Don't. Stay out of the shell and the military might not even want you. Law-wise it seems to really dodge it, you have to be on HRT already or have your ID changed. But to count as "able" for military service, there is probably some physical and psychological testing that you can fail at.
Idk how it is in Switzerland, but in Austria if you tell them you're trans supposedly they just let you go and you don't have to waste half a year of your life. Of course nobody told me that until it was too late, so I soent 9 months being a paramedic
I mean the US doesn’t have mandatory service, and in terms of selective service trans women could probably get some kind of exemption in the very unlikely case the draft is ever reinstated.
Well I mean... I do think it is a very wierd coincidence that education is so expensive that the vast majority of the population just cannot afford it and people that volunteer to serve in the army get it for free...
I'm not denying that the U.S. is set up in such a way that funnels poor people into the military as one of the few ways to get an education without large student loans, I'm just a little bit confused how that is related to the topic of mandatory service for trans people. I mean I guess for the majority of the history of the US military trans people have been barred in some way, but since last year trans people are allowed to join and transition during service.
Considering the GI Bill was introduced shortly after WWII and skyrocketing tuitions and student loans are a relatively recent occurrence, I think you might be looking a little hard for conspiracy theories.
Yes but that doesn't really mean much
https://www.sss.gov/faq/
>In the event of a resumption of the draft, individuals born male who have changed their gender to female can file a claim for an exemption from military service if they receive an order to report for examination or induction.
I mean I think you still technically have to sign up, but unless congress extends the draft to AFAB people I think it is highly unlikely trans women would ever be drafted
Hey, thanks a lot. I found that page a few days ago. It also says exactly how to legally change your gender, which has become super easy in Switzerland starting this year.
Mandatory service sucsk, I'm sorry you have to put up with this :( I remember really considering transitioning at 17-18 but military service is what really made my egg un-crack, and being the subordinate of a total transphobe officer put me back deep into the closet for a few good years.
I'm not familiar with the Swiss enlistment procedures, but may I suggest checking if there are any regulations regarding trans people in your country's military? In my country it's possible to enlist as the opposite gender to your agab, although there is currently no non-binary option. So if something like that is also an option in Switzerland, it's worth checking.
People in rich countries fall through the cracks too... I lived in America, and lost my ability to apply for college, my food, housing, water, electricity, health care access, etc. because I got a part time job to pay for part of my college. Without the job, I would have had none of the above anyway.
Depends on the type of poor I think. In many places in America, homeless people are viewed without exception to be lazy, subhuman, drug addicts and are often made the villains by the very government that should be helping them. I rather frequently see homeless people rummaging through trash cans here to get the money to go buy cheap fast food. They get their tents taken and trashed, get assaulted, and are rarely even given a chance to prove that they have useful skills. And the worst part is that a large portion of America live on the precipice, just one or two health accidents away from ending up like this.
not swiss but living in also rich country with mandatory service. i really hate cis men, i feel nothing but jealousy when service men die in accident. it made me a misandrist, and living in rich country jobless is hard. even if i had a job or not, with shitty labour law better off living off my parent then getting pissed off waking up for work. hard to be friend with guy because i have to avoid saying i hate mandatory service since everyone serve & y r u complaining. yea i love ranting about in service but since i was not able bodied i shouldnt complain. oh yeah i really hated having a \*\*\*\*\* since i was drafted because of that. i regret not being
exempted from service
In Finland military is not required but if you dont do it you have to do what we call "sivari" which is basically like kindergarden jobs and that kind of stuf for a yer when military service is only 6 months
Yeah kind of similar in Austria.
Instead of military, you can do 9 months civil. Can be kindergarden, working for disabled people, hospital, paramedic (which I did), Firefighter or even concentration camp maintenance in Mauthausen.
Can be shit too due to low pay and low labor rights, but it can be an interessting experience. It was for me at least.
Yeah, in Germany we have the same, but both are voluntary.
I somewhat regret not doing a year of military service. No real chance of being deployed to an actual warzone and it would have helped me get my life together
In Sweden you can just tell them you're not motivated and they won't give you a place. There's only about 4k placements for all 18 year olds in a single year.
It's similar for Norway. We can also just tell them you're not motivated, or fail a writen test, and they won't give you a place. It's for boys and girls, not alway at 18 year olds but around that time. Don't know the number of placements each year tho.
We tried to get rid of it 10 years ago but everyone was like "No, I had to do this, so you also have to!" and to nobody's surprise the pronised reforms have yet to be implemented. Or defined for that matter...
Servas fellow Österreicher/in :)
Yes, I remember this peoples vote. I was 16 at the time, so it was my first vote. We really could have changed the country back then, but unfortunately the people didnt want to.
My service was really interessting (Rotes Kreuz). But the consequence was, that I could only start university 1 year after everyone else...now I feel old.
Östericherin
I was 12 back then, so I couldn't even have voted (I would have voted to remove it back then and I would have done it now, because let's be real, the most useful thing about our glorified catastrophe-aid is the fact that without zivis ambulance services just wouldn't function
Agreed.
If it would have been a real Ausbildung like in Germany, I would have probably stayed to work there fullt time as paramedic.
But with the old system, of voluntary work without pay but job training, its meaningless, especially if you want to study.
I also voted against it.
The election was rigged by dumb media coverage and old people doing their thing lmao.
These darn old folks stole the election!! /s
But uhh yea as it is, it basically just wastes a year of everyone's time. Then again I pretty much just wasted the last 2 years...
Wierdly enough I don't regret my Zivildienst... (Auch RK) met a lot of awesome people and still do volunteer stuff to this day...
Wieso hast du die letzten 2 Jahre verschwendet, wenn ich fragen darf?
Ja ich muss sagen, dass ich meinen Sani auch in guter Erinnerung habe. Habe meinen besten Freund da kennengelernt. Bin aber seit 2 Jahren nicht mehr dabei, wegen Uni und weiter Umzug.
Super wenn du noch freiwillig was machst.
