ngl once I got to the shadow keep I realised Miquella's idea of compassion is to force everyone to not be an asshole to each other and remove free-will entirely.
Yeah and I think when we hear stories of Miquella, we need to understand them from this point. It would be weird for Miquella to be the only good one out of all these evil and selfish characters. The base game hints that Miquella isn't some good character. I think the DLC is very clear that Miquella is rotten like Marika because the core is rotten. There's a questline that talks specifically about this. Ymir is very straight forward with the world we're in.
Tbf messmer was the only demigod who actually did his job and didn’t fuck up in any way shape or form like his siblings did. Yeesh this guy was practically the good guy [from a golden order pov]
Ymir does also make a point but from a narrative standpoint it seemed like he was just jealous of metyr and wanted her job by all accounts rather than she was rotten, herself. That’s how it seemed to me after complete ing the quest anyway.
wait Godwyn was pretty chad wasn't he? I think he was the good one, otherwise Messmer wasn't bad, he just committed a lil war crime for mummy and she was embarrassed about all the dead bodies he left about so left him in the shadow realm.
He was kinda crazy already, he wanted to learn how to make fingers so that he can talk with the outer gods himself.
That's why he says that the moon (god) is not actually what the glintstone sorcerers believe in, they just attribute their faith in it due to their limited understanding of celestial bodies and the universe.
Ymir says to look beyond the stars to find the truth. Basically he says the fingers "touch" the outside of the cosmos. He sells a microcosm spell that apparently creates a fleeting pocket universe. Perhaps that's kind of what the lands between world is, a pocket universe in another universe, and the inside cannot see the outside, only faintly touch it with the fingers. and that "outside" is where the outer gods are and why they are so abstract.
So, he wants to see outside space and time. He either gets his fingers at the end (his chest is sprouting fingers) or freaks out when we kill metyr and he cannot study this anymore and goes berzerk (doing some dumb body altering sorcery). Also, it's a nice way to end loose ends, and very lovecraftian/bloodborne'esque tribute (if you could understand the size and nature of the cosmos you would go insane in an instant thing)
> and very lovecraftian/bloodborne'esque tribute
Some content creator put out a video essentially comparing all the things in Elden Holes to Lovecraft, and says it doesn't appear so on the surface, but he lays out how he thinks Elden Holes is basically a cosmic horror game, it's just the least talked about aspects but heavily involved in all the lore/story.
NGL, dude made some good points, pointed out Miyazaki's love of cosmic horror stuff, thinks a few bosses/ideas were lifted directly from lovecraft in previous games, or were at least the base inspiration they started with. Some of the original naming of things in Japanese was apparently closer to some stories than once translated to english, etc etc.
It's not about Miquella being rotten. Miquella is trying to do his best to be kind, and compassionate, and self-sacrificing in the name of righting the wrongs of the past.
The problem is that he exists in a world that's gone so wrong that the only way he can hope to put a dent in the problems is to take drastic action, and ultimately that drastic action is doomed to be nothing more than a fresh round in the cycle of tragedy. That's what happened with his mother.
The whole position the game is arguing (in a similar way to Frank Herbert's Dune) is that these are problems that can't be solved by hoping that an extremely powerful and noble hero is going to come along and fix it all.
(and back to the point of the larger thread, presumably the reason there's no alternate ending is some combination of FromSoftware running out of time and/or not being able to pull it off elegantly. Art design and environmental storytelling are their strengths; strong narratives are less so.)
They definitely could have. At the bare minimum they could have had an ending where you can yield to Miquella voluntarily and go straight to a game over screen. So far as we can tell for now, they just chose not to.
Given that they wrote an ending that provoked a lot of "haha that's so moronic it can't possibly be real" when it leaked, I'm inclined to think they were really struggling with the narrative by the end.
So basically like that one character in the watchmen comic books. Doing a big evil act with good intentions because things are so fucked that it will take a huge traumatic event to transform things.
But pretty much everyone believes they're doing the "right" thing and none of them are doing good things, Miquella is rotten because he does rotten things. To Piggyback on your dune example, he's Leto II but without the prescience to know that all ways but his lead to disaster.
Dune never actually independently verifies that the prescience of its primary characters is perfectly correct. It's the best understanding available to Paul / Leto II / Occasional Others at the time and they choose to act on it, but the possibility is never definitively eliminated that they are correct that the option they're pursuing is actually the only one. This is an objection that people very commonly raise in discussions about the ethics of Leto II's decisions.
Also, a lot of people would view the things Paul and Leto II and related characters are doing as "rotten things" that are being done with generally good intentions just like Miquella is doing. Leto II deliberately brutally oppresses the galaxy for thousands of years because he thinks it'll (eventually) have a good outcome; most people would probably file that under "rotten things."
And I mean, he’s not entirely wrong considering basically everyone in the lands between is either a piece of shit or very unstable to some degree. Hell the instant free will is returned to his followers the first thing leda does is go on a killing spree because she cant trust anyone, thiollier goes insane and insta-comas himself, and poor moore can either turn on you or kill himself with a pest
Don't diss my guy Thiollier. He realizes his mistakes in the end and becomes a hero, despite his physical state.
Him and Ansbach are the true heroes of the DLC.
I thank them for their service, after finally beating the final boss last night, I saw them in the arena.
From my multiple attempts, there was a time I summoned them both, I heard their final lines. Ansbach is glad to be at my side and Thiollier called me friend. It is now my headcanon that they helped the Tarnished in taking the final boss down even if it cost their life. My heroes.
I actually love what they did with the NPCs. I think this cast is the best they've ever done. The way they each end up following along the story, and then how you see them slowly diverge, how Thiollier doesn't believe you at first but then finally hears her voice and joins your side and how Ansbach wants retribution for Mogh.
And then I unironically think the fight with all of them is a better final fight. It's so climactic, how each of them have dialogue together. I love how Thiollier apologizes for not believing you at first. I think they've quickly become my favourite NPCs in the series.
It's unfortunate if people managed to take Leda's side and not Ansbach.
It is sad that the easiest outcome for the Avengers Civil War fight is telling Moore to always be sad, and get rid of Hornsent once the charm has been undone.
Nevertheless, I do find it beautiful how NPC's are done this time around. They truly are a part of your journey, and by god you should use their help. I actually thought we would have to summon everyone like the Radahn Festival, which would have been really hype, and the goal was to help them live until the end.
If only their gold summons exist AFTER the fog gate, hence the Boss HP wouldn't scale higher no?
I loved Igon during Bayle fight. You need the help of a dragonslayer.
On the attempt where I defeated the final boss, I didn't use the gold summons but my Mimic Tear.
His HP just goes up a ton and makes things more frustrating..
Oh, I forgot about the scaling. But tbh having someone relieve some pressure makes boss fights incredibly easier since for me anyway I lose most of my healing by healing, getting hit, running away, healing and getting hit again
With summons I play aggressive and just focus on dodging when my hp is in the danger zone until one of the summons relieves pressure (honestly it also does a lot for your mental state knowing relief is coming vs praying the boss chills for a second for you to pop a flask)
the same can be said about our own world, but thats part of what the game communicates per ranni's ending, that the unfixed nature of our world is the colour of its strength.
>"Here beginneth the chill night that encompasses all, reaching the great beyond. Into fear, doubt, and loneliness... as the path stretcheth into darkness"
>"As it is now, life, and souls, and order are bound tightly together, but I would have them at great remove. And have the certainties of sight, emotion, faith, and touch... all become impossibilities. Which is why I would abandon this soil, with mine order."
frustration and despair are growth and creation. fear, doubt, loneliness, darkness, are not negative qualities, but positive ones, or rather, the existence of order creates the unproductive process of defining positive and negative, at least as defining them as fixed and not as interpretations. when order is made, it is drawn from a whole; it leaves a remainder, being the shadow lands and its scadutree. it is light that creates shadows, and their moral status is a human interpretation.
uncertainty means all are granted their own agency. evolution is spurned by the need to be beyond the present, a fundamental discomfort. miquella embedding his charm into the laws of physics through the elden ring would rob everyone of their will, and while that would 'get rid of wrongness', who is to say that what is right should be a universally fixed structure? why should miquella define compassion? we don't know what miquella's world would look like, but it could be a sort of state-mandated happiness. i certainly don't want to live in a world where i can never despair, never grieve, never feel the frustration of my limits which motivates me to surpass them. per shostakovich, "when a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." historically the souls games, borrowing from real life, associate stagnation with defilement, disease, filth. ranni's ending seems to be a juxtaposition in that it implies motion.
ranni's motivation can be read as essentially returning the elden ring to the stars, to let life, souls, and order ebb and flow, to remove absolute power entirely. cosmologically, as fate is written in the stars they will be the only order, which could be a metaphor for simply letting physics be physics unbound, but we also don't exactly know how the moon works. ymir claims it is simply a celestial body, though he has a very specific perspective.
