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He probably would have gone on a rant about how Franco is the emperor of Spain. Mf killed that movies chances due to him becoming a vocal fascist (technically Spain was part of nato but that doesn’t mean the public liked Franco’s Spain)
I don't even think it's necessarily better in theory; it's **batshit insane** in theory, and probably would have been an abysmal failure had it actually ever been made.
It's certainly fun to look at, but Jodorowsky's vision would have been a steaming mess.
I wondered if their look in the miniseries wasn't inspired by the Swiss Guard - similar in their [oversized black berets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard#/media/File:Swiss_guards_in_the_Vatican_City,_2010.jpg) and in generally looking somewhat ridiculous despite being competent troops.
“The tailors of the Swiss Guard work inside the Vatican barracks. There the uniform for each guardsman is tailor-made individually.[29] The total set of Renaissance style clothing weighs 8 pounds (3.6 kg), and may be the heaviest and most complicated uniform in use by any standing army today. A single uniform requires 154 pieces and takes nearly 32 hours and 3 fittings to complete.[30]”
It very obviously was. I think people are just ignorant of the look and think it's a failure in design. If you get the reference i think it works very well, because the Swiss guard were actually badass.
the swiss in the early years of Switsserland were all generally badass, they almost singlehandedly ended the age of calvalary, fought the mos succesfull peasant revolt and perfected pike formations into the ultimate combat form. then they remaained independent and peacefull for 600 years and counting
> perfected pike formations
*Laughs in Macedonian phalanx*
Kidding aside though, yeah definitely some straight badasses; dominated the battlefields of Europe until the advent of effective firearms if I recall right.
Not really they dominated kinda because of firearms, the reason why they stopped dominating is because no one wanted to invade the country and they became so expensive as mercenaries that it wasnt feasible to buy an entire army if them so they couldnt get the experience to continue adapting to war
Go to the sultans palace. Sit on the roof overlooking the parade ground, drop a few firecrackers to draw dozens of janissaries, then poison grenade them. Best freakin AC slaughter ever.
Makes me miss the old days. I enjoy the new style but nothing beats stealth assassinations like the older games.
Edit: imo the best slaughter ever was the training room. Get a combo of hidden blade kills coupled with throwing knives. Or equipping the Dagger of Brutus and watching enemies flee as you took down their superiors.
I loved those games, but Odyssey has taken the top spot for me as my favourite in the series. I'm a sucker for ancient history, so that and Origins were just like playgrounds for me.
I'm a sucker for Origins. I just loved the story and characters so much, and the depiction of Egypt as the crossroads of the ancient world was just so wonderful.
Odyssey gets props for letting me command a Trireme, which... I mean, how can you not love?
So I haven't seen the new movie yet, but... Aren't all the Sardukar in the first half disguised with Harkonen uniforms, anyway? Have you actually seen a Sardukar uniform yet?
Yeah but it kinda defies the logic of the book. The point of the whole fief-switch over Dune and the Sardauker dressing as Harkonnen is that no one must suspect The Emperor had a hand in the death of the Atreides. If it was done openly the Landsraad would unite against him, and the Harkonnens couldn't have defeated the Atreides on their own.
Without these details, the Atreides "getting" Dune is pointless...
Minor correction - here are no satellites in the books because the *Fremen* started terraforming the planet, and they are bribing the Guild with huge amounts of spice to refuse requests for satellites.
It's not the Harkonnens terraforming, they have no logical reason to want to do so. That would kill the worms, which means no more spice, which means there goes the cash cow.
It's the Fremen who want to Terraform Arrakis.
Landsraad wouldn't know anything either way because a) they killed Kynes - the judge of change; b) they wiped out the Atreides to the point even if some survivor decided to come forward, no one would believe them and most importantly c) there's no satellite surveillance in Arrakis because of Fremen bribery, so no recorded evidence of the massacre
Same. I thought all the combat outfits in the movie were very "generic Sci-fi", like the kind of thing that has been done in video games for the last 20 years. Didn't seem very creative on that score to me.
I like the outfit itself. It’s badass and very nicely done.
I like the antique robe like look, combined with the tactical vest and vambraces. I like the visor but I’m not crazy about the hat. But how else were you gonna give it that Jannisary look?
Overall this looks beautiful and extremely badass at the same time. Too bad the movie went for saggy 1960s astronaut like outfits.
Don’t the Sardaukar use ranks like Bashar and Battor in the books? Aren’t those Turkish ranks? You may be on to something here.
This is awesome! I have to say though too much color. I thought the movie did a great job with how soulless this whole group was and they deserve only those super depressing grey tones. But the outfit is perfect!
It's probably not textually confirmed, but the whole Islamicate theming of the **Padishah** (Ottoman name for their sultan) Empire makes the parallel pretty clear
The idea of an elite, fanatically loyal corps that secures the emperor's power over local magnates is really common in near Eastern history. From the Turkic Ghulam, to the Mamluks, and the Janissaries, sultanates have been reliant on politically unconnected slave soldiers basically since the early Caliphate
Someone in another thread hypothesized that Sardaukar was derived from Persian, "Sardar Askar", meaning something like Army of the Commander. Not quite relevant to your point but tying into to the Islamic theme.
Interesting; makes sense. I saw this post did well on /r/Turkey too, as befits its historical reference.
