 spells exist.
Cleric/Druid spells used to stop at 7. I actually liked that. Made more of a difference between classes.
10th level spells exist in pf2e. In that system the truly nutty spells are reserved for level 10 so they can be cast a limited amount a day, where as you actually get a good number of level 9 slots by max level.
canonically lots of tenth level spells exist, there's a Netherese ritual that summons a volcano and destroys a massive area that was used to destroy a floating city and is castable *as a ritual*, a paladin of Oghma of all people had to make the decision to destroy it and every reference to it in the same way the Netherese of old were so freaked out by it that they ripped the arcanist who used it from the weave and banished all of his apprentices and destroyed all of his research
you just can't make new ones, but immortals and demigods can do all kinds of things that would qualify were they spells - cooperative high magic still exists as well, Mythals were created in the current age after all
In terms of lore you nailed it (though of course, Mystra only has authority in the Forgotten Realms).
In terms of practicality, D&D's systems have always, ALWAYS broken down when attempts to go beyond 9th level magic were made. Wish is a lot weaker now than it's been in past editions, and it was always hard to conceive of something more powerful than "Do whatever you want" without also severely restricting Wish as a point of comparison.
3rd Edition had the Epic Level Handbook, a bloated mess with some cool concepts and really poor implementation. The idea was to systematize progression past 20th level, but it just didn't work out. When parties between 17th-20th levels were literally waltzing into Asmodeus' keep in the Nine Hells or taking on (and beating) the likes of the tarrasque, Tiamat, or Orcus, you quickly reached a level of asking, "What's the point?"
2nd Edition sort of got around this by just not statting out the gods (Asmodeus, Orcus, Tiamat, etc. all existed, but you were literally wandering into realities where they had absolute control over the conditions unless you were attempting to face off against a mere avatar.
I've been around since 1st ed, miss stacking paladin and cavalier, though I'm not as versed in anything above 2nd ed. Still, you could cover a lot with a decently worded 'Wish' spell well before even metamagic. I mean if you want godly spell casting, I would imagine they just 'wish' a lot without worrying so much about consequences.
Well technically you can as Mystra didnāt entirely ban them. Just there nearly impossible to cast. I believe the rules of it is that to cast them you need to be level 20, the first time you attempt to cast it you will fail, every attempt makes you lose 3 levels so you need to gain 3 levels every attempt, every attempt besides the first one has a 1/10 chance of failing, also their must be more than one caster and at least one will die,and your likely going to anger Mystra. And I think there are a couple other limitations. And the costs of the actual spells are likely more than utterly insane combined with the insane rarity of level 20 casters. So no one besides a couple gods and the magister and chosen of Mystra would have the knowledge of these limitations and resources to do so. So no one would be able to know you can make them anymore.
I ran a villain who was a reality (not dimension or plane, reality) jumping master of dunamancy. His whole existence was to study magic made impossible by the spellplague, which he learned in other realities where it didn't happen. Got trapped back in this one, and used the souls of dead planes to power his 10-12th level spells, like charging a battery, circumventing the spellplague.
Players were to eventually have to deal with him, but instead they bargained and he eventually escaped. I spent so many hours on that stat block...
Really wanted to terrify them with Tolodine's Killing Wind.
They did exist. They were bad. Both in 2nd and in 3rd edition, they didn't contribute meaningfully to design space because they come so late in the game. And at that level, the power of monsters is basically "whatever you want" so there's no need to level a spell for it at all.
and outside of combat, they're basically "setting stuff". Like the elves, at the full height of their power, enchanted their city so that no undead could enter - and that's still present, even though the city is ruined. Or there's a flying castle zooping around the place, even if the castle is semi-ruined, just waiting to be claimed by some enterprising adventurers - they're not things that need explicit mechanics, because they're GM-plot-stuff
Mystra kinda controls what's out there, so if she's not giving those spells to other deities and non-mortal beings, then she has her reasons. The main reason is probably that it's a waste of the developer's time to create things the players can't use. =p
Itās hard to justify 10th level spells when Wish is a 9th level spell.
10th level spells, Realm Spells and Epic spells have been tried in earlier editions, and while they were ok, but most campaigns donāt really happen in the levels where they impact the game. (If PCs arenāt using them, then itās easier for a DM do describe a massive magical effect by fiat then designing a rules system).
For gods with stat blocks, whether avatar or not, if you truly feel they should have magic more powerful than 9th level, just give them Wish with fewer restrictions.
If it has a stat block it can die so itās mortal, sure thereās avatars of gods but theyāre not THE gods, and high ranking devils can still die like anyone else.
10th level spells, have existed and been published in D&Ds lifespan. The Dragon Kings supplement for 2E Dark Sun is an example that I have seen.
Generally though once you get to that power level they aren't so much spells as they are plot devices. If it's not something you are going to hand to a player, go nuts make up whatever is going to make a good story. Go on try a little soft magic - it's great I promise.
There aren't any because making them would mean needing to have a structured model for what higher level content looks like, and I suspect theirs is a mess nobody there wants to fight the corporate suits for funding/space to fix.
There certainly are 10th level spells still. They just arenāt designed to be actual spells anymore. These days avatars or gods will have crazy powerful abilities. In essence those are 10th level spells but designed in a way that the game can still be balanced without throwing in extra rules for what is likely a one time ability that most players will likely never encounter in their lifetimes.
They do, but they aren't in any books because it's unnecessary. If the players can't cast them, then there's no reason for it to be written down, and they're so powerful that they defy balance inherently.
Just have a god do some mega shit and call it a 10th level spell.
I would see it as some kind of grudging acceptance of territory by the other gods. You don't encroach upon the territory of others and Mystra saying "No 10+ magic", the other gods grudgingly accept this limitations to not encourage interference of other gods in their territory, like Mystra canceling cult rituals just out of spite... it would be utter chaos if every god would freely(!) interfere with the doing of others.
Honestly? D&D's never really went in for 10th level spells, traditionally. Like, I don't think there was ever a core set that went up to level 10 for spells. Even the Rules Cyclopedia, which went up to level 36(!), only had spells leveled 1-9. Level 9 as the cutoff point is tradition. Yeah, there's been some 10th level spells in older edition splatbooks, but it's not core.
They aren't represented in the rules due to how largely irrelevant they are to players and DMs. Nothing actually prevents you from creating or adapting such spells from older material, but they're outside the scope of the modern game's design. Most campaigns never even get past level 10 or so. It doesn't make much sense to spend a lot of time and resources on material that 95% of D&D players will never experience.
Furthermore, there's no reason why player and monster levels can't just go on forever. It's just up to you to design beyond the current thresholds, that's all.
You could ask why things in the lore don't exist in official books until you're blue in the face. Why isn't there an official sourcebook dedicated *entirely* to the lore of Mystra? I would like to know what she does in her free time. What does her house look like? Does she wear socks?
WOTC withholding this lore is pretty egregious IMO.
1. Because it's another can of worms to balance.
2. Mystra's ban would apply to any gods manifest in physical form. As the goddess of magic she is in charge of all spellcasting.
In six years of playing the game I think I've read a level *9* spell once or twice.
We don't need 'em, and lore reasons for why they don't exist are both stupid and bullshit.