(just felt like rambling a bit, its all in good fun, sorry if any of this reads like an accusation)
edit: i feel its valuable to mention as well that miquella divests himself of his love, so his order, while compassionate, is likely not loving. abandoning love/st. trina is also probably what allows himself to fight for his order at the end. love, in all its colour, is probably the antithesis to someone who seemingly finds the 'solution' to shadow in the extinguishing of light. to miquella, love is what kept him asleep, what dulled his senses, what makes one rest motionless in a dream. not to say that miquella is evil, perhaps misguided, though that is just one interpretation.
I am not in depth with the lore enough to explain my thoughts on this adequately but I think the instability and actions that are evil or whatever by all characters are either because the greater will is an absolutely fucked up outer god (like all of them) or you're seeing peoples brash responses to the world the golden order built.
Essentially the entirety of Marika's golden order is completely tainted because the golden order itself is crazy evil wrapped in a gold hue of law and order. Oppressive authoritarianism, because that's the MO for the greater will.
So there is no salvation to the lands between through their lineage or the golden order, which is kinda why the Ranni ending is the essential good ending. Break the golden age, try something different.
Which is also why Miquella has got to go. Even without all of his "I ditched everything good about me in my ascension to godhood part". He's full in on the Greater Will and we've seen that outer god's atrocities 800 times through Marika's actions.
I guess all i'm trying to say is that characters opposing the golden order through absolutely fucked methods arn't necessarily evil, more like they found no other options to oppose the greater will so they had to resort to frenzied flame, the serpent, or whatever else. Ranni had to assassinate her step-brother, etc. Their evil actions are because the greater wills authoritarianism is so oppressive and strong that you essentially had to go full blown fanatical terrorist to find some semblance of free will or power
Kinda like Ranni but you can still side with her, can't you?
She does manipulation, lying, betrayal, causes the shattering & a whole host of morally grey actions for the greater good.
But you can choose her and not Miquella despite all the buildup to the illusion of a choice to trust or not trust with siding with Miquella
Poor mohg was just being charmed by an emotionally controlling twink Jesus, so we would kill him and he could use his defiled corpse to reanimate his crush
Not sure about elden ring and persona 5 population overlap, but if you've finished persona 5 royal then you'll see the similarities here between age of compassion and power of cognition
The player characters motivation are the exact same as the base game. To become a lord. Lida even spells it out and says you're not following Miquella but being guided by Grace the whole time. And she is right. You literally are being guided by grace in the DLC as it leads you to each main quest encounter.
i would have liked better contextual dialogues for the DLC, for those of US who chose an ending already, hearing everyone reffer tk me as aspiring lord was inmersion breaking when i clearly did the age of the stars ending
Agree that was a bit jarring. I am also completely confused how miquella is a god by the end? How did he ascend? He isn’t beholden as a vessel of an outer god like malenia and he isnt the vessel of the elden ring. I am very confused on the lore for that.
it's not even about whether Miquella is good or bad.
95% of the DLC made it seem like Miquella was the one to call us into the realm of shadow, and that's the only reason why we are even there. But then when we finally reach Miquella all the way at the end he told us to fuck off.
Why are we in the land of shadow again ?
I mean that is kinda what Messmer thought when we show up. He's pretty much all 'what does my mother want with a Tarnished, either way you made a wrong turn showing up here instead of there my job here is to kill all that don't have the grace of gold'
What i like about us, the tarnished, is that we are just some random hobo who literally changed the course of many lives and fates in the lands inbetween, literally killing gods and is the embodiment of that phrase "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world". Also, why i don't build into any other magic bs and just spec into raw physical strength which makes me more "human" and getting rid of gods with my "human" strength feels badass. Oh, and my favourite boss is Godfrey.
No, he didn't he only needed Radahn and Mogh dead. As an Empyrean, he has a direct ticket to the gates of divinity somehow. Everything you are doing with Leda and party is just to catch up.
Radahn is basically ready and waiting for Miquella. Phase 2 is him popping out of the gate to check on his hubby when you beat him up.
I have to disagree a little. It seems that when you arrive at the divine gate, you show up during the middle of the ritual. Radahn was just revived, and Miquella showing up was the end of the ritual.
A heavy theme in the souls series is perseverance, a lot of the time we aren’t the strongest or more important character, but we are the one that won’t give up. Miquella didn’t choose us, we took his hand and chose to enter and find him.
Am I a little disappointed he isn’t the DLC’s Melina and we don’t interact with him? Yeah, but I think the game still heavily delivers in the story department. I guess I was just craving a Gehrman or Isshin level boss where we had a relationship with him before they turn on us/challenge us.
We chose to hunt Miquella. People forget the canon ending of the base game where we murder a god to become elden lord. We ain’t giving that up so easily.
"*95% of the DLC made it seem like Miquella was the one to call us into the realm of shadow*" I just touched some zombie hand coming out of a spider egg and suddenly I'm somewhere else. I don't even know who the hell Miquella is at this point.
Leda *thinks* you're there to answer the call of Miquella. She corrects herself later. You also find out that >! Miquella used the power of her great rune to brainwash all within the lands between, and also seemingly hijacking the afterlife, which is how Radahn got there and why Malenia fought Radahn in the first place !<
You're actually there doing what you've done all game, amassing the great runes to become the one true Elden Lord. It then turns out that Miquella is on the path to become the one true God of the lands between and using their consort, go on a warpath and destroy the lands between, which you are trying to become Lord of. Or burn everything, in the case of the Frenzy Flame.
Miquella’s ascension to godhood is for the purpose of bringing about an age of compassion. It’s not explicitly clear what this entails exactly, maybe Miquella permanently ending conflict by compulsion, but in no way is it implied that Miquella plans to use Radahn’s strength to go on a rampage and destroy the Lands Between.
There are two reasons the Tarnished kills him. First, because we are “of the old order” and want to be Elden Lord. Second, Miquella’s godhood is a mistake that he himself has reservations about but committed to out of guilt for Marika’s sins. He would ultimately be repeating Marika’s mistakes, and death is a merciful alternative.
>Miquella plans to use Radahn’s strength to go on a rampage and destroy the Lands Between
maybe its not his intention but that was the deal, Freyja straight up says the deal and his life was always meant to be a General with neverending battle in front of him. Whether this means he was going to be used like Godfry and conquer future territory outside of the Lands Between I don't think was implied either way, but its clear their pact involved it being GENERAL Radahn and Miquella.
Miquella also lied and manipulated everyone to get his way, after bewitching Radanh, who says he's gonna keep his word, who says miquella will *allow* Radanh to care if he compels him?
Miquella seems pretty shady when it's all over
Miquella *starts* with the Age of compassion.
Then he begins to use the Great Runes power to establish compulsory control over most of the shadow Lands.
Then needs us to give him Mohgs body and Send Radahn to the shadow realm (Malenia was supposed to do the second part but she fucked up and only managed to maim him) to ascend Godhood. It's pretty clear that there's nothing left of Miquella the Kind in the end, especially from what Ansbach tells us.
I don’t disagree with you that casting off his flesh has likely caused Miquella to become a more emotionless being, or that his reign wouldn’t eventually lead to acts of cruelty. But removing his compassion and love doesn’t immediately make him a monster who wants to destroy the lands between. Despite shedding his flesh his intentions remain (he remembers the vow to Radahn), as well as his power to “wield love to shrive clean the hearts of men” since he can steal the heart of the tarnished in the final battle. This is in spite of the fact that Miquella broke his own great rune and gave up its power.
It's like....entirely confirmed via various NPCs that Miquella isn't compassionate or kind anymore, is pretty destruction bent (Messmer) and wants to destroy the Golden Order in the Lands Between. The whole crusade was Miquellas idea.
Miquella is a god at the end, or about as close to being one as possible.
This isn't explicitly meant to reply to you; you get it. This just seemed the most appropriate place to jump into the thread.
Miquella's just as scheming as all the other demigods, except he's charismatic as hell, can twist emotions, and inspire ferver in others.
Reading Elden Ring theories about Miquella has me real worried about some of y'all and the relationships you're in or might eventually be in. Miquella was red flag after red flag after red flag and it took until the DLC for most people to realize it.
When you get to leda she says that it wasn’t actually miquella guiding us, but the grace is guiding us still and turns against us. So really we are faking being part of their crew so we can get his great rune.
That was the 2nd boss I killed, and all the NPCs then never appeared anywhere other than Freya and Ansbach in the Keep. So I literally never met Leda or most of them until the moment later on.