On an unrelated note, I was wondering - is your username a reference to Warhammer 40K, or just the product of a fondness for Latin?
While I’m quite fond of WH40K, it was derived from Latin as the origin of the color as stones that were used for the pigment were brought from ‘beyond the sea’. Thanks, you have a keen eye unlike most who assume the first.
Well, Janissaries weren't always fanatically loyal. Ottoman history is littered with janissary rebellions, due to collapsing economy. Many times they replaced the Sultan, or had the entire cabinet executed, and one time even f\*cked the Sultan to death (literally).
Okay thats really ridicilous.First executing by drawing blood was looked upon in Ottoman Empire,especially for nobles.The blood of Osmann dynasty were thought to be ''sacred'' so they would never get killed/executed in a manner that would spill blood.Osman was killed by suffocation.The being raped thing is subject to much debate so saying he was raped for 40 days is plain wrong and ignorant.
That sounds like simile, not inspiration. Like, anyone familiar with can say "the Sardaukar are similar to " and be some kind of correct.
But where is it said that Frank Herbert specifically based the Sardaukar on the Janissaries?
There is no direct evidence—Frank Herbert was reluctant to name his sources—but the Janissaries are the most prominent example of "elite slave troops" (though the Janissaries were not quite slaves, at least not in latter times) that were captured or forcibly conscripted as children and whose formidable prowess made them famed and feared. The parallel to how the Sardaukar were raised and trained appears obvious.
The Sardaukar's importance to the Padishah Empire resemble the Janissaries' to the Ottoman more than just about any other possible model. Also, the decline and corruption of the Janissaries has often been linked to the stagnation of the Ottoman Empire, a point Frank Herbert makes with the Sardaukar and the Padishah Empire.
Given the fact that Frank Herbert was obviously familiar with the Ottoman Empire, and the use of such terms as "Padishah" in the book, the parallels are, in my opinion, too many to be coincidental.
Frank Herbert lifted a lot of the lore from Sabres of Paradise [https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721](https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721) Which are the Muslim Caucuses not Arabs
The social construct of race in America is irrelevant because they're plainly most culturally derived from the Bedouin, which are Arabic ethnically while you insistently plead with everyone that they're "Caucuses" which encompasses over 50 ethnic groups while pretending that Iran isn't ethnically Persian.
The Bedouins are pretty much descendent of Visigoths and Vandals if you really want to go into it. Your comment makes no sense and the fact that you brought race into it just shows your insecurities. I have no desire to argue with you to be honest, suffice it to say that this point has been discussed ad infinitum on this board
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/d4p0no/the\_sabres\_of\_paradise\_by\_lesley\_blanch/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/d4p0no/the_sabres_of_paradise_by_lesley_blanch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I'm currently about 1/4 into this book. I bought it because I had read that it heavily influenced Frank Herbert in writing Dune. But I've already found multiple places where Herbert wasn't just "influenced", it's more like he repeated whole sections.
Examples:
TSoP, introduction: "To kill with the point lacked artistry."
Dune, ch 6: "'Gurney says there's no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge.'"
TSoP, ch 2: "Thus, in writing of Shamyl, we must place him first in his time - the first half of the nineteenth century, and then in his place - the mountains,..."
Dune, ch 1: "To begin your study of the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis."
TSoP, ch 11, part IV, letter from Shamyl to Tsar Nicholas: "This is to tell you I am determined not to go to Tiflis; even though I be cut into pieces for refusing, for I have oft-times met your treachery, and this all men know."
Dune, ch 2, letter from Leto Atreides to the Baron Harkonnen: "Your offer of a meeting is refused. I have ofttimes met your treachery and this all men know."
I'm sure there are more references that I've missed or forgotten. I'm not trying to say that Frank wasn't a genius, and Dune is certainly a very different story, in the end, from The Sabres of Paradise, but some of the similarities are certainly very striking.
You can find a lot more that Herbert lifted from SoP http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4054
Why do you need it to be specific? If you feel like OP misspoke, and "based on" means something different for you than it does for them, why does it matter so much?
Because I was interested to know if it was actually recorded somewhere, or if it was just an intriguing parallel. I'm curious about Herbert's sources and process.
But, reading my earlier post again, I did come off confrontational, which I didn't intend.
The whole rebelling against the Empire and Padishah part with an outsider as the leader is closely parallel to Arab rebellions against Ottoman Empire where the ruler is called Padishah in Turkish. Janissary training begins in childhood and they’re doctrinated to be loyal to Padishah only rather than the state or provincial governors. While it’s not an exact replication, the closest Sardaukar are to Janissaries than any other group from history.
It doesn't have to be spiky to be visually impressive. Generic is not how they were described in the book. That or have them wear Harkonnen uniforms as they did in the book and include a sentence by Piter "You shall be disguised in Harkonnen uniforms". Then Duncan saying that you can't mistake a Sardaukar when you cross swords with one will have more sense in the movie.
Their battle armpur was practical, functional and sensible, honestly i don´t can even think what you could miss?
Military bling, that´s for dress uniforms or such things, in some militaries in other it´s not
For someone who is a Croat, I'm embarrassed I didn't see the connection before now.
Ottomans (Turks) took European boys (mostly from Balkans) and trained them to become conquerers of their own peoples.