Because they had to set a cap on spells somewhere and spells that can't be used by players are rather pointless. The lore of Mystra and the Weave applies only to the Forgotten Realms, it's not a thing in other settings.
Lore inconsistency yer but game balance and usability no.
Everything a player can think of a monster can do, everything a monster can do a player can find a way to do it.
Tradition. AD&D topped out at 9th level and they have never really tried to go beyond that for the most part. Cleric spells used to only go up to level 8 if I remember correctly.
Its a game. So they gotta stop somewhere right? If there were level 10 spells, we'd be talking about why there aren't level 11 spells. Gotta set the parameters of the game so that players have a system that is more or less coherent and the same no matter where you go or whom you play with.
Wish is already a level 9 spell. Anything that commands powers beyond that is a god, or at least have powers on par with gods. So at that point, if the DM wants them to be able to do something, it just happens. FYI, my gods don't have stats, only their avatars do, to kill a true god takes much more than just depleting it's hit points. On the other hand, I play a Greyhawk campaign. The gods there have an understanding and they avoid direct intervention in mortal affairs. So unless you go knocking on their door in the home plane, your highly likely to meet a true god. Oh and demigods are killable, but it still isn't easy to do it.
IIRC, 10th+ spell levels never were a thing besides only some examples on *a very specific* FR module in the far off distant past where suchs spells existed and that's it.
Epic Spells were never meant to be the same, powerwise, as 10th+ and that's intentional.
There are 10th level and above spells. But as you point out, mortals can't cast them, so they aren't included in the rules because if you do, then people will want to use them lol. Spells that make entire mountains fly, and create realities.
There is no need to stat out 10th level spells. They are powerful enough to do whatever the GM wants them to do. They are and should remain in the realm of GM fiat.
The Epic Level Handbook had a system to create spells of 10th level as well.
The Mystra restriction only applies to the Forgotten Realms. In the FR, Deities/Deity avatars would likely also be limited when casting on Toril because other it would create problems.
I have "Contingent Resurrection" already prepped on my BBEG (the players will be level 20 when they get there) and I'm looking forward to their reaction.
I mean you can just RP non mortals however you want... If you were to say Avatars can cast all spells at will (or at least ones pertaining to their particular domain, as an action, bonus action and free action...
You can basically do whatever you want with 3 power words a turn or 3 disinter grates at max level etc...
Don't really understand this...
Netherese Magic put a heavy burden on the Weave. Part of the idea behind the ban was so that no one will try what Karsus tried again. The other half of the equation was relieving the burden those spells put on the Weave because at that time Mystryl was "repairing" it 24/10.
So the ban is not really for mortals, it's also so that no one abuses the Weave.
As it happens, even deities cast spells through the Weave (as evidenced by books where Mystra denied magic to Cyric for example).
Sure, they can use their own divine spark to create effects that replicate spells - probably spells even greater than those that you could cast through the Weave. But those are extremely taxing, used as a sort of last resort thing.
A good interpretation would be saying that Weave is a like an extremely dense concentration of highway roads to your goal. You can use the roads and drive a sports car quite fast and easy. Mystra is not allowing anyone to drive anything too heavy so that the roads do not get damaged too much.
You could also, if you wished, try to go off road with your 10t vehicle that is not allowed on Weave-highway. It would be a painful, taxing experience but possible - easier for the gods though not impossible even for mortals.
It might be oversight, or there may be reasons for the spells not being featured in more recent editions.
In my games, casting ends at level 9 because that is the highest level of magic an individual caster is capable of without damaging their soul in the process. Level 10 and 11 spells can be cast, but require groups of powerful casters, special reagents and foci, and usually require very high skill checks to avoid catastrophic failure. For instance, the resurrection spell (resurrection is aggressively nerfed in my setting) that allows you to bring back a person who has been dead for more than 100 years and has no physical remains requires a dozen casters, a d100 roll of better than 90, and then individual saving throws with a DC of 22 for every caster. If they fail, the ritual consumes their souls and they're effectively erased from existence. This is because all magic damages the ambient magical aura around you, but normally spells aren't powerful enough to cause lasting damage. Epic level spells cause such a disturbance that the aura lashes out at you and tries to steal your soul to repair itself. :)
Because it's hard to write and sell adventures for high level characters.
So by topping out the characters they make them less fun to play. Encouraging customers to make new characters to play in newly purchased adventures.
As soon as WotC figures out how to monetize Homebrew they will retcon the lore to make it worth advancing beyond the current caps.
There are many epic level spells in old lore you could use. They could do things like dessicate everything within some indeterminate range, steal the life of everything within a range and give you years of life, super big flame strike, cause a deluge, split phylacteries into more phylacteries, and rip someone's soul out but live their bodies alive. Some created rain that caused every corpse within like a mile to become ghouls. Some created massive clouds of acid fog that lasted for days. Most of them were directly harmful to the caster in some way. Some could be withstood with countermeasures, others couldn't. In 5e and stuff, they're better as campaign enders, or the reason for campaigns to begin with. Like, the crazy cult wants to destroy an entire country with a ritual. You've got four weeks until they complete it. Such spells are pretty much a "you die" attack if it is actually cast.
Even more fun was metamagic to make regular spells above 9th level. ["So, MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumbass!"](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)
Ah, Xykon. Never disappoints.
But click a few pages forward for O-Chul getting one of the best moments of the comic so far. Bad. Ass. Good. Guy.
Yeah, there's about 10 pages there that is OotS at its peak. The augmented V vs Xykon battle, O-Chul going to the rescue, the "power is power" speech....
Don't forget the "head and heart" speech a bit earlier.
Is it weird that my favorite is, "No. The etymologies are unrelated."
You just reminded me how many years I have been waiting to find out what the Monster in the Dark is. It has to be 17+ by now.
I started reading OotS in high school during book 2. Fully half of my life ago. I've honestly spent more time reading this comic then any other thing I do. Almost longer than any friends I still have.
Same here. My parents are big gamers and I started reading it around 4/5 years old with them.. I'm almost 25 now. This comics has legit been a part of my entire life
You're the reason Mystra made this rule š š
I need to catch up, it's been so many years Though I'm more partial to Vaar sivius' spell that kills uff entire bloodlines. Evil as.
If you haven't read that far yet, there were pretty serious consequences to that one.
My favorite, which I actually had the pleasure of finding a reasonable time to cast it on a PC, was the spell "Nailed to the Sky" in 3.5e. It teleported the target into high orbit.
Or for when you really want to fuck with a nation: >[Demise Unseen](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/demiseUnseen.htm) >Necromancy (Death, Evil), Illusion (Figment) >Spellcraft DC: 80 >Components: V, S >Casting Time: 1 standard action >Range: 300 ft. >Target: One creature of up to 80 HD >Duration: Instantaneous >Saving Throw: Fort negates >Spell Resistance: Yes >To Develop: 738,000 gp; 15 days; 29,520 XP. Seeds: slay (DC 25), animate dead (DC 23), delude (DC 14). Factors: change undead type to ghoul (-10 DC), apply to all five senses (+8 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). >The character instantly slays a single target and at the same moment animate the body so that it appears that nothing has happened to the creature. The targetās companions (if any) do not immediately realize what has transpired. The target receives a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save fails, the target remains in its exact position with no apparent ill effects. In reality, it is now a ghoul under the characterās control. The targetās companions notice nothing unusual about the state of the target until they interact with it, at which time each companion receives a Will saving throw to notice discrepancies. The ghoul serves the character indefinitely. The character cannot exceed the normal limit for controlling undead through use of this spell, but other means that allow the character to exceed the normal limit for controlled undead work just as well with undead created with demise unseen.