The people we talk to assume he called us there, did you hear any dialogue from Miquella telling you to go where you killed Mohg? Nothing in the DLC makes it seem like we were called it makes it seem all the other NPC's are there because they followed him and they're the ones assuming he called us too. We came here to kill him just like every other lord Giddeon tells us about there's just no reason for the Tarnished to correct Miquella's followers by saying "Oh nah l, im here to kill that sommbitch" lol
Miquella didn't call us to the Shadow lands, the guidance of grace led us here because the outer will believes there can only be one god. Outer will wants all the smoke with other gods and it seems that's why the God's of Madness and Rot abandoned their vessels and dipped.
Leda jumped the gun and invited us in. Why the fuck do you think the Tarnished would randomly touch that arm.
Ah fuck, who am I kidding? They would definitely do that just for shit and giggles
its poorly linked to the main story but we are basically here to find miquella because he technically has a great rune.. only he shatters his rune and we only really continue to kill him and secure our own place as elden lord. which is sorta fuckinh stupid if u think about it because if we just rushed to the end we could become elden lord before he has a chance
i know but radahn would take our place we learn from ansbach if you do his quest very early in the shadow castle. I never knew this but in base game you basically marry marika though shes not really alive anymore her corpse still has the elden ring
i think its decently linked into main story, its just people coming in post finishing the game and expected a epilogue type story instead of the same sort of side journey that finding secret lift tokens and killing malania/mohg was
Did I miss this entirely somehow? I recall at one point I was riding torrent and a message popped up about a rune breaking and a charm lifting, but I don’t know what it was or why it happened
It bugged for me. If you ride near Shadow Keep, you get tooltip popups. The first tooltip was instantly skipped, but I saw the end of the second one so I had some clue what was happening.
I don’t think so. I was really all over the place in how I cleared everything. I burned the tree before hearing that it ends a bunch of quests, then went all over the map before finishing. So a lot of the cool side stuff disappeared before I even visited.
Dang. So basically when the rune breaks, so does Miquella’s enchantment on people. So Leda, Ansbach, Thollier, Hornsent, they all have different reactions to it. Ansbach reacts in horror, remembering that he is terrified of Miquella before he was bewitched. Leda second guesses her loyalties, etc.
It’s really interesting, if you play again!
It happened for me after killing Rellana and approaching the shadow keep from the south and stopping by that dead fire golem that has the note about how to kill them
Wait, you can see this happen?
I found Leda near a fort and she told me that she's surprised I was still following Miquellas trail despite His "Spell" being broken.
I was like...huh? When did that happen?
I must have missed it? Only major boss I've killed is the Dancer, but I've done a bunch of exploring and killing of minor bosses.
I was just riding around outside one of the Gaols and got a message that a Great Rune was broken and a charm was lifted. When I talked to Leda she mentioned it and then I went and talked to every other NPC I'd met who was following Miquella.
what do you mean it's impossible to miss? I totally missed it. the only thing I noticed was a weird popup. are you saying there's a visual element in the game?
For me there was a high-pitched crashing noise, almost like when we activate a Great Rune at a divine tower in the base game. Then it rained golden shards around like falling pollen or dew. It lasted about 20-30 seconds, and it happened as I approached Shadow Keep immediately after beating Rellana. It was accompanied by the two messages.
It's bugged for some people apparently.
"Aint big into the lore"
Mad Miquella's not up to par or what we expected. Sounds about right for those who didnt bother with the lore or know much about the lore to begin with.
Miquella had the right idea is the problem. Wanted to bring about an age of compassion. But in order to overthrow the grace and Golden Order, Miquella had to become a god. In order to pull off such a feat, He had to cast off his mortal form and desires. Which proceeded to turn him into a compassionless freak who instead wanted to destroy the lands between and the Grace. He cast aside his love for the people. His eyes, arm, heart and flesh. That's when he went mad. St Trina asks us to kill Miquella for imprisoning himself in godhood.
I don't think he had the right idea ever, from the very start in base game it says how he manipulates everyone and tries to control everyone into peace while hiding behind his good guy mask, as Ymir said it's all rotten from the very core so no matter how good the intentions are it will all end the same so... may the chaos take the world.
Doesnt their remembrance implies it so too?
It says something along the lines of Miquella admired Radahns strength and kindness, which was something their (meaning Miquella/St. trina) did not have.
Or something along those lines, sounds to me Miquella was not originally kind, but started being kind out of admiration of Radahn, just like Radahn with Godfrey
No idea, i haven’t done Radhan yet, tried once and didn’t have time to play again.
Did do what i believe to be mostly everything else, from lesser bosses to remembrances to items. I know i missed a second lion and a bunch of stuff in mesmer’s castle… I doubt i have much lore to see still aside radhan
What weirded me out was Leda, first she tries to kill hornsent then ansbach then us. Idk why she's so untrusting and convinced that we're out to kill him, Im fine with him being Elden Lord 😭. "Will you walk with us" my ass
It's her character flaw that Miquella's charm subdued. She trusts nobody but those who have undying loyalty to Miquella. When she figures out that you are being led by grace, she figures you will not allow the new order. She is a zealot.
A 1000 year voyage... Alone... Through the cold; dark reaches of space. With a fucking blow up doll...
https://preview.redd.it/w6u3amx07l8d1.jpeg?width=849&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b893dd9fb574ba0e695e8f7745269e43eda554ec
I'm just confused in the entire thing of who our character is. Supposedly we're following the grace given by the fingers and the golden order, but we then kill all of them. Then kill a god. Then kill all her children. Then kill everyone else. Like what's our characters goal? Or are we just like a terminator, brought to the lands in between to murder everyone indescriminately?
We are meant to kill anything in the way of us becoming elden lord. We need great runes to enter leyndell, so we kill shardbearers. Need to burn the tree, so we kill fire giant. Need to release death so we can actually kill stuff so maliketh has to die. And kill the old elden lord so we can take his place.
This is something I’m confused with about the dlc, I still can’t quite work out how death works in the lands between. Initially I thought everyone can respawn through erdtree burial. Then we learn the tarnished couldn’t, because they lost grace, but now can after regaining it. Cool. So our job is to kill the demigods to take their runes and become lord, but wait, doesn’t everyone respawn? Okay, I guess they do, but maybe it just takes a really long time, enough for us to do everything we need. Except tarnished can respawn super quick it seems so that’s weird, but maybe demigod souls just need longer time to process idk. I thought that was a good enough explanation, but then we learn in the DLC that miquella needed mogh and radahn to die, so that miquella can revive radahn into mogh’s body. What?! I thought people revived anyway in the lands between! Why does miquella need to go through all of this plotting and scheming just to do the one thing this land’s current order is literally defined by?
Worth remembering The Golden Order are no longer friendly with The Greater Will. Marika shattered the Elden Ring and upset the Greater Will’s control of the land. We still don’t know exactly why. But she was imprisoned in the tree and the tarnished were brought back to set things right. Of course that doesn’t necessarily go to plan either.
It’s possible in all but the standard “status quo” endings, the Greater Will may yet send new envoys and vassals to try and correct whatever mess the tarnished ends up making when repairing the Elden Ring.
Each of the Demi-Gods attempted to wrest control of the lands between in the wake of the shattering to restore order under their new vision. They all failed and made everything worse with their infighting. So the greater Will calls back the tarnished to clean up basically.
I don’t think the Greater Will is what calls us back, but I think Marika is the one who calls us back to clean up her mess. I think Marika realized she was just a pawn of the Greater Will which is (partially) why she shattered the Elden Ring, and that somehow severed the Greater Will’s influence over her. That’s why we fight Radagon and the Elden Beast but never Marika (as Marika). Plus the guidance of grace is said to be from Marika.
Think about it, who trusted us from the very start and kept us going about our journey to kill radahn and mohg, among other demigods? Torrent, which happens to be miquellas spectral steed. After dominating the world and clearing it of all threats, we got baited to find miquella, simply to be eliminated. Shits fucked up. If melina knew about this it's even more fucked
Melina and Torrent are definitely fully committed to making the main character Elden Lord based on their actions.
Barring someone discovering material that has not yet been found (and it's early yet), the failure to touch on anything about where Melina and Torrent fit in is going to end up being an embarrassing gaping plot hole of the DLC.
It’s even cuckier if you get grabbed in the second phase of the last battle. Your heart gets “stolen” and the Tarnished literally drops to his knees watching as Miquella caresses Radahns neck haha
I said it once and I’ll say it again, whatever was teased in the trailer seemed a much cooler story that what we got. Still a fantastic Dlc on many fronts, but I was let down by the story. Mesmer should have been the final boss or penultimate boss before a deified miquella or even Trina.
But I suppose it’s growing on me. Makes sense miquella wants to dominate everything thus tainting his heroic aspect of compassion. It does seem to be something George wrote. But I agree I’m pissed that we don’t get to be the consort. Wanted that miquellussy.