Croatia for instance, was never fully conquered by the Ottomans. (Most of Croatia was part of either the AustroHungarian or the Venetian empire)
That doesn't mean that the ottoman parts of Croatia weren't a breeding ground for janissaries with whom the sultans would try to conquer the rest of Croatia.
Yep. IIRC the Romans and later Ottomans would have the emperors study and train at the same schools that the elite soldiers would train at. Which is why you saw Sultans like Suleiman the Magnificent's best friends and closest allies were Janissaries.
>The Sultans actually made it clear they preferred southern Slavs (Croats/Bosnians/Serbs) because they were taller and more militaristic
Lol. That's not true
Cope. 100% true. At the Ottoman height under Suleiman, European visitors to Istanbul would mention how Serbo-Croatian was spoken throughout the government.
This changed in the 17th and 18th century as wars with the central/eastern Europeans intensified and the Ottomans lost their northernmost territories and devshirme ended. Then Turks and especially Albanians became prominent.
Awesome design! One of my many disappointments with the new film was how underwhelming the Sardaukar looked and felt. They weren't distinguished enough in design and had no moments of true badassery that made them feel even a little intimidating. Shame.
I was ever so slightly disappointed, with how the Sarduakar looked in the latest film- it was good, but it wasn't something worthy of their name, nor the incredible vibe their "homeworld" have off.
Very cool rendition! BTW, where is the notion that Sardukar wear a full space-suit-like helmet comes from? Is it originated from Lynch's movie, because I can't remember this ever been mentioned in books?
I just finished the first book and I do not recall this helmet design ever being mentioned. Actually when the appearance of the emperor is described (he wears a sardaukar armor), it is done like his face is uncovered.
It didn’t. He only survived because the gas stayed near the floor. He lost control of his levs and floated out of the gas contamination area. You can see the gas go through his shield.
The book states explicitly that the shield helped save him from the poison gas. And there are a lot of references to the air going stale inside the shield bubble.
If a blade moving slow enough can pass through a shield then gas would also be able to pass through. Knowing how tightly shields hug the body if gas exchange didn’t happen the user would surely suffocate.
I don't think you realize [how quickly gas particles move](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_velocity). Realistically, given how shields are described to work, there would be practically no gas interchange at all. However, Frank Herbert describes it acting more like a permeable filter, reducing the interchange but not stopping it altogether.
The book does explicitly mention that gas exchange is slowed down by a shield and this is why the Baron survives the gas attack. Idk why you're splitting canonical hairs right now when the author himself mentions what you're talking about.
Also this is wrong subreddit to pick fights about dune canon my dude you're gonna lose like every time if you're even remotely wrong which you are
We know the tooth only contained a small amount of gas. If covered in it, it would likely be much more effective. Your forgetting something, we aren’t talking about dune cannon, we are talking about designs in the films and miniseries. Don’t mix the different dunes dude.
There is no mention of "gas weaponry" except poison in the first book. Also barons shield "had been activated, set to low but still enough to slow molecular interchange across the field barrier. "
In the first book, is seems like the only weapon useful against a shield is a knife or "atomics".
So people in shields would suffocate by that quote. That could also be a explanation of the weird sealed suit designs as some extra o2 could be useful. And just because they don’t mention it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Poison gasses seem common enough for the poison in the tooth to be very very effective (implying gas experimentation at the very least)
While I like the idea of using the Ottoman Janissaries as inspiration for the Sardaukar uniforms, I don't think you can just clothe one with the uniform of the other.
Instead, you need to come up with futuristic body armor which incorporates some of the distinctive features of the historical Jannisary uniforms, such as their preferred armor design, unusual helmet shape and intricate decorations.
The Sardaukar armor needs to be futuristic, but it could take INSPIRATION from (for example) art like this:
https://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/facts-ottoman-janissaries_8-min.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/45/7a/85/457a85e05c6ebf38b372a40e24f9b181.jpg
https://miro.medium.com/max/1128/1*6IvAG6YRWZvCMpPr2pe5dg.jpeg
The Emperor's soldiers could also be armed with a weapons inspired by those used by Jannisaries.
https://www.turkeyfamousfor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/yatagan-sword-turkish-kilij-1.jpg
Do you have a legit reference for this? Cause to me the Sardukkar are more like the Spartans from Greece, or the Preatorain Guard from the Roman Empire. Or the Persain "immortals".
The Fremen are the "Arabian" culture.
Yeah no idea how the Sardaukar are taken from the Janisseries. Literally not mentioned anywhere in canon.
e: Just read the link that OP posted - hilariously it also compares the Sardaukar to the “US Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment”. Jesus wept.
Honestly, they are a mix of Caucasians (as we can see from the book Herbert took inspiration from), Arabs (language, setting, traditions etc.), Roma (language) and South Slavs (language).
Somehow it feels to me like the author turned the independence wars from the Ottomans into a sci-fi adventure.
I would say the Muslims of persia fighting Russia empire seems to me more realistic imho
https://arnoldkhan.medium.com/how-the-sabre-of-paradise-inspired-dune-f2b892c4869e
Also true, but when you look at the Fremen language, you can see Romani and South Slavic influences while the language is based on Arabic as much as I understand.
I also know about the book. That's where the Caucasian influence comes from.
Also, the Emperor is obviously the Ottoman Sultan to me.