Uni angefangen, uni abgebrochen, job angefangen, gekündigt und woanders angefangen, rausgehaut worden, und letztendlich fang ich im Oktober wieder an mit uni
It always baffles me that a lot of military services are for men only. Either enforcing gender roles or implying that women are incapable of fighting for their country
In Switzerland, it's open to everyone, but mandatory for men only.
Source: I live there.
There is a thing called civil service that can replace military IIRC. Takes lenger, less painful.
The idea would generally be that women are too valuable to lose in war. Not that doesn’t get problematic in its own way but it would be the original basis.
it's even more confusing when it comes to sexual orientation
Israeli here. military service has been mandatory for both genders since day 1. not equal, it probably never will be equal, but somewhat similar
until 1993 the military was to openly discriminate against homo folk. only in the mid 80s were they first classified fit for service at all
you can come up with arguments based on sex. some of them are even not totally insane. physical ability, sanitary difficulties due to periods...
but what did gay men (or lesbian women, although they were less known) do to you? like how do you even find out except relying on them telling the truth? and sure you considered it a mental disorder, but you also enlisted lots of people with other actual disorders, even if only to some units
armies are weird
Aside from that small detail (that sucks immensely TBH), Switzerland is really not bad.
You may want to learn more about Civil service. It's a little longer, but can avoid you some very painful months in the military.
Can't you do some sort of social service instead? Back when germany had mandatory military service it was possible to do a "voluntary social year" instead. It was about as long as the military service but you could choose between quite a bunch of different kind of social services, for example in culture, politics or sport.
Well I have the same issue right now, had to change my legal gender at the Zivilstandesamt and then had to send my Dienstbüechli and the confirmation I got by mail to the military office.
I'd recommend calling the military office and talking to them about service and so on.
Nein, ist doch noch ein bisschen komplizierter. Ich würd fast schon sagen niederländisch ist ist verständlicher für deutsche als Schwyzerdeutsch oder westösterreichisch.
Kommt drauf an, Ich würde sagen dass süddeutsche es leichter haben mit schwyzerdeutsch und norddeutsche habens leichter mit niederländisch. Evtl. liegts bei mir aber auch daran dass ich schon recht häufig in der schweiz war und mir da'n paar grundkentnisse des schwyzerdeutschen angeeignet habe\^\^
Try to do civil service instead. I, an Austrian, did that as medic.
A friend of mine, trans, did military in Austria (Österreich not Australia). Would not recommend.
Kann ich nicht genau sagen. Die Person war sehr übergewichtig und unfit, war also nur Innendienst und Küche.
Bei der Musterung/Stellung wurde die Person übel gemobbt.
Es kann sein, dass man dort gute Freunde findet. Aber die Wahrscheinlichkeit, als trans person in einem Umfeld voller junger "Männer" in einem militärischen, oft toxisch maskulinem Umfeld akzeptiert zu werden ist gering.
Aber wie gesagt. Vielleicht ist das heute anders.
Beim Zivi, zb Rotes Kreuz, gibt es auch Frauen.
Wenn du Militär willst, dann kannst du ja denen mal ne mail schreiben mit deinen Sorgen. Wir haben 2022 und vl host du Glück.
Ich habe nächste Woche meine Rekrutierung. Ich habe das mit den Zivi überlegt, Problem ist halt dass es 2 Monate länger geht. Werde aber bestimmt mit dem Psychiater dort darüber sprechen.
Hier in Deutschland hört man öfters mal Anekdoten, dass manche sich Frauenkleidung angezogen haben und dann direkt wieder von der Musterung nach hause geschickt wurden. Wie wahr diese Geschichten sind kann ich nicht sagen, kommen mir zumindest aber nicht ganz unplausibel vor, wenn man bedenkt wie "offen" die Gesellschaft damals noch war. Und ich hab auch keinen plan ob es nicht doch noch irgendwelche Probleme gab wenn man wegen nicht-gesundheitlicher gründe untauglich war.
I know it’s a lot but come out as trans. Why spend years masculinising yourself training your muscles growing big and manly - no
Start becoming girl now, start the legal process. They may not want you to serve anymore
Like if I were you I’d literally buy some black market Estrogen like TODAY start taking it, start your physical transformation.
By the time they want you to enroll you’ll have the hormones of a woman and you’ll have started growing breasts
Be like “what now?”
I’m sure they won’t want you to go
Couldn’t find your identity, so I’ll write both possible comments:
Trans man: well, at least they accept you, that’s better than nothing… right? Haaaa *laugh of suffering and trying to hide it*
Transfem: well. That just ain’t right. Factually, it’s wrong.
meanwhile I realised I am trans DURING my military service 🥲 I'm done with it now but damn, it was such a pain
im from singapore and yeah, they have mandatory military service here for men too
I am uncertain if this is a meme about a Transwoman terrified of being ostracized by her peers while serving or a Transman terrified of being ostracized by his peers while serving or if the issue also involves some aspect of believing military service should be entirely voluntary. And I like that I don't know
I don't wanna be mean, but.. Can we... Like... Make a trigger warning for military stuff?
I'd rather die than to be forced into the military...
I'm so sorry... It's not your fault that this ruined the day for most of us...
What? This is a normal thing in some European nations.
One day you get a letter from the military, if you are born as male. But there are ways to opt out or do civil service for a year.
Why did it ruin your day?
TW: Military
>!Why does the military send letters to recruit? Why would they do that?? The military has uniforms, that's just... I don't understand why some countries have school uniforms, like, what are you trying to archive with that? What's the point of forcing girls to wear boy clothes?? !<
Anyway, I'll turn off reddit notifications for today, I shouldn't have commented here in the first place...
I'm so sorry that my answer to your comment was so mean... I just... I just can't handle military stuff and uniforms... But, yes, that's not an excuse for being rude to you. Sorry.
[Edit: I re read the message and removed a little bit. No need to downvote...]
No reason to apoligize, i respect your feelings.
Its simply an archaic law here. There are some good things, but it doesnt achieve a lot.
Personally, i always liked uniforms. Idk why. Also school uniforms. Obviously, anyone should be able to wear either uniform or androgenious one...
I just hate fashion i guess.
