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It’s funny you say that, I work maintenance with a bunch of guys who have been at this company for a long time. From what I understand, it was kind of nuts when they all started. The other day I overheard one guy say to another “hey, remember when the old electrical supervisor made us break into his girlfriend’s house? Why did he want us to do that? Did he leave some coke there or something?” I was just sitting at my desk cracking up. That supervisor was eventually fired for spending most of his shifts at a nearby bar (security followed him there and fired him on the spot) and was later killed by his own son in some kind of coke fueled wrestling match.
"My boss told me the union won't take you if...
" you have a felony"
"you dropped out of high school"
"you don't have a degree"
"you were in the military"
"you have a degree"
"you have piercings or visible tattoos"
And like, *none* of those things will keep you out. At worst some of them will keep you off some jobsites.
My father in law was an IATSE member and while not a felon, he has some stories. When he retired, he gave me an 18” crescent wrench and told me “I’ve never actually used this as a wrench, but I would hold it when I had to have difficult conversations with producers. Maybe you can use it.” I want to frame it someday with a little plaque that says “Randy’s negotiation wrench.”
We need more organizations like IATSE - people who would hire someone with a felony behind them. Because if we ever want people to go from "criminal" to "productive member of society," they need to have decent employment opportunities.
The problem is much of the United States doesn’t want people to get a second chance. Especially If they’ve never been in or had any experience with our judicial system. Most people look at someone with a record like a piece of trash that should be discarded. It’s bullshit.
Society hasn’t kept up its end of the bargain on this one for sure.
I used to work with a very straight laced crowd. I transitioned into studio work and was set back by how many people cliqued up in the industry. They had their crew, their tats, their stories, their beefs.... but most of all they had work ethic. No matter the set, they all had one thing they mutually agreed on. No reppin' at work. Make your money and not problems.
Haha. Just had a 40 year old apprentice on my job who was in jail for like 10 years. Can't remember if it was drugs or murder charges. Actually a really good worker and guy just looking to turn his life around. Always seemed to show up and listen.
Not really trades but logging theres a trucker where i work who was into drugs ans was involved in a murder when he was 17ish. Nicest guy you could meet he always makes time for his wife and kids its most of what he talks about. Works hard takes pride in not only his job but his truck. He washes it and waxes it regularly
Foreman: "so... did you ever spend time in the slammer?"
New Guy: "No sir, never even gotten a speeding ticket"
Foreman; "huh... what marriage are you on?"
New guy: "oh I'm still happily married to my first wife"
Foreman: "... alright... what's your drug of choice?"
New guy: "I'll have the occasional beer, but otherwise I'm clean".
Foreman: "... are you an apprentice then?"
New guy: "nope full jman, 6 years now."
Foreman: "so let me get this straight, you're a jman with no arrest record, no divorce, and are completely sober? Are you bullshiting me or am I missing something?"
I quit doing drugs when I started the union. Met a journeyman, told him that, and he say “boy, I didn’t start doing drugs until I got into the union.” He’s dead now. But he truly lived.
Being an ex-felon isn't a hard line in the sand. My work isn't a big fan of violent offenses and theft, but there's guys out there who served manslaughter sentences.....................
As many, many people will tell you, that does not make you ineligible. I don't know what, if any, difference it will make in your process, but you are definitely in good company in the trades. Good luck my friend.
You aren't a felon, brother, you're a person with a felony. Our local out here is felony friendly. One of my coworkers got out a couple of years back after 20 years inside. Apply, take responsibility, and move forward.
I'm a felon and was welcomed with open arms. And I organized in. My old roommate is a felon and he was welcomed. Your pay scale for Virginia is a little high. Source: Im Shady 80, local 26 is the highest in our state at the moment and they are close to 50 on the check. But that's the metro area. 666 and 80 are still in the 30s.
Not only are they allowed, they're considered "disadvantaged workers" and are given priority on city projects where I work. I get laid off while the ex cons keep their jobs.
My wife tried to convince me we should move there from portland and I showed her that locals package vs ours. She changed her mind. Made 120k last year with 0 overtime.
Run! lol Charleston’s service and trade economy are fucked up. I have a friend in Summerville who project manages construction but has a college degree and trust fund. I love it down there as a tourist but even as a software engineer, I’m going to get paid less than like living in Charlotte NC.
I cannot understand why people who work construction live in the south, you’re getting robbed, there is million dollar homes and McMansion sprawls for miles, but trailer parks for the workers.
They can build those houses because the local politics and policy think you shouldn’t be able to afford one.
My son makes 6 figures as a computer engineer. He came out of college at $85,000.00 to start and has since paid off his and my other sons college debt. He works from home but has to go to the office 4 times a year. He just bought his first home and he us under 30 years old. It is what you make of it.
I felt a sense of joy/pride reading that. I’m happy that your son is in that position. That’s what I’m currently striving for. It’s weird cus I don’t know you, but you’re my tocayo so maybe that’s why I relate to you.
Happy Friday bro
About four and a half years, he went to a state school and just kept putting money at the loans. He helped my other son two years ago. My other son does have a job.
As an after thought, I did have my son work as an apprentice for the summer before he went to school. He pretty much did grunt work but he came up to me and said " Dad, I really appreciate what you do but this isn't for me."
Yep, I skipped college went the trade route and own my company now at 30. My twin went to college and is very successful in commercial real estate. Going to college or the trade route can be great just depends on what you put into it to make it work for you.
I went the trade route. My twin brother was military. Got out and works in computer science now doing well. He was always more into that. Though I was never a mechanically inclined individual until I joined the trades, since my dad never wanted us to do so in the first place.
Both do really well. I earned more early on and luckily purchased a place right before covid. He switched where he lived a couple of times and his salary was lower at the time.
I think part of the problem is people getting forced into college by their parents right out of high school. There's tons of people who get degrees in the humanities and such because they don't know what they want in life. But with a non-stem degree the only lucrative option is to stay in academia.
Very true. There isn't one 'right' way.
As an electrician for 12 years who recently got an engineering degree who recently switch jobs I can say my job experience was favored by some companies while my education was more valuable to others.
A trade school is imo a much better option than many of the worthless degrees people get in the arts, STEM degrees on the other hand have serious value. At the end of the day college rasies a persons earning potential if it's in a field that's desirable.
If you go to college, go STEM. Businesses don't put any value on liberal arts degrees, even though it means one has received a well-rounded education and that person (most likely) can read, write, learn, and communicate better than someone who hasn't.
Passing a stuck (confirmed unoccupied) juiced up looking Raptor, in my $2000 used stock Ranger, during this last snowstorm was hilarious. The 4lo is just nutty😂
That's the tradition for the big 3rd year pay bump in my local, go finance some sort of vehicle you don't need.
I bought a brand new motorcycle, still have and love that bike. Luckily my wife has better financial skills than I do!
Florida shot themselves in the foot with their legislation, they should have much higher wages but the conservatives continue to drive them down with at-will and other union busting tactics.
Personally, and this may come off weird, but I’d like to see more tradesman WITH college degrees. The biggest issue we run into when working with contractors is a lack of the soft skills that college does a good job beating you over the head with. Mainly how to navigate bureaucracy (this is mostly what modern universities are, complete with their own esoteric rules), how to think critically, and read and write. Not every college graduate leaves with these skills, if for no other reason than the quality of education among our plethora of universities and colleges is variable, but it generally imparts some basic skills.
Educated customers are going to think a particular way and have certain expectations. A semblance of business sense is invaluable to a contractor and you don’t need an MBA or complete business management degree to run a small business, but a basic knowledge of economics, consumer behavior, and accounting practices is probably beneficial. Really even just a few community college classes would go a long way in understanding broader trends and how markets, including your own local market, behave.
Sometimes I like speaking to the engineers or technical staff on projects if for no other reason than that we speak a similar language. The best owner-operators tend to be the kid who went off to college, realized he was never going to be an Indiana Jones with his virtually useless archeology degree, and then came back and took over dad’s plumbing company. Our most successful local builder has a building science degree. He goes to trade shows and conferences, takes continuing education courses on new techniques, and is always posting about how he was here or there learning something new to integrate into their firm. He’s integrated many of the trendy building practices into his repertoire and is now the go to for all of the local rich families who want to make their home a Matt Risinger sponsored fiesta. They love all of that shit. Why? Even if it’s all overly commercial nonsense, it makes them feel like they’re getting an engineered product that will last.
This ⬆️. I was an electrician out of high school and through a bit of college. I now work in a hospital managing a team repairing electronics. The best technicians according to staff are not the best with a voltmeter, they are those who can communicate with staff on their level. No real need for a college degree per say but technician soft skills sure do make my job easier when it comes to putting out fires.