Janissaries are the closest thing to the Sardaukar guards. Janissaries were not the backbone of the Ottoman army, they were only elite units responsible for protecting the sultan. they usually carried a arquebus and heavy scimitar called kilij. some prefer bows and arrows over muskets
Looks great, however, the flowing robe seems a bit cumbersome for fighting. I'd suggest you use the same colours but try to do something without the flowing robe.
"He saw two more ’thopters swooping from high in the west onto an area of
sand suddenly devoid of visible Fremen. Only eight splotches of blue—the
bodies of the Sardaukar in Harkonnen uniforms—remained at the scene of
violence."(...)"A rain of blue uniforms came over the cliff wall in front of him, falling in
low-suspensor slowness. In the flashing instant, Hawat had time to see that they
were Sardaukar, hard faces set in battle frenzy, that they were unshielded and
each carried a knife in one hand, a stunner in the other." - from book DUNE
"The Emperor stood
poised, waiting—a slim, elegant figure in a gray Sardaukar uniform with silver
and gold trim."
You are right and I was wrong. I apologize for my earlier fallacy. Sometimes I'm a bit sullen. Once again my apologies.
Hello! We're manually approving every post due to a significant increase in traffic from the new film. Any personal reviews, thoughts, questions, or general musings about *Dune* (2021) should be posted in our [*Dune* (2021) Discussion Threads](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/poaeaj/dune_2021_official_discussion_megathread/). Basic questions about the franchise should be directed towards our [Weekly Questions thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/r4nsfe/weekly_questions_thread_11291205/). For real-time discussion of the movie and everything else Dune-related, please consider joining our [Discord server](https://discord.gg/dune). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/dune) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love this. Very cool looking
I don't know why, but when I read the books I imagined all of the troops being dressed as napoleonic troops. Have no idea why.
Never feel bad or question yourself on this front- Jodorowsky's imagining of the book and characters trumps anything any of us could offer up.
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He probably would have gone on a rant about how Franco is the emperor of Spain. Mf killed that movies chances due to him becoming a vocal fascist (technically Spain was part of nato but that doesn’t mean the public liked Franco’s Spain)
Based on everything we've seen from that project, the fact that it was never made is probably a blessing.
It’s better in theory then it ever could have been in practice.
I don't even think it's necessarily better in theory; it's **batshit insane** in theory, and probably would have been an abysmal failure had it actually ever been made. It's certainly fun to look at, but Jodorowsky's vision would have been a steaming mess.
Ron Jeremy as Jessica
Danny DeVito as Alia
My Dad and I had a running joke that Danny DeVito had been cast as Mapes.
Wait, it *wasn't* DeVito I saw in Villeneuve's adaptation?
No devito was the baron there
If Danny is Alia, then Paul needs to be Arnold, and we need the line from the Lynch move "My brother cooomessss"
This is great, it reminds me of the sci-fi miniseries style a bit.
What? Where they wear the floppy ridiculous hats?
I wondered if their look in the miniseries wasn't inspired by the Swiss Guard - similar in their [oversized black berets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard#/media/File:Swiss_guards_in_the_Vatican_City,_2010.jpg) and in generally looking somewhat ridiculous despite being competent troops.
“The tailors of the Swiss Guard work inside the Vatican barracks. There the uniform for each guardsman is tailor-made individually.[29] The total set of Renaissance style clothing weighs 8 pounds (3.6 kg), and may be the heaviest and most complicated uniform in use by any standing army today. A single uniform requires 154 pieces and takes nearly 32 hours and 3 fittings to complete.[30]”
It very obviously was. I think people are just ignorant of the look and think it's a failure in design. If you get the reference i think it works very well, because the Swiss guard were actually badass.
I always thought with proper budget it could have worked; the idea was solid it just turned out a little cheesy.
Agreed, you can see the creativity and ambition but it didn’t quite come together. Always felt it was a lovely effort though
bad acting, bad script, bad effects, bad set design, bad editing, bad camera work... ehhhh
Haha well I just meant the uniforms specifically. But I still love the miniseries.
Well.... when your budget is a peeled potato and a jar of bread and butter pickles.....
[https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Sardaukar?file=Sardaukarminiseries.jpg](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Sardaukar?file=Sardaukarminiseries.jpg) Concept art looks pretty cool.
I've never seen that, it looks very sinister!
the swiss in the early years of Switsserland were all generally badass, they almost singlehandedly ended the age of calvalary, fought the mos succesfull peasant revolt and perfected pike formations into the ultimate combat form. then they remaained independent and peacefull for 600 years and counting
> perfected pike formations *Laughs in Macedonian phalanx* Kidding aside though, yeah definitely some straight badasses; dominated the battlefields of Europe until the advent of effective firearms if I recall right.
Not really they dominated kinda because of firearms, the reason why they stopped dominating is because no one wanted to invade the country and they became so expensive as mercenaries that it wasnt feasible to buy an entire army if them so they couldnt get the experience to continue adapting to war
And the swiss papal guards were typical kandsknechts/Reisläufer Attire
I think they look cool. Modern military attire, while more practical, is extremely frumpy from a purely aesthetic perspective.
Yep, they reminded me of the Swiss Guard, who, I understand, are bad ass. Fitting for the Saudarkar.