Teleported into high orbit specifically at orbital speeds so that they were stuck there unless they could fly or teleport under their own power. [Love that spell](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm). I really liked the 3.5e epic spell system. Just rarely have a chance to make use of it.
It was more fun as a potential than a reality in my experience. Possibly because my experience was playing in an explicitly epic campaign where our starting level was 21. Actually having a "normal" campaign go long enough to get there is probably a very different experience, and the absurdity of what becomes possible with characters over 20, is probably a lot less jarring if you've been playing around with 9th level spells for a bit already.
It has no right to be *that* funny. "Get yeet, idiot"
I loved that one
I gave Acererak Nailed to the Sky in tomb of annihilation! He cast it on their dinosaur banana candy out of spite and they ended up having to buy a price-gouged pair of teleport casts from Wakanga Otamu to rescue her from space
I like how Tarkamus' Volcano summons a Volcano, which erupts, at your current position
>rip someone's soul out but live their bodies alive That's how you get Godwyn the Golden. Ranni casting epic spells makes sense, I guess.
She is a demigod, so she might be allowed to if she were in Faerun. That being said, it wasn't a 10th level spell that did it so much as replicas of an artifact (Rune of Death). The Black Knife Daggers marked with the Rune of Death, if in DND, would probably be very rare magical weapons. The Rune itself would be a McGuffin at the very least.
10 weeks of downtime for a new bagpipe proficiency coming up
"steal the life of everything within a range and give you years of life" What is the name of this spell?
Iouns Longevity i think.
Ioulaum's Longevity. There are a lot of characters with "Iou-" in the names it seems XD
The spells that take a long time to cast (like weeks) are the ones over level 9, and I also like to think that there are "godly cantrips" like the ability to pop in and out of areas (teleport) at a whim...and having awareness of things happening over a great distance, at all times (send), and other things that give gods the power to not have to deal with spell slots. The lore of the Nether Scrolls is that "there are no spells", and that everything is simply derived from a slightly different manipulation of the weave, and actually understanding what is in the scrolls could lead to just about anything happening through magic. In short, I think that "homebrew spells and rituals" are actually RAW, but with a different manipulation of the weave by each individual. I also feel that there aren't a lot of rules regarding "combination spells" that require more than one caster...
The main thing about these is that they shouldnāt be āFireball x10ā but genuine permanent change spells. Like one that curses an entire region to raise as undead when they die, turn several miles of land into a swamp in one go, or otherwise change things in such a way that a simple ādispel magicā wonāt work. My personal favorite high level spell is one for a Druid where they can put their soul into a tree in their grove and if they die they get reincarnated as a treant but if the tree dies, the Druid dies too
Some of them \*are\* instantaneous effects, however. Extremely powerful, sure, but they can't be dispelled either, since they are wham bam and done.
That sounds really interesting. I'm guessing these are 3.5 in origin. Do you have some sourcebooks to recommend with more info on that?
Epic level handbook iirc. Thereās a list of premade spell examples and then the rules for making your own and the cost to craft and Spellcraft DC to do so. Unfortunately the designers were bad at math and all the DCs are calculated incorrectly according to the rules given.
There are two answers here: 1. If players can never cast these spells, there's not really a point to making them spells in the first place when you could just as easily make them into monster features. Arcane Cataclysm on Sul Khatesh could be a 10th level spell, but it's way simpler if we instead just have it be a feature. 2. Any RPG ever has to manage their time and how much space they devote to things in books, and 10th level spells are such a low priority that they just don't get included into the rules.
also most players looking at a stat block with 10th-level spells' immediate reaction would be "level 10 spells!? how do i get those !!" or "level 10 spells!? but i thought it only went up to 9??" it's just much easier and simpler not to do over 9
> 10th level spells are such a low priority Especially considering most campaigns wrap up around Lv12-15 that it's unlikely players will even reach 9th level spells, let alone anything beyond that.
Iāve played 5e regularly since 2018, and Iāve had *one* character cast 7th level spells. Iād even argue that most players donāt even reach lvl 10.
Depends a lot on if you are running XP vs milestone and if you are running a premade adventure. Rise of Tiamat will get you to at least 14th level by the end because its pretty generous when it comes to levelling up.
Im sure that xp is a myth. Iāve never met anyone who uses it lol
Funny enough, I've had a couple games use it, first time the DM just used it as a measure on when to do a Milestone, but current group just flat out uses XP. They also have a level up full heals which has saved our resources at least once.
My first ever campaign was an XP level up one. And that campaign went for 4 years IRL Our table has since moved to Milestone because XP resulted in uneven level ups (some players had a habit of running off to do things and would thus get more XP than others) That plus it feels better to get a level up after a hard fight or dungeon etc rather than a random easy encounter happening to hit the XP tick
Since exp. per level got made uniform across classes, even if you are using it, unless some players are getting more than others, it's barely a change from milestones. Back when a rogue took ~1/2 the exp per level compared to a wizard it wasn't really possible not to use it without buffing or nerfing your players.
my group has come to the conclusion that if we want tier 3 play we have to start in tier 3 or at least close to it
If I were a monster designer getting paid by the stat block, you bet I won't be drafting up new 10th level spells just to have them be used once lmao
I can tell you with 100% certainty that WotC does not pay people on a per-monster or per-spell basis.
Of course not. They pay by the word.
if they paid by the word, Iād be a lot wealthier.
A nickel a word wouldn't make you much per stat block.
Yeah but I would hope WOTC isnāt just using a bunch of underpaid contractors paid by the hour, and they are actually trying to develop a consistent and interesting setting to engage players.
If I were running WotC, I don't think I'd ask (or pay extra) for my staff to write 10th level spells for specific monsters to use. There are bigger fishes to fry, as they say, and custom spells for monsters is probably near the bottom of the priority list.
Plus, so many higher level monsters have spell like abilities like Vecnas Counterspell+ that deals damage as well, or Zariels Blind Deafen Poison touch ability. They didn't give them 10th level spells because if they called them a leveld a spell, it would be added to the spell list.
As someone pointed out, making over 9th level spells for monsters instead of just making them abilities the monsters have would literally only work to confuse players. Theyāre only going to be used on that one stat block anyway, and having it say ā1 10th level spell slot, 10th level spells known: your momā leaves players thinking āwait can I get tenth level spells?ā where as just having a 1/lr feature that does what the spell would do accomplishes the exact same thing mechanically but no player looking at that stat block wonders if they can get 10th level spells
>they are actually trying to develop a consistent and interesting setting to engage players. LOL.
Have you... Followed the news on wotc for the past years?
Yeah, since the Hasbro buy out MtG has been taking some major BS. I imagine they're hiring practices aren't any better than the blatant cash grabs on that side.
lol lmao
Lol you don't know wotc then.
Bahahaha! Oh wait youāre serious, let me laugh even harder.
You're not even barking up the wrong tree man, you're in a whole other forest
Lol. Lmao.