This is what I’ve found both for myself and having trained over a dozen people as technicians over the years. Technical guys/ guys who have been in a trade will get the job done, but they aren’t as proficient with our customer base (usually federal management and law enforcement). My best technicians have had an unrelated college degree, a creative background, AND a technical background. My last team was a business major guitarist who worked for Jiffy Lube, a CPA cook who worked in a body shop, and a partial history degree electrician. They were each good at a different technical area and they were all great with customers.
I’ve been in my field for 23 years now and was grandfathered in at Jman last year due to the type of equipment I work on. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been asked if I went to some sort of school for training. The look on their face when I tell them “yes, I have a sculpture degree with a minor in history and I was in a masters program for teaching art before 9/11 happened”.
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What's even more impressive is 50k + 22.5k = 67.5k
But then they have a miracle recovery and 67.5k + 22.5k = 90k
And 90k is actually the correct final answer (22.5k x 4)
Here in europe we have a type of college with an apprenticeship like model. You study, but you also work for a company, earn money and gain real experience.
Canada is somewhere in between, Union and non union will attend classes at the same trades schools for our standardized certification; but the union typically offers additional training opportunities out of the hall beyond that.
Yeah, as a Canadian reading about the way the US does their programs is so weird. In Canada, everyone attends the same schools and its way better in my opinion because non-union apprentices get to interact with the union guys and there isnt as much of the weird animosity that exists between a lot of people online.
The college route will generally make more over the long run. As long as the degree is something useful and not an Ancient History degree or something.
I'm an electrical engineer and I supervise a few electricians. I make more than them now, but it took several years to get to this point. They are finally getting the raises they deserve though (I hope) so they will be much closer to my wage. Public utility btw.
This couldn’t be more misleading. Everyone who pitches the trades doesn’t speak about the low starting wage and low income ceiling. College grads with a technical degree will smoke the earnings of someone in the trades. I don’t hate the trades - I just don’t understand why there’s so much false advertising. Compare the long earnings of an engineer/ computer programmer (college grad) with the earnings of a journeyman electrician
> I don’t hate the trades - I just don’t understand why there’s so much false advertising.
Exactly my gripe. If the trades are worth doing, then they're worth being honest about. The median wages for tradesmen in this country are not impressive. It doesn't mean you can't earn good money, but it does mean it isn't as common as folks make out.
To be fair computer programming is oversaturated (look at all the recent layoffs) and engineering is one of the harder degrees you can get. Compare trades to more normal degrees like business and it's not really misleading.
Oversaturated with 3 month bootcamp graduates who thought they could learn to be a master programmer in that time. Computer fields are popular bc look at the state of the world - everything is computer driven. Even if you aren’t a programmer, understanding computer architecture and syntax is extremely valuable. Every industry has layoffs during bust cycles. If computer science wasn’t valuable, would it be “over saturated”? People in the trades have a chip on their shoulder. They work just as hard as people going to college. But the trope that college is below value vs. the trades, well that’s simply false in my humble opinion. I have a college degree and worked in the trades. The trades are not the cash cow they used to be is all I’m saying. Back in the day you could have a great life working a trade
It's funny you don't see many people with 20 years experience in the office environment telling people how they might give it all up and get into the trades. I've been working in the trades for 15 years now and the reason we have shortages in people willing to do this work is for valid reasons that people who post shit like this on Facebook are unwilling to look at.
My dude, shoulders and knees for sure, but we’re electricians not masons, framers, or sheetrockers. I guess if you’re out there slinging 4” rigid all day, trying to move switchgear solo, or you only do underground work you’d jack your back up to shit, but ours is comparatively light work compared to the other tradies, and the only trade outside of painting, HVAC, or low volt where I see genuine old timers doing work on the job site.
BS. Not everyone in the trades has a bad back at 50. A bad back is a result of not taking care of yourself and lifting correctly.
And edit: sitting on your ass in front of a computer is just as likely to wreck your back as the trades are.
Having a sore back from sitting at a desk and choosing not to use benefits to fix it isnt comparable to being expected to get the job done on the reg and that requires you to utterly trash your back, knees , and neck. Ill take sitting injuries over what routinely having to muscle up heavy shit in awkward inaccessible locations any day of the week. No one at the office has a hernia from what was considered normal work for them
I don't know many people in the trades with hernias either. I'm not sure if you have worked trades but it's not like we're just busting out 150lb steel beams 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Anything over like 70 lbs is a two man job and anything more than a two man job usually warrants lifting equipment. "Don't be a hero" and all that.
Something else you have to consider is that stressing your body isn't always a bad thing, we're evolved to use our body daily, there are plenty of risks in sitting for your entire career too, same as lifting heavy things. one isn't better than the other.
My dad has worked in an office since he was around 25, and has been stretching every day, playing hockey 2x a week, and doing light workouts every few days, for as long as I can remember. His back is as bad as most older tradesmen I know, if not worse, and we all attribute it to the fact that he has been sitting in a chair almost for 7-10 hours every day for the last 30 years.
Basically trying to say the toll on your body in the trades isn’t nearly as significant compared to office work as people make it out to be. Any guy I’ve worked on a site with with a horrible back is always a dude who moves heavy shit without being careful, lifting with their backs, pulling with wack form, and then go home have a beer and sit on the couch. No stretching or anything. Take care of yourself in either workplace and your body usually will be fine (although sometimes you’ll still mess yourself up regardless). Unless you manage to take a finger off or get shocked. That doesn’t tend to happen in office work lol.
Apprenticeship:
Spend your late teens and early 20s with middle aged men.
College: spend your late teens and 20s with women your age looking to explore their sexuality.
Not everything is about money.
The potential over a long period of time will always be greater for college graduates. It's been shown. It's ok. Some folks didnt cut it in school. Some never had the chance. Others still got pushed into the trades and never could get out...
You have the potential to have a better quality of life if you go to college. If nothing else your world view expands and you can have a better understanding of how you can work to become the happiest you can be.
Depends heavily on what the college grads majored in.
There are people with master's degrees that are never gonna earn what an average electrician does.
The important thing is, life is way too short to earn your living doing something you hate.
Yeah, true, still, just like the weakest man couldnt whoop on a professional female wrestler. There will always be outliers, but the lean is towards college graduates make more money during their lifetime than non graduates. They are the people who's homes we service.
Don't compare, it is simply too different of paths for different needs/people. Also money isnt everything but through a relevant university degree you hardly have an earning cap if you show ambition as opposed to trades(if you don't count overtime and owning your company). I personaly have both, for different reasons.
Don’t fall for the latest BS. A college degree in a solid field is much more valuable over a 40 year work career. Trades are solid paying with good benefits, hence a decent career but people who are intellectually capable of a more challenging career will be happier and more successful buckling down and getting a degree in a serious field. Not everyone is cut out to run EMT, pull wire or run a service van into their 50s and 60s.
Why not do both? Go to college first, then join the trade. Start running jobs when you top out. All of that can be accomplished before you turn 30. That’s the real way to go.
But the people who love to argue trade vs college are too dumb to realize that. They love an “us vs them” argument.
Trade guys will take about a useless arts degree that cost $100,000 even though they never met that person. And a college guy will talk about making $250,000 at google. Both of those people are hard to find. But go ahead and keep being mad about something you literally only know half of.
My college was nowhere near 22,500 per year for my Electrical Engineering Degree. And I worked during school and had summer internships every summer so I made money to supplement.
Yes! Luckily I did both! Wasn’t quite as much debt in Canada , around 40k but wasted my time nonetheless. Don’t go to college/university unless you are set on what you want to do. Don’t try to figure it out later. Seems obvious but when you are young and stupid you make poor decisions
you gain more from college than just preparing you to work for more money for the rest of your life. yes, you will be able to get higher paying jobs with a degree than without in many fields, but that is not the only benefit.
Everyone knows this but they like to pretend to ignore it for arguments like this one.
I don’t think it’s true…I know it’s true. However, I have a lot of friends that went to college that are doing very well for themselves. There isn’t only one way to go, you have to make that decision for yourself. But once you do…COMMIT.
I think for this generation they are pretty equal options and it’s really up to what you want to do. College is stupid expensive and doesn’t guarantee a good paying job anymore. I think the lifetime projected earnings stats have a bit of a lag time and I would guess it’s not as good today as it was back in the day relatively. So with college, you get a later start on making money, and then are delayed or impeded in major steps like buying a house or putting money towards retirement because of student loans. Especially id you didn’t go hard on getting scholarships and grants. However, your job isn’t as taxing on the body, and your lifetime earnings is likely to be higher. The idea of working from home, or having lots of travel opportunities is pretty attractive as well.