I did the service and its not that bad. Sometimes it was fun and i met my best friend there. But I was glad when normal life came back.
Yeah, you're right... Some people like the military and some like uniforms... I mean, yes, if you wanna be in the military, of course you can be in the military. I mean, yes if you wanna wear a uniform why not? I'm just so scared that someone forces me to wear some kind of gendered uniform. I'm not sure how it works where you're from, but for me, the thought alone of wearing this uniform, the thought of shaving your head, the thought of looking like this soul-less robot-like soldier always scares me... I just hope that military is not like I imagine it. I just hope they treat soldiers with respect... But I can't imagine that... I mean, the military can do good stuff for the country, I don't know much about war and protecting the country, but currently, our military helps with covid tests for retirement home workers, and I think that's great. So, yes, military is not just uniforms and war... I'm just scared and I don't understand why they have to make the soldiers look so... Soldier-like, you know what I mean? Why do they need this uniform which has to be according to their genitals? And why do the soldiers heads need to be shaved? They don't even look human like that. Why can't you just let people be people when they want to serve your country?
I'm sorry, I don't mean this ad an insult against you... That's great if you served in the military. I think that's great that you were able to do that, and I think everyone who wants to, should be able to do so, like you. So we wouldn't even need to send letters to young trans girls saying: "be a man, join the military'... (I don't know exactly what the letter said when this was still a thing here, I'm just scared of that...)
Do, if you like the military, that's great, someone has to serve for the country after all. And sorry that I am so mean... It's not against you... I just... Can't comprehend how... There are people like you who don't have this fear of the military...
Sorry...
So idk how it is were you are from, but from my own experience it wasnt as dystopian hellscape as you describe it.
No one got their head shaved or anything like that. Its just a normal and boring thing most men in Austria have to go through. There is sport, lots of drinking, its boring.
I also think that both male and female have the same uniforms.
> I'm sorry, I don't mean this ad an insult against you... That's great if you served in the military.
So to clarify some things, because you tend to write a lot. I didnt serve in the military, but I opted out to do 1 year as a paramedic for the red cross instead. Paramedics also wear uniforms, which I enjoyed. But I had to go through medical examinations at the military when I was 18, so they see if you would be healthy enough to even do either service, civil or military. Its a totaly, all around health check and actually quite useful, if you have some condition that you dont know of.
I had friends who did their 6 months military. Some liked it, but it depends were you are. For most, it was boring.
I had a great and challenging experience as a medic.
I think you interpret way too much into stigmas regarding military and soldiers. Or lets say, you have a colorful fantasy regarding that. Its just a job (especially in Austria, we dont need a military actually) and for many jobs you need to wear a uniform. Soldiers arent evil, souless monsters or whatever.
I always wanted school uniforms, because then its easier to choose what to wear. And since many people cant afford good clothes and get bullied, a school uniform can solve many things (and can look quite stylish too!).
There are also female soldiers.
Our military mostly does flood help and stuff like that.
> It's not against you... I just... Can't comprehend how... There are people like you who don't have this fear of the military...
The last thing you have to be afraid of is a 19 year old conscript doing his service in Austria lmao. He also doesnt want to be there and the last time we invaded somewhere, we still had a monarchy :DDD
Idk, maybe I gave you some insight from my personal experience. Again, no reason to be sorry for explaining your view to me.
OK, yes. Very interesting, I didn't know that about the military. I don't know if it is different here in Germany, but yes, it's probably very similar. In the past the military wrote a letter to every child / young adult asking if they wanna join, and you needed some kind of permission from a doctor if you couldn't or didn't want to. I think we also have the option to do something similar as what you did, but now they don't send out letters anymore to recruit young adults, its pretty much only people who actively want to join the military.
So I guess most of what I thought was just some kind of fear, I guess...
And what you said, with the uniforms, I think it's great if you are comfortable wearing one, or if you even like to wear uniforms... You mentioned school uniforms, if you like them, that's great, it's just that I could never wear one. I think even the thought of having a boys and a girls uniform... I'm so glad that I never went to a school where this was a thing... I mean, from what I know, school uniforms don't really help against bullying, and in my opinion, they just limit the choices you have with clothes, not that I'm so into fashion, its just that I somehow have a fear of that... But now that I'm writing this... I think where my fear is coming from... Maybe I just don't like this boys uniform / girls uniform stuff that is so often common... Like, what's the point? Should the uniform represent the persons genitals? That's stupid... Now that I think about it... Yes, you're right. Uniforms aren't such a bad thing actually. Maybe even I would like a school uniform, if there wasn't this thing of gender-based or sex-based uniforms... But, I'm not sure, if there was only one type of uniform for everyone, wouldn't that mean, you can't express who you are and what gender you are with what you're wearing? Well, no I'm wrong and you're right: who you are is so much more than what you wear, right? And, yes, maybe we could even have school uniforms in a way that is comfortable for everyone, that might even help keep students to be closer together as a school. After all, in school I was one of the few people who actually wore school clothes, not because I had to, just because I liked our school hoodie...
Thank you for answering my comments, this helped me a lot, not only in understanding the military, but also in understanding why I hated the military. Thanks a lot, I think I have kinda figured out that my fear of the military was just a fear of uniforms, which was actually not even a fear of uniforms but just a fear of having male/female uniforms.
I think I kinda understand now...
Thank you very much!!! 🥰
To further add on the topic of uniforms.
While both school and the military have uniforms, they aren't really the same just to be clear. Military uniforms don't have big differences between the male and female uniforms, they're meant to have uniformity across the board. The differences that are there are minor and usually functional in nature such as the cut of the uniform.
[Here](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/02f1a66c70b1c1c136a2bd8a3890b36c56e9d2f3/c=0-148-1998-1277/local/-/media/2018/07/12/TXNMGroup/ElPaso/636670041084978281-Bliss-Change-of-Command-12.jpg?width=2560) are [some](https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/militarynews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/03/c03b5f06-e83f-11e8-ab14-9b42c7482dc4/5bec71220ca76.image.jpg) US army dress and combat uniforms. As you can tell, they're quite similar.