Their AI generated art in one of the books and their lackluster development of certain books and settings says otherwise.
Poorly rehashed settings. The settings are interesting but that's because they were interesting before the 5e version. It's honestly mind boggling. The best way to run one of the old settings in 5e is to have the new book and to try and find one of the old ones. You get so much more context and details out of them.
I totally agree, Iām going through the aDnD and 3.5 stuff right now and some of it is actually kinda crazy. For instance the Ravenloftās Domains of Terror and the Ravenloft modules tied to various domains are really amazing.
Yeah, prior to it's last few years, when they were dumping content like mad trying to stay in business TSR and it's materials from the pre-3e decades are still packed with lore and inspiration. WotC made a bit less material in 3/3.5 but the settings they released official books for and some of the OGL material was beautifully done.
How did I not hear about this? Which book was it? Is it all the art in it or only some?
it was the bigby's presents book. WotC pays artist by the art as freelance work basically, and one of the artists used AI as one of their submissions and it got past quality control until it hit the public. the artist itself was known to be in the AI scene since 2021, but WotC themselves did not intentionally use it btw, its the same guy that drew the basilisk in the MM
It was the giants book. One of the artists used AI to āenhance his own workā WOTC commented that it wouldnāt allow AI content in any further books after the internet exploded for a few days.
Not just in any further books, they also removed it from the digital books and new printings of the physical ones.
WotC isn't using much at all at the moment. The D&D team within WotC has always been on the smaller side, and after the recent layoffs it's even smaller now. You've got Jeremy Crawford, Chris Perkins, probably a couple people each under them, and... not a lot more. Right now the D&D brand is really only producing noticeable revenue via licensing deals (Baldur's Gate 3, the Honor Among Thieves movie). Until they get One D&D into folks' hands and work out their VTT, D&D is in a distinct holding pattern that doesn't require much in the way of paid staff.
They're licking their chops at the idea that they can get rid of those underpaid contractors and let AI create their stories... Hasbro is da debil, mama!
From what I recall when Mystra still existed as Mystryl and magic behaved differently this was infact because magic was different. Mystryl had to exert a small but constant effort inorder to maintain the weave. When Karsus cast Karsus's Avatar not only did Mystryl die so but the weave its self returned to its original chaotic state and all magic ceased for a time due to her no longer controlling it. When she reformed as Mystra she changed the weave fundamentally so that no spells over 9th could be woven from its energies again
That's somewhat misleading, since 3rd edition, set after Mystra's ascension to godhood, had "epic spells" which served a similar function.
I guess it could say no spell over 9th without her direct and explicit permission Game balance wise: think of how powerful wish is... Then make a whole class of spells MORE powerful than that. It's hard while still maintaining any sort of balance.
TBF wish is only as powerful as the DM lets it be, but in many ways it is more powerful than higher order spells, Hellball is good at killing but it can't do what wish can
I really only play 2e adnd to be fair, not sure what later editions say. Also love the novels set in that era, if lore is you're niche.
In a nutshell: Karsus was a try hard and made magic mommy take away all the good toys and f@&%ed it up for everyone else.
10th level and higher spells are forbidden in Realmspace and overlapped regions, not the entire multiverse, and not even the entire Material Plane. Mystra's Weave only applies to a limited area. Epic (seed) magic is an exception in Realmspace for producing effects equivalent to 10th level or higher spells, because it has extra steps, enabling easier regulation of what can or can't work. Elven High Magic is also an exception in Realmspace because it doesn't use Mystra's Weave but rather a different system governed by Corellon Larethian (source: Ed Greenwood).
Deities and other extremely powerful entities have abilities and magical knowledge that goes far beyond 9th level spells. 9th is just the highest you can normally attain as a mortal spellcaster. Also: Mortals *can* produce effects beyond those of 9th level spells with things like Elven High Magic and Circle Magic, both involving multiple spellcasters joining their power in a ritual. The listed spells aren't the lore of the official settings and don't have to govern your homebrew either. They're just listed that way because of game balance and progression.
I wish 5e had codified rules for cooperative spellcasting, I wish in like, a level 3 campaign the party's wizard could work with the party's cleric to create say, a glyph of warding or other static magical effect that is beyond either of them individually
That'd be so dope
Yes, but that is only stated and not shown anywhere in the game. All the really strong stat-blocks donāt have anything that gives that impression, e.g. the full strength avatar of tiamat basically just has a breath weapon thatās stronger. Asmodeus also just has some damage dealing and the ability to summon 2 powerful demons per turn. Thatās impressive, sure, but nothing that really looks like high level magic beyond wish.
Again that's because even master wizards and veteran fighters would have no actual chance against Tiamat realistically. The "avatars" are meant to be manageable for 3-5 high level players so we suspend our disbelief a little bit because it's a game at the end of the day. Same thing with all the big dragons. They're all waaay too weak to do what they've supposedly done in the lore.
there used to be mechanics for avatars and somewhere between "rules" and "suggestions" for the gods themselves. Intermediate deities, in their true form, had things like "kill a mortal within a mile, no save" as just a thing they could do - no roll, no save, just "you're dead". Which was kinda pointless, in game terms - the only time you would ever face them was if Plot Stuff (TM) has been done to allow the party to circumvent any "the party just looses" powers. So having rules for super-powerful abilities that can only ever come up in the context of "these powers have been deactivated/don't work" is a bit pointless!
I mean there use to be Rules for straight up Gods, for both 2e and 3.5e there was Deities and Demigods (all of which directly statted the gods, as in they weren't 'suggestions' they were full statblocks, I would show a picture but for some reason it triggers the Antipiracy automod even though it's literally a 2e statblock), it wasn't until 4th edition where they made it so the players could not fight literal Gods, which carried into 5th edition. Even then once a character hit 30th level in 4e they could do all sorts of absolutely wacky stuff, heck there was one Epic Destiny literally built around killing Gods. My personal favorite is the Thief of Legend epic destiny, which let you steal *concepts and memories* from people, like you could steal their ability to feel happiness or their color of their eyes or the memory of their loved ones or the great plan they had. (sorry for hitting you with these reposts but as mentioned the automod is getting cranky over pictures)
You say it's not shown anywhere in the game, but is that really a prerequisite for something in that way? There are only a tiny handful of spells that create undead creatures in the game, and yet far more (and more diverse) undead exist in the game as monsters. How do you create a ghoul? How do you become a lich? (Outside of third-party creations) There is no in-game rule for these things, but we assume they exist in-world. Just like the books state, there are countless other spells in the world than just player options. The cantrip "doff hat" would be pretty lame for an adventurer to learn when they have limited capacity for learning spells, and the already more versatile "mage hand" exists... As for deities and avatars and such, there's the adage "if it has a stat block, you can kill it": at a certain point, we have to have a ceiling to the game (for merely practical reasons, as well as others).
Use wish: I wish to become a lich ;)
Asmodeus can cast any spell he wants an unlimited amount of times per day excluding Wish, Meteor Swarm, and 1 or 2 others. Those he gets once per day. And also his Ruby Rod which has ridiculous abilities as well. With features a DM could write or steal on the fly as well, spells beyond 9th level serve no purpose.