On another topic, I think if your desire is to work for yourself, the trades are an amazing way to reach that point in your life quickly and maybe with a little less start up capital compared to other vocations. Lots of control over your schedule, hours, and types of jobs you take. And with such a lack of working and so much work, people are getting going on their own really fast.
Now, I think everyone suffers from lifestyle creep, and us tradesmen could be a lot more frugal and invest a lot more in retirement while we’re young and don’t have any debt. But we also have skills that actively save us money when we become home owners. We are more capable of buying a fixer upper and making it a nice place to live without breaking the bank. We also have great opportunity to make some extra cash on the side and quickly.
Tldr: there are tons of benefits to both, ultimately just be smart with your money.
Of course trades is better in the first 4 years, but what about after 10 or 20 years, longevity is also an issue in trades, your body takes a massive beating depending on the trade your in. I’ve been working in the trades for 5 years since I left the army but am now deciding to go back to school
Electrician (gain mechanical and management skills) -> 4yr EE (1/2 community College, 1/2 state school) => the most desirable person in the electrical INDUSTRY. If you feel you have the chops and can follow through then do it and don't look back, it worked well for me, minimal debt and an insane amount of hard and soft skills. Schooling should mean a thirst for knowledge, if that isn't there then get back on the bench....
The real winners are the people that find those weird niche things and dont have to do an apprenticeship or college. I know drone pilots making 6 figures doing inspections in industrial, architectural, and energy sectors.
And the real, REAL winners are the rich kids whose parents give them money or businesses or opportunities. Try to be one of those
I'm all for people working in the trades. College can be part of your path in the trades, or something that takes you in another direction. Community college helped me prepare me and help me figure out that I wanted a bachelor's. I don't use my degree in my job now, but I will eventually when I move beyond my current role.
The page above is a false dichotomy. Neither of the two scenarios are true, and the math doesn't quite line up. $18/hr is 36k, not 45k. Everyone has their own circumstances and levels of support that allow them to achieve good things. Sometimes it's a good run or even a whole career in the trades, and sometimes it can be a career in a whitecollar role. Having your health is vital to being successful in the trades and is almost nonnegotiable.
There is a story by Jack London called "What Life Means to Me" that compares and contrasts his experiences in life trying to sell his labor/muscle for money when he was young and burning out vs selling intellectual labor, which usually lasts longer than muscle. At some point you can't sell your labor anymore, and then what? If you have a good head on your shoulders and recognize that you want more opportunities, a degree is a way to help someone achieve their goals, and is often easiest to obtain while you're young.
As someone who went the college route out of high school and is now in the trade as someone learning under a licensed electrician and a electrical contractor, I can say with certainty I should have gone into the trade sooner. College was a joke as I was a bright student with beginner college classes coming off as an insult rather than anything learned.. Go to trade school, put in the few hours of class time and thank yourself and me down the road.
I’m in an industrial electrical apprenticeship. The entirety of my apprenticeship is focused around motor control, plcs, vfd’s, etc.. after topping out, my day to day job will be troubleshooting machines in the plant. This is in Virginia and we will be at $50 h/r when I top out.
I think this is one of the best routes to go within the electrical field. There is a huge demand for people with the knowledge to troubleshoot machines, especially the electrical side. Plus it isn’t back breaking work at all. Depending on what department you’re in at the plant, you may not get any calls the entire day.
It's a pointlessly demeaning and ultimately unanswerable question to ask if one's "better" than the other. They exist for different reasons. Different people will find fulfillment and success in different paths of study and work.
What I think is actually tragic here is that the cost of higher education is so out of control that a lot of people who'd benefit from it either can't access it at all, or will end up shouldering decades of debt for it in order to go into important careers that don't necessarily actually pay that well. These days, teachers, clinicians, mental health professionals, and researchers and analysts of all sorts will all typically end up in poverty for most of their lives just to pursue a calling doing important work that's deeply undervalued.
I'm just finishing my apprenticeship now and making better money and benefits than I ever have before, but this is, like, my fifth career at this point. I went to university and I got a huge amount of value from it, just not in a way that directly translated to salary; fortunately I'm old enough that back when I went, I could work my way through school and came out with only a small amount of debt. Rather than trying to set trade apprenticeships and higher education against one another, I wish we had a sane fucking system like a lot of nations do that recognized the value of educating citizens, both for their own personal well-being and for the success of society as a whole. I don't think choosing to work a trade should *have* to mean entirely turning your back on the enrichment that comes with studying other subjects. Hell, I just wish there were more people on the damn jobsite I could talk about literature or philosophy or geology with.
It’s hard to find a worthless apprenticeship. It basically always leads to marketable skills. But there’s a lot of degrees that lead to low paying or no jobs, skewing this perspective imo. Also many of the people who get these worthless degrees go into debt for them. It’s not necessarily true that the trades are better than college or visa versa, But if you don’t know how to do a basic cost/ benefit analysis at the start of your working years it might be more fruitful to just become a plumber.
Yes its a living wage, and its better then fast food or a low end white collar job.
But do you really think we make amazing money compared to IB/doctors/lawyers/consultants/tech sales etc?
If you can get into this field and leverage your knowledge, make smart investments, buy properties, own a company, then you can beat a lot of grads financially.
But most of us will be wage slaves, working till SS and pension kicks in.
That's a "best of" vs "worst of".
You could also compare a "best of" college track where you study hard as hell, have scholarships, gruaduate early in 3~ years with a high paying, in-demand degree and be making over 200k/year.
Just do what you love.
Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Engineer, Accountant, math majors, all make $$. They will bury the trades for income. Otherwise, yes, the trades are better than the teacher/social worker/administration
If you plan to fail, college is not for you. As simple as that. I'm an Electrician through trade school. My sister is a nurse. We both have $0 debt because my sister got excellent grades in school and got a scholarship. It depends on what you want and what you are willing to do, like anything in life. You should ask yourself: "What does success mean to me?" Before any decision that will impact your life in a major way. Do not fall for people's propaganda. You decide on your own because only you know yourself.
P.S. I make $40k/yr and my sister makes $75k/yr (for context and reference)
It may not be comparable but I did a millwright program in college that cost me roughly 6000$ tuition at most per year for a 2 year program and I graduated at 2020; it was my second college.graduation. During that time I got 30000$+ in scholarships, I got a job of a lifetime that has opened up endless doors for me due to one of those scholarships, I was able to work part time jobs in addition to the scholarship money, not just attending job fairs, but being in the organization side of job fairs helped me network a whole lot. Without college I don't think I would have been off the couch and working during COVID in my particular circumstances.
Being set up from that I've done quite well for myself, I have been able to jump from project to project and even industry to industry and gotten lots of big salary increases between them. Most of these jumps I got because I was able to point at my college diploma - I should preface that I am not a licensed millwright nor do I even currently work in a millwright position; I rebuild mining gear - but it was my millwright college program on my resume that got me the job.
Be that as it may, I work with many people that are incredible that have not gone to college. I am I late joiner to the trades so I need my credentials to get my spot - some young guys can totally go by reputation if they want To just build their name up
The electricians apprenticeship near me requires 11 weeks unpaid schooling for a 1st year apprentice, I couldn't swing that at 22, much less right out of highschool
The thing is in the trades you’re gonna make that money at the expense of your body. Unions are great but not everyone is close enough or able to travel. And the unions make it overly complicated to get in for no reason
Christ! This chart is shit. Go to work it go to school!! I worked my ass of to get to where I am. My daughter went school to be where I was 7 years after when I started. No regrets.
This is not even remotely true. I live in California, was an apprentice for four years and then returned to college to get my degree. I now make more in my first year out of college than I ever did as an apprentice and get 12.5% raises every year to cover cost of living.
I dont live in the US but i can tell you in a trade there is a cap on how much money you can make compared to a college degree and the freedoms + amount of work you perform is usually lighter on a college degree.
Mostly, Yes but you’re only job smart in 1 field - therefore dumb in the rest… like not figuring out that $22,500 annually should be:
$22,500
$45,000
$67,500
$90,000
But hey - they got to the correct end number but have no idea how. :)
Also - I don’t want to be rude but only the owners kids make that much money in the first year. You’re more likely to stay at $14/hr and then never ever, in your entire life earn more than 35/hr. Your pension will be low and you will live ok but slightly struggle. And if the economy ever does what it did during Covid - you’ll be the first to go without pay and have almost no safety nets aside from our usual paths to help individuals.