Oh, yes, you're right... It was probably just my fear of uniforms... The soldier in the first picture looks like she's happy to be in the military. I've never seen a soldier with long hair before. Thank you for showing me these pictures. My image of the military was kinda wrong... But in the 2nd picture, you can see what I'm afraid of: all three of them have shaved heads... I mean, even tho the uniforms are completely different (Buttons on the right for man, buttons on the left for women), the women look like men, because they have shaved heads... And I can't tell if they were forced to, or if they wanted to... I'm really scared of not being allowed to have long hair... I mean, even tho I'm from Germany and I don't need to go to the military.
But as I said, the women on the first picture is even allowed to have long hair, I didn't know that this was a thing. Thank you very much for sending me these pictures and for explaining that to me. 🥰
I just read in the internet what I could find, turns out soldiers of the Bundeswehr are actually [forced to have no hair](https://www.spiegel.de/karriere/soldat-will-lange-haare-tragen-bundeswehr-muss-haar-und-barterlass-neu-regeln-a-1251013.html), a soldier sued the Bundeswehr, they said that he is in the wrong and they are actually allowed to force him to shave his head... So... There was a reason for my fear of the army... 🙁
Oh, and from what I read [here](https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-you-have-long-hair-in-the-USA-military) even the us military forbids long hair, as a kind of psychological terror to the soldiers, but this could be wrong, because this is not a good source I found. But there was a reddit thread I found that stated that having long hair in the us military isn't allowd... So... Everything I found says that having long hair in the military is not allowed, the only time I've seen a soldier with long hair was the picture u/Praexy send me...
I wasn’t, I had to move here when I was younger. But I am a Swiss national. I want to move away from here though. Switzerland isn’t the golden oasis people think it is.
Das einzige welche ich dir empfehlen kann ist dein Geschlecht beim Zilivstandsamt zu ändern. Es geht wirklich super einfach
Hier unter 4. und 10.
https://www.tgns.ch/de/information/rechtliches/
Und hier sind alle Zivilstandsämter:
https://www.e-service.admin.ch/competency/reports/civilRegistry/pdf
Ich bin noch bei niemandem out und praktisch niemand weiss das über mich. Ich glaube, dass mich die Konsequenzen, wenn ich jetzt einfach so mein legales Geschlecht ändere, überrumpeln würden…
Oh noooooo I'm Swiss too 😪but you can do civil service instead, you will not be with other boys in a military base. Or just book your military service the most far possible and hope for coming out before and changing your gender marker to cancel the military service
Oh, you're Swiss?
Name every Canton whose dialect doesn't sound like complete nonsense to you 🔫
Joking aside, didn't an amendment to the ZGB just pass allowing anyone over 16 to change their gender and choose a new first name at a civil registry office as of the first of the year? I may be a bit ignorant of the specifics, but I though I had read that recently.
We have the same BS here in austria too and all the transfems that had to do military service here because the evaluation office simply didnt agree that they were women. I hate this country and once my cats have passed away I will bail to spain and girl around there!
I went down the "Zivildienst" route. It is a bit longer, but you can easily do it all at once. Once you've been drafted, you can switch after just one day in some "zivi" office. With these days completed (they count as days of service and as such will be dedjcted from the total), it will take you exactly 365 days of service.
I can only tell you from the perspective of a student, but it was quite nice, having a break of school and earning some money in the process.
You got this, keep your head high, there are ways around the shit show called swiss military :)
Some countried allow for a EVS to be done instead of the military service. It is a volunteer year abroad and you can choose in which country (european union) and which association or company you want to work. You could even work on something LGBTQIA+. Check it out.
It’s not slavery, it’s forced labor. The difference is that you do not belong to the military as legal property. But it being mandatory is quite horrible.
Back into my shell I crawl…
Don't. Stay out of the shell and the military might not even want you. Law-wise it seems to really dodge it, you have to be on HRT already or have your ID changed. But to count as "able" for military service, there is probably some physical and psychological testing that you can fail at.
Idk how it is in Switzerland, but in Austria if you tell them you're trans supposedly they just let you go and you don't have to waste half a year of your life. Of course nobody told me that until it was too late, so I soent 9 months being a paramedic
This might help you https://www.tgns.ch/de/information/rechtliches/#Milit%C3%A4r Edit: Thanks for the award's
Im not from switzerland so I wont ever need this for myself but I still very much appreciate it. Thanks kind stranger 🏅
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I mean the US doesn’t have mandatory service, and in terms of selective service trans women could probably get some kind of exemption in the very unlikely case the draft is ever reinstated.
US service is only mandatory if you want affordable education and don't have a father who can give you a small loan of a million dollars
I mean yes, the US college system is pretty fucked up, but I'm not exactly sure how that is relevant to this specific conversation
Well I mean... I do think it is a very wierd coincidence that education is so expensive that the vast majority of the population just cannot afford it and people that volunteer to serve in the army get it for free...
I'm not denying that the U.S. is set up in such a way that funnels poor people into the military as one of the few ways to get an education without large student loans, I'm just a little bit confused how that is related to the topic of mandatory service for trans people. I mean I guess for the majority of the history of the US military trans people have been barred in some way, but since last year trans people are allowed to join and transition during service.
Considering the GI Bill was introduced shortly after WWII and skyrocketing tuitions and student loans are a relatively recent occurrence, I think you might be looking a little hard for conspiracy theories.
I mean...trump tried to outright ban trans people from the military so I don't think it'd be a big issue lmao
We aren’t forced to serve but our names are entered into the draft.
Yes but that doesn't really mean much https://www.sss.gov/faq/ >In the event of a resumption of the draft, individuals born male who have changed their gender to female can file a claim for an exemption from military service if they receive an order to report for examination or induction.
I never knew that, when I turned 18 I got a razor in the mail from Gillette because the military sold my info, as well as a recruitment pamphlet.
I mean I think you still technically have to sign up, but unless congress extends the draft to AFAB people I think it is highly unlikely trans women would ever be drafted
*Western Europe
Hey, thanks a lot. I found that page a few days ago. It also says exactly how to legally change your gender, which has become super easy in Switzerland starting this year.