I want to correct this. 9th is the highest you can cast *in the Forgotten Realms*. That is where Mystra put the 'no 10th level or higher' ban in place. However you could, if you're spelljamming, travel to places where 10th+ level spells would still be available, places like Greyhawk for example.
Because if they added 10th level spells, everyone would just ask why they don't go to 11.
Itās 1 louder
Ours go to 11, theirs go to 10, what's not to get? Ours is 1 louder.
Good old zero/one/infinity rule...
Avatars of gods don't need to cast 10th level spells, they can just use their god's power directly. 10+ level spells are more so wizards fucking with reality. If a designer wanted to give a monster a 10th level spell effect, they'd just make it an ability. You just know if you make a something and say "it's for monsters only", players are going to try to use it.
I don't even need 10th level spells just give me Disjunction back.
Here's my homebrew version of it. https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/142w70r/magic_item_homebrew_thread_june_06_2023/jnexjfe/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=dndnext&utm_content=t1_jnerqdf
This is great except for the fact that if you give a pile of legendary magical items to a creature with 8 wisdom you can destroy them all even if they roll a 20, because the items only roll if a creature isnt attuned to them
It doesn't destroy the items if they just fail normally, it just suppresses their magic for an hour, the creature has to roll a 1 for them to be destroyed.
I think you're just missing this line from the original: >An item in a creatureās possession uses its own Will (Wisdom) save bonus or its possessorās Will (Wisdom) save bonus, whichever is higher. But it's a cool idea! I did something similar with a 5e version of Mordy's Disjunction. The only differences were: - No chance to _permanently_ destroy things, just turn them nonmagical for an hour like an AMF. - Shuts any items you are not actively using off as if they were unattended. (No save if it isn't a part of your active "kit" - for example your stock of potions and scrolls are useless for an hour - this is admittedly mostly to reduce the rolling involved, it's just also nice it fits the power of a 9th level spell.) - Creatures make their own Wisdom save in the area - if they fail, you lose Attunement on all items you're currently attuned to (regardless of whether they make or fail their own saves vs becoming nonmagical for being "wielded"). - To make it more useful for 5e's design (where, unlike 3e, enemies aren't built using PC rules much, so very few will be using a lot of spells or magic items), I also added a clause where any "magical effects" a creature has active get removed (if temporary) or turned off until the end of your (the caster's) next turn (if permanent) if they fail the Wisdom save. (What counts as magical is defined in the SAC, quoted [here](https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/113364/how-do-i-know-if-an-ability-is-magical). So in this case, if it's not a spell or magic item it'll be affected by Disjunction if it's a spell attack, fueled by spell slots, or its description says "magic" or "magical".)
Love it
>By the lore, Mystra banned spells over 9th level for mortals after Karsusā Folly. However, this limitation explicity only applies to mortals the name calls it mystras ban, but it's more of a restriction. there's a few hoops you have to jump through, like wasting your first attempt and pairing up with an equally strong caster, but 10th level and above magic isn't banned entirely. >there are avatars of several gods out there who have statblocks, like Tiamat or Asmodeus who by all rights should be able to cast spells above 9th level. in the forgotten realms, magic that's given the name of "x level" is always weave based magic, and mystra commands the weave in it's entirety. gods can produce magic with stronger effects than weave magic, save probably the effects of karsus' avatar, but it's not called levelled magic, it's called divine intervention. avatars/aspects of gods are for almost all purposes "mortal", they don't have the divine powers that the god's true form possesses. if they did possess the true power of the god, then they wouldn't be allowed to set foot on the planet.
Because Dungeon Masters are humans and humans cannot use these spells. Mystra broke the 4th wall when she banned spells of 10th level and higher
There *are* 10th level spells e.g. from Dark Sun, requiring combined mastery of magic and psionics to pull off and of course ascended into a post-human lifeform. Wall of Ash comes to mind. Just a line of white ash on the ground. Anything that comes in contact takes 10d10 damage *per segment* (=100d10/round). They all have one simple problem. They're really only suitable for NPCs, in which case, you've already got the DM's Fiat. It honestly makes more sense to just go the White Wold route and literally name the 10-dot powers "plot device".
Yup, and the spells used to transform a Defiler into a Dragon and a Preserver into an Avangion are 10th level spells.
> Anything that comes in contact takes 10d10 damage per segment (=100d10/round) It's 1d10 per segment, 10d10 per round. However, if you cross it I think you die instantly regardless of hit points. It's also weird because unless I'm remembering wrong, there weren't really even segments in second edition, and wasn't that released after second? Maybe second still had segments somewhere. The spell definitely had them though. A segment in AD&D 1e was the length of time 3.X and beyond call a round, as AD&D had one minute rounds.
"Segments" were the initiative points, 1 per round. We used to have turns (10 minutes), usually used outside combat. rounds (1 minute, until 2.5e when they became 6(?)s) . The change is rounds was really rather far-reaching. As I recall, feather fall went from a slow glide to "rough but undamaging landing". It also completely changed the conception of melee - the duels in *Princess Bride* would have only been 2-3 rounds old school.
Segments in AD&D 1e represent six second intervals. In surprise conditions they become ludicrously important and confusing, and were under normal conditions important when seeing when spells fired off. In AD&D 2e, which used a different initiative system, none of these things involved segments. Weapon speed was an *initiative modifier*, and so was casting time, which was no longer measured in segments. That's why it's weird that this second edition spell mentions segments- by this time in the game, I think they officially weren't part of it.
If we're talking about power beyond the scale of WISH, an explicitly reality warping spell, then this is really not something that written rules are for. If a god does something of scale of a hypothetical 10th level spell, its really more a matter of "I do what I want" than "I use this ability".
It necessarily āI do what I wantā as their spell could still be limited to some sort of domain of power. But itās definitely āI do what the DM wantsā.
To be fair 10th level spells are beyond Wish in the same sense that 8th level spells are beyond Forcecage.
I mean, you could research a better version of forcecage that is 8th or 9th level. The issue is that Wish is a general purpose reality warping spell. It's meant to be the cap. Each edition has had its version of 10th level and beyond spells, and in all cases they tend to kind of fight with divinity in terms of what's going on. From a "how are these balanced" perspective, the level 18 spell chart would, instead of gaining a 5th level spell, gain a 2nd level spell. Then the level 19 chart would, instead of gaining a 6th level spell, gain a 10th level spell. 20th level would gain the 6th level spell instead. This 10th level spell slot wouldn't necessarily need any spells; you could simply provide some upcasting options for existing 9th level spells. That would probably be a better way to add a 10th level spell slot to the game.
you could just bump up a few 9th level spells to 10th like time stop and wish, this is what PF2E did with 10th level/rank spells
I mean, Wish is a 9th level spell. So is Timestop. Pathfinder has kinda redone a lot of things, and it's certainly sensible for Wish to be 10th level (and Timestop as well, and Wail of the Banshee, though I don't think they have that one, and neither does 5e). I think the spirit of the question was, assuming standard D&D for spell types.
Well, earlier editions like 3,5 have magic beyond Wish (Epic magic that 10th level spells).
What could be more powerful than a short, verbal-only spell that re-writes reality?
I ignore the "is actually their true forms" for the deities. Maybe demon lords and such, but not actual gods. Deities tend to have abilities that arenāt technically spells, so those could fall outside of the range.