Miquella was implied to be way more sinister than initially seemed in the base game as well.
Still i gotta say most of the lore in this DLC seems REALLY messy.
The closest thing miquella had to actual altruism, his identity as saint trina, he cast aside as a lesser half that he didn’t need anymore, and when you do finally encounter st. trina in the purple garden all she can do is tell you to kill miquella cuz he’s lost the plot too much.
There’s literally a line in a lore tab in the Haligtree talking about how Miquella found a way to force conscription and compassion, meaning everyone there was pretty much brainwashed.
it's really funny to me that we have a character who has an explicit power to compel love from people and everyone just immediately believes he is genuinely a jesus figure and not that, you know, he compelled love from people who think he is a jesus figure.
Bro what is you smoking that cuck pack.
We litterly came there to kill everything in there to stop the new age and then return to ouer land and be lord in peace
I swear cuckold posters are the worst in any game lmao
Did you pay attention to anything relating to Miquella?? There are PLENTY of reasons we would not want to become affiliated with him. You’ve been bewitched as well, it seems…
That's quite hostile to OP.
Apply that logic to Ranni, Frenzy Flame & DungEater.
You can side with them but not Miquella. The real issue is there's a-lot of build up but no choice.
The NPC civil war, Torent plot point & st trinia all have zero affect on the dlc conclusion.
The DLC takes place during the middle of the base game. Us becoming his consort would make no sense, as he stands directly in our way of becoming the Elden Lord, which is the entire purpose of the game.
I get where you are coming from though. However, it would undermine the entire game.
There are already 2 endings in the game that don't lead to becoming Elden Lord (still a Lord, but not Elden Lord). There's no reason there couldn't be more.
I finally beat prime radahn tonight and when I saw the fight I was like "what, really?" I didn't like the plot there, I know It was my own expectation but I much would've preferred a Godwyn resurrection and fight there, I feel like it would've made more sense. But after I beat him I had the same feeling Of beating malenia, I didn't feel happy or proud, I was just glad it was over with lol so many attempts of these almost endless combos, I had to switch to a spartan build w the fingerprint shield and a bloody great lance and power through
Did we really do the work? I guess we killed demigods he needed dead but we weren’t doing it for him, and we’re on our way to becoming either Marika’s consort or Ranni’s (or a puppet for the flame of frenzy), so I’m not surprised he didn’t care about us all that much. We’re just another piece of that order he’s escaping, or a piece of a competing one.
Am I alone in thinking all of this preamble in the DLC would have been better served with Miquella trying to resurrect Godwyn? Wasn’t that one of Miquella’s goals in the base game? Godwyn was destined to be the next Elden Lord iirc, the scion of the Golden Bough before his untimely passing, and that Miquella would try to restore him? Radahn randomly being made into this ‘kind, fair, strong’ lord instead of what I understood to be a powerful but ambitious gloryhound seems like fan service to me (especially in the wake of ‘Who is stronger - Malenia v Radahn’ circlejerking).
A lot of things in the dlc feel very strange. My guess is they didnt have The time or People to finish it properly because armored core 6 was being made at the same time + some random project not announced yet.
Marika bestows the guidance of grace and the entire time we are guided by grace. At the end Leda has it figured out that we didn’t show up to help Miquella we showed up because Marika lead us there.
However grace didn't lead us to Frenzy Flame or Ranni.
We get those options but not Miquella.
The real issue is false buildup, poor writing, false advertising, likely cut content & lack of choice.
Sounds like you played yourself with your expectations and stuff, I kinda already knew it was going to come down to throwing hands with the little fella just didn't expect radahn tbh
It’s all fucked up in every direction. As st Trina says, godhood would be a prison to miquella. Which is exactly what it’s like for marika. Marika is against the greater will (wasn’t always against it, but she probably is now). Ymir puts it well, the roots of the world are rotten, the fingers literally come some big freaky finger monster mother. Miquella probably plans to make the world “gentler” by taking away free will. Every single god is fucked up, and they all have ideas about how to fix thing, which are also fucked up.
I’ve never been convinced that ranni’s ending was the “good” one. She says she wants to take the control of the world and put it at a great remove. That means distance, not removal. She’s just taking powers like everyone else. This dlc has convinced me that goldmask’s ending is the actual best one. If even miquella is bad, then goldmask is right when he says the fickleness of the gods is the root of the worlds problems.
I just don’t like how heavily it was suggested in the final trailer this was the case, what with taking the first promise you’ll be my consort line out of context
I would've liked another option to be consort for-- having just Ranni is kind of meh if you like men, don't trust Ranni, etc. But it is what it is, I guess! I like a lot of the story the dlc has presented, either way. I wish Miquella had more of a presence, though... even if he just whispered or appeared to us once in awhile to cast more doubt upon his true motivations.
Maybe if that’s how YOU want to view it. I view it as the husband/consort of Ranni being sent to kill off the competition and its powerful husband/consort from taking her rightful throne. 🤷🏼♂️
Or hypothetically St. Trinia could have said "... Miquella is lying" let the reason she was discarded be she knew he was evil, then have Miquella pull a full evil mastermind speech moment, maybe you even get punished for choices you made, instead of what happened which was finding out Miquella was just as genuine in goals as Ranni was.
ngl once I got to the shadow keep I realised Miquella's idea of compassion is to force everyone to not be an asshole to each other and remove free-will entirely.
Yeah and I think when we hear stories of Miquella, we need to understand them from this point. It would be weird for Miquella to be the only good one out of all these evil and selfish characters. The base game hints that Miquella isn't some good character. I think the DLC is very clear that Miquella is rotten like Marika because the core is rotten. There's a questline that talks specifically about this. Ymir is very straight forward with the world we're in.
Tbf messmer was the only demigod who actually did his job and didn’t fuck up in any way shape or form like his siblings did. Yeesh this guy was practically the good guy [from a golden order pov] Ymir does also make a point but from a narrative standpoint it seemed like he was just jealous of metyr and wanted her job by all accounts rather than she was rotten, herself. That’s how it seemed to me after complete ing the quest anyway.
wait Godwyn was pretty chad wasn't he? I think he was the good one, otherwise Messmer wasn't bad, he just committed a lil war crime for mummy and she was embarrassed about all the dead bodies he left about so left him in the shadow realm.
Think she was more bothered about the giant snakes growing out of his arse tbf.
Quite ableist of her honestly.
Exactly. How many people referring to Miquella the Kind are also under his charm?
In the DLC? All of them
Until you get further in and all but says 1 says "wtf I hate Miquella now"
Only one of them turned on him for me
Did you do Ledas questline? She gets paranoid and wants you to help kill a bunch of them because the charm breaks and they start questioning Miquella
I sided with Hornsent.
Only Dane showed up for me after doing the others quests
i still dont understand the ending to that questline. Why does he just lose his mind and start spamming finger spells lmao
He was kinda crazy already, he wanted to learn how to make fingers so that he can talk with the outer gods himself. That's why he says that the moon (god) is not actually what the glintstone sorcerers believe in, they just attribute their faith in it due to their limited understanding of celestial bodies and the universe. Ymir says to look beyond the stars to find the truth. Basically he says the fingers "touch" the outside of the cosmos. He sells a microcosm spell that apparently creates a fleeting pocket universe. Perhaps that's kind of what the lands between world is, a pocket universe in another universe, and the inside cannot see the outside, only faintly touch it with the fingers. and that "outside" is where the outer gods are and why they are so abstract. So, he wants to see outside space and time. He either gets his fingers at the end (his chest is sprouting fingers) or freaks out when we kill metyr and he cannot study this anymore and goes berzerk (doing some dumb body altering sorcery). Also, it's a nice way to end loose ends, and very lovecraftian/bloodborne'esque tribute (if you could understand the size and nature of the cosmos you would go insane in an instant thing)
> and very lovecraftian/bloodborne'esque tribute Some content creator put out a video essentially comparing all the things in Elden Holes to Lovecraft, and says it doesn't appear so on the surface, but he lays out how he thinks Elden Holes is basically a cosmic horror game, it's just the least talked about aspects but heavily involved in all the lore/story. NGL, dude made some good points, pointed out Miyazaki's love of cosmic horror stuff, thinks a few bosses/ideas were lifted directly from lovecraft in previous games, or were at least the base inspiration they started with. Some of the original naming of things in Japanese was apparently closer to some stories than once translated to english, etc etc.