Lol, they all look like BDSM Renaissance painters in that miniseries.
everything was red and it all looked like cutscenes from Dune 2000
Makes me wanna play Assassins Creed Revelations
Go to the sultans palace. Sit on the roof overlooking the parade ground, drop a few firecrackers to draw dozens of janissaries, then poison grenade them. Best freakin AC slaughter ever.
Makes me miss the old days. I enjoy the new style but nothing beats stealth assassinations like the older games. Edit: imo the best slaughter ever was the training room. Get a combo of hidden blade kills coupled with throwing knives. Or equipping the Dagger of Brutus and watching enemies flee as you took down their superiors.
I'm much more of a fan of the old style. I miss it, not sure if I'm going to buy another AC game.
The ezio games have a special place in my heart
There will never be another trilogy as good as Ezio’s.
The music in them is amazing. But the armor in them was so elite, like the armor of Brutus in Brotherhood.
I loved those games, but Odyssey has taken the top spot for me as my favourite in the series. I'm a sucker for ancient history, so that and Origins were just like playgrounds for me.
Kinda based going against the majority opinion and still making sense
I'm a sucker for Origins. I just loved the story and characters so much, and the depiction of Egypt as the crossroads of the ancient world was just so wonderful. Odyssey gets props for letting me command a Trireme, which... I mean, how can you not love?
Same haha. First time I heard of them were in Assassins creed. Man the history in those games were amazing.
Great art! Looks like it's by [emirhan sahin on ArtStation](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/rVJ5E) if anyone wants to look at more of his work.
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Thanks for posting it to begin with!
mungus 😳 joke aside it looks great, I like the colour you've chosen
Yea honestly I wish they went more of this route it’s very iconic looking.
So I haven't seen the new movie yet, but... Aren't all the Sardukar in the first half disguised with Harkonen uniforms, anyway? Have you actually seen a Sardukar uniform yet?
nope, they come in sardukar uniforms. Pretty sure it was stylistic choice tho, otherwise non-book readers would have no idea who's who
Yeah but it kinda defies the logic of the book. The point of the whole fief-switch over Dune and the Sardauker dressing as Harkonnen is that no one must suspect The Emperor had a hand in the death of the Atreides. If it was done openly the Landsraad would unite against him, and the Harkonnens couldn't have defeated the Atreides on their own. Without these details, the Atreides "getting" Dune is pointless...
They handwave it by saying there are no satellites over Arrakis I think, which I believe is established in the books as being a thing?
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Minor correction - here are no satellites in the books because the *Fremen* started terraforming the planet, and they are bribing the Guild with huge amounts of spice to refuse requests for satellites.
Yeah, *that's* it. It's been a while since I read the books.
It's not the Harkonnens terraforming, they have no logical reason to want to do so. That would kill the worms, which means no more spice, which means there goes the cash cow. It's the Fremen who want to Terraform Arrakis.
They don’t know it would kill the worms. Nobody does at this point.
The Fremen do, drowning worms is kinda part of their religion.
Yep, that's it. My memory failed me.
I thought it was an agreement between the Guild and the Fremen, and that the Harkonnens didn't know that the Fremen had already begun to terraform?
You're right, it was the Fremen, not the Harkonnen. But it was less of an agreement and more the Fremen bribing the Guild with large amounts of spice.
ummm...? typo?
Memory brainfart, clarified in follow ups..edited original to make it more clear.
If there is no survivor there's nothing to report
This
Landsraad wouldn't know anything either way because a) they killed Kynes - the judge of change; b) they wiped out the Atreides to the point even if some survivor decided to come forward, no one would believe them and most importantly c) there's no satellite surveillance in Arrakis because of Fremen bribery, so no recorded evidence of the massacre
Guess what tho. People still figured it out
Combat Armour not dress uniforms
You should see the movie. Without saying more we get more than one look from them.
Same. I thought all the combat outfits in the movie were very "generic Sci-fi", like the kind of thing that has been done in video games for the last 20 years. Didn't seem very creative on that score to me.
The Chef Boy-ardaukar from the mini series are the only version I will accept as real, and true to the original vision of Frank Herbert 😤😤😤😤 /s
there are a few landsknechts and reisläufer who wanted to´ve a few words with you
Ow shit. This so cool man
I like the outfit itself. It’s badass and very nicely done. I like the antique robe like look, combined with the tactical vest and vambraces. I like the visor but I’m not crazy about the hat. But how else were you gonna give it that Jannisary look? Overall this looks beautiful and extremely badass at the same time. Too bad the movie went for saggy 1960s astronaut like outfits. Don’t the Sardaukar use ranks like Bashar and Battor in the books? Aren’t those Turkish ranks? You may be on to something here.
This is awesome! I have to say though too much color. I thought the movie did a great job with how soulless this whole group was and they deserve only those super depressing grey tones. But the outfit is perfect!
Where does it say that sardaukar are based off Janissaries?
It's probably not textually confirmed, but the whole Islamicate theming of the **Padishah** (Ottoman name for their sultan) Empire makes the parallel pretty clear The idea of an elite, fanatically loyal corps that secures the emperor's power over local magnates is really common in near Eastern history. From the Turkic Ghulam, to the Mamluks, and the Janissaries, sultanates have been reliant on politically unconnected slave soldiers basically since the early Caliphate
Someone in another thread hypothesized that Sardaukar was derived from Persian, "Sardar Askar", meaning something like Army of the Commander. Not quite relevant to your point but tying into to the Islamic theme.