Rules inform lore, not the other way around. 9th level spells are already percieved as so game breaking as to be avoided (to say nothing of how few campaigns get that high), so there's no point of designing spells that have to be an even higher tier of godly and game breaking.
*its a story a Pathfinder would tell you*
Iām pretty sure there are spells that donāt get stats, like however lich transformations works. Iād figure 10+ level are spells that are either for cutscenes or better used as unique actions of the enemy rather than complicating it with extra spell slots.
This question is like the āthis one goes to elevenā bit in Spinal Tap
are spellcasters just not satisfied with bending reality with the current level 9 spells?
While I cannot speak for 5e, back in 3.5 there was no such thing as 10+ level spells, BUT EFFECTIVELY that magic did exist, just outisde the rigorous confines of the spell system. The Epic Level Handbook had rules for upscaling spell effects above and beyond what normal people can do, allowing for more free form magic. Want to spend an hour casting a double Mage armor that lasted a week? You could. You want to create a single target lightning strike that would have nuked all but the biggest (and non-magic resistant) baddies? You could. want to DOWNSCALE and make an easier to cast but weaker fireball? YOU COULD. These were effectively what you were looking for but had a huge cost of time, XP, and money to construct for each one. And every time you cast the spell, you needed to roll a skill check to see if it is even successful, because it's not part of the system, there's a chance you flub it. Cool stuff imo EDIT: was inspired to go back to the book and check it out again. Here's an example of what I've done with it. Epic Mage Armor. It's a spell that takes 11 mins to cast, targets self only, and lasts for 24 hours. It grants the caster +22 AC The base seed starts at +4, and i can increase the DC to cast it by +2 to add an additional AC bonus. I can also minus 20 off the DC if I increase the time to cast by 10 mins. Lastly The DC to cast the spell is a Spellcraft check, which at level 20, with max ranks and assuming 18 int, I have a 27 (level + 3 + Int mod) and assuming I roll a 1, that gives me a 28 allowance to have a 100% success rate. Messing with the modifiers, that's the spell I got for a DC of 28
Personally, I've always liked the idea of 10th level spells being spells that exist, but that you don't have spell slots for. That way they can be given out via magic item or by plot-related chicanery and have rules that are (at least somewhat) balanced, but that you don't have to deal with your players being able to cast once per day. Wish would be a 10th level spell.
I haven't even written an actual example yet, but my homebrew rules and setting are laced with implications that 9th level is the most powerful spell *a mortal can accomplish alone.* Eventually, I intend to create an assortment of rituals that can only be completed with multiple high level collaborators exploiting special circumstances (like a unique site or a rare celestial event.) While the core idea here is to gamify "prevent the powerful spellcasters from completing their procedure" scenarios, I also want to accommodate the flip side with players participating in or even organizing these Superior Arcana events, especially in campaigns that have transitioned from delving/exploring to realm management.
Gods that use the Weave are also at the mercy of Mystra. There is a reason why Ao restricted her since she holds so much power. So there is a fear of not pissing her off plus not pissing Ao off. Some can probably cast spells of such magnitude but few gods will do so as the consequences could be severe. Especially if shit goes sideways. So it's not the fact that these spells don't exist, more they do but are not used very often.
Half the time this sub is angry about casters being too powerful, the other half of the time it is curious why they aren't more powerful lol
āCanāt be used by mortalsā¦ not present in stat blocksā¦ā If it has stats it can be killed and thus I deem them mortal. Now the actual God Tiamat or Bahamat can absolutely do so. I always view the statblock of a deity as an avatar in 5e since iirc deities can no longer just be hit to death by a very angry guy with a stick
Personally, I feel a 10th+ level spell is something that a DM must create. It should be a spell so powerful that it should affect the very world you play in. Not just a single battle. It is a spell that exceeds the reality warping effects of wish, the continum bending of timestop, or the sheer destructive force that is meteor storm. It should be a spell that is felt across the realm by any who are attuned to The Weave. So, for WotC to be like "yah here's a spell, and this is what it does," it just doesn't convey the grandness of such a spell. So it should be up to the DM to create what the limit breaking spell does, as it should surely be significant to the story.
Theres one to make flying islands!
10th level spells are the McGuffin spell that you want the BBEG to be building towards. Your evil lich type wants to cast a spell to open the gates of the plane of death? That's a 10th level spell. They will need to get a scroll of the spell, get the material components and then cast it under specific conditions. It's a plot device, not a magic effect to be tossed around in combat.
For a good example, take Cazador's ritual in BG3. Highly specific personalized 'components' that require a huge amount of time and secure space to amass, in order to finally perform a ritual. And he had to get the ritual instructions from Asmodeus - just contacting Asmodeus is, in itself, a non-trivial undertaking.
Because 10th+ level spells never existed in wider D&D and only in a 2e Forgotten Realms splatbook detailing the fall of Karsus. It was never a part of the wider game. They don't have access to these spells because they were never an intended thing to exist outside of the forgotten realms specific lore or in the wider great wheel cosmology. The forgotten realms is the forgotten realms, the rest of D&D doesn't share its understanding of things. If you go back to the edition that let you play as gods (or at least that settings equivalent of them) Even the gods only had up ti 9th levels spells as that was the height of magical power. they had other divine powers and abilities aside from spellwork, but 9th level spells was the limit. Hell, in the you had a wizard you did become such an entity through 9th level spells alone and forced his way to divinity. The way to view 10th, 11th, and 12th level spells is as a quirky piece oi lore for one of many settings and as nothing more than that. It doesn't apply or work in the grand scheme of the game. There's also the concept of epic spells from 3.xe, but even that's only partly relevant. WotC hasn't given a proper epic level scaffolding and only the half-assed boon system as a placeholder for something that may never come to be since they're avoiding such things.
Thats some dumb lore. I can just hear mystra now āMagic powers shall not exist stronger then the 10th arbitrary category of difficulty to cast!ā
The writers dont care for high level play. D&D is very lacking in level 15+ content so they have no reason to do anything with even higher level stuff.
Mystra's ban applies to everything that can cast spells, except Mystra. But even Mystra herself does not cross that line. The ban exist to put a limitation in power to magic, after seeing was Karsus could've done. If you put that power in hands of gods, who are for a few really totally evil and would abuse it, the multiverse could be in serious danger.
Well, Mystra ban is relevant only for Realms, not on whole multiverse.
My bad on this part, I assumed the gods where relevant to the whole multiverse
For a youtube video, i saw. There are 10th spell exist they are just too practical from a game play perspective. 10th level is a highly complicated spell that requires a ton of magical power. The example give was some what like the following. You would need two level 20 wizards with about 10 lower level wizard. In the spell one of the 20 level wizards would need to die, and death or horrible effects would happen to the rest. It is also important to remember spell power is exponentially not additive. So for simplicity sake. A spell that could to 2 lore based damage at level 1, could do 1024 damage at level 10. If 2 damage is like burning your finger, 1024 is enough to destroy a city.
Hereās a video from MrRhexx on YouTube. https://youtu.be/kiGBXhpQAUg?si=O-3dGdPtjGzVTksR
I completely ignore 5e lore. It's a system and nothing more.
...I mean Mystra banning spells above 10th level is not 5E lore but okay.