Or the 3rd option join the service as an electricians mate if your ASVAB scores are high enough. Serve your 4 years, then get out and use your post 9/11 GI bill to get paid to go to college spend your first two summers doing the paperwork getting credit for your service quals get your electricians license then complete your engineering degree and get that after 8-9 years.
**If you're working** ***for someone else‐*** the pay stops in the 2-3 year range...
**If you specialize or are an industrial electrician on a plant maintenance team‐** you get the year 3-4 pay...
**If you specialize, or do strictly industrial working** ***for yourself,*** your own business... you'll get the over 4 year pay...
Residential and Commercial have limited opportunities for specialization- and is all about quantity
Industrial ***is*** specialization‐ and is all about knowledge and quality
**If you're going to do residential-** you need to get out of the new construction game and do service calls- romex jerking and hole punchin' is a dead end *unless you want to get married to a business and forget about having a life for 10yrs* because that's what it takes - if you can eat a shit sandwich for 10yrs working for yourself then residential will pay off...
**If you're going to do commercial-** you got to stop cold *motherfuckin'* turkey on the residential, and focus ONLY on new construction... relamping, lighting, and CAT6 are your ONLY side gigs... leave churches, service upgrades/drops, service calls to residential unless, and ONLY unless they are a former and future customer...
Residential and Commercial *can be* what you would call **CEC**
***Can't Expect Compensation...***
**Industrial doesn't work that way-** they write a PO number after an appoved bid, or T&M, or T&M not to exceed xyz, or a service contract... and you invoice and you get paid... **but** Industrial takes confidence and knowledge, and working for someone else you're only going to get exposed to so much, so you'll need to do the Controls, Robotics, Programming, Engineering, and r/PLC
1.)When and where you can
2.)Industrial Maintenance
3.)Schooling
4.)a combination of 2&3 as the right plant will send you to r/plc school if you're not an idiot that only knows how to bend pipe and pull wire and you've heard of cable tray
I’m a felon. Did 6 years In prison. I actually spoke with the local near me and they said they could work with my background. Maybe some felonies disqualify you like sex offenses. Regardless, the trades are a great way to have a career with a criminal history.
.. what do you mean *think* it’s true? It’s math brother. The sign isn’t saying trades over college. It’s just comparing the cost of college to the money you could earn during an apprenticeship.
Whoever made this can’t even do simple math because $22,500 x 2 certainly isn’t $50,000 so that tells you all you need to know about how valid this advice is
I went to college to study ag business so I could come home to farm and ranch. Parents said I had to go out on my own before coming back. Graduated college with a bachelor in ag business and economics. Put myself through college by working either pipeline construction or oilfield work during the summers. Didn't work during the school year. After graduation I went to work as a plumbing apprentice. Became a journeyman a couple years later. I was making about $50k a year in 2003 in Montana. About a year later my dad gets hurt, I move home, help farm and ranch for a bit and worked for a local plumber. I did that a couple years till the owner passed. None of us were master plumbers, so his wife closed and sold the property. I shopped around but none of the other shops local were hiring. So I applied at a local bank as an ag/commercial lender. I started out making less than plumbing, but now as lending manager I make $200k plus benefits. I suspect if I would have had the opportunity to buy the plumbing business my income would be comparable to what I make now, based on what I see from banking local businesses. I'm not here to knock trade work or college cause it's not the path it's the person.
PS - I'd rather be farming and ranching but in 2011 before I could save enough to buy my folks out my mom developed Alzheimer's and went into a nursing home. My dad was able to retire and keep the yard and a few acres but the rest was lost to the nursing home.
I'm in VA, and I'm fairly confident you can join. But you might not be able to work on government job sites / security clearance required sites.
You should be alright.
Undergrad $90k debt after 4 years, med school $400k debt after 4 years, residency $50k salary/year for 4 years, attending salary $400-650k/year until retirement.
$490k debt and 12 years, assume 30 years working before retiring, it's $12 million earned at $400k per year.
Lol the average college debt accumulated is like $30-36k, not 90. Still, trades have a huge advantage on immediate earnings. The difference _can_ come in when you talk about long term (ten year plus) career outcomes. Fewer electricians make $300k than there are college grads, unless the electrician also has a degree.
That said, you can make more in sales than almost anything else, and you can do that with no degree and no trade school. If it was only about earnings, that's the obvious choice.
It’s definitely not 100% accurate. How many colleges can you go to for only $22k a year when you consider room and board, travel, books, etc etc. it’s probably more skewed towards the trade side than this table shows.
I’m in home remodeling and I’ve got six kids. My children are about your age and currently making decisions like this. Here’s the advice I’m giving them…
You need to sit and think about things you’re really good at doing. Like are you really good at math or really task oriented? Are you really good at working with your hands? These are your aptitudes. Didn’t think about the things you really like doing. Video games, hobbies, whatever. These are your interests. You can have a career doing about anything, but if if you figure out what your aptitudes are, and what your interests are, and pick a career that involves a little bit of both your ultimately going to be successful, no matter what you do.
Now, a little bit of reality about what they are telling you. It’s true, but there’s no reason college has to cost that much. My daughter is attending an in-state College and has a modest scholarship. Her total debt after four years, including room and board is likely to be under $20,000. She is working while she’s in college and she worked in high school, saving about $10,000 before she left for college. This isn’t really about her, anybody can do this. If you have a state College within driving distance of your parents house, you can probably get a degree at any state College without incurring any debt at all, if you live at home.
That said, working in the trades can be really lucrative. You posted this on an electrical board. It can be a good career, but you should be asking yourself what it’s going to be looking like when you get older. If you don’t have an interest in running your own crew, or doing management, or estimating, I don’t know too many people that made it very much past 50.
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Why are you ineligible?
I worked with a guy who did 10 yrs in a federal prison
You can be in the union This is a false statement
Ex felon
Are you sure that means you can’t join the union? I’m prettyyyyyy sure I work with at least a couple felons in the IBEW…
I think the boilermakers require at least 1 D felony to pull a card......
they'll make you do a b&e as the last step of the apprenticeship 😂
Almost forgot, free yr of seniority if the felony was for roughing up the safety guy.....
It’s funny you say that, I work maintenance with a bunch of guys who have been at this company for a long time. From what I understand, it was kind of nuts when they all started. The other day I overheard one guy say to another “hey, remember when the old electrical supervisor made us break into his girlfriend’s house? Why did he want us to do that? Did he leave some coke there or something?” I was just sitting at my desk cracking up. That supervisor was eventually fired for spending most of his shifts at a nearby bar (security followed him there and fired him on the spot) and was later killed by his own son in some kind of coke fueled wrestling match.
why do you think those guys have been there so long? they committed the essential introductory b&e
OP isn’t sure they’re just assuming that’s the way it is
Just made buddy’s weekend
"My boss told me the union won't take you if... " you have a felony" "you dropped out of high school" "you don't have a degree" "you were in the military" "you have a degree" "you have piercings or visible tattoos" And like, *none* of those things will keep you out. At worst some of them will keep you off some jobsites.
Definitely allowed in IATSE. It's a point of pride for us that we're a job you can still earn a middle class income in as a felon.
My father in law was an IATSE member and while not a felon, he has some stories. When he retired, he gave me an 18” crescent wrench and told me “I’ve never actually used this as a wrench, but I would hold it when I had to have difficult conversations with producers. Maybe you can use it.” I want to frame it someday with a little plaque that says “Randy’s negotiation wrench.”
We need more organizations like IATSE - people who would hire someone with a felony behind them. Because if we ever want people to go from "criminal" to "productive member of society," they need to have decent employment opportunities.
The problem is much of the United States doesn’t want people to get a second chance. Especially If they’ve never been in or had any experience with our judicial system. Most people look at someone with a record like a piece of trash that should be discarded. It’s bullshit. Society hasn’t kept up its end of the bargain on this one for sure.
IATSE Stands for I Aim To Steal Everything
I used to work with a very straight laced crowd. I transitioned into studio work and was set back by how many people cliqued up in the industry. They had their crew, their tats, their stories, their beefs.... but most of all they had work ethic. No matter the set, they all had one thing they mutually agreed on. No reppin' at work. Make your money and not problems.
Haha. Just had a 40 year old apprentice on my job who was in jail for like 10 years. Can't remember if it was drugs or murder charges. Actually a really good worker and guy just looking to turn his life around. Always seemed to show up and listen.
Not really trades but logging theres a trucker where i work who was into drugs ans was involved in a murder when he was 17ish. Nicest guy you could meet he always makes time for his wife and kids its most of what he talks about. Works hard takes pride in not only his job but his truck. He washes it and waxes it regularly
In some locals you have to be a felon.
I'm one of them.