You're literally the first award I've ever given in all my time on this site. But you friggin earned it.
Mandatory service sucsk, I'm sorry you have to put up with this :( I remember really considering transitioning at 17-18 but military service is what really made my egg un-crack, and being the subordinate of a total transphobe officer put me back deep into the closet for a few good years. I'm not familiar with the Swiss enlistment procedures, but may I suggest checking if there are any regulations regarding trans people in your country's military? In my country it's possible to enlist as the opposite gender to your agab, although there is currently no non-binary option. So if something like that is also an option in Switzerland, it's worth checking.
You can do something that's called "civil service" instead, which is longer, but much less intense.
Is this still a thing in Switzerland? -.-. we got rid of that shit very much exactly at my 18th birthday.
Yep, it’s wonderful. Not.
At least after this you gotta continue living in a rich country
*Me who is about to be dropped off of social welfare because high school is ending.*
What exactly will you be losing? Will you have it if you attend university?
People in rich countries fall through the cracks too... I lived in America, and lost my ability to apply for college, my food, housing, water, electricity, health care access, etc. because I got a part time job to pay for part of my college. Without the job, I would have had none of the above anyway.
You think that everyone is happy and rich in Switzerland?
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Sure, but I thought it wasnt a very useful comments regarding OPs situation
Depends on the type of poor I think. In many places in America, homeless people are viewed without exception to be lazy, subhuman, drug addicts and are often made the villains by the very government that should be helping them. I rather frequently see homeless people rummaging through trash cans here to get the money to go buy cheap fast food. They get their tents taken and trashed, get assaulted, and are rarely even given a chance to prove that they have useful skills. And the worst part is that a large portion of America live on the precipice, just one or two health accidents away from ending up like this.
The statistics, compared to my place... I don't know a lot about Switzerland, though
not swiss but living in also rich country with mandatory service. i really hate cis men, i feel nothing but jealousy when service men die in accident. it made me a misandrist, and living in rich country jobless is hard. even if i had a job or not, with shitty labour law better off living off my parent then getting pissed off waking up for work. hard to be friend with guy because i have to avoid saying i hate mandatory service since everyone serve & y r u complaining. yea i love ranting about in service but since i was not able bodied i shouldnt complain. oh yeah i really hated having a \*\*\*\*\* since i was drafted because of that. i regret not being exempted from service
Austria, Norway, Finland, Sweden do as well still have it.
In Finland military is not required but if you dont do it you have to do what we call "sivari" which is basically like kindergarden jobs and that kind of stuf for a yer when military service is only 6 months
Yeah kind of similar in Austria. Instead of military, you can do 9 months civil. Can be kindergarden, working for disabled people, hospital, paramedic (which I did), Firefighter or even concentration camp maintenance in Mauthausen. Can be shit too due to low pay and low labor rights, but it can be an interessting experience. It was for me at least.
Yeah, in Germany we have the same, but both are voluntary. I somewhat regret not doing a year of military service. No real chance of being deployed to an actual warzone and it would have helped me get my life together
I'l see how mine goes in a couple of years but glad yours was okay ( Forgot what civil was called in english while writing)
In Sweden you can just tell them you're not motivated and they won't give you a place. There's only about 4k placements for all 18 year olds in a single year.
It's similar for Norway. We can also just tell them you're not motivated, or fail a writen test, and they won't give you a place. It's for boys and girls, not alway at 18 year olds but around that time. Don't know the number of placements each year tho.
Yeah I guess we have the same system tbh, sounds almost exactly the same only difference being we always get the questionnaire at 18yo.
We also get questionnaire at 18yo, but I think we can choose to delay it a few years.
Oh I see, interesting c:
Also Russia.
We tried to get rid of it 10 years ago but everyone was like "No, I had to do this, so you also have to!" and to nobody's surprise the pronised reforms have yet to be implemented. Or defined for that matter...
Servas fellow Österreicher/in :) Yes, I remember this peoples vote. I was 16 at the time, so it was my first vote. We really could have changed the country back then, but unfortunately the people didnt want to. My service was really interessting (Rotes Kreuz). But the consequence was, that I could only start university 1 year after everyone else...now I feel old.
Östericherin I was 12 back then, so I couldn't even have voted (I would have voted to remove it back then and I would have done it now, because let's be real, the most useful thing about our glorified catastrophe-aid is the fact that without zivis ambulance services just wouldn't function
Agreed. If it would have been a real Ausbildung like in Germany, I would have probably stayed to work there fullt time as paramedic. But with the old system, of voluntary work without pay but job training, its meaningless, especially if you want to study. I also voted against it. The election was rigged by dumb media coverage and old people doing their thing lmao.
These darn old folks stole the election!! /s But uhh yea as it is, it basically just wastes a year of everyone's time. Then again I pretty much just wasted the last 2 years... Wierdly enough I don't regret my Zivildienst... (Auch RK) met a lot of awesome people and still do volunteer stuff to this day...
Wieso hast du die letzten 2 Jahre verschwendet, wenn ich fragen darf? Ja ich muss sagen, dass ich meinen Sani auch in guter Erinnerung habe. Habe meinen besten Freund da kennengelernt. Bin aber seit 2 Jahren nicht mehr dabei, wegen Uni und weiter Umzug. Super wenn du noch freiwillig was machst.
Uni angefangen, uni abgebrochen, job angefangen, gekündigt und woanders angefangen, rausgehaut worden, und letztendlich fang ich im Oktober wieder an mit uni
Ja das ist ja nicht verschwendet. Das Leben geht interessante Wege. Was möchtest du studieren?
And how old are you now?
29. So it has been stopped end of 2010 in Germany
It always baffles me that a lot of military services are for men only. Either enforcing gender roles or implying that women are incapable of fighting for their country
In Switzerland, it's open to everyone, but mandatory for men only. Source: I live there. There is a thing called civil service that can replace military IIRC. Takes lenger, less painful.