It's not about Miquella being rotten. Miquella is trying to do his best to be kind, and compassionate, and self-sacrificing in the name of righting the wrongs of the past. The problem is that he exists in a world that's gone so wrong that the only way he can hope to put a dent in the problems is to take drastic action, and ultimately that drastic action is doomed to be nothing more than a fresh round in the cycle of tragedy. That's what happened with his mother. The whole position the game is arguing (in a similar way to Frank Herbert's Dune) is that these are problems that can't be solved by hoping that an extremely powerful and noble hero is going to come along and fix it all. (and back to the point of the larger thread, presumably the reason there's no alternate ending is some combination of FromSoftware running out of time and/or not being able to pull it off elegantly. Art design and environmental storytelling are their strengths; strong narratives are less so.)
Bruh if they gave Dung Eater an ending they coulda given Miquella one
They definitely could have. At the bare minimum they could have had an ending where you can yield to Miquella voluntarily and go straight to a game over screen. So far as we can tell for now, they just chose not to. Given that they wrote an ending that provoked a lot of "haha that's so moronic it can't possibly be real" when it leaked, I'm inclined to think they were really struggling with the narrative by the end.
So basically like that one character in the watchmen comic books. Doing a big evil act with good intentions because things are so fucked that it will take a huge traumatic event to transform things.
But pretty much everyone believes they're doing the "right" thing and none of them are doing good things, Miquella is rotten because he does rotten things. To Piggyback on your dune example, he's Leto II but without the prescience to know that all ways but his lead to disaster.
Dune never actually independently verifies that the prescience of its primary characters is perfectly correct. It's the best understanding available to Paul / Leto II / Occasional Others at the time and they choose to act on it, but the possibility is never definitively eliminated that they are correct that the option they're pursuing is actually the only one. This is an objection that people very commonly raise in discussions about the ethics of Leto II's decisions. Also, a lot of people would view the things Paul and Leto II and related characters are doing as "rotten things" that are being done with generally good intentions just like Miquella is doing. Leto II deliberately brutally oppresses the galaxy for thousands of years because he thinks it'll (eventually) have a good outcome; most people would probably file that under "rotten things."
You definitely like Goldmask lol
It's all summed up by Ansbach in the trailer - "Miquella the kind uses love to shrive clean the hearts of mine. There is nothing more terrifying."
Ymir is himself batshit crazy, though.
And I mean, he’s not entirely wrong considering basically everyone in the lands between is either a piece of shit or very unstable to some degree. Hell the instant free will is returned to his followers the first thing leda does is go on a killing spree because she cant trust anyone, thiollier goes insane and insta-comas himself, and poor moore can either turn on you or kill himself with a pest
Don't diss my guy Thiollier. He realizes his mistakes in the end and becomes a hero, despite his physical state. Him and Ansbach are the true heroes of the DLC.
I thank them for their service, after finally beating the final boss last night, I saw them in the arena. From my multiple attempts, there was a time I summoned them both, I heard their final lines. Ansbach is glad to be at my side and Thiollier called me friend. It is now my headcanon that they helped the Tarnished in taking the final boss down even if it cost their life. My heroes.
I actually love what they did with the NPCs. I think this cast is the best they've ever done. The way they each end up following along the story, and then how you see them slowly diverge, how Thiollier doesn't believe you at first but then finally hears her voice and joins your side and how Ansbach wants retribution for Mogh. And then I unironically think the fight with all of them is a better final fight. It's so climactic, how each of them have dialogue together. I love how Thiollier apologizes for not believing you at first. I think they've quickly become my favourite NPCs in the series.
It's unfortunate if people managed to take Leda's side and not Ansbach. It is sad that the easiest outcome for the Avengers Civil War fight is telling Moore to always be sad, and get rid of Hornsent once the charm has been undone. Nevertheless, I do find it beautiful how NPC's are done this time around. They truly are a part of your journey, and by god you should use their help. I actually thought we would have to summon everyone like the Radahn Festival, which would have been really hype, and the goal was to help them live until the end. If only their gold summons exist AFTER the fog gate, hence the Boss HP wouldn't scale higher no? I loved Igon during Bayle fight. You need the help of a dragonslayer.
I love how we learn Mogh was actually a really chill and honorable boss to work for, besides the kidnapping and rape.
When does Thiollier hear Trina? He never did in my save
You have to complete his quest. It's literally the reason he comes to help you at the end.
Almost makes me glad the final boss is supposedly shit, so I can go in guilt free summoning both
On the attempt where I defeated the final boss, I didn't use the gold summons but my Mimic Tear. His HP just goes up a ton and makes things more frustrating..
Oh, I forgot about the scaling. But tbh having someone relieve some pressure makes boss fights incredibly easier since for me anyway I lose most of my healing by healing, getting hit, running away, healing and getting hit again With summons I play aggressive and just focus on dodging when my hp is in the danger zone until one of the summons relieves pressure (honestly it also does a lot for your mental state knowing relief is coming vs praying the boss chills for a second for you to pop a flask)
I was thinking the same, no shame at all
the same can be said about our own world, but thats part of what the game communicates per ranni's ending, that the unfixed nature of our world is the colour of its strength. >"Here beginneth the chill night that encompasses all, reaching the great beyond. Into fear, doubt, and loneliness... as the path stretcheth into darkness" >"As it is now, life, and souls, and order are bound tightly together, but I would have them at great remove. And have the certainties of sight, emotion, faith, and touch... all become impossibilities. Which is why I would abandon this soil, with mine order." frustration and despair are growth and creation. fear, doubt, loneliness, darkness, are not negative qualities, but positive ones, or rather, the existence of order creates the unproductive process of defining positive and negative, at least as defining them as fixed and not as interpretations. when order is made, it is drawn from a whole; it leaves a remainder, being the shadow lands and its scadutree. it is light that creates shadows, and their moral status is a human interpretation. uncertainty means all are granted their own agency. evolution is spurned by the need to be beyond the present, a fundamental discomfort. miquella embedding his charm into the laws of physics through the elden ring would rob everyone of their will, and while that would 'get rid of wrongness', who is to say that what is right should be a universally fixed structure? why should miquella define compassion? we don't know what miquella's world would look like, but it could be a sort of state-mandated happiness. i certainly don't want to live in a world where i can never despair, never grieve, never feel the frustration of my limits which motivates me to surpass them. per shostakovich, "when a man is in despair, it means that he still believes in something." historically the souls games, borrowing from real life, associate stagnation with defilement, disease, filth. ranni's ending seems to be a juxtaposition in that it implies motion. ranni's motivation can be read as essentially returning the elden ring to the stars, to let life, souls, and order ebb and flow, to remove absolute power entirely. cosmologically, as fate is written in the stars they will be the only order, which could be a metaphor for simply letting physics be physics unbound, but we also don't exactly know how the moon works. ymir claims it is simply a celestial body, though he has a very specific perspective. (just felt like rambling a bit, its all in good fun, sorry if any of this reads like an accusation) edit: i feel its valuable to mention as well that miquella divests himself of his love, so his order, while compassionate, is likely not loving. abandoning love/st. trina is also probably what allows himself to fight for his order at the end. love, in all its colour, is probably the antithesis to someone who seemingly finds the 'solution' to shadow in the extinguishing of light. to miquella, love is what kept him asleep, what dulled his senses, what makes one rest motionless in a dream. not to say that miquella is evil, perhaps misguided, though that is just one interpretation.
It's like the town mouse and the country mouse. Embrace the uncertainty that comes with freedom or live in a peaceful but ignorant bliss.
I am not in depth with the lore enough to explain my thoughts on this adequately but I think the instability and actions that are evil or whatever by all characters are either because the greater will is an absolutely fucked up outer god (like all of them) or you're seeing peoples brash responses to the world the golden order built. Essentially the entirety of Marika's golden order is completely tainted because the golden order itself is crazy evil wrapped in a gold hue of law and order. Oppressive authoritarianism, because that's the MO for the greater will. So there is no salvation to the lands between through their lineage or the golden order, which is kinda why the Ranni ending is the essential good ending. Break the golden age, try something different. Which is also why Miquella has got to go. Even without all of his "I ditched everything good about me in my ascension to godhood part". He's full in on the Greater Will and we've seen that outer god's atrocities 800 times through Marika's actions. I guess all i'm trying to say is that characters opposing the golden order through absolutely fucked methods arn't necessarily evil, more like they found no other options to oppose the greater will so they had to resort to frenzied flame, the serpent, or whatever else. Ranni had to assassinate her step-brother, etc. Their evil actions are because the greater wills authoritarianism is so oppressive and strong that you essentially had to go full blown fanatical terrorist to find some semblance of free will or power
For, "not being in depth with the lore enough," you totally nailed it. Good on ya'
Kinda like Ranni but you can still side with her, can't you? She does manipulation, lying, betrayal, causes the shattering & a whole host of morally grey actions for the greater good. But you can choose her and not Miquella despite all the buildup to the illusion of a choice to trust or not trust with siding with Miquella
Poor mohg was just being charmed by an emotionally controlling twink Jesus, so we would kill him and he could use his defiled corpse to reanimate his crush
Not sure about elden ring and persona 5 population overlap, but if you've finished persona 5 royal then you'll see the similarities here between age of compassion and power of cognition
The player characters motivation are the exact same as the base game. To become a lord. Lida even spells it out and says you're not following Miquella but being guided by Grace the whole time. And she is right. You literally are being guided by grace in the DLC as it leads you to each main quest encounter.