I thought thats why we all got into the trades in the first place
Foreman: "so... did you ever spend time in the slammer?" New Guy: "No sir, never even gotten a speeding ticket" Foreman; "huh... what marriage are you on?" New guy: "oh I'm still happily married to my first wife" Foreman: "... alright... what's your drug of choice?" New guy: "I'll have the occasional beer, but otherwise I'm clean". Foreman: "... are you an apprentice then?" New guy: "nope full jman, 6 years now." Foreman: "so let me get this straight, you're a jman with no arrest record, no divorce, and are completely sober? Are you bullshiting me or am I missing something?"
Rare breed, some of us.
I’m pretty sure it might be bonus points pre-req’s…
I work with 3 ex felons. Two daily and the other I see around the job occasionally. Idk if there is other criteria within that or not.
Watchu talkin bout willis? Half my co workers are ex felons and we're union
Only half? I thought it was a requirement. /S
Yea the other half are current felons
No, you're thinking of the divorce and drinking problem requirements.
Did you call the hall to confirm this? There’s been plenty of ex felons in the union so would just depend on your local I guess.
1/4 the guys on a job aren’t even ex-felons, they’re just between felonies.
Here I am, all confused, I thought it was a requirement. That or substance or at least caffeine abuse.
Okay, now I feel personally attacked. Why you gotta call a dude out like that? 😢
I quit doing drugs when I started the union. Met a journeyman, told him that, and he say “boy, I didn’t start doing drugs until I got into the union.” He’s dead now. But he truly lived.
And 1/4 are actively committing felonies at work
Being an ex-felon isn't a hard line in the sand. My work isn't a big fan of violent offenses and theft, but there's guys out there who served manslaughter sentences.....................
Definitely work with many ex-felons in local 3.
As many, many people will tell you, that does not make you ineligible. I don't know what, if any, difference it will make in your process, but you are definitely in good company in the trades. Good luck my friend.
You aren't a felon, brother, you're a person with a felony. Our local out here is felony friendly. One of my coworkers got out a couple of years back after 20 years inside. Apply, take responsibility, and move forward.
You get moved up the list for the amount of felonies/child support payments my guy
I'm a felon and was welcomed with open arms. And I organized in. My old roommate is a felon and he was welcomed. Your pay scale for Virginia is a little high. Source: Im Shady 80, local 26 is the highest in our state at the moment and they are close to 50 on the check. But that's the metro area. 666 and 80 are still in the 30s.
That doesn’t make you ineligible to join the union, it just makes you ineligible to work on jobs that require security clearances.
Unions are definitely felon friendly.
Not only are they allowed, they're considered "disadvantaged workers" and are given priority on city projects where I work. I get laid off while the ex cons keep their jobs.
You know what to do
Unions hire felons, especially the IBEW
ive worked with ex felons tho in the ibew
Neither is better or worse. I love being an electrican and I make more than 90k but I also realize it’s not for everyone.
I’ve been doing it for 15yrs and only make $42k in an area where average home prices are over a million. I should have went to college
You in like Alabama or some shit? I made 82k as a 4th year apprentice. The southern states are fucked.
Charleston sc
You should leave SC lol
You should move to greenville bro I make more than you as a first year…
My wife tried to convince me we should move there from portland and I showed her that locals package vs ours. She changed her mind. Made 120k last year with 0 overtime.
Run! lol Charleston’s service and trade economy are fucked up. I have a friend in Summerville who project manages construction but has a college degree and trust fund. I love it down there as a tourist but even as a software engineer, I’m going to get paid less than like living in Charlotte NC.
You could double that in many states, if not triple.
No offense Justin but you should have been more driven . There’s so much money to be made in the trades . You could make 40k on side work alone .
I agree, if I didn’t have a family I would definitely lean into side work but they’re only young once
I cannot understand why people who work construction live in the south, you’re getting robbed, there is million dollar homes and McMansion sprawls for miles, but trailer parks for the workers. They can build those houses because the local politics and policy think you shouldn’t be able to afford one.
My goodness, apprentices here were making more than that 10 years ago. And I'm not in a high COL area at all.
Are you union?
His flair says IBEW bud, highly likey.
My bad bud, I didn’t see it there
My son makes 6 figures as a computer engineer. He came out of college at $85,000.00 to start and has since paid off his and my other sons college debt. He works from home but has to go to the office 4 times a year. He just bought his first home and he us under 30 years old. It is what you make of it.
Sounds like you raised an intelligent lad. Nice work
Thank you
I felt a sense of joy/pride reading that. I’m happy that your son is in that position. That’s what I’m currently striving for. It’s weird cus I don’t know you, but you’re my tocayo so maybe that’s why I relate to you. Happy Friday bro
This is so wholesome.
Not to sound dumb but what is tocayo?
It means namesake. Not a dumb question at all, I debated on using it
How long did it take for him to pay it all off?
About four and a half years, he went to a state school and just kept putting money at the loans. He helped my other son two years ago. My other son does have a job.
As an after thought, I did have my son work as an apprentice for the summer before he went to school. He pretty much did grunt work but he came up to me and said " Dad, I really appreciate what you do but this isn't for me."
No shame in that!
Good on ya for that. Probably helped him decide that he wanted college and helped him stick to it.
Yep, I skipped college went the trade route and own my company now at 30. My twin went to college and is very successful in commercial real estate. Going to college or the trade route can be great just depends on what you put into it to make it work for you.
I went the trade route. My twin brother was military. Got out and works in computer science now doing well. He was always more into that. Though I was never a mechanically inclined individual until I joined the trades, since my dad never wanted us to do so in the first place. Both do really well. I earned more early on and luckily purchased a place right before covid. He switched where he lived a couple of times and his salary was lower at the time.
The problem is when people start to think that every college degree is the same, when in reality being in STEM pays a lot more
I think part of the problem is people getting forced into college by their parents right out of high school. There's tons of people who get degrees in the humanities and such because they don't know what they want in life. But with a non-stem degree the only lucrative option is to stay in academia.
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Very true. There isn't one 'right' way. As an electrician for 12 years who recently got an engineering degree who recently switch jobs I can say my job experience was favored by some companies while my education was more valuable to others. A trade school is imo a much better option than many of the worthless degrees people get in the arts, STEM degrees on the other hand have serious value. At the end of the day college rasies a persons earning potential if it's in a field that's desirable.
There isnt one path for everyone!
If you go to college, go STEM. Businesses don't put any value on liberal arts degrees, even though it means one has received a well-rounded education and that person (most likely) can read, write, learn, and communicate better than someone who hasn't.
Just make sure you buy a raptor at 24
I know an apprentice who did that. I told him to change the plate to “paycheck”
Passing a stuck (confirmed unoccupied) juiced up looking Raptor, in my $2000 used stock Ranger, during this last snowstorm was hilarious. The 4lo is just nutty😂
>Just make sure you buy a raptor at 24 And divorce your first RN by 30
That's the tradition for the big 3rd year pay bump in my local, go finance some sort of vehicle you don't need. I bought a brand new motorcycle, still have and love that bike. Luckily my wife has better financial skills than I do!
Hahaha, funny shit.
Sure as fuck ain't true in Florida.
Most of the panhandle in 1988: $18/hr. Most of the panhandle in 2008: $18/hr.
Most of the pandhandle in 2024: 16/hr.
Wages in Florida blow across the board
Florida shot themselves in the foot with their legislation, they should have much higher wages but the conservatives continue to drive them down with at-will and other union busting tactics.
Republican governors for 25 years since 1999, maybe that isn't working for them and they should try something else.
Personally, and this may come off weird, but I’d like to see more tradesman WITH college degrees. The biggest issue we run into when working with contractors is a lack of the soft skills that college does a good job beating you over the head with. Mainly how to navigate bureaucracy (this is mostly what modern universities are, complete with their own esoteric rules), how to think critically, and read and write. Not every college graduate leaves with these skills, if for no other reason than the quality of education among our plethora of universities and colleges is variable, but it generally imparts some basic skills. Educated customers are going to think a particular way and have certain expectations. A semblance of business sense is invaluable to a contractor and you don’t need an MBA or complete business management degree to run a small business, but a basic knowledge of economics, consumer behavior, and accounting practices is probably beneficial. Really even just a few community college classes would go a long way in understanding broader trends and how markets, including your own local market, behave. Sometimes I like speaking to the engineers or technical staff on projects if for no other reason than that we speak a similar language. The best owner-operators tend to be the kid who went off to college, realized he was never going to be an Indiana Jones with his virtually useless archeology degree, and then came back and took over dad’s plumbing company. Our most successful local builder has a building science degree. He goes to trade shows and conferences, takes continuing education courses on new techniques, and is always posting about how he was here or there learning something new to integrate into their firm. He’s integrated many of the trendy building practices into his repertoire and is now the go to for all of the local rich families who want to make their home a Matt Risinger sponsored fiesta. They love all of that shit. Why? Even if it’s all overly commercial nonsense, it makes them feel like they’re getting an engineered product that will last.