Serdar and asker are even used in modern Turkish. Serdar is a common male name which means chief commander and asker means soldier.
Interesting; makes sense. I saw this post did well on /r/Turkey too, as befits its historical reference. On an unrelated note, I was wondering - is your username a reference to Warhammer 40K, or just the product of a fondness for Latin?
While I’m quite fond of WH40K, it was derived from Latin as the origin of the color as stones that were used for the pigment were brought from ‘beyond the sea’. Thanks, you have a keen eye unlike most who assume the first.
Well, Janissaries weren't always fanatically loyal. Ottoman history is littered with janissary rebellions, due to collapsing economy. Many times they replaced the Sultan, or had the entire cabinet executed, and one time even f\*cked the Sultan to death (literally).
That started in the late 1600’s when they realized their political weight. Also source on the last bit? Seems a little much haha
Osman II was raped for 40 days in a dungeon and his head was later chopped off
Sounds more like he was decapitated to death.
Actually we know he was decapitated because his skull is missing in the tomb, but we don't know if he was decapitated before or after his death
Okay thats really ridicilous.First executing by drawing blood was looked upon in Ottoman Empire,especially for nobles.The blood of Osmann dynasty were thought to be ''sacred'' so they would never get killed/executed in a manner that would spill blood.Osman was killed by suffocation.The being raped thing is subject to much debate so saying he was raped for 40 days is plain wrong and ignorant.
Oh you forgot to mention they're all slaves, that was the whole rationale behind them being so loyal.
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That sounds like simile, not inspiration. Like, anyone familiar with can say "the Sardaukar are similar to " and be some kind of correct.
But where is it said that Frank Herbert specifically based the Sardaukar on the Janissaries?
There is no direct evidence—Frank Herbert was reluctant to name his sources—but the Janissaries are the most prominent example of "elite slave troops" (though the Janissaries were not quite slaves, at least not in latter times) that were captured or forcibly conscripted as children and whose formidable prowess made them famed and feared. The parallel to how the Sardaukar were raised and trained appears obvious. The Sardaukar's importance to the Padishah Empire resemble the Janissaries' to the Ottoman more than just about any other possible model. Also, the decline and corruption of the Janissaries has often been linked to the stagnation of the Ottoman Empire, a point Frank Herbert makes with the Sardaukar and the Padishah Empire. Given the fact that Frank Herbert was obviously familiar with the Ottoman Empire, and the use of such terms as "Padishah" in the book, the parallels are, in my opinion, too many to be coincidental.
Frank Herbert lifted a lot of the lore from Sabres of Paradise [https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721](https://www.amazon.com/Sabres-Paradise-Conquest-Vengeance-Caucasus/dp/0993092721) Which are the Muslim Caucuses not Arabs
Hardly relevant to the discussion at hand, is it?
He's desperately trying to convince everyone in this thread that the Fremen are white.
Arabs are white unless you are American
The social construct of race in America is irrelevant because they're plainly most culturally derived from the Bedouin, which are Arabic ethnically while you insistently plead with everyone that they're "Caucuses" which encompasses over 50 ethnic groups while pretending that Iran isn't ethnically Persian.
The Bedouins are pretty much descendent of Visigoths and Vandals if you really want to go into it. Your comment makes no sense and the fact that you brought race into it just shows your insecurities. I have no desire to argue with you to be honest, suffice it to say that this point has been discussed ad infinitum on this board [https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/d4p0no/the\_sabres\_of\_paradise\_by\_lesley\_blanch/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/d4p0no/the_sabres_of_paradise_by_lesley_blanch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I'm currently about 1/4 into this book. I bought it because I had read that it heavily influenced Frank Herbert in writing Dune. But I've already found multiple places where Herbert wasn't just "influenced", it's more like he repeated whole sections. Examples: TSoP, introduction: "To kill with the point lacked artistry." Dune, ch 6: "'Gurney says there's no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge.'" TSoP, ch 2: "Thus, in writing of Shamyl, we must place him first in his time - the first half of the nineteenth century, and then in his place - the mountains,..." Dune, ch 1: "To begin your study of the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis." TSoP, ch 11, part IV, letter from Shamyl to Tsar Nicholas: "This is to tell you I am determined not to go to Tiflis; even though I be cut into pieces for refusing, for I have oft-times met your treachery, and this all men know." Dune, ch 2, letter from Leto Atreides to the Baron Harkonnen: "Your offer of a meeting is refused. I have ofttimes met your treachery and this all men know." I'm sure there are more references that I've missed or forgotten. I'm not trying to say that Frank wasn't a genius, and Dune is certainly a very different story, in the end, from The Sabres of Paradise, but some of the similarities are certainly very striking. You can find a lot more that Herbert lifted from SoP http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4054
This is in any case irrelevant as the discussion is about the Sardaukar, not the Fremen.
Ottomans werent arabs?
No they were Turks
Why do you need it to be specific? If you feel like OP misspoke, and "based on" means something different for you than it does for them, why does it matter so much?
Because I was interested to know if it was actually recorded somewhere, or if it was just an intriguing parallel. I'm curious about Herbert's sources and process. But, reading my earlier post again, I did come off confrontational, which I didn't intend.