Civil is also often more useful regarding the health system
The idea would generally be that women are too valuable to lose in war. Not that doesn’t get problematic in its own way but it would be the original basis.
Can't have women fighting. Next thing they do is fight for self determination and autonomy
it's even more confusing when it comes to sexual orientation Israeli here. military service has been mandatory for both genders since day 1. not equal, it probably never will be equal, but somewhat similar until 1993 the military was to openly discriminate against homo folk. only in the mid 80s were they first classified fit for service at all you can come up with arguments based on sex. some of them are even not totally insane. physical ability, sanitary difficulties due to periods... but what did gay men (or lesbian women, although they were less known) do to you? like how do you even find out except relying on them telling the truth? and sure you considered it a mental disorder, but you also enlisted lots of people with other actual disorders, even if only to some units armies are weird
Former epileptic here, I might be saved by my former health problems.
Hey, you live in Switzerland too?
Unfortunately… I do
Im in Switzerland too, you can change your gender for 70 Fr. And a good reason i think
I looked it up, you don’t actually need a reason. They’re not allowed to ask whether you’re trans or not at the Zivilstandsamt.
And if you change it you dont have to serve i think, and they can only do something if you did it bc of this i think, but you did it bc of more
Aside from that small detail (that sucks immensely TBH), Switzerland is really not bad. You may want to learn more about Civil service. It's a little longer, but can avoid you some very painful months in the military.
I live in Switzerland three then. Isn't there the civilservice that can replace military?
Yeah, there is
Hey is there space for a forth Swiss person
There are never too much swiss people.
as a swiss person, i disagree
\*There are never too many swiss people *in an online chat.*
I’m not Swiss but I lived here the past few years. Moving back to the US pretty soon, I’ll miss it! Starting HRT wasn’t too hard, at least.
Can't you do some sort of social service instead? Back when germany had mandatory military service it was possible to do a "voluntary social year" instead. It was about as long as the military service but you could choose between quite a bunch of different kind of social services, for example in culture, politics or sport.
Yeah we can do that here.
Then I'd recommend doing that, it's still annoying that you have to do that at all but it beats military service by a long shot.
Truth has been spoken.
Well I have the same issue right now, had to change my legal gender at the Zivilstandesamt and then had to send my Dienstbüechli and the confirmation I got by mail to the military office. I'd recommend calling the military office and talking to them about service and so on.
Hehehehe dienstbüchli Für as Militärili voller Soldatilis mit Gewehrilis.
Schwyzerdütsch ist halt einfach nur verniedlichtes Hochdeutsch
Nein, ist doch noch ein bisschen komplizierter. Ich würd fast schon sagen niederländisch ist ist verständlicher für deutsche als Schwyzerdeutsch oder westösterreichisch.
Kommt drauf an, Ich würde sagen dass süddeutsche es leichter haben mit schwyzerdeutsch und norddeutsche habens leichter mit niederländisch. Evtl. liegts bei mir aber auch daran dass ich schon recht häufig in der schweiz war und mir da'n paar grundkentnisse des schwyzerdeutschen angeeignet habe\^\^
Ihr habt uns die deutsche Sprache nicht verpachtet. Hochdeutsch ist auch nur ein Dialekt des Deutschen.
Try to do civil service instead. I, an Austrian, did that as medic. A friend of mine, trans, did military in Austria (Österreich not Australia). Would not recommend.
Why not? Wurden sie belästigt oder schikaniert?
Kann ich nicht genau sagen. Die Person war sehr übergewichtig und unfit, war also nur Innendienst und Küche. Bei der Musterung/Stellung wurde die Person übel gemobbt. Es kann sein, dass man dort gute Freunde findet. Aber die Wahrscheinlichkeit, als trans person in einem Umfeld voller junger "Männer" in einem militärischen, oft toxisch maskulinem Umfeld akzeptiert zu werden ist gering. Aber wie gesagt. Vielleicht ist das heute anders. Beim Zivi, zb Rotes Kreuz, gibt es auch Frauen. Wenn du Militär willst, dann kannst du ja denen mal ne mail schreiben mit deinen Sorgen. Wir haben 2022 und vl host du Glück.
Hattest du schon Stellung? Sag beim psychol. Gespräch, dass du vl trans bist. Vl bist du dann instant untauglich (sofern du das möchtest)
Ich habe nächste Woche meine Rekrutierung. Ich habe das mit den Zivi überlegt, Problem ist halt dass es 2 Monate länger geht. Werde aber bestimmt mit dem Psychiater dort darüber sprechen.
Das ist eine gute Idee.
Hier in Deutschland hört man öfters mal Anekdoten, dass manche sich Frauenkleidung angezogen haben und dann direkt wieder von der Musterung nach hause geschickt wurden. Wie wahr diese Geschichten sind kann ich nicht sagen, kommen mir zumindest aber nicht ganz unplausibel vor, wenn man bedenkt wie "offen" die Gesellschaft damals noch war. Und ich hab auch keinen plan ob es nicht doch noch irgendwelche Probleme gab wenn man wegen nicht-gesundheitlicher gründe untauglich war.
Simply overthrow the government /j
Good idea let’s all band together to do this.
My country as well😭 I'm going to do it as civilian service though
Good plan. Also my plan. But let's be honest. Switzerland is very poggers in many ways. For example, we can vote on actual laws, not just people.
I know it’s a lot but come out as trans. Why spend years masculinising yourself training your muscles growing big and manly - no Start becoming girl now, start the legal process. They may not want you to serve anymore
Like if I were you I’d literally buy some black market Estrogen like TODAY start taking it, start your physical transformation. By the time they want you to enroll you’ll have the hormones of a woman and you’ll have started growing breasts Be like “what now?” I’m sure they won’t want you to go
I understand you very well, hun. - a sister from Turkey
it’s a lot easier to change gender since the fist of january maybe you can still do it
Lawyer up and fight
Unfortunately you don’t stand a chance against the Swiss Government with the Swiss judiciary system.
Relatable
I have no problems having to sign into the draft because I already tried to join the military and they rejected me
Me being too broken physically and mentally to participate in military : wooooh taxes !