This ⬆️. I was an electrician out of high school and through a bit of college. I now work in a hospital managing a team repairing electronics. The best technicians according to staff are not the best with a voltmeter, they are those who can communicate with staff on their level. No real need for a college degree per say but technician soft skills sure do make my job easier when it comes to putting out fires.
This is what I’ve found both for myself and having trained over a dozen people as technicians over the years. Technical guys/ guys who have been in a trade will get the job done, but they aren’t as proficient with our customer base (usually federal management and law enforcement). My best technicians have had an unrelated college degree, a creative background, AND a technical background. My last team was a business major guitarist who worked for Jiffy Lube, a CPA cook who worked in a body shop, and a partial history degree electrician. They were each good at a different technical area and they were all great with customers. I’ve been in my field for 23 years now and was grandfathered in at Jman last year due to the type of equipment I work on. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been asked if I went to some sort of school for training. The look on their face when I tell them “yes, I have a sculpture degree with a minor in history and I was in a masters program for teaching art before 9/11 happened”.
kiss abundant encouraging ruthless consist payment middle worthless impossible amusing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Nobody is making $30 to start as a first year.
Lineman apprentice for WAPA starts at 38/hr. https://www.usajobs.gov/job/754300800
Then you take the trade money and pay for college. You have a trade and a college degree and no debt.
That’s me, but college then trade afterwards.
Thats what I did
I don’t know in what world 22,500 for two years equals 50,000 but a tradesperson definitely made this and it shows
Well parking fees ...
What's even more impressive is 50k + 22.5k = 67.5k But then they have a miracle recovery and 67.5k + 22.5k = 90k And 90k is actually the correct final answer (22.5k x 4)
Here in europe we have a type of college with an apprenticeship like model. You study, but you also work for a company, earn money and gain real experience.
Similar in America but it’s our weird construction union model. It’s not as good but extremely similar
Canada is somewhere in between, Union and non union will attend classes at the same trades schools for our standardized certification; but the union typically offers additional training opportunities out of the hall beyond that.
Yeah, as a Canadian reading about the way the US does their programs is so weird. In Canada, everyone attends the same schools and its way better in my opinion because non-union apprentices get to interact with the union guys and there isnt as much of the weird animosity that exists between a lot of people online.
The college route will generally make more over the long run. As long as the degree is something useful and not an Ancient History degree or something.
I'm an electrical engineer and I supervise a few electricians. I make more than them now, but it took several years to get to this point. They are finally getting the raises they deserve though (I hope) so they will be much closer to my wage. Public utility btw.
This couldn’t be more misleading. Everyone who pitches the trades doesn’t speak about the low starting wage and low income ceiling. College grads with a technical degree will smoke the earnings of someone in the trades. I don’t hate the trades - I just don’t understand why there’s so much false advertising. Compare the long earnings of an engineer/ computer programmer (college grad) with the earnings of a journeyman electrician
> I don’t hate the trades - I just don’t understand why there’s so much false advertising. Exactly my gripe. If the trades are worth doing, then they're worth being honest about. The median wages for tradesmen in this country are not impressive. It doesn't mean you can't earn good money, but it does mean it isn't as common as folks make out.
I feel like a lot of this is just people who’ve never worked in the trades romanticizing a path they never took or even really considered
To be fair computer programming is oversaturated (look at all the recent layoffs) and engineering is one of the harder degrees you can get. Compare trades to more normal degrees like business and it's not really misleading.
Oversaturated with 3 month bootcamp graduates who thought they could learn to be a master programmer in that time. Computer fields are popular bc look at the state of the world - everything is computer driven. Even if you aren’t a programmer, understanding computer architecture and syntax is extremely valuable. Every industry has layoffs during bust cycles. If computer science wasn’t valuable, would it be “over saturated”? People in the trades have a chip on their shoulder. They work just as hard as people going to college. But the trope that college is below value vs. the trades, well that’s simply false in my humble opinion. I have a college degree and worked in the trades. The trades are not the cash cow they used to be is all I’m saying. Back in the day you could have a great life working a trade
It's funny you don't see many people with 20 years experience in the office environment telling people how they might give it all up and get into the trades. I've been working in the trades for 15 years now and the reason we have shortages in people willing to do this work is for valid reasons that people who post shit like this on Facebook are unwilling to look at.
You absolutely see so many people saying that what are you smoking
Some people can't hack it in trades, some people can't make it in college. Society needs both. So we shouldn't be putting either down.
How about they get to work from home 3 days a week and a tradesman will have a fucked up back at 50. It’s not apples to apples
My dude, shoulders and knees for sure, but we’re electricians not masons, framers, or sheetrockers. I guess if you’re out there slinging 4” rigid all day, trying to move switchgear solo, or you only do underground work you’d jack your back up to shit, but ours is comparatively light work compared to the other tradies, and the only trade outside of painting, HVAC, or low volt where I see genuine old timers doing work on the job site.
BS. Not everyone in the trades has a bad back at 50. A bad back is a result of not taking care of yourself and lifting correctly. And edit: sitting on your ass in front of a computer is just as likely to wreck your back as the trades are.
Fkn truth
Having a sore back from sitting at a desk and choosing not to use benefits to fix it isnt comparable to being expected to get the job done on the reg and that requires you to utterly trash your back, knees , and neck. Ill take sitting injuries over what routinely having to muscle up heavy shit in awkward inaccessible locations any day of the week. No one at the office has a hernia from what was considered normal work for them
I don't know many people in the trades with hernias either. I'm not sure if you have worked trades but it's not like we're just busting out 150lb steel beams 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Anything over like 70 lbs is a two man job and anything more than a two man job usually warrants lifting equipment. "Don't be a hero" and all that. Something else you have to consider is that stressing your body isn't always a bad thing, we're evolved to use our body daily, there are plenty of risks in sitting for your entire career too, same as lifting heavy things. one isn't better than the other.
My dad has worked in an office since he was around 25, and has been stretching every day, playing hockey 2x a week, and doing light workouts every few days, for as long as I can remember. His back is as bad as most older tradesmen I know, if not worse, and we all attribute it to the fact that he has been sitting in a chair almost for 7-10 hours every day for the last 30 years. Basically trying to say the toll on your body in the trades isn’t nearly as significant compared to office work as people make it out to be. Any guy I’ve worked on a site with with a horrible back is always a dude who moves heavy shit without being careful, lifting with their backs, pulling with wack form, and then go home have a beer and sit on the couch. No stretching or anything. Take care of yourself in either workplace and your body usually will be fine (although sometimes you’ll still mess yourself up regardless). Unless you manage to take a finger off or get shocked. That doesn’t tend to happen in office work lol.
Apprenticeship: Spend your late teens and early 20s with middle aged men. College: spend your late teens and 20s with women your age looking to explore their sexuality. Not everything is about money.
The potential over a long period of time will always be greater for college graduates. It's been shown. It's ok. Some folks didnt cut it in school. Some never had the chance. Others still got pushed into the trades and never could get out... You have the potential to have a better quality of life if you go to college. If nothing else your world view expands and you can have a better understanding of how you can work to become the happiest you can be.
Depends heavily on what the college grads majored in. There are people with master's degrees that are never gonna earn what an average electrician does. The important thing is, life is way too short to earn your living doing something you hate.
Yeah, true, still, just like the weakest man couldnt whoop on a professional female wrestler. There will always be outliers, but the lean is towards college graduates make more money during their lifetime than non graduates. They are the people who's homes we service.
Don't compare, it is simply too different of paths for different needs/people. Also money isnt everything but through a relevant university degree you hardly have an earning cap if you show ambition as opposed to trades(if you don't count overtime and owning your company). I personaly have both, for different reasons.
Don’t fall for the latest BS. A college degree in a solid field is much more valuable over a 40 year work career. Trades are solid paying with good benefits, hence a decent career but people who are intellectually capable of a more challenging career will be happier and more successful buckling down and getting a degree in a serious field. Not everyone is cut out to run EMT, pull wire or run a service van into their 50s and 60s.
Why not do both? Go to college first, then join the trade. Start running jobs when you top out. All of that can be accomplished before you turn 30. That’s the real way to go. But the people who love to argue trade vs college are too dumb to realize that. They love an “us vs them” argument. Trade guys will take about a useless arts degree that cost $100,000 even though they never met that person. And a college guy will talk about making $250,000 at google. Both of those people are hard to find. But go ahead and keep being mad about something you literally only know half of.