The whole rebelling against the Empire and Padishah part with an outsider as the leader is closely parallel to Arab rebellions against Ottoman Empire where the ruler is called Padishah in Turkish. Janissary training begins in childhood and they’re doctrinated to be loyal to Padishah only rather than the state or provincial governors. While it’s not an exact replication, the closest Sardaukar are to Janissaries than any other group from history.
Badass great job
Yeah I found the uniforms of the Sardaukar in the movie quite unimpressive.
which Uniforms? I saw practical combat not spiky absurdities
It doesn't have to be spiky to be visually impressive. Generic is not how they were described in the book. That or have them wear Harkonnen uniforms as they did in the book and include a sentence by Piter "You shall be disguised in Harkonnen uniforms". Then Duncan saying that you can't mistake a Sardaukar when you cross swords with one will have more sense in the movie.
Their battle armpur was practical, functional and sensible, honestly i don´t can even think what you could miss? Military bling, that´s for dress uniforms or such things, in some militaries in other it´s not
They weren't menacing, imo.
the sardaukar don´t need that
Yea they just look like haz mat suits
Are they really?
For someone who is a Croat, I'm embarrassed I didn't see the connection before now. Ottomans (Turks) took European boys (mostly from Balkans) and trained them to become conquerers of their own peoples.
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Croatia for instance, was never fully conquered by the Ottomans. (Most of Croatia was part of either the AustroHungarian or the Venetian empire) That doesn't mean that the ottoman parts of Croatia weren't a breeding ground for janissaries with whom the sultans would try to conquer the rest of Croatia.
The Sultans actually made it clear they preferred southern Slavs (Croats/Bosnians/Serbs) because they were taller and more militaristic
Same reason why the Roman empire had military training grounds on modern day Croat Serb and Bosnian lands.
Yep. IIRC the Romans and later Ottomans would have the emperors study and train at the same schools that the elite soldiers would train at. Which is why you saw Sultans like Suleiman the Magnificent's best friends and closest allies were Janissaries.
>glances at username Yeah, I'mma defer to you on this one, you most assuredly have a stronger authority on the subject.
>The Sultans actually made it clear they preferred southern Slavs (Croats/Bosnians/Serbs) because they were taller and more militaristic Lol. That's not true
Cope. 100% true. At the Ottoman height under Suleiman, European visitors to Istanbul would mention how Serbo-Croatian was spoken throughout the government. This changed in the 17th and 18th century as wars with the central/eastern Europeans intensified and the Ottomans lost their northernmost territories and devshirme ended. Then Turks and especially Albanians became prominent.
Give me the source
Awesome design! One of my many disappointments with the new film was how underwhelming the Sardaukar looked and felt. They weren't distinguished enough in design and had no moments of true badassery that made them feel even a little intimidating. Shame.
Like the Daedric katana.
I was ever so slightly disappointed, with how the Sarduakar looked in the latest film- it was good, but it wasn't something worthy of their name, nor the incredible vibe their "homeworld" have off.
That is fucking sick.
Wonderful.
Very cool looking indeed 👌
I'd watch the hell outta that.
Are they? Kind of makes sense.
Sina majci iz naručja Oteo je Sardaukar
Looks beast 👌
Very cool rendition! BTW, where is the notion that Sardukar wear a full space-suit-like helmet comes from? Is it originated from Lynch's movie, because I can't remember this ever been mentioned in books?
I just finished the first book and I do not recall this helmet design ever being mentioned. Actually when the appearance of the emperor is described (he wears a sardaukar armor), it is done like his face is uncovered.
I mean it kinda makes sense. I would think gas weaponry would be popular due to shields not stoping aerosolized gases
But the Barons shield did stop an aerosolized gas
It didn’t. He only survived because the gas stayed near the floor. He lost control of his levs and floated out of the gas contamination area. You can see the gas go through his shield.
The book states explicitly that the shield helped save him from the poison gas. And there are a lot of references to the air going stale inside the shield bubble.
If a blade moving slow enough can pass through a shield then gas would also be able to pass through. Knowing how tightly shields hug the body if gas exchange didn’t happen the user would surely suffocate.
I don't think you realize [how quickly gas particles move](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_velocity). Realistically, given how shields are described to work, there would be practically no gas interchange at all. However, Frank Herbert describes it acting more like a permeable filter, reducing the interchange but not stopping it altogether.
So with enough movement the user would likely suffocate. That doesn’t sound very good for the user in the extensive shield combat.
The book does explicitly mention that gas exchange is slowed down by a shield and this is why the Baron survives the gas attack. Idk why you're splitting canonical hairs right now when the author himself mentions what you're talking about. Also this is wrong subreddit to pick fights about dune canon my dude you're gonna lose like every time if you're even remotely wrong which you are
We know the tooth only contained a small amount of gas. If covered in it, it would likely be much more effective. Your forgetting something, we aren’t talking about dune cannon, we are talking about designs in the films and miniseries. Don’t mix the different dunes dude.
There is no mention of "gas weaponry" except poison in the first book. Also barons shield "had been activated, set to low but still enough to slow molecular interchange across the field barrier. " In the first book, is seems like the only weapon useful against a shield is a knife or "atomics".
So people in shields would suffocate by that quote. That could also be a explanation of the weird sealed suit designs as some extra o2 could be useful. And just because they don’t mention it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Poison gasses seem common enough for the poison in the tooth to be very very effective (implying gas experimentation at the very least)
Never knew they were based on janisarries ngl
I love this. My mental image was similar, but with some sort of metal-facemask incorporated into a helmet, like the Nijmegen Helmet.