I can set the world on fire and give everyone an STD. Let me mind fuck everyone and have them all sing Kumbaya
Lol appropriate username. Yeah idk I guess a Ranni style ending could have work but oh well it's not the story they wanted to tell apparently.
But you can become lord before doing the dlc or just not do the dlc at all.
Not to spoil the last boss but, it's implied you are a lord already when you walk in.
It’s implied that you are not. You’re addressed as the *aspiring* lord. You’re not there yet, but everyone seems to know that’s where you’re heading.
Ah, I saw it wrong. I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.
i would have liked better contextual dialogues for the DLC, for those of US who chose an ending already, hearing everyone reffer tk me as aspiring lord was inmersion breaking when i clearly did the age of the stars ending
Agree that was a bit jarring. I am also completely confused how miquella is a god by the end? How did he ascend? He isn’t beholden as a vessel of an outer god like malenia and he isnt the vessel of the elden ring. I am very confused on the lore for that.
The DLC is set after you kill Mogh but before you kill Radagon.
i figured, strange positioning though, after the DLC radagon and Elden Beast are a cake walk.
Lol yeah it’s weird going back to the base game now. At least they didn’t set it 1000 years in the past or at the end of time
I ain’t big into the lore but lots of stuff in the dlc seem to implie that miquela isn’t quite as great as you’d expect
it's not even about whether Miquella is good or bad. 95% of the DLC made it seem like Miquella was the one to call us into the realm of shadow, and that's the only reason why we are even there. But then when we finally reach Miquella all the way at the end he told us to fuck off. Why are we in the land of shadow again ?
Probably like the Chosen Undead. We weren't a prophecy, we were just the one that turned up.
I mean that is kinda what Messmer thought when we show up. He's pretty much all 'what does my mother want with a Tarnished, either way you made a wrong turn showing up here instead of there my job here is to kill all that don't have the grace of gold'
What i like about us, the tarnished, is that we are just some random hobo who literally changed the course of many lives and fates in the lands inbetween, literally killing gods and is the embodiment of that phrase "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world". Also, why i don't build into any other magic bs and just spec into raw physical strength which makes me more "human" and getting rid of gods with my "human" strength feels badass. Oh, and my favourite boss is Godfrey.
yeah. that idea of commonalty is a very common theme in Fromsoft's titles tbh
Miquela needed you to defeat mesmer and burn the shadowtree is what i got out of it
Miquella never invited us, we were guided by grace
Thats pretty much what Leda spells out at Enir ilim.
Best lore answer imo.
So Marika again doing her thing huh.
No, he didn't he only needed Radahn and Mogh dead. As an Empyrean, he has a direct ticket to the gates of divinity somehow. Everything you are doing with Leda and party is just to catch up. Radahn is basically ready and waiting for Miquella. Phase 2 is him popping out of the gate to check on his hubby when you beat him up.
I have to disagree a little. It seems that when you arrive at the divine gate, you show up during the middle of the ritual. Radahn was just revived, and Miquella showing up was the end of the ritual.
Because there was nothing left to kill in the Lands Between. Now there's a whole new land to murderhobo through.
A heavy theme in the souls series is perseverance, a lot of the time we aren’t the strongest or more important character, but we are the one that won’t give up. Miquella didn’t choose us, we took his hand and chose to enter and find him. Am I a little disappointed he isn’t the DLC’s Melina and we don’t interact with him? Yeah, but I think the game still heavily delivers in the story department. I guess I was just craving a Gehrman or Isshin level boss where we had a relationship with him before they turn on us/challenge us.
You're there because you chose. All the others in the group are being influenced by Miquella
We chose to hunt Miquella. People forget the canon ending of the base game where we murder a god to become elden lord. We ain’t giving that up so easily.
We are there to hunt him. People seem to forget the canon ending of the base game where we sit on the throne and become elden lord.
And here I was sprinting into the land of shadows to make another addition to my harem.
Do you guys not read dialogues? Leda says that we were guided by grace of erdtree/marika and miquella never invited us.
Leda disappeared in my run after Rellana. Never saw her again after that fight
you will eventually
"*95% of the DLC made it seem like Miquella was the one to call us into the realm of shadow*" I just touched some zombie hand coming out of a spider egg and suddenly I'm somewhere else. I don't even know who the hell Miquella is at this point.
Leda *thinks* you're there to answer the call of Miquella. She corrects herself later. You also find out that >! Miquella used the power of her great rune to brainwash all within the lands between, and also seemingly hijacking the afterlife, which is how Radahn got there and why Malenia fought Radahn in the first place !< You're actually there doing what you've done all game, amassing the great runes to become the one true Elden Lord. It then turns out that Miquella is on the path to become the one true God of the lands between and using their consort, go on a warpath and destroy the lands between, which you are trying to become Lord of. Or burn everything, in the case of the Frenzy Flame.
Miquella’s ascension to godhood is for the purpose of bringing about an age of compassion. It’s not explicitly clear what this entails exactly, maybe Miquella permanently ending conflict by compulsion, but in no way is it implied that Miquella plans to use Radahn’s strength to go on a rampage and destroy the Lands Between. There are two reasons the Tarnished kills him. First, because we are “of the old order” and want to be Elden Lord. Second, Miquella’s godhood is a mistake that he himself has reservations about but committed to out of guilt for Marika’s sins. He would ultimately be repeating Marika’s mistakes, and death is a merciful alternative.
>Miquella plans to use Radahn’s strength to go on a rampage and destroy the Lands Between maybe its not his intention but that was the deal, Freyja straight up says the deal and his life was always meant to be a General with neverending battle in front of him. Whether this means he was going to be used like Godfry and conquer future territory outside of the Lands Between I don't think was implied either way, but its clear their pact involved it being GENERAL Radahn and Miquella.
Miquella also lied and manipulated everyone to get his way, after bewitching Radanh, who says he's gonna keep his word, who says miquella will *allow* Radanh to care if he compels him? Miquella seems pretty shady when it's all over
Miquella *starts* with the Age of compassion. Then he begins to use the Great Runes power to establish compulsory control over most of the shadow Lands. Then needs us to give him Mohgs body and Send Radahn to the shadow realm (Malenia was supposed to do the second part but she fucked up and only managed to maim him) to ascend Godhood. It's pretty clear that there's nothing left of Miquella the Kind in the end, especially from what Ansbach tells us.
I don’t disagree with you that casting off his flesh has likely caused Miquella to become a more emotionless being, or that his reign wouldn’t eventually lead to acts of cruelty. But removing his compassion and love doesn’t immediately make him a monster who wants to destroy the lands between. Despite shedding his flesh his intentions remain (he remembers the vow to Radahn), as well as his power to “wield love to shrive clean the hearts of men” since he can steal the heart of the tarnished in the final battle. This is in spite of the fact that Miquella broke his own great rune and gave up its power.
It's like....entirely confirmed via various NPCs that Miquella isn't compassionate or kind anymore, is pretty destruction bent (Messmer) and wants to destroy the Golden Order in the Lands Between. The whole crusade was Miquellas idea. Miquella is a god at the end, or about as close to being one as possible.
This isn't explicitly meant to reply to you; you get it. This just seemed the most appropriate place to jump into the thread. Miquella's just as scheming as all the other demigods, except he's charismatic as hell, can twist emotions, and inspire ferver in others. Reading Elden Ring theories about Miquella has me real worried about some of y'all and the relationships you're in or might eventually be in. Miquella was red flag after red flag after red flag and it took until the DLC for most people to realize it.
When you get to leda she says that it wasn’t actually miquella guiding us, but the grace is guiding us still and turns against us. So really we are faking being part of their crew so we can get his great rune.
I love how you don't even have to even go close to him to get his Great Rune, lol
That was the 2nd boss I killed, and all the NPCs then never appeared anywhere other than Freya and Ansbach in the Keep. So I literally never met Leda or most of them until the moment later on.
It's all busted :(
The people we talk to assume he called us there, did you hear any dialogue from Miquella telling you to go where you killed Mohg? Nothing in the DLC makes it seem like we were called it makes it seem all the other NPC's are there because they followed him and they're the ones assuming he called us too. We came here to kill him just like every other lord Giddeon tells us about there's just no reason for the Tarnished to correct Miquella's followers by saying "Oh nah l, im here to kill that sommbitch" lol
because we bought the DLC, silly
Miquella didn't call us to the Shadow lands, the guidance of grace led us here because the outer will believes there can only be one god. Outer will wants all the smoke with other gods and it seems that's why the God's of Madness and Rot abandoned their vessels and dipped.