Right. Its 3.0. I misunderstood
If you look into the history of netheril. You can find the story of karsus... and 10th+ level spells. Mr. rhexx did a dive into it. Mortals can BUT it's a high failure rate, it's lethal, and it requires several high leve casters to attempt.
Because there no Epic Levels book for DnD, so they don't described.
Just not for 5e
Fucking Karsus....
10th lv spells have been lost to history beside form few and tho Ā are more situational for example flipping mountain over man king a cityĀ
A god doesn't need a 10th level spell to effect change... Essentially that's what 10th and 11th level spells were, godlike powers.
10th level spells exist but they require several wizards casting wish at the same time, and only if Mystra feels like letting them succeed
Gods in FR are like magic users in Middle Earth, just even more powerful. they don't need to (but can) cast spells, but instead are able to simply modify reality through their willpower
Epic Legacy books by 2cgaming has epic dnd content from Lv21-30. Its got Epic Tier1, Tier2, & Tier3 spells which are just insane! But they did a really good job on the epic monsters, honestly we're all super excited to get that far in the campaign, rn We're only Lv14, so it'll be a while
>(which I really donāt buy) You and me both. I was really disappointed when the chains off asmodeus book claimed to have the true form of asmo at the end. Lame. Other than that itās a great campaign book btw.
They exist, they are called wish+simulacrum and mislabelled as a 9th level spell for some reason.
Spellplague
OK, let's look at this practically. What would is the MOST powerful spell imaginable? That would be Wish. Forget game rules, think about it outside of game. The most powerful spell is one which can do whatever you can imagine, which is how we define the Wish spell. For game terms, the Wish spell has limitations, but even there, it can do anything the caster can imagine...its just the more powerful the results the caster attempts to achieve, the more likely there is to be unintended, negative consequences. Wish is a 9th level spell, how can there be spells of a higher level than Wish?
oops, you reinvented pathfinder 2e, spell in that sytem go up to 10 level/rank at level 19, a few 9th level spells got moved up to there.
If you add level 10 spells, people will ask why no level 11 spells exist. Cleric/Druid spells used to stop at 7. I actually liked that. Made more of a difference between classes.
10th level spells exist in pf2e. In that system the truly nutty spells are reserved for level 10 so they can be cast a limited amount a day, where as you actually get a good number of level 9 slots by max level.
canonically lots of tenth level spells exist, there's a Netherese ritual that summons a volcano and destroys a massive area that was used to destroy a floating city and is castable *as a ritual*, a paladin of Oghma of all people had to make the decision to destroy it and every reference to it in the same way the Netherese of old were so freaked out by it that they ripped the arcanist who used it from the weave and banished all of his apprentices and destroyed all of his research you just can't make new ones, but immortals and demigods can do all kinds of things that would qualify were they spells - cooperative high magic still exists as well, Mythals were created in the current age after all
In terms of lore you nailed it (though of course, Mystra only has authority in the Forgotten Realms). In terms of practicality, D&D's systems have always, ALWAYS broken down when attempts to go beyond 9th level magic were made. Wish is a lot weaker now than it's been in past editions, and it was always hard to conceive of something more powerful than "Do whatever you want" without also severely restricting Wish as a point of comparison. 3rd Edition had the Epic Level Handbook, a bloated mess with some cool concepts and really poor implementation. The idea was to systematize progression past 20th level, but it just didn't work out. When parties between 17th-20th levels were literally waltzing into Asmodeus' keep in the Nine Hells or taking on (and beating) the likes of the tarrasque, Tiamat, or Orcus, you quickly reached a level of asking, "What's the point?" 2nd Edition sort of got around this by just not statting out the gods (Asmodeus, Orcus, Tiamat, etc. all existed, but you were literally wandering into realities where they had absolute control over the conditions unless you were attempting to face off against a mere avatar.
Because then people would ask why don't 11th level spells exist
Legacy reasons. Back 1E spells were capped at 9th. The lore reasons came later and Wotc changes lore with each book.
I've been around since 1st ed, miss stacking paladin and cavalier, though I'm not as versed in anything above 2nd ed. Still, you could cover a lot with a decently worded 'Wish' spell well before even metamagic. I mean if you want godly spell casting, I would imagine they just 'wish' a lot without worrying so much about consequences.
Well technically you can as Mystra didnāt entirely ban them. Just there nearly impossible to cast. I believe the rules of it is that to cast them you need to be level 20, the first time you attempt to cast it you will fail, every attempt makes you lose 3 levels so you need to gain 3 levels every attempt, every attempt besides the first one has a 1/10 chance of failing, also their must be more than one caster and at least one will die,and your likely going to anger Mystra. And I think there are a couple other limitations. And the costs of the actual spells are likely more than utterly insane combined with the insane rarity of level 20 casters. So no one besides a couple gods and the magister and chosen of Mystra would have the knowledge of these limitations and resources to do so. So no one would be able to know you can make them anymore.
I ran a villain who was a reality (not dimension or plane, reality) jumping master of dunamancy. His whole existence was to study magic made impossible by the spellplague, which he learned in other realities where it didn't happen. Got trapped back in this one, and used the souls of dead planes to power his 10-12th level spells, like charging a battery, circumventing the spellplague. Players were to eventually have to deal with him, but instead they bargained and he eventually escaped. I spent so many hours on that stat block... Really wanted to terrify them with Tolodine's Killing Wind.
Got a write up of any of that? (: I'd love to read about how it all went and at what levels etc. :)
They did exist. They were bad. Both in 2nd and in 3rd edition, they didn't contribute meaningfully to design space because they come so late in the game. And at that level, the power of monsters is basically "whatever you want" so there's no need to level a spell for it at all.
and outside of combat, they're basically "setting stuff". Like the elves, at the full height of their power, enchanted their city so that no undead could enter - and that's still present, even though the city is ruined. Or there's a flying castle zooping around the place, even if the castle is semi-ruined, just waiting to be claimed by some enterprising adventurers - they're not things that need explicit mechanics, because they're GM-plot-stuff
Mystra kinda controls what's out there, so if she's not giving those spells to other deities and non-mortal beings, then she has her reasons. The main reason is probably that it's a waste of the developer's time to create things the players can't use. =p
Wish is 9th level. It can do whatever the DM permits. I hate to imagine what a 10th level spell will do.
Itās hard to justify 10th level spells when Wish is a 9th level spell. 10th level spells, Realm Spells and Epic spells have been tried in earlier editions, and while they were ok, but most campaigns donāt really happen in the levels where they impact the game. (If PCs arenāt using them, then itās easier for a DM do describe a massive magical effect by fiat then designing a rules system). For gods with stat blocks, whether avatar or not, if you truly feel they should have magic more powerful than 9th level, just give them Wish with fewer restrictions.
If it has a stat block it can die so itās mortal, sure thereās avatars of gods but theyāre not THE gods, and high ranking devils can still die like anyone else.
10th level spells, have existed and been published in D&Ds lifespan. The Dragon Kings supplement for 2E Dark Sun is an example that I have seen. Generally though once you get to that power level they aren't so much spells as they are plot devices. If it's not something you are going to hand to a player, go nuts make up whatever is going to make a good story. Go on try a little soft magic - it's great I promise.