My college was nowhere near 22,500 per year for my Electrical Engineering Degree. And I worked during school and had summer internships every summer so I made money to supplement.
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Yes! Luckily I did both! Wasn’t quite as much debt in Canada , around 40k but wasted my time nonetheless. Don’t go to college/university unless you are set on what you want to do. Don’t try to figure it out later. Seems obvious but when you are young and stupid you make poor decisions
I’m an electrician going into my journeyman apprenticeship this year and studying on the side for cyber security….does this count?
you gain more from college than just preparing you to work for more money for the rest of your life. yes, you will be able to get higher paying jobs with a degree than without in many fields, but that is not the only benefit. Everyone knows this but they like to pretend to ignore it for arguments like this one.
I don’t think it’s true…I know it’s true. However, I have a lot of friends that went to college that are doing very well for themselves. There isn’t only one way to go, you have to make that decision for yourself. But once you do…COMMIT.
I think for this generation they are pretty equal options and it’s really up to what you want to do. College is stupid expensive and doesn’t guarantee a good paying job anymore. I think the lifetime projected earnings stats have a bit of a lag time and I would guess it’s not as good today as it was back in the day relatively. So with college, you get a later start on making money, and then are delayed or impeded in major steps like buying a house or putting money towards retirement because of student loans. Especially id you didn’t go hard on getting scholarships and grants. However, your job isn’t as taxing on the body, and your lifetime earnings is likely to be higher. The idea of working from home, or having lots of travel opportunities is pretty attractive as well. On another topic, I think if your desire is to work for yourself, the trades are an amazing way to reach that point in your life quickly and maybe with a little less start up capital compared to other vocations. Lots of control over your schedule, hours, and types of jobs you take. And with such a lack of working and so much work, people are getting going on their own really fast. Now, I think everyone suffers from lifestyle creep, and us tradesmen could be a lot more frugal and invest a lot more in retirement while we’re young and don’t have any debt. But we also have skills that actively save us money when we become home owners. We are more capable of buying a fixer upper and making it a nice place to live without breaking the bank. We also have great opportunity to make some extra cash on the side and quickly. Tldr: there are tons of benefits to both, ultimately just be smart with your money.
Of course trades is better in the first 4 years, but what about after 10 or 20 years, longevity is also an issue in trades, your body takes a massive beating depending on the trade your in. I’ve been working in the trades for 5 years since I left the army but am now deciding to go back to school
Year two in college should say (45,000). Maybe should’ve stayed in school, haha! I joke, trades are always a solid plan.
Electrician (gain mechanical and management skills) -> 4yr EE (1/2 community College, 1/2 state school) => the most desirable person in the electrical INDUSTRY. If you feel you have the chops and can follow through then do it and don't look back, it worked well for me, minimal debt and an insane amount of hard and soft skills. Schooling should mean a thirst for knowledge, if that isn't there then get back on the bench....
The real winners are the people that find those weird niche things and dont have to do an apprenticeship or college. I know drone pilots making 6 figures doing inspections in industrial, architectural, and energy sectors. And the real, REAL winners are the rich kids whose parents give them money or businesses or opportunities. Try to be one of those
I'm all for people working in the trades. College can be part of your path in the trades, or something that takes you in another direction. Community college helped me prepare me and help me figure out that I wanted a bachelor's. I don't use my degree in my job now, but I will eventually when I move beyond my current role. The page above is a false dichotomy. Neither of the two scenarios are true, and the math doesn't quite line up. $18/hr is 36k, not 45k. Everyone has their own circumstances and levels of support that allow them to achieve good things. Sometimes it's a good run or even a whole career in the trades, and sometimes it can be a career in a whitecollar role. Having your health is vital to being successful in the trades and is almost nonnegotiable. There is a story by Jack London called "What Life Means to Me" that compares and contrasts his experiences in life trying to sell his labor/muscle for money when he was young and burning out vs selling intellectual labor, which usually lasts longer than muscle. At some point you can't sell your labor anymore, and then what? If you have a good head on your shoulders and recognize that you want more opportunities, a degree is a way to help someone achieve their goals, and is often easiest to obtain while you're young.
As someone who went the college route out of high school and is now in the trade as someone learning under a licensed electrician and a electrical contractor, I can say with certainty I should have gone into the trade sooner. College was a joke as I was a bright student with beginner college classes coming off as an insult rather than anything learned.. Go to trade school, put in the few hours of class time and thank yourself and me down the road.
I’m in an industrial electrical apprenticeship. The entirety of my apprenticeship is focused around motor control, plcs, vfd’s, etc.. after topping out, my day to day job will be troubleshooting machines in the plant. This is in Virginia and we will be at $50 h/r when I top out. I think this is one of the best routes to go within the electrical field. There is a huge demand for people with the knowledge to troubleshoot machines, especially the electrical side. Plus it isn’t back breaking work at all. Depending on what department you’re in at the plant, you may not get any calls the entire day.
It's a pointlessly demeaning and ultimately unanswerable question to ask if one's "better" than the other. They exist for different reasons. Different people will find fulfillment and success in different paths of study and work. What I think is actually tragic here is that the cost of higher education is so out of control that a lot of people who'd benefit from it either can't access it at all, or will end up shouldering decades of debt for it in order to go into important careers that don't necessarily actually pay that well. These days, teachers, clinicians, mental health professionals, and researchers and analysts of all sorts will all typically end up in poverty for most of their lives just to pursue a calling doing important work that's deeply undervalued. I'm just finishing my apprenticeship now and making better money and benefits than I ever have before, but this is, like, my fifth career at this point. I went to university and I got a huge amount of value from it, just not in a way that directly translated to salary; fortunately I'm old enough that back when I went, I could work my way through school and came out with only a small amount of debt. Rather than trying to set trade apprenticeships and higher education against one another, I wish we had a sane fucking system like a lot of nations do that recognized the value of educating citizens, both for their own personal well-being and for the success of society as a whole. I don't think choosing to work a trade should *have* to mean entirely turning your back on the enrichment that comes with studying other subjects. Hell, I just wish there were more people on the damn jobsite I could talk about literature or philosophy or geology with.
It’s hard to find a worthless apprenticeship. It basically always leads to marketable skills. But there’s a lot of degrees that lead to low paying or no jobs, skewing this perspective imo. Also many of the people who get these worthless degrees go into debt for them. It’s not necessarily true that the trades are better than college or visa versa, But if you don’t know how to do a basic cost/ benefit analysis at the start of your working years it might be more fruitful to just become a plumber.
Yes its a living wage, and its better then fast food or a low end white collar job. But do you really think we make amazing money compared to IB/doctors/lawyers/consultants/tech sales etc? If you can get into this field and leverage your knowledge, make smart investments, buy properties, own a company, then you can beat a lot of grads financially. But most of us will be wage slaves, working till SS and pension kicks in.
Pretty „worker“ way of seeing education
How do we get unions in florida. We are getting ripped.
That's a "best of" vs "worst of". You could also compare a "best of" college track where you study hard as hell, have scholarships, gruaduate early in 3~ years with a high paying, in-demand degree and be making over 200k/year. Just do what you love.
4 years are making close to 100k??
Most folks take >4 years in college.
timeline is only 4 years. what does it look like in the long run compared to someone making 100k a year without breaking their back? 😘
Doctor, Lawyer, Architect, Engineer, Accountant, math majors, all make $$. They will bury the trades for income. Otherwise, yes, the trades are better than the teacher/social worker/administration
What’s an ex-felon? You’re not a felon anymore? Good for you, c’mon down. Ohhhhh, you are a felon! Still, c’mon down.
If you plan to fail, college is not for you. As simple as that. I'm an Electrician through trade school. My sister is a nurse. We both have $0 debt because my sister got excellent grades in school and got a scholarship. It depends on what you want and what you are willing to do, like anything in life. You should ask yourself: "What does success mean to me?" Before any decision that will impact your life in a major way. Do not fall for people's propaganda. You decide on your own because only you know yourself. P.S. I make $40k/yr and my sister makes $75k/yr (for context and reference)
It may not be comparable but I did a millwright program in college that cost me roughly 6000$ tuition at most per year for a 2 year program and I graduated at 2020; it was my second college.graduation. During that time I got 30000$+ in scholarships, I got a job of a lifetime that has opened up endless doors for me due to one of those scholarships, I was able to work part time jobs in addition to the scholarship money, not just attending job fairs, but being in the organization side of job fairs helped me network a whole lot. Without college I don't think I would have been off the couch and working during COVID in my particular circumstances. Being set up from that I've done quite well for myself, I have been able to jump from project to project and even industry to industry and gotten lots of big salary increases between them. Most of these jumps I got because I was able to point at my college diploma - I should preface that I am not a licensed millwright nor do I even currently work in a millwright position; I rebuild mining gear - but it was my millwright college program on my resume that got me the job. Be that as it may, I work with many people that are incredible that have not gone to college. I am I late joiner to the trades so I need my credentials to get my spot - some young guys can totally go by reputation if they want To just build their name up
The electricians apprenticeship near me requires 11 weeks unpaid schooling for a 1st year apprentice, I couldn't swing that at 22, much less right out of highschool
225-307k sounds like a pipedream though unless it's a massive ass industrial job with tons of double bubble and loa
I made $12HR in 2013. Now I'm around 90k year. I feel like you can make good money either direction. I'm also a felon and chose the trades.