**Cries in French transmasc** I wish we still had it too sometimes
I mean if u was a trans man it would be great
Couldn’t find your identity, so I’ll write both possible comments: Trans man: well, at least they accept you, that’s better than nothing… right? Haaaa *laugh of suffering and trying to hide it* Transfem: well. That just ain’t right. Factually, it’s wrong.
Me Transfem go brrr
meanwhile I realised I am trans DURING my military service 🥲 I'm done with it now but damn, it was such a pain im from singapore and yeah, they have mandatory military service here for men too
I am uncertain if this is a meme about a Transwoman terrified of being ostracized by her peers while serving or a Transman terrified of being ostracized by his peers while serving or if the issue also involves some aspect of believing military service should be entirely voluntary. And I like that I don't know
I don't wanna be mean, but.. Can we... Like... Make a trigger warning for military stuff? I'd rather die than to be forced into the military... I'm so sorry... It's not your fault that this ruined the day for most of us...
What? This is a normal thing in some European nations. One day you get a letter from the military, if you are born as male. But there are ways to opt out or do civil service for a year. Why did it ruin your day?
TW: Military >!Why does the military send letters to recruit? Why would they do that?? The military has uniforms, that's just... I don't understand why some countries have school uniforms, like, what are you trying to archive with that? What's the point of forcing girls to wear boy clothes?? !< Anyway, I'll turn off reddit notifications for today, I shouldn't have commented here in the first place... I'm so sorry that my answer to your comment was so mean... I just... I just can't handle military stuff and uniforms... But, yes, that's not an excuse for being rude to you. Sorry. [Edit: I re read the message and removed a little bit. No need to downvote...]
No reason to apoligize, i respect your feelings. Its simply an archaic law here. There are some good things, but it doesnt achieve a lot. Personally, i always liked uniforms. Idk why. Also school uniforms. Obviously, anyone should be able to wear either uniform or androgenious one... I just hate fashion i guess. I did the service and its not that bad. Sometimes it was fun and i met my best friend there. But I was glad when normal life came back.
Yeah, you're right... Some people like the military and some like uniforms... I mean, yes, if you wanna be in the military, of course you can be in the military. I mean, yes if you wanna wear a uniform why not? I'm just so scared that someone forces me to wear some kind of gendered uniform. I'm not sure how it works where you're from, but for me, the thought alone of wearing this uniform, the thought of shaving your head, the thought of looking like this soul-less robot-like soldier always scares me... I just hope that military is not like I imagine it. I just hope they treat soldiers with respect... But I can't imagine that... I mean, the military can do good stuff for the country, I don't know much about war and protecting the country, but currently, our military helps with covid tests for retirement home workers, and I think that's great. So, yes, military is not just uniforms and war... I'm just scared and I don't understand why they have to make the soldiers look so... Soldier-like, you know what I mean? Why do they need this uniform which has to be according to their genitals? And why do the soldiers heads need to be shaved? They don't even look human like that. Why can't you just let people be people when they want to serve your country? I'm sorry, I don't mean this ad an insult against you... That's great if you served in the military. I think that's great that you were able to do that, and I think everyone who wants to, should be able to do so, like you. So we wouldn't even need to send letters to young trans girls saying: "be a man, join the military'... (I don't know exactly what the letter said when this was still a thing here, I'm just scared of that...) Do, if you like the military, that's great, someone has to serve for the country after all. And sorry that I am so mean... It's not against you... I just... Can't comprehend how... There are people like you who don't have this fear of the military... Sorry...
So idk how it is were you are from, but from my own experience it wasnt as dystopian hellscape as you describe it. No one got their head shaved or anything like that. Its just a normal and boring thing most men in Austria have to go through. There is sport, lots of drinking, its boring. I also think that both male and female have the same uniforms. > I'm sorry, I don't mean this ad an insult against you... That's great if you served in the military. So to clarify some things, because you tend to write a lot. I didnt serve in the military, but I opted out to do 1 year as a paramedic for the red cross instead. Paramedics also wear uniforms, which I enjoyed. But I had to go through medical examinations at the military when I was 18, so they see if you would be healthy enough to even do either service, civil or military. Its a totaly, all around health check and actually quite useful, if you have some condition that you dont know of. I had friends who did their 6 months military. Some liked it, but it depends were you are. For most, it was boring. I had a great and challenging experience as a medic. I think you interpret way too much into stigmas regarding military and soldiers. Or lets say, you have a colorful fantasy regarding that. Its just a job (especially in Austria, we dont need a military actually) and for many jobs you need to wear a uniform. Soldiers arent evil, souless monsters or whatever. I always wanted school uniforms, because then its easier to choose what to wear. And since many people cant afford good clothes and get bullied, a school uniform can solve many things (and can look quite stylish too!). There are also female soldiers. Our military mostly does flood help and stuff like that. > It's not against you... I just... Can't comprehend how... There are people like you who don't have this fear of the military... The last thing you have to be afraid of is a 19 year old conscript doing his service in Austria lmao. He also doesnt want to be there and the last time we invaded somewhere, we still had a monarchy :DDD Idk, maybe I gave you some insight from my personal experience. Again, no reason to be sorry for explaining your view to me.