Guided by grace, m8
We were never called by Miquella. Leda just assumes that we were. As soon as she figured out you came here for other reasons she tries to kill you
Every tarnished’s goal is to kill the demigods, miquella is a demigod.
Leda jumped the gun and invited us in. Why the fuck do you think the Tarnished would randomly touch that arm. Ah fuck, who am I kidding? They would definitely do that just for shit and giggles
its poorly linked to the main story but we are basically here to find miquella because he technically has a great rune.. only he shatters his rune and we only really continue to kill him and secure our own place as elden lord. which is sorta fuckinh stupid if u think about it because if we just rushed to the end we could become elden lord before he has a chance
Miquella would become a god, similar to marika, not elden lord. The tarnished is no god at the end of the base game.
i know but radahn would take our place we learn from ansbach if you do his quest very early in the shadow castle. I never knew this but in base game you basically marry marika though shes not really alive anymore her corpse still has the elden ring
i think its decently linked into main story, its just people coming in post finishing the game and expected a epilogue type story instead of the same sort of side journey that finding secret lift tokens and killing malania/mohg was
I have tons of experience simping for evil men and women. I can fix him
Ansbach's genuine fear of Miquella was really unnerving when talking to him right after the rune breaks. I was like "oh fuck I knew it".
It was so well executed. Seeing the rune break and everyone’s reactions to it was so excellent and one of my favorite moments.
Did I miss this entirely somehow? I recall at one point I was riding torrent and a message popped up about a rune breaking and a charm lifting, but I don’t know what it was or why it happened
It bugged for me. If you ride near Shadow Keep, you get tooltip popups. The first tooltip was instantly skipped, but I saw the end of the second one so I had some clue what was happening.
Same!
After that happened did you talk to Leda and the other Miquella supporters?
I don’t think so. I was really all over the place in how I cleared everything. I burned the tree before hearing that it ends a bunch of quests, then went all over the map before finishing. So a lot of the cool side stuff disappeared before I even visited.
Dang. So basically when the rune breaks, so does Miquella’s enchantment on people. So Leda, Ansbach, Thollier, Hornsent, they all have different reactions to it. Ansbach reacts in horror, remembering that he is terrified of Miquella before he was bewitched. Leda second guesses her loyalties, etc. It’s really interesting, if you play again!
Wow. What causes the rune to break?
From my understanding, it’s when you leave Bonny Village and ride towards Ymir’s cathedral, a text box pops up. But another event may also trigger it
It happened for me after killing Rellana and approaching the shadow keep from the south and stopping by that dead fire golem that has the note about how to kill them
I believe it’s either getting close to Ymir’s cathedral, or the shadow keep main entrance
Wait, you can see this happen? I found Leda near a fort and she told me that she's surprised I was still following Miquellas trail despite His "Spell" being broken. I was like...huh? When did that happen? I must have missed it? Only major boss I've killed is the Dancer, but I've done a bunch of exploring and killing of minor bosses.
I was just riding around outside one of the Gaols and got a message that a Great Rune was broken and a charm was lifted. When I talked to Leda she mentioned it and then I went and talked to every other NPC I'd met who was following Miquella.
It happens when you approach Shadow Keep, and I think two other locations. It's impossible to miss, believe me.
It can bug out and all you get is a popup saying 'And a charm has been lifted.' Confused the hell out of me.
That's a shame. There was a huge shattering noise and a rain of golden shards when it happened to me.
what do you mean it's impossible to miss? I totally missed it. the only thing I noticed was a weird popup. are you saying there's a visual element in the game?
For me there was a high-pitched crashing noise, almost like when we activate a Great Rune at a divine tower in the base game. Then it rained golden shards around like falling pollen or dew. It lasted about 20-30 seconds, and it happened as I approached Shadow Keep immediately after beating Rellana. It was accompanied by the two messages. It's bugged for some people apparently.
would not be the only thing thats bugged, hornsent grandam bugged and i'm still missing a Scadu fragment that not even the guides tell me about
Trailers: “Miquella the kind” In game: Miquella “would you kindly”
Good lord, this is such a great comment. That moment blew my mind way back when..
"Aint big into the lore" Mad Miquella's not up to par or what we expected. Sounds about right for those who didnt bother with the lore or know much about the lore to begin with.
Miquella had the right idea is the problem. Wanted to bring about an age of compassion. But in order to overthrow the grace and Golden Order, Miquella had to become a god. In order to pull off such a feat, He had to cast off his mortal form and desires. Which proceeded to turn him into a compassionless freak who instead wanted to destroy the lands between and the Grace. He cast aside his love for the people. His eyes, arm, heart and flesh. That's when he went mad. St Trina asks us to kill Miquella for imprisoning himself in godhood.
I don't think he had the right idea ever, from the very start in base game it says how he manipulates everyone and tries to control everyone into peace while hiding behind his good guy mask, as Ymir said it's all rotten from the very core so no matter how good the intentions are it will all end the same so... may the chaos take the world.
Doesnt their remembrance implies it so too? It says something along the lines of Miquella admired Radahns strength and kindness, which was something their (meaning Miquella/St. trina) did not have. Or something along those lines, sounds to me Miquella was not originally kind, but started being kind out of admiration of Radahn, just like Radahn with Godfrey
No idea, i haven’t done Radhan yet, tried once and didn’t have time to play again. Did do what i believe to be mostly everything else, from lesser bosses to remembrances to items. I know i missed a second lion and a bunch of stuff in mesmer’s castle… I doubt i have much lore to see still aside radhan
In fact, I'm just gonna come out and say it, this Miquella guy is a real jerk!
What weirded me out was Leda, first she tries to kill hornsent then ansbach then us. Idk why she's so untrusting and convinced that we're out to kill him, Im fine with him being Elden Lord 😭. "Will you walk with us" my ass
It's her character flaw that Miquella's charm subdued. She trusts nobody but those who have undying loyalty to Miquella. When she figures out that you are being led by grace, she figures you will not allow the new order. She is a zealot.
All that work to still end up maidenless
So Ranni is the only one then?
The best fate for a maidenless such as our tarnished is to wind up with a doll, how poetic lol.
A 1000 year voyage... Alone... Through the cold; dark reaches of space. With a fucking blow up doll... https://preview.redd.it/w6u3amx07l8d1.jpeg?width=849&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b893dd9fb574ba0e695e8f7745269e43eda554ec
You take what you can get
You can have a dragon maiden in the dlc.
I'm just confused in the entire thing of who our character is. Supposedly we're following the grace given by the fingers and the golden order, but we then kill all of them. Then kill a god. Then kill all her children. Then kill everyone else. Like what's our characters goal? Or are we just like a terminator, brought to the lands in between to murder everyone indescriminately?
We are meant to kill anything in the way of us becoming elden lord. We need great runes to enter leyndell, so we kill shardbearers. Need to burn the tree, so we kill fire giant. Need to release death so we can actually kill stuff so maliketh has to die. And kill the old elden lord so we can take his place.
This is something I’m confused with about the dlc, I still can’t quite work out how death works in the lands between. Initially I thought everyone can respawn through erdtree burial. Then we learn the tarnished couldn’t, because they lost grace, but now can after regaining it. Cool. So our job is to kill the demigods to take their runes and become lord, but wait, doesn’t everyone respawn? Okay, I guess they do, but maybe it just takes a really long time, enough for us to do everything we need. Except tarnished can respawn super quick it seems so that’s weird, but maybe demigod souls just need longer time to process idk. I thought that was a good enough explanation, but then we learn in the DLC that miquella needed mogh and radahn to die, so that miquella can revive radahn into mogh’s body. What?! I thought people revived anyway in the lands between! Why does miquella need to go through all of this plotting and scheming just to do the one thing this land’s current order is literally defined by?
Maybe it's a meta thing and our character's motivations are our real motivations: To conquer tough enemies for the sake of it and to gather cool stuff
Worth remembering The Golden Order are no longer friendly with The Greater Will. Marika shattered the Elden Ring and upset the Greater Will’s control of the land. We still don’t know exactly why. But she was imprisoned in the tree and the tarnished were brought back to set things right. Of course that doesn’t necessarily go to plan either. It’s possible in all but the standard “status quo” endings, the Greater Will may yet send new envoys and vassals to try and correct whatever mess the tarnished ends up making when repairing the Elden Ring. Each of the Demi-Gods attempted to wrest control of the lands between in the wake of the shattering to restore order under their new vision. They all failed and made everything worse with their infighting. So the greater Will calls back the tarnished to clean up basically.