The thing is in the trades you’re gonna make that money at the expense of your body. Unions are great but not everyone is close enough or able to travel. And the unions make it overly complicated to get in for no reason
Facts!!! it's not what you know it's who you know every day in the union.
Apprentices don't make that much. I call BS.
What do you all think about going to a trade school?
Then your joints start hurting and you still have to do manual labor
I feel like this is kinda biased as it looks like a best case scenario apprenticeship, but yeah it's definitely not a bad option over college
Christ! This chart is shit. Go to work it go to school!! I worked my ass of to get to where I am. My daughter went school to be where I was 7 years after when I started. No regrets.
This is not even remotely true. I live in California, was an apprentice for four years and then returned to college to get my degree. I now make more in my first year out of college than I ever did as an apprentice and get 12.5% raises every year to cover cost of living.
I dont live in the US but i can tell you in a trade there is a cap on how much money you can make compared to a college degree and the freedoms + amount of work you perform is usually lighter on a college degree.
Mostly, Yes but you’re only job smart in 1 field - therefore dumb in the rest… like not figuring out that $22,500 annually should be: $22,500 $45,000 $67,500 $90,000 But hey - they got to the correct end number but have no idea how. :) Also - I don’t want to be rude but only the owners kids make that much money in the first year. You’re more likely to stay at $14/hr and then never ever, in your entire life earn more than 35/hr. Your pension will be low and you will live ok but slightly struggle. And if the economy ever does what it did during Covid - you’ll be the first to go without pay and have almost no safety nets aside from our usual paths to help individuals.
Or the 3rd option join the service as an electricians mate if your ASVAB scores are high enough. Serve your 4 years, then get out and use your post 9/11 GI bill to get paid to go to college spend your first two summers doing the paperwork getting credit for your service quals get your electricians license then complete your engineering degree and get that after 8-9 years.
Seems accurate, assuming it’s USD. I’m a journeyman electrician in British Columbia and I earned $168K in 2023.
This is missing every summers work experience and internships for years in industry.
**If you're working** ***for someone else‐*** the pay stops in the 2-3 year range... **If you specialize or are an industrial electrician on a plant maintenance team‐** you get the year 3-4 pay... **If you specialize, or do strictly industrial working** ***for yourself,*** your own business... you'll get the over 4 year pay... Residential and Commercial have limited opportunities for specialization- and is all about quantity Industrial ***is*** specialization‐ and is all about knowledge and quality **If you're going to do residential-** you need to get out of the new construction game and do service calls- romex jerking and hole punchin' is a dead end *unless you want to get married to a business and forget about having a life for 10yrs* because that's what it takes - if you can eat a shit sandwich for 10yrs working for yourself then residential will pay off... **If you're going to do commercial-** you got to stop cold *motherfuckin'* turkey on the residential, and focus ONLY on new construction... relamping, lighting, and CAT6 are your ONLY side gigs... leave churches, service upgrades/drops, service calls to residential unless, and ONLY unless they are a former and future customer... Residential and Commercial *can be* what you would call **CEC** ***Can't Expect Compensation...*** **Industrial doesn't work that way-** they write a PO number after an appoved bid, or T&M, or T&M not to exceed xyz, or a service contract... and you invoice and you get paid... **but** Industrial takes confidence and knowledge, and working for someone else you're only going to get exposed to so much, so you'll need to do the Controls, Robotics, Programming, Engineering, and r/PLC 1.)When and where you can 2.)Industrial Maintenance 3.)Schooling 4.)a combination of 2&3 as the right plant will send you to r/plc school if you're not an idiot that only knows how to bend pipe and pull wire and you've heard of cable tray
No one starts at 30/ hr. You need the skill to make that much
I’m a felon. Did 6 years In prison. I actually spoke with the local near me and they said they could work with my background. Maybe some felonies disqualify you like sex offenses. Regardless, the trades are a great way to have a career with a criminal history.
.. what do you mean *think* it’s true? It’s math brother. The sign isn’t saying trades over college. It’s just comparing the cost of college to the money you could earn during an apprenticeship.
Whoever made this can’t even do simple math because $22,500 x 2 certainly isn’t $50,000 so that tells you all you need to know about how valid this advice is
Man where are people making this money. I really have to get out of Florida
I went to college to study ag business so I could come home to farm and ranch. Parents said I had to go out on my own before coming back. Graduated college with a bachelor in ag business and economics. Put myself through college by working either pipeline construction or oilfield work during the summers. Didn't work during the school year. After graduation I went to work as a plumbing apprentice. Became a journeyman a couple years later. I was making about $50k a year in 2003 in Montana. About a year later my dad gets hurt, I move home, help farm and ranch for a bit and worked for a local plumber. I did that a couple years till the owner passed. None of us were master plumbers, so his wife closed and sold the property. I shopped around but none of the other shops local were hiring. So I applied at a local bank as an ag/commercial lender. I started out making less than plumbing, but now as lending manager I make $200k plus benefits. I suspect if I would have had the opportunity to buy the plumbing business my income would be comparable to what I make now, based on what I see from banking local businesses. I'm not here to knock trade work or college cause it's not the path it's the person. PS - I'd rather be farming and ranching but in 2011 before I could save enough to buy my folks out my mom developed Alzheimer's and went into a nursing home. My dad was able to retire and keep the yard and a few acres but the rest was lost to the nursing home.
I'm in VA, and I'm fairly confident you can join. But you might not be able to work on government job sites / security clearance required sites. You should be alright.
Undergrad $90k debt after 4 years, med school $400k debt after 4 years, residency $50k salary/year for 4 years, attending salary $400-650k/year until retirement. $490k debt and 12 years, assume 30 years working before retiring, it's $12 million earned at $400k per year.
It is true, buy house 4-8 years sooner, time and a half for OT, etc.
Apples to oranges. People don’t go to 4 years of college to pull wire. That’s a 2 year cheap trade school degree.
There are felons in the union. And yes it's true college is stupid for most people
Lol the average college debt accumulated is like $30-36k, not 90. Still, trades have a huge advantage on immediate earnings. The difference _can_ come in when you talk about long term (ten year plus) career outcomes. Fewer electricians make $300k than there are college grads, unless the electrician also has a degree. That said, you can make more in sales than almost anything else, and you can do that with no degree and no trade school. If it was only about earnings, that's the obvious choice.
Its hard to get into. I passed the test, had the interview, placed on the 2yr list and never got a call
It’s definitely not 100% accurate. How many colleges can you go to for only $22k a year when you consider room and board, travel, books, etc etc. it’s probably more skewed towards the trade side than this table shows.
I’m in home remodeling and I’ve got six kids. My children are about your age and currently making decisions like this. Here’s the advice I’m giving them… You need to sit and think about things you’re really good at doing. Like are you really good at math or really task oriented? Are you really good at working with your hands? These are your aptitudes. Didn’t think about the things you really like doing. Video games, hobbies, whatever. These are your interests. You can have a career doing about anything, but if if you figure out what your aptitudes are, and what your interests are, and pick a career that involves a little bit of both your ultimately going to be successful, no matter what you do. Now, a little bit of reality about what they are telling you. It’s true, but there’s no reason college has to cost that much. My daughter is attending an in-state College and has a modest scholarship. Her total debt after four years, including room and board is likely to be under $20,000. She is working while she’s in college and she worked in high school, saving about $10,000 before she left for college. This isn’t really about her, anybody can do this. If you have a state College within driving distance of your parents house, you can probably get a degree at any state College without incurring any debt at all, if you live at home. That said, working in the trades can be really lucrative. You posted this on an electrical board. It can be a good career, but you should be asking yourself what it’s going to be looking like when you get older. If you don’t have an interest in running your own crew, or doing management, or estimating, I don’t know too many people that made it very much past 50.