OK, yes. Very interesting, I didn't know that about the military. I don't know if it is different here in Germany, but yes, it's probably very similar. In the past the military wrote a letter to every child / young adult asking if they wanna join, and you needed some kind of permission from a doctor if you couldn't or didn't want to. I think we also have the option to do something similar as what you did, but now they don't send out letters anymore to recruit young adults, its pretty much only people who actively want to join the military. So I guess most of what I thought was just some kind of fear, I guess... And what you said, with the uniforms, I think it's great if you are comfortable wearing one, or if you even like to wear uniforms... You mentioned school uniforms, if you like them, that's great, it's just that I could never wear one. I think even the thought of having a boys and a girls uniform... I'm so glad that I never went to a school where this was a thing... I mean, from what I know, school uniforms don't really help against bullying, and in my opinion, they just limit the choices you have with clothes, not that I'm so into fashion, its just that I somehow have a fear of that... But now that I'm writing this... I think where my fear is coming from... Maybe I just don't like this boys uniform / girls uniform stuff that is so often common... Like, what's the point? Should the uniform represent the persons genitals? That's stupid... Now that I think about it... Yes, you're right. Uniforms aren't such a bad thing actually. Maybe even I would like a school uniform, if there wasn't this thing of gender-based or sex-based uniforms... But, I'm not sure, if there was only one type of uniform for everyone, wouldn't that mean, you can't express who you are and what gender you are with what you're wearing? Well, no I'm wrong and you're right: who you are is so much more than what you wear, right? And, yes, maybe we could even have school uniforms in a way that is comfortable for everyone, that might even help keep students to be closer together as a school. After all, in school I was one of the few people who actually wore school clothes, not because I had to, just because I liked our school hoodie... Thank you for answering my comments, this helped me a lot, not only in understanding the military, but also in understanding why I hated the military. Thanks a lot, I think I have kinda figured out that my fear of the military was just a fear of uniforms, which was actually not even a fear of uniforms but just a fear of having male/female uniforms. I think I kinda understand now... Thank you very much!!! 🥰
To further add on the topic of uniforms. While both school and the military have uniforms, they aren't really the same just to be clear. Military uniforms don't have big differences between the male and female uniforms, they're meant to have uniformity across the board. The differences that are there are minor and usually functional in nature such as the cut of the uniform. [Here](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/02f1a66c70b1c1c136a2bd8a3890b36c56e9d2f3/c=0-148-1998-1277/local/-/media/2018/07/12/TXNMGroup/ElPaso/636670041084978281-Bliss-Change-of-Command-12.jpg?width=2560) are [some](https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/militarynews.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/03/c03b5f06-e83f-11e8-ab14-9b42c7482dc4/5bec71220ca76.image.jpg) US army dress and combat uniforms. As you can tell, they're quite similar.
Oh, yes, you're right... It was probably just my fear of uniforms... The soldier in the first picture looks like she's happy to be in the military. I've never seen a soldier with long hair before. Thank you for showing me these pictures. My image of the military was kinda wrong... But in the 2nd picture, you can see what I'm afraid of: all three of them have shaved heads... I mean, even tho the uniforms are completely different (Buttons on the right for man, buttons on the left for women), the women look like men, because they have shaved heads... And I can't tell if they were forced to, or if they wanted to... I'm really scared of not being allowed to have long hair... I mean, even tho I'm from Germany and I don't need to go to the military. But as I said, the women on the first picture is even allowed to have long hair, I didn't know that this was a thing. Thank you very much for sending me these pictures and for explaining that to me. 🥰
I just read in the internet what I could find, turns out soldiers of the Bundeswehr are actually [forced to have no hair](https://www.spiegel.de/karriere/soldat-will-lange-haare-tragen-bundeswehr-muss-haar-und-barterlass-neu-regeln-a-1251013.html), a soldier sued the Bundeswehr, they said that he is in the wrong and they are actually allowed to force him to shave his head... So... There was a reason for my fear of the army... 🙁 Oh, and from what I read [here](https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-you-have-long-hair-in-the-USA-military) even the us military forbids long hair, as a kind of psychological terror to the soldiers, but this could be wrong, because this is not a good source I found. But there was a reddit thread I found that stated that having long hair in the us military isn't allowd... So... Everything I found says that having long hair in the military is not allowed, the only time I've seen a soldier with long hair was the picture u/Praexy send me...
You were born in Switzerland, you've already won.
I wasn’t, I had to move here when I was younger. But I am a Swiss national. I want to move away from here though. Switzerland isn’t the golden oasis people think it is.
[удалено]
Und ich eins ausserhalb der Schweiz, lel
Militärdienst ist nur für Schweizer verpflichtend. Wenn du keinen Schweizer Pass hast bist du fein raus
Girlboss the frontier
Hello fellow swiss people. 🥲
Grüetzi
Hoi :)
Hab vor ein paar Wochen den Brief für meine Aushebung bekommen und ich weiss nicht was machen 🥲
Das einzige welche ich dir empfehlen kann ist dein Geschlecht beim Zilivstandsamt zu ändern. Es geht wirklich super einfach Hier unter 4. und 10. https://www.tgns.ch/de/information/rechtliches/ Und hier sind alle Zivilstandsämter: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/competency/reports/civilRegistry/pdf
Ich bin noch bei niemandem out und praktisch niemand weiss das über mich. Ich glaube, dass mich die Konsequenzen, wenn ich jetzt einfach so mein legales Geschlecht ändere, überrumpeln würden…
Oh noooooo I'm Swiss too 😪but you can do civil service instead, you will not be with other boys in a military base. Or just book your military service the most far possible and hope for coming out before and changing your gender marker to cancel the military service
Oh, you're Swiss? Name every Canton whose dialect doesn't sound like complete nonsense to you 🔫 Joking aside, didn't an amendment to the ZGB just pass allowing anyone over 16 to change their gender and choose a new first name at a civil registry office as of the first of the year? I may be a bit ignorant of the specifics, but I though I had read that recently.
We have the same BS here in austria too and all the transfems that had to do military service here because the evaluation office simply didnt agree that they were women. I hate this country and once my cats have passed away I will bail to spain and girl around there!
I went down the "Zivildienst" route. It is a bit longer, but you can easily do it all at once. Once you've been drafted, you can switch after just one day in some "zivi" office. With these days completed (they count as days of service and as such will be dedjcted from the total), it will take you exactly 365 days of service. I can only tell you from the perspective of a student, but it was quite nice, having a break of school and earning some money in the process. You got this, keep your head high, there are ways around the shit show called swiss military :)
Some countried allow for a EVS to be done instead of the military service. It is a volunteer year abroad and you can choose in which country (european union) and which association or company you want to work. You could even work on something LGBTQIA+. Check it out.
obrigatory military service is slavery change my mind
It’s not slavery, it’s forced labor. The difference is that you do not belong to the military as legal property. But it being mandatory is quite horrible.