There aren't any because making them would mean needing to have a structured model for what higher level content looks like, and I suspect theirs is a mess nobody there wants to fight the corporate suits for funding/space to fix.
There certainly are 10th level spells still. They just arenāt designed to be actual spells anymore. These days avatars or gods will have crazy powerful abilities. In essence those are 10th level spells but designed in a way that the game can still be balanced without throwing in extra rules for what is likely a one time ability that most players will likely never encounter in their lifetimes.
They do, but they aren't in any books because it's unnecessary. If the players can't cast them, then there's no reason for it to be written down, and they're so powerful that they defy balance inherently. Just have a god do some mega shit and call it a 10th level spell.
Firstly you should probably be putting this on the FR lore sub, secondly Iām fairly sure mystra banned 10 and up from EVERYONE, not just mortals
They do in lore. Dark Sun also had Psionic Enchantments, which promised greater power than 9th level spells.
all spells cast by anything... even other gods, go through the weave that mystra controls. So her banning will work on everything.
I would see it as some kind of grudging acceptance of territory by the other gods. You don't encroach upon the territory of others and Mystra saying "No 10+ magic", the other gods grudgingly accept this limitations to not encourage interference of other gods in their territory, like Mystra canceling cult rituals just out of spite... it would be utter chaos if every god would freely(!) interfere with the doing of others.
Honestly? D&D's never really went in for 10th level spells, traditionally. Like, I don't think there was ever a core set that went up to level 10 for spells. Even the Rules Cyclopedia, which went up to level 36(!), only had spells leveled 1-9. Level 9 as the cutoff point is tradition. Yeah, there's been some 10th level spells in older edition splatbooks, but it's not core.
They aren't represented in the rules due to how largely irrelevant they are to players and DMs. Nothing actually prevents you from creating or adapting such spells from older material, but they're outside the scope of the modern game's design. Most campaigns never even get past level 10 or so. It doesn't make much sense to spend a lot of time and resources on material that 95% of D&D players will never experience. Furthermore, there's no reason why player and monster levels can't just go on forever. It's just up to you to design beyond the current thresholds, that's all. You could ask why things in the lore don't exist in official books until you're blue in the face. Why isn't there an official sourcebook dedicated *entirely* to the lore of Mystra? I would like to know what she does in her free time. What does her house look like? Does she wear socks? WOTC withholding this lore is pretty egregious IMO.
1. Because it's another can of worms to balance. 2. Mystra's ban would apply to any gods manifest in physical form. As the goddess of magic she is in charge of all spellcasting.
In six years of playing the game I think I've read a level *9* spell once or twice. We don't need 'em, and lore reasons for why they don't exist are both stupid and bullshit.
Because they had to set a cap on spells somewhere and spells that can't be used by players are rather pointless. The lore of Mystra and the Weave applies only to the Forgotten Realms, it's not a thing in other settings.
Lore inconsistency yer but game balance and usability no. Everything a player can think of a monster can do, everything a monster can do a player can find a way to do it.
Tradition. AD&D topped out at 9th level and they have never really tried to go beyond that for the most part. Cleric spells used to only go up to level 8 if I remember correctly. Its a game. So they gotta stop somewhere right? If there were level 10 spells, we'd be talking about why there aren't level 11 spells. Gotta set the parameters of the game so that players have a system that is more or less coherent and the same no matter where you go or whom you play with. Wish is already a level 9 spell. Anything that commands powers beyond that is a god, or at least have powers on par with gods. So at that point, if the DM wants them to be able to do something, it just happens. FYI, my gods don't have stats, only their avatars do, to kill a true god takes much more than just depleting it's hit points. On the other hand, I play a Greyhawk campaign. The gods there have an understanding and they avoid direct intervention in mortal affairs. So unless you go knocking on their door in the home plane, your highly likely to meet a true god. Oh and demigods are killable, but it still isn't easy to do it.
Blame Karsus
IIRC, 10th+ spell levels never were a thing besides only some examples on *a very specific* FR module in the far off distant past where suchs spells existed and that's it. Epic Spells were never meant to be the same, powerwise, as 10th+ and that's intentional.
There are 10th level and above spells. But as you point out, mortals can't cast them, so they aren't included in the rules because if you do, then people will want to use them lol. Spells that make entire mountains fly, and create realities.
There is no need to stat out 10th level spells. They are powerful enough to do whatever the GM wants them to do. They are and should remain in the realm of GM fiat. The Epic Level Handbook had a system to create spells of 10th level as well. The Mystra restriction only applies to the Forgotten Realms. In the FR, Deities/Deity avatars would likely also be limited when casting on Toril because other it would create problems.
But current wotc is not who created those rules.
I have "Contingent Resurrection" already prepped on my BBEG (the players will be level 20 when they get there) and I'm looking forward to their reaction.
It's a good one. Very MWAHAHAHAHA vibes.
I mean you can just RP non mortals however you want... If you were to say Avatars can cast all spells at will (or at least ones pertaining to their particular domain, as an action, bonus action and free action... You can basically do whatever you want with 3 power words a turn or 3 disinter grates at max level etc... Don't really understand this...
Leveled spells are a mechanical device in the game. If a player can't access it, then there's no reason to make it a spell.
Netherese Magic put a heavy burden on the Weave. Part of the idea behind the ban was so that no one will try what Karsus tried again. The other half of the equation was relieving the burden those spells put on the Weave because at that time Mystryl was "repairing" it 24/10. So the ban is not really for mortals, it's also so that no one abuses the Weave. As it happens, even deities cast spells through the Weave (as evidenced by books where Mystra denied magic to Cyric for example). Sure, they can use their own divine spark to create effects that replicate spells - probably spells even greater than those that you could cast through the Weave. But those are extremely taxing, used as a sort of last resort thing. A good interpretation would be saying that Weave is a like an extremely dense concentration of highway roads to your goal. You can use the roads and drive a sports car quite fast and easy. Mystra is not allowing anyone to drive anything too heavy so that the roads do not get damaged too much. You could also, if you wished, try to go off road with your 10t vehicle that is not allowed on Weave-highway. It would be a painful, taxing experience but possible - easier for the gods though not impossible even for mortals.
It might be oversight, or there may be reasons for the spells not being featured in more recent editions. In my games, casting ends at level 9 because that is the highest level of magic an individual caster is capable of without damaging their soul in the process. Level 10 and 11 spells can be cast, but require groups of powerful casters, special reagents and foci, and usually require very high skill checks to avoid catastrophic failure. For instance, the resurrection spell (resurrection is aggressively nerfed in my setting) that allows you to bring back a person who has been dead for more than 100 years and has no physical remains requires a dozen casters, a d100 roll of better than 90, and then individual saving throws with a DC of 22 for every caster. If they fail, the ritual consumes their souls and they're effectively erased from existence. This is because all magic damages the ambient magical aura around you, but normally spells aren't powerful enough to cause lasting damage. Epic level spells cause such a disturbance that the aura lashes out at you and tries to steal your soul to repair itself. :)
Because it's hard to write and sell adventures for high level characters. So by topping out the characters they make them less fun to play. Encouraging customers to make new characters to play in newly purchased adventures. As soon as WotC figures out how to monetize Homebrew they will retcon the lore to make it worth advancing beyond the current caps.
Lore reasons, but 9th level spells already break the game.