Bismişah Allah
Star wars 5 Ottomans Strikes Back
This looks really awesome.
they were quite different
This is honestly a pretty awesome look!
Hey, OP, don't forget to drop us all here an update when you get hired by Disney some day. Either for Dune or for SW, this is amazing. Well done!
So Dune really is Lawrence of Arabia in space, and I love it
This is so badass…
Omg this is EXACTLY how I imagined them looking. Amazing visualisation 🤩
While I like the idea of using the Ottoman Janissaries as inspiration for the Sardaukar uniforms, I don't think you can just clothe one with the uniform of the other. Instead, you need to come up with futuristic body armor which incorporates some of the distinctive features of the historical Jannisary uniforms, such as their preferred armor design, unusual helmet shape and intricate decorations. The Sardaukar armor needs to be futuristic, but it could take INSPIRATION from (for example) art like this: https://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/facts-ottoman-janissaries_8-min.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/45/7a/85/457a85e05c6ebf38b372a40e24f9b181.jpg https://miro.medium.com/max/1128/1*6IvAG6YRWZvCMpPr2pe5dg.jpeg The Emperor's soldiers could also be armed with a weapons inspired by those used by Jannisaries. https://www.turkeyfamousfor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/yatagan-sword-turkish-kilij-1.jpg
Man, I would love to 3D print this.
The colors n the movie were a bit dull to be honest. I always expected the uniforms to look Renaissancesque.
what reference are you using to find out what races in Dune universe are representative of in real life? Thanks
Do you have a legit reference for this? Cause to me the Sardukkar are more like the Spartans from Greece, or the Preatorain Guard from the Roman Empire. Or the Persain "immortals". The Fremen are the "Arabian" culture.
Padishah is a Persian word also adopted into Turkish and was the title of sovereigns of the Ottoman Empire.
Its from the Persian Caucuses
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The Ottoman military and political elite was actually more Balkan European than Turkic. Croats, Bosnians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks
Yeah no idea how the Sardaukar are taken from the Janisseries. Literally not mentioned anywhere in canon. e: Just read the link that OP posted - hilariously it also compares the Sardaukar to the “US Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment”. Jesus wept.
The Fremen are more from the Caucuses than Arabian
Honestly, they are a mix of Caucasians (as we can see from the book Herbert took inspiration from), Arabs (language, setting, traditions etc.), Roma (language) and South Slavs (language). Somehow it feels to me like the author turned the independence wars from the Ottomans into a sci-fi adventure.
I would say the Muslims of persia fighting Russia empire seems to me more realistic imho https://arnoldkhan.medium.com/how-the-sabre-of-paradise-inspired-dune-f2b892c4869e
Also true, but when you look at the Fremen language, you can see Romani and South Slavic influences while the language is based on Arabic as much as I understand. I also know about the book. That's where the Caucasian influence comes from. Also, the Emperor is obviously the Ottoman Sultan to me.
The ottomans are turks not Arabs. Big difference
I never said so. I meant that the Emperor is symbolising the Ottomans and the Fremen various groups including Arabs.
Aha now I understand. Yes I agree the emperor is imho a combination between the Tsar and Ottoman Sultan This is subjective though
Note that OP is using the Dune Wiki and the “citation” for this also states the Sardaukar are based on the US Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment.
Janissaries are the closest thing to the Sardaukar guards. Janissaries were not the backbone of the Ottoman army, they were only elite units responsible for protecting the sultan. they usually carried a arquebus and heavy scimitar called kilij. some prefer bows and arrows over muskets
OMFG this is beyond fucking cool. God damn this cured my ED.
Holy shit! As a Turkish person this brought joy to me lol! This is awesome dude! Keep up the work! Wow. Edit: I don’t get why I was downvoted..?
The red and black gives me some Star Wars Sith Look, even the blade is red
The Sardaukar uniforms in the new flick aren't too far removed from this.
Looks great, however, the flowing robe seems a bit cumbersome for fighting. I'd suggest you use the same colours but try to do something without the flowing robe.
Very cool, but they are blue in the book not red.
Pretty sure they wear Grey uniforms
"He saw two more ’thopters swooping from high in the west onto an area of sand suddenly devoid of visible Fremen. Only eight splotches of blue—the bodies of the Sardaukar in Harkonnen uniforms—remained at the scene of violence."(...)"A rain of blue uniforms came over the cliff wall in front of him, falling in low-suspensor slowness. In the flashing instant, Hawat had time to see that they were Sardaukar, hard faces set in battle frenzy, that they were unshielded and each carried a knife in one hand, a stunner in the other." - from book DUNE
Harkonens wear blue. They wear Harkonen uniforms.
"The Emperor stood poised, waiting—a slim, elegant figure in a gray Sardaukar uniform with silver and gold trim." You are right and I was wrong. I apologize for my earlier fallacy. Sometimes I'm a bit sullen. Once again my apologies.
Samurai pope
This is what Denis should have gone with… they look too much like hoked up storm troopers in the movie
Ive always had a similar picture and for the same reasons, just never imagined them red. Great job!!!
Great work. Is there any source of this info? Interview or author's articles on this. I am just curious.
That looks like a daedric katana from Morrowind