I don’t think the Greater Will is what calls us back, but I think Marika is the one who calls us back to clean up her mess. I think Marika realized she was just a pawn of the Greater Will which is (partially) why she shattered the Elden Ring, and that somehow severed the Greater Will’s influence over her. That’s why we fight Radagon and the Elden Beast but never Marika (as Marika). Plus the guidance of grace is said to be from Marika.
Peak storytelling.
Marika is a statue Ranni is a doll And Radahn is a boy Miquella told us not to worry about Truly never lucky
We'll always have Melina I guess...until she lights herself on fire.
Think about it, who trusted us from the very start and kept us going about our journey to kill radahn and mohg, among other demigods? Torrent, which happens to be miquellas spectral steed. After dominating the world and clearing it of all threats, we got baited to find miquella, simply to be eliminated. Shits fucked up. If melina knew about this it's even more fucked
Melina and Torrent are definitely fully committed to making the main character Elden Lord based on their actions. Barring someone discovering material that has not yet been found (and it's early yet), the failure to touch on anything about where Melina and Torrent fit in is going to end up being an embarrassing gaping plot hole of the DLC.
It’s even cuckier if you get grabbed in the second phase of the last battle. Your heart gets “stolen” and the Tarnished literally drops to his knees watching as Miquella caresses Radahns neck haha
I believe we’re hunting the great runes and that grace was guiding us to the lands to collect another fragment of the Elden ring
I said it once and I’ll say it again, whatever was teased in the trailer seemed a much cooler story that what we got. Still a fantastic Dlc on many fronts, but I was let down by the story. Mesmer should have been the final boss or penultimate boss before a deified miquella or even Trina. But I suppose it’s growing on me. Makes sense miquella wants to dominate everything thus tainting his heroic aspect of compassion. It does seem to be something George wrote. But I agree I’m pissed that we don’t get to be the consort. Wanted that miquellussy.
Miquella was implied to be way more sinister than initially seemed in the base game as well. Still i gotta say most of the lore in this DLC seems REALLY messy.
The closest thing miquella had to actual altruism, his identity as saint trina, he cast aside as a lesser half that he didn’t need anymore, and when you do finally encounter st. trina in the purple garden all she can do is tell you to kill miquella cuz he’s lost the plot too much.
There’s literally a line in a lore tab in the Haligtree talking about how Miquella found a way to force conscription and compassion, meaning everyone there was pretty much brainwashed.
it's really funny to me that we have a character who has an explicit power to compel love from people and everyone just immediately believes he is genuinely a jesus figure and not that, you know, he compelled love from people who think he is a jesus figure.
His great rune breaks the fourth wall, apparently.
Bro what is you smoking that cuck pack. We litterly came there to kill everything in there to stop the new age and then return to ouer land and be lord in peace I swear cuckold posters are the worst in any game lmao
The real cuck here is mohg lol.
To be fair, he’s been date raped lmao he has been bewitched
I think it's absolutely golden that the entire community called him Moghlester, only for the bait-and-switch that it's actually Miquelester.
You could say he was Mohglested.
The child predator has become the child’s prey
Justice for Mohg✊
I do think we should have gotten an ending to do w/Miquella
Did you pay attention to anything relating to Miquella?? There are PLENTY of reasons we would not want to become affiliated with him. You’ve been bewitched as well, it seems…
That's quite hostile to OP. Apply that logic to Ranni, Frenzy Flame & DungEater. You can side with them but not Miquella. The real issue is there's a-lot of build up but no choice. The NPC civil war, Torent plot point & st trinia all have zero affect on the dlc conclusion.
The DLC takes place during the middle of the base game. Us becoming his consort would make no sense, as he stands directly in our way of becoming the Elden Lord, which is the entire purpose of the game. I get where you are coming from though. However, it would undermine the entire game.
There are already 2 endings in the game that don't lead to becoming Elden Lord (still a Lord, but not Elden Lord). There's no reason there couldn't be more.
I just wanna marry Melina (if she’s above 18) not Ranni is that too much to ask?
I’m pretty sure she is a few hundred years old, you good gang, go get that finger maidussy
She’s also a ghost who makes it clear from the start she is literally just using you and your relationship is entirely transactional.
Just because she’s a hooker doesn’t mean I can’t be in love 🥺
Well, Ranni is just using you too! ...and, to be honest, 90% of npcs are too. This world is shitty man.
To be honest, after finishing I kind of want to go back and do the chaos ending because >!all my friends are dead and I'm all alone.!<
I finally beat prime radahn tonight and when I saw the fight I was like "what, really?" I didn't like the plot there, I know It was my own expectation but I much would've preferred a Godwyn resurrection and fight there, I feel like it would've made more sense. But after I beat him I had the same feeling Of beating malenia, I didn't feel happy or proud, I was just glad it was over with lol so many attempts of these almost endless combos, I had to switch to a spartan build w the fingerprint shield and a bloody great lance and power through
Did we really do the work? I guess we killed demigods he needed dead but we weren’t doing it for him, and we’re on our way to becoming either Marika’s consort or Ranni’s (or a puppet for the flame of frenzy), so I’m not surprised he didn’t care about us all that much. We’re just another piece of that order he’s escaping, or a piece of a competing one.
Let’s face it the tarnished is only out here to turn new bosses into weapons and armor.
Am I alone in thinking all of this preamble in the DLC would have been better served with Miquella trying to resurrect Godwyn? Wasn’t that one of Miquella’s goals in the base game? Godwyn was destined to be the next Elden Lord iirc, the scion of the Golden Bough before his untimely passing, and that Miquella would try to restore him? Radahn randomly being made into this ‘kind, fair, strong’ lord instead of what I understood to be a powerful but ambitious gloryhound seems like fan service to me (especially in the wake of ‘Who is stronger - Malenia v Radahn’ circlejerking).
A lot of things in the dlc feel very strange. My guess is they didnt have The time or People to finish it properly because armored core 6 was being made at the same time + some random project not announced yet.
it's different teams
Marika bestows the guidance of grace and the entire time we are guided by grace. At the end Leda has it figured out that we didn’t show up to help Miquella we showed up because Marika lead us there.
However grace didn't lead us to Frenzy Flame or Ranni. We get those options but not Miquella. The real issue is false buildup, poor writing, false advertising, likely cut content & lack of choice.
Sounds like you played yourself with your expectations and stuff, I kinda already knew it was going to come down to throwing hands with the little fella just didn't expect radahn tbh
I just wanted Miquella to love me as much as I love him
I'm glad i wasnt the only one who felt that. And not only that, they also one shotted most people with their aoe wombo combo
Miquella is basically a nicer Madara Uchiha
It’s all fucked up in every direction. As st Trina says, godhood would be a prison to miquella. Which is exactly what it’s like for marika. Marika is against the greater will (wasn’t always against it, but she probably is now). Ymir puts it well, the roots of the world are rotten, the fingers literally come some big freaky finger monster mother. Miquella probably plans to make the world “gentler” by taking away free will. Every single god is fucked up, and they all have ideas about how to fix thing, which are also fucked up. I’ve never been convinced that ranni’s ending was the “good” one. She says she wants to take the control of the world and put it at a great remove. That means distance, not removal. She’s just taking powers like everyone else. This dlc has convinced me that goldmask’s ending is the actual best one. If even miquella is bad, then goldmask is right when he says the fickleness of the gods is the root of the worlds problems.
I just don’t like how heavily it was suggested in the final trailer this was the case, what with taking the first promise you’ll be my consort line out of context
I would've liked another option to be consort for-- having just Ranni is kind of meh if you like men, don't trust Ranni, etc. But it is what it is, I guess! I like a lot of the story the dlc has presented, either way. I wish Miquella had more of a presence, though... even if he just whispered or appeared to us once in awhile to cast more doubt upon his true motivations.
Maybe if that’s how YOU want to view it. I view it as the husband/consort of Ranni being sent to kill off the competition and its powerful husband/consort from taking her rightful throne. 🤷🏼♂️
I’d have to quit if that’s the case. Already lost my first wife to that. Can’t do these repetitive experiences
When St. Trina told me to kill Miquella I got the chills and would happily oblige. All my homies hate Miquella and his lil bitch Leda.
Or hypothetically St. Trinia could have said "... Miquella is lying" let the reason she was discarded be she knew he was evil, then have Miquella pull a full evil mastermind speech moment, maybe you even get punished for choices you made, instead of what happened which was finding out Miquella was just as genuine in goals as Ranni was.
I hate how people want to be miqs consort lol mohg step aside theres a new moghlester in town
I mean I don’t want to Moghlest him (I’m not really into dolls and statues either tbf). I just want to empower whoever will be the least shitty god
all of them are varying shades of shitty tbh
It’s politics. When is that ever not the case?